Snakebite, a Cantrip [PEACH]

[DracoKnight]

Hello all, working on this (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Bk0OUKl8) cantrip for the Druid, Sorcerer, and Warlock. Just wanted to double-check balance.

[R.Shackleford]

Hello all, working on this (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Bk0OUKl8) cantrip for the Druid, Sorcerer, and Warlock. Just wanted to double-check balance.

You should have it be a spectral snake that extends from your hand and not just snake fangs.

Cantrips should be simpler. I would remove the ongoing poison and the poison for an hour.

Have it poison a creature for 1 round or until after they resolve their next attack roll or ability check.

Your cantrip is stronger than Hex and at-will.

[DracoKnight]

You should have it be a spectral snake that extends from your hand and not just snake fangs.

Cantrips should be simpler. I would remove the ongoing poison and the poison for an hour.

Have it poison a creature for 1 round or until after they resolve their next attack roll or ability check.

Your cantrip is stronger than Hex and at-will.

Ah. Right, fair points, all.

[R.Shackleford]

Also this is more powerful than Vicious Mockery but I find that VM to be poorly designed to begin with.

Although Acid and Poison (condition) resistance is a bit more common than Psychic resistance... Maybe make this work within 10'? 20'? Not sure if many DMs would like VM getting replaced (though, again, I hate VM).

[DracoKnight]

Also this is more powerful than Vicious Mockery but I find that VM to be poorly designed to begin with.

Although Acid and Poison (condition) resistance is a bit more common than Psychic resistance... Maybe make this work within 10'? 20'? Not sure if many DMs would like VM getting replaced (though, again, I hate VM).

Fixed it up a bit. And I think longer range makes up for being a more commonly resisted damage type.

[Goober4473]

I think the action use is a bit strange, and the use of an attack roll and a saving throw is a little complex for a cantrip, yet the poisoned condition is too powerful for only one or the other. I'm also not sure why it deals acid damage, as no snake does that.

I would make it just a save or just an attack roll, lower the damage, and lessen the poisoned effect to something more akin to vicious mockery. To keep it unique from yet balanced with the likes of frostbite, my suggestion would be make it an attack roll, range 60 ft., 1d6 poison damage, and disadvantage on their next weapon attack before the end of the target's next turn.

An attack roll I believe is going to be more commonly useful than a save, so I don't think an increased range is necessary.

[R.Shackleford]

I think the action use is a bit strange, and the use of an attack roll and a saving throw is a little complex for a cantrip, yet the poisoned condition is too powerful for only one or the other. I'm also not sure why it deals acid damage, as no snake does that.

I would make it just a save or just an attack roll, lower the damage, and lessen the poisoned effect to something more akin to vicious mockery. To keep it unique from yet balanced with the likes of frostbite, my suggestion would be make it an attack roll, range 60 ft., 1d6 poison damage, and disadvantage on their next weapon attack before the end of the target's next turn.


Vicious Mockery is a bad example of a cantrip as it isn't consistent with other cantrips. However frostbite is a pretty good example of a cantrip.

Personally I would make it an attack roll and...

Snakebite
1 Action
Component: S, M (Snake Skin, Snake Fang, or other piece of a snake)
Range: 60'

Pointing with two fingers, you let loose spectral snake in a bright green flash. This snake lunges at the target. Make a ranged spell attack roll. On a hit the target takes 1d8 Acid damage and has disadvantage on the next saving throw they attempt against poison until the start of your next turn.

At levels 5, 7, 11, and 17 the damage increases by 1d8.

Edit: A altered version of what I made will make it into my shaman eventually.

[Final Hyena]

I like it as is.
Although (components wise) snake venom might be expensive.
Also having checked a few poison/acid spells they are conjuration.

[fbelanger]

There is a first level spell Ray of sickness who do the same.

Poisoned is a superior effect compare to the vicious mockery cantrip.

The other poison cantrip have a range of 10.

So I would make the following change.

Range 10
Make a constitution saving throw or be poisoned until the end of your next turn.
Remove the damage.

[This be Richard]

For comparison: Frostbite has a range of 60 feet, inflicts disadvantage only on the next weapon attack roll, and uses Xd6 damage.

Honestly, inflicting the poisoned condition even for one round is probably outside the range of what we should expect from a cantrip, since it would go further than anything we've seen so far. Even if we double-barrier the effect by requiring a successful attack roll and a failed save, it's still probably a bigger effect than you should be able to swing at-will, and then you'd also have an additional roll slowing down gameplay on a spell that can be cast over and over.

So I'm going to add my voice to those saying that it should just give disadvantage to the next attack. But then the question is what are we doing that Frostbite doesn't do already?

Xd8 damage is bigger than Frostbite offers, so maybe we could make that work somehow... but even if we reduce the range on Snakebite down to 10 feet or Touch, I'm 100% certain that would justify having what is probably the biggest rider effect on a cantrip that uses the largest possible damage die for cantrips with riders. I guess poison spray is a save-gated 1d12, so maybe it's not out of the question.

So maybe consider a range of 10 feet, Xd8 damage dice, and disadvantage on the next weapon attack roll the creature makes before the end of its next turn?
Still not 100% on that, though.

[DracoKnight]

For comparison: Frostbite has a range of 60 feet, inflicts disadvantage only on the next weapon attack roll, and uses Xd6 damage.

Honestly, inflicting the poisoned condition even for one round is probably outside the range of what we should expect from a cantrip, since it would go further than anything we've seen so far. Even if we double-barrier the effect by requiring a successful attack roll and a failed save, it's still probably a bigger effect than you should be able to swing at-will, and then you'd also have an additional roll slowing down gameplay on a spell that can be cast over and over.

So I'm going to add my voice to those saying that it should just give disadvantage to the next attack. But then the question is what are we doing that Frostbite doesn't do already?

Xd8 damage is bigger than Frostbite offers, so maybe we could make that work somehow... but even if we reduce the range on Snakebite down to 10 feet or Touch, I'm 100% certain that would justify having what is probably the biggest rider effect on a cantrip that uses the largest possible damage die for cantrips with riders. I guess poison spray is a save-gated 1d12, so maybe it's not out of the question.

So maybe consider a range of 10 feet, Xd8 damage dice, and disadvantage on the next weapon attack roll the creature makes before the end of its next turn?
Still not 100% on that, though.

Having just read ray of sickness for the first time, I'm going to be somehow reworking this...because at 5th level, it's almost a better ray of sickness than Ray of sickness... The only reason it's not 100% better is because it eats through your actions for your turn.

EDIT: It's tweaked.

[R.Shackleford]

Having just read ray of sickness for the first time, I'm going to be somehow reworking this...because at 5th level, it's almost a better ray of sickness than Ray of sickness... The only reason it's not 100% better is because it eats through your actions for your turn.

EDIT: It's tweaked.

Looks like it's the same as the original... Did you update the link?

[DracoKnight]

Looks like it's the same as the original... Did you update the link?

I did. Instead of poisoning the target, it now imposes disadvantage on poison saves, like your proposal. :smallsmile:

[GandalfTheWhite]

I did. Instead of poisoning the target, it now imposes disadvantage on poison saves, like your proposal. :smallsmile:

I like this proposal - it encourages teamwork. "Hey, I'll give him disadvantage on his save, and you poison him!"

[Requiemforlust]

I like this proposal - it encourages teamwork. "Hey, I'll give him disadvantage on his save, and you poison him!"

It makes poison a lot more viable for your allies to spend their turn on. Which, btw, I don't think anything else does. Nice teamwork, R.Shackleford and DracoKnight :smallbiggrin:

[FMLest1998]

I am in agreement with Gandalf and Requiem.

[DracoKnight]

Excellent, glad this works.

*shakes your hand* Thank you, Shackleford. Thank you :smallbiggrin:

[R.Shackleford]

I did. Instead of poisoning the target, it now imposes disadvantage on poison saves, like your proposal. :smallsmile:

For some reason when I was using the link it was sending me to the old one. I was completely confused haha.


I like this proposal - it encourages teamwork. "Hey, I'll give him disadvantage on his save, and you poison him!"

Teamwork makes everything better :D


Excellent, glad this works.

*shakes your hand* Thank you, Shackleford. Thank you :smallbiggrin:

*shakes hand* thanks and to everyone else!

[Goober4473]

My suggestion is the following:


Pointing with two fingers, you let loose spectral set of snake fangs in a bright green flash. These fangs lunge at a creature within range. Make a ranged spell attack roll against that target. On a hit, the target takes 1d6 poison damage and suffers disadvantage on the next Constitution saving throw it makes against poison damage and/or the poisoned condition before the end of your next turn.

This removes the attack/save problem, the odd use of a bonus action, and the acid damage I still can't figure out. Also cleaner wording that more closely resembles published spells.

[GandalfTheWhite]

My suggestion is the following:



This removes the attack/save problem, the odd use of a bonus action, and the acid damage I still can't figure out. Also cleaner wording that more closely resembles published spells.

I mean no offense, but I don't think that this is what DracoKnight was going for. There's a thread on the 5e forum where he and R.Shackleford were talking about doing away with Poison damage, because it's pretty much pointless. And the use of bonus action allows the caster do something cool that allows teammate synergy. But if that thing didn't require the expense of all actions to get it, the cantrip would be OP.

[FMLest1998]

My suggestion is the following:



This removes the attack/save problem, the odd use of a bonus action, and the acid damage I still can't figure out. Also cleaner wording that more closely resembles published spells.

I'm pretty sure that the OP's version is fine, Goober. It's a decent option that isn't currently in the game, but allows team synergy. That kind of thing should be encouraged in actual play. :smallsmile:

[R.Shackleford]

Poison as a damage type just is way too over simplified for what Poisons and Venoms are.

Technically a snake's bite is venom and not poison and, from what I hear, works more like acid (or at least feels like it), when it enters you.

I feel, and I guess others including OP (though I don't wanna out words in his mouth), that Acid is the best representation of venom without adding a new damage type.

Necrotic could be another option but I feel like Necrotic is more magical than anything else and while you are casting a spell... You are conjuring up something "natural" (snake face).

Poison as a condition works well enough as it is quite broad and can be shown in different ways. Though even then I kinda feel like having one set condition for being poisoned is silly. But I'm a fan of the anti-fiddly sentiment so it works for me.

[DracoKnight]

Poison as a damage type just is way too over simplified for what Poisons and Venoms are.

Technically a snake's bite is venom and not poison and, from what I hear, works more like acid (or at least feels like it), when it enters you.

I feel, and I guess others including OP (though I don't wanna out words in his mouth), that Acid is the best representation of venom without adding a new damage type.

Necrotic could be another option but I feel like Necrotic is more magical than anything else and while you are casting a spell... You are conjuring up something "natural" (snake face).

Poison as a condition works well enough as it is quite broad and can be shown in different ways. Though even then I kinda feel like having one set condition for being poisoned is silly. But I'm a fan of the anti-fiddly sentiment so it works for me.

No worries, I and the other DMs I know are more or less in agreement with you on poison damage.

So, yeah, I'm using acid damage for now, I might make a venom damage type at a later date.

[DracoKnight]

Are there any further thoughts?

[ravencroft0]

Successful save also grants immunity to your snakebite for 24 hours? An anti-venom of sorts.

[R.Shackleford]

Successful save also grants immunity to your snakebite for 24 hours? An anti-venom of sorts.

No, this is a can't rip and not a spell, if it was a 1st or higher spell then I would be all for that but since it is meant to be balanced around at-will... I wouldn't do that.

If you were going to do something like that have it not be anti-venom to the acid damage but the disadvantage on saves against poison.

[DracoKnight]

No, this is a can't rip and not a spell, if it was a 1st or higher spell then I would be all for that but since it is meant to be balanced around at-will... I wouldn't do that.

If you were going to do something like that have it not be anti-venom to the acid damage but the disadvantage on saves against poison.

Yeah, I definitely don't want creatures being able to become immune to this - that would completely screw over a caster who chose this as their only damaging cantrip.

[R.Shackleford]

Yeah, I definitely don't want creatures being able to become immune to this - that would completely screw over a caster who chose this as their only damaging cantrip.

Yup, plus depending on the campaign, acid damage is already at a disadvantage.

[DracoKnight]

Yup, plus depending on the campaign, acid damage is already at a disadvantage.

Exactly. If the BBEG is resistant to it, then you don't want to nerf it any more.

[zeek0]

Poison as a damage type just is way too over simplified for what Poisons and Venoms are.

Technically a snake's bite is venom and not poison and, from what I hear, works more like acid (or at least feels like it), when it enters you.

I feel, and I guess others including OP (though I don't wanna out words in his mouth), that Acid is the best representation of venom without adding a new damage type.

Necrotic could be another option but I feel like Necrotic is more magical than anything else and while you are casting a spell... You are conjuring up something "natural" (snake face).

Poison as a condition works well enough as it is quite broad and can be shown in different ways. Though even then I kinda feel like having one set condition for being poisoned is silly. But I'm a fan of the anti-fiddly sentiment so it works for me.

Poison and venom are more similar than you imagine. Both are toxins; the only real difference is how it is introduced into the body.

Venom is a poison produced by an animal that is often meant to be injected via a bite or sting.

Poison is a substance able to do harm to the body when it is absorbed or introduced (this would include venom).

It doesn't matter how it feels. Acids dissolve your body chemically by having a much lower pH than your tissue (and we might include bases in this category, such as lye). Poisons destroy your body in a much more biological fashion, frequently being absorbed into cells because they are mistaken for other compounds.

Poisons are also more... targeted. They stop your heart, paralyze a limb, cloud the brain.

Mechanically, a character with high Con saves should do well against poison damage, and this might be countered through medicine or antivenom. Acid is a different matter- your flesh can't avoid being dissolved.

Just my $0.02. I think that a fantasy magical snake could have acid fangs, sure. But the distinction should stay present.

[DracoKnight]

Just my $0.02. I think that a fantasy magical snake could have acid fangs, sure. But the distinction should stay present.

Fair enough ^_^

[R.Shackleford]

Just my $0.02. I think that a fantasy magical snake could have acid fangs, sure. But the distinction should stay present.

Not really.

In a game that emulates and doesn't simulate and is trying to be less fiddly... Having a poison type damage is fiddly when Acid can already emulate (venom) quite well.

Removing poison type as a damage makes the game more smooth and then you don't have the poison damage versus poison condition. Why would poison damage not ever poison you (Poison spray) or make you weak to poison?

Depending on the poison or venom the damage type could be acid, fire, piercing, or slashing depending on how it is described. Hell, people may not have a spleen in D&D.

In D&D there is no "molecular level" and you have to take the setting into account when describing xyz. If we start simulating all damage types we are going to have a mess on our hands.

But of the damage types that 5e has, Acid would be the best emulation of said venom. I'm not a fan of poison dam age as it doesn't emulate or simulate anything (it is very broad for something that tends to have specific effects).

[zeek0]

Alright. Let's take the 21st century knowledge out of it. Do we still have incentive to make a distinction between acid and poison damage?

Consider the Following:
Poison affects living systems.
Acid eats through any but the hardest of materials, and is ineffective against acid-based creatures.

Now for examples where the distinction is important:

Acid-injected, adamantium-shelled Armadillo
>Poison is effective, acid is not

Possessed Marionette
>Acid is effective, poison is not.

This is corroborated by the MM - the Flying Sword is immune to poison, but not to acid. A black dragon has immunity to acid, but not poison.

I think that they seem similar because of a common color scheme and they are vaguely scientific. But I don't think that collapsing them into one type is a tenable idea.

[khadgar567]

we can add something like at by using 1st level slot you can choose between dealing poison or acid dame to a creature
this will give option to do either damage while not changing the spell to much

[R.Shackleford]

Alright. Let's take the 21st century knowledge out of it. Do we still have incentive to make a distinction between acid and poison damage?

Consider the Following:
Poison affects living systems.
Acid eats through any but the hardest of materials, and is ineffective against acid-based creatures.

Now for examples where the distinction is important:

Acid-injected, adamantium-shelled Armadillo
>Poison is effective, acid is not

Possessed Marionette
>Acid is effective, poison is not.

This is corroborated by the MM - the Flying Sword is immune to poison, but not to acid. A black dragon has immunity to acid, but not poison.

I think that they seem similar because of a common color scheme and they are vaguely scientific. But I don't think that collapsing them into one type is a tenable idea.


Poison damage doesn't exist in my games and I believe OP has stated that they don't like it either.

So it falls to Acid.

Poison is a condition not a damage type.


we can add something like at by using 1st level slot you can choose between dealing poison or acid dame to a creature
this will give option to do either damage while not changing the spell to much

No cantrip scales this way, just make a first level spell that is burning hands to fire bolt type symmetry with snakebite.

[khadgar567]

Poison damage doesn't exist in my games and I believe OP has stated that they don't like it either.

So it falls to Acid.

Poison is a condition not a damage type.



No cantrip scales this way, just make a first level spell that is burning hands to fire bolt type symmetry with snakebite.
Just giving idea

[zeek0]

Poison damage doesn't exist in my games and I believe OP has stated that they don't like it either.

That's fine, it's your call as DM. It just makes it confusing if I want to put this in my homebrew files, and I have to consider that when judging it mechanically.

I only have one more question: how do you adjudicate when a shadow demon is affected by purple worm poison? Is the demon immune or do they resist?