Illusionist: Wizard vs. Warlock (especially at low level)

[Segev]

This may come off as a bit of a rant, and if so, i apologize and hope people can point out cool things I'm missing.

It seems to me that a 2nd level warlock is a much better illusionist than a 2nd level wizard of the illusionist subclass, and remains so up to about 7th level, where the wizard finally has spells which really do things the warlock can't mimic with combinations of his abilities that he's had since 2nd, or maybe 4th level.

A warlock with minor illusion, the silent image evocation, and the disguise self evocation will be able to do pretty much everything the 2nd level wizard could do, and do it all day long and with more whimsy (changing out illusions as he likes since he can do it at will). Even major image isn't too much of a jump over what the warlock can do with minor illusion's sound and silent image's looks; the illusionist's power to do both image and sound with the cantrip lets him play the poor-man's equivalent. He can use the same two spells, of course, but his compliment of 1st level spell slots is burned up fast if he tries to be as versatile and long-lasting as the warlock.

When the wizard hits sixth level, he gains the power to stretch his illusions a bit; making his silent image change to another one without even having to cast a spell is an advantage, and lets him have multiple different illusions throughout its duration (keeping up with and even doing a touch better than the warlock, who has to re-cast the spell, but can do so without worrying about resource limits). But the warlock still out-lasts him (admittedly by design choice between the two classes, but in the illusionist wizard's big schtick it's a little frustrating, since the wizard can't "go big" to make up for it).

By 7th level, the illusionist wizard finally has hallucinatory terrain, which is at last something the warlock can't fake particularly well (what with the terrain being 24 hours duration without concentration...and malleable illusions making it a very potent illusion to warp and shift, indeed). But that's 7th level before the wizard who specializes in illusion can overtake the warlock who invested only a couple levels' worth of choices into it. The wizard, one level earlier, had devoted 6 levels to it, and was able to do just about as much for short bursts.


Am I missing something? Is there anything the low-level illusionist can do to make it so that he wouldn't hypothetically be eclipsed by the warlock-illusionist in the same party? Is there anything he can do that actually is a stand-out improvement or difference, rather than something that the low-level warlock can replicate?

[ClintACK]

The 5e Warlock is the extreme magical specialist.

He's going to be better at the thing he specializes in.

The 5e Wizard's advantage is all the other stuff he can do.

The 2nd level Warlock has:
- Minor Illusion
- Eldritch Blast
- 2 short-rest spell slots for
- 2 Prepared spells: Hex and Hellish Rebuke
- Silent Image at will
- Disguise Self at will

The 2nd level Wizard:
- Minor Illusion -- the advanced version
- Light
- Mage Hand
- Ray of Frost (or your favorite attack cantrip)
- 3 long-rest lvl 1 spell slots
+ 1 on a short rest 1/day.
- 5 Prepared spells: Disguise Self, Silent Image,
Sleep, Feather Fall, and Shield
- Ritual Caster (Unseen Servant, Floating Disc, Identify)


Yes, the Warlock can cast Silent Image and Disguise Self at will, instead of using spell slots. And he does a bit better on DPR. But the Warlock is a two-trick pony. It's either an illusion or an eldritch blast.

The trade-off is that the Wizard adds tons of situational utility. He's more flexible. He can do the illusions, and he can do damage. He can also put a couple of goblins to sleep. If it's dark, he has Light. Need to grab something? Mage Hand. Someone falls in a pit? Feather Fall. Big monster hits him? Shield. Out of combat, he can take ten minutes and ID that magic item, send an Unseen Servant to sweep for traps, or carry 500 lbs of treasure.

Sure. The Warlock can cast illusions all day long. But that doesn't overshadow the Wizard's strength -- which is situational utility.

[JellyPooga]

The 5e Warlock is the extreme magical specialist.

He's going to be better at the thing he specializes in.

The 5e Wizard's advantage is all the other stuff he can do.


Yeah, basically this. Don't be fooled by the title Wizards get (Illusionist, Diviner, etc.); every Wizard in 5ed is really a generalist who happens to have a set of school-related class features. Wizards are not, as a rule, specialists; they're strength is in their versatility, not their raw arcane strength (Sorcerer) or staying power (Warlock).

[Dalebert]

And as you said, the wizard will gain yet more illusionist power as he levels while the warlock will still be doing low-level parlor tricks, albeit at-will. It bugs me that warlocks seem very front-loaded in such a way that a 2-level dip is very tempting but that they're less tempting as a main class choice. That said, I didn't quite get the post. Basically, "One class is better at a certain fairly specific thing at a certain time than another class." Okay. And? It's just assumed for some reason that a wizard who specialized in illusions by choosing that and paying the opportunity cost of other wizard class features is supposed to be better than a warlock who specialized in illusions by choosing that and paying the opportunity cost of other warlock class features.

[Segev]

I suppose my issue is that, if you want to play "an illusionist" as a character concept (independent of titles given to classes), you play a warlock if you're playing low level, but you play a wizard if you're playing high level. And there's no transition. So if you are playing a game that's going from low to high level, you have to intentionally play less of a talented illusionist than you could at low level lest you be less of an illusionist than you could be at high level.

[MrStabby]

One pattern I see (I hope I remember correctly) with a lot of illusion spells is that there is little bonus to casting them from a higher spell slot. Your level 2 illusion spells are great use of a level 2 slot. If all you have is a level 5 slot to use it is much more of a cost.

[Segev]

One pattern I see (I hope I remember correctly) with a lot of illusion spells is that there is little bonus to casting them from a higher spell slot. Your level 2 illusion spells are great use of a level 2 slot. If all you have is a level 5 slot to use it is much more of a cost.

While a warlock can learn various illusion spells as spells, the thing that makes him more impressive as an illusionist at low level is that he can make an illusion of a creature or phenomenon any time he needs to, and alter it at will as well as a wizard of 6th+ level.

So the spell slot thing doesn't really matter much for this discussion. (Adding it in means that the Warlock can pull out 2 major images per short rest, vs. the wizard having to ration his a bit more carefully.)

Certainly, being a specialist with more reliable resources is the warlock working as designed. But it is just plain annoying that to play "an illusionist" requires choosing whether you'll be much less of an illusionist at low level, or much more of one at high level; you don't get to be an illusionist at all levels unless you throw out your build around level 7-9 and respec from warlock to wizard entirely.

[Naanomi]

Of course, Warlock 2/Wizard X can get the best of both worlds by and large

[Vogonjeltz]

Am I missing something? Is there anything the low-level illusionist can do to make it so that he wouldn't hypothetically be eclipsed by the warlock-illusionist in the same party? Is there anything he can do that actually is a stand-out improvement or difference, rather than something that the low-level warlock can replicate?

Well, the Illusionist can create a sound and image in one go courtesy of improved minor illusion, whereas the Warlock can not.

So, that's potentially kind of a big difference. Doing this stuff all day is costing the Warlock their Invocations however, so that's a fairly huge cost in my book, whereas the Illusionist can have a bunch of alternative options thanks to the Flex of the Wizard.

[ClintACK]

I suppose my issue is that, if you want to play "an illusionist" as a character concept (independent of titles given to classes), you play a warlock if you're playing low level, but you play a wizard if you're playing high level.

This is the bit where I think we have a philosophical difference. If I were playing that 2nd level wizard, it wouldn't bother me that somewhere in hypothetical-possible-character space there was a different build that would have given me more daily uses of Silent Image (in case three to four times a day wasn't enough), at the expense of nearly everything else I can do.

The two builds *play* completely differently.

In social encounters, the Warlock is a star. He's got Disguise Self and illusion support for his high charisma and (I'd assume) proficient social skills. The Wizard sits in the corner reading his book, or admiring the fine scrollwork on that column.

In combat, they will both toss out a Silent Image if the circumstances are right. Otherwise, they are both tossing a ranged damage cantrip. (And the Warlock doesn't get agonizing or repelling.) But from time to time the Wizard will be a star with Sleep.

In a wide range of skill-type challenges -- traversing the side of a mountain, dealing with a minefield, searching (Investigation), research (Knowledge) and so on, the Wizard has a bigger bag of tricks to reach into, while the Warlock looks around for something to blast or makes random illusions because he's bored.

The Wizard and the Warlock are very different characters. The ability to cast a 5th Silent Image in a day is a really small part of the ways they are different.


Of course, Warlock 2/Wizard X can get the best of both worlds by and large

Mechanically, it's not bad -- two extra short-rest slots with the whole wizard's spell book to use in them. But giving up the top rank of spells (and Illusionist features) hurts -- At 14th level, when the pure Illusionist 14 has Illusory Reality and Mirage Arcana, you may wonder why you thought unlimited uses of Silent Image (with a much lower save DC than most of your illusions) was worth giving up two levels of wizard. Heck, even at 7th level, you're giving up Hallucinatory Terrain and Greater Invisibility and Malleable Illusions.

[Joe the Rat]

A Warlock at 2nd level:


Can disguise self and cast silent images all day. With two castings, the Warlock can make a silent image with a minor illusion sound. The Illusionist can make a noisy illusion in one casting.
Can detect magic by blinking and can read any language, or one of those and see in any darkness. That's a fairly decent at being a "diviner". The Diviner gets to pick rolls for the day. You can't keep up with with that using friends and Hex.
Can add casting stat to cantrip damage and knock people around, and still have some decent pocket tricks to hurt people and/or set them on fire. How do we compare to 3 (4) daily slots on an evoker 2? The evoker is better at not burning (or thundering) his friends, and has a lot more options on how to inflict damage.
Can use at-will Mage Armor and False Life (or use a little infernal murderboosting) to have more hp through the day than an abjurer 2 could hope for. The Abjurer can stack thp and ward for a larger "false meat" shield - a larger blow that the cleric doesn't need to worry about. And he sleeps better at night.
Has 5 or so fewer spells available (and 3 or so fewer prepared) compared to any wizard.

Warlocks peak in High School.

You can make a Warlock that's very good at one trick. That trick can be changed out over the course of several levels. A Wizard just needs to pick up a different set of spells for the day, probably has more options ready now, and will in time get better and more diverse in their specialties than a Warlock. And Wizards will always be better outside of their one trick than the Warlock will. A more "well rounded" Warlock will not match a wizard in his specialty at any level.