Shooting fish in a net; The net guy

[Wakelord]

This is a quick build on how to make an effective net user. It's been written on a phone, so forgive my lack of formatting. The concept is of a combatant who swirls through combat, a net in 1 hand and a hand crossbow in the other. The mechanical goal is to have up to several different opponents restrained without sacrificing too much for it.

This character has been designed for 1-10 games, but those interested in higher levels I am certain can tweak it for those levels.

Now the net has some restrictions, summarised as:
- with a range of 5/15 by default you have disadvantage due to firing a ranged weapon within 5, or have disadvantage as using its long range
- If a net attack is made, no other attacks can be made in that action
- deals d0 (nil) damage
On the other hand, it gives non-magical characters easy access to the restrained condition with no Concentration or time-limit. Creatures can use their action or an attack to escape, but that's cool.

Base chassis:
So any build needs to work around the limitations of the net. Thankfully, that's quite straightforward. The chassis is simple; a character with martial ranged proficiency, access to Archery Fighting style, and a single feat. That gives us a ranger or fighter, and a human if starting 1-3, or whoever you like starting after 4. (Dex is good ofcourse, so elf, Aarakokra & the like come to mind)

This build is built around a key feat, so let's look at it; crossbow expert.
- attacks in melee don't have disadvantage
- ignore crossbow loading property
- if you have a 1h weapon attack, use a BA to attack with a hand crossbow

This gives us the option using the net at 5' without disadvantage, and in addition we get to make a second attack! Woohoo! As an extra benefit as we have thrown a weapon, by the time we can use our bonus action for the crossbow attack we have a free hand, so DMs will be less wary of the 'crossbow expert cheese' ( see below for Shenanigans).

However, our damage is a bit lacking. Given the support we are providing this is no big deal, but for the true optimiser we want more.

Shenanigans:
1) At level 4 you can get sharpshooter. This gives -5 to hit/+10 to damage. With high accuracy (thanks archery style) and advantage, you're looking to hit the majority of the time. Also gives you long range without penalty, so you can be less of an accidental tank by fighting at the 10-15 foot range.
2) Playing hunter. This delays your archery to level 2 and for improved standard damage. You lose the action surge & healing of a fighter though. With hunter's mark and Hunter boon you'd be looking at an extra 8 (1d6+1d8) damage a turn
3) Multiclass rogue. You use your BA most turns, so cunning action has limited utility. Mostly here for sneak attack & Swashbuckler for the automatic disengage. Might pair well with champion fighter for critical sneak attacks (as you'll have advantage most of the time).
4) Multiclass warlock. A 2 lvl dip gets you hex and invocations.
5) play beastmaster. From lvl 5 when we use the attack action 1 attack goes to the net, and the other to the pet. Normally the 2nd attack would be lost, thanks to net rules.

My build would be at 10:
A) Fighter4/Swashbuckler6 for mobility, burst damage & utility. Champion maybe for critfishing, but more likely BM.
B) Beastmaster 10. Swooping pteradon rider, Panther companion or giant snake... Lots of interesting choices for utility or damage there. Favourite would have to be a fisherman and his trusty crab just for the theme

Traps:
1) You only make ranged weapon attacks. Melee weapon attack boons like Barbarian rage, he blade, Smite, booming blade & some battle master manoeuvres won't work.
2) you can't easily disengage, so don't get carried away. Makes some of the hunter OA options actually seem useful
3) Your BA is already taken, so monk, rogue, Eldritch knight & more are less impressive.
4) your net eats the entire action worth of attacks, so multiattack is a waste for those attacks (unless using a warlock familiar, ranger beast or commander's manoeuvre)

DM talks:
1) does the net get d0+Dex, or just 0 damage on a hit?
2) does the net activate manoeuvres, sharpshooter, hex, sneak attack & other riders?
3) Can I use the same crossbow for an Attack action, and then also for the BA?
3)I) if I can't use the same crossbow, can I dual wield crossbows without restriction as I ignore loading?
4) can I mend my nets with a artisan pack (tailor) or with the mending cantrip?
5) (added) What action is required in combat to retrieve a discarded net, and what action to retrieve a net from a dead for?

[Drackolus]

1) does the net get d0+Dex, or just 0 damage on a hit?
2) does the net activate manoeuvres, sharpshooter, hex, sneak attack & other riders?
3) Can I use the same crossbow for an Attack action, and then also for the BA?
3)I) if I can't use the same crossbow, can I dual wield crossbows without restriction as I ignore loading?
4) can I mend my nets with a artisan pack (tailor) or with the mending cantrip?

1) I think 0? The line doesn't say "0," it gas "---," which implies that it doesn't deal damage. That's just my interpretation though.
2) It seems to. An attack is an attack.
3) You can use the same crossbow.
4) Purely DM's discression.

[Corran]

I wonder how useful it would be to do sth like that on a sorcerer, who can quicken spells after having restrained targets with their net. ''Restrained target? Quicken disintegrate!!!''. I was planning to do sth like that with my high dex, low cha (14) assassin/sorcerer, to make up for the lack of my poor DC, but my character was duted before I could get up to that point, thus I didnt really explore this idea. Perhaps there is sth to it though.

[Kurt Kurageous]

I have been playing with the idea of creating a party of stealthy semi-lethal abductors, and this would be one of the builds. "A bolt in her teeth dripping with knockout poison, Nettie Mc Netterson slings the net at the unsuspecting hobgoblin sentry. Even as the net flies outward, her hand follows through to her mouth as she prepares to rapid fire her hand crossbow at the unsuspecting foe."

1. Considering you lose your damage bonus (horribly unfair I think), I as DM might consider adding the lost DEX damage mod to the STR DC 10 to escape the net, doubling the mod on a crit. You throw it accurately enough that they have a harder time getting out. Makes sense, just not in the rules.
2. I dunno. Heads in the direction of cheese, but makes battlemaster interesting again (no it doesn't).
3. Not without reloading with a free hand or a loaded weapon. The loading restriction refers to rate of fire, not the actual ability to load, which requires two hands.
4. Yes, (pun warning) that's what mends are for.

And why the heck aren't Drow racially proficient with nets?

[vcremasco]

My doubt looks strange, but, what kind of action is used when releasing the net from a dead target? "Interact with objects" or a "standard action"?

[Wakelord]

My doubt looks strange, but, what kind of action is used when releasing the net from a dead target? "Interact with objects" or a "standard action"?
Forgot to add that to my 'ask the DM' question set! Which on that note, my personal answers are
1) 0 damage
2) riders can be applied
3) yes to both options
4) yes
However, DMs can be dubious or balancing or demand proof a player can do things things (as opposed to the character), so these are parts that I think a DM might question.


I wonder how useful it would be to do sth like that on a sorcerer, who can quicken spells after having restrained targets with their net. ''Restrained target? Quicken disintegrate!!!''. I was planning to do sth like that with my high dex, low cha (14) assassin/sorcerer, to make up for the lack of my poor DC, but my character was duted before I could get up to that point, thus I didnt really explore this idea. Perhaps there is sth to it though. Cool idea! Fighter2/SorcererX could benefit from it, though if we're honest from lvl 11 the improved cantrip damage could be a better use for pure damage.

[N810]

Maybe you could modify your nets by attaching fishing hooks to them for a little damage (d3 ?)

[XmonkTad]

I love this idea, and personally I could see it as an EK. Grab the mending cantrip for net repair, and make the net & hand crossbow your bonded weapons. Meh, might not even optimal.

But the real king here is the Archery sale + restrained advantage + sharpshooter damage + fighter number of attacks (if they're not out by the second time you get to attack). That's a lot of damage.

[Easy_Lee]

3. Not without reloading with a free hand or a loaded weapon. The loading restriction refers to rate of fire, not the actual ability to load, which requires two hands.


Crossbow Expert very clearly states that you ignore the loading property. That means you don't have to think about how you're loading it, because the property is ignored.

[Goodberry]

Crossbow Expert very clearly states that you ignore the loading property. That means you don't have to think about how you're loading it, because the property is ignored.

But it also states that the bonus attack must be made with a "Loaded Hand Crossbow". That means one which is already loaded at the time the initial attack takes place, not one which you load immediately afterward.

[Easy_Lee]

But it also states that the bonus attack must be made with a "Loaded Hand Crossbow". That means one which is already loaded at the time the initial attack takes place, not one which you load immediately afterward.

You know, we've been discussing this for over a year. If you ignore the loading property, that means you don't have to worry about loading it. If you can only fire loaded crossbows, then they have to be loaded. But if you ignore the loading property, then the crossbow is either always loaded, or can be immediately loaded as if it always had been.

[Goodberry]

You know, we've been discussing this for over a year. If you ignore the loading property, that means you don't have to worry about loading it. If you can only fire loaded crossbows, then they have to be loaded. But if you ignore the loading property, then the crossbow is either always loaded, or can be immediately loaded as if it always had been.

The loading property is a specific property that says you require the use of an action to load a crossbow. Ignoring that property means you don't have to spend an action to load your crossbow, it doesn't mean you can shoot a bolt without it actually being in the dang machine.

[RickAllison]

The loading property is a specific property that says you require the use of an action to load a crossbow. Ignoring that property means you don't have to spend an action to load your crossbow, it doesn't mean you can shoot a bolt without it actually being in the dang machine.

Which is why it also has the Ammunition property!

[ClintACK]

Cool idea! Fighter2/SorcererX could benefit from it, though if we're honest from lvl 11 the improved cantrip damage could be a better use for pure damage.

Of course, at lvl 11, the Sorcerer could be animating ten nets and commanding them to grapple his foes...

[Goodberry]

Which is why it also has the Ammunition property!

Precisely. The ammunition property states that drawing the ammunition is part of the attack. That means that by RAW, you cannot actually ever use crossbow expert's 3rd property because the game provides no facility for shooting a crossbow that's loaded before the attack begins. Lol. Pretty sure that's not the intent, though.

[Goodberry]

Of course, at lvl 11, the Sorcerer could be animating ten nets and commanding them to grapple his foes...

Sure, if you want to treat spellcasters as spellcasters and not as magic rayguns. Spells are for blasting, not for thinking!

[Easy_Lee]

Precisely. The ammunition property states that drawing the ammunition is part of the attack. That means that by RAW, you cannot actually ever use crossbow expert's 3rd property because the game provides no facility for shooting a crossbow that's loaded before the attack begins. Lol. Pretty sure that's not the intent, though.

Actually, incorrect. The hand crossbow is one-handed, meaning it only takes one hand to use. Longbows are two handed. If you needed a free hand to draw the arrow, then you wouldn't be able to fire Longbows at all.

[RickAllison]

Actually, incorrect. The hand crossbow is one-handed, meaning it only takes one hand to use. Longbows are two handed. If you needed a free hand to draw the arrow, then you wouldn't be able to fire Longbows at all.

Nope. Two-handed weapons can be held in one hand, they just can't make the attack. Just as a greatsword-wielding EK can cast a spell using the hand not holding the sword, the longbow wielder just takes one hand off it grab the arrow before stringing it and firing two-handed. The hand crossbow's main usage of being one-handed is the ability to use it for a free shot while the other hand is holding something else.

If anyone does object, the build can be altered by taking the Dual-Wielder feat and buying a brace of hand crossbows. Then you just drop the fired crossbow and draw both a new crossbow and your new net. Or if they didn't escape, shoot them full of bolts while keeping your other hand open.

EKs or Valor Bards just seem great for this. Drop a GFB or BB (in melee), then net with the bonus action.

[Easy_Lee]

Nope. Two-handed weapons can be held in one hand, they just can't make the attack. Just as a greatsword-wielding EK can cast a spell using the hand not holding the sword, the longbow wielder just takes one hand off it grab the arrow before stringing it and firing two-handed. The hand crossbow's main usage of being one-handed is the ability to use it for a free shot while the other hand is holding something else.

Nowhere in the rules does it say that this happens.

[RickAllison]

Nowhere in the rules does it say that this happens.

From the PHB errata (note that this is not even Sage Advice, it is a full addition or correction to the PHB applied to printings going forward):


Ammunition (p. 146). Loading a onehanded
weapon requires a free hand.
Reach (p. 147). This property also
determines your reach for opportunity attacks
with a reach weapon.
Two-Handed (p. 147). This property
is relevant only when you attack with the
weapon, not when you simply hold it.
Weapons (p. 149). Unarmed strike
doesn’t belong on the Weapons table.

So there is in the rules where it occurs, in case you have an older copy of the PHB.

[Easy_Lee]

From the PHB errata (note that this is not even Sage Advice, it is a full addition or correction to the PHB applied to printings going forward):



So there is in the rules where it occurs, in case you have an older copy of the PHB.

Oh boy, they've gone and screwed with the rules again...

[RickAllison]

Oh boy, they've gone and screwed with the rules again...

No, they just corrected assumptions they had made since those assumptions meant that the RAW for their RAI didn't exist. It isn't like Whirlwind Attack where they had the idea and then it was just ambiguous enough for dispute, but that the RAW didn't exist in any form. Or where they screwed up the first time, like with unarmed strikes (which for RAI, I let people treat as weapons. Go ahead and give your monk Magic Weapon, or an EK beating down enemies using GF Fist).

[Easy_Lee]

No, they just corrected assumptions they had made since those assumptions meant that the RAW for their RAI didn't exist. It isn't like Whirlwind Attack where they had the idea and then it was just ambiguous enough for dispute, but that the RAW didn't exist in any form. Or where they screwed up the first time, like with unarmed strikes (which for RAI, I let people treat as weapons. Go ahead and give your monk Magic Weapon, or an EK beating down enemies using GF Fist).

One has to wonder at the intent of the feat in that case. Constantly micromanage whether your character has a free hand? Seems to penalize fighters more than anything. Rogues, the primary beneficiaries of crossbow expert, are largely unaffected since they only make two attacks per turn, max.

[RickAllison]

One has to wonder at the intent of the feat in that case. Constantly micromanage whether your character has a free hand? Seems to penalize fighters more than anything. Rogues, the primary beneficiaries of crossbow expert, are largely unaffected since they only make two attacks per turn, max.

Hand crossbows, IIRC, have a history where they came from the Drow using a signature style of a rapier and a hand crossbow simultaneously. Thus they have the ability to be fired (though not reloaded) one handed so that this style is viable. It also ties into the second benefit of Crossbow Expert, the ability to use it in melee without disadvantage. Doesn't seem to make that much fluff sense up until we consider it as empowering that combination.

Crossbow Expert basically is meant to allow players to best emulate the Drow dual-wielding style while also allowing bigger crossbows to have some fun bonuses. Also, grabbing a brace of those hand crossbows makes for a very sustainable rate of fire for typical D&D combat while keeping the other hand busy.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Thank you Rick for defending my statement about requiring a free hand to load. I do recall this line of discussion. I also agree with Easy_Lee that the PHB errata did nerf the feat. Fiddle-dee-dee!

As a DM, waive what you will.

As a player, talk with the Dm before you build.

Why don't we all just put into our worlds a gnome who invents a self loading multishot (say four or five bolts) single action hand crossbow/springbow that is sold for 1500 gp? So what if it costs as much as a suit of plate? This gnome is a genius! I've already got gnomes who have developed steam powered auto crossbow bolts.

Or find a way to make animate object a permanent effect to create a self-cocking crossbow? Combine that with the gnome hand xbow and you've got a semiautomatic pistol.

[RickAllison]

Thank you Rick for defending my statement about requiring a free hand to load. I do recall this line of discussion. I also agree with Easy_Lee that the PHB errata did nerf the feat. Fiddle-dee-dee!

As a DM, waive what you will.

As a player, talk with the Dm before you build.

Why don't we all just put into our worlds a gnome who invents a self loading multishot (say four or five bolts) single action hand crossbow/springbow that is sold for 1500 gp? So what if it costs as much as a suit of plate? This gnome is a genius! I've already got gnomes who have developed steam powered auto crossbow bolts.

Or find a way to make animate object a permanent effect to create a self-cocking crossbow? Combine that with the gnome hand xbow and you've got a semiautomatic pistol.

As I posted in other threads, I just use the Derro's automatic re-loader modification applied to the hand crossbow. Removes the loading property and automatically reloads the bolt after every shot, halves the range of the crossbow (so 15/60 feet), and holds up to three crossbow bolts per cartridge. It takes an action to reload the cartridge.

[JellyPooga]

Why don't we all just put into our worlds a gnome who invents a self loading multishot (say four or five bolts) single action...

I was only really scan-reading this thread and when I got to this I was really hoping it was going to say;


...net-launcher

Imagine my disappointment. Humph :smallannoyed:

[Kurt Kurageous]

I was only really scan-reading this thread and when I got to this I was really hoping it was going to say;



Imagine my disappointment. Humph :smallannoyed:

Well, why NOT have crossbow-mounted canister net-thrower??? It would probably be a heavy crossbow.

[smcmike]

Um, the feat works just fine if you are holding a hand crossbow and nothing else. Bonus attacks galore.

[Kurt Kurageous]

As I posted in other threads, I just use the Derro's automatic re-loader modification applied to the hand crossbow. Removes the loading property and automatically reloads the bolt after every shot, halves the range of the crossbow (so 15/60 feet), and holds up to three crossbow bolts per cartridge. It takes an action to reload the cartridge.

Where do you find this? I don't have all the sourcebooks, but most.

[RickAllison]

Where do you find this? I don't have all the sourcebooks, but most.

It's from Out of the Abyss, in their monster section. The Derro have two unique weapons. They have a repeating crossbow which has the modifications I listed (except for six bolts per cartridge instead of three, just like I would give a heavy crossbow nine. I am thinking about modifying the numbers to four for the hand and eight for the heavy, though, I haven't decided yet). They also have a hooked shortspear that is light, deals 1d4 piercing damage, does not have the versatile or thrown properties of the spear, and has the special ability where the user can forgo dealing damage on an attack to force a strength saving throw (based on the user's strength for DC) or be rendered prone. Still seems fairly balanced since it requires both a successful hit and has a saving throw.

[Wakelord]

Actually, incorrect. The hand crossbow is one-handed, meaning it only takes one hand to use. Longbows are two handed. If you needed a free hand to draw the arrow, then you wouldn't be able to fire Longbows at all.

Guys, chill. You have all already made your minds up and can't be swayed. Let's leave poorly worded crossbow expert RAW alone and just agree it is likely going to be a point of discussion with your DM. There is no secret correct RAW answer this time.

[Easy_Lee]

Guys, chill. You have all already made your minds up and can't be swayed. Let's leave poorly worded crossbow expert RAW alone and just agree it is likely going to be a point of discussion with your DM. There is no secret correct RAW answer this time.

This time there is. The others were right as per the errata. I wasn't aware of that errata.

[Wakelord]

If anyone does object, the build can be altered by taking the Dual-Wielder feat

EKs or Valor Bards just seem great for this. Drop a GFB or BB (in melee), then net with the bonus action.
Dual wielded is specifically for melee weapons only, and the net is ranged :) Your DM might be nice, but I've tried to minimise DM-disputable. Same reason I've ignored gnome tinkering and UAs!

EKs would be cool too - it'd be a very different combination (GS attacks, drop a hand, draw net and throw with BA into melee). It'd make it feel closer to an enhanced cantrip rather a key fighting style, which is cool in itself!


Um, the feat works just fine if you are holding a hand crossbow and nothing else. Bonus attacks galore.
Yup! Net+hand xbow avoids the worst of the drama, until you have a turn where everything is netted already. Draw & throw a knife is my current option, but once I hit lvl 5 I can't keep up thanks to the 1 draw per turn.

[RickAllison]

Dual wielded is specifically for melee weapons only, and the net is ranged :) Your DM might be nice, but I've tried to minimise DM-disputable. Same reason I've ignored gnome tinkering and UAs!

EKs would be cool too - it'd be a very different combination (GS attacks, drop a hand, draw net and throw with BA into melee). It'd make it feel closer to an enhanced cantrip rather a key fighting style, which is cool in itself!


Yup! Net+hand xbow avoids the worst of the drama, until you have a turn where everything is netted already. Draw & throw a knife is my current option, but once I hit lvl 5 I can't keep up thanks to the 1 draw per turn.

Oh the Dual-Wielder feat isn't for AC, it is for this beauty:


You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when
you w ould normally b e able to draw or stow only one.

No requirement on being melee weapons for that benefit! So the basic plan with that one is drawing both a new net and hand crossbow each turn unless you want to attack an already netted target (in which case you just fire your crossbow one-handed). It takes two feats to get off the ground, but it avoids any potential rules snags.

[Wakelord]

Good point, thanks!

I'm interested if anyone has had the chance to compare it against other control/damage options, like a DPS beastmaster with a giant crab for restraining, or familiar 'help' exploit?