T3 - need help :-) (peach)

[tsj]

T3 is an attempt at taking all classes from the tier list and finding or creating tier 3 versions of all classes mentioned in the tier list.

Possibly all prc that alters your builds tier from Tier 3 could be included in this at a later time

Possibly all classes unique to pathfinder could be included in Tier 3 versions (3.x) at a later time

Possibly any Tier 3 home brew class can be added as well

All classes in the tier list that are already T3 should not be altered

I am asking for help to somehow find a way to play a T3 game where all players only use tier 3 classes..

Any existing official or unoffical class, splat book class, first or second or third party class, home brew class or newly created home brew class will do as long as it is a T3 class and catches the essence of the non tier 3 class it replaces. ..

I am considering using all the excellent tier 3 classes from
Nonsi's 3.5 overhaul in order to
fill most of the gaps.

I still think that a class for each subschool would be usefull though

Anyone winter links to Tier 3 home brew classes please post and share...
Maybe we can also use this thread to keep track of all tier 3 classes...


Well.. here is a copy if the tier list...

Tier 1: overpowering

Wizard - maybe one class for each school. .. we already have beguiler & dread necromancer?

Shouldn't warmage also be tier 3 ????

Cleric - ?

Druid - maybe make wildshape druid and full caster druid?

Archivist - ?

Artificer - ?

Erudite - ?


Tier 2: overpowering

Sorcerer - something similar to wizard? Or limit sorcerer to 2 schools?

Favored Soul - ?

Psion - ?

Binder (with access to online vestiges) - remove since binder already exists as a tier 3 class below?


Tier 3: the sweet spot

Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior


Tier 4: needs boosting

Rogue - ?

Barbarian - ?

Warlock - hmm.. gain 1 invocation each level?

Warmage - gain 2x spells each time you gain practiced spellcaster?

Scout - ?

Ranger - add wildshape?

Hexblade - more hexes?

Adept - ?

Spellthief - ?

Marshal - ?

Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant) - more feats ?


Tier 5: needs boosting

Fighter - remove since fighter already exists in a tier 4 version?

Monk - ?

CA Ninja - ?

Healer - ?

Swashbuckler - ?

Rokugan Ninja - ?

Soulknife - ?

Expert - ?

OA Samurai - ?

Paladin - ?

Knight - ?


Tier 6: needs boosting

CW Samurai - ?

Aristocrat - ?

Warrior - I consider this a pure NPC class - ignore class

Commoner - I consider this a pure NPC class - ignore class


Tier 7: Needs to be made in to a working tier 3 class

Truenamer - class must be fixed - ?

[Xefas]

Anyone winter links to Tier 3 home brew classes please post and share...


I typically winter my links in the warmer southlands, but as it's still the tail end of summer, I have them right here.

Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?245701-Morph-Bark-s-Homebrew-Tier-Compendium) has about ~115 Tier3 homebrew classes in it.

Kane0's Commonly Corrected Classes Compendium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?236469-Commonly-Corrected-Classes-Compendium) has multiple balance rewrites for every official base class ever (give or take a couple, maybe), including twenty-three full Fighter classes, ten Warlock fixes, and a fix for the Cavalier. Because I'm pretty sure there has to be at least one living soul that has played a Cavalier before.

[tsj]

@Xefas: thanks :-)
I think your first link will be the most useful to me, since the classes are all tiered there...

What about warmage, the class is mechanically similar to beguiler and dread necromancer, so shouldn't be tier 3 instead of tier 4?

[Xefas]

@Xefas: thanks :-)
I think your first link will be the most useful to me, since the classes are all tiered there...

What about warmage, the class is mechanically similar to beguiler and dread necromancer, so shouldn't be tier 3 instead of tier 4?

Warmage has less utility overall. High Tiers are based on being able to handle a wide variety of reasonable situations that would arise in a D&D campaign. It's not enough to do one thing incredibly well - that gets you Tier4. In this case, Warmage is great at dealing damage in a direct fight, but not really anything else. It has many many ways of dealing hit point damage, a few sources of ability damage, and a couple save-or-dies at high levels, but that's it. IIRC, it's one non-damage spell is Tenser's Transformation, which isn't good at achieving anything.

Lets examine the example situations given in the original Tier List.

Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.


A Warmage has no built-in way of finding a target or dealing with traps. It has low skill points and no social class skills except Intimidate, which is not a great go-to skill for getting people to trust you. It doesn't have any good way to protect a large area or empower others to do so.
A Warmage could arguably defeat a Black Dragon, given the right circumstances. But they have no defensive spells, low hit points, only one good save, and low defenses overall. Best case scenario, they play rocket tag with the Dragon on its own home turf where its had centuries to prepare its defenses and hope for the best.
Situation #3 is the Warmage's best situation - a lot of weak melee targets spread out over an area where they can be safely nuked from a distance. However, there's more to it than that. Even a town or village is a large place, much less a city. For a class to really conquer this scenario, they need a way of defending multiple points across a wide area, or empowering others to do so.

Now, compare the Beguiler (I'm being brief, because I need to get to bed).

It has Trapfinding, so it can deal with traps. It has a bunch of skill points, a good skill list with all the social skills, and spells that boost their social abilities into orbit. They've got Situation #2 down pretty well. Against a Black Dragon, they're not great in a straight fight, but they're good at making it not a straight fight. At mid-levels they can use Charm Person/Monster and even Dominate Person to accrue NPC allies to aid them in fights, and have a decent suite of battlefield control and defensive spells to support their meatshields, as well as things like Invisibility and sundry illusion magic to dictate the circumstances of engagement. They've even got some ability damage and save-or-lose spells if they feel like going on the offensive. Notably, they have Dispel Magic whereas the Warmage does not, and their Advanced Learning pulls from two schools, as opposed to the Warmage's one.

In Situation #3, their only card is socializing and/or Charming reluctant citizens to fight that wouldn't normally. Give the women and children pitchforks and convince the town that it's morally okay to let them fight! Something like that. Not great, but certainly not worse than what the Warmage could manage.

Now, the Dread Necromancer.

Their schtick is controlling a lot of undead, and that's pretty good. Maintaining a gaggle of high hit-die skeletons doesn't cost you anything in day-to-day spell slots, and allows you to invalidate the Fighter class while also being a decent damage dealer and debuffer who also has infinite out-of-combat healing with Tomb-Tainted Soul.

They can deal with traps by sending expendable undead at them (who may not even die, given their damage reductions and resistances). One huge-sized skeleton crawling down the corridor ahead of you is going to set off every single tripwire, pressure plate, and deadfall while the party stays a comfortable few hundred feet behind it. They can keep all their minions topped off in HP without expending spells, and can easily solo something like a Black Dragon by summoning an Allip with Summon Undead and Wisdom-Draining it while cackling from behind their wall of dudes.

For Situation #2, they're only very slightly better off than the Warmage in the social skill department. But the big difference is that they get utility spells like the Planar Binding line of spells. Need social skills and don't have any? Summon a Succubus with Lesser Planar Binding. She has social skills to spare. Need to convince people you're good and pure of heart, get a Hound Archon to vouch for you. These spells alone give the Dread Necro more versatility than the Warmage's entire class.

For Situation #3, they do the best out of all three classes. They can cover a much larger area with a horde of undead, plus a bunch of bound Outsiders, plus their own considerable spellcasting.

[khadgar567]

Warmage has less utility overall. High Tiers are based on being able to handle a wide variety of reasonable situations that would arise in a D&D campaign. It's not enough to do one thing incredibly well - that gets you Tier4. In this case, Warmage is great at dealing damage in a direct fight, but not really anything else. It has many many ways of dealing hit point damage, a few sources of ability damage, and a couple save-or-dies at high levels, but that's it. IIRC, it's one non-damage spell is Tenser's Transformation, which isn't good at achieving anything.

Lets examine the example situations given in the original Tier List.

Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.



A Warmage has no built-in way of finding a target or dealing with traps. It has low skill points and no social class skills except Intimidate, which is not a great go-to skill for getting people to trust you. It doesn't have any good way to protect a large area or empower others to do so.
A Warmage could arguably defeat a Black Dragon, given the right circumstances. But they have no defensive spells, low hit points, only one good save, and low defenses overall. Best case scenario, they play rocket tag with the Dragon on its own home turf where its had centuries to prepare its defenses and hope for the best.
Situation #3 is the Warmage's best situation - a lot of weak melee targets spread out over an area where they can be safely nuked from a distance. However, there's more to it than that. Even a town or village is a large place, much less a city. For a class to really conquer this scenario, they need a way of defending multiple points across a wide area, or empowering others to do so.


Now, compare the Beguiler (I'm being brief, because I need to get to bed).

It has Trapfinding, so it can deal with traps. It has a bunch of skill points, a good skill list with all the social skills, and spells that boost their social abilities into orbit. They've got Situation #2 down pretty well. Against a Black Dragon, they're not great in a straight fight, but they're good at making it not a straight fight. At mid-levels they can use Charm Person/Monster and even Dominate Person to accrue NPC allies to aid them in fights, and have a decent suite of battlefield control and defensive spells to support their meatshields, as well as things like Invisibility and sundry illusion magic to dictate the circumstances of engagement. They've even got some ability damage and save-or-lose spells if they feel like going on the offensive. Notably, they have Dispel Magic whereas the Warmage does not, and their Advanced Learning pulls from two schools, as opposed to the Warmage's one.

In Situation #3, their only card is socializing and/or Charming reluctant citizens to fight that wouldn't normally. Give the women and children pitchforks and convince the town that it's morally okay to let them fight! Something like that. Not great, but certainly not worse than what the Warmage could manage.

Now, the Dread Necromancer.

Their schtick is controlling a lot of undead, and that's pretty good. Maintaining a gaggle of high hit-die skeletons doesn't cost you anything in day-to-day spell slots, and allows you to invalidate the Fighter class while also being a decent damage dealer and debuffer who also has infinite out-of-combat healing with Tomb-Tainted Soul.

They can deal with traps by sending expendable undead at them (who may not even die, given their damage reductions and resistances). One huge-sized skeleton crawling down the corridor ahead of you is going to set off every single tripwire, pressure plate, and deadfall while the party stays a comfortable few hundred feet behind it. They can keep all their minions topped off in HP without expending spells, and can easily solo something like a Black Dragon by summoning an Allip with Summon Undead and Wisdom-Draining it while cackling from behind their wall of dudes.

For Situation #2, they're only very slightly better off than the Warmage in the social skill department. But the big difference is that they get utility spells like the Planar Binding line of spells. Need social skills and don't have any? Summon a Succubus with Lesser Planar Binding. She has social skills to spare. Need to convince people you're good and pure of heart, get a Hound Archon to vouch for you. These spells alone give the Dread Necro more versatility than the Warmage's entire class.

For Situation #3, they do the best out of all three classes. They can cover a much larger area with a horde of undead, plus a bunch of bound Outsiders, plus their own considerable spellcasting.
small addition to dread necro longer the fight goes more mooks they have so on 3rd quest just needed some corpse to kick start the zombie apocalypse

[Jormengand]

I made something like this for all the core classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?482918-Everyone-is-Tier-3-Class-changes-because-I-m-bored). It's not perfect, but it gets people in the direction they need to go.

[tsj]

@xefas:
Ahh yes... so it's because warmage gets only damage dealing spells

@jormengard:
Thanks :-)

I am trying to compile a big list of tier 3 only classes and yours are going on my list. I will post the list once it's finished :-)

Any suggestions as to how a warm age could go from tier 4 to tier 3? Would doubling it's advanced learning feature do the trick?


----

The goal? To make it possible to play any charecter concept using ONLY tier 3 classes...

:-)

[Grand Arbiter]

I'm not sure if it is T3, but T.G. Oskar's Retooled Warmage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?131346-Retooling-the-Warmage-(or-how-I-learned-to-stop-whining-and-love-the-blasting)-v2) should come closer than the original.

[tsj]

I'm not sure if it is T3, but T.G. Oskar's Retooled Warmage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?131346-Retooling-the-Warmage-(or-how-I-learned-to-stop-whining-and-love-the-blasting)-v2) should come closer than the original.

looks good but I can't risk adding it when it is not tiered. I will only add classes that I know for sure are placed
right in the center of Tier 3...

finished compiling the list as it looks at the moment... it is still incomplete in the sense that some core classes still needs a tier 3 version...




Tier 1:
Wizard,
wizard sub school specialists...

Falsehood School - ?
Cold - ?
Earth - ?
Wind - ?
Universal - ?
Abjuration - ?
Conjuration - ?
Divination - ?
Enchantment - ?
Evocation - ?
Illusion - ?
Nymphology - ?
Tecphology - ?
Necromancy > dread necromancer
Sin Magic Specialist - ?
Transmutation - ?
Air - ?
Earth - ?
Fire - ?
Metal - ?
Void - ?
Water - ?
Wood - ?

Cleric, -> Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - Chorister
Druid, - ?
Archivist, - ?
Artificer. - ?

Tier 2:
Sorcerer, - ?
Favored Soul, - ?
Psion, - ?
Binder (with access to online vestiges) - remove since binder is already on the list

Tier 3: tier 3 classes does not need replacement classes :-)
Beguiler,
Dread Necromancer,
Crusader,
Bard,
Swordsage
Binder (Without access to Summon Monster vestige),
Wildshape Varient Ranger,
Duskblade,
Factotum,
Warblade,
Psionic Warrior
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - Battle Psychic
+3.5e Overhaul - Hexblade
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - Bemäntelter Schatten
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - Conceptualist
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - The Connoisseur
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - The Convoker
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - Corrupted
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - CHOZO WARRIOR
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the monster hunter
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the divine champion
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - dovahkiin
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the sentai
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the shield warrior
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - soul devourer
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - soul disciple
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the spellbound
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - storm lord
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - sublime archer
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - sublime matador
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the travelers
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the trueforge
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the warrior-poet
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the wavekeeper
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - earth dreamer
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the engineer
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the false prophet
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the flowist
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the gambler
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the grimwight
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the invisible guardian
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the hemoscribe
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the improviser
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - jack of all blades
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the kaijin
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - kensei of the five rings
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the librarian (remix)
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the limit dragoon
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - lord of the uttercold
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - magus of blades
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - mamono
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the masque
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - olympian
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - debaser
+Everyone is Tier 3 - Barbarian (Low-gish variant)
+Everyone is Tier 3 - Barbarian (Personal strength variant)
+Everyone is Tier 3 - Barbarian (Martial variant)
+Everyone is Tier 3 - Druid (Animal variant)
+Everyone is Tier 3 - Fighter (Feat variant)
+Everyone is Tier 3 - Fighter (Personal strength variant)
+Everyone is Tier 3 - Monk (Personal strength variant)
+Everyone is Tier 3 - Ranger (Animal variant)
+Everyone is Tier 3 - Rogue (Skill variant)

Tier 4:
Rogue, -> 3.5e Overhaul - Rogue
Barbarian, -> Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - primal
Warlock, -> Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the indigo trickster
Warmage, - see below
Scout, -> Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - Companion
Ranger, -> Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the green knight
Hexblade, -> Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - malefactor
Adept, -> Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - sublime sohei
Spellthief, -> 3.5e Overhaul - Spellthief
Marshal, -> Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the warlord
Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant) -> 3.5e Overhaul - Warrior

Tier 5:
Fighter, -> remove since fighter is already on the list
Monk, -> 3.5e Overhaul - Monk
CA Ninja, - ?
Healer, -> Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the sagittarius
Swashbuckler, - ?
Rokugan Ninja, - ?
Soulknife, -> 3.5e Overhaul - Soulknife
Expert, - ?
Paladin, -> Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - DAWNBLADE
Knight -> Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - kyodai

Tier 6:
CW Samurai, - ?
Aristocrat, -?
Divine Mind (before Mind's Eye updates) - ?


---

What if the warmage learned a wizard spell of his/hers choice at every odd level instead of it's current advanced learning class feature

[tsj]

Anyone attempted to tier the following classes?

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3.5e_All_Classes

[khadgar567]

Anyone attempted to tier the following classes?

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3.5e_All_Classes
my 2 cents of advice don't there is litraly broken classes(ı dont say they are op they are train wrecks)
for christ sake anime girl as class

[tsj]

my 2 cents of advice don't there is litraly broken classes(ı dont say they are op they are train wrecks)
for christ sake anime girl as class

Ok. I just wish I knew of more tier 3 classes since I still haven't found replacements for all the classes in core

Hmm.. in worst case scenario I can use the following link

Http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0

I could make new classes that are a merged version of the class I want to move in tier and an appropriate prc that raises or lowers the tier

Also.. I can use the list to have a list of prcs available to PCs (ones that do not alter the tier)

[tsj]

Warmage = warmage (T4) + mage of the arcane order (+T1) =
Warmage of the arcane order (T3)

Druid = druid (T1) + cavestalker (-T2) =
Cavestalker druid (T3)

Wizard = wizard (T1) + evangelist (-T2) =
Evangelist wizard (T3)

Sorcerer = sorcerer (T2) + rage mage (-T1) =
Rage mage sorcerer (T3)

Artificer = artificer (T1) + wonderworker (-T2) =
Wonderworker artificer (T3)

Classes adjusted with prc that alter their tier are not allowed
multiclassing or additional prcs to avoid breaking free of T3


Archivist = archivist (T1) + mindspy (-T2) =
Mindspy archivist (T3)





Swashbuckler (fighter+rogue)-> devil hunter? ??


What tier is divine mind with divine eye update? ?

[tsj]

Erudite = erudite(T1) + arcane archer (-T2) =
arcane archer erudite (T3)

[tsj]

the list is it currently stands...

-----------------------------------------

Tier 1: overpowering

Wizard = wizard (T1) + evangelist (-T2) =
Evangelist wizard (T3)

Cleric = Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - Chorister (T3)

Druid = druid (T1) + cavestalker (-T2) =
Cavestalker druid (T3)

Archivist = archivist (T1) + mindspy (-T2) =
Mindspy archivist (T3)

Artificer = artificer (T1) + wonderworker (-T2) =
Wonderworker artificer (T3)

Erudite = erudite(T1) + arcane archer (-T2) =
arcane archer erudite (T3)

---

Tier 2: overpowering

Sorcerer = sorcerer (T2) + rage mage (-T1) =
Rage mage sorcerer (T3)

Psion - psion (T2) + cebremancer (-T1) =
cebremancer psion (T3)

Spirit Shaman = spirit shaman(T2) + Combat Medic (-T1) =
Combat Meduc Spirit Shaman (T3) ?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?168335-3-5-Spirit-Shaman-what-tier

Favored Soul = Favored Soul (T2) + Hospitaler (-T1) =
Hospitaler Favored Soul (T3) ?

---

Tier 3: tier 3 classes does not need replacement classes :-)
Beguiler, (illusion specialist)
Dread Necromancer, (necromancy specialist)
Crusader,
Bard,
Swordsage
Binder (Without access to Summon Monster vestige),
Wildshape Varient Ranger,
Duskblade,
Factotum,
Warblade,
Psionic Warrior
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - Battle Psychic
+3.5e Overhaul - Hexblade
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - Bemäntelter Schatten
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - Conceptualist
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - The Connoisseur
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - The Convoker
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - Corrupted
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - CHOZO WARRIOR
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the monster hunter
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the divine champion
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - dovahkiin
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the sentai
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the shield warrior
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - soul devourer
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - soul disciple
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the spellbound
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - storm lord
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - sublime archer
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - sublime matador
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the travelers
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the trueforge
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the warrior-poet
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the wavekeeper
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - earth dreamer
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the engineer
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the false prophet
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the flowist
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the gambler
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the grimwight
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the invisible guardian
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the hemoscribe
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the improviser
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the kaijin
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - kensei of the five rings
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the limit dragoon
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - lord of the uttercold
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - magus of blades
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - mamono
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the masque
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - olympian
+Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - debaser
+Everyone is Tier 3 - Barbarian (Low-gish variant)
+Everyone is Tier 3 - Barbarian (Personal strength variant)
+Everyone is Tier 3 - Barbarian (Martial variant)
+Everyone is Tier 3 - Druid (Animal variant)
+Everyone is Tier 3 - Fighter (Feat variant)
+Everyone is Tier 3 - Ranger (Animal variant)

the following pathfinder classes are added to the tier 3 list..

Alchemist, Bard, Skald, Inquisitor, Magus, Investigator, Warpriest, Hunter

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=11990.0

---

Tier 4: needs boosting

Rogue, -> 3.5e Overhaul - Rogue

Barbarian, -> Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - primal

Warlock, -> Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the indigo trickster

Scout, -> Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - Companion

Ranger, -> Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the green knight

Hexblade, -> Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - malefactor

Adept, -> Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - sublime sohei

Spellthief, -> 3.5e Overhaul - Spellthief

Marshal, -> Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the warlord

Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant) -> 3.5e Overhaul - Warrior

Warmage = warmage (T4) + mage of the arcane order (+T1) =
Warmage of the arcane order (T3) (evocation specialist)

---

Tier 5: needs boosting

Monk, -> 3.5e Overhaul - Monk

Healer, -> Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the sagittarius

Soulknife, -> 3.5e Overhaul - Soulknife

Paladin, -> Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - DAWNBLADE

Knight -> Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - kyodai

Swashbuckler -> Everyone is Tier 3 - Rogue (Skill variant)

CA Ninja -> Everyone is Tier 3 - Monk (Personal strength variant)

Rokugan Ninja - Remove since we have CA Ninja?

OA Samurai -> Everyone is Tier 3 - Fighter (Personal strength variant)

Expert -> Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - jack of all blades

---

Tier 6: needs boosting

CW Samurai - Remove since we have OA Samurai ?

Aristocrat -> Morph Bark's Homebrew Tier Compendium - the librarian (remix)

---

Tier 7: Needs to be made in to a working tier 3 class

Truenamer - class must be fixed - or maybe just remove this class ?

------

allowed prestige classes for "pure" tier 3 classes...


Alienist CA
Animal Lord CAdv
Arachne F&P
Arcane Devotee PGtF
Archmage DMG
Ardent Dilettante PlH
Astral Dancer PlH
Avenging Executioner CS
Battle Trickster CS
Battlerager RoF
Battlesmith RoS
Beastmaster CAdv
Black Blood Hunter PGtF
Blood Magus CA
Breachgnome RoF
Child of Night ToM
Cipher Adept PlH
Cloud Ancorite Frostburn
Combat Trapsmith CS
Consecrated Harrier CD
Corrupt Avenger HoH
Cultist of the Shattered Peak LEoF
Daggerspell Mage CAdv
Dark Scholar Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde
Darkwood Stalker CW
Deep Diviner Und
Deepstone Sentinel ToB
Demonbinder DotU
Disciple of Mammon BoVD
Divine Champion PGtF
Divine Disciple PGtF
Divine Seeker PGtF
Dracolexi RotD
Dracolyte Drc
Dragonrider Drc
Dragonslayer (Dragon heavy game, except as 1 lvl dip) Drc
Dragonsong lyrist Drc
Dread Commando HoB
Dread Witch HoH
Dwarven Defender DMG
Ectopic Adept (only if CPsi nerfs are used already) CPsi
Eldritch Disciple CM
Eldritch Knight DMG
Eldritch Theurge CM
Elemental Savant CA
Elocater (PsiWar or PsiRogue entry) XPH
Exorcist of the Silver Flame ECS
Eye of Gruumsh CW
Fang of Sseth SK
Fiendbinder ToM
Flayerspawn Psychic CPsi
Fortune's Friend CS
Frost Mage (Wizard entry) Frostburn
Frost Rager Frostburn
Geometer CA
Gnome Giant-Slayer CW
Goldeye F&P
Goliath Liberator RoS
Great Rift Deep Defender ShS
Great Rift Skyguard RoF
Hand of the Adama ShS
Highland Stalker CAdv
Imaskari Vengeance Taker Und
Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries Drc
Invisible Blade CW
Iron Mind (Ardent entry) RoS
Jordain Vizier ShS
Justicar CW
Justice of Weald and Woe CR
Kensai CW
Knight of Iron Glacier Frostburn
Knight of the Flying Hunt CV
Knight of the Pearl Stormwrack
Knight of the Weave CV
Lord of Tides (Cleric Entry) Sandstorm
Luiren Marchwarden ShS
Maester CAdv
Magelord (regular entry) LEoF
Maiden of Pain PGtF
Maquar Crusader ShS
Master of Masks (general entry) CS
Master of the Unseen Hand (ghost or similar) CW
Moonsea Skysentinel CV
Morninglord of Lathander PGtF
Nar Demonbinder UE
Nature's Warrior CW
Nightcloak F&P
Occult Slayer CW
Peregrine Runner RoS
Pious Templar (except for 1 level dips) CD
Platinum Knight (Dragon heavy game) Drc
Prime Underdark Guide Und
Psion Uncarnate XPH
Purple Dragon Knight CW
Ravager CW
Reachrunner RoE
Red Wizard DMG
Reforged RoE
Ronin CW
Ruathar RotW
Runecaster PGtF
Sapphire Hierarch MoI
Scar Enforcer RoD
Scourge Maiden ShS
Seeker of the Misty Isle CD
Serpent Slayer SK
Shaaryan Hunter PGtF
Shade Hunter CR
Shadow Adept PGtF
Shadow Thief of Amn PGtF
Shadowbane Inquisitor CAdv
Shadowblade ToM
Shadowcrafter Und
Shadowsmith ToM
Silverstar F&P
Soulcaster MoI
Spellcarved Soldier RoE
Spellsinger RoF
Spinemeld Warrior (non-incarnum entry) MoI
Spymaster CAdv
Stonedeath Assassin RoS
Stonelord CW
Stonespeaker Guardian RoS
Storm Disciple (Ardent dip entry) CPsi
Stormcaster Stormwrack
Stormlord CD
Stormsinger Frostburn
Stormtalon (except for 1 level dips) RotW
Streetfighter CAdv
Strifeleader F&P
Sword Dancer F&P
Sword of Righteousness BoED
Talontar Blightlord UE
Tattooed Monk CW
Techsmith F&P
Temple Raider of Olidammara (Rogue entry) CD
Thayan Knight CW
Thayan Slaver UE
Thrall of Orcus BoVD
Totem Rager MoI
Twisted Lord Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde
Ultimate Magus (w/o fast entry tricks) CM
Uncanny Trickster CS
Vermin Keeper Und
Vigilante CAdv
War Chanter CW
War Mind (pure PsiWar entry) XPH
Warchief Mini
Warshaper (casting entry) CW
Warsling Sniper RoF
Waveservant F&P
Wild Mage CA
Witch Slayer (gish entry) ToM
Zhentarim Spy PGtF

[tsj]

T3 generalized. ..


T1 classes MUST select a prc that lowers their tier by 2

T2 classed MUST select a prc that lowers their tier by 1

T3 classes MAY select a prc that doesn't alter their tier

T4 classes MUST select a prc that raises their tier by 1

T5 classes MUST select a prc that raises their tier by 2

Tiers below 5 are NPC classes

[Jormengand]

Truenamer fix is easy enough - just lower the Evolving Mind DCs to 10+CR, the Crafted Tool DCs to 10+CL or just 10 if there's no CL, and the Perfected Map DCs to 10+(5*Utterance level). Alternatively, I have a more comprehensive fix here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?397500-The-Worldspeaker-revisited-Truenamer-PEACH).

[tsj]

@jormengand: looks good. What Tier is it?

[Jormengand]

@jormengand: looks good. What Tier is it?

By just lowering the DCs you can get it to an easy low-3, and the full fix is a high-3.

[tsj]

Ok so the truenamer fix is added (full fix)

I will also add the high tier 3 home brew classes from the home brew compendium

I must update the list when I get time for it :-)

--

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?194834-3-5-Fighter-Remix-Doin-it-old-school

Jiriku Remix fighter added

[tsj]

The following classes by juriku will be added :

Remixes: fighter, healer, knight-paladin, soulcrafter, swift hunter

New classes: machinist, magician, magus of blades, dawnblade, earth dreamer, emberhaunt, storm lord, wavekeeper

The shadowcaster, void disciple and summoner


All Tier 3 classes :-)

With prc tier adjustment the list now has 113 classes

[Grod_The_Giant]

I like to think that my 'brew worked out pretty well... in my Fixed List Caster Project (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?317861-Fixed-List-Caster-Project-%283-5%29&p=16545265#post16545265), I wrote/rewrote beguiler-style caster classes for all arcane casters, and rewrote divine casters to be more balanced as well. And you'll find links to all of my stuff here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16920452&postcount=4), as well as tweaks to existing almost-there classes.

[tsj]

I like to think that my 'brew worked out pretty well... in my Fixed List Caster Project (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?317861-Fixed-List-Caster-Project-%283-5%29&p=16545265#post16545265), I wrote/rewrote beguiler-style caster classes for all arcane casters, and rewrote divine casters to be more balanced as well. And you'll find links to all of my stuff here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16920452&postcount=4), as well as tweaks to existing almost-there classes.

Very nice and cool indeed. IIRC you are not a fan of the tier system, but I think that the classes that are usually in tier 3 usually seems to have just the right amount of options for my taste. How many of your classes would you say are Tier 3 (ish)?

I absolutely love that you have made beguiler style caster classes, because I really really like the way the beguiler class works. .. both as a class and that it is 'tier 3'

[tsj]

I am considering the following to raise warlock to tier 3:

Spell substitute:

Whenever you gain the deceive item class feature of the warlock, you also gain this class feature.
You can use this class feature a number of times per day equal to your warlock class level.

Spell substitute allows you to substitute any arcane or divine spell in a magic wand for any other arcane or divine spell of equal level.

---

Would very much like to have Tier 3 warlock and warmage classes :-)

---

Hmm Tier 3 fighter...

What about...

Cleave mastery (cleave, Greater cleave and supreme cleave in one feat)
Deflect attacks (arrows, ranged magic attacks)
Aggro (attract a nr of enemies equal to your level, they must attack you)
Might need more...

[Grod_The_Giant]

Very nice and cool indeed. IIRC you are not a fan of the tier system, but I think that the classes that are usually in tier 3 usually seems to have just the right amount of options for my taste. How many of your classes would you say are Tier 3 (ish)?

I absolutely love that you have made beguiler style caster classes, because I really really like the way the beguiler class works. .. both as a class and that it is 'tier 3'
Hmm? No, I believe in tiers, at least when the correct qualifiers are applied. I aim for T3, and I think I'm generally in the ballpark. Some may come in a bit lower or higher, but it should be a much tighter spread overall.



I am considering the following to raise warlock to tier 3:

Spell substitute:

Whenever you gain the deceive item class feature of the warlock, you also gain this class feature.
You can use this class feature a number of times per day equal to your warlock class level.

Spell substitute allows you to substitute any arcane or divine spell in a magic wand for any other arcane or divine spell of equal level.
Bad idea. Open-ended abilities are a bad idea in general, at least for 3.5. Even if you limit it to spells from the same list as the original, though, this is still incredibly, excessively versatile. With one wand of each level you're basically spontaneously casting from a "spells known" list consisting of "all spells." Warlock isn't really that far behind, honestly. The main thing he needs is more damage (without the Hellfire Warlock 3/Binder 1 dip tax) and... honestly, just a few more invocations known ought to do it. Allow full attacks with EB and add a second progression for blast shape/eldrich essence invocations and you're probably fine.


Hmm Tier 3 fighter...

What about...

Cleave mastery (cleave, Greater cleave and supreme cleave in one feat)
Deflect attacks (arrows, ranged magic attacks)
Aggro (attract a nr of enemies equal to your level, they must attack you)
Might need more...
Needs much, much more. The Fighter certainly could use some fancier and more unique class features, but ultimately it can fight-- what it needs is a way to do, well, anything other than whatever single damage/combat maneuver tactic you built around. The bare minimum is more skills; on top of that, for a simple fix, I'd say "combat maneuvers don't provoke AoOs, can be substituted for normal attacks, get a scaling bonus/ignore size bonuses, and have some sort of swift action follow-up," maybe a basic "each weapon attack deals an extra d6/3-4 levels," and a scaling bonus to physical skills-- that way at least you have some options, some reliable damage even if you don't have system expertise, and something to do out-of-combat.

[Seerow]

Just linking in a few of my projects; aimed at T3, never got any real official judgement on where they fall, but should be closer than their core counterparts.

Hexblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=323700)
Marshal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392716)
Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?230019-I-will-protect-those-who-cannot-protect-themselves-D-amp-D3-5)
Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?375449-The-Ranger-Revitalized)
Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?404406-The-Rogue-Revitalized)
Soulknife (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16069797)
Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?334362-The-Fighter-Revitalized) (because everyone has to have their own fighter fix)

[tsj]

@grod and seerow: very nice classes that will fit very nicely on the T3 list

@grod: sounds reasonable regarding warlock and fighter.
Good thing there is a lot of home brew that aims at those classes :-) I do think 3.5 needs some kind of ability to "draw aggro" though. .. in order to add a more melee/mundane/fighter type of battlefield control

[Seerow]

@grod and seerow: very nice classes that will fit very nicely on the T3 list

@grod: sounds reasonable regarding warlock and fighter.
Good thing there is a lot of home brew that aims at those classes :-) I do think 3.5 needs some kind of ability to "draw aggro" though. .. in order to add a more melee/mundane/fighter type of battlefield control

The best way for a mundane to "draw aggro" is simply being useful. Having the capability to meaningfully affect the battlefield (whether that be through being a major threat themselves, being great at buffing, or great at disrupting the enemy) will naturally cause them to draw the attention of enemies.

There may be a place for a feat/ability/baseline mechanic similar to Goad but more reliable... but I doubt it. At least I haven't seen one yet that I was really happy with. Stuff like Crusader's ability to make allies really hard to hit, or make it very hard for enemies to move away from him fit far better within the system and are just as effective.

[tsj]

@seerow: yes, I guess some of those abilities from the crusader could be made in to feats such that other melee oriented builds also could benefit from a little battle field control.

I also actually kind of like that 3.x does not mimic wow or similar too much so in that regard it works out good that crusader can provide something similar yet different.

[khadgar567]

for warlock I have eldritch harbinger (https://docs.google.com/document/d/12pjivfmKHlwiYZgGcfFMKWngMX8g75PGyuZUhN9nzEc/edit?usp=sharing) prc which pops the eldricth blast to 40d8( prc increases base damage dice )

[tsj]

for warlock I have eldritch harbinger (https://docs.google.com/document/d/12pjivfmKHlwiYZgGcfFMKWngMX8g75PGyuZUhN9nzEc/edit?usp=sharing) prc which pops the eldricth blast to 40d8( prc increases base damage dice )

I will be checking that out :-)

[Grod_The_Giant]

for warlock I have eldritch harbinger (https://docs.google.com/document/d/12pjivfmKHlwiYZgGcfFMKWngMX8g75PGyuZUhN9nzEc/edit?usp=sharing) prc which pops the eldricth blast to 40d8( prc increases base damage dice )
Did you link to an old draft by mistake? This looks somewhat incomplete-- you don't give more than bare bones notes about what the features are meant to do. . What's "strike of harbinger" talking about? Where's eldritch claw come in? Etc.

Even without that, it looks kind of too strong. Full BAB isn't that strong but also isn't really necessary, d10 is really high for a class that presumably is focused on magic, 40d8 is quite high damage, all in a rush mid-game, and... There's no cost to the class. It's full casting and even advances base class features, assuming that's what you meant harbinger knowledge to do.

[khadgar567]

Did you link to an old draft by mistake? This looks somewhat incomplete-- you don't give more than bare bones notes about what the features are meant to do. . What's "strike of harbinger" talking about? Where's eldritch claw come in? Etc.

Even without that, it looks kind of too strong. Full BAB isn't that strong but also isn't really necessary, d10 is really high for a class that presumably is focused on magic, 40d8 is quite high damage, all in a rush mid-game, and... There's no cost to the class. It's full casting and even advances base class features, assuming that's what you meant harbinger knowledge to do.
that may be draft but idea is there here is the new link (https://docs.google.com/document/d/12pjivfmKHlwiYZgGcfFMKWngMX8g75PGyuZUhN9nzEc/edit?usp=sharing) still in work in progress

[Grod_The_Giant]

that may be draft but idea is there here is the new link (https://docs.google.com/document/d/12pjivfmKHlwiYZgGcfFMKWngMX8g75PGyuZUhN9nzEc/edit?usp=sharing) still in work in progress
It's just at a stage where it's hard to evaluate, is all. You say it increases blast size, but do not include an ability which does so. You get wings. You get +2 levels of Warlock features and +5 levels of Warlock spells. You take less ability damage. You get "maneuver focus," whatever that is, and... I... guess that's some homebrew Tome of Battle disciplines?

[tsj]

Grod's paladin will be taking the place of the dawn blade as the new tier 3 paladin and dawn blade will instead be an alternative T3 class to the whole holy knight concept.

Grod's class also fixes the issue of how to interpret the paladins code.