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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next 5e Class Concept: Reliquist/Sympathist Open Discussion



Ezekiel Moon
2016-06-11, 03:26 AM
It was suggested by zeek0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20867646&postcount=30) that I should create this thread. Unfortunately, I don't have anything to really show yet, but I'll give you the rundown on the concept.

The basic idea for the Reliquist is a class based around a small extradimensional chest called a reliquary, who draws his power from special icons and relics stored inside. Here's the small amount of text I have on the subject; this is all conceptual with few hard mechanics.

Reliquist

Core feature: Reliquary
A reliquist carries a reliquary, a box meant for storing relics. The box contains an extradimensional space, which can accommodate a number of relics based on the reliquist's level. Only relics (as defined by the reliquist's subclass, called Drive) can be stored within this space, and retrieving an item from it is a full-round action. These items do not count when determining the reliquist's load.

Core feature: Likeness
A reliquist can carve a figure in the likeness of a creature. In order to do so, she must have intensely researched the creature, or encountered it personally. By performing a one-hour ritual, she can place a number of likenesses determined by level into her reliquary. Each likeness thus stored grants the reliquist supernatural abilities, which depend on the reliquist's level and what creature the likeness is of. Some benefits may have prerequisites. At the DM's option, it may be possible to carve likenesses of specific individuals.

Drive: Crusader
A crusader bears holy relics into battle. The relics she seeks are items of great religious importance, such as a weapon wielded by a deity, a cup that was used by a great saint, a journal describing religious persecution, or material from a destroyed temple.

Drive: Archaeologist
An archaeologist discovers links to the past. The relics she seeks are items with historical significance, such as the helmet of a commander who fought in an ancient battle, a letter written by a long-dead noble, or an ancestral orb used in royal succession ceremonies.

Drive: Memorialist
Rather than preserving relics of the past, a memorialist is focused on codifying the relics of the future. Many of the things a crusader or archaeologist seeks may be sought by a memorialist as well, but where the crusader's relics are often ancient, and the archaeologist's always are, the memorialist may look for the cup of a still-living saint or a helmet from a recent battle, the first draft of a recently-passed law, or an early example of a new invention.

For right now, I've got other things to focus on, but I'm basically open to seeing what anyone else would want to do with this idea.

khadgar567
2016-06-11, 03:50 AM
It was suggested by zeek0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20867646&postcount=30) that I should create this thread. Unfortunately, I don't have anything to really show yet, but I'll give you the rundown on the concept.

The basic idea for the Reliquist is a class based around a small extradimensional chest called a reliquary, who draws his power from special icons and relics stored inside. Here's the small amount of text I have on the subject; this is all conceptual with few hard mechanics.

Reliquist

Core feature: Reliquary
A reliquist carries a reliquary, a box meant for storing relics. The box contains an extradimensional space, which can accommodate a number of relics based on the reliquist's level. Only relics (as defined by the reliquist's subclass, called Drive) can be stored within this space, and retrieving an item from it is a full-round action. These items do not count when determining the reliquist's load.

Core feature: Likeness
A reliquist can carve a figure in the likeness of a creature. In order to do so, she must have intensely researched the creature, or encountered it personally. By performing a one-hour ritual, she can place a number of likenesses determined by level into her reliquary. Each likeness thus stored grants the reliquist supernatural abilities, which depend on the reliquist's level and what creature the likeness is of. Some benefits may have prerequisites. At the DM's option, it may be possible to carve likenesses of specific individuals.

Drive: Crusader
A crusader bears holy relics into battle. The relics she seeks are items of great religious importance, such as a weapon wielded by a deity, a cup that was used by a great saint, a journal describing religious persecution, or material from a destroyed temple.

Drive: Archaeologist
An archaeologist discovers links to the past. The relics she seeks are items with historical significance, such as the helmet of a commander who fought in an ancient battle, a letter written by a long-dead noble, or an ancestral orb used in royal succession ceremonies.

Drive: Memorialist
Rather than preserving relics of the past, a memorialist is focused on codifying the relics of the future. Many of the things a crusader or archaeologist seeks may be sought by a memorialist as well, but where the crusader's relics are often ancient, and the archaeologist's always are, the memorialist may look for the cup of a still-living saint or a helmet from a recent battle, the first draft of a recently-passed law, or an early example of a new invention.

For right now, I've got other things to focus on, but I'm basically open to seeing what anyone else would want to do with this idea.

Okay so you want them to use their relics like occultist implaments each relic/ implament giving diffrent set of powers like diary of tactician giving more control to pc

zeek0
2016-06-11, 08:08 AM
Hm. Alright. First, I'll say that I like the concept. It is an alternative method to power, and I think that it can be represented in interesting ways.

Well, lets start with the basics.

I think that this is a d8 class, like the cleric or monk. You gain enough utility/defense from your relics that d10 isn't warranted.

A Reliquist is an artisan and researcher and knowledgeable. I think that because of this they should only gain proficiency with simple weapons and shields.

I think that the extradimensional space is uneccessary and distracts from the class concept of an owner of objects that provide power.

Now, I am considering the subclasses. They are divided based on what they consider to be relics. But this is rather muddled - what about ancient holy sword that have been rediscovered and used in the recent Orc wars? The subclass division as it stands represents how they conceptualize their power - I'd like to divide it based on how they use it.

I have a radical idea about what can happen with this class. Relics and likenesses are similar in function - an object that provides power. They are more like expressions of what are object of power than anything else.

So, we rename the class "Sympathist" (see Sympathist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic_magic) on Wikipedia. The two subclasses are the Reliquist and the Thaumaturgist (this name is terrible and based on a fictional work, so we'll change it later).

First, the Reliquist finds objects of symbolic importance and channels their power. This can be ancient items or modern creations, but they are all unique. The creation of this class will include the creation of a list of items that the reliquist can invoke.

Second, we have the Thaumaturgist. The thaumaturgist channels dread energy through likenesses of others. If they own a likeness of an enemy, they can use it like a poppet to increase their powers against them. If they own a poppet of an ally, they can aid their ally. A capstone feature could be the creation of a poppet that resembles yourself.


A lot of my writing has a lot to do with concept, and little to do with mechanics. But does this make sense?

I'd like to change this thread into a discussion of the idea, a free-flow of ideas about what this class could be. I think that humans problem solve / create best in tandem.

Ezekiel Moon
2016-06-11, 05:59 PM
A lot of my writing has a lot to do with concept, and little to do with mechanics. But does this make sense?

I'd like to change this thread into a discussion of the idea, a free-flow of ideas about what this class could be. I think that humans problem solve / create best in tandem.

I'm liking it so far, except for one thing; your concept of likenesses diverges quite a bit from my original concept, which was about drawing on the power of the creature represented to give yourself relevant powers, and ends up being... a magical ranger? My idea was that, for instance, if you have a likeness of a displacer beast (and meet certain prerequisites), you can use it to give yourself displacement. I'd like it to retain some semblance of that.

zeek0
2016-06-13, 09:49 AM
Alright, I've integrated the boons from likenesses back in.

As I worked more, I found that making a base class from scratch would be difficult. There just wasn't enough qualities or themes to build into 20 different themes.

Instead, I've made the Relics and Likeness users subclasses of existing base classes.

So, here's the first:
Hag Coven Patron

Your patron is a hag coven, a group of three powerful hags. Hags are creatures that are selfish, cruel, and deceptive Ė and rarely work together. They only form a coven as a way to channel powerful magics and accomplish some shared goal. Perhaps the hags are ancient enough that your power comes directly from the hags themselves, or perhaps the hags are a merely a conduit for greater powers. Examples of hag covens include Macbethís witches, the Lilim, the Furies, and the daughters of Sora Kell.

Hag Coven Expanded Spells
Spell Level /// Spells
1st bane, command
2nd alter self, blindness/deafness
3rd bestow curse, clairvoyance
4th greater invisibility, locate creature
5th contagion, dominate person

Create Likeness
You may create a likeness of a creature, granting you a portion of its power and control over it.
To create a likeness, you must have seen the creature alive within 30 feet, and have a fragment from them that allows you to channel their power. This object may be a claw, dried organ, hair, drop of blood, or object treasured by the creature. This object is then incorporated into a work which visually or symbolically resembles the creature, such as a carving, painting, or puppet. The creation of the likeness takes 1 hour.
In addition, while you are attuned to its power, the subject of your likeness has disadvantage on saving throws against your spells.
You may only attune yourself to one likeness at a time. After you finish a short or long rest you may choose to attune yourself to one different likeness in your possession. You may not possess a number of likenesses greater than half your warlock level rounded up.
Examples of likenesses are listed below. The power granted by other created likenesses is determined by yourself and the DM.

Distant Affectation
At 6th level, your power over the subject of your likeness increases. You may choose to expend a warlock spell slot and cast a spell of 1st level or higher you know as a ritual which targets the likeness you are attuned to. If you cast a spell in this way, spells which have a target or have a range of touch can target the likeness, and the subject is affected by the spell instead if they are within 240 feet. If the spell had a range of touch, the subject can resist the spell by succeeding on a Wisdom save against your spell save DC. The spell doesnít affect the creature if running water at least 10 feet wide blocks a direct path between you and the creature.
This distance increases to 1000 feet at 10th level, and 1 mile at 14th level.
Impersonate
At 10th level, when you use the alter self spell, you may transform into a perfect physical copy of your attuned subject, including mannerisms and automatic reactions. You gain no other qualities aside from the physical appearance of your transformation. Creatures that know the subject well have disadvantage on checks made to recognize the disguise.

Multiple Attunements
At 14th level, you may attune yourself to two likenesses, gaining benefits from each.

Example Likenesses
The power you gain from the likeness is often a special ability, attack, or quality exemplified by the subject.

Grizzly Bear
This claw has been carved into a piece of wood, which now resembles the beast to which the claw once belonged.
Power: You may gain proficiency in Strength checks and saving throws, and have advantage on Wisdom ability checks.

Horb, Village Blacksmith
A coarse hair is twined about the hammer that a cloth puppet is striking downward.
Power: You gain proficiency with blacksmithís tools.

Displacer Beast
The hide of a displacer beast has been grafted onto a metal wire frame. Shimmering black stones are used as claws on the six-legged likeness.
Power: An illusion is created of you, which makes it appear that you are standing near your actual location. Attack rolls against you to have disadvantage. If you are hit by an attack, this power is disrupted until the end of your next turn. This power is also disrupted while you are incapacitated or your speed is 0.

King Lionel IV
A small portrait is expertly painted of a chiseled and glorious figure, which is gilded with the melted-down gold of the ancestral royal signet. The brave smile is disrupted only a fraction by the empty darkness in the subjectís eyes.
Power: You may add your Wisdom modifier to any Charisma (Persuasion) checks you make. In addition, when you hit with a melee attack you may use a warlock spell slot to deal an additional amount of radiant or necrotic damage equal to 1d6 for each level of the slot level expended.

Troll
A drop of troll blood stands suspended in a wax poppet, seeming to shiver and grow inside of the wax body.
Power: You are constantly transmuting into yourself, and are immune to any spell or effect that would alter your form. In addition, at the start of each of your turns when you have less than half of your hit points you regain half of the damage dealt to you in the last turn. This regeneration does not function if you took acid or fire damage in the last turn.

Merfolk
Two webbed fingers are preserved in a small glass orb of seawater, which also contains sand from the bottom of the deep ocean.
Power: You can breathe water, gain a swim speed equal to your movement speed, and can speak Aquan.

Nightmare
The hoof of a Nightmare was used to create this charcoal sketch of the fires of hell and a broken wing in flames.
Power: You gain resistance to fire damage. In addition, you may use a bonus action to summon two fragments of hellfire, which cast dim light in a 20 foot radius and follow behind you. The fragments may be dismissed as a bonus action. You may extinguish a summoned hellfire fragment to cast hellish rebuke without expending a spell slot. After you use this feature twice you cannot use it again until you finish a long rest.

Dreadcaster Vathras
Vathras, who removed his own eye to replace it with the ill-fated Eye of Vecna, kept his eye dried and preserved in the vain hope that it could one day be restored after his use of the Eye was complete.
Power: You have advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects. In addition, your number of warlock spell slots increases by 50%, rounded down. An updated version of this homebrew lies in my signature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20886261&postcount=285). Let me know if you have any questions!

Let me know if it makes sense and is reasonable.

Ezekiel Moon
2016-06-13, 05:51 PM
Personally, I love it. Even though my initial idea for the likenesses somewhat resembled invocations, I was a bit too focused on the idea of it being an original class to think of it as a subclass for Warlock, but clearly I should have. (I also like the hag concept, and at some point I may use that idea to make a Warlock who serves Baba Yaga... been on a bit of a Baba Yaga kick lately, but that's a story for another forum.)

zeek0
2016-06-14, 12:00 AM
I like the idea of changing the theme of the patron to be an old crone (such as Baba Yaga) instead of a hag coven.

And here's the College of Relics, which fills the need for a reliquist I think:

College of Relics
Bards of the College of Relics know the power of symbols, and the power to elevate above the mundane. Objects have a symbolic power. They can represent great change, power, or control over the world. Reliquists draw power from this symbolic nature of objects, especially ancient relics or modern creations. Objects can be the center of a story or the symbol of a kingdom Ė and in the hands of a reliquist become much more.
Frequently, the College of Relics is a part within the College of Lore. But where lore bards are concerned with knowledge, reliquists are concerned with the preservation of history and its artifacts.

Bonus Proficiencies
When you become a Reliquist at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in History and Investigation.

Bind Relic
You are able to draw power from the symbolic nature of objects. You may bind yourself to any object, but objects of historical, modern, or personal significance grant the most power.
To bind yourself you an object, you must spend 1 hour in meditation. You may only be bound to one object at one time, and you cannot possess a number of relics greater than half your bard level, rounded up.
Examples of relics are listed below. When you create a new relic, work with your DM to determine its effect.

Object Reading
At 6th level, you may call up visions of the past and future of an object. You spend at least 1 minute in concentration, then receive dreamlike, shadowy glimpses of the past and future.
After one minute, you see visions of the objectís previous owner. You learn how the owner acquired and lost the object, as well as the most recent significant event involving the object and that owner.
You also gain a vision about the future of the object. The DM describes a single significant visual scene involving the object in the future. The scene may be vague, blurred, or distorted by the flow of time.
Once you use this feature, you cannot use it again until you complete a long rest.

Multiple Bindings
At 14th level, you may bind yourself to two relics at the same time.

Example Relics
The power you gain from a relic is based around the objectís intended use and historical application, and less to do with the objectís inherent powers.

Horbís Hammer
This hammer, created by the village blacksmith named Horb to aid him in his craft, has formed many horseshoes and ploughshares.
Power: You gain proficiency with blacksmithís tools.
Heart Shaped Locket
This golden locket was given to the Lady Rhelia by the skald Vorian. Inside contains a painted portrait of the illustrious musician Vorian.
Power: Enemies have disadvantage on enchantment spells you cast against them, and you gain advantage on Charisma (Persuasion) checks.

Sun-Forged Blade
This blade was wielded by Prince Valens, passed down the line of eldest princes and princesses of Krimm. it was left behind in the ruins of Krimm when it fell to the aberration forces of Grishnia.
Power: You gain proficiency with this blade. The blade shines with bright light in a 20 foot radius and dim light for an additional 20 feet. You gain advantage on attack rolls against aberrations.

Sanguine Chalice
This chalice was used over the course of 15 years by the Duchess Limess. While the chalice itself was not magical, it was the receptacle for the blood of young villagers that was consumed in a magical ritual to extend the Duchessís life.
Power: You are immune to disease. In addition, if you smear the inside of the cup with the blood of a freshly killed humanoid the cup fills to the brim with a red liquid. If you or another creature drinks the liquid, they regain hit points equal to 1d8 for every two bard levels you have. After you use the chalice you may not use it again until you complete a short rest.

Assassinís Blade
Stamped with the royal symbol of House Darzin, this dagger was the only evidence left behind after killing the most holy priest of the Rainbow Prince. This assassination started the holy wars between the Rainbow Prince and King Darzin, despite the King denying any involvement in the slaying.
Power: When you make a weapon attack against a target who is unaware of your presence, you deal an additional amount of damage equal to 1d6 for every 2 bard levels you have. In addition, a mark or evidence is made at the scene which obviously indicates a third party at work.
An updated version of this homebrew lies in my signature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20886261&postcount=285). Let me know if you have any questions!

Ezekiel Moon
2016-06-14, 12:45 AM
These are some really brilliant ideas. I'll have to give them a try sometime, after fleshing out the lists a bit.

zeek0
2016-06-14, 03:40 PM
This might sound strange, but I suggest... not fleshing out the lists.

The lists provide a baseline for power and concept when you create new likenesses/relics.

But my hope is that while in the midst of the game a player can say "Hey, I'd like to make a puppet of that noble.", or "What would happen if I stole the Necronomicon and attuned myself to it?" Then they talk with their DM and between themselves come up with something.

I suppose that I want the ability to be descriptive, not prescriptive. If you make a list of 40 relics, then it is a menu that you can choose from when you get your third level feature. If it is only a list of 5 example relics, you might start thinking about trinkets you carry, objects you have interacted with in the past, or treasures you will come upon in the future.

Even the crafting of likenesses for creatures can be difficult. I can imagine an alternate Nightmare likeness power:

Power: You gain resistance to fire damage. In addition, you may use an action to summon the spirit aspect of the slain Nightmare to your aid for a short time. Yourself and up to three other creatures within 5 feet of you magically enter the Border Ethereal from the Material Plane, as the Etherealness spell. This effect ends after one round.

And I'm sure that there's a bunch of other powers you could draw from the Nightmare. Pre-defining it somehow constrains players from imagining how their character would channel a creature's power.

A menu just feels wrong, like it denies the player the discovery and creation of the likeness/relic.


That's just my feeling though - you can of course do with it as you will. I'll be interested in what you think either way.

Ezekiel Moon
2016-06-15, 02:06 AM
You do have a point, it's just... I feel like making the DM do extra work for a player's class feature isn't really fair; it's my only complaint about the Wild Magic Sorcerer, a concept I otherwise love. I dunno, I think at least monster likenesses can afford to have a few more defined options, but I'll take your word for it for now and leave them up to the individual.

It would be kind of absurd to attempt to define a list of relics, but I don't see any examples for the "personal" relic category. Unless Horb's Hammer was meant to be that? The things that spring to mind for me are a tin of ash from your destroyed hometown or a symbol of an order that has accepted you as an initiate.