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Feuerphoenix
2016-05-19, 12:02 PM
Hey guys,

Some Time ago I found a very AWSOME Oath on the Internet (Oath of the ethernal flame). Now I already changed it a little bit, by changing the spelllist, and I came to the idea, of conjuring a phoenix als a lv 5 spell. Now the problem is, I found a homebrew monster that is CR 8, an das thus too high to summon. Now the question is, how can I change or to a powerlevel of an elemental, without destroying its characteristics? Any ideas?

Link to the phoenix: https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Young_Phoenix_(5e_Creature)

Ninja_Prawn
2016-05-19, 01:37 PM
I disagree that that is a CR 8 creature; it looks more like CR 6 to me.

You could soften it significantly just by cutting the number of hit dice and reducing the damage of the 'fire form' ability.

Flashy
2016-05-19, 01:49 PM
My calculations actually put that creature at CR 6.

Offensive CR: 5

Average DPR from Multiattack 23, modified to 34 after adding the assumed 11 DPR for reskinned Elemental Body Feature. Pegs creature at offensive CR 5
Attack bonus +6. Attack bonus appropriate for CR 5, no change to offensive CR.

Defensive CR: 7

Starting HP 110, modified to 165 HP after accounting for resistances and immunities (I called it a 1.5 multiplier). Pegs creature at defensive CR 7.
Default AC 13. Add 2 to effective AC for Magic Resistance feature. Modified AC 15 appropriate for CR 7, no change to defensive CR.


So if you want it to be CR 5 take 20 HP off (new HP total 90) and you're firmly CR 5 across the board.

Edit: Literally Ninja'd

Ninja_Prawn
2016-05-19, 01:55 PM
My calculations actually put that creature at CR 6.

Offensive CR: 5

Average DPR from Multiattack 23, modified to 34 after adding the assumed 11 DPR for reskinned Elemental Body Feature. Pegs creature at offensive CR 5
Attack bonus +6. Attack bonus appropriate for CR 5, no change to offensive CR.

Defensive CR: 7

Starting HP 110, modified to 165 HP after accounting for resistances and immunities (I called it a 1.5 multiplier). Pegs creature at defensive CR 7.
Default AC 13. Add 2 to effective AC for Magic Resistance feature. Modified AC 15 appropriate for CR 7, no change to defensive CR.


It's funny; I came to that conclusion by a completely different calculation. I give it nothing for the elemental resistance/immunity; I usually don't unless a creature has at least three of them, and it doesn't take a genius to guess that fire won't hurt a phoenix. However, I do give it +2 AC because it has a flight speed and can deal damage at range. DCR: 5.

And I give it 22 DPR for the fire aura, because that's what the DMG says in its example: assume one character stands next to it and one hits it with a melee attack (likely the same character). OCR: 7

Same result, though. As-written, this is over-CR'd.

Flashy
2016-05-19, 02:02 PM
It's funny; I came to that conclusion by a completely different calculation. I give it nothing for the elemental resistance/immunity; I usually don't unless a creature has at least three of them, and it doesn't take a genius to guess that fire won't hurt a phoenix. However, I do give it +2 AC because it has a flight speed and can deal damage at range. DCR: 5.

And I give it 22 DPR for the fire aura, because that's what the DMG says in its example: assume one character stands next to it and one hits it with a melee attack (likely the same character). OCR: 7


Yours is probably the better calculation, honestly. I had forgotten the adjustment for fly speed, and classing the resistance and immunity as effectively the same as three resistances is more than likely too generous. Not that it really matters since we agree, but you've probably done a better job accounting for the features that are actually power sources for the statblock.

In the end I suspect that either reducing the aura to 1d10, reducing the AC to 11, or cutting 20 HP off the statblock would be sufficient. It's really just a hair over CR 5 as it is.

Feuerphoenix
2016-05-19, 05:46 PM
Thanks guys, I think a cut off the HP Sounds very sufficient. How about the Range attack in combination with the flying speed? Is that still sufficient for CR5?

Flashy
2016-05-19, 07:11 PM
Thanks guys, I think a cut off the HP Sounds very sufficient. How about the Range attack in combination with the flying speed? Is that still sufficient for CR5?

The ranged attack isn't a serious problem. 3d6 damage isn't much to write home about, it can't use it more than once a turn, and the range is extremely limited. I can't imagine it being a regular problem, especially since many player casters can access the Fly spell well before this creature could be summoned. A 30' range increment is pretty hard to cheese.