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Fflewddur Fflam
2016-06-11, 05:04 PM
Sorcerer has long been one of my favorite classes so I was a little disappointed when I started playing 5e and noticed that the game-designers aren't very big fans of the class.
Remember how sorcerer used to be so cool because of flexible casting? Now, EVERY spellcaster has flexible casting. Remember when the sorcerer could cast more spells per day than the wizard? Not anymore.

Basically, the only thing the sorc has going for him in 5e is metamagic, which is cool but is also a bit hamstrung. Here are some fun little alterations that I would provide to any sorc who was playing a game I was DMing, let me know what you think.

Converting a Spell Slot to Sorcery Points. You use the “Creating Spell Slots” table when determining how many sorcery points are created from converting a spell slot. (Felt like a screwjob that it isn't the same cost going in reverse).

METAMAGIC
Careful Spell: a chosen creature protected by this metamagic automatically succeeds on their saving throws against the spell, and they take no damage if they would normally take half damage on a successful save. (Bringing this in line with the Evoker's "sculpt spells".)

DRACONIC BLOODLINE
Dragon Ancestor (Optional): When the character chooses the type of dragon as their ancestor, they may choose a specific damage type pertaining to spells in the Sorcerer spell list. The damage type for those spells now always deals the sorcerer’s draconic damage type rather than the damage listed in the spell. The sorcerer is prohibited from ever taking a spell that doesn’t convert that selected damage type to their draconic damage type.
Example: A sorcerer at 1st level chooses a Black Dragon as his ancestor which does the Acid damage type. He then decides that any sorcerer spell that does fire damage will instead do acid damage. Thus a fireball spell would do acid damage instead of fire, for example. Any time a sorcerer chooses to know a spell from his sorcerer spell list that does fire damage, it must always do acid damage (i.e. the sorcerer in this example would never be able to cast a spell that does fire damage).

Kryx
2016-06-11, 06:06 PM
My sorcerer houserules:

Houserule (Buff): Sorcerers gain 2 metamagic at level 3 as normal, and gain an additional one at 7, 11, 15, and 19.
Houserule (Buff): Sorcerous Restoration. At 5th level you regain 2 expended sorcery points whenever you finish a short rest. This increases to 3 at 10th, 4 at 15th, and 5 at 20th. See giantItP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427376-Wizards-vs-Sorcerer-Spell-List&p=19528547#post_19528547) for comments on this
Houserule (Buff): Give extra spells known based on Origin. See Sorcerous Origins (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aGlSiAbLxyN04vmaOjDt1os3jVy9PhN2iNLvc19I7XU/edit)
Houserule (Buff): Combine spell lists with the Wizard. See the Sorcerer specific spells added to his list under his section.


Your ideas seem nice, but are no where near enough imo.

SharkForce
2016-06-11, 06:50 PM
careful spell is fine. you just stop using it on fireball, and start using it on web, and you will see that it does not need to be made any stronger ;)

Fflewddur Fflam
2016-06-11, 07:56 PM
My sorcerer houserules:

Houserule (Buff): Sorcerers gain 2 metamagic at level 3 as normal, and gain an additional one at 7, 11, 15, and 19.
Houserule (Buff): Sorcerous Restoration. At 5th level you regain 2 expended sorcery points whenever you finish a short rest. This increases to 3 at 10th, 4 at 15th, and 5 at 20th. See giantItP (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427376-Wizards-vs-Sorcerer-Spell-List&p=19528547#post_19528547) for comments on this
Houserule (Buff): Give extra spells known based on Origin. See Sorcerous Origins (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aGlSiAbLxyN04vmaOjDt1os3jVy9PhN2iNLvc19I7XU/edit)
Houserule (Buff): Combine spell lists with the Wizard. See the Sorcerer specific spells added to his list under his section.


Your ideas seem nice, but are no where near enough imo.

Interesting stuff! Thanks.

Fflewddur Fflam
2016-06-11, 07:58 PM
careful spell is fine. you just stop using it on fireball, and start using it on web, and you will see that it does not need to be made any stronger ;)

What?? People use web in 5e??

SharkForce
2016-06-11, 08:52 PM
What?? People use web in 5e??

it's quite strong. restrained is a potent condition to inflict on a large area, and it costs an action to even attempt to get out of it (and it's a check, not a save, so save proficiencies don't help. it helps your attacker attack, it makes decent AC good and good AC great, not many things are immune to it, it can be cast along the floor, wall, or even into the air to down a flying opponent (it only lasts 1 round when you use it that way, but it can be worth it), it keeps melee enemies from getting to you, it keeps anyone from running away, and then on top of that many of the more difficult enemies in the game have poor dex saves... web is just good.

and when you cast a careful web, your melee warriors can walk right into it and automatically pass their saves. (it shouldn't be entirely necessary, since they should all be capable of attacking at range anyways, but it does sometimes help to have your warriors able to just stand in the web, or stinking cloud, or whatever else, and completely ignore the effects because they always make their save).

Fflewddur Fflam
2016-06-12, 12:45 AM
Huh! Thanks for the info.

famousringo
2016-06-12, 01:24 AM
What?? People use web in 5e??

Also good with Hypnotic Pattern, Stinking Cloud, Confusion. But it's a pretty short list of spells you'd want to use with it. Niche usage is the problem with half the metamagics, really. With only two picks for half your career, you want to pick something you're going to use very frequently with a lot of spells.

That being said, I don't think there's anything wrong with your changes. Makes Careful pretty strong, but still a tough choice compared to Twin and Quicken.

Fflewddur Fflam
2016-06-12, 02:51 AM
Also good with Hypnotic Pattern, Stinking Cloud, Confusion. But it's a pretty short list of spells you'd want to use with it. Niche usage is the problem with half the metamagics, really. With only two picks for half your career, you want to pick something you're going to use very frequently with a lot of spells.

That being said, I don't think there's anything wrong with your changes. Makes Careful pretty strong, but still a tough choice compared to Twin and Quicken.

Thanks, yeah twin and quicken are always the must haves. I think empowered is pretty nice when you've rolled crappy on an AoE damage spell.

Discord
2016-06-12, 09:12 AM
One of the alterations we thought about doing to the Sorcerer was this.

You gain your Metamagic's as normal, 3rd, 10th, 17th (although we've also been debating this) and the Metamagic's you choose at this level you become 'Proficient" in.

A Sorcerer is then able to cast all the Metamagic's on their list, however those Metmagic's they are not proficient in cost double Metamagic points.

I feel like a good number of the Metamagic options are situational at best and thought this was a good fix for Sorcerers.

That, and we've toyed around with the fact of giving extra spells at certain levels depending on the Sorcerer origin you have taken.

Sir cryosin
2016-06-12, 10:15 AM
I was thinking opening up all the meta- magic to sorcerer. So they don't have to pick how op do ya'll think that would be.

Dalebert
2016-06-12, 10:38 AM
I felt that way about sorcerers until I had to play one for a friend who had to leave early. I started getting creative with his metamagics and he was suddenly the star of the show. I now have a wizard and a sorcerer (technically a sorlock who is primarily sorcerer) and I frankly have way more fun playing the sorcerer. The wizard is more versatile with spell choices but I find that in actual play, it doesn't feel as great as it seems like it would be. He still has to choose a limited number prepared and tends to prepare the same ones most of the time. I keep finding situations where I'm wishing I'd prepared something different but I didn't so *shrug*. I just don't feel as versatile as a wizard is presented as being.

My sorcerer has subtle spell and twinned and I picked his spells based on those choices. He has Hex from warlock and thus is brutal in social interactions. I can subtle spell Hex someone's resisting stat (usually wisdom) in the middle of a negotiation or an intimidation attempt. I can subtle spell with buffs so enemies don't know to target me to end concentration. A twinned firebolt only costs 1 sorc point and after level 5, it's almost comparable to Scorching Ray which costs a 2nd level slot. Twinned Haste means I can buff myself along with a melee which helps me have more fun and do more things while aiding in maintaining concentration. There are just all sorts of ways to feel dynamic and versatile just by having a couple of metamagic options with a limited spell selection.

famousringo
2016-06-12, 12:15 PM
I was thinking opening up all the meta- magic to sorcerer. So they don't have to pick how op do ya'll think that would be.

They're still constrained by sorcery points and not being able to use more than one at once, so not crazy OP, but that would really boost versatility.

Some say that the versatility of being able to apply their spells in different ways makes up for all the versatility lost by having the smallest spell repertoire, but I've never felt that the trade off was worth it. Your alteration would certainly change my mind.

Only problem is that by putting all metamagic at level 3, you make it readily accessible to any caster for a 3 level dip.

Fflewddur Fflam
2016-06-12, 05:26 PM
Heightened Spell is pretty lame as written. You have to spend 3 sorcery points just to make ONE creature have disadvantage on its first save to a spell? It should be for all creatures that have to save versus the spell for that many sorcery points.

Kryx
2016-06-12, 05:30 PM
Heightened Spell is pretty lame as written. You have to spend 3 sorcery points just to make ONE creature have disadvantage on its first save to a spell? It should be for all creatures that have to save versus the spell for that many sorcery points.
Compare it to Portent. Both are really good. High chance that the boss fails his save for a strong CC is huuuuge.

famousringo
2016-06-13, 12:58 PM
Heightened Spell is pretty lame as written. You have to spend 3 sorcery points just to make ONE creature have disadvantage on its first save to a spell? It should be for all creatures that have to save versus the spell for that many sorcery points.

Expensive but powerful. It's to be used against the biggest and the baddest, not against a bunch of mooks that you wanna Fireball.

There are few ways to negatively modify an enemy's save. Heighten is powerful because it kicks in early and is reusable. Portent has limited uses. Bend Luck is level 6 and can stack with Heighten, making wild sorcerers basically the best debuffers in the game. Magical Ambush and Eldritch Strike are good, but they're deep into semi-caster classes and come with special conditions.

Edit: And it's worth noting that none of these abilities affect more than a single creature's saving throw.

Socratov
2016-06-13, 02:38 PM
My personal fixes for the sorcerer are thus:

sorcerypoints and spellslosts use the table to exchange both ways. Flexibility with a fixed list is what the sorc makes. not trading them back and forth. The fact that you need to sacrifice more to get a higher lvl slot and get more when you sacrifice a higher level slot makes sense.

Wild magic triggers on a 1 on a d4. Yes, the chance you get the fireball of doom centered on you is bigger, but the sole reason to playing a wild magic sorcerer is wild magic surges. They are fun, they are wild, and they increase coolness/funny. Never should a classfeature be about what essentially amounts to a critical failure on a roll you can't make as aften as a physical attacker.

From lvl 3 onwards all metamagic is available to you. So, we've got only 15 spells over your entire career and for the first half of it we only get 2 ways to change them? That's like telling that now you've given a beggar a gold pice that he is now richt and should pay taxes. Frankly it's absurd and stupid and still restricted in use by sorcerypoints anyway (and you can't use them in tandem except for empower anyway)

Oh, and quicken is good, but it should have given the sorcerer an option to cast 2 spells in one turn and carry the same cost as Twin: the spell you are trying to quicken should cost the same as the spell level. It does, however, allow you to cast a second leveled spell that turn, when using quicken it always applies at the highest level spell you are trying to cast that turn. this way it will be very strong, but also cost lots of resources.

Restoration of sorcerypoints. Come on! Even the wizard and land druid can get back some of their spellslots during a short rest, I'd say that at least you;d give the sorcerer the same.