Warsong: The Fall Of Eldorande

[Skullz4Trophies]

Hey, everyone! So I wanted to open up a discussion here to talk about my game, Warsong: The Fall Of Eldorande. It's a game where you play an agent of destiny, chosen by ancient beings to steer the course of history. We're in the last 48 hours of our Kickstarter, but this thread is more for a bit of a Q & A and suggestion forum to talk about the game, itself. One of the biggest reasons I like hearing from my players is because, in the future, Warsong will become a living setting, getting published, cannon material based on what the players do, and how they accomplished the goals of specific adventure paths.

So, any questions about the game? :D

[khadgar567]

a link for preview pdf would be nice

[Final Hyena]

Link to the kickstarter page. (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2103913595/warsong-fall-of-eldorande-rpg-players-guide)
Not sure if this is considered advertisement or not, just thought it would aid the discussion.

The kickstarter page don't explain the game mechanics very well. From the look of it you have a d20 system which relies on opposed rolls rather than set DCs.
The Faq says;

Warsong uses a very modified d20 mechanic. We took that foundation and made it much more streamlined and interactive.
That really doesn't explain much, you can have a variety of different play experiences on a d20 system, also how is it streamlined and interactive?

The faq on class and leveling really doesn't explain it too well;

There is a level system. Classes are done in a different way. You will choose your constellation, which determines your main destiny. Then, you'll have an Accord which is a middle path. The Accord how you apply yourself to your destiny. Your levels will work with your Constellation and Accord to determine your abilities, powers, spells, hit points, magic points, etc.
Destiny. Accord. Middle path. Destiny again. This really isn't very clear. You are giving us words with little context.

It says magic is different from the casting/day norm. It relies on mana that recharges on rests/with potions. Most of those casting/day systems are essentially taking a rest through the night. That doesn't sound very different to me.

Generally I would like to know more about the mechanics or;

a link for preview pdf would be nice
What he said.

[Skullz4Trophies]

That really doesn't explain much, you can have a variety of different play experiences on a d20 system, also how is it streamlined and interactive?

Streamlined by boiling down complicated rules into their root without taking away gameplay. Interactive, for example, because combat is not just an "Hit against AC", there is more to it.


Destiny. Accord. Middle path. Destiny again. This really isn't very clear. You are giving us words with little context.
Was that a question?


It says magic is different from the casting/day norm. It relies on mana that recharges on rests/with potions. Most of those casting/day systems are essentially taking a rest through the night. That doesn't sound very different to me.
A completely revised casting system with unique spells and spellcasting methods is quite different.


Generally I would like to know more about the mechanics or;
It is very similar to the OGL, with a lot of tweaks. Combat is more involved, as mentioned, with actions that can be taken by both the attacker and defender. There are also destiny actions which can be taken by using your destiny points.



a link for preview pdf would be nice
What he said.
If you want the book, you can always back the project on Kickstarter, or pick it up when it comes to stores. :)

Thanks for the responses! If you have more questions, or more specific ones, I'm happy to talk more!

[Final Hyena]

Streamlined by boiling down complicated rules into their root without taking away gameplay. Interactive, for example, because combat is not just an "Hit against AC", there is more to it.
Streamlined how?
Interactive how?
You say there is more to it, but you don't explain how it is different.


Was that a question?
Was that an answer?


A completely revised casting system with unique spells and spellcasting methods is quite different.
That sounds good in theory, but you don't explain the mechanics of spells. These unique spells sound good, but there are no examples of them.


It is very similar to the OGL, with a lot of tweaks. Combat is more involved, as mentioned, with actions that can be taken by both the attacker and defender. There are also destiny actions which can be taken by using your destiny points.
That sounds good, but you have failed to explain the actions beyond "there are actions." What kind of actions? All I have seen demonstrated is that defenders roll a defence stat instead of the alternative of having a set defence dc.


If you want the book, you can always back the project on Kickstarter, or pick it up when it comes to stores. :)
I want an idea of what I'm buying before spending money on it, I appreciate you can't just give the book away, but so far all I can see are buzzwords. Give us example of the kinds of attack and defence actions, a few of these unique spells one of the destinies.

[Skullz4Trophies]

I will repost this, which is from the Kickstarter, itself.


"Olaeya made her way through the thick woods that backed-in Mockingbird Bay. She moved swiftly through the undergrowth, fueled by her Constellation's blessings. The Arrow had become her closest and strongest ally in these nights as the prophecy of the Ninth Era crept in like a tidal wave. And as she moved through the Potter's Grounds of Mockingbird Bay, she felt her footfalls lighter than air as she moved. This was dangerous territory, and the breath of the dead could be heard all around her."

Olaeya is a Fated of the Arrow. She follows the Accord of the Warden. The accord is a mix of a Constellation's Destiny and how you view it. How it affects you and how you live it. As a Warden, Olaeya guards the wild places and ensures that those places are maintained and not encroached upon. As she travels through the Forests to the West of Mockingbird Bay, a known haunted land, she encounters a group of Angry Dead, beings who were never given a proper burial, and have been roused from the places their bodies had fallen to take revenge. She finds herself unable to escape and, as the Arrows are wont to do, springs into battle with a speed unmatched by any other Fated.

Initiative is rolled and, with the Arrow's Blessing, the slow-moving dead do not stand a chance to act before her. She goes first, springing forward with an attack of her Glasswork Windreaver. She rolls 1d20, and adds her weapon and attack bonuses to reach an attack score of 18. The Angry Dead rolls their defense, but only score a 5. Her Windreaver strikes clean through and she rolls her damage, an 8 on 2d6! The Angry Dead are hard to put down, and have a natural armor soak of 1d4, and rolls a 2. She inflicts 6 damage on the Angry Dead! Since it only has a hit points of 8, it is below its threshold, and considered crippled, taking a -2 penalty to all rolls for the rest of combat.

Will Olaeya survive, or will the Angry Dead add another to their rank?

So there's a basic outline of combat, and an idea of how it can become more interactive at the very least.

[Markoff Chainey]

What I can read out of the text, how combat works is...

Roll Initiative
- apply iniative bonuses and effects, add roll

Winner makes a weapon attack
- roll d20, add weapon bonus, add attack bonus

Defender rolls defense
- compare attack result against defense result

Calculate Damage
- Roll damage according to weapon die
- Roll armor according to armor
- substract armor from damage, compare to injury treshold

You have rolls for everything!

Sorry, I fail to see anything exiting in that. I am really happy about the passive defense system in D&D because in other systems where you roll for your defense combat slows down to a creep and gets way too much stage time. (Although active and passive defenses can be interesting mechanically.) But now you also add a roll for armor! What might be interesting, because with a fixed damage soak of say... "6" - a d6 weapon could not hurt you at all, but with a d6 damage soak, 100 darts with d2 are highly likely to be lethal... BUT why did no other system implement something like that before? Because it gets incredibly slow...

Same with the injuries... sure, it is very interesting! you can add injuries, you could work with exhaustion too... but it gets clumsy and slow and in the end, you want a mental cinema and a quick fight. From what is described here, I am with Final Hyaena, its a lot of fluff without "meat".

[Final Hyena]

From what is described here, I am with Final Hyaena, its a lot of fluff without "meat".
Did you look through the kickstarter? It looks suspect to me, nowhere does it claim to be a tweaked ogl, if anything it appears to be it's own unique thing. Which is misleading.

The stretch goals are covered up in a way that makes them hard to read, and they were not being updated (notice the 750 one not being unlocked) makes me think they really didn't care.

When is the expected release date?

It says;

This game has been written, playtested and most of the work is complete and finalized.
Which brings up some points they never addressed, where will the money will go? And why isn't there some sort of preview beyond "we roll defence stats."

The creator answers questions as vaguely as possible. Which leads me to believe he doesn't understand much about tabletop mechanics. Either he thinks that rolling defence stats is good enough or he realises it isn't and is just after a bit of money. Either way he's charging $20 for what anyone can whip up fairly easily.

All in all it sounds like either a scam or a bad product.

[Skullz4Trophies]

Thanks for the responses, everyone!

W've had a successful Kickstarter, and are looking forward to what lies in the future for the game!

[Markoff Chainey]

All in all it sounds like either a scam or a bad product.

I did not want to put it that directly, but those were my thoughts too :)

[Skullz4Trophies]

http://f.tqn.com/y/netforbeginners/1/W/-/V/haters.jpg

https://highergroundsgamingblog.wordpress.com/2016/06/19/free-rpg-day-was-a-hit/

[Final Hyena]

Oh no! Memes and picture of a few people playing (It appears that only the people at your table a grand total of 7 are involved). All my concerns have been put to rest.

Also from looking at the pictures of the sheets it is just DnD with a rollable defence and soak with hero points.

[Elodin]

Oh no! Memes and picture of a few people playing (It appears that only the people at your table a grand total of 7 are involved). All my concerns have been put to rest.

Also from looking at the pictures of the sheets it is just DnD with a rollable defence and soak with hero points.
Even if you don't appreciate the game, the creators obviously worked hard on it and had a lot of patience to put up with your constant disparagment and even try to answer all your questions. I think that it's really uncool to be so snarky about this game. And honestly, if you have to resort to sarcasm to keep your point floating, you know that you're failing. And remember, the opinion of thousands of dollars and hard evidence of the game being fun from 7 people is worth more than the disrespectful and rude comments of two people.

[Final Hyena]

Even if you don't appreciate the game, the creators obviously worked hard on it and had a lot of patience to put up with your constant disparagment and even try to answer all your questions.
How do you know he worked hard on it? All he has revealed is that ac is rolled, DR is rolled, there is a damage threshold penalty and hero points.
But he didn't respond to the concerns.


I think that it's really uncool to be so snarky about this game.
I think asking for money for a product while dodging questions about it, is uncool.


And honestly, if you have to resort to sarcasm to keep your point floating, you know that you're failing.
My points mean nothing because I'm sarcastic in response to his ignoring the concerns with memes?


And remember, the opinion of thousands of dollars and hard evidence of the game being fun from 7 people is worth more than the disrespectful and rude comments of two people.
Throughout the history of bad products and scams a thousand dollars is a drop in the ocean.
A few people enjoying it isn't crazy, it's so far been shown to be a slightly tweaked 5E.
I believe charging $20+ for the promise of a product with very little about it shown is disrespectful and rude.

[Markoff Chainey]

This very thread is nothing but an ad and by that actually against the forum rules.

I do not care what a hundred people say when they were paid to do so. - And being part of a project qualifies as being paid.

[Elodin]

Do you have any proof that he didn't work hard? I'll let you on on a little secret: designing a game system is almost always hard, even if it's a retooling.

[JBPuffin]

Even if you don't appreciate the game, the creators obviously worked hard on it and had a lot of patience to put up with your constant disparagment and even try to answer all your questions. I think that it's really uncool to be so snarky about this game. And honestly, if you have to resort to sarcasm to keep your point floating, you know that you're failing. And remember, the opinion of thousands of dollars and hard evidence of the game being fun from 7 people is worth more than the disrespectful and rude comments of two people.

Your response seems a little over the top, and it defeats itself. Hyena didn't really deserve vitriol for making two observations...Neither did the guy who notes that, in essence, this is just an ad. For it to be anything else, the OP needed to actually post something for us to critique, so Markoff has a point. You've got a point - hard to say how much effort was put in, which also means you could be wrong, too, if it's not terribly obvious as you suggest - but if Hyena's right, it's possible they only needed a couple hours to design this, maybe a total of 24 to get the Kickstarter up and running, edit some 5e sheets, and put the rewards together. No need to break out the flame :smallcool:.

[Final Hyena]

Do you have any proof that he didn't work hard? I'll let you on on a little secret: designing a game system is almost always hard, even if it's a retooling.
No, I have got proof of him ignoring concerns about his product which suggests he has no answers which suggests he hasn't worked hard on it.

Designing or reworking a system involves a lot of effort and thought, which is why I'm so concerned the designer has very little to say about his mechanics.

[Skullz4Trophies]

Look Hyena, the fact of the matter is that I didn't dodge your questions, I simply didn't take you seriously since from your level of snark right out of the gate, you didn't seem to be asking questions as much as you were simply attacking the game itself, and me. I didn't dodge anything, you simply never gave me a chance to give you an answer before you showed a massive attitude, and the answers I did give were snarked at as well. I hope you didn't honestly expect your attitude to be responded to as though you had a genuine interest. I've put a lot of work into this game, contrary to what you seem to believe, and you've been nothing but disrespectful. So, please stop slinging accusations and snark for no reason. Especially if you genuinely want answers to your questions.

And as for my game taking a few hours, I'd like to point out that you are not correct if that is your assumption. I'd bring some of the people who know the game and myself to vouch for it, but at this point I'd have a hard time believing you wouldn't think I simply paid them. This game has taken up a large portion of my time and savings, and has been more than a full time job for more than a few months, and a part time job for much longer than that.

Now that we're clear.. if we are done derailing, I'd appreciate it if we could open the thread back up for people who would genuinely like to talk about the game.

Thanks.

[Final Hyena]

Look Hyena, the fact of the matter is that I didn't dodge your questions, I simply didn't take you seriously since from your level of snark right out of the gate, you didn't seem to be asking questions as much as you were simply attacking the game itself, and me.
This sounds very personal, when you make a product you will get criticism.
Most people wont care or just say it's fine with no thought.
Criticism is unreliable as many just want to unload anger or have different tastes, however concerns should be considered as no one is perfect, everyone makes a mistake here or there. It's never easy to deal with criticism, but it can lead to progress.

Can you give an example of one destiny, accord and middle path?

Can you give an example of some unique spells?

Can you give a few examples of your attack/defence actions?

Why on your kickstarter is there no mention that it's based on the ogl?

Where will the money be spent?

Why are the stretch goals covered up in a hard to read way and not updated?

What is the difference between the books;

Warsong: Player's Guide
Warsong: Fall of Eldorande Player's Guide

The names are confusing.


These questions might seem aggressive, however when you are asked for money based on a promise from a stranger, can you not understand the concern?
You can reply that you're an amazingly wonderful guy, that the game is the next best thing, but we can't know that for sure, all we can see is what you show us of your product.
Show off your game, sing its qualities.

[Skullz4Trophies]

This sounds very personal, when you make a product you will get criticism.
Most people wont care or just say it's fine with no thought.
Criticism is unreliable as many just want to unload anger or have different tastes, however concerns should be considered as no one is perfect, everyone makes a mistake here or there. It's never easy to deal with criticism, but it can lead to progress.
I'm aware. My product is heavily criticized. There is a difference between that and what you were doing.


Can you give an example of one destiny, accord and middle path?
Middle-Path is just a term I used to describe an Accord. An Accord is basically a psychological "middle-path" between what your Constellation expects of you, and how you go about doing it. Accord is a lot more grounded in every day life, while your Constellation is more of a grand scheme destiny. For example, you can be under the Constellation of the Sword, which destines you to a life of conflict. The methods by which you take to your Constellation's path is your Accord, such as the Glory accord, which thrives in the thrill of victory and fame, or Vengeance Accord, who constantly moves against those who wrong him or his loved ones. Different paths (accords) for a single "truth". The constellation is the abstract and lofty destiny, while the accord is a grounded version, boiling it down to how your character goes about it.

One such example isthe one I give in the kickstarter for Olaeya. She is under the Constellation of the Arrow, but her accord is Warden. The Arrow puts a destiny of interposing herself between things she loves and those who would harm them, but the Warden specializes her into protecting the wild areas.


Can you give an example of some unique spells?
Sure! One of my favorite Obsidian Circle spells..

Description: This wicked spell summons forth necromantic energy that spreads from the caster and suffuses the land around her. During the spell, the caster defiles a corpse of a humanoid sentient creature, and must remove the heart of a creature killed by necrotic damage. She must consume the heart whole. At the end of the ritual, the character becomes a conduit for necromatic energy that she summons from another plane, and takes 8d12 damage when she must pull that energy across the realm of Gafhuir. If she dies from this damage, she immediately becomes undead, and the spell fails, as all of the energy condenses into her own body. The necrotic energy floods and suffuses the land around her, killing all plant life within 48 hours. The land becomes unfit to grow new crops. Natural animal life withers and dies within a week's time, and only the most hearty creatures can survive here. Undead creatures gain advantage to all rolls while in effected lands. People who die in this area have a 50% chance of becoming undead themselves. Lands such as these are typically home to the Deathless.


Can you give a few examples of your attack/defence actions?
Attacks, spells, grappling, defensive stances, martial arts, dodging, disarming, counterspells.



Why on your kickstarter is there no mention that it's based on the ogl?
Wasn't important, really. Especially considering the shrinking number of similarities between the two. Plus, if I have enough time before my release date, I plan to use a system of my own that I've been working on. Not to mention, a person working on an entire project of this magnitude by himself can't exactly remember everything. Small mistake based on levels of priority.


Where will the money be spent?
Physical copies, mostly. A small amount is going to assist with art and market penetration, as well.


Why are the stretch goals covered up in a hard to read way and not updated?
I don't understand what you mean. If you mean by the "locked" stamp, the answer is obvious. Also, I broke the $1,000 goal with only about 3 minutes to spare. If you mean something else, it's likely the fact that I made that particular graphic on my own and I'm **** with art.


What is the difference between the books;

Warsong: Player's Guide
Warsong: Fall of Eldorande Player's Guide

The names are confusing.
Same book. Sorry about the confusion.



These questions might seem aggressive, however when you are asked for money based on a promise from a stranger, can you not understand the concern?
There's always concern when it comes to spending any amount of money. I also didn't ask anyone for money on this thread.

In addition:
https://www.kickstarter.com/blog/accountability-on-kickstarter
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/feds-take-first-action-against-a-failed-kickstarter-with-112k-judgment/


You can reply that you're an amazingly wonderful guy, that the game is the next best thing, but we can't know that for sure, all we can see is what you show us of your product.
Which is why I opened this thread. That was literally the whole point of this thread.

Thanks for your questions!

[Final Hyena]

I'm aware. My product is heavily criticized. There is a difference between that and what you were doing.
I got snarky because the kickstarter advertising the product gave very few details about the mechanics. When a salesman has little of substance to say in his main pitch I assume that to be reflective of the product.


Middle-Path is just a term I used to describe an Accord. An Accord is basically a psychological "middle-path" between what your Constellation expects of you, and how you go about doing it. Accord is a lot more grounded in every day life, while your Constellation is more of a grand scheme destiny. For example, you can be under the Constellation of the Sword, which destines you to a life of conflict. The methods by which you take to your Constellation's path is your Accord, such as the Glory accord, which thrives in the thrill of victory and fame, or Vengeance Accord, who constantly moves against those who wrong him or his loved ones. Different paths (accords) for a single "truth". The constellation is the abstract and lofty destiny, while the accord is a grounded version, boiling it down to how your character goes about it.

One such example isthe one I give in the kickstarter for Olaeya. She is under the Constellation of the Arrow, but her accord is Warden. The Arrow puts a destiny of interposing herself between things she loves and those who would harm them, but the Warden specializes her into protecting the wild areas.
your answer on the FAQ suggests that they give you abilities, but that explanation suggests they are character goals.
FAQ for reference;

There is a level system. Classes are done in a different way. You will choose your constellation, which determines your main destiny. Then, you'll have an Accord which is a middle path. The Accord how you apply yourself to your destiny. Your levels will work with your Constellation and Accord to determine your abilities, powers, spells, hit points, magic points, etc.


Sure! One of my favorite Obsidian Circle spells..

Description: This wicked spell summons forth necromantic energy that spreads from the caster and suffuses the land around her. During the spell, the caster defiles a corpse of a humanoid sentient creature, and must remove the heart of a creature killed by necrotic damage. She must consume the heart whole. At the end of the ritual, the character becomes a conduit for necromatic energy that she summons from another plane, and takes 8d12 damage when she must pull that energy across the realm of Gafhuir. If she dies from this damage, she immediately becomes undead, and the spell fails, as all of the energy condenses into her own body. The necrotic energy floods and suffuses the land around her, killing all plant life within 48 hours. The land becomes unfit to grow new crops. Natural animal life withers and dies within a week's time, and only the most hearty creatures can survive here. Undead creatures gain advantage to all rolls while in effected lands. People who die in this area have a 50% chance of becoming undead themselves. Lands such as these are typically home to the Deathless.
Given that there is no spell level or anything to base this on it's hard to comments on it beyond, it seems like a re fluffed desecrate. Which isn't what I would consider unique. It also has no set aoe. The wording could also use touching up.


Attacks, spells, grappling, defensive stances, martial arts, dodging, disarming, counterspells.
How do they work? What is the purpose or advantage/disadvantage of each?


Wasn't important, really. Especially considering the shrinking number of similarities between the two. Plus, if I have enough time before my release date, I plan to use a system of my own that I've been working on. Not to mention, a person working on an entire project of this magnitude by himself can't exactly remember everything. Small mistake based on levels of priority.
Just over one week ago you said;

It is very similar to the OGL, with a lot of tweaks.
Is it very similar or not very similar?


Same book. Sorry about the confusion.
Why does one have an expected delivery of Jul, but the other is Dec?
Why are they rewarded at different tiers costing different amounts?


There's always concern when it comes to spending any amount of money. I also didn't ask anyone for money on this thread.
Your post was advertising a kickstarter project, which is.

[Skullz4Trophies]

Hey again, everyone!

I just wanted to add to this thread to say thanks to everyone who pitched in to make this game a reality. Our Quickstart is set to be on RPGNow.com very, very soon. Cover art, as well as splash is nearing completion and the final playtests are being done to fine-tune the system and get everything up to snuff.

Keep an eye out for it! And if you really want to keep up with what we're doing, check out our blog at http://www.highergroundsgamingblog.wordpress.com