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Hawkflight
2016-07-10, 02:03 AM
Divine Trickster

Perhaps you were born under divine circumstances. Perhaps you or your family did something to earn the gods' favor. Or maybe you're just so good at sweet-talking others that you managed to ingratiate yourself to the gods themselves. Either way, you've become a conduit for your god's divine power, and use it to enhance your skills of stealth and agility.

Spellcasting:

When you reach 3rd level, you gain the ability to cast spells. See chapter 10 for the general rules of spellcasting and chapter 11 for the cleric spell list.

Cantrips: You learn three cantrips of your choice from the cleric spell list. You learn another cleric cantrip of your choice at 10th level.

Spell Slots: The Divine Trickster Spellcasting table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest. For example, if you know the 1st-level spell charm person and have a 1st-level and a 2nd-level spell slot available, you can cast charm person using either slot.

Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher: Unlike an Arcane Trickster or an Eldritch Knight, you do not learn new spells as you level up, with the exception of your cantrips at 3rd and 10th level. However, you do gain the ability to cast the spells granted from your chosen domain (see below).

Spellcasting Ability: Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your cleric spells, since the power of your spells comes from your connection to your deity. You use your Wisdom whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Wisdom modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a cleric spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your wisdom modifier
Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your wisdom modifier

Spellcasting Focus: You can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus.



Divine Trickster Spell Table


Rogue Level
Cantrips Known
1st
2nd
3rd
4th


3rd
3
2
—
—
—


4th
3
3
—
—
—


5th
3
3
—
—
—


6th
3
3
—
—
—


7th
3
4
2
—
—


8th
3
4
2
—
—


9th
3
4
2
—
—


10th
4
4
3
—
—


11th
4
4
3
—
—


12th
4
4
3
—
—


13th
4
4
3
2
—


14th
4
4
3
2
—


15th
4
4
3
2
—


16th
4
4
3
3
—


17th
4
4
3
3
—


18th
4
4
3
3
—


19th
4
4
3
3
1


20th
4
4
3
3
1


Credit to Ziegander for the header formatting and to UristMcRandom for the table itself.

Divine Domain:

Choose one domain related to your deity: Arcana, Death, Knowledge, Life, Light, Nature, Tempest, Trickery, or War. Each domain is detailed at the end of the cleric's class description (Player's Handbook, p. 59), and each one provides examples of gods associated with it. Your choice grants you access to domain spells and other features when you choose it at 3rd level. It also grants you additional ways to use Channel Divinity.

Domain Spells: Each domain has a list of spells - its domain spells. Unlike a Cleric, you learn these spells at a drastically slower rate. You gain the domain's 1st-level spells at 3rd level, its 2nd-level spells at 7th level, its 3rd-level spells at 13th level, and its 4th-level spells at 19th level. You do not gain the domain's 5th-level spells.

Once you gain a domain spell, you always have it prepared, and it doesn’t count against the number of spells you can prepare each day. If you have a domain spell that doesn’t appear on the cleric spell list, the spell is nonetheless a cleric spell for you.

Channel Divinity:

At 3rd level, you gain the ability to channel divine energy directly from your deity, using that energy to fuel magical effects. You start with two such effects: Turn Undead (Player's Handbook, p. 59) and an effect determined by your domain. Some domains grant you additional effects as you advance in levels, as noted in the domain description. When you use your Channel Divinity ability, you choose which effect to create. You must then finish a short or long rest to use your Channel Divinity again.

Some Channel Divinity effects require saving throws. When you use such an effect from this class, the DC equals your cleric spell save DC.

Divine Guardian:

At 9th level, you can use your Channel Divinity to gain a certain level of divine protection against magical effects that would otherwise control or compel you. You can, as a bonus action, end one effect on yourself that is causing you to be charmed, compelled, or frightened.

Blinding Radiance:

Starting at 13th level, you've learned to fully take advantage of your divine powers. Whenever you use your action to cast a cleric spell or use your Channel Divinity feature, you gain advantage on your next attack before the end of your turn.

The Divine Heist:

At 17th level, you gain the ability to steal the powers of other divine spellcasters. Immediately after a creature casts a divine spell that targets you or includes you in its area of effect, you can use your reaction to force the creature to make a saving throw with its spellcasting ability modifier. The DC equals your spell save DC. On a failed save, you negate the spell’s effect against you, and you steal the knowledge of the spell if it is at least 1st level and of a level you can cast (it doesn’t need to be a cleric spell). For the next 8 hours, you know the spell and can cast it using your spell slots. The creature can’t cast that spell until the 8 hours have passed.

Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a long rest.

----

Divine Trickster

Perhaps you were born under divine circumstances. Perhaps you or your family did something to earn the gods' favor. Or maybe you're just so good at sweet-talking others that you managed to ingratiate yourself to the gods themselves. Either way, you've become a conduit for your god's divine power, and use it to enhance your skills of stealth and agility.

Divine Domain:

Choose one domain related to your deity: Arcana, Death, Knowledge, Life, Light, Nature, Tempest, Trickery, or War. Each domain is detailed below, and each one provides examples of gods associated with it. Your choice grants you access to certain abilities, including domain spells and the Channel Divinity feature.

Domain Spells: Each domain has a set of associated cantrips. When you choose a domain, you automatically learn the domain's associated cantrips, and can cast them at will. Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for them.

Channel Divinity: Your domain allows you to channel divine energy directly from your deity, using that energy to fuel magical effects. Each Channel Divinity option provided by your domain explains how to use it. When you use your Channel Divinity ability, you choose which effect to create. You must then finish a short or long rest to use your Channel Divinity again. Some Channel Divinity effects require saving throws. When you use such an effect from this class, the DC equals your cleric spell save DC.

Divine Guardian:

At 9th level, you can use your Channel Divinity to gain a certain level of divine protection against magical effects that would otherwise control or compel you. You can, as a bonus action, end one effect on yourself that is causing you to be charmed, compelled, or frightened.

Blinding Radiance:

Starting at 13th level, you've learned to fully take advantage of your divine powers. Whenever you use your action to cast a cleric spell or use your Channel Divinity feature, you gain advantage on your next attack before the end of your turn.

The Divine Heist:

At 17th level, you gain the ability to steal the powers of other divine spellcasters. Immediately after a creature casts a divine spell that targets you or includes you in its area of effect, you can use your reaction to force the creature to make a saving throw with its spellcasting ability modifier. The DC for this is 8 + your proficiency bonus + your wisdom modifier. On a failed save, you negate the spell’s effect against you, and you steal the knowledge of the spell (it doesn’t need to be a cleric spell). Until you finish a long rest, you know the spell and can expend a use of your Channel Divinity to cast it with a save DC of 8 + your proficiency bonus + your wisdom modifier and an attack modifier (if appropriate) of your proficiency bonus + your wisdom modifier. The creature can’t cast that spell until the 8 hours have passed.

Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a long rest.

----

Knowledge Domain:

[Flavor text goes here.]

Tenets of Knowledge: To keep their deity's favor, a Trickster pledged to the Knowledge Domain must follow certain tenets. Chief among these is the preservation of knowledge - while one does not always have the time to seek out and learn new things, a Trickster can never willingly participate in the destruction of knowledge, such as burning books or dismantling libraries.

Domain Spells: You learn the Guidance and True Strike cantrips.

Blessings of Knowledge: When you choose this domain at 3rd level, you learn two languages of your choice. You also become proficient in your choice of any two knowledge-based skills. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of those skills.

Channel Divinity: Knowledge of the Ages: When you choose this domain at 3rd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to tap into a divine well of knowledge. As an action, you choose one skill or tool. For 10 minutes, you gain proficiency with the chosen skill or tool.
Divine Trickster

Perhaps you were born under divine circumstances. Perhaps you or your family did something to earn the gods' favor. Or maybe you're just so good at sweet-talking others that you managed to ingratiate yourself to the gods themselves. Either way, you've become a conduit for your god's divine power, and use it to enhance your skills of stealth and agility.

Spellcasting:

When you reach 3rd level, you gain the ability to cast spells. See chapter 10 for the general rules of spellcasting and chapter 11 for the cleric spell list.

Cantrips: You learn three cantrips of your choice from the cleric spell list. You learn another cleric cantrip of your choice at 10th level.

Spell Slots: The Divine Trickster Spellcasting table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell's level or higher. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a long rest. For example, if you know the 1st-level spell charm person and have a 1st-level and a 2nd-level spell slot available, you can cast charm person using either slot.

Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher: You know three 1st-level cleric spells of your choice, two of which you must choose from your domain spell list. The Spells Known column of the Divine Trickster Spellcasting table shows when you learn more cleric spells of 1st level or higher. Each of these spells must be chosen from your domain's spell list, and must be of a level for which you have spell slots. The spells you learn at 4th, 10th, 11th, 16th, and 20th level may be selected from the cleric spell list.

Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the cleric spells you know with another spell of your choice from the cleric list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

Spellcasting Ability: Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your cleric spells, since the power of your spells comes from your connection to your deity. You use your Wisdom whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Wisdom modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a cleric spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your wisdom modifier
Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your wisdom modifier

Spellcasting Focus: You can use a holy symbol as a spellcasting focus.



Divine Trickster Spell Table


Rogue Level
Cantrips Known
Spells Known
1st
2nd
3rd
4th


3rd
3
3
2
—
—
—


4th
3
4
3
—
—
—


5th
3
4
3
—
—
—


6th
3
4
3
—
—
—


7th
3
5
4
2
—
—


8th
3
6
4
2
—
—


9th
3
6
4
2
—
—


10th
4
7
4
3
—
—


11th
4
8
4
3
—
—


12th
4
8
4
3
—
—


13th
4
9
4
3
2
—


14th
4
10
4
3
2
—


15th
4
10
4
3
2
—


16th
4
11
4
3
3
—


17th
4
11
4
3
3
—


18th
4
11
4
3
3
—


19th
4
12
4
3
3
1


20th
4
13
4
3
3
1


Credit to Ziegander for the header formatting and to UristMcRandom for the table itself.

Divine Domain:

Choose one domain related to your deity: Arcana, Death, Knowledge, Life, Light, Nature, Tempest, Trickery, or War. Each domain is detailed at the end of the cleric's class description (Player's Handbook, p. 59), and each one provides examples of gods associated with it. Your choice grants you access to domain spells and other features when you choose it at 3rd level. It also grants you additional ways to use Channel Divinity.

Channel Divinity:

At 3rd level, you gain the ability to channel divine energy directly from your deity, using that energy to fuel magical effects. You gain the Cleric's Turn Undead ability (Player's Handbook, p. 59), as well as some of the effects granted by your chosen domain. When you use your Channel Divinity ability, you choose which effect to create. You must then finish a short or long rest to use your Channel Divinity again.

You gain the domain's abilities at a slower rate than a pure cleric. At 3rd level, you may use the domain's 1st and 2nd level abilities. At 9th level, you may use the domain's 6th level ability. You do not gain the domain's 8th level abilities and beyond.

Some Channel Divinity effects require saving throws. When you use such an effect from this class, the DC equals your cleric spell save DC.

Divine Guardian:

At 9th level, you can use your Channel Divinity to gain a certain level of divine protection against magical effects that would otherwise control or compel you. You can, as a bonus action, end one effect on yourself that is causing you to be charmed, compelled, or frightened.

Blinding Radiance:

Starting at 13th level, you've learned to fully take advantage of your divine powers. Whenever you use your action to cast a cleric spell or use your Channel Divinity feature, you gain advantage on your next attack before the end of your turn.

The Divine Heist:

At 17th level, you gain the ability to steal the powers of other divine spellcasters. Immediately after a creature casts a divine spell that targets you or includes you in its area of effect, you can use your reaction to force the creature to make a saving throw with its spellcasting ability modifier. The DC equals your spell save DC. On a failed save, you negate the spell’s effect against you, and you steal the knowledge of the spell if it is at least 1st level and of a level you can cast (it doesn’t need to be a cleric spell). For the next 8 hours, you know the spell and can cast it using your spell slots. The creature can’t cast that spell until the 8 hours have passed.

Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a long rest.

UristMcRandom
2016-07-10, 10:45 PM
Not qualified to critique, am qualified to make tables.





Spell Slots per Spell Level


Rogue Level
Cantrips Known
Spells Known
1st
2nd
3rd
4th


3rd
3
1
2
—
—
—


4th
3
2
3
—
—
—


5th
3
2
3
—
—
—


6th
3
2
3
—
—
—


7th
3
3
4
2
—
—


8th
3
3
4
2
—
—


9th
3
3
4
2
—
—


10th
4
3
4
3
—
—


11th
4
4
4
3
—
—


12th
4
4
4
3
—
—


13th
4
5
4
3
2
—


14th
4
5
4
3
2
—


15th
4
5
4
3
2
—


16th
4
5
4
3
3
—


17th
4
5
4
3
3
—


18th
4
5
4
3
3
—


19th
4
6
4
3
3
1


20th
4
6
4
3
3
1



Credit to Ziegander for the header formatting.

Hawkflight
2016-07-10, 11:50 PM
Not qualified to critique, am qualified to make tables.





Spell Slots per Spell Level


Rogue Level
Cantrips Known
Spells Known
1st
2nd
3rd
4th


3rd
3
1
2
—
—
—


4th
3
2
3
—
—
—


5th
3
2
3
—
—
—


6th
3
2
3
—
—
—


7th
3
3
4
2
—
—


8th
3
3
4
2
—
—


9th
3
3
4
2
—
—


10th
4
3
4
3
—
—


11th
4
4
4
3
—
—


12th
4
4
4
3
—
—


13th
4
5
4
3
2
—


14th
4
5
4
3
2
—


15th
4
5
4
3
2
—


16th
4
5
4
3
3
—


17th
4
5
4
3
3
—


18th
4
5
4
3
3
—


19th
4
6
4
3
3
1


20th
4
6
4
3
3
1



Credit to Ziegander for the header formatting.

Thank you!

Flashy
2016-07-11, 01:05 AM
I quite like the archetype on the whole, but I have a few questions about how some of the mechanics work.



Channel Divinity:

At 3rd level, you gain the ability to channel divine energy directly from your deity, using that energy to fuel magical effects. You do not gain the Cleric's Turn Undead ability, but you do gain all of the effects granted by your domain. When you use your Channel Divinity ability, you choose which effect to create. You must then finish a short or long rest to use your Channel Divinity again.

How does this handle the domains that get additional channel divinity options at 6th level? It says you gain all the effects granted by your domain, does that include early entry on Read Thoughts and Cloak of Shadows? Are Knowledge and Trickery domain Divine Tricksters getting those additional channel divinities when the other domains get only one?



Spell Sniper:

Beginning at 9th level, you may add your sneak attack dice to any spell targeting an opponent if you have advantage. This applies to any spell which requires an attack roll or a saving throw. Only spells that deal damage may have sneak attack applied.

How does this work with spells which require saving throws? It's impossible to have advantage on your opponent making a saving throw, so I assume it's meant to apply when the opponent has disadvantage on the saving throw? Since it's pretty hard to force opponents to make saving throws with disadvantage this seems to apply pretty much exclusively to Inflict Wounds, Guiding Bolt, and Spiritual Weapon. Is that intentional? Since the only offensive Cleric cantrip is the saving throw based Sacred Flame it seems like this isn't going to see a lot of actual use.

Revlid
2016-07-11, 06:07 AM
I appreciate what you were going for with the name, but it seems really weird to have a subclass called Divine Trickster that isn't forced to use the Trickery Domain.

Hawkflight
2016-07-11, 08:23 PM
First off, I've replaced two of the features with new ones, making it closer to the original Divine Trickster from 3.5e. PEACH.


How does this handle the domains that get additional channel divinity options at 6th level? It says you gain all the effects granted by your domain, does that include early entry on Read Thoughts and Cloak of Shadows? Are Knowledge and Trickery domain Divine Tricksters getting those additional channel divinities when the other domains get only one?

Yes. I've also reimplemented the Turn Undead feature.


How does this work with spells which require saving throws? It's impossible to have advantage on your opponent making a saving throw, so I assume it's meant to apply when the opponent has disadvantage on the saving throw? Since it's pretty hard to force opponents to make saving throws with disadvantage this seems to apply pretty much exclusively to Inflict Wounds, Guiding Bolt, and Spiritual Weapon. Is that intentional? Since the only offensive Cleric cantrip is the saving throw based Sacred Flame it seems like this isn't going to see a lot of actual use.

I've replaced that feature with a new one.


I appreciate what you were going for with the name, but it seems really weird to have a subclass called Divine Trickster that isn't forced to use the Trickery Domain.

:smalltongue:

JNAProductions
2016-07-11, 08:28 PM
Domain Spells come at the wrong levels.

Surprise For the Dead is useless-you can already sneak attack undead.

Other than that, looks good.

Hawkflight
2016-07-11, 09:17 PM
Domain Spells come at the wrong levels.

Surprise For the Dead is useless-you can already sneak attack undead.

Other than that, looks good.

Oh, got it. Fixed, I hope.

JNAProductions
2016-07-11, 09:19 PM
Deific Diversion is OP as all hell. It's MUCH BETTER than the equivalent Thief archetype ability.

Hawkflight
2016-07-11, 09:53 PM
Deific Diversion is OP as all hell. It's MUCH BETTER than the equivalent Thief archetype ability.

I removed where it grants advantage. Is that sufficient?

JNAProductions
2016-07-11, 09:54 PM
I removed where it grants advantage. Is that sufficient?

Now it's a little too weak. And honestly, being able to hide when observed just makes no sense-if you're out in the open, you can't hide because there's nothing to hide behind. I'd scratch the entire ability and make something new.

Hawkflight
2016-07-11, 09:56 PM
Now it's a little too weak. And honestly, being able to hide when observed just makes no sense-if you're out in the open, you can't hide because there's nothing to hide behind. I'd scratch the entire ability and make something new.

What would you suggest?

Revlid
2016-07-12, 04:10 AM
:smalltongue:

Well, all kidding aside, why is the Arcane Trickster restricted to Illusion and Enchantment when the Divine Trickster isn't restricted in Domains?

I feel like they ought to have to take Trickery, then get a much earlier divine magic equivalent of the Arcane Trickster's spell-stealing ability, flavoured around being like Prometheus and temporarily stealing divine power from celestials, clerics, fiends etc.

cavalieredraghi
2016-07-12, 04:35 AM
Well, all kidding aside, why is the Arcane Trickster restricted to Illusion and Enchantment when the Divine Trickster isn't restricted in Domains?

I feel like they ought to have to take Trickery, then get a much earlier divine magic equivalent of the Arcane Trickster's spell-stealing ability, flavoured around being like Prometheus and temporarily stealing divine power from celestials, clerics, fiends etc.

He makes a good solid point and After considering it I agree. at least in terms of the Domain the Divine Trickster being restricted to either Knowledge or Trickery makes sense compared to the Arcane trickster

Flashy
2016-07-12, 10:03 AM
Yes. I've also reimplemented the Turn Undead feature.

So Knowledge and Trickery tricksters get more (and substantially more powerful) channel divinity features than tricksters of the other domains? I think that's a sort of questionable design decision. Just because they're sort of thematic they shouldn't be 1. Getting more options than a trickster of another deity and 2. Getting cleric features earlier than an actual cleric of the same domain.

Among other things Read Thoughts at 3rd level breaks the Divine Trickster spell progression wide open, since it lets them cast Suggestion (plus a bunch of juicy riders) using their Channel Divinity. The other tricksters aren't seeing 2nd level spells for another four character levels.


He makes a good solid point and After considering it I agree. at least in terms of the Domain the Divine Trickster being restricted to either Knowledge or Trickery makes sense compared to the Arcane trickster

Personally the way I'd do it is that you can choose any domain, but only get the domain spells. You can choose any cleric spell at the same levels an Arcane Trickster would be allowed to choose any Wizard spell. A War trickster is also pretty thematic, you could have tons of fun with a Death trickster, a Light trickster could be a pretty interesting crusader concept, etc.

Emmerlaus
2016-07-13, 12:10 PM
So Knowledge and Trickery tricksters get more (and substantially more powerful) channel divinity features than tricksters of the other domains? I think that's a sort of questionable design decision. Just because they're sort of thematic they shouldn't be 1. Getting more options than a trickster of another deity and 2. Getting cleric features earlier than an actual cleric of the same domain.

Among other things Read Thoughts at 3rd level breaks the Divine Trickster spell progression wide open, since it lets them cast Suggestion (plus a bunch of juicy riders) using their Channel Divinity. The other tricksters aren't seeing 2nd level spells for another four character levels.



Personally the way I'd do it is that you can choose any domain, but only get the domain spells. You can choose any cleric spell at the same levels an Arcane Trickster would be allowed to choose any Wizard spell. A War trickster is also pretty thematic, you could have tons of fun with a Death trickster, a Light trickster could be a pretty interesting crusader concept, etc.


I agree with almost everything said there. I believe every gods deserve stealth agents to mess with the other gods clerge. Acting as spy in other clerge and such too. Even the most lawful diety must agree that a spy in a evil church organisation could save a evil blood sacrifice and save the victims if needed by planting a spy among them. The only one not caring about such practice might be the neutral ones, like the neutral gods of nature.

However, I see a problem with it: Heavy Armors. Hard to be stealthy if you have to be in Heavy armor or pretend to be a War cleric if you have to be in heavy armor but not proficient with it

The Cunning Action of level 13th always allowed to use that bonus action to hide. So instead, I would allow at level 13th a profiency in Heavy Armor and the ability to negate the disavantage for a small duration (like a hour) on a pecular suit of armor for a cost, like a Turn undead attempt.

cavalieredraghi
2016-07-13, 05:36 PM
I agree with almost everything said there. I believe every gods deserve stealth agents to mess with the other gods clerge. Acting as spy in other clerge and such too. Even the most lawful diety must agree that a spy in a evil church organisation could save a evil blood sacrifice and save the victims if needed by planting a spy among them. The only one not caring about such practice might be the neutral ones, like the neutral gods of nature.

However, I see a problem with it: Heavy Armors. Hard to be stealthy if you have to be in Heavy armor or pretend to be a War cleric if you have to be in heavy armor but not proficient with it

The Cunning Action of level 13th always allowed to use that bonus action to hide. So instead, I would allow at level 13th a profiency in Heavy Armor and the ability to negate the disavantage for a small duration (like a hour) on a pecular suit of armor for a cost, like a Turn undead attempt.

I would disagree completely on heavy armor, not only are you taking away a rogues natural defense of Dex, you are not giving them much of a need for it. Not even all clerics can use heavy armor why should a Divine trickster. Just no..

Emmerlaus
2016-07-13, 06:07 PM
If you think Im wrong, I still believe their level 13 ability is redundant, as the Cunning Action of a rogue already allow to Hide for such action. So it still should be changed OR removed.

Emmerlaus
2016-07-15, 12:03 PM
I came out with a other idea for level 13.

Sure we could just remove it as they get access to level 3 spells at that level... but their is one spell that lost potential of the cleric list as you cant cast it as a higher level spells for his biggest effect: Bestow Curse.

So how about you get the ability to sacrifice turn undead attempts to make a few effect:

Sacrifice one Turn undead attempt to cast this spell silently, with no verbal component. You can use a Sleight of hand attempt to disguise the somatic component and to replace the attack roll needed to touch the target. You cant make a normal use of Sleight of hand if you use it this way, only to cast the spell and deliver the touch attack.

Sacrifice a second undead attempt to make the spell no longer requiere concentration and the rolling the initial Wisdom check for this spell and all further Wisdom check (if any) during the spell duration doesnt make the target aware of the curse without nonmagical mean.

======

I thought it would be flavorful, as it still require a to touch the target to cast the curse. Making it more subtle will be more useful in social setting or when using stealth to use it on the target.

Hawkflight
2016-07-18, 02:21 PM
I feel like they ought to have to take Trickery, then get a much earlier divine magic equivalent of the Arcane Trickster's spell-stealing ability, flavoured around being like Prometheus and temporarily stealing divine power from celestials, clerics, fiends etc.

I disagree with restricting the domains, as, like others have said, I feel like every god should have the opportunity to have their own spies. After all, even IRL there's a lot of conflict between the various religions, it makes sense that there would be even more and more bloody conflicts in a world where the gods actually empirically exist. That said, I do like the idea of reimpliminting the Spell Thief ability.


So Knowledge and Trickery tricksters get more (and substantially more powerful) channel divinity features than tricksters of the other domains? I think that's a sort of questionable design decision. Just because they're sort of thematic they shouldn't be 1. Getting more options than a trickster of another deity and 2. Getting cleric features earlier than an actual cleric of the same domain.

Among other things Read Thoughts at 3rd level breaks the Divine Trickster spell progression wide open, since it lets them cast Suggestion (plus a bunch of juicy riders) using their Channel Divinity. The other tricksters aren't seeing 2nd level spells for another four character levels.

Looking back, I see that I misunderstood your first post. Forgive me, I was very busy at the time, so let me clarify. The way I originally had it, you do get every domain ability, just not at level three - you would still have to wait until you're of at least the same level as a pure cleric to get that ability. So you wouldn't have a rogue with Suggestion at level three. That said, I've actually done some work on that to both clarify that, as well as make the rogue gain domain abilities slower than a cleric of the same level.


However, I see a problem with it: Heavy Armors. Hard to be stealthy if you have to be in Heavy armor or pretend to be a War cleric if you have to be in heavy armor but not proficient with it.

The Cunning Action of level 13th always allowed to use that bonus action to hide. So instead, I would allow at level 13th a profiency in Heavy Armor and the ability to negate the disavantage for a small duration (like a hour) on a pecular suit of armor for a cost, like a Turn undead attempt.

Proficiency is a bit of a problem, but that's the case with many covers. And not even all clerics can wear heavy armor - there are many clerics that wear medium or even light armor instead, so it makes sense that a trickster could pass for a cleric without it.

As for Cunning Action ... I missed that. Good catch. XD

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Okay, so I've made some changes. I changed spell progression to be equal with the Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight, with the caveat that you have to pick your domain's spells before any others ... with the exception of your 20th-level spell slot, which can be any spell. This does mean you gain two more wildcard spells, but the other spells are much more limited. I actually toyed around with saying that you get the domain spells in addition to your regular spells, and/or saying that each domain had one or two favored schools you had to pick from (with the exception of levels 8, 14, and 20), but that seemed a bit too complicated. Though I would love to hear what you guys think.

As I said, I slowed down the rate at which you gain domain abilities as well. I'm actually considering removing all but the 1st and 2nd level abilities and leaving the rest to the pure cleric, with maybe getting the 6th level abilities around the early teens, but we'll see.

Finally, I moved the 17th level ability up to 13th level (to be more in keeping with the abilities from other subclasses like the Arcane Trickster and the Eldritch Knight), and replaced the (formerly) 13th level ability with what is essentially the Arcane Trickster's Spell Thief ability.

Let me know what you guys think.

Hawkflight
2016-07-27, 02:06 PM
I've made a few changes. I've limited the features granted by one's domain to 6th-level abilities max, at level 9. I've also added a cost to Divine Guardian with the use of Channel Divinity. Also, I've added a time limit to Blinding Radiance. Finally, I've whipped up an alternate version of the class that gains almost no spellcasting, but does focus on domains. PEACH.

JNAProductions
2016-07-27, 02:07 PM
Just commenting on the base one.

It has WAY TOO MUCH Channel Divinity. It has the exact same progression as a real Cleric, which is a little much.

Hawkflight
2016-07-27, 02:39 PM
Just commenting on the base one.

It has WAY TOO MUCH Channel Divinity. It has the exact same progression as a real Cleric, which is a little much.

Uh, no? It only grants up to 6th-level abilities, and that at a reduced rate. Or did you mean the alternate one?

JNAProductions
2016-07-27, 02:59 PM
Uh, no? It only grants up to 6th-level abilities, and that at a reduced rate. Or did you mean the alternate one?

It has one at level 3 (which is, admittedly, a level behind cleric,) twice at sixth level, and three times at 18. I'm talking about just Channel Divinity-not domain features.

Hawkflight
2016-07-27, 03:11 PM
It has one at level 3 (which is, admittedly, a level behind cleric,) twice at sixth level, and three times at 18. I'm talking about just Channel Divinity-not domain features.

Ohhh, okay. What would you recommend - once at 3rd and twice at 13th?

JNAProductions
2016-07-27, 07:25 PM
Ohhh, okay. What would you recommend - once at 3rd and twice at 13th?

That'd be good.

Hawkflight
2016-07-27, 09:00 PM
That'd be good.

Done.

What are your thoughts on the alternate (spoilered) version? I'm liking it more and more, but PEACH and all that.

Hawkflight
2016-08-02, 05:08 PM
I have added another alternate variation of this class, this one eschewing spells completely in favor of domains. This one also lists out each domain individually, stating what the trickster gains at the level - although so far I've only done the Knowledge domain, and even that one is lacking flavor text. Although I have added tenets they must follow.

As always, PEACH.

clash
2016-10-06, 09:46 AM
I agree with almost everything said there. I believe every gods deserve stealth agents to mess with the other gods clerge. Acting as spy in other clerge and such too. Even the most lawful diety must agree that a spy in a evil church organisation could save a evil blood sacrifice and save the victims if needed by planting a spy among them. The only one not caring about such practice might be the neutral ones, like the neutral gods of nature.


In line with this comment, I would call this subclass Divine Agent rather than Divine Trickster. Other then that I think it looks pretty good.

Ugganaut
2016-10-06, 08:43 PM
Love the idea Hawkflight, I love rogues, been working on the Soulknife as a psionic variant, so love the divine angle :)

Firstly, the fluff stuff. I know its minor , but since they bought out Mystic instead of Psion, naming conventions have bothered me :)
If you're not restricting the domain, then you need to keep things very broad. Arcane Trickster keeps things narrow, not just limited. Its not "you can choose 2 schools", its "these are the 2 schools you get". I just don't see the War domain representing a trickster. Light domain seems counter-intuitive to a rogue's abilities in general, but I'm sure someone would come up with a concept that fits :)

I would call this subclass Divine Agent rather than Divine Trickster. Other then that I think it looks pretty good.
I think Divine Agent is a great suggestion.
"Perhaps you were born under divine circumstances. Perhaps you or your family did something to earn the gods' favor." - This makes it sound like a divine boon, but its a choice of devotion like a cleric or paladin. What roles do you seeing this subclass filling, or how are your rogue abilities serving your diety? Are they infiltrators of the church, assassins, spies etc. List some examples of what role they can fill in a church, or function they can serve for their deity would be my suggestion.
Spells Known. Good to have as a design note, but not needed in the final draft. You could add to "slots" that its for domain spells.
Divine Domain. I wouldn't list the domains unless you are restricting them. I'd expect more domains to get released over time(as Arcana was).
Divine Guardian. Makes me think of the character guarding someone else, but thats more me than the name.
Blinding Radiance. It just sounds odd to me for a rogue. And without a description, I don't see how it relates to the features effects unless its a flash of light...which seems un-rogue-like.
Divine Heist. Love it :)

I'll try go through these one by one :)
Divine Domain: Whether restricting domains or keeping it broad, I do love the idea of severely limiting the spells to that domain list. Keeps them focused :)
"Once you gain a domain spell, you always have it prepared, and it doesn’t count against the number of spells you can prepare each day. " - Can they prepare other spells? Was hoping it was limited to Domain spells only.

Channel Divinity: Agree it needs 2 starting ones(Domain and a version of Turn Undead), but it should end there imo. Those level 6 ones, are not a generic upgrade to Channel Divinity, they are cleric class features. Knowledge gets Read Thoughts, Life gets Blessed Healer. So a rogue who chooses a domain with a CD at 6 has a free power boost unless you grant all rogues access to the level 6 feature of the cleric. And I don't think you should, as that's delving a bit far into the cleric.
Its nice to have the divine flavor, I just think that flavor needs to boost your rogue abilities where possible. Arcane Trickster uses the Mage Hand cantrip to enhance some rogue skills. Cleric has limited cantrips compared to Wizard, but as a class with a high amount of skills, Guidance might be an idea to focus on somewhere.

Divine Guardian: Something about this bothers me. It sounds like something else is guarding you, but you are using your bonus action to shake off an existing effect. For something like Charm, I never understood how this worked. I see charm like you now think someone is a good friend, and why would you want to try and shake that feeling, unless you knew you were charmed...which often you don't until after it wears off. Aside from that, its not really a Cunning Action. It doesn't enhance any rogue ability. And it being balanced against Magic Ambush, which has a Hidden requirement, plus is limited by spell slots/spells requiring a save.
Because the Domain list is so very limited, here might be a good place to add a feature you can spend your spell slots on, in the same way Divine Smite converts slots into damage. But I don't recommend damage. Maybe convert a slot into a +2/lvl to a skill check you just made. You could even add a couple of options imo. Generic things that all agents might find useful. Bonus action Teleport 10ft/slot level gaining advantage on adjacent target for this turn(like Shadow Step). Would need careful thought.

Blinding Radiance: This one confused the hell out of me :) After you use your action to cast a spell or use channel divinity, what action to do you have left to attack with to gain that advantage before the end of your turn? Also, this is being balanced against Versatile Trickster - Mage Hand bonus action distract, Advantage(every round), so its very under powered. Mage Hand needs an Action to cast, but then has 1 minute duration without concentration. Not sure what I'd suggest here, but this is where the Cunning Action feature might need to be expanded.

Divine Heist: Admittedly I'm a bit rushed here, but it seems underpowered. Spell Thief looks like it affects any spell, arcane or divine. As Spell Thief is more rogue than trickster, I see no reason why you just don't reskin it. If you really want the divine only theme, then maybe try expand it a little. Also able to suppress abilities as a reaction against Celestials/Fiends etc, up to CR equal to your spell slots. No idea, that requires a lot of research, but you get the idea.

Short on time, so sorry thats a bit rushed.