Villainous Archetypes: What makes a good 'villain' class?

[CrazyCrab]

Hi everyone,
in the process of making some new archetypes for the DM's Guild and I'm looking for some tips and feedback. I've been in need of some good villains for my campaign, yet you can only go so far with Death Clerics / Oathbreakers / Assassins / Warlocks... To be precise, I feel like the two villainous archetypes in the DMG are quite lacking - while the paladin is pretty darn evil from the flavor alone, the priest is a bit... meh. Could just as well be a Kelemvor priest or anything neutral like that.

So, I've been thinking, what really gives a class that strong villainous vibe? Mechanics, flavor, (presumably) both?

Do you consider the Assassin a villainous archetype? Also, what about the Warlock? I feel like a lot of his patrons are clearly evil, so there's that...

[Devcon1]

Well, in my personal opinion, to start, the assassin and warlock are not inherently evil. The assassin is merely the archetype's name. The rogue who chooses it may choose it to get deadlier attacks or to be able to infiltrate the enemy more easily. Doesn't mean he's evil.

As for the warlock, I admit, the fiend patron is evil beyond a doubt and the great old one is likely evil, the fey and undying patrons don't seem to be just all evil. And even those warlocks who make packs with fiends and great old ones aren't evil. To give an example, say one day this good-aligned dwarf gets drunk at a bar, and happens to cross paths with a succubus in his drunken state. The succubus takes advantage and tricks him into making a pact with her master. Now, normally he would realize he was being tricked, but A, this is a succubus, and B, he's pretty drunk. The next day he awakens with a major headache, only to realize he'd been duped into signing a contract with a demon lord. The dwarf in that situation is not evil for signing the pact, he was very drunk and tricked after all.

Now, to answer your other question, a villainous class isn't just one that seems evil. An assassin sounds evil but it's not truly an evil class, and neither is a warlock. A truly villainous class would be something that is truly evil. Being a cleric to a death god isn't evil, but a cleric who worships...the demon lord Demogorgon, for example, would more than likely be. When making an archetype for a class that you think would be evil, try to think of it more like an actual villainous character than a class. Again, an assassin character is not inherently evil, but a rogue that worships the demon lord Rhyxali and, in turn, is bestowed powers of shadows and stealth from her would be, so the Worshiper of Rhyxali archetype would be an evil archetype.

So that's what I have to say on the matter. Assassins and warlocks aren't necessarily evil, and evil archetypes are best made by thinking more of the character that chooses it than the actual archetype. But again, this is just my personal opinion. Hope this helps.

[CrazyCrab]

Well, in my personal opinion, to start, the assassin and warlock are not inherently evil. The assassin is merely the archetype's name. The rogue who chooses it may choose it to get deadlier attacks or to be able to infiltrate the enemy more easily. Doesn't mean he's evil. [...]

Now, to answer your other question, a villainous class isn't just one that seems evil. An assassin sounds evil but it's not truly an evil class, and neither is a warlock. A truly villainous class would be something that is truly evil. [...]

So that's what I have to say on the matter. Assassins and warlocks aren't necessarily evil, and evil archetypes are best made by thinking more of the character that chooses it than the actual archetype. But again, this is just my personal opinion. Hope this helps.

I see what you mean and I have to agree, even though Fiend warlock is most likely to be evil / borderline selfish neutral, I feel like you can play them as good characters.

That said, what do you think about the Oathbreaker from the DMG? I feel like there is no way to play him as the good guy, the lore and the abilities (boosting fiends and undead of all creatures!) really steer them towards evil. I've also considered Assassin evil since they had to be evil in 3rd to even consider the prestige class, I'm guessing its a bit of nostalgia speaking. I figure that in this edition, yes, you can play a 'good' assassin... even though the act of assassinating another being is usually inherently evil.

That said, if the Assassin is not a villainous rogue archetype, what could be one? I'm sort of struggling with this one.

[Devcon1]

I see what you mean and I have to agree, even though Fiend warlock is most likely to be evil / borderline selfish neutral, I feel like you can play them as good characters.

That said, what do you think about the Oathbreaker from the DMG? I feel like there is no way to play him as the good guy, the lore and the abilities (boosting fiends and undead of all creatures!) really steer them towards evil. I've also considered Assassin evil since they had to be evil in 3rd to even consider the prestige class, I'm guessing its a bit of nostalgia speaking. I figure that in this edition, yes, you can play a 'good' assassin... even though the act of assassinating another being is usually inherently evil.

That said, if the Assassin is not a villainous rogue archetype, what could be one? I'm sort of struggling with this one.
Glad you agree. I have not yet seen the Oathbreaker in the DMG yet, so I will have to go and investigate that at some time in the future.

As for the assassin, I see why you thought them evil. And the assassin archetype, as I said before, isn't really all about assassination in 5e. Many rogues would get it simply to increase their attack damage, or get the party into places. For example, say the party has heard of a ninja who plans to kill the king at the royal ball in 8 days, but can't come as its for nobles of the capital only. The rogue who chose the assassin archetype has the ability to use the previous seven days and 25 gold to set himself up as a rich noble with the rest of the party being his servants and is able to get them in so they can stop the ninja. The rogue may have the assassin archetype, but the abilities he gets can just as easily be used for good. That's why I say the assassin isn't inherently evil (or about assassination for that matter), but again, my opinion.

For an evil rogue archetype, its hard as classes usually aren't evil, its the players, but I think I might have an idea: The Thrall of Rhyxali. A rogue who sells his soul to and worships the demon lord Rhyxali, Queen of Shadows, who in return bestows demonic power upon the rogue worshiper. It would likely bestow demonic powers of shadow to those who chose it, at higher levels possibly allowing the ability for the rogue to meld with shadow and even summon shadow demons to come to his aid. I think it might work for what you want.

[Gastronomie]

The easiest way is to give them access to homebrew (or UA) Black Magic spells that revolve around demon-summoning, demon-buffing, excessive torturing, massacre, the sort.

Or give them class abilities that require killing innocents.

[Ninja_Prawn]

The easiest way is to give them access to homebrew (or UA) Black Magic spells that revolve around demon-summoning, demon-buffing, excessive torturing, massacre, the sort.

Or give them class abilities that require killing innocents.

I agree. I think the biggest thing that separates 'villainous archetypes' from regular archetypes is that by default, they are not available to PCs. They're an optional extra that can be used to tilt the flavour of a whole campaign. Therefore, some of the usual design constraints don't apply. Specifically, regular archetypes almost have to be alignment-agnostic. The assassin has to be written in such a way that you could play a good assassin. The oathbreaker doesn't need to be written in this way.

I've tried to do this a few times, though I don't know how well I've succeeded in the past. Examples: my blackguard martial archetype (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ka4rxdsyxbp6n0p/Martial.pdf?dl=0) (actually the first piece of homebrew I ever made; the 'dishonourable blow' ability on my ronin is also kind of villainous), the fallen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?482608-Zaydos-Princess-Updated-for-5e&p=20583485&viewfull=1#post20583485) archetype for my princess (which I had to make, as the other archetypes included some very un-5e-ish codes of conduct) and my glaistig (https://www.dropbox.com/s/s3crmpfdbc5u5x5/Fey%20Creatures%20Complete.pdf?dl=0) race (page 21/22).

Overall, I'd say writing villainous options is tricky. I certainly find it harder than ordinary stuff.