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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Martial Archetype: Lord of Cinderfall [PEACH]



DracoKnight
2016-06-01, 04:44 PM
This is a Martial Archetype I'm currently making based on an order of knights in my world.

The Lords of Cinderfall (http://www.naturalcrit.com/homebrew/share/HkxKv5pX) are a group of knights much like the Knights of the Round Table. Their origin is much more tragic, however. They were 12 knights who discovered an abandoned ruin. A sign outside the ruin read "______ Castle __________________ Fall_____________ creek __________________." While the castle itself was abandoned, the land around it was fertile, and ripe for farming. They moved their families to the fortress which they dubbed Castle Fallcreek, pooling their resources together to rebuild the decrepit keep to its former glory. Little did they know that the castle was basically a gigantic Iron Flask (DMG, pg. 178) holding an Archdevil imprisoned within its walls. The Archdevil is accidentally freed upon the keep's completion, and he thanks the 12 lordly knights for freeing him. He places a curse upon them, that they never be free of the deeds wrought at Castle Cinderfall. The knights at once recognize the name Cinderfall, remembering all of the lore behind it, and realize that they just freed Ma'ak Ghur - an Archdevil whose disappearance from hell was nothing but joyous news for adventurers. Ma'ak Ghur recites for them the original wording of the sign:

"Entombed here is Ma'ak Ghur, enter the castle fool - if you dare
Evil whispers, and malicious shadows just around every corner in every hall
The cowards die, the brave and bold grow quiet and scared
When ruins rebuilt stand proud and turrets praise, scorched earth and cinders fall
Beware the glory of resurrection, beware the night, beware the door's creek
For it makes the might meek
And never rebuild Cinderfall Keep"

Ma'ak Ghur's laughs and leaves, free of Cinderfall Keep, and ready to rain terror on the world once more. But first, he sets his sights on the planes of Chaos, wanting to raise an army before he is ready to assault the world. The knights are cursed with immortality - though they can still be slain on the battlefield, and when one of their number dies, they recruit another member in hopes that one day they might be able to imprison Ma'ak Ghur once more.

EDIT: I have now added the PDF version of this Archetype.

RakiReborn
2016-06-01, 05:13 PM
4 quick things as i scanned it:
The lvl3 feature van use 1d6 damage, to make it equal to a cantrip. Even then, it is a bit underwhelming, as the EK can take thunderclap as a cantrip for the same damage, and one more and some neat spells on top of it. Perhaps give something more at 3rd besides upping it to 1d6.
The other is the 1d8 to weapon attacks. Given the increasing extra attacks, this gives insane damage. At 20th, you deal 8d8 extra damage if you hit all. Perhaps make it 1d8 extra on hit once per turn, or make it a x times per short or per Long rest. With the latter, i even think 1d6 if once per SR is enough, or 1d8 if once per LR. It doesnt need an upgrade later on, as you already get it with the extra attacks at 11th and 20th.
Demons bane: immunity? Sorry man, but dont grant immunity. Especially two of the most common types. Just dont. Even for a lvl18th feature. Dont.....
Undying Lords - look at the phb material that grant not dying of age. You could use the same wording if that is what you mean. Currently, i (think i) get what you mean, but the wording is vague.
Hmmmm... post got longer than i thought it would be. Hope it helps :)

DracoKnight
2016-06-01, 05:36 PM
Thanks for the response, Raki!


4 quick things as i scanned it:
The lvl3 feature van use 1d6 damage, to make it equal to a cantrip. Even then, it is a bit underwhelming, as the EK can take thunderclap as a cantrip for the same damage, and one more and some neat spells on top of it. Perhaps give something more at 3rd besides upping it to 1d6.

The reasoning behind making it 1d4 is that it's as a bonus action, and those cantrips are an action. And since the Fighter doesn't get a lot to do that functions off of a BA (other than TWF), I thought slightly less damage would be a decent tradeoff for saving their action to Attack.


The other is the 1d8 to weapon attacks. Given the increasing extra attacks, this gives insane damage. At 20th, you deal 8d8 extra damage if you hit all. Perhaps make it 1d8 extra on hit once per turn, or make it a x times per short or per Long rest. With the latter, i even think 1d6 if once per SR is enough, or 1d8 if once per LR. It doesnt need an upgrade later on, as you already get it with the extra attacks at 11th and 20th.

Oops. Copy-paste kills me again. They're not supposed to get an additional 1d8 at 14th level. They're just supposed to be able to switch damage types. And I thought that 1d8 bonus damage would be fine - since the Paladin gets the same (admittedly not to as many attacks) at 11th level (but then again, the Fighter doesn't get Divine Smite, or any real way to supplement their attacks).


Demons bane: immunity? Sorry man, but dont grant immunity. Especially two of the most common types. Just dont. Even for a lvl18th feature. Dont.....

Hmmmm... I thought that it might be fine, since the SCAG storm sorcerer gets immunity to lightning and thunder damage on top of a shareable, always on fly speed at the same level. If the consensus is that it's way OP, then I'll change it - probably to resistance.


Undying Lords - look at the phb material that grant not dying of age. You could use the same wording if that is what you mean. Currently, i (think i) get what you mean, but wording is vague.

The intention is that the character cannot die. They are basically immortal, unless you kill them. So, short of getting themselves killed, they don't die of like old age, disease, or anything like that. More of a fluff thing than anything else :smalltongue:


Hmmmm... post got longer than i thought it would be. Hope it helps :)

Thanks so much for responding! Now I know what I can fix while I'm waiting for more people to respond :smallbiggrin:

Final Hyena
2016-06-01, 05:39 PM
Ember Shroud
This starts of too weak and scales too strongly I would suggest starting at 1d6 and scale up to 1d10.

Brand of Cinderfall
Way too strong, way way way way way way toooooo strong.
The class has plenty of unlimited damage with ember shroud, I would suggest allowing you to do cold instead of fire damage with your shroud. Or to change all your damage from weapon attacks into fire or cold. Or all of those ideas. Just not an extra 1d8/2d8 damage on a class that gets up to 4 attacks and an action surge. :'(

Edit;

Undying Lords
Additionly at 18th level, unless you are killed, you cannot die. The Lords of Cinderfall were cursed for their transgressions, and now they must spend eternity repenting for their sins.
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/070/976/PEOPLE_DIE_IF_THEY_ARE_KILLED.jpg
I kinda know what you mean, but seriously make it immunity to disease and death from ageing.

GandalfTheWhite
2016-06-01, 05:52 PM
Okay, let me propose a compromise: Draco wants to have Brand of Cinderfall be bonus d8s, and thus far, the forum it seems too strong. So, what if you theme it as blood magic, and you have to spend a hit die to get it for 1 minute. You sacrifice healing on short rest to get it - it works for Matt Mercer's Blood Hunter just fine.

DracoKnight
2016-06-01, 05:53 PM
I kinda know what you mean, but seriously make it immunity to disease and death from ageing.

Yes, this is what I meant. I'll fix the wording :smallsmile:

Final Hyena
2016-06-01, 05:54 PM
Okay, let me propose a compromise: Draco wants to have Brand of Cinderfall be bonus d8s, and thus far, the forum it seems too strong. So, what if you theme it as blood magic, and you have to spend a hit die to get it for 1 minute. You sacrifice healing on short rest to get it - it works for Matt Mercer's Blood Hunter just fine.
If I remember rightly they lose their HP maximum which is a lot worse than a HD, and they don't get 4 attacks and all that action surge.

GandalfTheWhite
2016-06-01, 05:58 PM
If I remember rightly they lose their HP maximum which is a lot worse than a HD, and they don't get 4 attacks and all that action surge.

Okay so have it work this way: you spend a hit die, roll it, subtract the total of the roll + CON mod from your HP Max, and then you don't restore your max until you LR. Maybe make the feature usable CON mod per LR.

DracoKnight
2016-06-01, 06:02 PM
Okay so have it work this way: you spend a hit die, roll it, subtract the total of the roll + CON mod from your HP Max, and then you don't restore your max until you LR. Maybe make the feature usable CON mod per LR.

Hmmmmm...I like this. It could work really well.

GandalfTheWhite
2016-06-01, 07:04 PM
Okay that should be fine then. Now, MAYBE if you're having an HP cost, 1/long rest you could reduce your HPMax by and additional 1d10+CON to add another d8. Since your original draft has 1d8 fire and 1d8 cold. That might be stretching balance, though.

Ziegander
2016-06-01, 07:43 PM
Why not simply make Brand of Cinderfall a sort of fire/cold based "Smite" that costs Hit Dice rather than spell slots?

Spend a Hit Dice to add 2d8 fire or cold damage to your attack. At 14th level it adds 2d8 fire and 2d8 cold. You can "go nova" if you want with your four attacks per round by sacrificing a Hit Die on each attack for a potential 16d8 additional damage, meanwhile a Paladin with his two attacks can sacrifice two 4th level spell slots on Divine Smite and with his Improved Divine Smite feature he's got a potential 12d8 additional damage there. Considering the Fighter can only potentially get 16d8 at 20th level and is capped at 12d8 until then, I'd say this is fair.

GandalfTheWhite
2016-06-01, 08:15 PM
Why not simply make Brand of Cinderfall a sort of fire/cold based "Smite" that costs Hit Dice rather than spell slots?

Spend a Hit Dice to add 2d8 fire or cold damage to your attack. At 14th level it adds 2d8 fire and 2d8 cold. You can "go nova" if you want with your four attacks per round by sacrificing a Hit Die on each attack for a potential 16d8 additional damage, meanwhile a Paladin with his two attacks can sacrifice two 4th level spell slots on Divine Smite and with his Improved Divine Smite feature he's got a potential 12d8 additional damage there. Considering the Fighter can only potentially get 16d8 at 20th level and is capped at 12d8 until then, I'd say this is fair.

IMO (and ultimately it is up to the OP), this is taking it too far in the other direction. I am biased, but I think my solution is the best way to balance it without punishing the player's healing too much on short rest (CON mod times long rest, with 1HD spent to activate it makes you sacrifice a MAXIMUM of 1/4 your HD, so you can still heal.) And keep in mind, it takes TWO long rests to get all of your Hit Dice back, since you can gain back a maximum of 1/2 your total HD on a long rest.

DracoKnight
2016-06-02, 06:19 AM
I've updated the OP, applying Gandalf's suggested changes to the "Brand of Cinderfall" feature, and converting the archetype into a PDF format.

Requiemforlust
2016-06-02, 03:16 PM
In its current iteration (the link in the OP) I would say it's balanced. I wish you would fluff "Brand of Cinderfall" as blood magic, though...the mechanics are there already. Just write the fluff :smallbiggrin:

DracoKnight
2016-06-03, 07:37 AM
Is there anything else that needs tweaking/nerfing to make it acceptable?