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Neek
2007-06-26, 03:31 PM
I never really got it when I first picked up D&D 3.0, and I still don't get it when 3.5 was released. Why is Track a feat, and not a skill? It still requires a skill, however, to make it worth the feat expenditure, you still have to dump skill points into it. Most other feats don't allow you to convert the use of one skill for another, but I'd glad to be corrected on this issue.

It seems that tracking ought to be an amalgamation of multiple skills; Search, Knowledge (Nature), Profession (Detective or Hunter), &c.

1). Is it a feat because it's meant to be a class-restricted ability? If that's so, then class-restricted skills that belong to the Thief should also be granted in feats (such as Use Magical Device), but that's a throw-back to 2nd edition AD&D where there was a huge divide between Non-Weapon Proficiencies (which were mainly ported over as Profession or Craft skills to begin with) and class abilities (such as larceny, sneaking, deciphering languages, and using magical items could only be gained from being a rogue).

2). Is it a feat because tracking is an ability that requires no background training, only a special knack or an eye for it? If that's the case, then why does it rely on a Survival skill check? As well, how do wilderness hunters cope with tracking their prey? Do they take a level dip in Ranger, or pick up the feat?

How do animals cope? The SRD seems to just give them the Feat as a bonus feat, even though their HD would dictate wouldn't already say so.

I don't find it unreasonable to convert Track into either an ability that uses the various skills mentioned above, or its own skill with synergy bonuses from the above. This post, however, isn't meant to argue my stance, but rather how you feel (as DMs or as players) about the two points I brought up (feel free to tack on your own), or how you treat Track as a feat and rationalize it, but also--why did WotC decide to make tracking a feat-unlockable ability, and not purely a skill based ability?

Delaney Gale
2007-06-26, 03:37 PM
I would surmise it has something to do with difficulty. I, as a suburban teenager, could track a fox through the snow (untrained Survival check to follow a trail... maybe my WIS is better than I give myself credit for). A wilderness hunter would be able to follow a game trail- it's not a very high Survival check. A more difficult check (like a cold trail, over water, etc.) would require specialized knowledge and training in tracking (a feat).

MeklorIlavator
2007-06-26, 03:59 PM
I think that the difficulty involved in the more difficult tasks would represent someone who had the skill as a "class skill" and was therefore able to make the check, not having a feat.

Delaney Gale
2007-06-26, 04:21 PM
I think that the difficulty involved in the more difficult tasks would represent someone who had the skill as a "class skill" and was therefore able to make the check, not having a feat.

Survival covers more than tracking- it also covers knowledge of ebidle plants, how to deal with harsh weather conditions, habits of predators you don't want to mess with and prey you might want to catch, how to tell if water is safe, etc. The Track feat could be expressed as an expansion of your Survival abilities. The best analogy I can think of is to tactical feats, like, say, Combat Panache. Without Combat Panache, you can do a lot of things with Bluff, Intimidate, and Tumble. With Combat Panache, you train in some specialized uses of those skills to make them more useful in combat.

Matthew
2007-06-26, 04:33 PM
There is no good reason, it is just an oddity of the game system. Track almost certainly has as much reason to be a Skill as Search. Survival is itself a throwback to (A)D&D Non Weapon Proficiencies - Wilderness Lore or Knowledge (Nature) would do just as well. Koga raised this point a month or so ago in the Homebrew Forum, most people agreed it was silly. Of course, there are Feats that allow you to use Skills in new ways, such as Leap Attack or Mounted Combat, so it's not that unusual. Personally, I prefer to treat Track as a separate Skill from Survival, Wilderness Lore or Knowledge (Nature) (though all three of those Skills I roll into one).

Delaney Gale
2007-06-26, 04:34 PM
Personally, I prefer to treat Track as a separate Skill from Survival, Wilderness Lore or Knowledge (Nature) (though all three of those Skills I roll into one).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Wilderness Lore : 3.0 :: Survival : 3.5?

Fax Celestis
2007-06-26, 05:01 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Wilderness Lore : 3.0 :: Survival : 3.5?

Wilderness Lore included things in 3.0 that Survival does not in 3.5.

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-26, 05:04 PM
Wilderness Lore included things in 3.0 that Survival does not in 3.5.

I was under the impression that the survival skilled included two different 3.0 skills (Wilderness Lore and Intuit Direction), in which case the reverse would be true.

Matthew
2007-06-26, 05:08 PM
Indeed, there is considerable overlap, but the Skill descriptions are slightly different. I chose to identify all three to highlight the overlap, which is fairly usual to Skill Systems. Check out Craft (Weapon Smithing) and Craft (Bowyer) to see another example. Weapon Smithing lets you make any weapon, even Cross Bows, except a Bow. Bowyer lets you make Bows. Stupid, but true.

[Edit] The properties of Intuit Direction don't appear to be subsumed in the Survival Skill entry.

Jasdoif
2007-06-26, 05:37 PM
Wilderness Lore included things in 3.0 that Survival does not in 3.5.Could you enlighten the curious and 3.0-lacking, such as myself, on these other things?




[Edit] The properties of Intuit Direction don't appear to be subsumed in the Survival Skill entry.There's this little bit hiding under "Special" in the skill description.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Survival, you can automatically determine where true north lies in relation to yourself.Was there more to Intuit Direction?

Matthew
2007-06-26, 05:53 PM
Nope that would be all there is to Intuit Direction, couldn't see it in Survival.

Wilderness Lore says this:


Use this skill to hunt wild game, guide a party safely through frozen wastelands, identify signs that owlbears live nearby, or avoid quicksand and other natural hazards.

I don't know if says the same in the 3.5 PHB Survival entry, it doesn't seem to in the SRD. Presumably Survival could be used in this way, but it doesn't appear to come out and say so in the SRD.

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-26, 06:19 PM
Use this skill to hunt wild game:

Get along in the wild. Move up to one-half your overland speed while hunting and foraging (no food or water supplies needed). You can provide food and water for one other person for every 2 points by which your check result exceeds 10.

Guide a party safely through frozen wastelands:

Gain a +2 bonus on all Fortitude saves against severe weather while moving up to one-half your overland speed, or gain a +4 bonus if you remain stationary. You may grant the same bonus to one other character for every 1 point by which your Survival check result exceeds 15.

Identify signs that owlbears live nearby:

Follow tracks (see the Track feat). This one is a stretch, but if you ignore the ELH, it works.


EDIT- all quotes from SRD.
Avoid quicksand and other natural hazards.

Keep from getting lost or avoid natural hazards, such as quicksand.

Matthew
2007-06-26, 06:26 PM
I'd say it was more than a stretch, since it requires Track to do, doesn't it? I didn't quote the full text to have it pulled apart piece by piece, I just quoted it because it is absent. The Owlbear signs are indeed the most conspicuous aspect.

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-26, 06:37 PM
I just quoted it because it is absent. The Owlbear signs are indeed the most conspicuous aspect.

Yeah, because this is going to come up. I seriously doubt this had a listed DC in 3.0 either.

Matthew
2007-06-26, 06:49 PM
Really? It's exactly the sort of thing that comes up in my games all the time. Oh well, different strokes. Yeah, the whole point of what I was saying is that the Survival Skill appears to be missing this description of what Wilderness Lore can do. It's no big deal, it's not a challenge, it's just a difference. Fax stated there was one, I'm looking to see what he means.

Jasdoif
2007-06-26, 07:25 PM
Yeah, the whole point of what I was saying is that the Survival Skill appears to be missing this description of what Wilderness Lore can do.OK, I can finally check the PHB, and it does indeed have a similar description.
Use this skill to follow tracks, hunt wild game, guide a party safely through frozen wastelands, identify signs that owlbears live nearby, predict the weather, or avoid quicksand and other natural hazards.It's worth noting you don't need the Track feat to find tracks, only to follow them. Heck, if the DC is 10 or less you don't even need the feat to follow the tracks.

Also worth noting that "predict the weather" is new.

Neek
2007-06-27, 09:46 AM
Indeed, there is considerable overlap, but the Skill descriptions are slightly different. I chose to identify all three to highlight the overlap, which is fairly usual to Skill Systems. Check out Craft (Weapon Smithing) and Craft (Bowyer) to see another example. Weapon Smithing lets you make any weapon, even Cross Bows, except a Bow. Bowyer lets you make Bows. Stupid, but true.

I think this is quite accurate, actually. Bowyering is a bit different than forging a sickle or a hammer, seeing as you have to treat, cure, and bend yew. Last I checked, Welsh longbows during the 12th-13th century took at least four years to manufacture. The properties that sit with the its manufacture are an entire different breed than what you need with forging metal weapons.

With that, though, there is overlapping. Fletching is the same as rock and metalworking, the latter falls under Weaponsmithing, which is all under Blacksmithing.

Or that Profession (Cook) and Craft (Pies) are also highly related--the latter just means you can make excellent pies and nothing else, though, but the principles are the same.

While feats do allow you use to skills for certain abilities, it doesn't quite much sense to allow a feat to allow you to use a skill as another, especially when the skill being used is generally understood to provide with you that ability. It's no more acceptable than a feat that lets you use Perform to play like a badass.

A simple fix would be to give Rangers Skill Focus (Survival) and Track under one of the things you can do with Survival, and allow Knowledge (Nature) as a synergy bonus, and have five ranks in Survival to provide a synergy bonuss to Profession (Hunter). Or at least, that's how I see it.

Otherwise, looking so far at this discussion, there's little sense as to why it's a feat and not a skill.

squidthingy
2007-06-27, 09:53 AM
Why is Track a feat, and not a skill?

Sorry if this has been said before but it's very simple. So everyone can't do it. Same reason for all the other feats, to personilize your character. Track as a feat makes it more of a unique and special skill, not just something anybody could do. If it was a skill it would probaly than be like use magical device, where only some classes can use it, as a feat the opprotunity is increased.

Matthew
2007-06-27, 10:09 AM
OK, I can finally check the PHB, and it does indeed have a similar description.It's worth noting you don't need the Track feat to find tracks, only to follow them. Heck, if the DC is 10 or less you don't even need the feat to follow the tracks.

Also worth noting that "predict the weather" is new.
Good stuff. So Survival is a combination of Weather Sense, Inuit Direction and Wilderness Lore.


I think this is quite accurate, actually. Bowyering is a bit different than forging a sickle or a hammer, seeing as you have to treat, cure, and bend yew. Last I checked, Welsh longbows during the 12th-13th century took at least four years to manufacture. The properties that sit with the its manufacture are an entire different breed than what you need with forging metal weapons.

With that, though, there is overlapping. Fletching is the same as rock and metalworking, the latter falls under Weaponsmithing, which is all under Blacksmithing.

Sure, but you're ignoring what Weapon Smithing encompasses. It can be used to build any weapon except for a Bow. It is a skill that allows you to make Spears, Swords, Cross Bows and all sorts of completely different weapons.
Bows don't take four years to make, but the wood does take a long time to season properly, but that is true of almost any wooden construct. The difference between making a Sword and a Bow is not greater than the difference between making a Sword and a Cross Bow. All three require quite different skills.


Sorry if this has been said before but it's very simple. So everyone can't do it. Same reason for all the other feats, to personilize your character. Track as a feat makes it more of a unique and special skill, not just something anybody could do. If it was a skill it would probaly than be like use magical device, where only some classes can use it, as a feat the opprotunity is increased.

Yes, it is a specialist skill, just like everything else Survival encompasses. That's the problem with a Skill this broad, where do you draw the line as to what it can and cannot do? It's fairly arbitrary.

Peregrine
2007-06-27, 11:00 AM
Track is a feat because, like all feats that don't just give a flat bonus to something, it lets you do something new or different. Power Attack lets you do something different with your BAB (apply it to damage), Track lets you do something different with your Survival skill (use it to follow tracks). :smallsmile:

Matthew
2007-06-27, 11:05 AM
Yes, which we already observed. However, there is no reason it couldn't be a skill of its own or subsumed into Survival without a need for a feat. It's a fairly arbitrary decision for it to be a feat and Weather sense not to be, if you see what I am saying.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-06-27, 11:14 AM
My guess is that it's a niche protection issue. Like a Rogue's trapfinding or Item Creation feats.

Tracking is useful, being "the guy who can track stuff" is a useful role in the party. Hence, feat.

Matthew
2007-06-27, 11:29 AM
I don't think so. In my opinion, it is much more likely to have been a result of inheritance from previous editions. Intuit Direction, Weather Sense, Wilderness Lore and Tracking were all Non Weapon Proficiencies. The only difference was that Tracking was a Bonus Proficiency for Rangers. Now it's a Bonus Feat. Very likely to have been the result of modelling the previous sytem with new rules.

Peregrine
2007-06-27, 11:31 AM
My guess is that it's a niche protection issue. Like a Rogue's trapfinding or Item Creation feats.

Tracking is useful, being "the guy who can track stuff" is a useful role in the party. Hence, feat.

Absolutely. Actually, Trapfinding is a very good parallel. It similarly expands a skill to allow detection of magical traps before setting them off. I can't think of any others right now (the item creation feats are a bit different, they don't actually need to have anything to do with the Craft skill at all), but I can imagine some possible homebrew inventions.

I guess what I'm saying is, it makes enough sense to me... I'm not so attached to it that I couldn't live with the system otherwise, but I don't agree with those who say it makes no sense.

nerulean
2007-06-27, 11:36 AM
Why is Track a feat and not a separate skill? Part of the reason could be that Survival as a skill is otherwise very low DC - it's very useful, but there's really not a lot of point taking many ranks in it, which could mean an effective loss in some other skill. Track could be added on after to mean that those ranks you put in become useful for something else later.

Why is it a feat and not a class ability? Heck if I know.

JellyPooga
2007-06-27, 11:46 AM
Or that Profession (Cook) and Craft (Pies) are also highly related--the latter just means you can make excellent pies and nothing else, though, but the principles are the same.

Mmmmm...Piecraft....



....if you put a certain brand of tomato or date based sauce on it would it become the author of pastry-based horror stories?

JEntropy
2007-06-27, 12:07 PM
I would surmise it has something to do with difficulty. I, as a suburban teenager, could track a fox through the snow (untrained Survival check to follow a trail... maybe my WIS is better than I give myself credit for). A wilderness hunter would be able to follow a game trail- it's not a very high Survival check. A more difficult check (like a cold trail, over water, etc.) would require specialized knowledge and training in tracking (a feat).

With all due respect, doesn't investing skill points reflect such training? The ability modifier represents your inherent "knack" for it, but the ranks represent your continued efforts in that area to learn and improve your skill. I don't see why tracking should be excluded, if nothing else you could make it a skill trick, using the CScoundrel platform.

GoblinJTHM
2007-06-27, 12:12 PM
when I DM I use track as a skill (wis), with DCs for most anything starting around 35 ranks. (no, this does not include footprints in a very dusty dungeon floor or thick mud.) I find as a skill it's powerful, so I play it as an invest now and it'll pay off later type thing. Also, the time for taking a natural 20 can be large compared to a regular roll, in the sense taking a natural 20 may allow you're prey to continue travelling possibly outdistancing you and also say, escaping you completely via water or something.