PDA

View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next The Etherealist



Hillsy7
2016-08-05, 07:00 AM
Hi guys & gals

This is an edit because I've expanded my new class concept outside of my campaign. Due to my personal love of INT based fighters, well I've built a concept for a one that I'm hoping matches together a different play style and stat block. Read more here:

The Arcanist (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SJL-zqT8l)

NB: this is my first use of homebrewery, so if it isn't outputting correctly, let me know and I'll try and fix.

All feedback welcome, even if it's just "Dude there's too many capital 'A's.....it's making my eyes bleed!"

khadgar567
2016-08-05, 07:48 AM
slipstream way small bonus 1 minute concentration for just 10 feet my advise either made it free action or put some more zeros to range they can teleport and dont be scared to give feet as measurment

Ninja_Prawn
2016-08-05, 08:06 AM
slipstream way small bonus 1 minute concentration for just 10 feet my advise either made it free action or put some more zeros to range they can teleport and dont be scared to give feet as measurment

I disagree. I think it's an excellent feature for bypassing walls/hazards and exploring dungeons generally. Could also be useful for outflanking opponents - your allies kick in the door on one side while you slip in through the opposite wall.

Making it any better would effectively duplicate Misty Step and necessitate moving the ability to a higher level.

I'll review the rest of the class later today. Stay tuned!

Final Hyena
2016-08-05, 08:56 AM
I disagree. I think it's an excellent feature for bypassing walls/hazards and exploring dungeons generally. Could also be useful for outflanking opponents - your allies kick in the door on one side while you slip in through the opposite wall.

Making it any better would effectively duplicate Misty Step and necessitate moving the ability to a higher level.
To be fair the minute casting time is kind of restrictive.

Anyway;
A clickable link to the class. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/16eMr0LRFU-al_PQlHYOXMBH7EWZYzMtjO7BYlkDa_Bk/edit?usp=sharing)

Channel Ether needs a line that links it to the Etherealist table (go have a look at how the barbarian does it). Ow and it needs to specify whether it resets on a short or long rest.

Etheric Mark is very wordy and could be simplified to;
Whenever you successfully hit a target with a melee attack while channelling ether and have one hand empty you roll additional damage shown in the Etheric Mark Damage column of the Etherealist table.
In addition they are considered Etherically marked for the next minute.

khadgar567
2016-08-05, 09:19 AM
I disagree. I think it's an excellent feature for bypassing walls/hazards and exploring dungeons generally. Could also be useful for outflanking opponents - your allies kick in the door on one side while you slip in through the opposite wall.

so before the prawn reviews for expert analisis from my previous ğost you need to drop casting time to at least standard action to it become use full

To be fair the minute casting time is kind of restrictive.

exactly hyena says its to long to cast while your barbarian hell wizard friend can solve door bashing problem more effectively as for increase the range portion of my comment if wizard can cast a single spell in 10 minutes(100 turn( 6 seconds for one turn)) you can bet he metamagics the whazoo out of that spell and you can count that spell will crit on the mob

Hillsy7
2016-08-05, 10:07 AM
exactly hyena says its to long to cast while your barbarian hell wizard friend can solve door bashing problem more effectively as for increase the range portion of my comment if wizard can cast a single spell in 10 minutes(100 turn( 6 seconds for one turn)) you can bet he metamagics the whazoo out of that spell and you can count that spell will crit on the mob

Hey khadgar, thanks for the comments....

In the first iteration, I did have it as an action. However, I thought about it and dialled it back for 3 reasons.

1) It wasn't intended to be a combat feature, so by restricting "casting" time it kept it as a situational perk, rather than something that defines the class. With 3 big combat benefits at 1st and 2nd level (and with an in combat movement perk already folded in - see channel ether benefits) I wanted something that went more a with non-combat, narrative, situation application. Also the world as defined is more technologically robust, so smashing down doors loses its effectiveness. I hear you about the wizard thing - but from my limited experience wizards can do just about anything anyway after a time - so dropping this in as a second level fluff feature might help to save some of the wizard's spell slots. It's a flavour/cool thing, not a core skill.

2) Narratively it felt in keeping with the class concept. The etheric being becomes more powerful going up through the levels, so being able to just click your fingers and phase into the ether field at level 2 when it takes until level 3 to make a bit of light....didn't "feel" right, ya know. I could've introduced it at higher levels I guess, but I tried to do that with Improved Slipstream where you get more situational uses. By then your INT should be 5-6, meaning you have a short range dimension door if you need it (the monk way of the shadow ability is a serious core skill, but you need LOS, and i didn't want it to be anywhere near as powerful)....which leads me onto...

3) I can imagine, as written, having it available in combat could be terrifying in the right hands. Fighting in a castle? Yeah just pop into the other room for a bit, then appear somewhere else later on. Fall in an acid pit? No problems. Hold person? Yeah just 'port to safety. Big nasty wizard hiding at the back of the room? just 'port next to him with a heavy duty melee hitter who mitigates arcane damage.....it just felt too useful for what isn't supposed to be a core ability.

I agree it could be cool as f&*(, but I think it'd start to mimic the shadow monk if I made it into a core skill.

Hillsy7
2016-08-05, 10:23 AM
Channel Ether needs a line that links it to the Etherealist table (go have a look at how the barbarian does it). Ow and it needs to specify whether it resets on a short or long rest.

Etheric Mark is very wordy and could be simplified to;
Whenever you successfully hit a target with a melee attack while channelling ether and have one hand empty you roll additional damage shown in the Etheric Mark Damage column of the Etherealist table.
In addition they are considered Etherically marked for the next minute.

Ooops...yeah fair point - late at night and was half in flowery background mode.....:smile:

As for Etheric mark - that's not quite how it works. You have to hit the target to mark it, then any subsequent attacks do additional damage. That then provides the risk/reward decision of attacking again for extra damage, or nipping off to mark someone else....
....but it definitely shows I need to revisit the wording - it failed its clarity test!!!

And ta for the clicky linky!!!

khadgar567
2016-08-05, 10:55 AM
Hey khadgar, thanks for the comments....

In the first iteration, I did have it as an action. However, I thought about it and dialled it back for 3 reasons.

1) It wasn't intended to be a combat feature, so by restricting "casting" time it kept it as a situational perk, rather than something that defines the class. With 3 big combat benefits at 1st and 2nd level (and with an in combat movement perk already folded in - see channel ether benefits) I wanted something that went more a with non-combat, narrative, situation application. Also the world as defined is more technologically robust, so smashing down doors loses its effectiveness. I hear you about the wizard thing - but from my limited experience wizards can do just about anything anyway after a time - so dropping this in as a second level fluff feature might help to save some of the wizard's spell slots. It's a flavour/cool thing, not a core skill.

2) Narratively it felt in keeping with the class concept. The etheric being becomes more powerful going up through the levels, so being able to just click your fingers and phase into the ether field at level 2 when it takes until level 3 to make a bit of light....didn't "feel" right, ya know. I could've introduced it at higher levels I guess, but I tried to do that with Improved Slipstream where you get more situational uses. By then your INT should be 5-6, meaning you have a short range dimension door if you need it (the monk way of the shadow ability is a serious core skill, but you need LOS, and i didn't want it to be anywhere near as powerful)....which leads me onto...

3) I can imagine, as written, having it available in combat could be terrifying in the right hands. Fighting in a castle? Yeah just pop into the other room for a bit, then appear somewhere else later on. Fall in an acid pit? No problems. Hold person? Yeah just 'port to safety. Big nasty wizard hiding at the back of the room? just 'port next to him with a heavy duty melee hitter who mitigates arcane damage.....it just felt too useful for what isn't supposed to be a core ability.

I agree it could be cool as f&*(, but I think it'd start to mimic the shadow monk if I made it into a core skill.
still 100 turns is to much time to teleport 10 feet as i said takes to much time to be useful even out site of combat a simple pc ( lets say expert) in same time moves 3000 feet aka 600 squares in same grid while you finaly move 10 feet. I am not saying change that to 30 ft teleport as bonus action( okay this would become op to fast and break game ) i just say give them more distance to teleport for same time

Hillsy7
2016-08-05, 11:13 AM
still 100 turns is to much time to teleport 10 feet as i said takes to much time to be useful even out site of combat a simple pc ( lets say expert) in same time moves 3000 feet aka 600 squares in same grid while you finaly move 10 feet. I am not saying change that to 30 ft teleport as bonus action( okay this would become op to fast and break game ) i just say give them more distance to teleport for same time

Sorry, am I missing something? 1 minute = 10 turns....?

khadgar567
2016-08-05, 11:40 AM
silly me no problem

JBPuffin
2016-08-05, 11:49 AM
Marking, you do need to specify better that it's subsequent attacks that do damage. I think you can give Slipstream Int mod uses at 2nd level, honestly; three times per day at 2nd level to teleport 10 feet in a minute and dodge hazards (while still wrecking your hit points) doesn't seem ridiculous. You can make the 13th level boost shorter casting time or longer distance. Ethelight feels like a cantrip that it should have earlier on - it has uses, but not 5th level uses.

The best thing about this class for me is that its abilities are so unique. Triggering - I mean, nothing does that. It's an Intelligence-based class that does like twelve awesome things that no one else can. Good work. :smallsmile:

Ninja_Prawn
2016-08-05, 12:23 PM
So, a full review...

The basic stuff all seems in order. d8 hit dice, light armour, two skills, one good save. Good start.

An arcane rage is a good idea to base a class on. I feel like it's a bit too tanky though - all of the four main features are defensive, and they cover all the bases. How do you attack someone while they're channeling the ether? Even non-magical area attacks are usually going to be targetting dex (explosives) or con (poison gas) saves, one of which is your secondary stat and backed up by proficiency, and the other you have advantage on. I'd change one of the points into something clearly offensive in nature. That'll be less frustrating for all concerned.

I'll trust you've done the maths on Etheric Mark. At first glance, it doesn't look problematic, but I can't be bothered to spade it out properly.

Slipstream we've talked about. I'm in favour of the 1-minute 'casting' time, because it reinforces the fact that it's an exploration tool. Maybe you could make it short rest, to throw a bone to the doubters?

Um, Triggering is weird. Is 'left' a cardinal direction in your world? And ok, three marks enclose an area. Can four marks enclose a volume (like a d4 shape)? Triangles are going to leave a lot of grid spaces partly covered - how do you rule those? What if you're not playing on a grid? This ability is very fiddly and requires a degree of metagaming to use effectively. And is there any way to resist or avoid the damage? Not many things in this game just give you straight up 'use an action to do X damage, do not pass GO, do not collect 200'. Oh, and what type is the damage?

The "you can locate the source of any spell cast within 30 of you" clause of Etheric Awareness doesn't sit quite right with me. a) if it's within 30', surely you already know the source 9 times out of 10? b) it doesn't say you know what the spell is, which means the information isn't particularly useful in any case. c) is this just an attempt to squish sorcerers using subtle spell? That's kind of harsh.

How do you pronounce 'Etheborn'? No one's going to want to pick an archetype they can't pronounce. :smalltongue:

How bright is the Ethelight? Is it dim? Bright? Does it have a radius? Is this just a lame knock-off of the Light cantrip masquerading as a class feature?

REVERSE THE POLARITY OF THE NEUTRON FLOW!

...But, no, Energy Sink seems fine. It's another defensive feature, but if you make the switch I suggested before, that won't be a problem.

Apparition is pretty freaking good. It's like, always-on Freedom of Movement, which is a 4th-level spell. It's kind of... passive, though. Like, no one's going to be standing up, seizing a handful of dice and shouting, "and now I will use my 'Apparition' ability! Hahahaha!" Also, you should specify that the opportunity attack thing only applies while you're channeling.

Etheric Life Force is more fiddly than it needs to be, I think. And it probably makes this class too hard to kill. I'd just make it like, Etheric Backlash or something, so your marks automatically trigger when you drop to 0.

The other two abilities seem fine.

There's a lot of flexibility in those orbs. When you get them at level 3, I'd say that they're way better than 1/3 spellcasting. Probably needs a nerf.

The rest of the engineer archetype looks ok.

Looks like Empowered Marks also provides unavoidable damage. Maybe it's balanced, numbers-wise, but I definitely don't feel comfortable with it.

Pulled to a point equidistant... come on man, that's just unreasonable, whether or not you play on a grid.

Etheric Visage is fine, but stunning yourself with Ether Storm is pretty harsh. I'd say all of the capstones are a little disappointing, to be honest.

Hillsy7
2016-08-05, 04:01 PM
Hey prawn. Drunk and on my phone.....so this should be interesting.

So, overt defensiveness...I was thematically running off the barbarian for channel ether....I think that's a fair point that I could possibly dial back on the defensive capabilities. I wanted a build to have a reason to drop "arcane rage" and then they are vulnerable. On the table, I think you're right there well be a lot of pressure to rest because, hey, I'm at ac11 and I'm out of magic juice....

So, seriously, on the table does your barbarian every run out of rages? I don't know because I've not been exposed enough to barbarians. If not, then does cashing in channeling address that, or am I managing a resource that doesn't exist (on the table).

I'll address capstone note....I read all of them In the phb and I really struggled to.....errr....evaluate them. To be fair I've never taken a charter near 20 so I kinda tried to riff off off the monk/barbarian/Ranger

Re auto damage...... Ok, here's my thinking...I'm hoping for high level enemies at that point. I've been watching a lot of critical role recently and waving and saying "1d8 damage" doesn't feel OP once you've burned a couple of attack turns to set the dude up.

Hillsy7
2016-08-05, 04:21 PM
Hey prawn. Drunk and on my phone.....so this should be interesting.

So, overt defensiveness...I was thematically running off the barbarian for channel ether....I think that's a fair point that I could possibly dial back on the defensive capabilities. I wanted a build to have a reason to drop "arcane rage" and then they are vulnerable. On the table, I think you're right there well be a lot of pressure to rest because, hey, I'm at ac11 and I'm out of magic juice....

So, seriously, on the table does your barbarian every run out of rages? I don't know because I've not been exposed enough to barbarians. If not, then does cashing in channeling address that, or am I managing a resource that doesn't exist (on the table).

I'll address capstone note....I read all of them In the phb and I really struggled to.....errr....evaluate them. To be fair I've never taken a charter near 20 so I kinda tried to riff off off the monk/barbarian/Ranger

Re auto damage...... Ok, here's my thinking...I'm hoping for high level enemies at that point. I've been watching a lot of critical role recently and waving and saying "1d8 damage" doesn't feel OP once you've burned a couple of attack turns to set the dude up.

Ninja_Prawn
2016-08-05, 04:56 PM
Hey prawn. Drunk and on my phone.....so this should be interesting.

So, overt defensiveness...I was thematically running off the barbarian for channel ether....I think that's a fair point that I could possibly dial back on the defensive capabilities. I wanted a build to have a reason to drop "arcane rage" and then they are vulnerable. On the table, I think you're right there well be a lot of pressure to rest because, hey, I'm at ac11 and I'm out of magic juice....

So, seriously, on the table does your barbarian every run out of rages? I don't know because I've not been exposed enough to barbarians. If not, then does cashing in channeling address that, or am I managing a resource that doesn't exist (on the table).

I'll address capstone note....I read all of them In the phb and I really struggled to.....errr....evaluate them. To be fair I've never taken a charter near 20 so I kinda tried to riff off off the monk/barbarian/Ranger

Re auto damage...... Ok, here's my thinking...I'm hoping for high level enemies at that point. I've been watching a lot of critical role recently and waving and saying "1d8 damage" doesn't feel OP once you've burned a couple of attack turns to set the dude up.

So, I looked for a 'go home // you're drunk' gif, but I couldn't find a good one. :smallsigh:

Anyway, I had an additional thought on why the capstones might benefit from a boost. What I'm thinking is that a martial class like this needs something special it can pull out once/day, because most of the time it's basically working the same angle so it needs something showy to match what casters can do with 9th-level spells. Look at the paladin and rogue subclass capstones for example. They're epic, and I think this class needs something similar.

Hillsy7
2016-08-05, 06:49 PM
Haha -the gif would've been awesome -

Right so I'm home now and just about ready to....err.....explain my thinking. Before that - thanks soo much for your input - its quite humbling to see someone actually engage with your idea to the point where they can make evalutaed criticism....rather than...."Dude - you know Ether as a terminology is pretty ****".............so, yeah, properly...thanks man......

...and so....

Triggering - the whole left right thing was a bad example of "as written rules", which in hindsight has no place in a build. ....basically if your marks are lined up thus
O---O---O,
the dude in the middle takes three hits and the end ones take two...That's consistent with the wording, just about. But that's also high nerd understanding of the rules - agreed, it needs claritiy, but as an effect, I think it pays back the effort to attack and mark multiple targets during a fight.

However, it's a fair point that there's no saves - I need to think how that will work without getting dice roll heavy - I ganked the idea from the Paladin Divine strike, and basically delayed the damage output. I smack you upside the head now, but I'll hold back on the extra damage until I'm good and ready.......

....which leads me on to your second point that permeates a lot of very good points.....I've realised after reading your feedback how much of a 4e junky I am, and how much 5e I've followed that is grid/map heavy (critical role!! FTW). I now think in grid terms, even given the potential fluidity of 5e as a theatre of the mind....I agree, there's a bit to do to make the Advance Triggering work in a way that's less....err...precise?

Personally I like the Advanced Triggering because, situationally, its a great synergy ability without being heavy on the damage front. You deal a bit of damage (1d10 max) but potentially set up you wizard/sorceror/warlock to nuke the bejeebus outta them for a few turns. With the STR save, it works better on ranged enemies, but they dont necessarily need to move to keep their personal damage output high.....and as a general rule of thumb have better saves Vs spells when the fireball drops....

All of that aside - I agree I've leaned too much on the grid system..... I need to think of another use that is worthy of a full action other than busting a few dice of damage.....becuase lets face it, while rolling a few more dice per attack is fun, that's what a paladin is for....

Right: defensiveness. The Ethereal does not have resistance to physical attacks, which most enemies will use. Its resistance vs spells only. I think the problem is giving the DEX and INT bonus's - because every man and his dog is going to spam DEX and INT a la a monk?. Perhaps a good compromise is to replace DEX with INT while Channelling???

Also I think where my build has fallen down is the saves - which is entirely fair. I wanted one weak (int, wis, str) and thinking about it picking INT and DEX was the easy option. And actually, lobbing CON saves was an afterthought. That I can deffo drop. My original idea for the build was a STR, INT build.....and realistically with finesse and unarmoured defences, everyone's just going to pile DEX....I need to work out how to fold that in without feeling like a barbarian!

Right, to the more specifics - Etheric awareness was a fluff skill - so if someone was say in the next room, but cast a spell you couldn't see or hear, you'd know about it. And actually - reading subtle spell (which I didn't think about at all) then yes, it's entirely that. I would be interested to know how often on the table an NPC uses this. Having said all of that, perhaps you're right and 3rd level is too early for that?? Or simply dial it down.....?

Quickly....its pronounced ever-born and ever-light as though the 'v' was a 'th'....because, yeah, fantasy innit....=0)...also yeah, the ethelight is entirely a fluff skill....I thought it could make for interesting interactions for an entirely martial class to be able to do interesting light shows. It's basically a roleplay tool if you want to use it....(but yes - I should define the brightness element!)

Apparition....DOH! I thought I wrote that in there!!!...Will correct immediately! Deffo only while channeling....

Etheric lifeforce - ganked that entirely off the barbarian class and tried to uncouple difficult from how many times it's been used so far. So if you are in control of the field and have, say 3 Marks up, you're in with a decent shout of making your save. But you've now popped all your bonuses. So next time you take a hit, you're staring down the barrel of a DC 20 Con save (which ought to be a 3rd stat compared to a barbarians 2nd stat). It also means it limits the etherealist at low HP in whether they wanna pop marks for damage, or save them for the "knock out" save. Personally, I found this an interesting managing of marks....but obviously I've not put it down on the table so I don't know....given that you're using marks for extra damage - do you think this is too easy to cheese?

Engineer: Yeah I read up on the Battle master again today and I've given waaaaaaaay too many options straight off the bat. Need to limit that to 3-4 options.

Empowered marks: to be honest - it's pure feel. By the time this gets crackers, 1d8 of damage is just a nice tick over. Honestly, for the class build it was more a nice way of folding in the damage dice into a theatrical effect. Like having a damage aura that rewards you for doing something other that whaling on a single target......

Capstone: That;s a good point...to be fair it was very late and I was worried about OP-ing...a risk/reward gambit kinda felt right at the time because - hey - stack the bonuses right and you're rolling ALL THE DICE! Each attack against a mark does 2d10 + INT on top of a weapon attack. and at that point the trade off for one turn doing swett FA vs some turns with 3 attacks rolling a crap ton of additional dice seemed like a good exchange.....Seriously, am I missing something here in a trade off? Is a DC 10 concentration throw failed that often? (bear in mind I tend to play martial character.....hence the build....

Anyway - all this pedantic bull**** aside....

1) do you like the class concept?
2) do you think it's broken beyond repair?
3) Does it feel significantly different to a ranger/monk/barbarian subclass???

And yeah....thanks again! My pushbacks are entirely trying to work out where in my thinking my weaknesses are rather tha criticisms of your observations! :smile:

Hillsy7
2016-08-05, 06:52 PM
The best thing about this class for me is that its abilities are so unique. Triggering - I mean, nothing does that. It's an Intelligence-based class that does like twelve awesome things that no one else can. Good work. :smallsmile:

Cheers - Honestly, I hate the fact that there's so few cool things you can do with a INT that isn't a wizard. I miss the 4e warlord because of that. I really do....

Ninja_Prawn
2016-08-06, 03:51 AM
Looks like you've got plenty to think about. In particular, the 5e ruleset doesn't really jive with the 4e playstyle/mindset, so you'd be well-advised to avoid that way of thinking when designing a class. Just a few responses here:


Right: defensiveness. The Ethereal does not have resistance to physical attacks, which most enemies will use. Its resistance vs spells only.

It gets its primary stat added to AC. That's as good as resistance/advantage in my book.


I would be interested to know how often on the table an NPC uses this.

I've never had an NPC use subtle spell, and if I did, it would only be by a recurring/main villain.


Is a DC 10 concentration throw failed that often?

No, but throw enough of them and you're bound to fail one eventually. It feels horrible to fail a DC 10 check...


1) do you like the class concept?
2) do you think it's broken beyond repair?
3) Does it feel significantly different to a ranger/monk/barbarian subclass???

1) Yeah, it seems like a good idea. Needs some tweaks, obviously, but I can dig it.
2) No. I'd have said so at the start if I thought that.
3) It's clearly in the same ballpark, in terms of 'I have this thing that I do, plus a few one-off fireworks'. A well-written fluff section would help distinguish and define it.

Final Hyena
2016-08-06, 05:00 AM
As for Etheric mark - that's not quite how it works. You have to hit the target to mark it, then any subsequent attacks do additional damage. That then provides the risk/reward decision of attacking again for extra damage, or nipping off to mark someone else....
....but it definitely shows I need to revisit the wording - it failed its clarity test!!!

And ta for the clicky linky!!!
I understood how it worked, I deliberately changed it to make it a bit stronger. It makes level 1 more viable.

Hillsy7
2017-01-19, 03:26 PM
Change log.....

* Fluff added for a more PHB feel
* Text adjusted to move class concept outside of personal campaign setting
* After extensive conversations about balancing AC without promoting Dex pump, or breaking early level AC with Medium armour, the main stat boost for armour has been tweaked.
* Offensive bonus added after pointing out how many defensive traits there were.
* More Orb options added for Arcane Engineer.
* Archetype Capstone tweaked to bring power levels into line with other martial classes.
* More grid based abilities adjusted to bring into line with 'Theatre of the mind' play styles.
* More non-combat options added to, hopeful, round out the class.

Again - all feedback welcome.....

Hillsy7
2017-01-20, 07:13 AM
Whoops! Link fixed!!

Hillsy7
2017-01-24, 06:14 AM
Just a little bump as i'm still after feedback now I've completed my first major round of tweaks.

Hillsy7
2017-01-27, 10:15 AM
Hey guys and gals,

Still after feedback now I've completed my first major round of tweaks. By way of payment I will upload photos of Dragon Kittens into the intenet as soon as I find them

Cheers!