Combat By The Second

[Deepbluediver]

In D&D 3.5 (and 4th and 5e as well AFAIK) combat is divide up into specific types of actions- Standard, Movement, Full-Round, Free, and Swift being the ones I'm familiar with. A round is generally 6 seconds, and you can estimate approximately how much time a given action represents, although I've seen some debate on that matter.

But what if combat was instead divided into something like "tics" (or bits if you prefer). A tic would normally represent about 1 second, and actions took a certain number of tics. But of course because it's more abstract, a tic can easily represent more or less time, and you can vary the number of tics people have. I feel like this adds flexibility, in that rather than change what type of action something is or grant you additional specific actions, they just add tics or perhaps change how many tics an action takes.

Just as an example, if a standard round is 5 tics (because I like nice round numbers) the spell "Haste" instead gives you 7 tics. Instead of just moving faster and getting an extra attack, you can use those tics any way you want. The spell "Slow" reduces you to 3 tics per round. Etc etc etc.
You can do the same with feats, class features, magic items, even monster-abilities if you want.


Are there any games out there that use a system like this? If so, what are your experiences with them? Do they have major drawbacks I haven't considered?

[JNAProductions]

GURPS, I think, does this.

[Deepbluediver]

GURPS, I think, does this.
I've never played GURPS- do you have any experience with it? I've heard it's pretty rules-heavy as far as systems go.

[Kol Korran]

If I'm not mistaken, Hack Master does something similar. Each weapon, spells, and action costs seconds, and you go up by the seconds and when you can, you act. A bit of a hassle to run (From what I've heard, I've never played it), but it does add some nice stuff. A dagger wielding stabber can stab many more times than a great sword wielder, since the dagger requires less seconds, and so on...

[Deepbluediver]

If I'm not mistaken, Hack Master does something similar. Each weapon, spells, and action costs seconds, and you go up by the seconds and when you can, you act. A bit of a hassle to run (From what I've heard, I've never played it), but it does add some nice stuff. A dagger wielding stabber can stab many more times than a great sword wielder, since the dagger requires less seconds, and so on...
I had not considered changing things based on weapon-type. My preference for D&D would be to use other methods to balance different types of weapons, but that's certainly something I'll keep in mind.

Also D&D is already fairly complex- if I wanted to make a low/no-magic setting though where pretty much everything was weapon-based, I'd look for a way to roll this in.

[Mr Beer]

GURPS, I think, does this.

GURPS goes second by second for combat but every round takes one second so it's not really what OP is referring to.

Although GURPS is excellent for detailed combat.

[Vitruviansquid]

I tried writing a system like this, but it turned out to not work well with melee weapons.

Say you have an unarmed Chump with 5 tics and a Maniac with an axe with 5 tics is trying to chase him down and kill him. Say that the maniac is right next to the chump when he pulls out his axe and starts the encounter.

If the Chump moves first, he can kite the Maniac around forever by simply moving his 5 tics worth of movement every turn, as the Maniac would have to use 5 tics of movement to reach his target and then have no tics left to swing his axe. Now you could add rules to penalize moving away from melee, but then you don't solve the problem of ranged weapon users (pretend maniac has a crossbow) being infinitely kited, and giving actions outside of tics would break the simulation.

In the end, I concluded it actually feels MORE real to do it DnD's way of obscuring what's happening at each specific moment.

[goto124]

I suspect it would work better when there're more combatants in the area, terrain causing effects, more types of skills/spells to work with, etc.

[slachance6]

I've never played GURPS- do you have any experience with it? I've heard it's pretty rules-heavy as far as systems go.

It's definitely one of the crunchier systems out there, but a lot of people overlook the fact that it's more of a toolbox than a complete system; you're not supposed to use all the rules. In my opinion, it's an excellent system if you want an immersive simulationist experience.

[hifidelity2]

It's definitely one of the crunchier systems out there, but a lot of people overlook the fact that it's more of a toolbox than a complete system; you're not supposed to use all the rules. In my opinion, it's an excellent system if you want an immersive simulationist experience.

GURPS is second by second combat.

Once had one of the party jumped at one end of a pier by some thieves - by the time the party had run the length of the pier the whole fight was over

As slachance6 says the biggest mistakle I see is people thinking you have to use all of the rules.
The group I am in play GURPS a lot in various settinggs and use differnt subsets of the rules for them - so for wxample in our swashbuckler adventure we go quire rules light but in a classic fantasy setting we are more detailed. We have also ovre the years indroduced more of the rules as the players and DMs get more used to the system

[Jay R]

In Hero Systems, a turn is twelve seconds, divided into 12 one-second segments. Your speed determined when you act and how many actions you get. (A character with Speed 4 acts on segments 3, 6, 9, and 12. With Speed 5, she acts on segments 2, 5, 7, 10, and 12.)

[kyoryu]

Phoenix Command's melee supplement went to 1/10 of a second, IIRC.

[CharonsHelper]

I think that both Riddle of Steel and some editions of Exalted went by the second. I believe that Exalted actually called them tics.

A lot of it depends how abstract you want your combat system.

Frankly, while cool in theory, it seems like it adds too much complexity for what it's worth.

[Segev]

Exalted 2E does exactly what the OP is describing. Combat moves in ticks, and actions have a Speed which is how many ticks you have to wait after taking them before you can act again. It's... complex to work with. Leaving aside the other problems with Exalted 2E combat, it is an interesting approach, but it can be harder to keep track of.

[LibraryOgre]

If I'm not mistaken, Hack Master does something similar. Each weapon, spells, and action costs seconds, and you go up by the seconds and when you can, you act. A bit of a hassle to run (From what I've heard, I've never played it), but it does add some nice stuff. A dagger wielding stabber can stab many more times than a great sword wielder, since the dagger requires less seconds, and so on...

Hackmaster does this, and, in practice, it gets pretty easy, once people get used to the idea that they don't have an "action"... if they want, they can move and react every second, and that they're going to act again in X seconds.

It also adds another dimension to the fight, and helps make fighters effective. Because fighters can improve weapons easier than other classes, and improve their speed as they level, fighters remain useful and effective throughout. Mages suffer from spellcasting fatigue, meaning they have an investment in casting faster spells (which have less fatigue, and are generally less damaging or effective).


Say you have an unarmed Chump with 5 tics and a Maniac with an axe with 5 tics is trying to chase him down and kill him. Say that the maniac is right next to the chump when he pulls out his axe and starts the encounter.

If the Chump moves first, he can kite the Maniac around forever by simply moving his 5 tics worth of movement every turn, as the Maniac would have to use 5 tics of movement to reach his target and then have no tics left to swing his axe. Now you could add rules to penalize moving away from melee, but then you don't solve the problem of ranged weapon users (pretend maniac has a crossbow) being infinitely kited, and giving actions outside of tics would break the simulation.

So, here's how that works in Hackmaster. We're going to ignore modifiers, here, for simplicities sake.

Maniac is planning a surprise attack on Chump. He rolls his initiative die (which is probably around a d4, since he's planning the attack), while Chump, who was unaware, rolls a d12. It is possible that Chump will act before Maniac, and get to run away without a problem. We'll assume that Chump and Maniac each roll their average... 3 and 7, respectively.

Chump draws his weapon, which takes a second; it is now count 4. He is able to make his first attack immediately, on count 5. We'll have him hit (Chump, being unaware of the attack, only rolls a d10p for defense). His axe has a speed of 10, so Maniac will get to attack again on 15. Chump, meanwhile, gets to act on 7. He starts to withdraw, but Maniac is able to follow along, unless Chump wants to run like mad, and open himself to an attack. While withdrawing, Chump draws a weapon, because otherwise, Maniac gets to attack at half speed (i.e. after 5 seconds, on count 10). Chump can immediately attack with that weapon, if he likes, but will then have to wait that weapon's speed before he attacks again.

If Chump wants to get away, he's going to have to find some way to outpace Maniac, because otherwise, Maniac can stay close to him and keep attacking. Chump might use the Give Ground maneuver or other things, but he's likely locked up with Maniac until he can figure out a way to do it... or eat a possible hit with the axe and just RUN.

EDIT: Hackmaster Basic is available for free (http://www.kenzerco.com/free_files/hackmaster_basic_free_.pdf)

[Deepbluediver]

Let me say "thanks for all the replies"- I'm learning about lots of other systems I'll need to look up.

Regarding other systems, I hadn't really envisioned making D&D combat more complicated- from what I've been hearing described, I think what I was picturing was some sort of a hybrid system. Rounds would still resolve as they would in standard D&D, in order of initiative, but everyone has ticks (tics?) that are a resource to use on their turn.

For example, if the base amount is 5 ticks, then I'd make a Standard Attack (1 attack at full BAB) 3 ticks, and a Standard Move 2 ticks. So you could make a Standard Move, then follow it with a Standard Attack- or vice versa. Or you could make a Full Attack (5 ticks). Or you could cast a Standard Spell (3 ticks) and then make a Standard move (2 ticks).

If, supposing being Hasted gave you 7 ticks, you could make a Standard Move (2 ticks) and then make a Full Attack (5 ticks). Or you could cast 1 Standard Spell (3 ticks) then cast ANOTHER Standard spell (3 ticks) and end your turn with 1 tick left over. And I'd probably make Swift Actions 1 tick, so if you've got any of those you can use them to eat up leftover ticks.

If you're slowed (3 ticks), then you could make a Standard Attack, or make a Standard Move, but not both. And you can't use anything that takes 5 ticks.

This way you could have things like a class ability that makes Full Attacks only cost 3 ticks for 5 rounds, usable once per day or something like that. Or a magic Ring that gives you 6 ticks per round instead of 5.

Is that clearer?



I tried writing a system like this, but it turned out to not work well with melee weapons.
*snip*
Even with Mark Hall's explanation I'm still a little confused by this- kitting is a thing that can happen in D&D normally AFAIK just by having a faster movement speed. The way I pictured it you'd never move tick-by-tick anyway, but why does that make it more problematic?

[LibraryOgre]

If you're wanting to include ticks and such inside a round system, look for Third Eye Game's Apocalypse Prevention, Inc., which does just that (I am not familiar with their current offerings of Amp: Year One or The Ninja Crusade to say if they do, as well)

[Deepbluediver]

If you're wanting to include ticks and such inside a round system, look for Third Eye Game's Apocalypse Prevention, Inc., which does just that (I am not familiar with their current offerings of Amp: Year One or The Ninja Crusade to say if they do, as well)
I found a short review of how the combat-rounds work, it does sound similar to what I'm thinking of. I like setting that don't take themselves to seriously.

[Vitruviansquid]

Even with Mark Hall's explanation I'm still a little confused by this- kitting is a thing that can happen in D&D normally AFAIK just by having a faster movement speed. The way I pictured it you'd never move tick-by-tick anyway, but why does that make it more problematic?

DnD did not have a kiting problem because the maximum number of spaces you could move was the same regardless of whether you attacked, since you take a move action to move and a standard action to attack. In DnD, the Chump would move the maximum number of spaces away from the Maniac, who would then move up and hit the Chump before the Chump got to move again.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Burning Wheel sort of does this in that actions are measured in heartbeats. Most actions you want to be taking in a fight are one heartbeat, though, because missing an action is extremely painful and is likely to get you skewered while you're doing something like nocking an arrow.

[Fri]

Exalted 2e also uses tick system, but I dont' remember the detail (because I really dislike exalted 2e's mechanic. Not specifically the tick or combat system, mind you, I remember it was nice enough, just the whole crunch package).

[Benthesquid]

DnD did not have a kiting problem because the maximum number of spaces you could move was the same regardless of whether you attacked, since you take a move action to move and a standard action to attack. In DnD, the Chump would move the maximum number of spaces away from the Maniac, who would then move up and hit the Chump before the Chump got to move again.

Pathfinder, and I'm pretty sure 3.5, allowed you to take a second move action instead of your standard action- so Chump moves twice (generally sixty feet) and Maniac can only move once if he wants to attack.

This is offset because, among other things, Maniac might get an Attack of Opportunity as Chump cheeses it, and may be able to Charge (basically take two moves and a single attack action, with some bonuses and penalties) depending on where Chump stops relative to him.

[Deepbluediver]

DnD did not have a kiting problem because the maximum number of spaces you could move was the same regardless of whether you attacked, since you take a move action to move and a standard action to attack. In DnD, the Chump would move the maximum number of spaces away from the Maniac, who would then move up and hit the Chump before the Chump got to move again.
I apologize if there is some confusion because I never full fleshed out what I was envisioning- I was trying to NOT make this a "homebrew" thread (yet, anyways).
But I still don't get it- in D&D (3.5 at least) you could spend your entire round running and move 4 times your regular movement speed; that would be the equivalent of a "Full Move Action". Otherwise, assuming both characters have the same number of tics and move at the same speed and attacks cost the same number of tics, neither one has an inherent advantage over the other.

It doesn't really matter who goes first unless you're readying an action, what matters is what the person who is trying to get away does. If they spend their entire turn moving, then (again assuming identical speeds) the other player will have to spend HIS entire turn moving, and will never get a chance to attack. Even with a slightly slower speed, depending on exactly how the system is set up they might be able to run around in circles long enough for the GM to start imposing fatigue checks.
I never intended for attacks with different weapon-types to cost lesser or greater amount of ticks at the base level.

To conclude, I don't see being able to kite someone as an inherent flaw. If you can make it work, then it's good tactics. If the party starts to resolve every combat encounter like this, then the GM needs to take a good look at how he's designing combat.


Burning Wheel sort of does this in that actions are measured in heartbeats. Most actions you want to be taking in a fight are one heartbeat, though, because missing an action is extremely painful and is likely to get you skewered while you're doing something like nocking an arrow.
I never intended to balance every action around costing the same amount of ticks- that seems very difficult.
On the contrary- having different actions "cost" different number of tics adds an calculative element to combat for players to maximize the effectiveness of their turn, rather than just stacking as many tics as they can at the expense of everything else.


Exalted 2e also uses tick system, but I dont' remember the detail (because I really dislike exalted 2e's mechanic. Not specifically the tick or combat system, mind you, I remember it was nice enough, just the whole crunch package).
I didn't want to really change the feel and flow of D&D style combat- what this would really affect is buffing and debuffing. Rather than a spell (like Celerity) or an ability (like from the Marshal class) giving you specific actions that can only be used on things that fit that type of action, by giving or removing ticks it's up to the player to decide how they want to expend their resources that turn. I'm trying to add flexibility without actually changing that much in terms of overall balance.