PDA

View Full Version : Pirates III- At Forum's End



Pages : 1 2 3 [4]

Atreyu the Masked LLama
2007-08-01, 08:29 PM
Finally AMEN is able to gather enough votes to lynch Zar Peter overboard. The astronomer hollers WAIT!!! Since you all like voting so much how about a quick game of cloak and dagger. Surely, AMEN members would like to play Cloak and Dagger.

*The other passengers all nod and wait for Zar to hand out the lists. Many shoot others evil looks and some whisper back and forth. Every so often one will go up and hand Zar Peter a slip of paper.

He cheerfully goes up and writes the first update totals on a chalkboard.

Shadow 10 points
Raldor 8
Magtok 7
Azakiel 3
Janusnori 1
White helm 1
everyone else is at 0

Things look bad for the naked man. Second update will be soon.

*A few minutes later and after a few notes are exchanged, Zar Peter updates the new totals*

Shadow 12
Magtok 10
Raldor 6
Zar Peter 4
Azakiel 3
White Helm 1

Hahaha. Very funny. You know I'm not on anyone' kill list or heal list.

*after 10 minutes, he tallies up the final score for the 1st round.*

Zar Peter 215
Magtok 12
Shadow 8
Raldor 7
White Helm 1

Hey! That's not right! Thats impossible.
But the crowd doesn't listen. They run up and grab Zar Peter and hurls him overboard. Even Xavier gets in on the action by pushing in the chalkboard. As he splashes down, Zar Peter starts laughing and HE FLOATS!!

Fools! You forget that the heart of Cloak and Dagger is treachery. I'm wearing a life jacket." Xavier throws a rope to Zar Peter who climbs up into the ship. Xavier holds out his hand for a tip and coughs.

Zar Peter was lynched. He was saved by his life jacket. If AMEN and the pirates can get their kills and recruits in soon, we can update tonight.

whitehelm
2007-08-01, 09:21 PM
*shrugs* Your death has only been delayed Zar.

Edit: Oh, and Atreyu? It's whitehelm...one word.

evnafets
2007-08-01, 09:25 PM
Very tricky Zar Peter. I see Faerwain was not the only one to purchase a life jacket. I presume that was from the first shopping trip? I gave the merchant my money at the last place, but they never delivered the promised package aboard ship.

Very well then. I suggest you use this night to pray to your god.
And make sure you finish your prayers appropriately.
AMEN.

Shadow
2007-08-01, 10:44 PM
Very well then. I suggest you use this night to pray to your god.
And make sure you finish your prayers appropriately.
AMEN.
Haahaahaa!!!
Good one!

Atreyu the Masked LLama
2007-08-01, 11:17 PM
(thanks to an AMENite to write this for us.)

Whitehelm - Figured you come make a bump in the night.

El Jaspero - I’m here to bump you off.
What the bump did I do to you?

Nothing, but someone needs to be bumped off this ship. Else we continue bumping along for far too long.

Well make it quick. I don’t want to be bumping up breakfast while you bump me to be bumping up daises.

You bumping bet your bump that we’ll bumping make it quick. We don’t need any more bumps in the road.

You sure I can’t bump into AMEN?

AMEN is bumped up enough as it is. It bumping needs to get all us bumping pirates into it before the game bumps. You ready?

I really don’t want to bumping bump?

Bumping sorry mate. Can’t make our bumping omelet with out bumping a few bumps. Let me just turn on the bumping radio, so you can bumping scream if you like….

El Jaspero turns up the dial on the alarm clock radio. You hear the following tune…


….Bump Bump
The Mac Dad will make you Bump Bump
The Daddy Mac will make you Bump Bump
Kris Kross will make you Bump Bump

Don't try to compare us to another bad little fad
I'm the Mac and I'm bad give you something that you never had
I'll make ya Bump Bump wiggle and shake your bump
Cause I'll be kicking the flavor that makes you wanna Bump
How high? Real high
Cause I'm just so fly
A young loveable, bumpable type of guy
And everything is the bump with a little bump
And inside-out is wiggida wiggida wiggida bump
I come stompin' with somethi' to keep you bumpin'
R&B and this thread is what I'm bumpin'
And ain't something about Kris Kross we all that
So when they ask to the rocks they believe that

Bump Bump
The Mac Dad will make you Bump Bump
The Daddy Mac will make you Bump Bump
Kris Kross will make you Bump Bump


Behind the music, you can hear Whitehelm’s scream barely make it through.
BUUUUMMMMPPP...

Whitehelm was killed by Pirates. He was a passenger. Day begins and will end whenever AMEN wants it to apparently or 11 PM EST on Friday.

Shadow
2007-08-01, 11:21 PM
Should we kill ZP again?
*points at ZP while temporarily putting on a pair of pants, just so that he can turn them around backwards.

evnafets
2007-08-01, 11:23 PM
Why not. Do you think the life jacket will work a second time?
evnafets points at Zar Peter

Lord Magtok
2007-08-01, 11:27 PM
Nah, I'm pretty sure it's a one-use item.

Magtok points at Zar Peter.

Zeb The Troll
2007-08-01, 11:36 PM
*Zeb points at Zar Peter* again.

Ink
2007-08-01, 11:45 PM
"Sorry mate, I think it's time for you to die now."

Ink points at Zar Peter

Akaziel
2007-08-01, 11:48 PM
Akaziel points at Zar Peter.

janusnori
2007-08-01, 11:48 PM
Die!

*points at Zar Peter*

Zar Peter
2007-08-02, 12:41 AM
((Hey, I only wanted to be the last passenger!))

Xavier points at Zar Peter!

You, you are no Amenite!

But it stands there in my sig! I'm the official Astronomer!

You forgot that you deleted it to get space for all the other stuff in your sig! Die!

Oh, crap, he's right!

((@Atreyu: Great scene, thanks!
@evnafets: I reclaimed my purchase yesterday, they sent me a package with it))

evnafets
2007-08-02, 12:59 AM
Hmmm. Maybe I should go check with the postmaster. Or at least see if I can get my money back.

You're going to be doubly blessed with two death scenes. What a lucky guy. Is there a "deja vu" game somewhere around? Maybe we'll invent it just for you.

Timberwolf
2007-08-02, 07:13 AM
Points at Zar Peter.

Atreyu the Masked LLama
2007-08-02, 08:06 AM
Wow! I think we hit a majority within the hour. Well, I can't post an ending at work today, and I this I have a game of D&D right after this, but I'll have Zar Peter killed off sometime tonight, if one of my fellow co-narrators is unable to take care of it this afternoon.

That will also give us a bit of time to prep an ending.

Supagoof
2007-08-02, 03:31 PM
Wait! Wait!

Points at Zar Peter

Phew. Almost didn't make it....

@V It's cause we love you Zar! Really. :smallwink:

Zar Peter
2007-08-02, 03:37 PM
((I'm honoured that the most of you are trying really hard to come to my second funeral.))

whitehelm
2007-08-02, 04:23 PM
points at Zar Peter anyway!

Even death will not keep me from the final lynch!

Artemis97
2007-08-02, 05:23 PM
I wonder if this game will end with no bad guys dead. Oh well. *continues to party in the pirate free paradise*

whitehelm
2007-08-02, 09:33 PM
Yep..with Zar's death, AMEN (along with the newly joined pirates) wins.

Vonriel
2007-08-02, 09:37 PM
(( A reminder, the game isn't over yet, and until it is, discussion of things that may affect gameplay is a no-no for us dead folk. Including speculation as to the end of the game. ))

Indurain
2007-08-03, 01:14 AM
AMEN MMLLLXXXVII: The gnome who didn't want to die

The day is drawing to a close and the remaining “passengers” search for Zar Peter. Frustrated at their inability to dispose of the pesky wizard yesterday, they are now hungry for blood. But their search appears to be fruitless. That is until Xavier decides to save himself by showing the AMENites the secret beer storage that Zar discovered on his first night on the ship. What they find there is a sad sight indeed. Zar splayed out over a few empty kegs of beer, completely passed out. The AMENites grab the unconscious body of Peter and haul him up to the top deck, and quickly deposit him over the side of the ship.

They wait for the sound of that satisfying splash, but it doesn’t come.

“Not again.” Says Shadow. “How much longer can this drag out?”

It’s only when they look over the side of the ship, that they realise…they’re docked. The cruise had come to an end. And as they look down they see Zar Peter slowly coming around, on top of a pile of stuffed bunnies.

“What happened?” He asks, slowly getting to his feet. He looks up and sees the AMENites staring down at him in anger. Slowly realisation dawns on him. “Missed again suckers!” He screams as he starts to run away from the ship. Zar runs into the town and the AMENites can only look on in disappointment. That is until…

*HOOOOONKKKKK* *SPLAT*

A large banana truck cuts Zar Peter’s celebrations short.

Summary: Zar Peter was killed by a banana truck. He was a passenger.

The AMENites raise a mighty cheer that echoes over the entire island. The pirates among them begin to tear apart the ship, looking for any and all remaining post counts they may have missed. Then, Ink, now decked out in his full El Jaspero uniform comes up to the deck.

“Ar…look what I found.” He yells.

As the AMENites and Pirates gather round they see that Ink has a map, more specifically a treasure map. The only text on it is at the top, a cryptic message: TACO. Realisation soon downs on the crew that the map is of the very same island they are on. Ink quickly jumps overboard onto the pile of stuffed bunnies and tears off into the jungle. Everyone follows behind. After nearly an hour of traipsing through stifling heat and dangerous traps and pitfalls, the AMENites come to a small clearing shaped like a taco. Sitting in the middle of the clearing is a large rock, also suspiciously shaped like a taco. Sitting atop the rock is a brilliant white helm. Ink slowly approaches the rock, constantly checking his map.

“It should be right here.” He says. “Come on boys, help me move this rock.”

People quickly rush over, and soon the rock has been over turned the impressive white helm carelessly discarded in some tall grass. As soon as the rock has been cleared hands begin digging through the dirt until Supagoof screams out.

“AAARRRGGGHHHH…I hit me nail. Oooooh, that stings.”

Soon the earth has been cleared leaving a treasure chest…and on the front, where a keyhole should be is an indentation in the shape of…you guessed it…a taco. Try all they might the AMENites cannot break into the chest. The treasure of the taco is safe…but for how long?

(My guess? Probably until the next game of Pirates. *wink wink*)

THE END! AMEN wins. Flawless Victory.

Indurain
2007-08-03, 01:25 AM
Roles: (sorry for any poor spelling...I'm tired)

Akaziel - Smellie Hippie
almighty salmon - FRAN
Artemis97 - Passenger
B-Man - Passenger
bassetking - FRAN
Calamity - Passenger
Captain Van Der Decken - Alarra
Castaras - Passenger
Dolie Master - Thes Hunter
Eldritch Knight - FRAN
evnafets - ZRS
Faerwin - Pirate
fleeing coward - Passenger
Funky Odor - Trog
helgraf - Passenger
hyram graff - Passenger
Ink - El Jaspero
inky13112 - Passenger
janusnori - Pirate
Jontom Xire - Passenger
Khaldan - Passenger
Kyrian - Lord Magtok
Lord Magtok - Pirate
Lord Fullbladder - Passenger
Malmagor Andrigal - FRAN
pingcode20 - Passenger
Shadow - Indurain
Serlahc - Passenger
Smellie Hippie - Passenger
Raldor - Passenger
Supagoof - Pirate
The Almighty One - Passenger
Timberwolf - FRAN
Vonriel - FRAN - Korith
Vicarin - Passenger
whitehelm - Passenger
Zar Peter - Passenger
Zeb the Troll - Llama

Zar Peter
2007-08-03, 01:47 AM
That was great! Awesome! Better than I imagined! Thank you, Indurain, Alarra and Atreyu for this game, I'm happy to come to a Pirate and Amenite free heaven!

Jontom Xire
2007-08-03, 01:51 AM
I've just worked something out. DOH!

I suspected early on that Shadow would be taken over by the AMENites. I made a bit of a mistake by hinting at my suspicions to him. Then SupaGoof claimed to be the seer and a bit of cross-checking with Shadow proved he wasn't. Shadow then very neatly tricked me by saying I should leave the investigation into his hands. At the time I assumed that Supagoof was kept alive because Shadow was trying to get deeper into the pirates - find more of them out. Then I got killed and kind of lost interest a little.

It's only now I realise that Shadow wanted me to back away from Supagoof because he knew Supagoof was a pirate (what else could he be) and got him recruited into the AMENites. I unwittingly handed the AMENites the entire pirate contigent on a plate. I suspect now that I was killed because I knew SupaGoof was a pirate.

Thinking a bit further, how can the AMENites not win unless they have really bad luck in about the first 4 or 5 turns? Lord Magtok needs only lie low for that long before he has probably unearthed the pirates and the masons. Once he recruits more than half of either and at least one of the other, he can use one group to whittle the other down until he controls it too. Being only one guy he is really hard to find, so even if everyone decides that their number one priority will be to find and kill Lord Magtok it's still a bit of an impossible task to accomplish.

Oh, and did anyone remember my list of six that I said would have a higher proportion or pirates and everyone said I was spouting rubbish? It had two pirates on it. The reason I knew it would have a higher pirate density was because of the 9 people who voted for me, I knew three of them were not pirates for sure, and I knew that none of the remaining 6 were Legion because I asked Almighty Salmon.

Congratulations to Akaziel. I was almost convinced he was a member of the Legion of Fran. Well played.

janusnori
2007-08-03, 02:02 AM
Lord Magtok isn't that hard to find, JX, considering that we scried him on turn 1.

Good job Supagoof and the others for devising such a clever plan. (which I'm sure he will love to explain.)

Good job pirates!

*Final Fantasy victory music plays*

Zar Peter
2007-08-03, 02:07 AM
I think it also helped a little that Shadow was attacked and saved at day one.
So everyone knew he was Indurain and he served the head of the seer to the Amenites and the Pirates on a silver tablet.

Fleeing Coward
2007-08-03, 02:19 AM
*Note to self, don't accuse Smellie Hippie and Lord Magtok of been pirates during the night next time.

The passengers just had some bad luck having Shadow revealed as Indurain on the first night, once that happened, he was bound to be recruited by Lord Magtok and that pretty much sealed the fate of the rest of the passengers as soon as the masons and seers revealed themselves to Shadow.

Also all those days where everyone pointed at JX certainly didn't help matters and gave the AMENites plenty of time

The power of recruitment is just too powerful even with only one person starting out especially when they can recruit the pirates as well giving the AMENites control of the night time killings as well day time lynches after a few nights of recruiting barring bad luck as JX said.

Just a suggestion but it might give the passengers a better chance if recruiting was cut down to every second or third night or if pirates can't be recruited. Since as it stands, once the AMENites gain control of even one pirate, it's likely that alliances will form between the two that'd pretty much end the game as it stands now.

That been said, congratulations and well done to the pirates and AMENites, I had absolutely no idea who some of the pirates were even at the end of the game.

Ink
2007-08-03, 02:47 AM
Haha, good game all. Thanks for the game everyone, and thanks to Atreyu, Indy, and Alarra.

Well done, my pirates and Amen mates. 7803 posts looted in total, not a bad haul eh?

Akaziel
2007-08-03, 03:48 AM
I didn't scry Kyrian due to any In-Game factors. I randomly chose by pointing at the list of players. :smallwink:

After my Night 1 scry, Supagoof planned something involving us getting into AMEN, as Janusnori pointed out.

Good game all.

Oh, and Jontom? Thanks, but I wasn't trying to fool you.

Jontom Xire
2007-08-03, 03:57 AM
Lord Magtok isn't that hard to find, JX, considering that we scried him on turn 1.

Good job Supagoof and the others for devising such a clever plan. (which I'm sure he will love to explain.)

Good job pirates!

*Final Fantasy victory music plays*

Ok, so if the pirates scried Lord Magtok on night one, why didn't you kill him on night two!?!

Hellooo, Pirates lost! If you had killed Lord Magtok on night 2, you might have won!

Personally I think deliberately bailing out on your role to join the "winning side" is cheating. If the pirates deliberately decided to become AMENites then that is cheating - they are deliberately losing as pirates so they can win as AMENites. The game just degenerates. It's one thing for Lord Magtok to be clever and recruit pirates so as to have a nice ready formed network, and quite another for the pirates to go to Lord Magtok and say "Hey, we'd like to be AMENites please". If you take it to it's furthest extent, then everyone decides they want to be AMENites and no-one lynches anyone and the pirates never kill anyone, and Lord Magtok just recruits everyone, and hey, everyone's a winner because we're all AMENites now.

So I'm hacked off with that. As far as I'm concerned, the pirates cheated and spoilt the game for everyone else. I thought it was a skillfully played game by Kyrian and Shadow, and now I find out that it was a stitch up from the beginning and a complete waste of time. Forget Shadow being outed on night one, the real reason the pasengers didn't stand a chance was because the Pirates folded like damp tissue, surrendered their victory like rats deserting a sinking ship, except the ship wasn't even sinking yet.

I won't be playing in any games that have recruitment unless there are balances in place ala Revolution!

Zar Peter
2007-08-03, 04:17 AM
While I agree with Jontom in some points about recruiting and balancing I want to point out that playing this game was very funny. The death scenes were without exception hillarious so I nearly think that everyone who didn't get a death scene lose this game (Faerwain and Shadow are the only Amenites who won :smallbiggrin: )

As I chatted with Shadow a few days before I said that I'm not sure if I want to join the Amenites or get a death scene. As it was clear my character wanted a death scene (I didn't really decided, it happened) I remembered I bought something at Trogs and asked Atreyu about it. Indurain rolled me a life jacket when it was clear I got lynched, I didn't knew it before.
But then I bribed Shadow to save me the night, I thought if there are no passengers around it could be that I get a night death scene with Indurain saving me :smallcool: , unfortunatly there where three passengers left. I'm curious whom the Amenits recruited the last night.

So actually I wanted three death scenes, but I got two, which is also quite great in this game!

Castaras
2007-08-03, 05:47 AM
Yeah, the death scenes were freaking awesome!

Well done AMEN, and Pirates. Nice victory piece.

Helgraf
2007-08-03, 06:16 AM
Ok, so if the pirates scried Lord Magtok on night one, why didn't you kill him on night two!?!

Hellooo, Pirates lost! If you had killed Lord Magtok on night 2, you might have won!

Personally I think deliberately bailing out on your role to join the "winning side" is cheating. If the pirates deliberately decided to become AMENites then that is cheating - they are deliberately losing as pirates so they can win as AMENites. The game just degenerates. It's one thing for Lord Magtok to be clever and recruit pirates so as to have a nice ready formed network, and quite another for the pirates to go to Lord Magtok and say "Hey, we'd like to be AMENites please". If you take it to it's furthest extent, then everyone decides they want to be AMENites and no-one lynches anyone and the pirates never kill anyone, and Lord Magtok just recruits everyone, and hey, everyone's a winner because we're all AMENites now.

So I'm hacked off with that. As far as I'm concerned, the pirates cheated and spoilt the game for everyone else. I thought it was a skillfully played game by Kyrian and Shadow, and now I find out that it was a stitch up from the beginning and a complete waste of time. Forget Shadow being outed on night one, the real reason the pasengers didn't stand a chance was because the Pirates folded like damp tissue, surrendered their victory like rats deserting a sinking ship, except the ship wasn't even sinking yet.

Well, I have to say, for once I'm largely in agreement with you, JX.

Atreyu the Masked LLama
2007-08-03, 06:58 AM
Actually, reviews of past games with the cult will show that cultist nightly recruitment isn't an overwhelming factor, but rather the fact that the Pirates and AMEN chose to work together was what led to the stacked odds. The simplest fix would be "recruitment doesnt' work against Pirates or Masons." That would still allow the cult to grow while cutting off the combo that went to work in this game. Of course, the game would also have been more balanced if you all would learn not to trust Shadow no matter what game he's in or role he has. :smalltongue:

Also, we've already discussed part of the plans for Pirates IV and the cult will NOT be a part of it. The cult was implemented for a few reasons and by the time Pirates IV rolls around the overall playing style will probably have shifted and also Pirates IV will rely more heavily on Teamwork that would not be possible with AMEN recruiting people.

Timberwolf
2007-08-03, 07:29 AM
I've just worked something out. DOH!

Oh, and did anyone remember my list of six that I said would have a higher proportion or pirates and everyone said I was spouting rubbish? It had two pirates on it. The reason I knew it would have a higher pirate density was because of the 9 people who voted for me, I knew three of them were not pirates for sure, and I knew that none of the remaining 6 were Legion because I asked Almighty Salmon.

Congratulations to Akaziel. I was almost convinced he was a member of the Legion of Fran. Well played.

Yeah, but you were as wrong as about me though.

Right up until the end anyway, just as I was wrong about you.

Jontom Xire
2007-08-03, 08:39 AM
Well, I have to say, for once I'm largely in agreement with you, JX.

<faints in amazement>


Yeah, but you were as wrong as about me though.

Right up until the end anyway, just as I was wrong about you.

To be honest you weren't high on my suspicions list, you just hit my weak spot which is that anyone who so rabidly keeps voting against me in the face of all the evidence must have a hidden agenda. I was wrong about Helgraf for the same reasons.

Oh and:

Pirates lost. Nyah nyah nyah!

Supagoof
2007-08-03, 09:06 AM
Ok, so if the pirates scried Lord Magtok on night one, why didn't you kill him on night two!?!

Hellooo, Pirates lost! If you had killed Lord Magtok on night 2, you might have won!

Personally I think deliberately bailing out on your role to join the "winning side" is cheating. If the pirates deliberately decided to become AMENites then that is cheating - they are deliberately losing as pirates so they can win as AMENites. The game just degenerates. It's one thing for Lord Magtok to be clever and recruit pirates so as to have a nice ready formed network, and quite another for the pirates to go to Lord Magtok and say "Hey, we'd like to be AMENites please". If you take it to it's furthest extent, then everyone decides they want to be AMENites and no-one lynches anyone and the pirates never kill anyone, and Lord Magtok just recruits everyone, and hey, everyone's a winner because we're all AMENites now.

So I'm hacked off with that. As far as I'm concerned, the pirates cheated and spoilt the game for everyone else. I thought it was a skillfully played game by Kyrian and Shadow, and now I find out that it was a stitch up from the beginning and a complete waste of time. Forget Shadow being outed on night one, the real reason the pasengers didn't stand a chance was because the Pirates folded like damp tissue, surrendered their victory like rats deserting a sinking ship, except the ship wasn't even sinking yet.


Sorry for tricking you Jontom. It's how the game is played.

Certainly you can say that the pirates copped out by using the knowledge of who Lord Magtok was to satisfy the objective for winning.

Don't let that objective become to complex though. Simply put, we wanted what everyone else who plays wants. We wanted to win the game.

As Pirates - meh?
As Amenities - okay.

By chance we got the baner night one and found Lord Magtok night one. - We didn't pick their roles, but when they are so nicely presented on a plate for us.....

Consider other factors.

Shadow essentially being outed as "baner". Shadow making contact with people - something he has done VERY WELL IN EVERY GAME (recall the pirates tried to KILL him night one) This equals Shadow as a good person to bring on your side. Add in the fact the Baner protects themself first until they can figure out another role, else they risk losing the game by perhaps protecting some random person (can be done, but not a smart decision.) So the pirates wanted to "remove" the baner or nullify his effectiveness. So what do you do?

Tell Lord Magtok you know who he is. Tell him to go get Shadow on night 2. Inform him that the pirates give him a choice - A. Death, or B. Recruitment of baner, protection of self, and allignment with pirates.

So, would you choose to die, or would you choose to have a 3 person learning advantage every night (1 kill = role revealed, 1 scry = role revealed, and 1 recruit = role revealed.)

Simple choice really.

We choose to live by the pirate motto - "Take what you can, and give nothing back." - We took the odds of winning over the odds of winning as pirates. Sorry. :smalltongue:

As soon as Shadow had been brought into AMEN - we told Lord Magtok to go ahead and bring a pirate into AMEN (me). This put the pirates and AMEN on the same side and objective - survive and win the game. We just needed one day to stay alive to said pirate into AMEN.

Sure, AMEN could have used the pirate they "recruited" to find out the rest, then send that info out to everyone. Heaven knows that Shadow and I were at ends getting AMEN to go down the right path...we had some pretty vocal PMs. He could just as easily given me up to the Legion (which goes against AMEN's objective.) I could have told Shadow right away who the pirates were (which in my view went against AMEN's objective - because if that happened, the pirates would kill Lord Magtok. AMEN could no longer recruit.) or us in AMEN could work to an agreement to take the whole game without killing an AMENity or a pirate - thus keeping AMEN + the pirates safe.

"But AMEN had Shadow, he could have protected Lord Magtok!"

Sure, but then you placing AMEN's livelihood on a coin flip. Do they take the risk of whether or not the baner protected himself or protects Lord Magtok? 50/50 chance really....

So sorry you feel that way Jontom. In truth, the BUMP killing that occurred on Whitehelm, I had thought up for you (I remember who started that game old friend) - I just didn't get it done and sent in before you were killed. Truth be told, us pirates were loving you - you kept everyone's focus on you, and off us.
But you started to figure it out. Also,since I knew your weren't a pirate & weren't in AMEN, I *looks down at feet* used that information and went ahead and got the bandwagon off you at the start. My logic seemed reasonable enough to convince people (we have a kill on night one to work off of people :smallamused: ....). It also gave me creditability as an honest man....plus when you were lynched, it would only help my creditability. Truth is I wanted to throw the game into chaos on the lynching side of things because that's the only thing that would kill either the pirates or AMEN.

Chatting with Atreyu on IM, I filled him in on what I was up too every step of the way - because as a Narrator you can kind of see what's happening, but you don't get the juicy details. I wanted them to have the juicy details. Atreyu can confirm what I'm telling you is true...

Sorry if you don't like the method at which we won the game. :smalleek: I won't apologize for taking advantage of all of those who went running to Shadow and revealed their roles. That was your choice to do so. :smallfrown:

I would like to formally apologize to the narrators - for finding the "weak spot" in the roles and exploiting it to a large advantage. Sorry to turn your game so lopsided. Great death scene's though!

For next game - yes you could have AMEN not recruit pirates, but you'd have to offer something else, like perhaps a reason or % of chance that anyone may not be recruited - otherwise AMEN could simply have the lynch mob attack the person they didn't recruit. Maybe have it so AMEN can't recruit people with roles? Because that way anyone in AMEN is just as likely to be paranoid about lynching as everyone else (besides seers) is, and also gives them a "seer" like ability.

Anyway, I've said my peace. I'm going to go enjoy some cult "kool-aid" now.

Khaldan
2007-08-03, 10:03 AM
HA! i knew ink was el jaspero!

Vonriel
2007-08-03, 10:16 AM
Rant in spoiler form, for those who don't wanna read about how unfair this seemed. :smallsigh: As soon as I went back and read all the deaths, and realized that not a single AMEN or pirate had died, I knew what was going on. Yes, the death scenes were fun and awesome and everything, but for those of us on the losing side, it felt like having this game go straight down the crapper. :smallannoyed: We had no chance at victory, because anyone who spoke out against AMEN or the pirates was either recruited, killed, or both, because you could do three in the span of one day and night. And nobody in AMEN would ever think about giving it away, because no one would've actually wanted to be on the losing side. As soon as I figured out what was going on, I had a rather lengthy discussion with the llama about how unfair this whole game was to the passengers. He was right when he said it was the people who make these things imbalanced, because this would've been fun to have a cult versus pirates versus passengers fight. But why go for fun when you can go for cheap. :smallannoyed: Glad I could actually say what I felt.. stupid rules about not being able to influence the game and all.

Anyway, LLama, Indurain, and Alarra. Well-run game, it had a lot of fun stuff in it, too bad the players wound up causing it to be less fun that it should've been. And I'm glad the pirates still lost, even if the people playing them still won.

For the future, as far as the cult goes, I think I have a fix: The cult cannot win as long as there are wolves left alive, the wolves cannot win as long as the cult is left alive, but the villagers only have to beat the wolves to win.

Also, I lost track: Did evnafets win as well? Or was he killed somewhere along the line?

Jontom Xire
2007-08-03, 10:22 AM
I'm not bothered about being tricked.

As to your question, what would I do in your position? I would kill Lord Magtok as soon as I could. Because I'm a pirate and I want pirates to win. If I did get recruited then of course I would play the game fairly and try my hardest to get the AMENites to win because that's how the game is played.

As to how to deal with Shadow? Simple, tell everyone the truth. A powerful weapon. Point out to everyone in the open that as baner Shadow is the obvious choice to be recruited as an AMENite and that NO-ONE should reveal their role to him and that he should be lynched at the earliest opportunity. Then don't kill Lord Magtok until after he has been lynched.

I appreciate that there was a certain confusion over how AMENite recruitment worked, but it seems to me that the main source of that confusion was ...errrr.. You and Shadow. I can't remember if it was Shadow or someone else who frequently stated that Lord Magtok was a spent force and of no use and that the wolves were the higher priority.

I appreciate your honest explanation, but I still feel it was a cop out and a cheat. To give a parallel, when I was at school about age ten we held a mock general election. Most of the children voted for the Tories because they wanted to be on the winning side, and of course because everyone did so they won. The Tory candidate's compelling political argument was "We're going to win so vote for us if you don't want to be a loser." The REALLY sad thing is that almost the same argument is used all the time in real politics. "Don't vote for <insert name here> because it will be a wasted vote - they're going to lose anyway".


I know this is only a silly message board game, but if you can't show a bit of moral backbone where it doesn't matter, what will you do when it does? Be like the Italians and change side several times like in WWII? Be like the French and collaborate? Be like the Spanish and pull out of Iraq because you're afraid terrorists might blow up a few more trains? Or be like the British and fight like bastards even when you think you're gonna lose?

I know this is only a SMBG, so I put this in a spoiler. I guess I'm just too principled and so get too het up by stuff like this.

HyramGraff
2007-08-03, 10:35 AM
Of course, the game would also have been more balanced if you all would learn not to trust Shadow no matter what game he's in or role he has. :smalltongue:

I very much agree with that. Is that why I was killed on night two?

Supagoof
2007-08-03, 11:16 AM
I'm not bothered about being tricked.

As to your question, what would I do in your position? I would kill Lord Magtok as soon as I could. Because I'm a pirate and I want pirates to win. If I did get recruited then of course I would play the game fairly and try my hardest to get the AMENites to win because that's how the game is played.

I guess that you and us interpit the rules differently. We choose not to leave part of our fates up to chance.



I appreciate that there was a certain confusion over how AMENite recruitment worked, but it seems to me that the main source of that confusion was ...errrr.. You and Shadow. I can't remember if it was Shadow or someone else who frequently stated that Lord Magtok was a spent force and of no use and that the wolves were the higher priority.
Thank you. I was trying to keep everyone confused.



I appreciate your honest explanation, but I still feel it was a cop out and a cheat. Again, a varience of opinion. I respect yours, but my perspective is different.

To cheat would be to use a different account to get multiple roles in the game.

We played within the rules, and even with the exploitation of the AMEN recruitment, we did nothing wrong.

[Insert story about reasoning]

Back in college, I used to play with friends a certain game called "Duke Nukem". Now one of my friends had difficulty in shooting players because they would jump all around him whenever they were near him. This effect came to be know as "tiggering" amongst us, as it was a good tactic to get away from being killed. One night, after many frustrations, he exploded angrily, screaming "WHY DO YOU HAVE TO JUMP? I JUST CAN"T KILL YOU IF YOU JUMP. STOP CHEATING BY JUMPING!

My friends reply "but I have a jump button"

So why is it cheating if it's allowed in the game?


Hellooo? Pirate.

"Well, yes mate. See, I'm dishonest. And a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. Honestly. It's the honest ones you need to watch out for, because you never know when they're going to do something incredibly... stupid. "

Cheating, I disagree. Again, variance of opinion.




I know this is only a silly message board game, but if you can't show a bit of moral backbone where it doesn't matter, what will you do when it does? In a game where you are supposed to lie, trick, confuse, and whatever else it takes to win - you bring in morality?

Again, sorry you feel that way. This is just a silly message board game, and I hope you don't read too much more into it then that.


Yep, pirates lost! Go AMEN! Good job.

Shadow
2007-08-03, 11:19 AM
1. Shadow then very neatly tricked me by saying I should leave the investigation into his hands. At the time I assumed that Supagoof was kept alive because Shadow was trying to get deeper into the pirates - find more of them out. Then I got killed and kind of lost interest a little.

It's only now I realise that Shadow wanted me to back away from Supagoof because he knew Supagoof was a pirate (what else could he be) and got him recruited into the AMENites. I unwittingly handed the AMENites the entire pirate contigent on a plate. I suspect now that I was killed because I knew SupaGoof was a pirate.

2. Thinking a bit further, how can the AMENites not win unless they have really bad luck in about the first 4 or 5 turns?
1. And you went with it, thank you.
At the time, that's exactly the reason that I wanted him to live. Well, that and we were both already AMENites.
And actually, Supagoof was recruited before I was (I think). 'Goof got in on night one, while I was being attacked (I assume). I was brought in on night two. But no one contacted me to tell me who the other AMENites were until it was too late to fix it. Had we spoken about the whole situation earlier, I simply would have told you that 'Goof was indeed the Seer. Problem solved.
I logged in the next morning fully intent on hanging 'Goof only to find that I had a PM from him.
A LONG and complicated game between the two of us was then begun.
The first problem was that I knew that you knew that 'Goof was a Pirate.
I was first thinking about bringing you in to solve the problem, but that doesn't help the fact that you were about to be lynched and only barely escaped with your life. The next day was the same, so we decided to end it there.

You handed AMEN nothing. We already had what we needed by that point.
2. See below.
The power of recruitment is just too powerful even with only one person starting out especially when they can recruit the pirates as well giving the AMENites control of the night time killings as well day time lynches after a few nights of recruiting barring bad luck as JX said.

Just a suggestion but it might give the passengers a better chance if recruiting was cut down to every second or third night or if pirates can't be recruited.
I completely disagree.
It took AMEN EVERY SINGLE NIGHT OF THE GAME, WITHOUT LOSING EVEN A SINGLE MEMBER to win the game.
Those are nigh impossible odds!
Having a single cult member to start, even with a recruitment every night, only one single member can be lost for each bad guy that dies. And that assumes that the baddie that gets the axe isn't a cult member.
That assumes that the leader isn't killed in the night, or by lynch. EVER!

The rules for the cult are near impossible to generate a win.
Leave them as is.

Haha, good game all. Thanks for the game everyone, and thanks to Atreyu, Indy, and Alarra.

Well done, my pirates and Amen mates. 7803 posts looted in total, not a bad haul eh?
Not bad at all, my good man. Not bad at all.

Atreyu the Masked LLama
2007-08-03, 11:21 AM
You all do realize that after the headaches and mess that cult caused us, we won't be re-using it until at least Pirates VIII, right?? Ah well, it was fun to write recruitment scenes for it.

Also, if everything goes as planned, and people A) get into the plan, and B) play wisely, the next game will be very slanted in the villagers favor, especially the masons.

Yes, Goof and Shadow were practically at each other's throats. I am very surprised neither of them turned on the other.

Goof: Apology accepted. Just don't do it again.

Shadow
2007-08-03, 11:24 AM
Of course, the game would also have been more balanced if you all would learn not to trust Shadow no matter what game he's in or role he has. :smalltongue:
Quoted for truth.

And that's getting sigged very soon!

Madmal
2007-08-03, 11:24 AM
Game sucked for the rest of us who weren't pirates but still...if my memory doesn't fail me...

First time i've ever been killed at night!! yaaay!:smallbiggrin:

probalby it was caused because i was from Fran but still, i didn't feel much cooperation than when i was a werewolf or the Mole on a Mafia game.

seriously, most of my deads are from auto-lynching...with dying-because-of-the-lovers-rule and lynched-as-a-test-subject on a second place...


Of course, the game would also have been more balanced if you all would learn not to trust Shadow no matter what game he's in or role he has. :smalltongue:

also QFT

Shadow
2007-08-03, 11:41 AM
Yes, Goof and Shadow were practically at each other's throats. I am very surprised neither of them turned on the other.
Also quoted for truth.
Both of us were so stubborn not to be the first one to giva anything up that it almost all went down the tubes.

I fingered Faerwain to simply prove to Goof that I could and would find and kill them if he didn't start treating me as an ally.

Again, sorry 'bout that faerwain....

Supagoof
2007-08-03, 11:44 AM
I very much agree with that. Is that why I was killed on night two?

Actually Hyram, you were just picked at random on night two. Killing you implicated no pirate. You hadn't pointed at one of us, and none of us had pointed at you, I think. Sorry, wish we had more logic then that to offer you...


Of course, the game would also have been more balanced if you all would learn not to trust Shadow no matter what game he's in or role he has.

QFT


Yes, Goof and Shadow were practically at each other's throats. I am very surprised neither of them turned on the other.
That would be going against the rules of AMEN - objective, you know, to do whatever it takes to ensure AMEN stays alive. Though yes, we didn't want to give until we got. Bassetking died because I shared his name with the pirates and they didn't have anyone else at that point, even though Shadow and I wanted to bring him into AMEN.

HyramGraff
2007-08-03, 12:46 PM
Actually Hyram, you were just picked at random on night two. Killing you implicated no pirate. You hadn't pointed at one of us, and none of us had pointed at you, I think. Sorry, wish we had more logic then that to offer you...

Random is random, I won't complain about that. (Actually, random gut feeling was how I killed one of the banners on night two in WW VII.)

Bassetking
2007-08-03, 01:41 PM
Actually Hyram, you were just picked at random on night two. Killing you implicated no pirate. You hadn't pointed at one of us, and none of us had pointed at you, I think. Sorry, wish we had more logic then that to offer you...



QFT

That would be going against the rules of AMEN - objective, you know, to do whatever it takes to ensure AMEN stays alive. Though yes, we didn't want to give until we got. Bassetking died because I shared his name with the pirates and they didn't have anyone else at that point, even though Shadow and I wanted to bring him into AMEN.

D'awww, shucks, Goof.

Shadow
2007-08-03, 01:46 PM
D'awww, shucks, Goof.
He tells the truth.

From a PM conversation that we had:


*snip*

I'd rather keep the pirates on our side (with the AMENities) then against it, so I think it's in the best interest to get the other seer on our (AMEN) side (recruiting into AMEN or, if nothing else, elimination - we still have smellie hippie after all)

We may not have to recruit Jontom. The crowd may just kill him outright....in which case send another name to Kyrian. I'll help you climb out of your mess, but giving up the pirates is not something I will do. It helps me in no ways.I disagree about needind to recruit "Alarra" as (s)he's all but worthless to us.
As is "smellie_hippie"
You know the Pirates.
I know everyone else.
What do we need scries for?

This game might just be salvagable for you/us if Jontom gets lynched....

If he does indeed get lynched, the plan of attack will be to recruit/kill the Legoinaries as fast as possible.

In the event that Jontom gets lynched, Bassetking should be recruited instead of killed.
Kill Almighty Salmon instead.
That leaves only 3 of the Legion.

*snip*There was a WHOLE lot that led up to (and followed) that, but you'll get the idea.
I always save the fun ones in case I need them as evidence later. And this entire conversation was FUN!

Alarra
2007-08-03, 02:59 PM
I'm not going to reply to everything here, but just state that I really don't think that the cult rules are imbalanced in general. There were a lot of very lucky factors that alligned at the very beginning of the game to turn things the way they went.

I know that the cult has not worked this well in any other game in which it has been implemented. For example, the one time I was a cult member, at no point in the game were there more than me and one other person because they kept getting killed right away. And I think that would be a much more common way for this to work out. The odds of the pirates actually scrying the cult leader on night one are really very slim.

whitehelm
2007-08-03, 04:40 PM
I would like to take this time to mention that the rules should've been clearer. I assumed most of the game that AMEN couldn't recruit pirates, like in a previous game which I can't remember (recruitments succeeded on a 50% chance, and the pirates/werewolves/whatever would just be an auto failed recruitment), which is why I wanted to team with AMEN to eliminate the pirates, then allow them to recruit all of us. If it had been made clear in the rules that this wasn't the case this game I would have brought up the fact that no AMEN had been killed at least as far back when Artemis was killed (you'll notice I made a post asking about recruitment around then).

As it was I didn't think to pm the mods at that point and forgot about the issue, until near the end of the game, right before I pm'd shadow pleading to be recruited so I could win. Unfortunately they were in the middle of recruiting the pirates, the end of which would coincide with the killing of the last passenger.

Timberwolf
2007-08-03, 04:52 PM
<faints in amazement>



To be honest you weren't high on my suspicions list, you just hit my weak spot which is that anyone who so rabidly keeps voting against me in the face of all the evidence must have a hidden agenda. I was wrong about Helgraf for the same reasons.

Oh and:

Pirates lost. Nyah nyah nyah!

Yep, that's exactly why I voted for you too, I was after self preservation and after that splendid argument, I felt the only way to ensure my own survival was, whether you were a pirate or not, was to do my level best to have you strapped to the anchor and sent swimming.

Zar Peter
2007-08-03, 05:07 PM
Besides all talk about balancing and cheating: I can't see where the pirates or the Amenites did anything against the rules and I must admit that coming through the game without the loss of ONE member is a great afford I have to admire.
The circumstances helped a little bit, it was very lucky for the Pirates to scry Lord Magtok at night 1 and to choose Indurain for a Kill at night 1 and for Lord Magtok to recruit a Pirate at night 1 (if I understood that correct). The odds that that happens on night 1 were not very high I think.
And about cheating: I tricked the narrators, I'm the only passenger who survived the journey, I made it to the secure harbour and walked into the town. A car accident could happen to everyone so I wasn't killed in this game :)!

Shadow
2007-08-03, 05:19 PM
Thanks for seeing it our way ZP.

If it weren't for the specific circumstances surrounding the first night of the game, I'm sure that things would have gone much differently.

Namely, I would have given you 'Goof on day 3 or 4.
Faerwain would have followed.
Pingcode or Helgraf would have been next (and I would have been wrong).
Magtok or janusnori would have been after that.

It would have been a run similar to what I did in WW:VII.
Bloody. Bloody as hell.

There is not a single doubt in my mind that the villagers would have won the game.
No doubt at all.

I may have possibly been able to spare Kyrian and save the win for AMEN, but I'm not sure. Chances are that AMEN would have lost.

It's not the rules that gave AMEN the win, for as I've stated, a Cult win is damn near impossible under normal circumstances.
These were not normal circumstances.

In fact, I'm willing to bet that the Pirates' first reaction upon waking in the morning and reading that I had been saved (and was therefore the Baner) would have been:
"Oh, beep! We can't kill Shadow? We're beepED!"
At least I'd like to think so....

Ink
2007-08-03, 05:31 PM
^ Sorry, mate. It was "I wish he'd put on a damn pair of pants already!"



I'm curious whom the Amenits recruited the last night.

So actually I wanted three death scenes, but I got two, which is also quite great in this game!

That would be me.

Greedy, greedy! Sorry you didn't get your extra one, I'd already sent in the kill before the day ended and I didn't know you'd been saved until after the night was over.


HA! i knew ink was el jaspero!

Good on you :smallsmile:. I don't think many people suspected me until I came out and made that little scry announcement on Artemis on day 7. Sorry, Artemis, you were just the most viable target at that point. I'm sorry to do that to you in your first ever game.



Personally I think deliberately bailing out on your role to join the "winning side" is cheating.


Well we were not cheating. We played well within the rules of the game. At the time when the Pirates formed the alliance with AMEN there was no "winning side". AMEN had only one member, Kyrian. We merely agreed to make an alliance and cooperate to increase our chances of victory together. The game could still have gone either way. The alliance with Kyrian gave us the upper hand, that's what alliances are for anyway, but the passengers still had a chance, by finding the Pirates and especially by killing Kyrian.

In any game where there are more than two sides fighting each other it's not unexpected that two parties would work together, or at least I as a passenger would expect it. In fact I believe the passengers were out to do the same as well. "Don't bother about AMEN. Find the Pirates, kill the Pirates, and after that Magtok can recruit us all into AMEN." Wasn't that the general sentiment at some point? Except that the passengers didn't consider that AMEN was already working with the Pirates. Actually, with Shadow being an obvious member of AMEN I can't think why anyone wouldn't expect that.

We could have killed Kyrian after the first night, sure, but as Goof said we chose the best strategy based on what we had at that point. Personally this was the first game for me that had a cult, and I was rather interested in seeing what new dimension AMEN would bring to the game, rather than eliminating Lord Magtok outright and turning the game into Werewolf Classic.

Shadow
2007-08-03, 05:37 PM
We could have killed Kyrian after the first night, sure, but as Goof said we chose the best strategy based on what we had at that point.
And Goof knew, and should have told you, that had that happened, I would have posted a Cast List openly in the thread.
That would have ended the Pirates in a matter of days.

Seriously.
Days.

That was one of the problems that Goof and I had coordinating things.
He didn't want to tell me who the other Pirates were, but he wanted me to tell him who the Seer was, etc.
He said that you were all worried (rightly so) that I might betray you.

It was an extremely tense TWO WEEKS of PM's going back and forth before we finally got anything accomplished!
By FAR the most work that Ive ever had to do in one of these games (but that's the way that I like them).

Timberwolf
2007-08-03, 06:11 PM
I was greatly surprised to find the PM saying "You have been recruited by AMEN"

However, while I may have been able to see past the fact it was Shadow doing the recruiting (and I trusted him about as far as I can throw the granite staue "LLama in Glory", all 3 storeys in height of it), I kept quiet about it at the time because I couldn't quite see the problem, but there was something that felt very very wrong about AS giving Shadow the names of all the Legionaires. It felt very wrong indeed. And I was right to listen to the itch at the back of my neck. Because without that, Shadow would never have known I was a Legionaire. It may have been the "it's Shadow, throw him overboard first before you tell him anything" urge but it felt wrong. not that I could pay as much attention as I'd have liked. Ah well, I was glad to be chosen to hoist the passengers up the yardarm and I look forward to receiving my additions to my post count. I may even make Firbolg...

Ink
2007-08-03, 06:11 PM
^^ You weren't an AMEN yet at that point I think.

Fear not, Shadow, I know about your two weeks of hard PMing. In fact I felt like a phone-tapper at a point, although I was highly amused by some of it. :smallwink:

Well, now you've heard it straight from the horse's mouth, Jontom. Mr. Horse claims he would have released a juicy list had the Pirates not formed the alliance with AMEN. It was just the best strategy for us to ally with AMEN to win the game and subsequently get Shadow pulled into the cult, we weren't trying to cheat or to spoil the game for anyone else.

V: Heheh, I suffered from the full inbox problem too. I constantly wish we could go back to having more PM space like we used to but I doubt that'll ever happen.

Shadow
2007-08-03, 06:33 PM
You now of the two weeks of hard PMing that I was doing with 'Goof, sure, but when you take into account that, at the same time, I was trying to convince certain players not to go after X for one reason or another....

I had Jontom and evnafets to deal with, who both had a TON of you in their sights....

And then you add in all the PM's that I was recieving from players that just wanted to get more involved....

And then there were the Seers to guide away from certain people (without raising suspicion)....

And then there were the other games that I was in (even if I did neglect them some)....

I was helping you guys WAY more than you even know, and that was before we had truly come to any sort of solid partnership.
It was done in good faith that the partnership would eventually materialize.

I almost got fed up with the wait and went after all of you!

Seriously, I had to clean out my in-box every 36-48 hours.
There was one day that I cleaned it out (down to about 30) before I went to work. When I got home from work at 4:30 in the morning I went to bed. When I awoke the following morning, I had an e-mail telling me that my in-box was FULL!

Vonriel
2007-08-03, 11:44 PM
Wasn't that the general sentiment at some point? Except that the passengers didn't consider that AMEN was already working with the Pirates. Actually, with Shadow being an obvious member of AMEN I can't think why anyone wouldn't expect that.
Ok, this response is a tad late, but.. Ink, therein lies the problem. When people think Shadow is on their side, and are given no evidence to the contrary - he worked very hard from what I can tell to keep himself away from suspicion, and I admit I did some very stupid things before I died - they follow what he says. People gather around certain other prominent people in these games, hoping that they'll help them out, and the passengers probably believed Shadow was going to do what he did in WWVII; a bloody and brutal slaughter of the pirates. However, people didn't take into consideration - either until they were already dead, like me, or until it was way too late to do anything, like Helgraf - that AMEN, and by extent, Shadow, and probably all the other usually prominent people, were working with the pirates for a combined victory (or dead), which basically meant the villagers were screwed. As much as you tried to say this was a three-way game, it wasn't; it was a two-way game, with the pirates basically getting 2 night kills and a free day kill after about day six or so. :smallannoyed: Yes, had night one not gone the way it did, it might not have turned out this way, but I have a feeling Shadow may have tried for a similar victory once recruited. :smalltongue:

Also, in reading some of the post-game responses, people have mentioned not trusting Shadow, but here's the thing: Nobody could've pulled off a successful lynch of Shadow early-game, because everyone suspected he was the baner or a "good guy," and so the person trying for the lynch would've been killed. I think sometime during the mid-game, there may have been a day - a single day - where there was a chance to get him lynched, but by then the plans were in motion, and his lynching couldn't stop them. Basically, there was no chance for us good guys to lynch him, because after that one golden opportunity, the game was solidly in AMENs hands.

:smallsigh: I guess I just can't get over how.. cheated I felt when I realized what was going on. This wasn't a game, the idea that the villagers stood a chance is a fevered dream some mad man may have had while delirious with scurvy in the bowels of the ship. Yes, there was a chance that the villagers could've accidentally killed Magtok, but how often has Kyrian actually been lynched before someone finally realized he was lying low and surviving? Hell, for the time I was actually participating, I can't even recall him being active enough to escape autolynching. So yeah, saying the villagers actually stood a chance is like saying shouting loud enough will stop an avalanche from crushing you. Not to mention that I died early on, again. Will I ever survive past the first few days of a Pirates game? :smallsigh:

Ok, I think I have the bad thoughts of this game out of my head and onto paper. Again, narrators, you ran what should've been a good game, it's just too bad the players took off and mucked things up.

Edit: In defense of the cult: Everyone who's saying it's overpowered is looking at the best-case scenario, probably a long shot in any other game, which is how this one turned out. I don't think it's particularly over- or under-powered, but rather how much the people running the cult and running the wolves want to break the game. Because, really? I don't think narrators should have to plan for a scenario where pirates - bloodthirsty pirates who really don't want anything but to kill people and steal their post counts - would team up with a cult and subvert themselves to the cult's rule.

whitehelm
2007-08-04, 02:54 AM
I have no problems with what the pirates/AMEN did, I would've probably done the same thing if I had the chance. I just felt a little let down after having assumed the wrong thing about recruiting most of the game. I did mean what I said to shadow when I said congratulations.


Edit: I would also like to say that next time I will get revenge on you all!!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jontom Xire
2007-08-04, 05:19 AM
Well, now you've heard it straight from the horse's mouth, Jontom. Mr. Horse claims he would have released a juicy list had the Pirates not formed the alliance with AMEN. It was just the best strategy for us to ally with AMEN to win the game and subsequently get Shadow pulled into the cult, we weren't trying to cheat or to spoil the game for anyone else.


Ink, and all others, you didn't ALLY with AMEN. You sacrificed yourself to it. You were Pirates. As pirates your goal was to win AS PIRATES. It may have been a hard game to play, but personally I don't think it would have been. Whether it was or not, your role was to play it. Not bitch about how hard it is and decide to just give up before you had barely started.

All the excuses I hear from pirates are "We couldn't have won as pirates so we decided to join/ally/team up with AMEN". It's a pitiful excuse. I appreciate you don't see it the same way, and I appreciate you just wanted to win. But that's the thing. I have zero respect for people who buy computer games and then go out and buy the cheat guide, and then boast to all their friends how they won the game in record time. I have zero respect for people who use cheats when playing online games. I have zero respect for people who pretend to be newbies or very bad at a game so as to play against other people who are genuinely newbies or bad at a game just so that they can win. Such victories have no value. I appreciate that it may have been a bit challenging to win without losing anyone, but fundamentally once you decided to give up playing pirates and instead join AMEN, the AMENites had won.

Now as to the cult and game balance:

1) Networking.

The cult prevents any roles from coming forward publically. It prevents formation of networks because at any time one person in the network may get compromised and then the whole network is blown wide open. I was seriously concerned at one point and thought of trying to persuade Shadow to form a cellular network like I used in Paranoia, but it was too late. Everyone had already flocked in and contacted Shadow. It might have helped if the roles had been properly and clearly defined on page one before the game even began. Then we all could have worked out that Shadow was an AMENite and lynched him early on.

Anyway the point is that the presence of the cult gives the pirates an advantage because the passengers cannot effectively form a network and the pirates already have one. However the pirates have a matching disadvantage in that if their network is penetrated they are almost certain to lose the game because the AMENites will either take them over or sacrifice some of them to gain credibility with the passengers.

2) Factionism

This is the big one. The passengers can trust each other even less than in normal WW games because anyone can be a cultist. Until they find Lord Magtok, someone who was previously trustworthy can become untrustworthy at any time. So being a passenger is made harder because of the cultists.

As people have pointed out, trying to play the AMENites is difficult. However unless they are very unlucky (as they were in this game), and Lord Magtok remains hidden, they have an advantage in that the pirates cannot truly trust each other, neither can the masons. If they penetrate the pirates, they get the pirate name list and can win lots of trust from the passengers by spilling names. If they find a mason, they can easily play masons against passengers. So long as they remain hidden, especially Lord Magtok, their winning strategy is to penetrate each network and then play the different factions against each other.

The pirates also is much harder to play than usual. The pirates, IMHO, should have won this game easily. They outed Shadow, making him a sure target for AMENite recruitment, so they could get him lynched easily. And they scried Lord Magtok, so they could kill him at their leisure. Normally they need to be paranoid about being penetrated by AMENites, and their sole goal in the early stages should be to find and kill Lord Magtok before one of them gets recruited. In this game they did it night one - they should have had an easy win. I can't believe they chose to lose.

And that is the crux of factionism. It should be made illegal, one way or the other, to betray your faction. In WWIV all the other masons thought I was betraying the villagers and other masons to one group of werewolves. That group of werewolves initially thought that the person who started the whole "buddy with the villagers" thing was betraying them. In fact both factions were going for an alliance and when we learnt that joint victory was impossible betrayed the other faction so that their faction won.

In this game the narrators knew what was happening but couldn't really stop it. In other games there is no way to stop people who want the early win or the thrill of being in the cult, from secretly getting themselves recruited. The only option that both makes the game more fair for pirates and prevents cheating is if whenever the AMENites try to recruit a pirate or mason, that person dies instead.


Because, really? I don't think narrators should have to plan for a scenario where pirates - bloodthirsty pirates who really don't want anything but to kill people and steal their post counts - would team up with a cult and subvert themselves to the cult's rule.

I agree. Pirates are anti-authoritarianists. Cults are the ultimate in authoritarianism where everyone's very sole and will is subverted to the cult leader.

Anyway, I'm sure you're all bored now so I'll shut up.

===EDIT===

To sort of echo Whitehelm, I have no objection to what the AMENites did. If I was playing Lord Magtok and the pirates gave me a choice between losing instantly or having the win handed to me on a plate I'd take it. I have no objections to what Shadow did. He was recruited with no choice, he didn't choose to become an AMENite, but when he became a part of that faction he played that to the full. I think I'm hearing that SupaGoof was recruited before Shadow. If so then he had no choice, and again played fair. It would be the right and natural thing to try and win the game however he could.

What I do have an objection to is all the pirates who actively decided to betray their faction.

whitehelm
2007-08-04, 06:47 AM
From what I understand Supagoof was the one recruited right after shadow. This was one of the first conditions for Magtok to remain alive.

Also, before you mention "echoing" me, I'm fine with what the pirates did also, me being one of those wanting the passengers to get recruited at the end. If you're in the winning group at the end, you win. That's the rule. Feel free to disagree.

Keledrath
2007-08-04, 08:36 AM
Bookboy bellows from the afterlife
You people are horrible! Look at Revolution!

Supagoof
2007-08-04, 10:51 AM
Pirates is not revolution. If I wanted to play revolution, then I'd post there. Stop comparing this game to others with different rule sets. :smalltongue:

Yes, I was recruited AFTER Shadow. That was the plan. It was the smart thing to do. You play a game, weigh your options, and go with what helps your team win.

Part of what you say Jontom is true, incidentally - that was our backup plan. As pirates, we had after night one, planned to and did recruit Shadow - fully trying to get a list of people he knew out of them, while maintaining a stranglehold on AMEN with the threat of killing Lord Magtok. Get the list, kill Lord Magtok, get Shadow lynched, walk to a pretty good pirate victory. You should all THANK Shadow for keeping his mouth quiet and not letting the pirates get a hold of what he knew. As was mentioned, Shadow and I (on the same team with AMEN) were at odds with each other as the best way to win. I finally convinced him that AMEN would die if we didn't continue to work with the pirates, and he convinced me of how screwed the pirates would be if he wanted too. Before we came to an agreement, Shadow had 9 people whom he didn't know their role...so yeah - working together was best for AMEN and best for Pirates.

But I play by the rules....and after being recruited into AMEN, my best interest went from getting the list of names for the pirates (Pirate Victory) too getting what we needed done for AMEN (AMEN victory) - the fact that we did both (by keeping the pirates alive) is just credit to SHADOW's amazing charisma - for lack of a better word. Since I was in AMEN, and te priority was to keep AMEN alive, then even if I betrayed the rest of the pirates - there would still be one left, ME, which would have impaired AMENs ability to win the game. (Because to keep one pirate alive for the rest of the game would be neigh impossible for AMEN to do.)

We went for what was the best way to win. To not do such would be like hitting a home-run out of the baseball park and only walking to first base. You wouldn't do - that would be stupid. To say we pirates didn't take what was best to our advantage would be calling us stupid. Stop with calling us cheaters - we didn't cheat, and please stop with calling us cop outs for hitting a home run on night one and walking around the bases.

So theorize what you want about whether or not it was the right way to win, but please stop with the public insinuations about cheating or taking the easy road. It wasn't easy - and I think many would agree it was the Smart thing to do.

Helgraf
2007-08-04, 11:14 AM
Mmmm, lookit all the bad blood over the game. Ya know, that's plenty enough reason for me. I've seen some minor annoyances raised in other games, but there's some serious unhappy here going on going by the posts, serious disagreeements about the whole notion of whether this was 'dirty pool' or not. And the piratecult's argument seems to be "It's legal, we had to work _really_ hard, stop making it sound like it shouldn't have been when it clearly was."

Usually the brilliant plays in these games are applauded, even by those who were tripped up by them - see Mafia III, for example, or even Werewolf Classic IV, though in the end the wolves lost. But this time, the sneaky plan is being actively booed. Ya know ... that should tell you something.

It would appear that - legality aside - something about how events were manipulated in this game torqued people off, considerably moreso than any other werewolf game prior, and whether or not you think it's the smart move, or perhaps more importantly, the 'right' move, Jontom is essentially correct. The pirates subverted their own victory for that of the cult. They deliberately torpedoed their team to join another winning team. They sold themselves out. They made a move that advanced everyone who played a pirate but at the same time cost the pirate team by effectively removing the pirate team and giving the cult an extra kill ability every night. And that rankles people who think the game should operate according to certain gentlemen's rules that - for better or worse - weren't actually in the instructions. Of course, the fact that people were expecting gentlemen's rules in a cutthroat game of betrayal and mob logic amuses me on a certain level.

Castaras
2007-08-04, 11:18 AM
From what I can see, there are only a few things that are important here:


Yes, AMEN won, and had all the pirates recruited. This means it was an AMEN victory, with the pirates getting an AMEN victory as well.
Yes, the "Cult" thing in werewolf is pretty screwed. But - it isn't going to be in pirates again. So no need to worry about it.
We've played this game. Some people are saying it wasn't that fun for them because they weren't on the winning team. So what? I found it immensly enjoyable, even though I lost. *shrugs* It was fun, the death scenes were funny, and the narrators did an awesome job. Hats off to them. In fact, I'll go heal them in SMBG heal/hurt now, as thanks. (Except Indy, 'course...:smallamused:)
The game is over. The fourth one will be up soon. Let's go concentrate on that one, shall we?
Oh, and did I mention that it's just a silly game. A very silly game in this case. No need to get so worked up about it! Isn't the end of the world if you lose! :smalltongue:


*Fades back into lurkdom*

Zar Peter
2007-08-04, 12:13 PM
Hear, Hear!

I applaude Castaras, she spoke out my thoughts.
Especially the last sentence about the end of the world should everyone remember when playing this game.

Shadow
2007-08-04, 12:30 PM
Part of what you say Jontom is true, incidentally - that was our backup plan. As pirates, we had after night one, planned to and did recruit Shadow - fully trying to get a list of people he knew out of them, while maintaining a stranglehold on AMEN with the threat of killing Lord Magtok. Get the list, kill Lord Magtok, get Shadow lynched, walk to a pretty good pirate victory.I knew something was wrong with the whole situation, but I couldn't put my finger on it at the time. That's exactly why I kept threatening to post the list in the thread (and I almost did a few times).
We did have fun plaing that one, didn't we 'Goof?

You should all THANK Shadow for keeping his mouth quiet and not letting the pirates get a hold of what he knew. As was mentioned, Shadow and I (on the same team with AMEN) were at odds with each other as the best way to win. I finally convinced him that AMEN would die if we didn't continue to work with the pirates, and he convinced me of how screwed the pirates would be if he wanted too. Before we came to an agreement, Shadow had 9 people whom he didn't know their role...so yeah - working together was best for AMEN and best for Pirates.
WhooHoo! Go Shadow!

Seriously, I could have at any time, and was about to on a few occasions, TOTALLY screwe the Pirates over.
But I was a member of AMEN. And there was a Pirate in AMEN. And then there were two.
What was I to do?

If I go after any of the Pirates, they kill Lord Magtok.
AMEN (and I) lose.

If they kill Lord Magtok, I post the lst in the thread and the Pirates are all lynched in a matter of days. Even the ones that I didn't know about wouldn't have been hard for us to find at all.
But that just kills more members of AMEN, putiing me at an even bigger disadvantage. AMEN can't recruit anymore, and now we're missing members, too.

The List of known Roles was my TRUMP card.
I kept hanging it over their heads, as it grew bigger and bigger, to get them to reveal the rest of the Pirates to me.
They resisted.
More people were lynched and killed.
The list of unknown Roles only grew smaller.

Eventually it was their paranoia that got the better of them, I think.
After arguing with Goof for 2 weeks I decided that I would show them that I wasn't messing around and had Faerwain lynched.

The Pirates came forward to me immediately after.

I'm not sure that you all understand what a tense game/decision it was for both of us.

*goes to look for the PM's with Goof to share*
brb
*comes back*

Conversation between Goof and I that started the morning that I was about to hang him.
Part of the confusion was that I was recruited into AMEN on night two, but this was the first contact that I'd had from anyone in AMEN. It was day four I believe.

*note that this was only what Goof was TELLING me. He never hinted at betraying me (or it would have failed, obviously).
Open all the spoilers and read from the top. WARNING: There are a LOT of spoilers!








Heh, all part of the game really, responses in Red below.....



Hello fellow AMENity. We have much to talk about......

Goof
Indeed.
We do have much to talk about.

First: Why you happen to think that I'm an AMENite. Becasue after you came out as the Baner I asked Lord Magtok to recruit you....

Second: Why you felt the need to finally contact me. Now that we both are AMENities, our goals should be alligned.

Third: Why you were too scared to do it before. Not scared, just planning the path I'd take.
Fourth: Why you lied and told JX that you'd already contacted me. I may have mentioned that I've been in contact - but never told him I contacted you directly.

Fifth: Why you tried to kill me on night one. You are a very dangerous person and very smart. So smart in fact I didn't want you to mess up my plans. Now that the ball has begun rolling, I'm pretty certain the pirates can survive and win even if I'm killed.

You're luck that you sent this. EXTREMELY lucky.
The fact of the matter is that I was logging on with but a sinlge purpose this morning. That purpose was to hang you.... Hippie....You could hang me, but I'm not hippie. I'm smart enough to keep who Hippie is a secret. :smalltongue:
Eagerly awaiting the answers to these questions (even though I know the answers to most of them....)

--Shadow

Luck has nothing to do with it. I know you are smart, and I know who Lord Magtok is. Now think like this - if I'm a pirate, and I want the best chance of winning, what would I do?

Night 1 -
Found the AMEN leader - Found scry night 1.
Make arrangement with him - his life vs. his help. He helps, he stays alive. AMEN keeps recruiting until AMEN wins the game. He doesn't help, pirates kill him in the night. Gives Cult the chance to learn about 3 roles each night. 1 through kill, 1 through recruitment, 1 through scry.

Day 1 - Find through save that Shadow is Baner or at very least in league with baner. Have Lord Magtok recruit him to AMEN. Keeps baner away from protecting others - solidifies AMEN security. Start bandwagon breakup schematic - throwing everyone's assumptions way off base.

Night 2 - Have Shadow brought into AMEN. -

Day 2 - survive and consistently mix up voting assumptions by throwing out false ideas with reasonable logic.

Night 3 - Have Lord Magtok recruit pirate into AMEN. Again, to build trust. Also, gives focus to AMEN's goals.

The pirates aren't in this to win so much as they are in it to survive and take over the ship. Alligned with AMEN = very powerful method to do such.

So that's the idea anyway. What I've been telling Jontom is to help our plans....

So why talk now? Because the store has opened and the narrators know what us pirates are up too. We just want to keep our plans in tact.

I've checked with Alarra (narrator, not role). AMEN stops growing if Lord Magtok gets killed. So it's in his best interest to stay alive. Even if he's protected by the Baner, putting his name out there for the lynch mob would probably be enough to have him killed, so he gets the advantage of having the pirates not jump on the bandwagon to lynch him either.

Now, you know of the plan, what can you do to help?
Here's the problem:
There are already a few people that will suspect you from this point on.
The fact of the matter is that I responded to a PM from JX last night.
It implicated you, as you claimed to have been in contact with me, but hadn't been.

Yes, I know who "Alarra" is.
Yes, I know who "Atreyu" is.
Yes, I know all of the Masons.
Yes, I know the Lovers and the Fueders.

You really should have contacted me earlier for your plan to have worked more smoothly.
You know I would have helped....
Had you contacted me as soon as the recruitment happened, this could have gone off without a hitch.
Now, I basically have to lynch you or get lynched myself....

Ah, see that doesn't help AMEN. It'll get you one pirate, and before I go I'll tell the crowd who the cult leader is + who else is with AMEN. It would equal a very bad day for your planning to throw either yourself or me to the wolves.

I mean, would the crowd lynch the known baner? Maybe, since the baner is part of AMEN. Or would they lynch Kyrian as AMEN's leader. And who would be killed in the night then? AMEN's not larger enough yet to fully be capable of winning.

I knew you work quicker then I do, but damn you're fast.:smallwink:
Damage control is good.

Like I said though, I have evry single Role in the game (with the exception of the Pirates) acconted for.
There are certain people that know this (even if they don't know who those Roles belong to).

Unless I start finding some Pirates VERY SOON, I'm going to be extremely suspicious....

I have to go to work now, but I'll try to find soe time to hop back on here.

My suggestion: talk to the Pirates and see who they're willing to sacrifice to keep the passengers on my side.
Because unless I find some soon.....
And believe me, if they come after me because you failed to keep me in he Loop, I'll burn this whole freaking boat down as I go!
Call it a passenger win, immediately upon the third finger pointed at me!
I'll post my Role Call openly in the thread if I have to.

(*Note that at one point there were two people pointing at me. I was paying VERY close attention for the third. That's how close this got. ONE more finger at me and this whole thing would have been blown WIDE OPEN!)

You see, that doesn't help AMEN in any way. In fact, if you burn down the ship, you're only helping the pirates and not AMEN at all. If I cross my mates, then AMEN gets hurt - directly, by the remaining pirates.

You have one pirate, me. I won't give any other names until I get some names....like who the seers are or something?

Now, I'd like for AMEN to win - that's my goal now after all, but in order to do so it needs to keep going and growing. It can only do that so long as we are in agreement that protecting Kyrian and the other AMENities is our goal. Pirates will help with that goal so long as pirates live. Giving them up turns them against AMEN - which means against me, you, Kyrian....

Can you tell me the masons feel the same way - isn't their goal to get rid of AMEN?

If you want to give someone up, you know a passanger or two who would fit the bill....I'm certain you can make a convincing enough lie to buy some more time with that. Then perhaps we can have Kyrian pull in one of those who would kill you, and the pirates kill off another who would kill you.

Again, I'll reiterate that there are certain people in this game that know that I've got all the Roles fingered.
Unfortunately for your plan, one of the Legoin of Fran is among them. Which means that they all know. When you include JX (who has enough to try to burn you on his own, should he choose) it becomes a bad situation.
I give myself 2 game days before I'm expected to have found a Pirate, given the information that I have, and my reputation. If I haven't found one by then (as I would have today were it not for your PM), their suspicions will arise.

You have 48 hours to give me something, or I'll do it myself.

And you know I can.

From the 39 players, there were 6 Legoinaries.
One must assume that there are 6 Pirates.
There is one Indurain.
There is one Llama.
There is one Alarra,
There are two Lovers.
There were two Fueders (one of which was a Legoinary).
There is one Magtok.
I know of four Passengers.

That leaves 13 players unaccounted for.
19 if you count the unknown Pirates.

With 8 dead, the number becomes 11.
The statistics say that I have better than a 50% chance of guessing correctly, and that doesn't take into account my well known analytical skills.
With only 11 people unaccounted, and my knack for finding the baddies, if I don't give them something soon they're going to come after me.
That's all there is to it.

If you had contacted me and told me your plan when I was recruited, instead of leaving me in the dark, we wouldn't be in the situation that we are in.

I have to give them something.
I have to continue to give them something.
I'm not going to be the one that goes down because you failed to inform me of what was happenning.
That was your mistake.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I'm not going to die because of your mistake.

Tonight we have to recruit Jontom.
He knows too much.
Tonight you guys have to kill Bassetking.
He knows too much.
Tomorrow I have to find a Pirate.

You guys can decide and give me one, or I can do it myself, but it's going to happen.

Now you're thinking like an AMENite.

As for finding a pirate - that should be the role of a seer, not the baner, so the pressure should be on them, not you.

As for mistakes being made, you trusted too many people for being in AMENite. If you get burned because of the bed you made, oh well. :smalltongue:

I'd rather keep the pirates on our side (with the AMENities) then against it, so I think it's in the best interest to get the other seer on our (AMEN) side (recruiting into AMEN or, if nothing else, elimination - we still have smellie hippie after all)

We may not have to recruit Jontom. The crowd may just kill him outright....in which case send another name to Kyrian. I'll help you climb out of your mess, but giving up the pirates is not something I will do. It helps me in no ways.I disagree about needind to recruit "Alarra" as (s)he's all but worthless to us.
As is "smellie_hippie"
You know the Pirates.
I know everyone else.
What do we need scries for?

This game might just be salvagable for you/us if Jontom gets lynched....

If he does indeed get lynched, the plan of attack will be to recruit/kill the Legoinaries as fast as possible.

In the event that Jontom gets lynched, Bassetking should be recruited instead of killed.
Kill Almighty Salmon instead.
That leaves only 3 of the Legion.

One for lynching, one for killing, one for recruitment....
All tomorrow.
That will remove everyone that knows of my suspicious list in a matter of a day nand a half.

Then they're done.

Kill "Alarra" the following night. If this goes off as planned, I'll tell you who it is, if you don't already know.

How's it look?

Looks good to me. I'll spread word to my mates.
I just started the bandwagon against Faerwain. Everyone was joining. Day eight maybe?
There were others in between, but these are the important ones.






Well, all I can say is I'm going to sit on the sidelines and watch how this one fans out.

Faerwain is a pirate - so by going after him, you have the pirates coming after you again...

But you're the baner. So you are safe, however the pirates also know who Kyrian is, and if they kill him off, that may lead AMEN's downfall, which for all I know is you and I.

Since I'm on AMEN, they may hesitate to attack Kyrian, but I don't know.

You may want to talk with the pirates you do know. ((Janus and Faerwain)) You still don't have Smellie or El J in your sights yet, so they might be open to listening, but I don't know.

Like I said, I'm going to sit on the sidelines. Unless you have an idea on how to move off this mess.
My answer to this is something that I've already said to you.

Unless I start finding some Pirates VERY SOON, I'm going to be extremely suspicious....

I have to go to work now, but I'll try to find soe time to hop back on here.

My suggestion: talk to the Pirates and see who they're willing to sacrifice to keep the passengers on my side.
Because unless I find some soon.....
And believe me, if they come after me because you failed to keep me in he Loop, I'll burn this whole freaking boat down as I go!
Call it a passenger win, immediately upon the third finger pointed at me!
I'll post my Role Call openly in the thread if I have to!

I give myself 2 game days before I'm expected to have found a Pirate, given the information that I have, and my reputation. If I haven't found one by then (as I would have today were it not for your PM), their suspicions will arise.

You have 48 hours to give me something, or I'll do it myself.

And you know I can.

Snip**

With only 11 people unaccounted, and my knack for finding the baddies, if I don't give them something soon they're going to come after me.
That's all there is to it.

If you had contacted me and told me your plan when I was recruited, instead of leaving me in the dark, we wouldn't be in the situation that we are in.

I have to give them something.
I have to continue to give them something.
I'm not going to be the one that goes down because you failed to inform me of what was happenning.
That was your mistake.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I'm not going to die because of your mistake.(*Note that THIS is when the two fingers were pointing at me. DAYS later, we're still arguing!)

I already have some people wondering.
I wasn't trying to gain the Pirates' malice, but I told you that unless you all decided to give me one, I'd do it myself.
Because you failed to decide for yourselves, I chose for you.

This is nothing that I didn't already tell you that I was going to do.

My apologies to the rest of you (especially you, Faerwain), but since you all felt the need to keep me in the dark, I chose to turn on the lights.

If you really want your plans to work, you'd better start including me.
I am THE BANER.
I am NOT a PIRATE.
The fact that I am a member of AMEN does not change either one of those facts.

If you expect me to help you, you'd better start letting me know what you're doing, and who's doing it.

You want help? Then send me the seer and names of people you know. The pirates can knock them off at night, rather then selecting of the list of what they know. Then they'll probably give you more info. For your part, it's been take, take, take....so blech. You need to give in order to get. We've given you two names.... and the only one we had in return was BassetKing - which hampered your plans.

Communication is a two way street. And if you don't start sharing with me who's who, we're both going to be the last and maybe only members of amen, which doesn't do either of us any good.

They don't trust you, and for good reason. You haven't proven where your allegiances lie, and right now I'd rather not be in a boat where AMEN is going to sink because your vendetta seems to be hunting down pirates rather then killing off those who'd ruin AMEN. Perhaps you've forgotten who they know of. You as Baner, and Kyrian as Lord Magtok. You can protect only one person each night, so I worry that they'll either figure to kill you or Kyrian - so how does that help us AMENities?

Like I said before, I'm going to sit on the sidelines, because I have nothing to give to them to convince them to not attempt killing you or Kyrian when night falls.

They'll help AMEN if they know AMEN will help them, but like I mentioned before - you aren't making AMEN look like the group that's going to do such.
I'm not the one asking for help. You are.
I'm willing to give you the names of EVERYONE in exchange for the remaining Pirates.

Take, take, take? You've given me nothing.
Janus' was only givem to me because he was recruited into AMEN.
Faerwain was only given to me because I fingered him as one of you.
You're right. Communication is a two way street. But as I have more at stake than the Pirates do, I need you to make the first move. I've been asking for this since day one. Was that 2 weeks ago? I haven't asked for a single thing since then, other than what I've been asking for from the start.

You tell me who the remaining Pirates are. I tell you everyone else. We collaborate on who should be killed and who should be recruited.

This is not a vendetta, as you called it. I'm more than willing to work together on this, as I've already stated, but I'm not going in blindly.
It looks as if I've been unwilling to work with you? They don't trust me?
What reason do I have to believe that they are trustworthy? What have they done to show me that they want to work together?

The fact of the matter is that for your plan to succeed, every member of AMEN is an "honorary Pirate." If you don't begin to treat us as such, we will simply be forced to act in our original gameplan.

You give me 2 or 3 names.
I give you everyone else.
We collaborate after.
This is nothing that I haven't been asking for from the start.

If Kyrain is killed in the night, instead of giving the list to you, I'll post it in the thread.


You're right. I realize you had no idea of Faerwain because you've not been told who to protect. Apologies for my hot-headed-ness.

So here's the remaining...
Lord Magtok
Ink
Akaziel

If you choose to screw them, that's on your shoulders. With me and Janusnori in AMEN - you have some pirates, so we can continue the nightly kills, so we still have that advantage, but know it's only an advantage if we still have Kyrian alive (which should be fairly easy right now since he's asked for no auto-lynch due to vacation and such.)

Who else is in AMEN, is it just Janusnori or do we have another?

And who are the remaining roles? It's time to make AMEN to slick fast killing machine us pirates envisioned from the start.

The reign of the pain train is for you to decide.

Thanks,
Supagoof
Now were're talking!
This is pretty much as I had it, with only a few minor changes from your info.
Anyone not listed with a role in blue can now be considered Passengers/SMBG'ers
I would have CC'd this to the others you just named, but I thought it better nt to, just in case you were lying to me about them, so without further ado....

Role Call!
Cast list:
akaziel - Pirate (pirate???)(I already had my suspicions of him)
almighty salmon - Legion of Fran
Artemis 97 - SMBG'er??? (I believe she just has "first game jitters")
B-man - SMBG'er
bassetking - Legion of Fran
Bookboy - SMBG'er
Calamity - SMBG'er
Captain Van Der Decken - Alarra (we need to kill him tonight!)
Castaras - SMBG'er
DolieMaster - Trog or Thes
Eldritch Knight - Legion of Fran
evnafets - ZombieRockStar (we need to recruit him tonight. He suspects too many of you.)
Faerwain - Pirate
fleeing coward - SMBG'er
funkyodor - Trog or Thes
helgraf - (pirate???)(I was wrong about him, I guess)
Hyramgraff - SMBG'er
Ink (for a prize) - Pirate(Pirate???)
Inky 13112 - SMBG'er
janusnori - Pirate/AMENite
Jontom Xire - SMBG'er
Khaldan -
Kyrian - Lord Magtok
Lord Magtok - Pirate (Pirate???)(yup)
Lord Fullbladder - SMBG'er
Malmagor - Legion of Fran
Pingcode - (pirate???)(Nope)
Shadow - Indurain/AMENite
Selrahc - SMBG'er
smellie_hippie -
Raldor - SMBG'er
Supagoof - Pirate/AMENite
The Almighty One - SMBG'er
Timberwolf - Legion of Fran/AMENite
Vonriel - Korith/Legion of Fran
vicarin - SMBG'er
whitehelm -
Zar Peter - SMBG'er
Zeb the troll - Atreyu the Masked Llama

The Valiant Turtle
2007-08-04, 03:05 PM
I must admit that I too was disappointed with how this game played out (I'm beginning to think the Pirates game is cursed). Unfortunately I have to say that I think it was a poorly chosen ruleset. Any time there are multiple bad guys in a WW variant you have to be sure to make sure they can't co-operate.

Admittedly the outing of Shadow on the first night was the lynchpin for the whole scheme, but it was obvious that he would be recruited by the cult the next night. After a few days I seriously considerd suggesting that we go ahead and lynch him.

Oh well, time to sign up for some other games.

Shadow
2007-08-04, 03:08 PM
That, actually, would have saved the game for the passengers.
It would have been a LANDSLIDE victory because, thinking the Pirates had finally given me over (and considering the 3 point rule I had given myself and them) I would have given you all the names.

Although most (if not all) members of AMEN would have been listed as passengers.
Actually, I think I would have simply put [NAME] - SAFE for everyone, including Roles and AMENites.

The Pirates would have then killed Kyrian.
The passengers would have then found four of the six Pirates in a matter of 5 or 6 days.

Come to think of it, not such a huge landslide if I'd done it that way. The last two (who were AMENites) would have been working together, along with one of the Legion (who would have been a huge help) to save themselves.

The passengers would have won though, in the end.

Yup. Looks like you should have lynched me.... :smallwink:

Ink
2007-08-04, 06:02 PM
A bit long. Spoilered.Ok, this response is a tad late, but.. Ink, therein lies the problem. When people think Shadow is on their side, and are given no evidence to the contrary - he worked very hard from what I can tell to keep himself away from suspicion, and I admit I did some very stupid things before I died - they follow what he says. People gather around certain other prominent people in these games, hoping that they'll help them out, and the passengers probably believed Shadow was going to do what he did in WWVII; a bloody and brutal slaughter of the pirates. However, people didn't take into consideration - either until they were already dead, like me, or until it was way too late to do anything, like Helgraf - that AMEN, and by extent, Shadow, and probably all the other usually prominent people, were working with the pirates for a combined victory (or dead), which basically meant the villagers were screwed. As much as you tried to say this was a three-way game, it wasn't; it was a two-way game, with the pirates basically getting 2 night kills and a free day kill after about day six or so. :smallannoyed: Yes, had night one not gone the way it did, it might not have turned out this way, but I have a feeling Shadow may have tried for a similar victory once recruited. :smalltongue:

Also, in reading some of the post-game responses, people have mentioned not trusting Shadow, but here's the thing: Nobody could've pulled off a successful lynch of Shadow early-game, because everyone suspected he was the baner or a "good guy," and so the person trying for the lynch would've been killed. I think sometime during the mid-game, there may have been a day - a single day - where there was a chance to get him lynched, but by then the plans were in motion, and his lynching couldn't stop them. Basically, there was no chance for us good guys to lynch him, because after that one golden opportunity, the game was solidly in AMENs hands.

:smallsigh: I guess I just can't get over how.. cheated I felt when I realized what was going on. This wasn't a game, the idea that the villagers stood a chance is a fevered dream some mad man may have had while delirious with scurvy in the bowels of the ship. Yes, there was a chance that the villagers could've accidentally killed Magtok, but how often has Kyrian actually been lynched before someone finally realized he was lying low and surviving? Hell, for the time I was actually participating, I can't even recall him being active enough to escape autolynching. So yeah, saying the villagers actually stood a chance is like saying shouting loud enough will stop an avalanche from crushing you. Not to mention that I died early on, again. Will I ever survive past the first few days of a Pirates game? :smallsigh:

Ok, I think I have the bad thoughts of this game out of my head and onto paper. Again, narrators, you ran what should've been a good game, it's just too bad the players took off and mucked things up.


See I get that you're all frustrated and upset at being blindsided and not being able to win the game. And I understand that it was a very tough ask for the passengers. But you are blaming me, blaming Supagoof, maybe also Kyrian and Shadow, for trying "break the game" and "muck things up" when all we were trying to do is secure victory for our side. It's the passengers' responsibility to secure victory for theirs. Ours is to make it hard for them to do so, and vice versa. It would've been silly for us to have the advantage and not take it, that would make us the most half-hearted bad guys ever.

Now if you choose to think of it as throwing away one victory for another then go ahead. Even so it was our victory to throw away. It was our strategy to corner Lord Magtok and get a hold of AMEN, it may not have been yours. Your strategy may have been to kill Lord Magtok and play it like Werewolf Classic, but that was not ours. If you were the Pirates it would be your prerogative to choose your tactics, but in this case we were the Pirates.

We used an alternative method to what you may have but that doesn't make us cheats. No rules were broken, nobody threatened the narrators for preferential treatment, nobody hacked anyone's pc to get their role. How is teaming up with AMEN the same as using cheat codes in a computer game? We weren't given power beyond the normal boundaries of the game. We merely used all the elements in the game to give ourselves the advantage. Feel free to disagree with our strategy if you like, but we were not cheating and we were not trying to break the game.

pingcode20
2007-08-04, 06:15 PM
So... Can it be safely said that no role survives contact with Shadow?

He always seems to be able to take a seemingly innocuous role and powergame the crap out of it until he pulls all the strings.

I suppose it's just a side effect of wishful thinking - we'd all love to think that Shadow is pulling the strings for our benefit.

evnafets
2007-08-04, 06:40 PM
Just to add one small anecdote to this.
I was recruited into AMEN just in time and maybe even a little late.

Way back when, I posted a list of all the people I suspected


I think we did in fact find a pirate with Faerwain. Unfortunately he got saved.
I am working under the assumption that Faerwain is a pirate, and suspecting people who didn't vote for him.

Also under suspicion are those who have been staying under the radar. Skipping voting days. Pointing at someone random to keep off a passenger bandwagon, that kinda thing.

The shortlist:
Akaziel
B-Man
janusnori
Kyrian
SmellieHippie
Timberwolf

Akaziel keeps coming back into my short lists here. I've tried pointing that way before, but something else always seems to come up.

evnafets points at Akaziel

4 out of 6 were 'bad guys' - one of them being Lord Magtok. 5 minutes after I posted that list, I got a PM in my mailbox telling me I had been recruited into AMEN. Actually it had been done the previous night, but nobody had bothered to inform me. The PM then demanded that I go back and edit my post because it was too correct!

We ended up lynching B-Man that day because Shadow picked up on the list, and chose one of the two innocents on it.

Other titbits
- AMEN missed a couple of nights recruiting (Kyrian was AWOL) Otherwise the AMEN win would have been sooner.
- This game was a freak in that the pirates managed to find/uncover both "Indurain" and "Lord Magtok" in the same night.
- If there had been no AMEN, I think the passengers would have almost certainly won. Having the baner revealed on the first night was the clincher - it meant we could trust him implicitly - until he got recruited.
- Recruiting Shadow was the obvious move for AMEN, and I expected it. I didn't think it was worth lynching shadow (as obvious AMEN) without first killing Lord Magtok, and stopping the spread of AMEN.

On recruiting - as has been mentioned a couple of times before, it means you can never trust anyone. Even if you're the seer, and scry someone as clean to use as a proxy for you. The proxy gets recruited (no chance to say no) and the seer is revealed. IMO thats where the recruitment idea breaks down badly.

Cheers,
evnafets

Vonriel
2007-08-04, 09:35 PM
Ink, there's a very different denotation to the way I used the verb "cheat" in that rant. I did not accuse you of cheating in any sense, I accused you of stealing away the fun of the game from the passengers. Look at the way Shadow and 'Goof treated the passengers in their PMs. They were nonentities to them! It was as if, to them, the passengers didn't exist, and the only reason they were around was to meet some narrator-determined amount of people needed to play the game. They knew that the passengers would have no bearing on the outcome of the game as long as they were in control, and they both knew they were in control the entire time.

And yes, you did break the game. The pirates should've wanted to kill all and take the ship over, not hand themselves over to AMEN's rule. I'll repeat what I said earlier: They were bloodthirsty killers who wanted everyone's post counts, and AMEN was a mind-controlling cult that only wanted to grow. The two have no points that should have even suggested cooperation, yet the pirates willingly submitted to the rule of someone else just so that they could win. Yes, I understand that it's a strategy, but it completely breaks the entire stigma of the pirates, and it throws the balance of the game completely off. You exploited a loophole to take the easy route, plain and simple, instead of playing a fun game. In these games, what you did is akin to creating pun-pun in a D&D game because you didn't feel like dealing with the random encounters or story. No, it's technically not cheating, but it might as well have been.

Also, just for kicks, I'll post my strategy. It was to actually survive. Which, as soon as I realized what was going on, I knew to be a completely stupid strategy, because there was no chance of it. :smallannoyed:

Edit: And I really am going to have this as my last post. Please, don't try and goad me further, it's just bad form at this point.

One more Edit: Narrators, didn't evnafets survive to the end of the game? And no special commendation for him winning as a feuding brother? Good. :smallwink:

Helgraf
2007-08-05, 04:26 AM
Part of me wants to continue arguing. Part of me wants to just wash my hands of this. Another part of me just wants to sigh and point at my last post instead of repeating it here.

I'm glad the winners enjoyed the game - and Castaras. Kudos to you.

I will repeat one thing though.

Yes, the letter of the law was upheld. But I'm pretty damn sure the spirit of the law was violated severely. And I have to assume there's agreement there since the cult won't be coming back to pirates.

So enjoy your victory; it's truly going to be one of a kind, since the rules are changing afterward.

Oh, and in case it isn't crystal clear, no I have no grudges with the narrators, since technically everything was done legally and since they've also taken steps to prevent this loophole from being abused again. I fully endorse the work they did and the wonderful witty scenes and vignettes they provided us.

Jontom Xire
2007-08-05, 11:41 AM
Weird being in agreement with you, Helgraf.

But yes, many thanks to the narrators. One bit that we're starting to see more of in this game is much more narrator involvement, but this was a master of its kind. The death scenes, the shopping trips, the vending machine, all wonderful.

A couple more points of clarification. As I said before, it has become clear that SupaGooof did honour the gentleman's agreement. Holding Lord Magtok to ransom to get the list of roles from Shadow was a masterful plan, and it's only due to Shadow and (once he was recruited) SupaGoof's excellent work that it failed. I have no complaint against either two, or any other initial members of AMEN who joined involuntarily.

It's only those who voluntarily jumped ship to join AMEN that I disagree with. That and comments like "the Smart decision". The smart decision may have been to surrender to Hitler. It may have saved many lives. I think everyone would agree it wouldn't have been the Right decision. There is a difference between easy and correct. I'm also a bit upset with Whitehelm's comment;


If you're in the winning group at the end, you win. That's the rule. Feel free to disagree.

Picked any fights with two-year olds recently, Whitehelm? That's an easy way to make sure you win too. I really thought you were better than comments like that.

Zar Peter
2007-08-05, 11:54 AM
About the winning:

I won, I left the ship and survived the trip. I died in a car accident!

I won, I played in a great game and had much fun till the end!

I won, I got two death scenes!

You're playing a game! If you feel that you have won, you won. If you feel that you lost, you lost.

Complaining that the evil folk did evil things is like complaining that the person below me stabbed me in stabbity death.

Shadow
2007-08-05, 11:54 AM
So... Can it be safely said that no role survives contact with Shadow?Not true. I was blackmailed . Of course, it's what I would have done, were I him, so I never complained about it.

I suppose it's just a side effect of wishful thinking - we'd all love to think that Shadow is pulling the strings for our benefit.And I would have been, were it not for the aforementioned blackmailing. Nothing I could do. The rules state that a member of AMEN's FIRST priority is to keep the leader alive. They threatened killing him. I knew that if I just handed the list over that they would kill him anyway. It was all I could do to ensure my leader's life and my team's win. But I knew that I had to hold out on the list until things were back in my favor. The arguing with 'Goof only helped that, I'm happy to say.

A couple more points of clarification. As I said before, it has become clear that SupaGooof did honour the gentleman's agreement. Holding Lord Magtok to ransom to get the list of roles from Shadow was a masterful plan, and it's only due to Shadow and (once he was recruited) SupaGoof's excellent work that it failed.Yes it was.
And thank you.
And yes it was.

Complaining that the evil folk did evil things is like complaining that the person below me stabbed me in stabbity death.Haahaa!
Quoted for truth!

Ink
2007-08-05, 03:52 PM
I agree with you there, Zar.

Well I feel that what happened is just the new dimension AMEN brought to the table. If you put the big gun in the game, players who find the big gun are going to pick it up and use it. AMEN was the big gun. The passengers could have used the gun too if they had found it first. I appreciate that not everyone sees it that way, but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

I'm sorry if you feel you did not have fun. For my part, I thought it was a nice game. Anyhow, thank you for the game, everyone. Good luck in your next game.

whitehelm
2007-08-05, 06:56 PM
Picked any fights with two-year olds recently, Whitehelm? That's an easy way to make sure you win too. I really thought you were better than comments like that.

As I said, feel free to disagree. It is my opinion, that in this game being part of the winning group at the end means you win the game, and that is what's stated by the rules. If you don't want to respect a win in that manner, that's up to you. I apologize if my first post came out otherwise. I just wanted to make it clear that I disagree with you.

To answer your question, no, even though I disagree with you, I don't go around picking fights with two-year olds.

Alarra
2007-08-05, 07:29 PM
Guys....Okay, what's needed said has been said. I'm sorry that some of you didn't agree with how things went, but nothing was inherently broken and no one cheated. I don't think this argument needs to continue any further. And I'm glad you liked the death scenes. Feel free to change the topic of conversation to something else....like....secret taco sidequests of the future.

Supagoof
2007-08-06, 09:06 AM
The smart decision may have been to surrender to Hitler. It may have saved many lives. I think everyone would agree it wouldn't have been the Right decision. There is a difference between easy and correct. I'm also a bit upset with Whitehelm's comment;

Picked any fights with two-year olds recently...
I shall take those as compliments. I mean, being in AMEN and a Pirate and getting compared to Hitler and picking fights with toddlers - a whole level of evil I never thought I'd be able to achieve.

Anyway, I get it now. I'm sorry.

For those of you who were cheated out of a win for having no way to grab a victory because of what we did. I'm sorry.
You were cheated by us using an unfair advantage first. I'm sorry.
You were cheated by chance favoring us on the first night. I'm sorry.
We didn't cheat by breaking the rules no, but as you had been cheated and we we're responsible for that, you have my deepest apologies.

I don't pick fights with people who have no chance to win. I'm not a bully. I consider all of you smarter or as smart as I am to be able to play with-in this system.

I'm sorry.

I'm going to go remove the "Hero in the playground" award from my sig. It doesn't belong there with the round about way I cheated you all.

Sorry. Good luck with future WW's. Like YOW2 - which shall be starting soon.....

Vonriel
2007-08-06, 10:48 AM
I.. but.. damn guilt trip.. :smallfrown:

Kyrian
2007-08-07, 10:57 PM
Well...my team won it seems.

I owe thanks to tons of people, but five of them get the most.

First off, for the narrators. I'd randomly been selected to play the role of Lord Magtok, and thankfully the narrators were understanding in my schedule for this summer. What with almost never being around. So thank you, Alarra, Atreyu, and Indurain.

Hmm...I'm not really good I guess with the whole thanking people in a post.

Well, my other thanks goes out to Shadow and Supagoof. They were the brains...I think, of the whole operation. Goof came to me within the first day and while (if I still remember the PMs correctly) he thought that I'd thought wrong on his role, I'm pretty sure I'd assumed he was a pirate. All in all, between him and Shadow, things worked out well. No way I'd been able to pull this off without them.