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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Two-Weapon Fighting Feat Support [PEACH]



DracoKnight
2016-06-03, 07:33 PM
Trying to put off working on my finals, I started making feats for two-weapon fighting (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/rktkGgKN). If you have any feat suggestions to support two-weapon fighting, please feel free to share them, and I'll add them to the PDF! :smallbiggrin:

Mith
2016-06-03, 08:30 PM
Looks OK to me, although my (inexperienced) eye isn't 100% sold on doubly the damage die of LWM due to things like Sneak Attack.

Formatting error: You have an empty bullet point in LWM.

DracoKnight
2016-06-03, 08:48 PM
Looks OK to me, although my (inexperienced) eye isn't 100% sold on doubly the damage die of LWM due to things like Sneak Attack.

I'm cautious about it too...but I was interested to hear other people's thoughts on it.


Formatting error: You have an empty bullet point in LWM.

Fixed it :smallbiggrin:

GandalfTheWhite
2016-06-03, 08:54 PM
...did you just fix Two-Weapon Fighting? Don't you know that's one of the most cardinal of (5e) sins (only after fixing the ranger)?!??!?!

EDIT: In all seriousness, though. They're all decently balanced. I would be cautious about allowing Light Weapon Master - especially if you have any homebrew Light weapons that have above a d6 die, but if not, you should be fine :smallsmile:

Requiemforlust
2016-06-03, 09:15 PM
Now this is a TWF fix I can get behind! :smallbiggrin: I have no problems with the actual style, but it is a character concept that is severely lacking in feat support. The style doesn't need fixing, it just needed feats. I'm off to go build a TWF Champion :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

SterlingWren
2016-06-03, 09:17 PM
I'm going to echo the previous comments - thank you for making TWF viable, but be careful with LWM.

Final Hyena
2016-06-04, 07:22 AM
Some people seem concerned with LWM which I don't fully understand, you're going from d8 (4.5) (because you need DW) to 2d6 (7).
The damage die as written should only affect the weapon not sneak attack or superiority die for example.
It is however a good damage increase and likely good enough on it's own without the extra +1.

My concern is with Rend, as a rogue you only need a single dip in fighter to qualify and suddenly you can get sneak attack twice a round with relative ease.
I think Rend could survive with that section cut.

DracoKnight
2016-06-04, 02:11 PM
My concern is with Rend, as a rogue you only need a single dip in fighter to qualify and suddenly you can get sneak attack twice a round with relative ease.

Rogues can already do that though, any time that they make an opportunity attack, right? :smalltongue:

Final Hyena
2016-06-04, 02:50 PM
Rogues can already do that though, any time that they make an opportunity attack, right? :smalltongue:
Being able to make an aoo
Being attacked

One happens a lot more than the other. I have countless memories of being attacked in game, but not of making an aoo.

my point was that you change what used to be a rare second sneak attack to a very frequent second sneak attack.

Amnoriath
2016-06-04, 05:16 PM
1. Ultimately what stands out the most here is that this feat support makes it deal out the most of any style and it even outright has a better GWM. While it is through a couple of feats ultimately you only lose out on +2 ability score in return for a lot more damage in comparison to polearms. Rend arguably offers a stronger version of Retaliation as one of its three abilities.
2. The other thing that is a little worrisome is that LWM undermines the use of DW.

Steampunkette
2016-06-04, 05:24 PM
Yeah... I'm not so sure about it.

LWM means I'm swinging around two greatswords while wielding scimitars. I mean, functionally, it's an extra attack per round at full damage with a single greatsword, not unlike GWM's bonus attack when you kill an enemy or a Frenzy Zerk.

But both of those are situational benefits, one of which has a ridiculously broken drawback that is absolutely terrible.

And this is at the cost of 2 feats?

So at level 4, with a Vhuman, I could be throwing 2d6 twice per round (4 times as a fighter with an action surge). And by 5th level add on a third attack, at all times, with no situational requirements.

I recognize that there's a feat cost, but I still feel like it's a bit on the high side.

Amnoriath
2016-06-04, 05:25 PM
Some people seem concerned with LWM which I don't fully understand, you're going from d8 (4.5) (because you need DW) to 2d6 (7).
The damage die as written should only affect the weapon not sneak attack or superiority die for example.
It is however a good damage increase and likely good enough on it's own without the extra +1.

My concern is with Rend, as a rogue you only need a single dip in fighter to qualify and suddenly you can get sneak attack twice a round with relative ease.
I think Rend could survive with that section cut.

1. I am concerned because it undermines its prerequisite feat by putting you back in light weapons. Alone it isn't that unbalanced because Sharpshooter and GWM could overcome the consistent extra attack by accepting the price but his other feats trounces these styles with utter impunity.
2. Eh, I am not sure where you are getting that. Yes, Rend is imbalanced because of giving 2 opportunity attacks on a very easy to meet condition as well as 2 others, but by RAW sneak attack can only initiated once on your turn. While in low-levels the extra 1d10 can be pretty potent but Sneak Attack still requires advantage or a friend which likely means using your bonus action.

Final Hyena
2016-06-04, 05:43 PM
1. I am concerned because it undermines its prerequisite feat by putting you back in light weapons. Alone it isn't that unbalanced because Sharpshooter and GWM could overcome the consistent extra attack by accepting the price but his other feats trounces these styles with utter impunity.
2. Eh, I am not sure where you are getting that. Yes, Rend is imbalanced because of giving 2 opportunity attacks on a very easy to meet condition as well as 2 others, but by RAW sneak attack can only initiated once on your turn. While in low-levels the extra 1d10 can be pretty potent but Sneak Attack still requires advantage or a friend which likely means using your bonus action.
1. Hmmm, would it also double magical affects, for example when a magical sword deals an extra 1d4 weapon damage? If so you could avoid that issue and the undermine DW's theme by changing the double weapon die to an extra d4 damage on finesse weapons.
2. It's fairly easy to have an adjacent friend or go swashbuckler.

Steampunkette
2016-06-04, 05:53 PM
For the LWM undermining DW by going back to light weapons:

I kind of agree. I kind of don't... The point of Dual Wielder's weapon size limit increase is to increase the damage that you deal. This does the same thing a second time, it just does so in a different way.

I'd suggest, to maintain the Longsword Fighting Style, that it get renamed to Dual Weapon Mastery and be a flat damage increase to the weapons themselves.

Light weapons increase to 2d6 while Non-Light weapons either gain +1d4 or increase by 2 die sizes (1d8 becomes 2d6).

That doesn't solve the whole issue of situational use or cost, but it fixes the perceived damage scaling issue.

Amnoriath
2016-06-04, 09:56 PM
1. Hmmm, would it also double magical affects, for example when a magical sword deals an extra 1d4 weapon damage? If so you could avoid that issue and the undermine DW's theme by changing the double weapon die to an extra d4 damage on finesse weapons.
2. It's fairly easy to have an adjacent friend or go swashbuckler.

1. To be honest I couldn't say for sure, damage die I usually find is a term used for weapons and not additional die but I can't say it is official. Well the solution doesn't solve Strength based fighting though. The feat in general is also quite boring and doesn't evoke a feat's change in expertise.
2. Well it may be easy to get one the question is does it require your bonus action? Arguably many a times it would. As for the Swashbuckler argument not only is it just one of the sub-classes this means they are a level 3 Rogue using a level 1 dip in Fighter which means they don't have an ASI. A variant human feat can't be selected after they have gained a level in a class so the build needs to be level 5 to work at which a single class Fighter would have had their Extra Attack.

Final Hyena
2016-06-05, 10:00 AM
2. Well it may be easy to get one the question is does it require your bonus action? Arguably many a times it would. As for the Swashbuckler argument not only is it just one of the sub-classes this means they are a level 3 Rogue using a level 1 dip in Fighter which means they don't have an ASI. A variant human feat can't be selected after they have gained a level in a class so the build needs to be level 5 to work at which a single class Fighter would have had their Extra Attack.
2. A bonus action for what? The swashbuckler often gets sneak attack on his own no bonus action needed from him or others, or from an adjacent ally.
I doubt the aspect is overly broken at low levels, the issue is higher levels when sneak attack gets large.

Amnoriath
2016-06-05, 10:50 AM
2. A bonus action for what? The swashbuckler often gets sneak attack on his own no bonus action needed from him or others, or from an adjacent ally.
I doubt the aspect is overly broken at low levels, the issue is higher levels when sneak attack gets large.
1. A bonus action to possibly get closer to enemy with an ally, move safely, or hide to get advantage. For every instance you claim it is easy there are more possibilities where it isn't. Yes advantage on attacks is fairly common but it isn't consistent like how you are portraying it.
2. And how does this relate to Rend? It says nothing of sneak attack and it doesn't scale. As I said by RAW sneak attack can only occur during a turn and the only way to get it twice is from the Thief's capstone once per combat as long as they aren't surprised.
"Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
You donít need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isnít incapacitated, and you donít have disadvantage on the attack roll."(PHB, 96)

Final Hyena
2016-06-05, 11:59 AM
Sneak attack is that hard to pull off? I've only ever seen it not trigger once.

You get sneak once a turn, you get it on your turn, with rend you get it on your enemies turn as well.

Amnoriath
2016-06-05, 01:39 PM
Sneak attack is that hard to pull off? I've only ever seen it not trigger once.

You get sneak once a turn, you get it on your turn, with rend you get it on your enemies turn as well.

1. Than you must be in battles in which are always close-quarters and disadvantage on attack rolls almost never come up. As such it must be pointless to be a Swashbuckler there. Rogues in places I have played or headed only come up about half or a third of the time.
2. No, it doesn't. When an enemy would attack you as a reaction you can make two attacks. That is the only out of your turn option you get. Yes it is imbalanced because it is better than Retaliation in every way, but it doesn't give another sneak attack. If it doesn't specifically mention it then it doesn't change it, period.

Final Hyena
2016-06-05, 01:50 PM
Sneak attack isn't limited to your turn, just a turn.

If you attack out of your turn and meet the requisite of an adjacent ally or swashbucklers feature you apply for sneak attack.

Edit;
REND
When you are attacked by a hostile creature within 5 feet of you, you may use your reaction to make two weapon attacks against your attacker.

SNEAK
Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll.
You donít need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isnít incapacitated, and you donít have disadvantage on the attack roll.

Amnoriath
2016-06-05, 02:05 PM
Sneak attack isn't limited to your turn, just a turn.

If you attack out of your turn and meet the requisite of an adjacent ally or swashbucklers feature you apply for sneak attack.

Edit;
REND
When you are attacked by a hostile creature within 5 feet of you, you may use your reaction to make two weapon attacks against your attacker.

SNEAK
Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll.
You donít need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isnít incapacitated, and you donít have disadvantage on the attack roll.

You fail to specify where sneak attack says it can occur outside your turn. A turn is your set of actions you take for the round except for a reaction. As such by RAW sneak attack can only occur during your turn. Now one could say by RAI that it was supposed to be one attack a round which I can completely understand, but the "once per turn" clause is clear as well as 5e's rule of specificity. Sneak Attack's rules or conditions were never changed and Sneak Attack never mentions using reactions much less when you have already used it as such 5e's rule of specificity states that it must not exist.

Final Hyena
2016-06-05, 02:18 PM
You fail to specify where sneak attack says it can occur outside your turn.

As such by RAW sneak attack can only occur during your turn.
"Once per turn"
It doesn't say once on your turn, nor once per round, it says once per turn.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/18/sneak-once-per-turn/

barbecube
2016-06-05, 02:36 PM
As further support for Final Hyena's argument, consider the contrast between SA's wording and the more restrictive wording of the Cleric feature Divine Strike, "Once on each of your turns..."

I don't think we'd have two different wordings for these core features if they didn't mean different things.

JNAProductions
2016-06-05, 03:10 PM
Light Weapon Master is +3.5 to your DPR per attack that lands. While it doesn't give any attack bonus (unless you had an odd score...) it's more than three times the damage boost an equal ASI would give you. It is FAR too powerful to be a half-feat. Add some minor fluffy things to it, but do not give +1 Strength/Dexterity.

Rend is fine, except for the reaction attack. That basically doubles a Rogue's DPR (or makes them immune to attacks, since an enemy isn't willing to strike them). Replace that with something minor.

For Two-Weapon Master, I'd make it -5/+8. It's a little worse, but you have one-two extra attacks to do it with. If you get advantage from somewhere, that'd skyrocket your DPR far higher than GWM.

Amnoriath
2016-06-05, 03:59 PM
"Once per turn"
It doesn't say once on your turn, nor once per round, it says once per turn.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/18/sneak-once-per-turn/

Honestly, that is the stupidest ruling I have ever seen. It completely undermines the meaning as well as intention of once and your. Especially considering the whole notion of 10d6 damage added as a consistent feature is only balanced against an Extra Attack and heavy weapons is that it is added once with conditions.

Amnoriath
2016-06-05, 04:01 PM
As further support for Final Hyena's argument, consider the contrast between SA's wording and the more restrictive wording of the Cleric feature Divine Strike, "Once on each of your turns..."

I don't think we'd have two different wordings for these core features if they didn't mean different things.

That clause has a distinction without a different as each can refer to any turn you take.

Final Hyena
2016-06-05, 04:15 PM
I never made a comment on balance only that it is the way it is, or we have to accept the alternative, that every source of damage that isn't specifically stated as applicable when out of your turn doesn't apply.

Or; attack of opportunities don't get stat mods, smite and barbarian rage to damage.

Amnoriath
2016-06-05, 05:31 PM
I never made a comment on balance only that it is the way it is, or we have to accept the alternative, that every source of damage that isn't specifically stated as applicable when out of your turn doesn't apply.

Or; attack of opportunities don't get stat mods, smite and barbarian rage to damage.

1. I am not saying it is a bad judgment because it is imbalanced. It is bad because they completely ignored key phrases in the text which makes it a completely arbitrary and maybe biased judgment.
2. Okay, that can't be correct because not only is it stated clearly in the PHB under Damage Rolls for any weapon attack roll(unless stated otherwise) but if Sage Advice really did than it just proves they are being completely arbitrary and entirely inconsistent. As such it begs the question why are taking this with any credence when we both agree the ruling is bad and the feature is imbalanced.

Final Hyena
2016-06-05, 06:23 PM
1. I am not saying it is a bad judgment because it is imbalanced. It is bad because they completely ignored key phrases in the text which makes it a completely arbitrary and maybe biased judgment.
2. Okay, that can't be correct because not only is it stated clearly in the PHB under Damage Rolls for any weapon attack roll(unless stated otherwise) but if Sage Advice really did than it just proves they are being completely arbitrary and entirely inconsistent. As such it begs the question why are taking this with any credence when we both agree the ruling is bad and the feature is imbalanced.

I'm really confused by your second point, you seem to refer to this;

Each weapon, spell, and harmful monster ability specifies the damage it deals. You roll the damage die or dice, add any modifiers, and apply the damage to your target. Magic weapons, special abilities, and other factors can grant a bonus to damage.
When attacking with a weapon, you add your ability modifieróthe same modifier used for the attack rolló to the damage. A spell tells you which dice to roll for damage and whether to add any modifiers.
If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them. For example, when a wizard casts fireball or a cleric casts flame strike, the spellís damage is rolled once for all creatures caught in the blast.
But what about it?

I'm only going on what you've said here.

You fail to specify where sneak attack says it can occur outside your turn. A turn is your set of actions you take for the round except for a reaction.
If we hold this standard for sneak attack we have to hold it to everything. Show me where it says you can add your ability modifiers to damage on reactions.

I never said it was balanced or imbalanced.


Sneak attack is triggered on the first melee attack of a turn.

Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
You donít need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn't incapacitated, and you donít have disadvantage on the attack roll.

Another creatures turn is a different turn.

A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world. During a round, each participant in a battle takes a turn.

An attack of opportunity results in an attack.

You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach.

To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack

It's a new turn and a melee attack thus if you have the other requirements of advantage/ally/swash you can sneak attack.


You are free to disagree with it and house rule it to something you prefer, never the less that is what the RAW is.

DracoKnight
2016-06-06, 04:17 PM
Thanks everyone for your comments, you've given me a lot to think about. :smallsmile:

DracoKnight
2016-06-08, 07:29 PM
So after the release of the UA: Feats - what does the forum think of these?

Final Hyena
2016-06-09, 07:57 AM
Rend
When you are attacked by a hostile creature within 5 feet of you, you may use your reaction to make two weapon attacks against your attacker.
That second thing needs to be modified or removed, honestly the feat is still reasonable without it.
Given 2 attacks the chance of hitting with your attack action is about 75~84%
The two weapon fighting attack has a 50~60%
Lets take the less generous numbers.
0.5 * 0.75 = 0.375
d10 (5.5) * 0.375 = 2.0625
That is a reasonable replacement for +1 stat.

What you really want to "fix" TWF is something that scales better with extra attacks, one idea is to give a number of rend damage die based on how many times your attack action hits which apply if your TWF attack hits.

Amnoriath
2016-06-10, 05:05 PM
I'm really confused by your second point, you seem to refer to this;

But what about it?

I'm only going on what you've said here.

If we hold this standard for sneak attack we have to hold it to everything. Show me where it says you can add your ability modifiers to damage on reactions.

I never said it was balanced or imbalanced.


Sneak attack is triggered on the first melee attack of a turn.


Another creatures turn is a different turn.


An attack of opportunity results in an attack.


It's a new turn and a melee attack thus if you have the other requirements of advantage/ally/swash you can sneak attack.


You are free to disagree with it and house rule it to something you prefer, never the less that is what the RAW is.
1. It is always annoying when people as a secondary point try to make a straw man out of what was said and then don't remember it. " that every source of damage that isn't specifically stated as applicable when out of your turn doesn't apply.

Or; attack of opportunities don't get stat mods, smite and barbarian rage to damage." Because an opportunity attack is likely a weapon attack and the damage rolls section clearly states it here "When attacking with a weapon, you add your ability modifieróthe same modifier used for the attack roll" As does Rage damage with Strength based rolls.
2. Once per turn describes a resource not a requirement. The turn is the point in which it refreshes. The only thing you can do on somebody else's turn is use a reaction, even a free action is described as a part of an action. So much so Dual-Wielder made it a point to allow 2 weapons drawn. All resources are refreshed on your time, not any one else's if it doesn't say otherwise. As such it must be your turn if it isn't explicitly any.
3. No, it is an abuse of the statement and not taking in 5e as a whole. Why he didn't oust it for what it is I have no clue. Though I can't be too trustworthy of Sageadvice as he ruled against a moving Whirlwind Attack which not only would have been the only way it could be remotely competitive with Volley but it literally has no qualifying statement when they just used one with Volley. Neither of which he gave reasons to.

Amnoriath
2016-06-10, 05:07 PM
So after the release of the UA: Feats - what does the forum think of these?

Alone the Weapon Mastery feats are quite nice and interesting. Personally I would adjust them differently but you can't argue against the reasoning as well as new ideas with using advantage and disadvantage. Against yours though they pale in comparison because of major increases in damage.

Final Hyena
2016-06-10, 05:44 PM
attack of opportunities don't get stat mods, smite and barbarian rage to damage." Because an opportunity attack is likely a weapon attack and the damage rolls section clearly states it here "When attacking with a weapon, you add your ability modifieróthe same modifier used for the attack rolló to the damage. A spell tells you which dice to roll for damage and whether to add any modifiers." As does Rage damage.
Those rules point out that you can use ability mods on damage with an attack, but so does sneak attack.


2. Once per turn describes a resource not a requirement. The turn is the point in which it refreshes. The only thing you can do on somebody else's turn is use a reaction, even a free action is described as a part of an action. So much so Dual-Wielder made it a point to allow 2 weapons drawn. All resources are refreshed on your time, not any one else's. As such it must be your turn if it isn't explicitly any.
Sneak attack is every turn. This "Refreshes" every turn.
Combat is based up of a round in which every participant gets a turn.
Yes all you can do on other peoples turn is a reaction.
with a reaction you can make an attack of opportunity.
An attack of opportunity is an attack.
On an attack you can apply a sneak attack.

Now maybe I'm missing something major, maybe it's just me andSage (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/18/sneak-once-per-turn/).

Which is of course why every single other forum is of course supporting your point of view.
1 (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/47692/do-rogues-get-sneak-attack-damage-added-to-attacks-made-outside-their-turn)
2 (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/2syro4/5e_rogue_sneak_attack_clarification/)
3 (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/3b43tg/5e_question_sneak_attacks_per_turn_vs_per_round/)
4 (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/4jwp8v/5e_mark_sneak_attack_multiple_sneak_attacks_per/)
5 (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?746824-5e-Easy-Sneak-Attack-Question)
6 (https://iourn.wordpress.com/2015/03/18/5th-edition-dd-rules-clarifications/#sneakattack)
7 (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?406898-5e-Easy-Sneak-Attack-Question)

DracoKnight
2016-06-10, 09:06 PM
I've updated the link in the OP :smallsmile:

GandalfTheWhite
2016-06-11, 03:43 AM
I think that they should be fine now. The only thing to look at carefully is a Champion with Rend - they're far more likely to crit on their AoO.

Bharaeth
2016-06-11, 04:51 AM
Just for my bit of input; it seems that the Light Weapon Master feat giving you +1 Str or Dex but only when you're wielding two light finesse weapons is a bit bizarre, and a ball ache for record keeping. When you have two daggers, suddenly you're a bit better at carrying loot, leaping, and picking locks, but when you put one down to pick up that lock pick, your stats shrink?

I think maybe the +1 Str or Dex should be permanent, and the damage dice growth should be the situational thing. Also, I'm personally a fan of a feat having three or so traits. Maybe it needs a third, which isn't about a static increase, but maybe some sort of action option? Like a reaction to make all incoming melee attacks have disadvantage or something, to reflect your quick deflecting and parrying? Or better yet, some sort of exploration or otherwise noncombat type thing? Maybe, advantage on Sleight of Hand checks for hiding light finesse weapons?

DracoKnight
2016-06-11, 05:17 AM
Just for my bit of input; it seems that the Light Weapon Master feat giving you +1 Str or Dex but only when you're wielding two light finesse weapons is a bit bizarre, and a ball ache for record keeping. When you have two daggers, suddenly you're a bit better at carrying loot, leaping, and picking locks, but when you put one down to pick up that lock pick, your stats shrink?

I think maybe the +1 Str or Dex should be permanent, and the damage dice growth should be the situational thing. Also, I'm personally a fan of a feat having three or so traits. Maybe it needs a third, which isn't about a static increase, but maybe some sort of action option? Like a reaction to make all incoming melee attacks have disadvantage or something, to reflect your quick deflecting and parrying? Or better yet, some sort of exploration or otherwise noncombat type thing? Maybe, advantage on Sleight of Hand checks for hiding light finesse weapons?

The STR/DEX growth is permanent, while the die increase is situational - the die is only increase while YOU (or someone else with the feat) wield that weapon.

EDIT: although, I can see where the wording would be REALLY confusing, so thank you. I've fixed the wording and edited the link in the OP.