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AvatarVecna
2016-07-29, 08:37 AM
So, as of late, I've been a bit distracted from PbP putting together a 60th lvl dodecastalt character (don't ask), and because of some interesting hurdles I had to deal with creating the character (namely, very minimal or nonexistent rules for epic/X-stalt chargen), I decided to make this thread for discussing such things. I recognize that systems like this don't really fit with 5e's style (hence why they're not included in Core except for some very minimal epic rules), but I also know that a not-insignificant portion of the community likes higher-power games than the lower-magic game 5e mostly is, so I feel this discussion would be helpful to those interested in playing/running such games.

This thread dives into a bunch of different topics (from discussing the balance of some existing epic homebrew, to magic item musings, to thoughts on hypothetical X-stalt rules, to how certain kinds of abilities should stack in epic/Xstalt/epic Xstalt), so I'm gonna do my best to keep this opening post organized enough. Feel free to comment on everything...or just the stuff you wanna talk about...or nothing. Nothing works too.

Now, in a lot of games, magic items aren't as common as the last couple editions; this is to keep magic items more appreciated, as well as open up the possibility of questing to find particularly rare items like a Holy Avenger or what have you. While a lot of the D&D staples are still present, their relative rarity and abilities make them more valuable...to the point that regular gold can't really buy them in a standard game. The closest we get to "magic item purchase rules" in Core are some vague rarity-based guidelines. However, as has been noted by many people, an items rarity is not necessarily relative to its power/versatility/utility, but is relative to how rare the designers think such an item would be: a water bottle that creates an infinite amount of water forever is just as rare (and according to those rarity-based cost guidelines, just as valuable) as a gem that you can break in order to summon a water elemental for one hour. Even official content is contradictory on what kind of magic items are appropriate for handing out: the game is set up so that you can grind your way from level 1 to level 20 without ever seeing so much as a single potion, but then there's some official adventures that (in the early levels of the game) hands out legendary items.

One way items have been balanced against each other beyond rarity and abilities is Attunement: by default, a character cannot be attuned to more than three items at a time, and no item can be attuned to multiple people at once. This prevents situations like members of a party passing a magic item back and forth to all gain the effect (at least, prevents doing it within a reasonable time frame, since the item's attunement can be changed with a short rest), as well as people from becoming walking piles of magic items like 3.X and 4e boasted, even in games where magic items are more plentiful.

For those seeking a more dependable magic item system, we have the Sane Magic Item Prices homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?424243-Sane-Magic-Item-Prices), where every non-artifact has been priced (whether by the OP, or other homebrewers providing prices for items the OP intentionally left out). I've seen these rules used many times, and have implemented them myself in many short-lived games here ITP. Of course, this system isn't without its own issues: beyond how there's almost certainly magic items there that are priced in a way you don't feel is appropriate (particularly game-changing/-breaking items), the increased access to magic items makes it more likely players will run into the attunement limit than in a normal game, evoking feelings of frustration at having the resources to purchase but not use a lot of items; tangential to that problem is a distinct lack of WBL rules for 5e, even in the 1-20 levels. Now, obviously such WBL has been avoided because there's not really a lot of things expensive enough to warrant adventurers needing to know exactly how much gold they have in high-level chargen: oftentimes "enough to purchase full plate" is all that matters...but if magic items are to be priced (as SMIP attempts to do), one has to know how much money an adventurer could expect to have by a certain level, so as to know what magic items they could be expected to be capable of purchasing by a certain point.

One thing I see come up on occasion is the idea of combining items, whether to gain the benefit of multiple effects at once, to get around the attunement limit, or to create more personalized items. When I've seen it allowed, it's generally been in regards to the SMIP...and has generally involved some kind of additional cost (for example, combining a +3 Longbow with an Oathbow might cost double the combined cost of those items). I'm unsure of what would be appropriate for this kind of thing.

Questions Re: Magic Items

Are there any items you feel are Attuned that shouldn't be, whether for balance or fluff reasons?
Do you think the Attunement limit should be raised, lowered, or untouched for standard campaigns? For high-magic campaigns using SMIP? For epic/gestalt/epic gestalt games?
Does anybody know of some good 5e WBL rules, or have an idea for a good general rule for it?
Are there any items in the Sane Magic Item Prices that you feel are inappropriately priced?
Should item combining be allowed, both with and without SMIP? Why or why not? If so, what do you feel is a reasonable additional cost for the ability to combine items? Should item combos be limited to attunement as normal (requiring double attunement for an item that's two attuned items combined), or is the cost of combining taking into account the ability to bypass attunement limits?



To put things simply, this section is about discussing the balance of some homebrew epic rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19195620&postcount=1) I found and used for this mega-build, which lead me to wonder how balanced some of this was...and how to fix the stuff that was obviously unbalanced.




Barbarian Level
Special
Rage Damage
Proficiency Bonus


21
Faster Movement (+20 ft.), Epic Boon
+5
+7


22
Brutal Critical (4 dice)
+5
+7


23
Ability Score Improvement
+6
+7


24
Extra Attack
+6
+7


25
Racial, Epic Boon
+7
+8


26
Brutal Critical (5 dice)
+7
+8


27
Ability Score Improvement
+8
+8


28
Superior Critical
+8
+8


29
Blindsight, Epic Boon
+9
+9


30
Battleborn, Death Save Advantage
+10
+9


Superior Critical

Your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 18 Ė 20.
Blindsight

Your senses have become so honed that you surpass the sensory limitations of mere mortals. You gain blindsight of 30 ft., and an additional 30 ft. of blindsight while raging.
Battleborn

Any time you hit an opponent, they must roll a Strength saving throw higher than your Strength score, or be knocked prone.
Additionally, the barbarian gets a free attack on any target within his reach that attacked him since his last turn.

Brutal Critical and Fast Movement upgrades feel appropriate.

I'm unsure of how balanced giving Barbarians 18-20 crit range right off the bat is; of the Barbarian mechanics, it's almost certainly the most questionable.

That being said, Blindsight 60 (I know it says 30, but you can rage as a bonus action unlimited times per day, and have basically no reason not to rage all day) is a solid contender.

The automatic save vs prone on every hit is certainly interesting, although I'm unsure of how wise the free attacks are.




Bard Level
Special
Cantrips Known
Spells Known
Bardic Inspiration
Proficiency Bonus


21
Bardic Initiative, Epic Boon
4
23
2d8
+7


22
-
4
23
2d8
+7


23
Ability Score Improvement
4
23
2d8
+7


24
Empathic Learning
4
24
2d8
+7


25
Racial, Epic Boon
4
24
2d10
+8


26
-
5
24
2d10
+8


27
Inspired Rest
5
25
2d10
+8


28
Well Placed Anger
5
25
2d10
+8


29
Epic Boon
5
25
2d12
+9


30
Vocalborn, Death Save Advantage
5
26
2d12
+9


Bardic Initiative

When you roll initiative, all allies within 30 ft. of you, can add your initiative roll Ė 10 to their own initiative rolls, as long as the number is positive. To gain this benefit, a character must be able to hear the bard.
Empathic Learning

Choose a 1st level feature from any class and adopt it as your own.
Inspired Rest

Reduce the time required for a short and long rest by 50% for all allies within 30 ft. of you.
Well Placed Anger

Once per long rest you can place anger on a friendly, neutral or hostile creature that you can see. All hostile creatures within 30 ft. of the target, who can hear you, must make a DC 28 Wisdom saving throw or be forced to attack the marked target until the end of your next turn.
Vocalborn

Playing the Vocalborn song is straining beyond any other performance. You suffer a level of exhaustion, but allow all allies within 60 ft. of you that are able to hear you, to use spells and abilities that are limited to X uses every short or long rest, without needing to rest before using them again. Every friendly character can only use an ability once. While playing you are vulnerable to all non-magic damage and resistant to all magic damage. Requires concentration and lasts up to 30 seconds.

Casting/Bardic Inspiration upgrades feel appropriate.

Boosting the entire party's initiative is...huge. It's an interesting ability, but I'm unsure how balanced it is. I suppose initiative is easy to rig regardless, but still...

Empathic Learning needs to be clarified: namely, does it give you an ability at its lvl 1 power, or at your Bard level? For a super-simple example, if you take Second Wind from the Fighter, are you rolling 1d10+30, or 1d8+1?

Reducing rest time is useful, but at this point in your career, rest time is likely irrelevant; still, a nice fluff power with some mechanical usefulness.

An ability letting you direct the actions of all nearby foes is powerful, but appropriate for an epic bard.

Vocalborn...hrm. "All allies within 60ft get an extra use from their limited use per rest abilities". Hrm...I'm doubtful that this is balanced, but I'm not sure how to change it for the better either.




Cleric Level
Special
Cantrips Known
Proficiency Bonus


21
Extra Attack, Epic Boon
6
+7


22
Epic Spell Capacity Increase
6
+7


23
Ability Score Improvement
6
+7


24
-
7
+7


25
Racial, Epic Boon
7
+8


26
Epic Spell Capacity Increase
7
+8


27
Ability Score Improvement
7
+8


28
-
7
+8


29
Intensify Spell, Epic Boon
8
+9


30
Divineborn, Death Save Advantage
8
+9


Epic Spell Capacity Increase

Every time you gain this ability, you get a single spell slot one level higher than your previous highest level spell slot. You can use these spell slots to increase the power of known spells.
Intensify Spell

All variable, numeric effects of an intensified spell are maximized, then doubled. An intensified spell deals twice maximum damage, cures twice the maximum number of hit points, affects twice the maximum number of targets, and so forth, as appropriate. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected. An intensified spell uses up all spell slots of the spellís actual level, but a minimum of three.
Divineborn

As you have become more divine, you yourself can now perform divine interventions on behalf of your deity or on behalf of yourself. Once every long rest you may rewind a whole round, back to the beginning of your last turn. Only you, deities and other clerics of equal level will know, that your turned back time unless you chose to tell others. If you donít tell them, they are bound to follow the same routine as last time.
Additionally, others might now call upon you for divine interventions. This might include lower level adventurers, commoners or nobles, who have heard of your divinity and regard you a direct extension of your deity, or perhaps even a worthy contender for said deityís place within the pantheon. When somebody calls upon you, you may chose to ignore them, or roll a d20 Ė if you roll 1-10 their pleas go unanswered, if you roll 11-16 you help them slightly, if you roll 17-19 you help them noticeably and if you roll 20 you help them greatly. While receiving a call for help, you are unable to do anything else for 1 minute, as you are in deep concentration, and see through the eyes of the person calling upon you.
Helping people who call upon you, bolsters their belief in your divinity, giving you back used spell slots.
Helping slightly lets gives you back a spell slot between 1st and 6th level (roll 1d6), helping noticeably gives you back a spell slot between 7th and 9th level (roll 1d3), helping greatly gives you back any spell slot you choose. You DM decides when others call upon Divine Intervention from you.

Extra Attack on the Cleric? I guess it's not terrible, but...I'm not sure. It's probably balanced.

10th and 11th lvl spell slots? Oh joy, there's an argument waiting to happen...ah, it'll probably be fine.

Intensify Spell seem appropriate enough.

Divineborn...ooh boy. The fluff is wonderful, but the balance seems...terrible. Maybe that's just my stupid gut and insomnia-induced hallucinations talking.




Druid6 Level
Special
Cantrips Known
Proficiency Bonus


21
Monstrous Wild Shape, Epic Boon
4
+7


22
Druidic Versatility
4
+7


23
Ability Score Improvement
4
+7


24
-
4
+7


25
Racial, Epic Boon
4
+8


26
Intensify Spell
5
+8


27
Ability Score Improvement
5
+8


28
Spell Stowaway
5
+8


29
Epic Boon
5
+9


30
Natureborn, Death Save Advantage
5
+9


Monstrous Wild Shape

You can use your normal Wild Shape ability to take the form of monstrosities (such as a Gorgon or Chimera). The size limitation is the same as your limitation on beast size. You gain all supernatural abilities of the monstrosity.
Druidic Versatility

Whenever you cast a spell without being transformed, you get an extra 10 ft. of movement immediately after using Wild Shape. The extra movement is only usable on that turn. Furthermore, for every round you stay transformed, you get +1 to hit with the first offensive spell after exiting your Wild Shape.
Spell Stowaway

Choose a beneficial spell-like ability you have, or a beneficial spell you can cast. You become attuned to the magic you choose. If another spellcaster within 300 ft. of you uses this magic, you also immediately gain the magicís effect as if it had been used on you by the same caster.
Intensify Spell

All variable, numeric effects of an intensified spell are maximized, then doubled. An intensified spell deals twice maximum damage, cures twice the maximum number of hit points, affects twice the maximum number of targets, and so forth, as appropriate. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected. An intensified spell uses up all spell slots of the spellís actual level, but a minimum of three.
Natureborn

You are immune to all non-magical negative status effects. Additionally you have advantage and +5 on saving throws to avoid magical negative status effects.

You know that powerful Wild Shape thing that people complain about being OP when it's at-will? Let's expand on the forms you can take!

You know what, it needs to be even better: lets gives a speed bonus for casting in wild shape! And let's give a self-stacking per round attack bonus on an ability that lasts for hours!

Spell Stowaway and Intensify Spell are both pretty good in my eyes.

Natureborn seems appropriate enough: you become a lot more tankish.




Fighter Level
Special
Proficiency Bonus


21
Superior Second Wind, exotic weapon proficiency, Epic Boon
+7


22
Extra Attack (4)
+7


23
Ability Score Improvement
+7


24
Action Surge (three uses), Indomitable (four uses)
+7


25
Racial, Epic Boon
+8


26
Extra Attack (5)
+8


27
Ability Score Improvement
+8


28
Additional Fighting Styles,Fighterís Focus
+8


29
Improved Combat Reflexes, Epic Boon
+9


30
Warborn, Death Save Advantage
+9


Superior Second Wind

You no longer need a short or long rest between uses.
Additional Fighting Styles

You may choose another two options from the Fighting Style class feature.
Fighterís Focus

You get +2 to all attack rolls
Improved Combat Reflexes

Attacks of Opportunity no longer use your Reaction.

Warborn

Once per short rest, the fighter can become an avatar of Hextor, increasing the statistics of himself and his allies immensely. While Warborn all the fighterís hits are critical. For three turns the fighter himself and all allies within 30 ft. gain temporary hit points and additional dice for damage rolls. The fighter cannot go below 1 hit point while in this shape, and no matter what his hit points were before using this ability, he will be at 1 hit point when returning to normal.


Round
Temporary hit point gain
Extra damage dice


1
30
3d10


2
20
2d10


3
10
1d10




Another couple extra attacks? Sure, okay.

Another use of Indomitable? Sure, okay.

Another couple Fighting Styles? Sure, okay.

Another +2 to all attack rolls? Sure, okay.

...is that Second Wind at-will now? So, 1d10+30 HP healed per turn, if you have nothing better to do with that bonus action? Am I missing something?

Oh look, AoOs don't take reactions for you anymore. Eh, seems appropriate, actually.

Warborn...certainly interesting, but I think I'll leave the balance debate to somebody else.




Monk Level
Special
AC bonus
Ki
Unarmored Movement
Proficiency Bonus


21
Force Charged Flurry of Blows, Epic Boon
+2
21
+ 30 ft.
+7


22
Mind and Body
+2
22
+ 30 ft.
+7


23
Ability Score Improvement
+2
23
+ 35 ft.
+7


24
Improved Stunning Strike
+3
24
+ 35 ft.
+7


25
Racial, Epic Boon
+3
25
+ 35 ft.
+8


26
Force Enhanced Flurry of Blows
+3
26
+ 35 ft.
+8


27
Ability Score Improvement
+4
27
+ 40 ft.
+8


28
Ki Blast
+4
28
+ 40 ft.
+8


29
Force Empowered Flurry of Blows, Epic Boon
+4
29
+ 45 ft.
+9


30
Kiborn, Death Save Advantage
+5
30
+ 50 ft.
+9


Force Charged Flurry of Blows

Whenever you use Flurry of Blows, you add 1d6 Force damage to each attack.
Force Enhanced Flurry of Blows

Whenever you use Flurry of Blows, you hit all hostile creatures within 5 ft. of the target for 1d6 Force damage.
Force Empowered Flurry of Blows

Whenever you use Flurry of Blows, you hit all hostile creatures within 5 ft. of the target for 1d6 Force damage. Additionally, all allies within 10 ft. of you (including yourself), are healed for half the force damage done.

Mind and Body

All healing effects on you are increased by 2d10.
Improved Stunning Strike

Add +4 to the DC of your Stunning Strike.
Ki-infused Criticals

Landing a critical hitinfuses your body. Roll a d4. Get back that amount of Ki or add that amount ofd6 as Force damage to the attack.
Kiborn

You can chose to use your action and bonus action meditating if you donít spend any movement. When doing so, you gain 3 Ki at the start of your next turn. For every consecutive turn you spend meditating, the Ki regained doubles. On the first round, you would regain 3 Ki. On the following round you would regain 6, for a total of 9. You cannot surpass your maximum Ki with this feature. While meditating you are resistant to all acid, cold, fire, force, lightning, necrotic, poison, radiant and thunder damage.

Speed upgrades, Ki upgrades...a stacking AC bonus? Huh. That last one is probably not good...

Mind And Body, Improved Stunning Strike, and Ki-Infused Crits seem appropriate enough, and mechanically sound.

Your "Flurry Of Blows" is getting quite a few upgrades, it seems, and they all seem appropriate. That said, I'd like to know if people think the AoE force damage from "Force Enhanced Flurry Of Blows" and "Force Empowered Flurry Of Blows" are intended to stack or not.

Kiborn has good fluff, and it feels balanced to me.




Paladin Level
Special
Proficiency Bonus


21
, Epic Boon
+7


22

+7


23
Ability Score Improvement
+7


24

+7


25
Racial, Epic Boon
+8


26

+8


27
Ability Score Improvement
+8


28

+8


29
Epic Boon
+9


30
Oathborn, Death Save Advantage
+9


Oathborn


You gain a bonus depending on your oath:
Devotion
Until the end of your next turn, every hostile creature within 30 ft. of you is blinded. You cannot take any action on your next turn after using Devotion. Usable once per long rest.
Ancient Oath
Until the end of your next turn, every time a hostile creature successfully attacks an ally within 30 ft. of you, the damage dealt is instead turned into temporary hit points for your ally. You cannot take any action on your next turn after using Ancient Oath. Usable once per long rest.
Vengeance
Until the end of your next turn, every time a hostile creature successfully attacks an ally within 30 ft. of you, the attack instead hits themselves for the same amount. You cannot take any action on your next turn after using Vengeance. Usable once per long rest.

I can't quite put my finger on why, but for some reason this epic progression feels like it's missing something important...I dunno. Maybe one of you non-insane people who decided to sleep last night can figure it out.

Oathborn feels nice, though, so that's something.




Ranger Level
Special
Spells Known
Proficiency Bonus


21
Favored Enemy, Epic Boon
12
+7


22
Epic Spell Capacity Increase
12
+7


23
Ability Score Improvement
13
+7


24
Favored Terrain
13
+7


25
Racial, Epic Boon
14
+8


26
Predatory Instincts / One With The Beast
14
+8


27
Ability Score Improvement
15
+8


28
Dedicated Foe Slayer
15
+8


29
Favored Enemy, Epic Boon
16
+9


30
Wildborn, Death Save Advantage
16
+9


Epic Spell Capacity Increase

Every time you gain this ability, you get a single spell slot one level higher than your previous highest level spell slot. You can use these spell slots to increase the power of known spells.
Predatory Instincts

You only gain Predatory Instincts if you chose Hunter as your archetype.
You get to pick another feature from the Hunterís Prey, Defensive Tactics and Superior Hunterís Defense abilities.
One With The Beast

You only gain One With The Beast if you chose Beast Mastery as your archetype.
Your beast companion can now be a large beast with a challenge rating of 1 or lower. Furthermore the beast gains +10 ft. speed and your Wisdom and proficiency modifiers to attack and damage rolls.
Dedicated Foe Slayer

You Foe Slayer ability is no longer usable only once per turn, but is now instead passive for all attacks.
Wildborn

Your favored enemies have disadvantage on all attacks against you, and the first time a favored enemy is attacked by you, it must roll a DC 20 Wisdom saving throw or become frightened by you. Furthermore, while outside and away from civilization, you have advantage on all dice rolls.

More spells, higher spell slots, more favored enemy/terrain...seems on the up and up.

Predatory Instincts seems good for picking up some option you wish you could've taken.

One With The Beast seems weak; yeah, it boosts your animal companions attack and damage, but it was likely already kind of a glass cannon.

Dedicated Foe Slayer is what I originally thought Foe Slayer was, only to become disappointed upon a second read. So...yay, you finally got what your capstone should have been?

Wildborn makes up for all this lackluster crap, though: this ability is awesome! Oh, you're away from civilzation? Advantage on everything. Yes, of course there's other stuff you get! Yeah, okay, this ability is likely OP, but ranger kinda needs the help.




Rogue Level
Special
Sneak Attack
Proficiency Bonus


21
Sneaky opportunity, Epic Boon
11d6
+7


22
Superior Initiative
11d6
+7


23
Ability Score Improvement
12d6
+7


24
Epic Reputation
12d6
+7


25
Racial, Epic Boon
13d6
+8


26
Trap Sense
13d6
+8


27
Ability Score Improvement
14d6
+8


28
Advantageous Dodge
14d6
+8


29
Tricks of the Trade, Epic Boon
15d6
+9


30
Shadowborn, Death Save Advantage
16d6
+9


Sneaky Opportunity

Any attack of opportunity you make, is considered a sneak attack.
Superior Initiative

You gain +10 to all initiative rolls.
Epic Reputation

You gain a +4 bonus to Deception, Intimidation, Performance and Persuasion.
Trap Sense

You automatically detect all traps within 10 ft. of you.
Advantageous Dodge

You have learned to not only avoid incoming blows and projectiles, but to use them against your enemies. When an enemy misses you with an attack, you can use your reaction to force the dodged attack to hit another enemy within 5 ft. of you (if any).
Tricks of the Trade

If you take a hit thatdeals more damage than twice your hit die + your constitution modifier, you maychose to switch places with a friendly or neutral target within 30 ft. of you,and let them take the damage instead.
Shadowborn

When you land a criticalhit all damage dice are set to their maximum value.

Increased SA is awesome. Static Initiative bonus is awesome. Epic Reputation is awesome. Trap Sense is awesome. Advantageous Dodge is awesome. Tricks Of The Trade is an awesome **** move. Shadowborn is AWESOME.

Everything is awesome! Everything is cool, when you're an epic rogue!




Sorcerer Level
Special
Sorcery Points
Proficiency Bonus


21
Wild Adaptation, Epic Boon
21
+7


22
Epic Spell Capacity Increase
22
+7


23
Ability Score Improvement
23
+7


24
-
24
+7


25
Racial, Epic Boon
25
+8


26
Metameditation
26
+8


27
Ability Score Improvement
27
+8


28
-
28
+8


29
Epic Spell Capacity Increase, Epic Boon
29
+9


30
Metaborn, Death Save Advantage
30
+9


Wild Adaptation

Whenever you cast a spell, you gain resistance to all spells of that school until the end of your next round.
If your archetype is Draconic Bloodline you also get to choose an additional dragon from the Draconic Ancestry table (PHB p. 102). If your archetype is Wild Magic, you now get Wild Surges on a roll of 1 Ė 5.
Epic Spell Capacity Increase

Every time you gain this ability, you get a single spell slot one level higher than your previous highest level spell slot. You can use these spell slots to increase the power of known spells.
Metameditation

Reduce the cost of all metamagic abilities by 1, to a minimum of 1. Additionally, adding Twinned Spell to cantrips now costs 0 sorcery points.
Metaborn

Whenever you use a metamagic, roll a d20. Uneven reduces the cost of the metamagic by 1 sorcery point (for a minimum of 0), even doubles the effect of the metamagic. Cantrips allways have their effects doubled, instead of reducing the cost.

Casting upgrades seem fine, and Wild Adaption is nice. 10th/11th lvl spell slots again, which I think is nice considering even an epic sorcerer barely knows any spells unless they're a Favored Soul.

Built-in metamagic reduction? Well, why not? In fact, let's have two things that reduce metamagic!

Oh yeah, and cantrips are automatically doubled.

I feel Metaborn and Metameditation need to be taken down a notch or two, and making up for those notches could be done by simply increasing spells known.




Warlock Level
Special
Cantrips Known
Spell Slots
Slot level
Invocations known
Proficiency Bonus


21
Additional Pact Boon, Epic Boon
4
4
5th
9
+7


22
-
4
5
5th
9
+7


23
Ability Score Improvement
4
5
5th
9
+7


24
Empowered Eldritch Invocations
4
5
6th
10
+7


25
Racial, Epic Boon
4
5
6th
10
+8


26
-
5
6
6th
10
+8


27
Empowered Pact Boons
5
6
6th
11
+8


28
Empowered Arcanum
5
6
6th
11
+8


29
Epic Boon
5
7
6th
11
+9


30
Pactborn, Death Save Advantage
5
7
7th
12
+9


Additional Pact Boon

You may choose another Pact Boon, for a total of two.

Empowered Eldritch Invocation

Choose an Eldritch Invocation you have already chosen, and double its effects (if possible).
Empowered Pact Boons

You boon familiar gets +1 AC and +1 Charisma, Intellect and Wisdom for every warlock level above 20. Additionally, while you are within 10 ft. of your familiar, you get +1 to all attack and damage rolls.
You pact weapon grants you +2 AC and for every 3 warlock levels above 20 deals an additional 1d4 Necrotic and 1d4 Acid damage. Additionally, whenever you land a critical hit with your pact weapon, you regain a used spell slot.
Your Book of Shadows can hold an extra 2 cantrips. Additionally, whenever you cast a cantrip, you can choose to cast it twice. You can do this an amount of times equal to your Charisma modifier every long rest.

Empowered Arcanum

You can cast your Arcanum spells one additional time, before requiring a long rest.
Pactborn

You call on your patron to empower your next offensive spell. For the cost of two spell slots, you can cast the same spell three times within a single round. You may target the same creature with all three casts or target multiple enemies. Usable once every long rest.

Casting upgrades are par for the course.

Choose another pact boon...nice, but not really anything new.

Double one invocations effect...wish you got this at least twice, but once is fine.

Empowered Pact Boons seems to be the focus here; give it credit...it exists.

Empowered Arcanum is more of what you already do, which is effective and balanced, but boring.

Pactborn...ooooooh. I like this. It's not too powerful, but nevertheless, it's definitely great.




Wizard Level
Special
Cantrips Known
Proficiency Bonus


21
Deep Memory, Epic Boon
6
+7


22
Epic Spell Capacity Increase (12)
6
+7


23
Ability Score Improvement
6
+7


24
-
7
+7


25
Racial, Epic Boon
7
+8


26
Epic Spell Capacity Increase (15)
7
+8


27
Ability Score Improvement
7
+8


28
-
7
+8


29
Epic Spell Capacity Increase (18) , Epic Boon
8
+9


30
Arcaneborn, Death Save Advantage
8
+9


Deep Memory

Once per long rest, you may exchange a memorized spell with a non-memorized spell.
Epic Spell Capacity Increase

Every time you gain this ability, you get a single spell as marked in the ability. You can use these spell slots to increase the power of known spells.
Arcaneborn

Once per long rest you may regain all spell slots of 7th level and lower.

Deep Memory seems appropriate without being too OP, and the other basic casting upgrades work okay too.

An 18th lvl spell, huh? That's...fine...really. This feels OP, honestly; it should've gone the route the others did, with the Wizard's advantage being that they got 3 instead of 2, but I digress.

Arcane Born feels overpowered, but not incredibly so, surprisingly.




Race
Level 25 Special


Hill Dwarf
+5 passive perception


Mountain Dwarf
+2 AC


High Elf
Choose a 1st level wizard spell, castable once per short rest


Wood Elf
+10 ft. speed


Dark Elf
You learn to cast Leomundís Tiny Hut as a bonus action once per long rest


Lightfoot Halfling
Hide in Plain Sight


Stout Halfling
Poison Immunity


Human
Choose a feat


Dragonborn
Damage immunity to type of draconic ancestry


Forest Gnome
You know the Illusion spell


Rock Gnome
Spending an hour and 100gp worth of materials, you can build a toy that can identify items and locate hidden doors


Half-Elf
You are immune to charm effects


Half-Orc
Whenever you land a killing blow all hostile creatures within 30 ft. must make a Constitution saving throw or become frightened


Tiefling
You are immune to fire damage


Aarakocra
You can now fly even while wearing medium or heavy armor


Deep Gnome
You have resistance to all area spell damage


Air Genasi
You are resistant to lightning damage and can cast Levitate once every short or long rest


Earth Genasi
You are resistant to poison damage and can cast Pass Without Trace once per short or long rest


Fire Genasi
You are immune to fire damage


Water Genasi
You are immune to acid damage


Goliath
You can use Stoneís Endurance three times every short or long rest








My only real comment here is that these don't feel balanced across the board, but I can't seem to pinpoint a specific reason.

Any thoughts on this homebrew would be appreciated.

Gestalt in 3.5 was an interesting concept: at every level, you took levels in two classes; you got the best HD, the best skills/level, the best save bonuses, and the best BAB from the two classes, and you got the class features of both. Multiclassing, PrCs, racial HD, and LA complicated the system a good bit, as did the many other balance issues already prevalent in 3.5, but the core idea was an interesting one...and one that could easily be expanded upon; if you could take two classes each level, why not three, or eight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?472251-Insanity-Void-3-5-Ocstalt), or one thousand (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20956178&postcount=5)? X-stalt in 3.5, particularly for larger values of X, could be a very difficult system to balance, by virtue of allowing combos that were unfeasible in a more standard game; 5e gestalt would have this same problem, to be sure, but 3.5 gestalt was weighed down by a more onerous balance issue than gestalt allowing for weird combos: namely, even regular 3.5 was hilariously, unapologetically broken from the get-go. 5e gestalt will have the same basic issue 3.5 gestalt had, but at the very least 5e (as an existing system) is much more balanced initially, allowing for more balance in gestalt than was reasonable to expect in 3e.

My intention is to put together some rules for 3.5 X-stalt that still allow for high capabilities and flexibility, while also keeping it from getting out-of-hand should somebody (such as myself) wish to implement X-stalt higher than X=2, as long as X is a value reasonable for 5e. Most of the questions that must be asked are in regards to stacking: namely, what should be allowed to stack across classes, and what shouldn't? So here are my thoughts on what should and shouldn't stack in X-stalt:

HD

Stacks for both HP and HD.

Skills

Starting proficiencies=Most proficiencies+1 for every starting class that would grand a bonus proficiency in multiclassing.

Saves

Any two saves of your choice, chosen from saves your first level classes are proficient in; this is vastly preferable to the "proficient in all saves of every class option" in my mind, particularly in Tristalt and beyond. Other save-stacking (that is, gaining proficiency multiple times), should also be avoided; saves are already much easier to boost than Save DC, you don't need to make Save Expertise a thing.

Spells

Determine each side's Spell DC/slots/spells known/spells prepared separately, adhering to MC spellcasting rules if necessary, before combining spells known/prepared of both sides; feel free to cast spells from one side in the others slots, but you use their DC and other rules. This is obviously a significant upgrade to casters, so let's give martials some love...

Extra Attack

Once again, determine what each side would have on its own under MC stacking rules before allowing the final products to stack.

Unarmored Defense

Similarly to saves, this is easy enough to boost already, especially relative to accuracy. Don't let these stack together.

Classes

I think that this 5e gestalt system should include an option to gestalt a class with another version of itself with a different sub-class; you won't get better skills (usually) or better HD (usually), and things like Cunning Action don't exactly give a benefit to getting them twice, but you'll get two different sub-classes, you'll get more uses of limited use abilities.

AvatarVecna
2016-07-30, 07:19 PM
No comments on any of this? No thoughts on attunemtn, or magic item costs discrepancies, or discussion of the balance of that epic homebrew stuff?

Zman
2016-07-30, 07:50 PM
No comments on any of this? No thoughts on attunemtn, or magic item costs discrepancies, or discussion of the balance of that epic homebrew stuff?

I have a feeling it has to do with how this aims to push 5e well beyond its established limits and likely in conflict for why they are playing 5e. My guess, this thread just speaks to a tiny subset of people on the forum. Couple that with it being quite a bit, my guess enough to scare the rest away.

AvatarVecna
2016-07-30, 07:55 PM
I have a feeling it has to do with how this aims to push 5e well beyond its established limits and likely in conflict for why they are playing 5e. My guess, this thread just speaks to a tiny subset of people on the forum. Couple that with it being quite a bit, my guess enough to scare the rest away.

That's fair, I suppose. Just makes it difficult to review without an outside opinion; I'm already running a gestalt 5e game, and it's likely to go epic before the adventure is over, and since there's been interest in such gestalt 5e more than a couple times in the recruitment section, I thought that maybe discussing things here would give a better starting point for the next time such a game starts.

Maybe if I make a thread about this in the 5e section just discussing the non-homebrew stuff, discussing possible houserules for higher-power play, I could get more discussion...

Zman
2016-07-30, 09:13 PM
You probably will get more feedback that way.

As to your Gestalt rules, looks pretty solid.

HP/Hit Dice: Best of,Minot stacking right!

Spells: You sure you want spellcasters to have twice as many spells? I think best of is still best here, characters will still be limited to the standard number of spell slots.

Extra Attack: shouldn't stack by rules, good to clarify.

Unarmored Defense: All replace AC equation and do not stack.

Classes: Not sure Subclasses should be stacking, seems so redundant, but I guess harmless.




Questions Re: Magic Items
1. Are there any items you feel are Attuned that shouldn't be, whether for balance or fluff reasons?
2. Do you think the Attunement limit should be raised, lowered, or untouched for standard campaigns? For high-magic campaigns using SMIP? For epic/gestalt/epic gestalt games?
3. Does anybody know of some good 5e WBL rules, or have an idea for a good general rule for it?
4. Are there any items in the Sane Magic Item Prices that you feel are inappropriately priced?
5. Should item combining be allowed, both with and without SMIP? Why or why not? If so, what do you feel is a reasonable additional cost for the ability to combine items? Should item combos be limited to attunement as normal (requiring double attunement for an item that's two attuned items combined), or is the cost of combining taking into account the ability to bypass attunement limits?

1. Some are questionable, haven't necessarily gone through all of them and the ought about it.
2. No, it should be kept where it is in all but the highest powered game, and then to 4. Power levels really can get out of hand.
3. Not that I can think of. 1/10xp liquid rewards seems reasonable for most levels. Anything more expensive should be delegated to quest rewards only.
4. None that jump out as Ive looked at it.
5. Absolutely not. At least not beyond custom items based off the existing examples. The items listed in the DMG should establish the ranges of item power to work with.



I'm not going to comment on your Epic class levels as I do not believe such things have any place in 5e's framework and generally saw such things as the icing on the crap cake of 3.5.

I feel like a lot of what you're doing is trying to introduce back some of the things that caused 3.5 problems and I wouldn't touch most of them with a 10' pole.

AvatarVecna
2016-07-30, 09:36 PM
You probably will get more feedback that way.

As to your Gestalt rules, looks pretty solid.

HP/Hit Dice: Best of,Minot stacking right!

Spells: You sure you want spellcasters to have twice as many spells? I think best of is still best here, characters will still be limited to the standard number of spell slots.

Extra Attack: shouldn't stack by rules, good to clarify.

Unarmored Defense: All replace AC equation and do not stack.

Classes: Not sure Subclasses should be stacking, seems so redundant, but I guess harmless.

Allowing Spells, Extra Attack, and Classes to stack is something only for gestalt games that are intentionally beyond normal power levels; a game trying to stay close to normal power levels while still being gestalt would definitely not let them stack, it'd be too much. Yes, Unarmored Defense does not stack with other UD by RAW; this thread is about going beyond the RAW in a rather odd situation to discuss whether allowing it to stack would be unbalanced. As it happens, my answer to the question "why not just let them stack, even though they don't normally?" is "even if we're going to ignore that they can't stack by RAW, AC is easy enough to pump up really high without allowing them to stack; letting them stack would make it even more ridiculous".


1. Some are questionable, haven't necessarily gone through all of them and the ought about it.
2. No, it should be kept where it is in all but the highest powered game, and then to 4. Power levels really can get out of hand.
3. Not that I can think of. 1/10xp liquid rewards seems reasonable for most levels. Anything more expensive should be delegated to quest rewards only.
4. None that jump out as Ive looked at it.
5. Absolutely not. At least not beyond custom items based off the existing examples. The items listed in the DMG should establish the ranges of item power to work with.

More or less what I expected regarding magic items.


I'm not going to comment on your Epic class levels as I do not believe such things have any place in 5e's framework and generally saw such things as the icing on the crap cake of 3.5.

Minor nitpick: they're not mine. But I see what you're saying.


I feel like a lot of what you're doing is trying to introduce back some of the things that caused 3.5 problems and I wouldn't touch most of them with a 10' pole.

One of the things I liked about 3.5 was that it allowed for powerful characters, larger-than-life heroes far more capable than anybody else; the problem with 3.5 wasn't that it had epic rules, or gestalt rules, but that the base system was incredibly, hilariously unbalanced, and adding in epic/gestalt made balance even harder to maintain. The reason I made this thread, and am interested in debating the possible ways gestalt/epic could potentially be handled in 5e, is because I like a game that allows for that level of power while still keeping the PCs balanced against one another...and when the options for that are "make 3.5 more balanced" and "make 5e more powerful", the latter is clearly the easier change to make. 5e is well-balanced, which is wonderful, and that means that the general power-level can be increased without breaking the game...but when you're increasing the power in an extreme way (such as with gestalt, or with epic), you've got to be careful to avoid screwing the system up.

There's been at least half a dozen high-level gestalt 5e games that have been recruited for here ITP, and while most of them end up dying (as often happens with PbP here ITP), they died during the actual game, rather than dying during recruitment due to lack of interest. I feel that there is a (almost certainly miniscule) part of the community that wants to do stuff like this, and I feel that it would be easier to have veteran 5e players debate and discuss the idea to form some kind of baseline, rather than having every recruitment thread have to debate these issues whenever another one comes up; at the very least, a thread like this can establish a baseline for such an argument.

EDIT: I can totally understand why you'd want to avoid it though--this kind of BS turned a lot of people off of 3.5 in general. Different playstyles, different groups, different people. I've just seen people interested in playing this stuff, and I wanna be able to provide some kind of established position with some good arguments for whenever the next time such a thread starts recruiting is.