[Homebrew] How powerful are the "if you have none gain X" types of feature?

[MrUberGr]

I'm working on a class I'm porting from 4e and I've come across a problem. In 4e this feature was used "at-will" and the entire play-style of the class revolves around this feature. Given that "at-will" class features don't really exist in 5e, I've given the feature 1+Modifier uses per long rest, where each lasts 10 minutes. I wanted to add a feature that says "when you roll initiative and have no uses, you gain one use" but I noticed that the Bard and the Monk have this class feature at level 20. Is it that powerfull of a feature?

[Specter]

For Monk, it's decent, because 4 ki points can last for like 2 rounds, or maybe 4 if rationed. For Fighters and Bards, it's ridiculous. Ranger-like ridiculous.

[MaxWilson]

The Monk and Bard capstones are generally considered underwhelming. Don't read that much into them.

Trust your intuition as to how powerful your feature is.

[Gastronomie]

At least it's not named Foe Slayer.

[MrUberGr]

it's ridiculous. Ranger-like ridiculous.

I'm using this in my signature if you don't mind! ^^


Trust your intuition as to how powerful your feature is.

I was thinking something between 15 to 17.


At least it's not named Foe Slayer.

ahahahaha!

[Specter]

I'm using this in my signature if you don't mind! ^^

Ahaha, sure. I was talking about the ranger capstone, not the whole class (which I love), but it really falls behind sometimes.

[MaxWilson]

I was thinking something between 15 to 17.

Well, I mean, it depends upon what they're regaining. "Regain a 9th level spell slot whenever you have none" would obviously be ridiculous (although liches have something almost exactly like this for 1st-8th level spells via lair actions); "Regain a 1st level spell slot when you have none at the start of a combat" would be okay as a 15th level power and too weak for a 17th level power.

In my opinion.

[Foxhound438]

there are in fact things that are "at will"; see cantrips, a lot of monk abilities (to name a few, deflect missile, shadow step, sun bolt, kamehameha if used at the base 2d6 level), some warlock invocations, and plenty of monster features.

The rule of thumb I would think is that for a martial it shouldn't be something that's "always better" than an attack action, but is instead something situationally useful. and for cantrips (or an equivalent) it should always be weaker than something that you get for a spell slot.

The other rule of thumb would be to make sure it's not something that a character can dip one or two levels into the class and for the rest of their career have an amazingly powerful ability for no resource *glares at every warlock 2/other x build ever*

[MaxWilson]

The other rule of thumb would be to make sure it's not something that a character can dip one or two levels into the class and for the rest of their career have an amazingly powerful ability for no resource *glares at every warlock 2/other x build ever*

Even aside from the level cost, adding a Charisma dependency is a pretty hefty investment for anyone but a bard/sorc/paladin.

[Cybren]

At high level cantrips are definitely better than most 1st level damage spells. That's an artifact of how spel slots work though, and having casters feel like the not falling TOO far behind at at will damage

[gkathellar]

The short version is that they're garbage. For most of said resources, your adventuring day is effectively over if you've run out, and gaining back a tiny amount doesn't change that much.

It's even worse that they come in as capstones.

[Cybren]

The short version is that they're garbage. For most of said resources, your adventuring day is effectively over if you've run out, and gaining back a tiny amount doesn't change that much.

It's even worse that they come in as capstones.

Well, for superiority dice, ki, and bardic inspiration, you recover them on a short rest, which makes recovering ~1/5th your pool if you have 0 incredibly lackluster. Sorcery points at least are a daily resource... Though you're burning slots to get more sorcery points... So you probably have tons of those too...

Yeah they're just bad abilities. Even if they're "good" mechanically they're not particularly exciting, which is really the primary job of a capstone

[MrUberGr]

The Swordmage (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/rJn5ypHP) is the class I'm developing. It's pretty close to being finished, I need to change 2 features and add a capstone. The feature I'm talking about is Swordmage Aegis

[SharkForce]

At high level cantrips are definitely better than most 1st level damage spells. That's an artifact of how spel slots work though, and having casters feel like the not falling TOO far behind at at will damage

eh, that's debatable. the raw damage is pretty decent on cantrips at level 17+ but level 1 spells generally have some advantages... magic missile is an automatic hit, chromatic orb does very flexible damage, burning hands is an aoe spell... and uhhh... witch bolt is a steaming pile of turds, but it was a steaming pile of turds at level 1 too, so no surprise there.

[MaxWilson]

Well, for superiority dice, ki, and bardic inspiration, you recover them on a short rest, which makes recovering ~1/5th your pool if you have 0 incredibly lackluster. Sorcery points at least are a daily resource... Though you're burning slots to get more sorcery points... So you probably have tons of those too...

Yeah they're just bad abilities. Even if they're "good" mechanically they're not particularly exciting, which is really the primary job of a capstone

Perfect Self could be exciting if you were using Speed Factor initiative, since "regain 4 ki points whenever you roll initiative" would happen every single round. Never-ending ki! Great for Death Monks. ;-)

[Anonymouswizard]

Is it that powerfull of a feature?

Short answer no. If it was 'at the beginning of an encounter you gain this much' it would be a highly useful feature, but as it is it fails in the basic task of encouraging me to spend more.

To take the Battlemaster's Superiority Dice as an example, as a Dragonborn Battlemaster 4/Knowledge Cleric 1 I am very reluctant to spend my superiority dice, partially because we rarely fight enemies my maneuvers will be useful against (although this will change once I get a hand crossbow), but also because, despite generally only having one encounter per day, I have no idea if a second encounter will come along where my dice will be better suited.

The problem with regaining one SD if I have none is that I have to feel like that one die will make a difference, whereas if I'm in a sticky situation I generally want 2-3 in the bag, so any time it would come up I'd ask for a short rest.

Now, if in every encounter I got one more superiority die up to my maximum, I'd be likely to spend a die or two per encounter, because I know I'll get one back at the start of the next one. It's a shift in playstyle where, although I'm unlikely to nova with them, I won't hoard them just in case.

The basic rule of a feature is 'if it doesn't come up then it's worthless'. Other people may have different experiences, but I've used a SD once, in a situation where it ended up being completely worthless (I thought 'it'll increase my damage at least' before discovering that I couldn't deal decent damage if I tried because I only had nonmagical damage). But I have a feeling that once out of SD most groups will just take a short rest.

The monk's 4 points of ki is better, as it actually gives a couple of rounds, but it's still lacklustre. It also has the problem of that either it isn't coming up, or you're probably spending a lot more than 4 ki points per encounter, making me wonder why the monk isn't just calling for a short rest (which will probably happen if a Battlemaster and Warlock are in the party). It might be much better if it isn't your primary gimmick, as a lot of monk powers cost ki.

[gkathellar]

Perfect Self could be exciting if you were using Speed Factor initiative, since "regain 4 ki points whenever you roll initiative" would happen every single round. Never-ending ki! Great for Death Monks. ;-)


No joke, when I first read the ability, I was like, "oh, 5E must be using a new initiative roll every round. That's an odd decision." I thought that because I could not imagine that they'd have given such a stupid ability as a capstone.

[MaxWilson]

No joke, when I first read the ability, I was like, "oh, 5E must be using a new initiative roll every round. That's an odd decision." I thought that because I could not imagine that they'd have given such a stupid ability as a capstone.

Confession: I like Perfect Self well enough that I'm not planning on multiclassing my level 11 Shadow Monk at all. The idea of never running out of Empty Body appeals to me, even though rationally I know that it is likely never to come up unless we're fighting a whole army, and even though multiclassing to Rogue for a couple of levels would be highly beneficial. Guess I'm just a sucker for "unlimited".

But I still wouldn't complain if it functioned every round instead of once per combat. And technically maybe it does.

[Tanarii]

At least it's not named Foe Slayer.Because +5 to Hit or Damage once every round against 3 different creature types is just a terrible capstone.

Many players go nuts trying to get +5 DPR, which is what it amounts too since you can add it after you see you've hit (so it's 100% chance of the extra damage). And +5 to hit is usually enough to turn one of your 3-4 attacks in a round into a hit, which can be even more than +5 DPR. Edit: I think. I'd have to run the numbers on averages on that last one to see if it adds up to less. So I may be wrong about turning a hit into a miss 1/rnd being more dpr.

[Cybren]

Confession: I like Perfect Self well enough that I'm not planning on multiclassing my level 11 Shadow Monk at all. The idea of never running out of Empty Body appeals to me, even though rationally I know that it is likely never to come up unless we're fighting a whole army, and even though multiclassing to Rogue for a couple of levels would be highly beneficial. Guess I'm just a sucker for "unlimited".

But I still wouldn't complain if it functioned every round instead of once per combat. And technically maybe it does.

Well, there's still a legitimate reason to go the full 20 levels. If you're getting level 18 for empty body, level 19 gets you an ASI, so you you have to weigh: 18 + 2 level dip, or 19 + 1 level dip, and at that point, +1 ki total and a feature that is narrow but still beneficial might be better than most 1 level dips

[Easy_Lee]

Use rogue as the basis for balancing your feature. The rogue capstone is regarded by many to be the correct balance point: very useful, widely applicable, but not game-breaking.

[gkathellar]

Use rogue as the basis for balancing your feature. The rogue capstone is regarded by many to be the correct balance point: very useful, widely applicable, but not game-breaking.

I love the rogue capstone. It's fantastic design, and it takes all of the themes of the class and accurately sums them up.

[Zalabim]

Because +5 to Hit or Damage once every round against 3 different creature types is just a terrible capstone.

Many players go nuts trying to get +5 DPR, which is what it amounts too since you can add it after you see you've hit (so it's 100% chance of the extra damage). And +5 to hit is usually enough to turn one of your 3-4 attacks in a round into a hit, which can be even more than +5 DPR. Edit: I think. I'd have to run the numbers on averages on that last one to see if it adds up to less. So I may be wrong about turning a hit into a miss 1/rnd being more dpr.

Hitting with almost anything is better than +5 damage. Hitting at level 20 when you already have 20 Wisdom is guaranteed to be better than +5 damage, because you should already have 20 Str or Dex. The problem with foe slayer is that it is restricted only to favored enemies and it is the only ranger feature that requires that much investment in Wisdom to work. Because of the once-per-round, favored-enemies-only restrictions, the payoff for that investment makes people scoff. If you are facing your favored enemy and you did take 20 wisdom anyway I doubt you could find a better 1 level dip to take instead of the capstone.

[Malifice]

For most of said resources, your adventuring day is effectively over if you've run out

I wish you were playing in my campaign so you could see how wrong that statement is.

The adventure has a reason. That reason has a time constraint. Missing that deadline = mission failed.

[Anonymouswizard]

I wish you were playing in my campaign so you could see how wrong that statement is.

The adventure has a reason. That reason has a time constraint. Missing that deadline = mission failed.

Which leads to the other potential problem, hoarding resources, especially if the deadline does not allow a 1 hour short rest per 3 encounters (for what it's worth short rest resources are supposed to last for 2-3 encounters, while long rest ones for up to 8, it's why some classes can recover a few spell slots on a short rest). For something like Superiority Dice, it's not difficult to ration them over 3 encounters or so, you aren't taking a massive dip in effectiveness. Most Battlemaster actually don't see a significant drop in damage if they forgo using a SD. The problem is that if you have to face more than four encounters before you can grab a short rest then resources start to be spread thin, and you have to ask yourself 'do I want this flurry of blows, or do I want to save one of my last few ki points'.

As I previously said, the problem with the abilities is that once they'd come up, most classes will call for a 1 hour short rest to regain their resources. You'll be making occasional short rests anyway to use a couple of hit dice and save on the cleric's spell slots, what's wrong with doing it an encounter earlier than planned.

Now, a tight deadline can make short rests unviable, but at that point I'm never spending a superiority die just in case I need it in three encounters time, and the ability to regain one at the start of combat if I have none is not going to change that. So the ability is either worthless because I'll take a short rest instead, or almost worthless as I'll be hoarding dice.

[Tanarii]

Hitting with almost anything is better than +5 damage. Hitting at level 20 when you already have 20 Wisdom is guaranteed to be better than +5 damage, because you should already have 20 Str or Dex. The problem with foe slayer is that it is restricted only to favored enemies and it is the only ranger feature that requires that much investment in Wisdom to work. Because of the once-per-round, favored-enemies-only restrictions, the payoff for that investment makes people scoff. If you are facing your favored enemy and you did take 20 wisdom anyway I doubt you could find a better 1 level dip to take instead of the capstone.
It's not "the only ranger feature" that requires Wis. Many Spells do. A Ranger that dumps Wisdom is like an EK that dumps Int, a Paladin that dumps Cha, or a Monk that dumps Wis. Dropping a large chunk of class power and then claiming about it is a serious /facepalm moment. Yes, people CAN dump those stats and make a build that works, but don't then complain that the features that depend on them are somehow a problem. The problem is the chosen build not matching design intent.

[gkathellar]

Which leads to the other potential problem, hoarding resources,

Which, again, leads to the ability not coming up, because you don't run out (which also makes for pretty lame play since you're not using your abilities).

[Tanarii]

As I previously said, the problem with the abilities is that once they'd come up, most classes will call for a 1 hour short rest to regain their resources. You'll be making occasional short rests anyway to use a couple of hit dice and save on the cleric's spell slots, what's wrong with doing it an encounter earlier than planned.Because Rests aren't necessarily under player control? (They aren't necessarily NOT under player control either, obviously. I'm just saying you appear to be making a rather huge assumption that they are.)

There's also the aforementioned time limit scenarios. As well as "currently in danger" scenarios for pausing. There are quite a lot of reasons players may not be able to call for a Short Rest under their own control, at times other than those the DM has already built into the adventure. Approximately every 1-3 Encounters (2 on average for Medium or Hard difficulty), if he's following DMG guidelines.

In a (semi-)sandbox environment, including many Dungeons, pace of exploration may very well be under player control, and there may not be time limit or immediate danger reasons for them to press on. That's one reason Wandering Monster exist and are talked about in the 5e DMG. To make stopping in one location for too long without properly holing up a dangerous proposition. The other reason is to make players aware that Time Management is another resource, just like any other.

[Anonymouswizard]

Because Rests aren't necessarily under player control? (They aren't necessarily NOT under player control either, obviously. I'm just saying you appear to be making a rather huge assumption that they are.)

There's also the aforementioned time limit scenarios. As well as "currently in danger" scenarios for pausing. There are quite a lot of reasons players may not be able to call for a Short Rest under their own control, at times other than those the DM has already built into the adventure. Approximately every 1-3 Encounters (2 on average for Medium or Hard difficulty), if he's following DMG guidelines.

Oh, I agree, and if I can be sure of a short rest every 2-4 encounters it becomes a nice ability on those occasional rarer rest days, the problem is where you have to go a long time without rests. The feature should basically not come up if the DM is following the expected rest schedule.


In a (semi-)sandbox environment, including many Dungeons, pace of exploration may very well be under player control, and there may not be time limit or immediate danger reasons for them to press on. That's one reason Wandering Monster exist and are talked about in the 5e DMG. To make stopping in one location for too long without properly holing up a dangerous proposition. The other reason is to make players aware that Time Management is another resource, just like any other.

This is true, this is why I mentioned that most of the time you'll take a short rest at some point, so it really isn't a big deal to do so slightly earlier.

[Tanarii]

Oh, I agree, and if I can be sure of a short rest every 2-4 encounters it becomes a nice ability on those occasional rarer rest days, the problem is where you have to go a long time without rests. The feature should basically not come up if the DM is following the expected rest schedule.Oh okay. I misunderstood your point. You're saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) that generally speaking, if the rests are pretty close to by the book recommendations, however that should occur, a player can pace herself to not run out before the short rest? And if not by the book but under player control, a player can run out faster but she has the option to rest? That sound about right.

Yeah, it's basically an "oh **** I overextended myself" ability, or for those rare times when rests aren't possible because reasons.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's not "the only ranger feature" that requires Wis. Many Spells do. A Ranger that dumps Wisdom is like an EK that dumps Int, a Paladin that dumps Cha, or a Monk that dumps Wis. Dropping a large chunk of class power and then claiming about it is a serious /facepalm moment. Yes, people CAN dump those stats and make a build that works, but don't then complain that the features that depend on them are somehow a problem. The problem is the chosen build not matching design intent.
As a Monk you're throwing half your AC and at the very least your best ability (available from level 5) in the trash. As a Paladin, you're dropping one major class feature available from level 6. An EK or Ranger, though? You're probably loading up on utility and defense as-is. I mean, come on- at low levels you're casting Hunter's Mark and Pass Without Trace; at high levels, you'll maybe add Stoneskin or Swift Quiver. I can't see a single save-based spell I'd waste a slot on.

Foe Hunter may be mathematically good, but it's not exciting. "Oh boy, +5 damage a round, maybe sometimes!" The Bladelock has been doing one better for the last eight levels. You could give it at first level and things would be fine, which is probably the single worst thing you could say about a capstone.

[TheOldCrow]

I'm working on a class I'm porting from 4e and I've come across a problem. In 4e this feature was used "at-will" and the entire play-style of the class revolves around this feature. Given that "at-will" class features don't really exist in 5e, I've given the feature 1+Modifier uses per long rest, where each lasts 10 minutes. I wanted to add a feature that says "when you roll initiative and have no uses, you gain one use" but I noticed that the Bard and the Monk have this class feature at level 20. Is it that powerfull of a feature?

10 minutes? I think with an ability that lasts 10 minutes, a "when you roll initiative and have no uses, you gain one use" feature is probably powerful, but it would achieve it being practically at-will. I guess it depends on what this ability is, and why the simpler route of just making it outright at-will can't be taken.

For things like ki and superiority dice the feature is weaker. In those cases I wish it just created a separate pool that refreshed on initiative. Use those first in an encounter, then use the normal pool if a nova is needed.

[Tanarii]

As a Monk you're throwing half your AC and at the very least your best ability (available from level 5) in the trash. As a Paladin, you're dropping one major class feature available from level 6. An EK or Ranger, though? You're probably loading up on utility and defense as-is. I mean, come on- at low levels you're casting Hunter's Mark and Pass Without Trace; at high levels, you'll maybe add Stoneskin or Swift Quiver. I can't see a single save-based spell I'd waste a slot on.
Ensnaring Strike
Hail of Thorns
Cordon of Arrows
Spike Growth
Conjure Barrage
Lightning Arrow
Plant Growth
Grasping Vine
Conjure Volley

(Going from memory but I believe all those have attack rolls or saves.)

So yeah ... again, you're intentionally choosing a build / spells that don't use Wis, then complaining that Wis isn't necessary and therefore a feature that uses it is bad.

The exact same thing people love to do with EKs and Int.


Foe Hunter may be mathematically good, but it's not exciting. "Oh boy, +5 damage a round, maybe sometimes!" The Bladelock has been doing one better for the last eight levels. You could give it at first level and things would be fine, which is probably the single worst thing you could say about a capstone.You can change a miss into a hit. The damage thing is an option if that doesn't become necessary. Since when are turn a miss into a hit abilities worthless?

[Citan]

Hey guys, is it me or did the thread derail since quite a few posts? ;)
With that said, I cannot bear not to react on this. ^^

As a Monk you're throwing half your AC and at the very least your best ability (available from level 5) in the trash. As a Paladin, you're dropping one major class feature available from level 6. An EK or Ranger, though? You're probably loading up on utility and defense as-is. I mean, come on- at low levels you're casting Hunter's Mark and Pass Without Trace; at high levels, you'll maybe add Stoneskin or Swift Quiver. I can't see a single save-based spell I'd waste a slot on.

Foe Hunter may be mathematically good, but it's not exciting. "Oh boy, +5 damage a round, maybe sometimes!" The Bladelock has been doing one better for the last eight levels. You could give it at first level and things would be fine, which is probably the single worst thing you could say about a capstone.
First, let's agree on a thing: dumping HARD would be too much. Now, keeping cast stat as low as 12-14...
- Monk's Stunning Strike is indeed one of the greatest ability of the class. Now, a Shadow Monk could very well do great with low WIS: no abilities rely on it. If we accept the multiclass builds it's even better: a multiclass Shadow Monk / Rogue can do extremely well while having a low WIS.

- Paladin's Aura +CHA also is one of the best single features of the Paladin (and all classes imo), but a player who would dump CHA because it allows it to max STR and take Polearm Master+Sentinel+GWM would do a very decent choice.
Not saying that I would do it though ;), loves Paladin's Aura and save or suck spells far too much for that.

- Conversely, EK and AT could be very well inspired to bump their INT instead of casting it, because they can become as great or better than full casters (except Sorcerer) thanks to their "disadvantage on saving throw" abilities. Add a multiclass Wizard and you're set for some great fun.

TL;DR Any class with spellcasting can be built either with maxed casting stat or mediocre to decent casting stat: some will be much easier to build or "plain powerful" than others, but all can work.

Now, back on track (I'd be happy to pursue the discussion on above point if you create a dedicated topic though)...

I'm working on a class I'm porting from 4e and I've come across a problem. In 4e this feature was used "at-will" and the entire play-style of the class revolves around this feature. Given that "at-will" class features don't really exist in 5e, I've given the feature 1+Modifier uses per long rest, where each lasts 10 minutes. I wanted to add a feature that says "when you roll initiative and have no uses, you gain one use" but I noticed that the Bard and the Monk have this class feature at level 20. Is it that powerfull of a feature?
It's sad that 4e memories are so far away now, I cannot guess what class (therefore feature) you are talking about.
It's very hard to give you an opinion without the slightest idea of what is it but let's try...

My "blind" opinion would be something like...
- If the feature had a "power level" such as the Protection Fighting Style or Warding Flare (using a reaction to give disadvantage on an attack), like allowing this for 10 mn, you could add this feature around 7th level or so. After all, it's still a "minor" feature that player could also take with some dip.

- If the feature had a power level such as the Rogue's Reliable Talent (significantly affecting rolls), I'd push the regen feature at least up to 12th level.

Cannot give any better thought without idea of what we are talking about, sorry.