Extra Attack From Multiple Classes Fix

[Goober4473]

Obviously getting Extra Attack from two or more classes doesn't stack for very good reason, but I feel like level 5, and important level for most classes, shouldn't be a dead level if you multiclass between martial classes. So rather than let it stack, or simply let the dead level stand, I'm considering giving some other bonus instead.

My thought is that you should get something about equal to a warlock invocation, since a multiclass warlock that already has Extra Attack can take a different invocation in place of the bladelock extra attack invocation. In that vein, it seems like an extra fighting style would be appropriate.

What do you all think?

[Fighting_Ferret]

I'm against it... there is a cost to multi-classing...especially given that most of the classes are so front loaded. If you want to do something like this, go for it...I'm just expressing my opinion here.

[JNAProductions]

I don't think it's broken. Maybe a minor buff, like +4 HP?

[krugaan]

I don't think it's broken. Maybe a minor buff, like +4 HP?

That seems *really* minor.

+1 stat instead?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Seems fair to me.

[bid]

What do you all think?
You get whatever the DM is willing to give you.

I'm pretty sure a 5/5 dual martial is weaker than a pure 10. The DM could offer a better magic item to compensate.

[Spacehamster]

Just make it so if you are for example 2 fighter 3 barbarian you get extra attack since you have 5 combined full martial class levels. :)

[MrFahrenheit]

Just make it so if you are for example 2 fighter 3 barbarian you get extra attack since you have 5 combined full martial class levels. :)

But would you get a second extra attack, rage improvement or (throwing paladin in the mix) improved smite at CL 11?

I think there should be some sort of compensation too, but the equivalent of casters multiclassing into other classes with slot progression at loss of spells known at the highest level.

[Spacehamster]

But would you get a second extra attack, rage improvement or (throwing paladin in the mix) improved smite at CL 11?

I think there should be some sort of compensation too, but the equivalent of casters multiclassing into other classes with slot progression at loss of spells known at the highest level.

Nah thought mainly of getting that so very important for a full martial 2nd attack at level 5 if you got 5 full martial levels, I mean can´t give too much either cause
then MC starts to clearly outpace single class, I like that there is some cost to MC but I do feel you could slightly boost it especially if you MC some MAD classes, like let them
get the full 5 ASI´s even if they did not take the levels in such a way as in for example a 18 monk / 2 warlock would still get 5 ASI´s, would not make him overpowered or anything
but would be a nice boost.

[DivisibleByZero]

What do you all think?

I think that delaying Extra Attack is one of the prices to be paid for multiclassing, that's what I think.
It's a choice. If you don't want to delay it, then don't multiclass, or don't multiclass until after 5th level.


Just make it so if you are for example 2 fighter 3 barbarian you get extra attack since you have 5 combined full martial class levels. :)

In the playtest, if you multiclassed at all between 2 classes that both had Extra Attack, you gained Extra Attack when you reached 8th level, regardless of the class split. If you were a Fighter6/Barbarian1 (for example), you didn't have Extra Attack even though you had 5+ Ftr levels. Once you hit 8th level, then you got it.

[Malifice]

I think the +1 to a stat option is pretty good patch personally.

Also maybe an extra fighting style?

That would probably be perfect atually.

[bid]

I think that delaying Extra Attack is one of the prices to be paid for multiclassing, that's what I think.
It's a choice. If you don't want to delay it, then don't multiclass, or don't multiclass until after 5th level.
That's not what he's talking about.

If you get a second extra attack feature, for instance barbarian 5 / fighter 5...

[Malifice]

That's not what he's talking about.

If you get a second extra attack feature, for instance barbarian 5 / fighter 5...

If you gain the extra attack class feature, and you already have it from another class, you may instead select one of the following options:


A bonus proficiency of your choice
+1 to an ability score
An additional fighting style chosen from those available to fighters

[TurboGhast]

You could also let the character get a half feat without the stat boost it would normally provide instead, if you so desired.

[Naanomi]

While a dead level is unfortunate, I don't see it as much of a problem. Of the fixes presented, the +1 Stat seems the most reasonable to me.

I'm reluctant to hand out more fighting styles to characters that probably already have at least one (unless they are what... Monk/Barbarians?), takes some steam out of Champion Fighter (which doesn't need any steam removed)

Out of curiosity, what are people trying to make that are suffering so much from the dead levels?

[Grod_The_Giant]

But would you get a second extra attack, rage improvement or (throwing paladin in the mix) improved smite at CL 11?

I think there should be some sort of compensation too, but the equivalent of casters multiclassing into other classes with slot progression at loss of spells known at the highest level.
The biggest reason for multiclass spell slots is I think to make sure that you can still contribute to the full set of encounters. Your power doesn't really increase, but your endurance does. So for a martial, the equivalent would I guess be getting more rages, more ki, that sort of thing.

[DivisibleByZero]

That's not what he's talking about.

If you get a second extra attack feature, for instance barbarian 5 / fighter 5...

He asked what I thought.
Once again, I think that's the cost of multiclassing. If you get the same feature twice, sometimes only one of them counts.
Is he planning on doing that for multiclasses that both get to dodge as a bonus action?
Is he going to do that for multiclasses that both get Evasion?
The list goes on....
The possibility of redundant features is one of the costs of multiclassing. Working as Intended.

[Foxhound438]

While a dead level is unfortunate, I don't see it as much of a problem.

pretty much this, if you want to remove dead levels from 2 class builds you better give something relevant to rangers at level 1 and 6, since those are as dead as anything.

[DeAnno]

I like how many people are annoyed that dips are so common, and yet people are also unwilling to let the second level 5 in many combinations not be a dead level. :smallconfused:

I would personally be inclined to hand out a full ASI if I was going to be doing a lot of tinkering with the rules in the first place. Extra Attack might be the best Feat if it was a Feat instead of a class feature.

[Jarlhen]

To me this is one of those things that don't need to be patched. As far as I'm concerned this is in the same vein of allowing different spellcasters to combine their spell slots rather than just read off the general table. It's the price for multiclassing, don't need to give anyone anything.

[Gastronomie]

I have never seen a build in which a character goes over 5 levels in multiple martial classes. Not only because of how multiple Extra Attacks are meaningless under RAW, but also because it's generally the better idea to stop the dip at level 2, or 3, or 4, and go on progressing the "main class". Obviously because, most of the time, high-level abilities are stronger than mid-level ones (not always better than low-level ones, though). IDK about Aura of Protection and FOE SLAYER.

So, I wonder if this will ever be a problem.

That being said, if someone in my game actually does take over 5 levels in multiple martial classes, I as a DM would consider giving him a minor bonus of some sort to compensate. But it isn't something I will request to every single DM I meet - it's jut my personal style.

[Lonesomechunk44]

Meh, I don't know. it sucks to have a dead level, but think of it this way: Extra Attack is the ONLY feature that is a dead level, and its one level. So imo, just leave it be

[Goober4473]

Meh, I don't know. it sucks to have a dead level, but think of it this way: Extra Attack is the ONLY feature that is a dead level, and its one level. So imo, just leave it be

Honestly, I'd agree if the later levels were amazing. If getting level 6 barbarian and level 6 fighter gave some amazing combo, or level 7 ranger made any level 6+ monk incredible, then taking that dead level as a price is fine. You chose to multiclass to get something cool, you can stand to wait.

But that's not the case. The higher level martial abilities are generally no better when combined than if you just took a single class to higher level, and in many (re: most) cases, you're going to be worse off multiclassing more than a 1-4 level dip.

So why are we arbitrarily punishing this one small subset of multiclass characters?

[bid]

So why are we arbitrarily punishing this one small subset of multiclass characters?
Loaded question, 11 days later, without participating in the discussion.

You've had your answers.

[Mechaviking]

I would not change anything since most games do not go to level 20 anyhow it´s a moot point just pick 4 levels in your backup classes and be done with them.

[Phawksin]

The biggest reason for multiclass spell slots is I think to make sure that you can still contribute to the full set of encounters. Your power doesn't really increase, but your endurance does. So for a martial, the equivalent would I guess be getting more rages, more ki, that sort of thing.

That's actually a really great point. It is far more rewarding to multiclass as a caster in this edition than it was in 3.x becuase of the expanded spell slots (and saving throw DC design, but I digress). It would actually make a lot of sense if a MC barbarian 5/monk 5 got to count their total class level for rages and ki, though I think doing it just like that might be a more significant leap in power. There are a few classes that don't have a great analog to benefit but I think that's a solid design concept.

As for me, I had a player running a Paladin/Monk with a homebrewed "Oath of Power", focusing on self perfection. We never got to level 10, so this wasn't an issue, but we did talk a lot about what he would want in place of that second extra attack. Actually, he was fine with the dead level, recognizing that his very thematic build was about the most MAD character you can make in 5e and that he would just deal; but his concept was really cool so I wanted to help him actualize the character.

[Goober4473]

Loaded question, 11 days later, without participating in the discussion.

You've had your answers.

The answers generally have been:
1) Sure, why not?
2) It's not needed because it won't come up enough.
3) Don't change it because other things also have this problem/related problems.
4) It's not needed because that's the price you pay; otherwise it would be too powerful.

I think it's pretty obvious why #2 and #3 are unhelpful and don't need to be discussed. This is obviously a corner case, and I'm obviously interested in making small tweaks like this or I wouldn't have raised the idea in the first place. If there are other similar problems, I'll of course be looking into them as well. Lonesomechunk44 brought the thread back, and illustrated #4, which I felt warranted a response, since there was obviously still interest in the topic.

And my question stands. Why should this specific combination of classes have a dead level, and what's wrong with fixing that? You said yourself that 5/5 in martial classes is probably going to be weaker than 10 in one class, so why not close that gap with a house rule? I can't think of any situation where it would be overpowered, and "it's not perfect but just leave it alone anyways" is not what I'm about at all.


That's actually a really great point. It is far more rewarding to multiclass as a caster in this edition than it was in 3.x becuase of the expanded spell slots (and saving throw DC design, but I digress). It would actually make a lot of sense if a MC barbarian 5/monk 5 got to count their total class level for rages and ki, though I think doing it just like that might be a more significant leap in power. There are a few classes that don't have a great analog to benefit but I think that's a solid design concept.

Generally, multiclassing gives you options at the cost of raw power. Obviously this is not always the case, but multiclassed spellcasters get more, lower level spells, with the same spell slots, and other combinations get more options for using their actions, such as casting a spell or making a weapon attack. I think adding a fighting style, where many multiclassed martial characters will already have at least one or two, is a good parallel to that versatility. Besides perhaps Defense, Duelist, and Protection, it's hard to combine more than two fighting styles, so mostly what you're getting is another option.

I would also be alright with some special ability specific to individual class combinations instead, like you're talking about here, but I feel like something equivalent in power to a fighting style or +1 to an ability score is around the power level that's appropriate.

[Socratov]

how about the following?

When multiclassing you rarely have equal amounts for classes. You will ahve a primarey class and a class that supplements your abilities to get just that extra ability or somesuch.

I propose that you propose the following rule to be added to multiclassing:

Extra Attack: When determining the number of attacks a martial character can make by use of the attack action the player must determine his effective fighterlevel. Your effective fighter level is the nunber os levels in the fighter class, plus the number of levels in other martial levels (levels in classes that give extra attack at lvl 5) divided by 2, rounded down, plus the number of Valor bard levels divided by 3, rounded down. This feature doe not stack with the extra attack invocation for pact of the blade Warlocks.

This way they stack, but there is still a reason to take more fighter levels if you want more attacks. That said, your multiclassing for martial's won't hurt as mush as it would otherwise. Also, Extra Attack has now become like spellcasting progression. You can't out attack a pure fighter this way, but you can mix in fighter (for that martial training fulff) to effectively gain more attacks.

[Fighting_Ferret]

If you are going to do it, I like Socratov's idea. I was just about to address the problem with a 5 fighter/ 5 barbarian having 3 attacks, but a single classed 11 fighter would need to be a level higher to achieve the same thing... but basing it like caster progression should do the trick.

[krugaan]

how about the following?

When multiclassing you rarely have equal amounts for classes. You will ahve a primarey class and a class that supplements your abilities to get just that extra ability or somesuch.

I propose that you propose the following rule to be added to multiclassing:

Extra Attack: When determining the number of attacks a martial character can make by use of the attack action the player must determine his effective fighterlevel. Your effective fighter level is the nunber os levels in the fighter class, plus the number of levels in other martial levels (levels in classes that give extra attack at lvl 5) divided by 2, rounded down, plus the number of Valor bard levels divided by 3, rounded down. This feature doe not stack with the extra attack invocation for pact of the blade Warlocks.

This way they stack, but there is still a reason to take more fighter levels if you want more attacks. That said, your multiclassing for martial's won't hurt as mush as it would otherwise. Also, Extra Attack has now become like spellcasting progression. You can't out attack a pure fighter this way, but you can mix in fighter (for that martial training fulff) to effectively gain more attacks.

That's a neat idea, but what classes would martials actually dip for?

Barbarian - dip for rage, I guess
Fighter - action surge is a perennial favorite, plus fighting style
Paladin - dipping paladin is not great because you won't have spell slots to smite with, fighting style
Ranger - hunters mark and ... uh ... fighting style
Monk - free unarmed bonus attack after using a monk ... weapon.
Bladelock - darkness shenanigans + EB, requires 3 level dip...
Bladesinger - spells, bladesinging, MAD ... 2 level dip? I forget.

It seems like this is really only useful for other classes dipping into fighter, but it's not like they don't do that already.

edit: actually, I suppose it's fine after considering the options and what they're giving up.

[Socratov]

That's a neat idea, but what classes would martials actually dip for?

Barbarian - dip for rage, I guess and unarmored defense, and reckless attacks
Fighter - action surge is a perennial favorite, plus fighting style and for those juicy extra attack effective levels, and subclass shenanigans
Paladin - dipping paladin is not great because you won't have spell slots to smite with, fighting style And Channel Divinity and some other stuff
Ranger - hunters mark and ... uh ... fighting style I guess... And a cheerleader...
Monk - free unarmed bonus attack after using a monk ... weapon. sure, not that great at monks though
Bladelock - darkness shenanigans + EB, requires 3 level dip... 3 lvl dip is still a dip, plus the dual slots, they are nice too...
Bladesinger - spells, bladesinging, MAD ... 2 level dip? I forget. Well, yeah, basically, and a free beefed up Magic Initiate on top of that. Maybe take the shield spell for great defence

It seems like this is really only useful for other classes dipping into fighter, but it's not like they don't do that already.

edit: actually, I suppose it's fine after considering the options and what they're giving up.

responses in brick red

Well, fighter has more to offer, as does any class. Except for ranger as it is now, they are a bit... lackluster as they are.

[Goober4473]

how about the following?

When multiclassing you rarely have equal amounts for classes. You will ahve a primarey class and a class that supplements your abilities to get just that extra ability or somesuch.

I propose that you propose the following rule to be added to multiclassing:

Extra Attack: When determining the number of attacks a martial character can make by use of the attack action the player must determine his effective fighterlevel. Your effective fighter level is the nunber os levels in the fighter class, plus the number of levels in other martial levels (levels in classes that give extra attack at lvl 5) divided by 2, rounded down, plus the number of Valor bard levels divided by 3, rounded down. This feature doe not stack with the extra attack invocation for pact of the blade Warlocks.

This way they stack, but there is still a reason to take more fighter levels if you want more attacks. That said, your multiclassing for martial's won't hurt as mush as it would otherwise. Also, Extra Attack has now become like spellcasting progression. You can't out attack a pure fighter this way, but you can mix in fighter (for that martial training fulff) to effectively gain more attacks.

The problem is, this still doesn't fix the dead level. I'm perfectly happy with the delay in getting Extra Attack in the first place if you multiclass. For instance, a Fighter 3/Barbarian 2 has made the choice to gain other abilities at the price of delaying others, such as Extra Attack. This is fine.

The issue is when you would get Extra Attack twice, you instead get nothing at all at level 5 in one of your classes, which is generally a big level for most classes. With your proposed rule, if I'm a Fighter 5/Barbarian 4, it still sucks to take a 5th level in Barbarian, because I already have the level 5 Barbarian class feature. This only means I've had it since Fighter 4/Barbarian 2, meaning that 5th level in Fighter was also a dead level.

[Socratov]

The problem is, this still doesn't fix the dead level. I'm perfectly happy with the delay in getting Extra Attack in the first place if you multiclass. For instance, a Fighter 3/Barbarian 2 has made the choice to gain other abilities at the price of delaying others, such as Extra Attack. This is fine.

The issue is when you would get Extra Attack twice, you instead get nothing at all at level 5 in one of your classes, which is generally a big level for most classes. With your proposed rule, if I'm a Fighter 5/Barbarian 4, it still sucks to take a 5th level in Barbarian, because I already have the level 5 Barbarian class feature. This only means I've had it since Fighter 4/Barbarian 2, meaning that 5th level in Fighter was also a dead level.

Yeah, well, you can't have it all, multiclassing will get you stuff you don't like. In teh case of the barbarian, yeah, a dead level, you can get extra rage dmg though...

[DanyBallon]

Just asking; is getting a single "dead level" in your adventuring career, and this happening at mid to high level play is such a big deal?

[Goober4473]

Yeah, well, you can't have it all, multiclassing will get you stuff you don't like. In teh case of the barbarian, yeah, a dead level, you can get extra rage dmg though...

All I'm saying is you're trying to fix a different problem, which I don't think is a problem, instead of fixing the problem I have put forward in this thread.


Just asking; is getting a single "dead level" in your adventuring career, and this happening at mid to high level play is such a big deal?

"It's only a small problem and will affect only very few people, so why bother fixing it?"

No, it's not such a big deal. But it's lame and boring and not fair to this small subset of characters and I can fix it very easily, so why not?

[Socratov]

Just asking; is getting a single "dead level" in your adventuring career, and this happening at mid to high level play is such a big deal?

Well, it's not really fun to have a dead level, but certainly not the end of the world. Especially if you can multiclass...

[Fighting_Ferret]

The problem is, this still doesn't fix the dead level. I'm perfectly happy with the delay in getting Extra Attack in the first place if you multiclass. For instance, a Fighter 3/Barbarian 2 has made the choice to gain other abilities at the price of delaying others, such as Extra Attack. This is fine.

The issue is when you would get Extra Attack twice, you instead get nothing at all at level 5 in one of your classes, which is generally a big level for most classes. With your proposed rule, if I'm a Fighter 5/Barbarian 4, it still sucks to take a 5th level in Barbarian, because I already have the level 5 Barbarian class feature. This only means I've had it since Fighter 4/Barbarian 2, meaning that 5th level in Fighter was also a dead level.

Well it would also allow you to be a level 8 fighter/ 6 barbarian and have the benefits of both and a third attack... a feat which is currently only available to 11th level fighters.

[Goober4473]

Well it would also allow you to be a level 8 fighter/ 6 barbarian and have the benefits of both and a third attack... a feat which is currently only available to 11th level fighters.

But is that desirable? Do we want to take away the uniqueness of the level 11+ Fighter? Is Fighter 8/Barbarian 6 worth taking that level 5 Barbarian dead level when you could just as easily have 3 attacks (and 2 levels earlier to boot) by going Fighter 10/Barbarian 4? And how does this help a Ranger 5/Barbarian 5 or a Monk 9/Paladin 11 or any other combination there?

[D.U.P.A.]

It is not always a dead level. At 5th level Paladin (and Ranger) get access to sweet lvl2 spells and increasing spell slot progression. After all, full casters get a lot of these "dead levels".

[Kane0]

Choice of +1 to a stat or +1 proficiency seem fair to me.

[Tanarii]

Dead levels are a part many multiclassing builds. Anyone determining spell slot progression by multiclassing often runs into them too. Even spellcasting levels above 10 don't gain any new spell slots, so depending on your specific combo you might not get anything for a level.

For example, an EK 9 / Wizard 8 has a dead level when he goes to Wiz 9.

[Goober4473]

It is not always a dead level. At 5th level Paladin (and Ranger) get access to sweet lvl2 spells and increasing spell slot progression. After all, full casters get a lot of these "dead levels".

This does help mitigate the problem some, but I don't think it justifies ignoring it. Fighters, Barbarians, and Monks still get very little at 5th besides Extra Attack, and even Rangers and Paladins aren't getting as much as the class design assumes they are.


Dead levels are a part many multiclassing builds. Anyone determining spell slot progression by multiclassing often runs into them too. Even spellcasting levels above 10 don't gain any new spell slots, so depending on your specific combo you might not get anything for a level.

For example, an EK 9 / Wizard 8 has a dead level when he goes to Wiz 9.

They're still gaining access to 5th level wizard spells, and while they may have had 5th level slots for a while, but in most cases, casting spells with higher level slots is less powerful than actual high level spells.

And really, it's less about the dead level than it is about the overall power. If level 5 was crap, but level 6 came with something super rad, that'd be one thing. But multiclassing martial classes isn't even that good to begin with, and none of them are getting any amazing combos at higher levels, so I think it's unfair to not give them something in place of that wasted level.

[Steampunkette]

Allow them to take a bonus action to swing their weapon with no attribute modifier to damage.

Unless the have two weapon fighting or another ability which gives bonus action attacks. In which case make the bonus attack part of the regular attack action and take away their bonus action option.

[Mechaviking]

Aside from barbarians who get the best level 5 ever with increased movement on top of extra attack.

[Coidzor]

If you gain the extra attack class feature, and you already have it from another class, you may instead select one of the following options:


A bonus proficiency of your choice
+1 to an ability score
An additional fighting style chosen from those available to fighters


So, what, a save, a skill, a type of armor, a weapon, shields, or a tool? A specific subset of them?


Yeah, well, you can't have it all, multiclassing will get you stuff you don't like.

The "you can't have it all," would be the delay of high level abilities. Not some mystical requirement that you have to make any houserules that alter Multiclassing screw the players in some way.


Just asking; is getting a single "dead level" in your adventuring career, and this happening at mid to high level play is such a big deal?

They realized how much dead levels suck back in 3.5.

[Socratov]

So, what, a save, a skill, a type of armor, a weapon, shields, or a tool? A specific subset of them?



The "you can't have it all," would be the delay of high level abilities. Not some mystical requirement that you have to make any houserules that alter Multiclassing screw the players in some way.



They realized how much dead levels suck back in 3.5.

well, to be honest, with my fix the level itself becomes a dead level, however, the level itself is also the reason why you can get iterative attacks stacking with fighterlevels in their build. While it may seem like a redundancy in the levels, making it seem dead, it's actually comparable to casting. Iterative attacks are, in this way, becoming higher level attacks, quite like higher level spells. Except, now they stack like they should have in the first place, it'sjust that the fighter is the only full attack 'caster'

I also think that this should happen with the 'standard ASI' when multiclassing, but that would create more dead levels since WotC thought to fill the dead class levels with things everybody gets at the same level: ASI/Feats. If you follow that logic (and I do) then dead levels are aren't always the daed levels they seem.

[DanyBallon]

They realized how much dead levels suck back in 3.5.

Getting a dead level every 2-3 level sucks. Getting a single dead level over 20 level is far from the same.

[Slipperychicken]

When you talk about dead levels, level five is not a dead level for a fighter/barbarian multiclass.

Barbarian3 and Fighter3 get you subclass benefits, Fighter2 gets you action surge, and barbarian2 gets you reckless attack and danger sense. No matter what order you take those class levels, you're getting something cool at level five, in addition to your proficiency bonus going up to +3.


Also, delaying extra attack is the cost of martial multiclassing. It's the same idea as casters delaying their ability to learn higher level spells. That cost is crucial to balancing multiclassing relative to single-classing. You should only be multiclassing for something that's worth the delay. And if you choose a build for which there's a level or two when you don't get a class feature you like, that's your choice. Nobody's forcing you to multiclass.

[Aelyn]

When you talk about dead levels, level five is not a dead level for a fighter/barbarian multiclass.

Barbarian3 and Fighter3 get you subclass benefits, Fighter2 gets you action surge, and barbarian2 gets you reckless attack and danger sense. No matter what order you take those class levels, you're getting something cool at level five, in addition to your proficiency bonus going up to +3.


Also, delaying extra attack is the cost of martial multiclassing. It's the same idea as casters delaying their ability to learn higher level spells. That cost is crucial to balancing multiclassing relative to single-classing. You should only be multiclassing for something that's worth the delay. And if you choose a build for which there's a level or two when you don't get a class feature you like, that's your choice. Nobody's forcing you to multiclass.

We aren't debating whether or not your fifth level total is dead when multiclassing - we're debating whether your fifth level in a given class is dead if you already have the appropriate feature from a different class.

In other words, we aren't talking about the case where a Fighter 2 / Barbarian 2 has to take a fifth level, but the case where a Fighter 7 / Barbarian 4 wants to take Barbarian 5, but gets almost nothing out of it because the main feature of Barb 5 is Extra Attack, which the character already has.

[Slipperychicken]

We aren't debating whether or not your fifth level total is dead when multiclassing - we're debating whether your fifth level in a given class is dead if you already have the appropriate feature from a different class.

In other words, we aren't talking about the case where a Fighter 2 / Barbarian 2 has to take a fifth level, but the case where a Fighter 7 / Barbarian 4 wants to take Barbarian 5, but gets almost nothing out of it because the main feature of Barb 5 is Extra Attack, which the character already has.

Barbarian 5 still gets fast movement and rage damage bonus goes up to +3. That's far from a dead level.

I get the idea though, but I don't think it should be compensated for in any way. It's the cost of multiclassing. If anything, the player should have gotten enough of a benefit from multiclassing to make up for it.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

Well there are two options:
Let all Extra Attack (and Thirsting Blade) options stack.
--it honestly isn't all that much more powerful, and any DM can adjust for it with either slightly healthier enemies or slightly increased numbers of mooks. Also it will give you MAD primaries and secondaries to try and game it. So I think the cost warrants stacking them

OR
Whatever class would have a dead level from the loss of extra attack, instead gets the next class feature it would receive from either its class or subclass
--i.e. A ranger 5/monk 4 leveling up in monk would get stunning fist, then instead of extra attack they'd gain ki-empowered strikes or their 6th level from their monastic tradition, ex. Wholeness of body

[krugaan]

Well there are two options:
Let all Extra Attack (and Thirsting Blade) options stack.
--it honestly isn't all that much more powerful, and any DM can adjust for it with either slightly healthier enemies or slightly increased numbers of mooks. Also it will give you MAD primaries and secondaries to try and game it. So I think the cost warrants stacking them.

I don't know if I like the idea ... 5/5/5 anything will have 4 attacks 5 levels before fighter. You're essentially removing the fighter capstone and giving it to almost every martial class. Hell, by the same method, you could get 5 attacks, which flat out disincentivitizes going past 5 in fighter in favor of 5/5/5/5 martial classes. Is there any way to give out "half attacks"?

[PotatoGolem]

To answer the original question, a fighting style seems like the best way to go. It's martial-flavored, so it's something that it makes sense for your class to get. It's not nearly as strong of a boost as EA, obviously, but it's still a fun ability to look forward to. And given that most of the offensive styles are mutually exclusive, it tends to give more combat options rather than just a little boost to what you're already doing well.

[Goober4473]

It's the cost of multiclassing. If anything, the player should have gotten enough of a benefit from multiclassing to make up for it.

It's only the cost of multiclasses with these specific 5 classes, and not any other class. If all classes got something that didn't stack at 5, then sure. But they don't. A Fighter/Rogue doesn't waste a level getting a non-stacking bonus. A Ranger/Sorcerer doesn't waste a level. A Cleric/Wizard doesn't waste a level (the spell slots progression is a little different, but they get 3rd level spells of their second class). Why should a Ranger/Barbarian? Why should a Fighter/Paladin? Why does "the cost of multiclassing" only apply to some combinations and not others? What's so unbelievably powerful about combining level 5+ in martial classes that they need this restriction?

The only possible answer would be your second bit there, where hopefully they've gotten enough to make up for it, but if they already got something great, why continue to level 5 in your second class at all? That's the issue I'm trying to deal with.


To answer the original question, a fighting style seems like the best way to go. It's martial-flavored, so it's something that it makes sense for your class to get. It's not nearly as strong of a boost as EA, obviously, but it's still a fun ability to look forward to. And given that most of the offensive styles are mutually exclusive, it tends to give more combat options rather than just a little boost to what you're already doing well.

That's the idea, yeah.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

.

I don't know if I like the idea ... 5/5/5 anything will have 4 attacks 5 levels before fighter. You're essentially removing the fighter capstone and giving it to almost every martial class. Hell, by the same method, you could get 5 attacks, which flat out disincentivitizes going past 5 in fighter in favor of 5/5/5/5 martial classes. Is there any way to give out "half attacks"?

Yeah, but I mean look at the requirements for the classes that give out extra attacks (also look at Thirsting Blade)...
To actually get into 4 of the classes you have to spread yourself thin somewhat, and Valor/Bladesinger doesn't get it til 6th, so those ones are precluded from 5/5/5/5

So Barb+Fighter+Monk+Pal 5 each, Str13 Con13 Dex13 Wis13 Cha13, that only leaves Int as the dump stat *edit* and con, but you wouldn't for HP

(I wrongly thought barbarian had con multiclass req's)

[krugaan]

Yeah, but I mean look at the requirements for the classes that give out extra attacks (also look at Thirsting Blade)...
To actually get into 4 of the classes you have to spread yourself thin somewhat, and Valor/Bladesinger doesn't get it til 6th, so those ones are precluded from 5/5/5/5

So Barb+Fighter+Monk+Pal 5 each, Str13 Con13 Dex13 Wis13 Cha13, that only leaves Int as the dumpstat

lesse, possible extra attacks are:

fighter (str OR dex)
paladin (str / cha)
barbarian (str)
bladesinger (int)
bladelock (cha)
monk (wis / dex)
ranger (str / wis / dex)
valor bard (cha / dex sort of ... level 6 ruins it)

So you could go:

Eldritch Fighter / paladin / bladesinger / bladelock
- 15 str, 9 dex, 13 con, 13 int, 10 wis, 13 cha
- goliath for 17 str / 15 con
- 4 asi's brings you to 20 str, 18 con, and GWM if you choose
- a good amount of slots to smite with, since every class is a caster
- 5(1) attacks and action surge
- darkness / darksight shenanigans
- a ton of spell utility
This would be just a ridiculous awesome class to play, honestly. The possible novas would be utterly ridiculous.

edit: whoops, I missed the bladesinger getting it at 6th, plus goliath is notably not an elf, lol.

I'll have to think about it more.

[Rysto]

EK doesn't buy you very many spell slots, does it? Champion would net you crits on 19s, which is great for a Paladin. If you don't have advantage, that increases your chances of criting on at least one hit (out of five attacks) in a round from 23% to 41%. If you do have advantage, you chance of a crit goes from 40% to 65%.

[Burley]

Multiclassing has always carried a penalty. Whether it's an XP penalty or (in the case of 4e) a feat or two. A dead level to gain access to a slew of new abililtes? I say that's a good price.

Most 5e classes are defined by level 3. You may get bonuses, but your path is set, as are the features that define your class. If you multiclass into Fighter from Barbarian, you shouldn't get the Multiattack (1) ability, because you already have it. But, you got Second Wind and Action Surge and, depending on your archetype, you may gain Maneuvers or Spells or that Improved Critical (which is a way bigger deal than I think most people think.) And, going from Fighter to Barbarian (or Monk or whatever) means focusing less on the specialized techniques that let you get Multiattack three times. You left. You gave it up. You don't deserve it.

You've gained a whole slew of new junk and shouldn't talk about how it isn't fair that you got a dead level. The characters that don't multiclass don't get new features at every level, they mostly just get bonuses to existing things. Getting a stat bonus or a proficiency bonus or any extra special thing that made just for that one character that the other characters don't get because they didn't multiclass: that's unfair.

[krugaan]

EK doesn't buy you very many spell slots, does it? Champion would net you crits on 19s, which is great for a Paladin. If you don't have advantage, that increases your chances of criting on at least one hit (out of five attacks) in a round from 23% to 41%. If you do have advantage, you chance of a crit goes from 40% to 65%.

Ah, that's a good point about champion. How about Pal 5 / Champion 6 / bladelock 9?

Sure you *only* get 4 attacks, but a charming amount of short rest smite slots, 5 ASIs, and STR CON CHA dependency.

[Grixis]

You should get to pick one of the crappy feats like charger. A nice bonus if it's actually free.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

You should get to pick one of the crappy feats like charger. A nice bonus if it's actually free.

That's not a bad idea for an alternative. Any time you would get a duplicate feature that won't stack, take a feat instead. Feats are about as strong as extra attack, or Evasion in the case of monk/rogue (both get it at 7)

I know the rules say that extra attack shouldn't stack, but I honestly don't see it as game breaking to treat them all like the fighters progressive extra attack. It's about as strong as the higher level features of the other classes, and doesn't punish the multi-class character.

Ex; you wouldn't be getting indomitable, extra ASI's/feats, diamond soul, stillness of mind, the paladin aura features, improved smites, hide in plain sight, lands stride, vanish

[DanyBallon]

Except for the fighter, any other class that get extra attack get something else as well; valor bard still get countercharm and more spell slots, bladesigner get more spell slots, ranger and paladin got a new spell level, barbariam get fat movement, monk get stunning strike.

There's only the fighter than can truly say its a dead level if he already have extra attack from another class.

[georgie_leech]

In other words, it's less of a dead level and more of a dead feature. If this is a problem, what do you give to the Rogue7/Monk7's out there for their overlapped evasion?

[Coidzor]

In other words, it's less of a dead level and more of a dead feature. If this is a problem, what do you give to the Rogue7/Monk7's out there for their overlapped evasion?

Evasion and the fact that it's more than just one or two things that would have to be addressed in an overhaul of the multiclassing rules has already been addressed.


Multiclassing has always carried a penalty. Whether it's an XP penalty or (in the case of 4e) a feat or two.

That was a penalty which was largely ignored by the community for being rather stupid and which wasn't even implemented well at all, so it's not exactly a good precedent to hark back to.

[Goober4473]

If this is a problem, what do you give to the Rogue7/Monk7's out there for their overlapped evasion?

This strikes me as some kind of slippery slope argument, but I certainly plan to give something in that case. Perhaps a +1 to an ability score or a half feat, which I use.

[DanyBallon]

As for the rogue7/monk7, in addition to evasion, monk get Stillness of mind, and rogue get an additional dice to sneak attack, so no dead level there either.

[Pope Scarface]

I don't see this is a problem, but the benefit you get from a second fighting style does not seem unbalancing as a 'fix.' I skipped 4th, so I'm used to an edition with lots of dead levels and classes with no capstones.

[Naanomi]

My big struggle with a second fighting style is that it takes some of the 'uniqueness' away from the Champion Fighter... an archetype that doesn't need anything pulled away from it. +1 Stat is pretty generic and probably doesn't lead to a lot of brokenness as a simple fix if you feel you need one

[DanyBallon]

My big struggle with a second fighting style is that it takes some of the 'uniqueness' away from the Champion Fighter... an archetype that doesn't need anything pulled away from it.

I'm totally agreeing with you! As a matter of fact, I'm thinking about not letting a MC character take a second fighting style if the already have one. And since Fighter, Paladin and Ranger also get something else the level they get their fighting style, there won't be any "dead" level.

[R.Shackleford]

Obviously getting Extra Attack from two or more classes doesn't stack for very good reason, but I feel like level 5, and important level for most classes, shouldn't be a dead level if you multiclass between martial classes. So rather than let it stack, or simply let the dead level stand, I'm considering giving some other bonus instead.

My thought is that you should get something about equal to a warlock invocation, since a multiclass warlock that already has Extra Attack can take a different invocation in place of the bladelock extra attack invocation. In that vein, it seems like an extra fighting style would be appropriate.

What do you all think?


Really I think extra attack and cantrips should have worked the same way...

When you gain extra attack your weapon damage is increased by a single die. Give extra attack based off character level (3 or so) so you have something like...

Paladin 5 w\great sword would deal 4d6 + Str + Misc damage.

Paladin 15 w/great sword would deal 6d6 + Str + Misc damage.

Then make a bonus action attack that works with ANY weapon, call this extra attack, and have it deal 1d4+Mod damage. This would be a separate attack roll. You could make this a martial class only sort of thing. Duel wielding in the PHB is erased.

At level 5 of each class that would normally get Extra Attack (which has been changed and doesn't exist the same way anymore) have them gain a bonus feat that can't be switched over to ability score bonuses. Even if you pick up a champion and gain a ton of feats and want a simple character... There are plenty of simple feats that you could take. You could take Resilient, Savage Attacker, Observant, Athlete, Mobile, or whatever else. This allows martials to not be punished as much for taking feats.

Note: Spitballing, having actually sat down and tried this out in any capacity just yet.

[Burley]

And my question stands. Why should this specific combination of classes have a dead level, and what's wrong with fixing that? You said yourself that 5/5 in martial classes is probably going to be weaker than 10 in one class, so why not close that gap with a house rule?


As I said before: When you multi-class you gain the fundamental features of a second class. Are your features individually as strong as non-multiclass characters? Maybe not. But, in a game where combat is a series of tactical choices, having more choices is having more power. Multiclassing gives you the ability to do things you couldn't do before, or even augment your existing abilities in ways that wouldn't be possible without multiclassing.

Multiclassing is how you make combos, and combos are generally more powerful than not. Taking a dip in Rogue so my Bear Totem Barbarian can add extra damage dice on all of his Reckless Assaults with his dual-wielded scimitars should warrant a dead level. I'm doing things that neither a pure barbarian or a pure rogue can do. (Maybe that's not a powerful example, but it's still an example.)
A character who multi-classes and gains new abilities has already been rewarded. With new abilities. Getting a new extra thing on a dead level is giving something extra to a player who already got something extra. Are you going to give new things to the other characters? Proficiency bonuses scale with character level, not class level. You've already gained (possibly) larger hit dice, weapon and armor proficiency, and maybe spells. Why should you get an extra bonus on top of that? Armor proficiency is half of a feat, which is comparable to a +1 ability bonus. Why give that character an extra +1 bonus when they got a bunch of new stuff from the multi-class?

I just... I just don't understand why this seems illogical or unfair. It's completely fair. Further rewarding multi-classing makes players who do not multi-class get less special stuff. By bending the rules for one player, you alienate three or four others. It may just be a tiny little +1 here or there, but it's still not fair.