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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Other Vote! What racial (paragon) class would you like to see? Take 2 (Voting has ended)



Zaydos
2016-08-23, 10:04 PM
https://media.giphy.com/media/l2JInQdBPv4NOwlG0/giphy.gif

Welcome one and all. After the modest success of the last round of voting for a racial class I have decided no, no that's not arrogant enough, needs to be more pretentious deigned to create a second round of it. However in my great no, no got to stay in character incomparable wisdom I have decided to bestow upon you further gifts of my beneficence. Get your foot back in the tail Fizzlewick! As such I open the stage for another round of voting on what paragon class to make. However I have come to the decision that things will be more interesting if I open the stage not first to voting but to suggestions. As such until Monday the 30th State the right date Illisworth he's a great wyrm they know their days of the week 29th this thread is not open to voting but to suggestions for what races will be voted upon. Everyone is welcome to suggest up to 2 races, although I retain the right to veto any that simply do not appeal to my magnificent and unparalleled self.

Once voting is opened it will proceed with each forumite being allowed to vote for up to 3 races, with but a singular vote per race, no triple voting for a race except gnome. With the top 3 races being the winners*. These races will have a 3 level racial paragon class made for them, if something gets enough votes and I have an interesting enough idea for it, it may also get a 20 (or 20 - RHD) level base class to go along with it. So come forth now with your suggestions. Of course I will start us off with my own little list of 'suggestions', as it seems to need clarification these will be up for voting irregardless. As a note, of course, there are things, races introduced as PC races first and foremost that were removed from the list as being things I'd rather leave up to you to suggest in my supreme arrogance The dragon is too arrogant to call himself arrogant, Illisworth, go for something more playful! psuedo-feline playfulness.


Adu'ja (Dragon #317) No idea what I'd give them, except +1 to 3 levels of druid casting (since druid is the one spellcasting class that loses enough class features to give them interesting stuff, it is extremely thematically appropriate, and they have that killer +2 LA already)
Aquatic Elf
Bhuka (Sandstorm) These will be hard.
Blue (Expanded Psionics Handbook) Would of course advance Psion some, not sure what else.
Bralani Eladrin
Changeling (Eberron Campaign Setting) I have notes somewhere on this one.
Duergar (if you vote for duergar include Psionic or Non-Psionic, while duergar will be tallied together regardless, I will go with which of the two gets more votes)
Dvati (Dragon Magazine Compendium) Get the ability to cast 2 spells in one round among other things.
Elan (Expanded Psionics Handbook)
Ghost
Goliath (Races of Stone) Improve Powerful Build so they are simply considered 1 size larger whenever beneficial, not sure what else. Melee.
Gravetouched Ghoul (Libris Mortis) Maybe give stench and paralysis affects elves, already made stench a feat, though, decisions decisions. Eating humanoids heals them?
Hadozee (Stormwrack) While true flight is tempting it takes away. Referencing Spelljammer is probably a poor idea. Hmm...
Hagspawn (Unapproachable East) I will not make Grendel. I will not make Grendel. I will not make Grendel.
Half-Celestial
Half-Ogre (Races of Destiny)
Jaebrin (MMV)
Kenku (MMIII)
Lich I.e. 3 level full caster PrC whose only requirement is you be a lich. Now the question is... do they get full casting for the levels or not...
Minotaur Hmm... Melee of course. Some things for using size against smaller foes. Some non-combat stuff as little 'ribbons' even if strong.
Mummy Something to build on Despair, and probably should look at Sandstorm
Neanderthal (Frostburn) Will have to look up their stats.
Pixie Bonus HP!
Poisondusk Lizardfolk (Monster Manual 3)
Rakshasa
Raptoran (Races of the Wild) Aerial superiority abilities. I don't really know, never liked raptorans.
Rogue Modron (what Dragon #354 calls Exiled Modron because... they changed the 2e terms around arbitrarily).
Spirit Folk (Oriental Adventures)
Succubus This one could be fun. Will be difficult.
Svirfneblin
Vampire
Warforged (Eberron Campaign Setting) I'd give a bonus body feat but feels weird to hand that out above 1st. I'd give increased construct traits but there's Warforged Juggernaut for that. Well ok improve their composite plating in a way that improves all but the 'doesn't have composite plating' feat (which gets something different somehow), and go from there.
Wild Elf
Yamabito (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?407053-Yamabito-%28New-human-subrace-natural-initiators%29) (because why not, vanity go!)
Yuan-ti Pureblood Charm Monster and Fear SLAs, Poison Bite, lots of deception abilities, possibly a full +3 casting with their RHD + LA since those kill their ability to play casters and going +3 levels of casting PLUS level appropriate class features might make the 1 level dip into casting worth it.


*Winners will get made, others may get made if the voting gets me thinking about how to make them and what would be fun to give them.

nonsi
2016-08-23, 11:48 PM
My candidates are Changeling and Goliath.
I don't remember ever seeing paragon classes for them and it feels like they have a lot of potential.

Btw, what kind of race does "Blue" stand for?

Vertharrad
2016-08-24, 12:21 AM
Minotaur and Succubus tickle my fancy.

Zaydos
2016-08-24, 12:26 AM
Apparently I need to clarify:

You do not need to suggest the ones already there, if there's something else you want to see considered for voting (say Goblins, Henngeyokai, or Warforged) suggest it. I had intended to remove Changeling and Goliath from that list but apparently I forgot to.

And blues are psionic goblins from Expanded Psionics Handbook.

ShiningStarling
2016-08-24, 01:40 AM
I would like to suggest Ghosts and Yuan-ti Purebloods :3

caledscratcher
2016-08-24, 01:58 AM
Would we be able to suggest races introduced in Pathfinder?

Zaydos
2016-08-24, 02:02 AM
I would like to suggest Ghosts and Yuan-ti Purebloods :3

They have now been added to the list.


Would we be able to suggest races introduced in Pathfinder?

No. I don't really do Pathfinder. I played it some, found the system to have all the same problems as 3.5 but just shuffled around and nothing was fixed that was worth learning the way they rejiggered the problems to use, do keep intending to backport Rogue and read up more on Akashic Mysteries and Occultist because they seem to have fixed some of the critical flaws in the design behind Incarnum and Binders respectively but I've never gotten around to it.

And unfortunately races are one of the biggest places where things changed drastically (maybe for the better but enough to have a whole different set of things to look out for when designing race specific options), plus 3 level Paragon Classes don't really sit well with PF's Favored Class rules.

khadgar567
2016-08-24, 02:13 AM
Minotaur and Succubus tickle my fancy.
agreed with succubus and for my second vote pixie

caledscratcher
2016-08-24, 02:16 AM
Yeah, that's fair. I'll request... Adu'ja (Dragon 317), and that's it for now.

Zaydos
2016-08-24, 02:29 AM
agreed with succubus and for my second vote pixie

As I already stated (and then clarified in the OP):


You do not need to suggest the ones already there, if there's something else you want to see considered for voting (say Goblins, Henngeyokai, or Warforged) suggest it.


Yeah, that's fair. I'll request... Adu'ja (Dragon 317), and that's it for now.

Ah 317 such cool new races. The OP gruuwar (small size, casting stats, hide bonus on top of small size hide bonus, mwahahahaha), the playable and almost interesting t'kel (hey at the time LA 0 PC race with claws was nice), the should have been living constructs but that wasn't a thing yet golmoids (also ouch that LA, throw on the benefits of living construct and it might be worth it, as is even without it they're not a strong race), and the 'hey these look pretty decent for +1 LA' playable ents Adu'ja with their +2 LA.

CinuzIta
2016-08-24, 02:39 AM
Mmh, let me see..I shall suggest Raptorans and Ghouls (I love them, but if Ghouls just don't tickle your imagination you can go Necropolitan as well!)

Zaydos
2016-08-24, 02:57 AM
Mmh, let me see..I shall suggest Raptorans and Ghouls (I love them, but if Ghouls just don't tickle your imagination you can go Necropolitan as well!)

Ghouls don't tickle my fancy beca... wait upon double checking I made ghoul racial substitution levels not racial paragon class. Question should it be Ghoul or Gravetouched Ghoul?

CinuzIta
2016-08-24, 03:27 AM
Ghouls don't tickle my fancy beca... wait upon double checking I made ghoul racial substitution levels not racial paragon class. Question should it be Ghoul or Gravetouched Ghoul?

I'd say simple Ghoul, but I wouldn't mind Gravetouched Ghouls as well! Whatever pleases you more, in the end you're the who's gonna do the job (if you're gonna do Ghouls, that is)!

Now, about those substitution levels... *goes searching*

Zaydos
2016-08-24, 03:35 AM
I'd say simple Ghoul, but I wouldn't mind Gravetouched Ghouls as well! Whatever pleases you more, in the end you're the who's gonna do the job (if you're gonna do Ghouls, that is)!

Now, about those substitution levels... *goes searching*

They're here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?447187-The-Hungry-Dead-New-Options-for-Player-Ghouls). The issue with ghoul is ghasts; I mean they're 3 ECL over ghouls and pretty much a ghoul paragon already. The only thing keeping them different is they lose 1 HD for LA. I might make one aimed for Gravetouched but applicable to non-gravetouched ghouls and ghasts as well. Which would make it a little underpowered on ghoul/ghast (Gravetouched Ghoul is just Ghoul with the RHD dropped, their claws upped a die size to the standard for medium creatures, and the LA EXACTLY THE SAME :smallconfused:). At which point I'd still be tempted to give them the stench but I shouldn't if it's applicable to ghasts...

Temotei
2016-08-24, 03:54 AM
Dvati. I understand if you turn this one down. :smalltongue:

CinuzIta
2016-08-24, 04:31 AM
They're here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?447187-The-Hungry-Dead-New-Options-for-Player-Ghouls). The issue with ghoul is ghasts; I mean they're 3 ECL over ghouls and pretty much a ghoul paragon already. The only thing keeping them different is they lose 1 HD for LA. I might make one aimed for Gravetouched but applicable to non-gravetouched ghouls and ghasts as well. Which would make it a little underpowered on ghoul/ghast (Gravetouched Ghoul is just Ghoul with the RHD dropped, their claws upped a die size to the standard for medium creatures, and the LA EXACTLY THE SAME :smallconfused:). At which point I'd still be tempted to give them the stench but I shouldn't if it's applicable to ghasts...

Then go with the Gravetouched Ghouls:)

Your Ghouls' material is amazing anyway! The intro is also very interesting!

Clockwork333
2016-08-24, 08:58 AM
BLUES!

I know nothing about them, I just want to see psionic goblins, or goblins in general. The world needs more goblins.

Which world you ask?

ALL OF THE WORLDS.

Zaydos
2016-08-24, 01:55 PM
Dvati. I understand if you turn this one down. :smalltongue:

Dvati is one of the ones I contemplated putting up myself but decided to see if people would suggest it. There has thus far only been one thing actually suggested I considered vetoing. Oh and added.


Then go with the Gravetouched Ghouls:)

Your Ghouls' material is amazing anyway! The intro is also very interesting!

Gravetouched it is.


BLUES!

I know nothing about them, I just want to see psionic goblins, or goblins in general. The world needs more goblins.

Which world you ask?

ALL OF THE WORLDS.

Once again if it's already on the list you do not need to suggest it, and can suggest something else if you'd like, such as Amitok, Bakemono, Bhuka, Bugbear, Dekanter Goblin, Forestkith Goblin, Goblin, Goblyn, Grodd Goblin, Koalinth, Nilbogs (ok this I know I'd veto), Norker, Snow Goblin, Thoul, Varag, or Vril.

I mean some of those I'd veto, and others you'd have to list where I can find 3.5 stats which list LA (Bakemono is OA, if it has LA it's in the 3.5 update from Dragon Magazine in issue... Ninjas, Pirates, and Dinosaurs; Bhuka is Sandstorm; Dekanter Goblin is Monsters of Faerun and I don't know if they ever got LA so would probably be veto'd; Forestkith is MMIII; Goblyn I want to say is Dragon Mag but can't remember which; Norker is I think the same Dragon Mag as Goblyn, idk for the rest).

VoodooPaladin
2016-08-24, 04:37 PM
Oh man, you like Bhuka too? Totally gonna suggest them, and also the Painted Elves, from the same book.

Zaydos
2016-08-24, 05:10 PM
Oh man, you like Bhuka too? Totally gonna suggest them, and also the Painted Elves, from the same book.

I'd not use like more vaguely remember that they exist and copy-pasted the list of D&D goblinoids from Wikipedia. That said I'll add bhuka, but painted elves feels too much just 'elf'. That said high elf's Int/Wizard focus really doesn't fit wild elves (which painted elves are a variation on), but I'd rather make Wild Elf (possibly with an ACF for Painted Elf) than Painted Elf as Painted Elf is just (according to the website I checked because sandstorm was too much difficulty to dig up from where I stowed it on short notice) a cultural specialization on Wild Elf.

Edit If you do want me to add Wild Elf let me know.

St.Just
2016-08-24, 05:17 PM
Since you mentioned them, put me down for Warforged.

VoodooPaladin
2016-08-24, 05:34 PM
painted elves feels too much just 'elf'

Ha! Figured I'd get the first veto with that one. Yeah, Wild Elves will do just fine. Beats my second pick by a mile, more like to see use, too.

Temotei
2016-08-24, 11:49 PM
Oh, and for my second suggestion, hadozee (Stormwrack).

Recalcitrent
2016-08-24, 11:55 PM
The only suggestion I have is the only true choice, and I believe most would agree with me. In fact, I'm surprised its not on the list already. I vote for Neanderthal!

Zaydos
2016-08-25, 12:16 AM
The only suggestion I have is the only true choice, and I believe most would agree with me. In fact, I'm surprised its not on the list already. I vote for Neanderthal!

Well I wanted someone to suggest it; only reason Changeling and Goliath were on was because I forgot to take them off when I took off Hengeyokai, Warforged, and Illumians (only thing originally presented as a PC race that was intentionally left on the original list was Spirit Folk arguably Rogue Modron and Yamabito). Actually I suspect I left them on to say 'things that are intended as races are ok'.

Was mostly trying to show a variety of things to get people thinking about really out there and fun races like Adu'ja (2 LA :smallfrown:), Dvati, and Yuan-ti Pureblood (not really PC material but) and not just go through the books that presented races. Not that I have a problem with the latter, just I assumed they're the most likely to get suggested (and win in the end) so I'd see which of those people would suggest, and which would be forgotten.

So far we've got... Bhuka, Hadozee, Neanderthal, Raptoran, Warforged, and Painted Wild Elf. I was guessing Raptoran and Warforged as almost certain, with Bhuka and Neanderthal being likely. Hadozee surprised me.

VoodooPaladin
2016-08-25, 12:23 AM
Painted Wild Elf.

The justification being, of course, that the former is just the latter with a different coat of paint.

...I'll see myself out.

Vertharrad
2016-08-25, 12:22 PM
How about Eladrin?

Zaydos
2016-08-25, 12:32 PM
How about Eladrin?

Which Eladrin? I mean there are 6 different 3.5 eladrin of these... while all but ghaele have listed ECL only Bralani (RHD 6, LA 5), and Coure (RHD 2, LA 5) have ECL below 18. Though if it wasn't for tulani having only +10 LA I'd almost suspect the writers forgot you were supposed to include HD (Coure gets at-will incorporealness which is worth a lot of LA and is in general a game wrecker).

On that note I'd veto Coure, so...

I'll go add bralani.

paddyfool
2016-08-25, 12:55 PM
Elan and Duergar.

GnomishPride
2016-08-25, 04:51 PM
Smurfeblin? Snervbelin? Snerfelbin? Deep Gnomes.
And for my other suggestion... let's go with Kobolds.

Zaydos
2016-08-25, 05:04 PM
I'm going to say no to kobolds; what elements from the web enhancement (if any) are allowed (it says not to allow them all even if that doesn't stop kobold fans from assuming all are always in play) make far too much of a difference in the race's abilities to meaningfully create anything for them.

Plus I hate what happened with them starting with Races of the Dragon.

St.Just
2016-08-25, 06:28 PM
Since people are already suggesting some pretty high-powered races, may I put forward the Rakshasa and/or one of the Formians (probably Taskmaster)?

Zaydos
2016-08-25, 06:54 PM
Since people are already suggesting some pretty high-powered races, may I put forward the Rakshasa and/or one of the Formians (probably Taskmaster)?

Encouraging things like this is why Succubus was one of the things that started on the list. That said while Rakshasa will be added, none of the core formians have LA. If you know an official source for their LA, or an official formian with LA I will look at them with it, but without that I'm going to have to say no (in general LA - or ECL greater than 17 means no).

PapaQuackers
2016-08-25, 10:32 PM
I'll take Ghost please on the condition that at least one of the racial abilities at least be tentatively named "Spooky Ghosties" or the equally acceptable, "Boo".

Zaydos
2016-08-25, 10:35 PM
I'll take Ghost please on the condition that at least one of the racial abilities at least be tentatively named "Spooky Ghosties" or the equally acceptable, "Boo".

Actual voting doesn't open till the 29th, for now we're just getting the things people want to vote for. Plus you'll get 3 votes this round so you could vote for Ghost and... I don't know Gravetouched Ghoul.

You could suggest some other form of undead so that people could try and push the Undead Triumvirate ticket. Don't suggest necropolitan. I will veto it on the basis of finding them just extremely boring and detracting from world-building.

Vertharrad
2016-08-25, 10:36 PM
Which Eladrin? I mean there are 6 different 3.5 eladrin of these... while all but ghaele have listed ECL only Bralani (RHD 6, LA 5), and Coure (RHD 2, LA 5) have ECL below 18. Though if it wasn't for tulani having only +10 LA I'd almost suspect the writers forgot you were supposed to include HD (Coure gets at-will incorporealness which is worth a lot of LA and is in general a game wrecker).

On that note I'd veto Coure, so...

I'll go add bralani.

I'm partial to Ghaele...but I was thinking as a general like elf paragon can sub in for wild, wood elf, etc. I was considering just the two Eladrin from the MM1.

Zaydos
2016-08-25, 10:48 PM
I'm partial to Ghaele...but I was thinking as a general like elf paragon can sub in for wild, wood elf, etc. I was considering just the two Eladrin from the MM1.

Ghaele eladrin is the first good aligned outsider I ever saw (Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II) and remains a very special creature to me. The problem with subbing it in is... actually the official ones addressed this. Drows got their own paragon because they had sufficiently different racial traits and LA. Unearthed Arcana didn't stress it, but Elf Paragon is designed (and 'balanced') as Lv 2-4 with Lv 1 Wizard first; ultimately its 1 level of casting vs +2 Int... and some fluff bennies. Drow Paragon gets bigger bennies because its balanced as being Lv 4-6 (and it still gets that trade). With eladrin... Coure sets the benefits as needing to be appropriate at 6th to 8th level (roughly equivalent to 3rd-4th level spells and lesser invocations), Bralani needs them to be relevant at 11th, and going back to Savage Species which gave an LA for the 3.0 mostly unchanged Ghaele at +10 needs to be relevant at 21st level. While Coure and Bralani might be possible, massively varying starting ECL makes the one-size fits all model fail.

Not to mention that due to its design Elf Paragon is worthless for Wild and Wood Elves (it improves wizard casting and negates Int penalty which... makes you almost as good of a caster as if you went high elf wizard) meaning that despite being allowed for 1 size fits all it fails to function as such.

Draconium
2016-08-25, 11:08 PM
You could suggest some other form of undead so that people could try and push the Undead Triumvirate ticket.

How about, I dunno, a lich paragon? Or a mummy paragon. That could be fun.

Zaydos
2016-08-25, 11:18 PM
How about, I dunno, a lich paragon? Or a mummy paragon. That could be fun.

My kneejerk was to ban lich as 'why would you take it instead of 3 levels of [full caster]' but actually it should be doable, either as minor benefits you get instead of 3 levels of full-casting PrC, or larger benefits you get instead of a caster level.

My kneejerk on mummy was 'eww +5 LA and 13 ECL' followed by 'oh wait, passive save or be helpless for 1d4 rounds'. I mean you still have only +4 BAB at 13th level and the whopping +14 Strength doesn't make up the lost attacks (net you only have 3 worse attack bonus than a half-orc warrior).

So yeah both added. But now there are 4 undead, the triumvirate will be divided and in-fighting will tear the supporters of the undead apart :belkar:

PapaQuackers
2016-08-25, 11:20 PM
Death Knight
Wraith
Vampire


An anthropomorphic penguin creature called a Penguin Knight that follows the code of Shivery. He would definitely have an Ice Sword and use a pseudo spell casting system with spell like abilities based on ice.

dragonjek
2016-08-25, 11:43 PM
Spirit Folk and Jaebrin (MM5)

Zaydos
2016-08-25, 11:50 PM
Death Knight
Wraith
Vampire


An anthropomorphic penguin creature called a Penguin Knight that follows the code of Shivery. He would definitely have an Ice Sword and use a pseudo spell casting system with spell like abilities based on ice.

Suggestions are supposed to be 2, but since only one of those 4 has LA (and I've been reading Ravenloft and actually intend to run it, potentially with homebrew from this not contest's predecessor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498524-Red-Hand-of-Doom-and-or-Expedition-to-Castle-Ravenloft-with-Homebrew-Playtesting&p=21140048#post21140048)) I will add vampire.


Spirit Folk and Jaebrin (MM5)

Spirit Folk is already on so if you want to suggest something to replace it you can (Jaebrin will be added).

dragonjek
2016-08-26, 09:05 PM
Spirit Folk is already on so if you want to suggest something to replace it you can (Jaebrin will be added).
Whoops, missed that.

Hm...

How about the Hagspawn from Unapproachable East? Lots of untapped potential there.

Zaydos
2016-08-26, 11:00 PM
Whoops, missed that.

Hm...

How about the Hagspawn from Unapproachable East? Lots of untapped potential there.

Added but be forewarned I may fail to overcome the temptation to give them Damage Reduction X/natural weapon. For it was no manufactured weapon that defeated Grendel but Beowulf's own hands!

dragonjek
2016-08-26, 11:05 PM
Added but be forewarned I may fail to overcome the temptation to give them Damage Reduction X/natural weapon. For it was no manufactured weapon that defeated Grendel but Beowulf's own hands!

"Hand to hand is how it shall be, a life and death fight against the fiend!"

St.Just
2016-08-27, 12:06 AM
Encouraging things like this is why Succubus was one of the things that started on the list. That said while Rakshasa will be added, none of the core formians have LA. If you know an official source for their LA, or an official formian with LA I will look at them with it, but without that I'm going to have to say no (in general LA - or ECL greater than 17 means no).

Alright, makes sense.

For my actual second suggestion then...Dry Lich is tempting, if we're doing templates (have to give those dedicated Walkers in the Waste something to take for their last levels).

Zaydos
2016-08-27, 12:26 AM
I'm going to veto dry lich on account of 1) the whole +5 LA but only accessible via a PrC which may or may not give you the LA and puts min level at 16th or 21st level and the RAI being inscrutable (you can only become it via PrC so why does it have listed LA??? Unless you get the LA at the end of the PrC which is horrible game design and almost no one would allow it that way). 2) The whole you have to take a PrC to get the class; I almost veto'd lich on account of having to be a specific character archetype (12th level caster) to get the race (vamp any 5th+ level person can become so is more palatable), dry lich paragon would just be Walker of the Wastes 11-13 which wouldn't really be a racial paragon class. 3) I just don't find them particularly interesting and lich or mummy would be so much more fun to make.

tsj
2016-08-27, 02:46 PM
@zaydos:

Half-ogre and minotaur :-)

A little off topic, how many of your existing classes would you say are tier 3?

Zaydos
2016-08-27, 03:54 PM
@zaydos:

Half-ogre and minotaur :-)

A little off topic, how many of your existing classes would you say are tier 3?

Still in the suggestion phase till Monday; if you don't want to suggest anything new to add to the list, wait till Monday and then vote for Half-Ogre, Minotaur, and at your leisure one more :smallwink:

On the other, well I linked to my recruitment thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498524-Red-Hand-of-Doom-and-or-Expedition-to-Castle-Ravenloft-with-Homebrew-Playtesting&p=21140048#post21140048) for trying to figure out just that question so I sort of broached the topic myself already, though I'd prefer to continue this topic in the (open) thread about modules useful to playtesting homebrew classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?497911-Homebrew-Playtesting-Module-(suggestions-and-the-like)).

That said the quick answer is less than I'd like, the longer answer requires questions as to the tier list, ToB's place on it (Warblade fits the definition of tier 4 better than Warlock, and Warlock solidly fills Tier 3 with Hellfire or Eldritch Glaive to give it the damage boost; this is important, though, because ToB is one of the big balancing points I use in class design), is the tier list supposed to be defined by its listed definitions (Tier 3 Strong in Specialty and Able to Contribute to Various Others, Tier 4 Strong in Specialty or Able to Contribute to Various Encounters, etc) or just as power hierarchy (what it actually is, but people switch to the other when they want to say that winning all combat not specifically designed to stop you is automatically only tier 4 because all it can do is win combats, even though that's the definition of tier 2) and other things but...

Daggerstrike Adept: Able to keep up with Warblade in melee at 5th level (only level I've actually tested it at multiple times) and able to keep up or more with Warblade out of combat. I'd say they're the same tier as Warblade, but I'd actually argue that Warblade is tier 4 (as they only function against melee-able encounters) and not tier 3 (as they are not able to contribute meaningfully outside of their specialty, Crusader and Swordsage get abilities which allow them to, even if Warblade may be stronger than Swordsage).

Wildwood Knight: Comparable to Warblade/Crusader. Able to contribute in a few more types of encounters than Warblade. If Warblade is tier 3 they should be, if Warblade is not then they still might be.

Scholar: After redux idk. Before I could have safely said Tier 4 but lower than Rogue (which is arguably Tier 3 in that it fits Tier 3's definition, and is stated to only be tier 4 because it's demonstrably worse than Factotum). After redux it might be Tier 3, might be Tier 4.

Awakened Champion: Pre-Redux it mattered on what level they were built, and they swung from MAD rendering them Tier 5 to maybe Tier 3. Redux... I haven't tested, aim is Tier 3. They shouldn't be Tier 2, but they might just be brokenly better than Tier 3s without being able to play on the field Tier 2 can if they choose. They should be able to play down to Tier 3 (or lower) with less than optimal choices for past life stuff. Probably don't beat out Beguiler/Dread Necro (which have the potential to blow other tier 3s out of the water) at their best but are more directly comparable to the lower Tier 3s.

Countermage: Aimed at tier 3. Might be tier 4. In their niche (anti-spells/SLAs) they're possibly the very best at it, but they don't have automatic success at shutting down casters even then and against things that are not casters first and foremost (most monsters), or groups they have massive gaps in their armor and I'd guess them at weaker than Beguiler/DN, and potentially really weak depending upon campaign and DM (you run a bunch of casters they're stronger, you run dragons they have uses but aren't going to be the strongest, you run the tarrasque well a lot of things are better than them). Unlike Beguiler or DN where you have to shoot at weaknesses (Intelligent Undead/Constructs and Constructs respectively) to shut them down a power level or two, you just have to not play to their strengths, that said they should still be able to contribute and Beguiler/DN are the top dogs of Tier 3 and 'Tier 3 but not as good as Beguiler/DN' describes most of Tier 3.

Argent Blade: Worse in combat than Warblade, but much more out of combat versatility. Should be solidly Tier 3.

Morphic Claw: I disown you. I mean... Tier 4 or Tier 5 when I've tested it; ended up being close to 2-Weapon swordsage against melee opponents, but too dependent upon Full Attack even compared to 2-Weapon swordsage, and less capable out of combat and worse at a range somehow. This was level 5, however so could change by 15th.

Runebound Knight: Aimed at tier 3. Can't say more.

Luck Blessed: Aimed at tier 4, created when away from books and working out at the gym so.

Dragon Knight: Aimed at tier 4 (paladin with small plus). May be tier 3, or broken, due to being better at sheer dpr than intended.

Dragon Chorister: ??? I don't understand this class at all. I'd have to see it in play.

Kyodai: Theoretically aimed at tier 3. Made during a sick haze.

Courtier: Aimed at tier 3. Experience places it at subpar in combat, but contributing via +4 to top melee's attack/damage, and really good in its specialty (talking to people), so probably tier 3.

Incarnation: Aimed at tier 2.

Werewolf: MorphBark placed as tier 4. I might argue that they are better than that due to defenses that make them hard for monsters to get around (harder than warblade for example) and the ability to do more non-combat things, but really I'd say that defensive fighting is a worse strategy and thus they fall down to high tier 4 at best, and maybe mid/low tier 4.

Dream Crafter: Aimed at tier 2. Might be able to hit tier 1.

Jinnblood: Aimed at warlock + 1 tier; MorphBark placed as tier 2 which at (16th-)20th level they definitely are as long as you aren't comparing them to (chain) Gate and Shapechange. Honestly I'd say probably tier 2, I mean they start off close to warlock in power and don't get significantly stronger till 11th really, but warlock really should be tier 3 and they have a built in ability to deal relevant damage (which is the only thing keeping warlock from being indisputably tier 3).

Tall Tale: I've had a lot of people tell me they played it and it was balanced. I aimed it mostly at tier 3, with a massive power ceiling/floor divide, but with it rather easy to at least contribute.

Vestige Priest: Aimed at tier 1 :smalleek:.

Jedi: Aimed at tier 3, can't be sure if it hit.

Intoxicanter: Aimed at tier 4, made it in less than 2 hours and I think I missed the mark badly. Thing is a joke, though.

Animator: Aimed at tier 3 summoner that doesn't completely obsolete martial characters (like PF's), no idea if I succeeded.

Doomsayer: Aimed at tier 2. Might just be broken. Need to redo the Least Healing invocation as it was OP.

Dragonsoul Acolyte: Aimed at tier 3. No idea if it succeeded.

Wonder: Should be impossible not to be tier 1. Should still not actually be stronger than a wizard with Spell Compendium in play. Specifically should not be allowed otherwise.

Theurge: Aimed at tier 1-2. Might have failed.

Simic Biomancer: Aimed at tier 2. Needs early game nerfing, may fail at reaching tier 2 late game.

Simic Initiate: Aimed at tier 4 (non-initiating) or tier 3 (initiating). No idea if it made it might be down a tier in both cases, or tier 3 (non-initiating) and broken (initiating) or something else entirely.

Fiendpact Medium: I made this during a flu and was talking about making it several weeks later and discovered I already had. I literally can only barely (and unreliably) remember making it. I think it was intended as tier 3, but I have no idea of the success therein.

Princess: Aimed at tier 3. Is just such a massive game changer/needs such a specific type of game that I have no idea how it works in play (and tend to disallow it).

Paragon: Aimed at tier 3, was slapped together quick and never tested (even just mathematically which doesn't work for casters anyway).

Gnostic: Aimed at tier 3, never tested because I don't like the concept that much and it was just for a contest.

Whisper: It does Stealth extremely well, but nothing else particularly well. Tier 4, could possibly be tier 3 but testing didn't show it.

Freelancer: Mwahahahahahah mahahahaha ufufufufu... I have no idea. In theory the aim was tier 3, but I honestly think as designed Bound-lancer is a better fit in games, or Freelancer might work better in an all Freelancer game. That said MADness is real and might actually make it tier 3 (or 4 for all I know), that was the intent but my mind goes to SAD stat maxes so often that I don't know, someone is hopefully going to be helping me test it soon.

Fury Medium: Aimed at tier 3.

Form Shifter: Aimed at high tier 3/low tier 2 (Beguiler/DN).

Moonborn: Aimed at tier 4.

Elvish Exemplar: Aimed at high tier 3/low tier 2 (Beguiler/DN). Pretty much just better than Duskblade (low tier 3).

Goetic Knight: Aimed at tier 3. Not actually finished, though theoretically playable.

Contractor: Aimed at high tier 3/low tier 2 (Beguiler/DN). Should be a little stronger than Binder, though Zceryll would make them tier 2 just like with Binder, but that's just because Zceryll is brokenly powerful.

Aasimar Ascendant: Theoretically aimed at tier 3. I suspect it's tier 4 or 5, or broken.

Gnomish Gnight: Theoretically aimed at tier 3. Not strictly better than Duskblade, but Animal Companion means probably better in combat and their spell list is better suited for out of combat so should be more firmly tier 3 than Duskblade. Balance point was actually closer to Bard which is at the top of tier 3 (Bard is arguably stronger than Beguiler/DN but less likely to actually make encounters have to be designed about negating them, and less likely to be noticed as being that strong).

Glyph Knight: Current Base Class Challenge entry, going to probably have to nerf Provocation Rune to -1 without essentia. Have someone on line to test it. Aimed at Tier 3. Shouldn't be less than Warblade at floor, might be broken though.

The current Racial Paragon Classes I've made are all aimed at Tier 3 (I'd guess the originals were balanced at Tier 5, unless giving +2 CL and +2 to casting stat in which case they were aimed at 'is +2 Int worth 1 level of wizard casting?') but untested and really hard to actually test (they're more like PrCs than Base Classes as far as tiers are concerned). I mean what does Dragonblood Paragon Synergise best with? What is an 'average' use.

So ideal would be all tier 2 or tier 3 (even the ones I aimed at tier 4 would ideally be tier 3), but in practice I probably missed the mark a fair bit.

AtlasSniperman
2016-08-27, 09:04 PM
I am commenting.
This means I am suggesting Kenku and Hobgoblin.

This should be a surprise to no-one.
Out.

Zaydos
2016-08-27, 11:11 PM
I am commenting.
This means I am suggesting Kenku and Hobgoblin.

This should be a surprise to no-one.
Out.

I am veto-ing Hobgoblins (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498160-Hobgoblin-Paragon-(3-level-Paragon-Class)). Because I hate them with a burning passion, and why would anyone ever actually be willing to make a hobgoblin paragon class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498160-Hobgoblin-Paragon-(3-level-Paragon-Class))? Why would anyone even use them as monsters?

Or maybe it's because I made a hobgoblin paragon class already because hobgoblins are my favorite goblinoid. The world will never know. Unless it already does.

AtlasSniperman
2016-08-27, 11:34 PM
I am veto-ing Hobgoblins (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498160-Hobgoblin-Paragon-(3-level-Paragon-Class)). Because I hate them with a burning passion, and why would anyone ever actually be willing to make a hobgoblin paragon class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?498160-Hobgoblin-Paragon-(3-level-Paragon-Class))? Why would anyone even use them as monsters?

Or maybe it's because I made a hobgoblin paragon class already because hobgoblins are my favorite goblinoid. The world will never know. Unless it already does.

Fair cop mate. If you need ideas for a Kenku paragon class, I'm full of them. I'm just not particularly skilled with balance and wording, hence not making it myself XD

tsj
2016-08-28, 12:56 AM
@zaydos:
Ok :-)
And I see there are a lot of really cool classes that I can add to the tier 3 list :-)
I look forward to reading the paragon classes when they are done :-)

St.Just
2016-08-28, 09:24 PM
I'm going to veto dry lich on account of 1) the whole +5 LA but only accessible via a PrC which may or may not give you the LA and puts min level at 16th or 21st level and the RAI being inscrutable (you can only become it via PrC so why does it have listed LA??? Unless you get the LA at the end of the PrC which is horrible game design and almost no one would allow it that way). 2) The whole you have to take a PrC to get the class; I almost veto'd lich on account of having to be a specific character archetype (12th level caster) to get the race (vamp any 5th+ level person can become so is more palatable), dry lich paragon would just be Walker of the Wastes 11-13 which wouldn't really be a racial paragon class. 3) I just don't find them particularly interesting and lich or mummy would be so much more fun to make.

Alright, fair point. Last try then, Half Celestial?

Zaydos
2016-08-28, 11:44 PM
As it is now past midnight, and thus Monday, in my time zone (and suggestions have slowed) I announce


FULL VOTING IS OPEN!!!!!

This means the OP's list is now finalized. Nothing more will be added to it. So each and everyone of you (or anyone else who cares to join in) may now vote for not 1, not 2, but 3 of the races below. Come Sunday the votes will be tallied and the top 3 races will get Paragon Classes. Only votes from this point onward will be counted. And note: you may not vote for the same race more than once*, don't try to be cute and find a way around this. So yes, vote away! The options are the list below which you have already helped to shape. Some with things I hoped to see (Dvati, Kenku, Rakshasa, Warforged), some with things I never expected (Adu'ja, Hagspawn, Yuan'ti Pure bloods), some with things I'd rather not have seen (not saying what :smalltongue:), and yeah some things I'd hoped for were lacking (Goblin, Hengeyokai, Illumian) but that was to be expected.

*Well ok you probably could just by waiting till the next page of the thread, but that would be downright and blatant voting fraud.

Adu'ja (Dragon #317) No idea what I'd give them, except +1 to 3 levels of druid casting (since druid is the one spellcasting class that loses enough class features to give them interesting stuff, it is extremely thematically appropriate, and they have that killer +2 LA already)
Aquatic Elf
Bhuka (Sandstorm) These will be hard.
Blue (Expanded Psionics Handbook) Would of course advance Psion some, not sure what else.
Bralani Eladrin
Changeling (Eberron Campaign Setting) I have notes somewhere on this one.
Duergar (if you vote for duergar include Psionic or Non-Psionic, while duergar will be tallied together regardless, I will go with which of the two gets more votes)
Dvati (Dragon Magazine Compendium) Get the ability to cast 2 spells in one round among other things.
Elan (Expanded Psionics Handbook)
Ghost
Goliath (Races of Stone) Improve Powerful Build so they are simply considered 1 size larger whenever beneficial, not sure what else. Melee.
Gravetouched Ghoul (Libris Mortis) Maybe give stench and paralysis affects elves, already made stench a feat, though, decisions decisions. Eating humanoids heals them?
Hadozee (Stormwrack) While true flight is tempting it takes away. Referencing Spelljammer is probably a poor idea. Hmm...
Hagspawn (Unapproachable East) I will not make Grendel. I will not make Grendel. I will not make Grendel.
Half-Celestial
Half-Ogre (Races of Destiny)
Jaebrin (MMV)
Kenku (MMIII)
Lich I.e. 3 level full caster PrC whose only requirement is you be a lich. Now the question is... do they get full casting for the levels or not...
Minotaur Hmm... Melee of course. Some things for using size against smaller foes. Some non-combat stuff as little 'ribbons' even if strong.
Mummy Something to build on Despair, and probably should look at Sandstorm
Neanderthal (Frostburn) Will have to look up their stats.
Pixie Bonus HP!
Poisondusk Lizardfolk (Monster Manual 3)
Rakshasa
Raptoran (Races of the Wild) Aerial superiority abilities. I don't really know, never liked raptorans.
Rogue Modron (what Dragon #354 calls Exiled Modron because... they changed the 2e terms around arbitrarily).
Spirit Folk (Oriental Adventures)
Succubus This one could be fun. Will be difficult.
Svirfneblin
Vampire
Warforged (Eberron Campaign Setting) I'd give a bonus body feat but feels weird to hand that out above 1st. I'd give increased construct traits but there's Warforged Juggernaut for that. Well ok improve their composite plating in a way that improves all but the 'doesn't have composite plating' feat (which gets something different somehow), and go from there.
Wild Elf
Yamabito (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?407053-Yamabito-%28New-human-subrace-natural-initiators%29) (because why not, vanity go!)
Yuan-ti Pureblood Charm Monster and Fear SLAs, Poison Bite, lots of deception abilities, possibly a full +3 casting with their RHD + LA since those kill their ability to play casters and going +3 levels of casting PLUS level appropriate class features might make the 1 level dip into casting worth it.



Alright, fair point. Last try then, Half Celestial?

Added.

khadgar567
2016-08-29, 12:41 AM
My votes are succubus, pixie and vampire

Draconium
2016-08-29, 12:51 AM
My first vote shall go to the Dvati. I honestly really like the concept behind them, and it upsets me to no end that they have such poorly written mechanics. I think they deserve some love.

My second vote shall be for our "shifty" friend, the Changeling. Another interesting race, but this one with much better mechanics. I can already see a few possibilities of where the class could go.

My third and final vote shall be for the Mummy. Primarily because I feel like I should actually vote for a race I suggested, but also because I rather like Mummies, in terms of undead races.

Zaydos
2016-08-29, 01:29 AM
With 2 sets of votes in we have (surprise, surprise) a 6 way tie!

Succubus 1. Some 13th-15th level appropriate Cha to things, bonuses to Cha based stuff when dealing with humanoids and outsiders, possibly the ability to deal Wisdom damage just by talking to/being pretty at, and the ability to reliably summon vrocks. May or may not get casting improvements will improve CL for slas.
Vampire 1. Bite attack that inflicts blood drain! I will have to think more on the balance and issues of Vampire's CR-ECL disparity, though I'm making this player material first so it might just end up with a 'handle with care' note for DMs (as abilities will be balanced for... 14th-16th level characters, not CR 8-10).
Pixie 1. Probably gets bonus HP at 1st level to improve survivability at 1st level of pixie, probably get some new SLAs including Shadow Evocation/Conjuration (not checking books yet, so levels might be off).
Dvati 1. I'd have to really crack the books for a quick once over, but possibly a way around the 'casting a spell takes both dvati's actions' just because it annoys me and if they're losing another caster level they could lose that to allow gish-fulness at least. Just brainstorming here.
Changeling 1. Class in notes is not worth losing 2 levels of beguiler casting for so will have to scrap notes. Do think I'll keep the 10 + Int skill points, though might drop it to 9 + Int with 2 skill points/level which they can reassign either daily or more likely with something like 10 minutes/1 hour of concentration. Fluidity.
Mummy 1. BAB +4, but +14 Str so still theoretically serviceable in melee if they can make up for the attacks per round disadvantage. Still Despair and Mummy Rot are their big abilities, so definitely going to give them things that somehow build upon those. Probably something to increase the DC of the CL check to cure Mummy Rot, make it so that 'curing' it with magic simply makes it capable of being cured normally, and either increase the damage from Mummy Rot, or reduce the incubation period (possibly both but don't want it to be 2d6 Cha and Con damage during combat with a save to prevent each round until you fail).

Also question for everyone:

I'm thinking that instead of just doing +1 level existing (insert spellcasting class here) I should do more like I did with Dragonblood Paragon and make it a choice between +1 level spellcasting or hopefully equivalent ability. Does that sound wise?

I mean Dvati and Changeling are the ones where they'd get the bigger non-casting abilities, and even if I do go that way I might ignore it completely on Succubus/Mummy since alright you're already down 12 caster levels giving you three levels that increase your sorcerer/cleric casting if you already have it won't do too much and won't necessarily make it enough to be worth taking the 1 level dip to get it in the first place (quite possibly yeah 4th level Sorcerer casting for 1 level is just a good deal). Though if I do that I'll have to note to drop their casting in gestalt games. Vampire and Pixie would get more minor abilities dropped each level than Dvati/Changeling would at each level they got casting (and vamp might get 3 out of 3 casting, though if they did bigger abilities would be dropped). Opinions?

tsj
2016-08-29, 01:41 AM
I like that option of either +1 spellcasting or some other option. .. that makes the prc more versatile

Are these prcs going to alter the tier of the class entering it or will it keep entering classes at the same tier? (I hope for the last since tier 3 classes then could use such a prc without leaving t3)

---

I vote pixie, vampire and succubus just like khadgar :-)

khadgar567
2016-08-29, 02:11 AM
With 2 sets of votes in we have (surprise, surprise) a 6 way tie!

Succubus 1. Some 13th-15th level appropriate Cha to things, bonuses to Cha based stuff when dealing with humanoids and outsiders, possibly the ability to deal Wisdom damage just by talking to/being pretty at, and the ability to reliably summon vrocks. May or may not get casting improvements will improve CL for slas.
Vampire 1. Bite attack that inflicts blood drain! I will have to think more on the balance and issues of Vampire's CR-ECL disparity, though I'm making this player material first so it might just end up with a 'handle with care' note for DMs (as abilities will be balanced for... 14th-16th level characters, not CR 8-10).
Pixie 1. Probably gets bonus HP at 1st level to improve survivability at 1st level of pixie, probably get some new SLAs including Shadow Evocation/Conjuration (not checking books yet, so levels might be off).
Dvati 1. I'd have to really crack the books for a quick once over, but possibly a way around the 'casting a spell takes both dvati's actions' just because it annoys me and if they're losing another caster level they could lose that to allow gish-fulness at least. Just brainstorming here.
Changeling 1. Class in notes is not worth losing 2 levels of beguiler casting for so will have to scrap notes. Do think I'll keep the 10 + Int skill points, though might drop it to 9 + Int with 2 skill points/level which they can reassign either daily or more likely with something like 10 minutes/1 hour of concentration. Fluidity.
Mummy 1. BAB +4, but +14 Str so still theoretically serviceable in melee if they can make up for the attacks per round disadvantage. Still Despair and Mummy Rot are their big abilities, so definitely going to give them things that somehow build upon those. Probably something to increase the DC of the CL check to cure Mummy Rot, make it so that 'curing' it with magic simply makes it capable of being cured normally, and either increase the damage from Mummy Rot, or reduce the incubation period (possibly both but don't want it to be 2d6 Cha and Con damage during combat with a save to prevent each round until you fail).

Also question for everyone:

I'm thinking that instead of just doing +1 level existing (insert spellcasting class here) I should do more like I did with Dragonblood Paragon and make it a choice between +1 level spellcasting or hopefully equivalent ability. Does that sound wise?

I mean Dvati and Changeling are the ones where they'd get the bigger non-casting abilities, and even if I do go that way I might ignore it completely on Succubus/Mummy since alright you're already down 12 caster levels giving you three levels that increase your sorcerer/cleric casting if you already have it won't do too much and won't necessarily make it enough to be worth taking the 1 level dip to get it in the first place (quite possibly yeah 4th level Sorcerer casting for 1 level is just a good deal). Though if I do that I'll have to note to drop their casting in gestalt games. Vampire and Pixie would get more minor abilities dropped each level than Dvati/Changeling would at each level they got casting (and vamp might get 3 out of 3 casting, though if they did bigger abilities would be dropped). Opinions?
for succubus direstirge drop them to cr2 recently so i appreciate if you build for with that info

Zaydos
2016-08-29, 02:13 AM
New Tally
Succubus 2. I've got nothin' to add at this moment, the tally updated too quick so I could respond to tier stuff.
Vampire 2. How strong is a natural weapon (i.e. bonus bad attack each round) which deals 1d6 Con damage? I mean the casting ones wouldn't get this for thematic reasons (it's a violent messy melee ability). Oh and definitely resistance (not immunity) to traditional vampire weaknesses (suffers a penalty to hit people holding them off with holy symbols, or for 1 round after entering an area strongly laced with garlic, and as long as they are within a house uninvited, may act freely in sunlight but takes round by round damage).
Pixie 2. Definitely thinking Shadow Conjuration once per day with ECL based use scaling (2 uses at ECL 11, 3 at 15, 4 at 19) or ECL based effect scaling (so eventually its 1/shades) or maybe some combination (so it becomes 2/day Greater Shadow Conjuration).
Dvati 1.
Changeling 1.
Mummy 1.


I like that option of either +1 spellcasting or some other option. .. that makes the prc more versatile

Are these prcs going to alter the tier of the class entering it or will it keep entering classes at the same tier? (I hope for the last since tier 3 classes then could use such a prc without leaving t3)

---

I vote pixie, vampire and succubus just like khadgar :-)

Hard to say, because what tier is a pixie? What tier is a succubus? What tier is a vampire? Is an ECL 13 Vampire Warblade 5 still a tier 3 character? Also seeing as how Racial Paragon Classes have 1 prereq (race) it's hard to say because abilities that are +0 tier on Warblade are +1 tier on Fighter... Sort of... Kind of... PrCs modifying tiers starts to give the tier system issues as a diagnostic tool. Intent is to roughly aim for somewhere from the Beguiler/Dread Necromancer power level to the Swordsage/Warblade power level if the casting option is not taken (theoretically the casting option will be balanced for 'it's worth losing a level of spellcasting' or in the case of LA +5 races 'umm you're already shooting yourself in the foot have a free benny') which would make it a buff for Monks and Fighters but not for Warblades... of course hitting that mark is going to be the trick.

That said for the high LA races (pixie, mummy, succubus, vampire) I am likely biased to assume they were balanced at roughly tier 5 (since that's what Savage Species did by balancing everything against fighter) and will probably give them additional things to help compensate somewhat for that (because 13 levels of fighter is kind of bad). The theoretical desired balance point is for a Succubus Paragon 3 (ECL 15) to be somewhere between Gray Elf Beguiler 14/Mindbender 1 and Dwarf/Human Warblade 15 in power level (and below Beguiler/Rainbow Servant {text over table} builds), but hitting that admittedly wide mark will be a challenge.

@khadgar:

Dire Stirge also explicitly balanced them against optimized wizards (i.e. their examples were all optimized wizards) and for LA that worked at Lv 20. The first is a balance point that blows 90% of classes out of the water, and the 2nd is a design philosophy that makes them OP at the minimum level (that said LA really should be lowered at higher levels because abilities that are game changers at 5th are useless at 20th, LA buyoff is... half functional, but that's because any general rule for this will be and hands on DM involvement is the best practical approach). So I cannot agree with the basic design philosophy (and therefore cannot build off of it). Also Dire Stirge went on the assumption that their energy drain and at-will Charm Monster with DCs 5 higher than 7th level spells' were useless in combat (they can use the former via grapple, arguably they can kiss you via grapple and start getting free suggestions to kiss them more with your saving throws being debuffed each time; the latter even with the +5 bonus on saves against due to being in combat is still an at-will save or be taken out o the fight with a DC comparable to that which wizards are slinging). Compare a Succubus with PC gear and elite array to a Lv 9 warlock. Yeah both can use Charm Monster at-will and fly, but one can only have one charmed victim at a time, the other can make it Supernatural and thus undispellable and has a save DC of ~30 (note that the highest Core monster Will save at CR 9 is +13). Sure the warlock might have the edge in DPR (5d6 vs hahaha lol nope*). Then again at 9th level the number of things immune to mind-affecting which you can't just teleport (or ethereal jaunt) around is also slim (Intelligent undead).

*By which I mean assuming you don't stat yourself for melee, if you do you deal approximately fighter damage (i.e. significantly more than 5d6) but are playing against your strengths.

CinuzIta
2016-08-29, 02:23 AM
I'm gonna vote for Gravetouched Ghoul, Ghost and Raptoran!

St.Just
2016-08-29, 02:50 AM
Lets go with Rakshasa (Been thinking about them a lot recently :smalltongue:), Elan (Because I've always love the aberrant little freaks) and Yuan-ti Pureblood (because snakes is cool).

AtlasSniperman
2016-08-29, 04:19 AM
Placing my votes on

Kenku
Kenku Neanderthal
Kenku Goliath

Zaydos
2016-08-29, 04:39 AM
New Tally
Pixie 2.
Succubus 2.
Vampire 2.
Changeling 1.
Dvati 1.
Elan 1.
Ghost 1.
Ghoul (Gravetouched) 1.
Kenku Goliath 1.
Kenku 1.
Mummy 1.
Kenku Neanderthal 1.
Rakshasa 1.
Raptoran 1.
Yuan-Ti Pureblood 1.

The leading trio stays in the lead, yet it's not a strong one yet. Lots of variety in what's not that far behind and who knows maybe one of 'em has a blue shell up their sleeve? Will we find out next time on Vote! What racial (paragon) class would you like to see? Find out with me... after this word from our sponsor King Nod of the Land of Sleep.

UrsusArctos
2016-08-29, 10:31 AM
Voting for Warforged and Goliath.

khadgar567
2016-08-29, 11:12 AM
Voting for Warforged and Goliath.
and what you need to vote 3 thing in the treat

ShiningStarling
2016-08-29, 12:48 PM
I vote for Changeling, Ghost, and Purebloods

nonsi
2016-08-29, 01:16 PM
Changeling
Goliath
Lich

Zaydos
2016-08-29, 01:46 PM
New Tally:

Changeling 3. Have to consider the ability to form a single pair of claws, or a bite attack. That said maybe not, but go with a +2 to a physical ability of choice that they can change, though really how much better than +2 to phys ability of choice is +2 to phys ability of choice that you can change?
Kenku Goliath 3. Reach. They will definitely get the ability to be considered large for all purposes where it's advantageous and not when otherwise. Including the ability to toggle their space between 5 by 5 and 10 by 10 as a free action each round (must have room to fit). Would have to glance over their culture again too.
Ghost 2.
Pixie 2.
Succubus 2.
Vampire 2.
Yuan-Ti Pureblood 2.
Dvati 1.
Elan 1.
Ghoul (Gravetouched) 1.
Kenku 1.
Lich 1.
Mummy 1.
Kenku Neanderthal 1.
Rakshasa 1.
Raptoran 1.
Warforged 1.

It seems like Goliath had that blue shell after all! As goliath and changelings, the bookies' favorites since the beginning, zip ahead we see some other contestants make their move. The unexpected yuan-ti snake racer slithers quickly to catch up with their three monstrous peers, and a boo seems to have attached itself to its by-Pelor-the-LA-on-this-template friend the Vampire*. Is this symbiosis or sabotage? Meanwhile Lich and Warforged finally get their starts. The warforged's God Wing is a legendary car with many fans, but will it carry it to victory in this red line? Is this not actually some sort of crazy Mario Kart esque wacky race? Is the announcer just mad? Will any of these questions be answered next time?

*Vampire's LA is due to the ability to create more vampires under your direct control which even at +8 LA is breakable, but which sends their LA skyrocketing. Though even without that they'd have a heft LA due to DR (+2 by SS guidelines), stats (+1), at-will dominate (+1 LA), bonus feats (+1 or 2 LA), nat armor (+2 LA), Fast Healing (+1 LA), Skill Bonuses (+1 or 2 LA), Energy Resistances (+1 LA), for +10 to +12; that said when you get to +10 or more LA things start being valued as less (because each level is worth more, natch), and without Create Spawn a vampire would probably be closer to LA +4 or +5 (as it is comparable to a lich, probably actually a little stronger so +5 or +6). Ghost's LA is due to incorporealness being that big of a thing and even compared to most tier 3s it's huge.

paddyfool
2016-08-29, 02:26 PM
I vote for Elan, Goliath and Rakshasa.

caledscratcher
2016-08-29, 02:38 PM
Pixie, Elan, Mummy!

Vertharrad
2016-08-29, 04:56 PM
Bralani Eladrin, Dvati, and Succubus.

I have loved the idea of the Ghaele since I first saw it and this might be unreasonable but it makes me biased in the other eladrin's case as well, I also liked the Bralani for it's own reasons.
The Dvati captured my attention almost immediately upon seeing it. It may not compare to the Eladrin, but it gives it a leg up over the last entry.
Who doesn't like the seductrous of demons? The beguiling Succubus.

VoodooPaladin
2016-08-29, 05:21 PM
Going with the spirit vote, with Bhuka, Rakshasa, and Spirit Folk.

Zaydos
2016-08-29, 06:01 PM
New Tally:

Kenku Goliath 4. I will seriously need to hit the books for this one. Probably no option of casting, or if it has the option Druid only.
Changeling 3.
Elan 3. I'll admit I am almost dreading this one. Not because I dislike elan, but because I already made the full blown PrC version of an Elan Paragon. Step one will probably be look at the Complete Psionics Elan feats and that. Definitely get +1 or +2 psion, and get bonus power points even if you don't pick up psion manifesting through it.
Succubus 3. Was thinking Cha to AC but 1 level Battledancer dip already gives you that, and it would create a potential for 20+ AC disparity (note CR 20 dragons hit 'max' Core AC on a 2, and other CR 20s need substantially higher, and Power Attack if you have less than max, this would be everything needs a nat 20 to hit you) which is bad design (and means the DM really does just circumvent AC entirely). Still thinking some class features that benefit from being in light or no armor, and possibly specifically dressed in a way that accentuates your figure. Incubus/Succubus is one place I feel that is appropriate.
Pixie 3. Considering just flat giving more uses per day to SLAs (not as all they get) but seems boring. Will probably give them a suite of Image spells 1/day each (Silent, Minor, and Major) as one thing. Thought about Sneak Attack but that's boring, I'd rather emphasize the race's inbuilt abilities that PC classes can't improve.
Rakshasa 3. Definitely advances Sorcerer casting, probably no choice to ignore it since it's one of Rakshasa's defining traits and at ECL 15-17 it's balanced more like a PrC with extremely stringent prereqs than a base class. Some social stuff as well (3 levels of Social-Gish).
Dvati 2.
Ghost 2.
Mummy 2.
Vampire 2.
Yuan-Ti Pureblood 2.
Bhuka 1.
Bralani Eladrin 1.
Ghoul (Gravetouched) 1.
Kenku 1.
Lich 1.
Kenku Neanderthal 1.
Raptoran 1.
Spirit Folk 1.
Warforged 1.

While fighting for 2nd place continues with natural favorites Changeling and Elan vying closely with expected 'monster' competitors succubus and pixie (I mean of monstrous races they're clear favorites). Goliath holds onto its first place position, holding strong even as it moves up, as always a fan supported race intended for PC use this comes as no surprise. However we have a surprise rush from the catmobile... I mean rakshasa. Still they are a popular undersupported monster, so we'll have to see what comes of it.


I have loved the idea of the Ghaele since I first saw it and this might be unreasonable but it makes me biased in the other eladrin's case as well, I also liked the Bralani for it's own reasons.

I will admit there's a part of me really interested in PC ghaeles (it was the monster class I wanted to play when Savage Species came out*), wanted it in 2e when I first saw them in the Planescape MC 2, wanted it in 3e when they announced Savage Species, never got to play it.

*Gets Full BAB, all Good Saves, and Full Cleric casting for like 5 levels before its first LA, in a low level game...

Temotei
2016-08-29, 06:24 PM
Changeling, Dvati, Hadozee.

It makes me sad not to vote for the blue, though.

PapaQuackers
2016-08-29, 08:22 PM
Ghost and Lich.

Zaydos
2016-08-29, 08:32 PM
New Tally:

Kenku Goliath 4.
Changeling 4. This I'd just need to start making. I mean I have ideas, though fewer social chameleon ones than I'd like (more shapeshiftery or possibly even mind-reading sla), but just need to work on them to hammer them out.
Dvati 3.
Elan 3.
Ghost 3.
Succubus 3.
Pixie 3.
Rakshasa 3.
Lich 2.
Mummy 2.
Vampire 2.
Yuan-Ti Pureblood 2.
Bhuka 1.
Bralani Eladrin 1.
Ghoul (Gravetouched) 1.
Hadozee 1.
Kenku 1.
Kenku Neanderthal 1.
Raptoran 1.
Spirit Folk 1.
Warforged 1.

Changeling morphs around the bend to catch up with the Gargoyle-Mobile... This just in goliaths are not related to that Goliath, and it is not a Gargoyle-Mobile but closer to something out of the Flintstones. This announcer apparently needs a better seat or glasses. With that move, though, our Changeling contestant is once again neck and neck with Goliath and has passed early favorites of Vampire, Succubus, and Pixie. In fact Vampire seems to be running out of gas, even his good friend Ghost proving parasitic as it launches ahead. What will Vampire-kun do now?

The vying for third place on the other hand is still ferocious. While the Dvati twins try and double dash past that boo is now on their tail, and everyone knows what that means someone is going to steal their item. Our succubus contender seems to have taken levels in paladin (of slaughter) as she easily shrugs off the mental blast from the Elan's PsyRacer, even as it sends the Pixie-Flyer into a tailspin but no wait... yes our little Pixie who could pulls out of it. She's still in the race... assuming she doesn't get hit by the Catmobile so close to her tail.

And yes this mock-announcing entertains me to write it.

[QUOTE=Temotei;21151902]It makes me sad not to vote for the blue, though.

It should. Blue is perhaps the most deserving contender :smallfrown:

I'd probably not vote Blue either even though I always thought they were such a neat race.

Temotei
2016-08-29, 08:52 PM
It should. Blue is perhaps the most deserving contender :smallfrown:

I'd probably not vote Blue either even though I always thought they were such a neat race.

Maybe once I get working on that big goblin brew again I can do a thing for blues. Iono.

UrsusArctos
2016-08-29, 08:56 PM
If I have another vote, (I only voted twice?) then I'm going to vote for Blues.

Zaydos
2016-08-30, 02:42 AM
In general news if I do this again I'm going to have a shorter suggestions round (till Thursday) and 1 suggestion a person. However I will roll over old suggestions so things like Svirfneblin and Minotaur will remain, and may add a few myself. I mean I'll keep doing these as long as I keep enjoying them and people keep voting. By the Power of Tiamat's Skull I'd reopen the vote up a thing I made previously for me to add to (Zaydos Expands Past Work) if people were interested in it. I'd go with 3 votes for 3 different things, however if you share actual play experience about something I made (DMing or playing), preferably with notes on 'this worked' 'this did not' 'it needs an option that allows...' you can get a bonus vote to put into anything. Also if you suggest a way to expand something which gets ideas boiling in my mental tea pot then you'd get a bonus vote for that thing if you'd like; this would be purely subjective on, not even whether I think the suggestion is good or bad, but whether it makes me want to sit down and start working on it right away.

New Tally:

Kenku Goliath 4.
Changeling 4.
Dvati 3.
Elan 3.
Ghost 3.
Succubus 3.
Pixie 3.
Rakshasa 3.
Lich 2.
Mummy 2.
Vampire 2.
Yuan-Ti Pureblood 2.
Bhuka 1.
Blue 1.
Bralani Eladrin 1.
Ghoul (Gravetouched) 1.
Hadozee 1.
Kenku 1.
Kenku Neanderthal 1.
Raptoran 1.
Spirit Folk 1.
Warforged 1.

When I update for 1/3rd of a person you do not get commentary.


Maybe once I get working on that big goblin brew again I can do a thing for blues. Iono.

I'm actually surprised Goblin didn't get suggested at least once. Was sort of hoping for a goblin voting block to emerge (Blue, Bhuka, Goblin).


If I have another vote, (I only voted twice?) then I'm going to vote for Blues.

Added. PapaQuackers could use a third if they want.

Vertharrad
2016-08-30, 12:02 PM
I considered blue myself...but not this time, I'm sorry.

EdroGrimshell
2016-08-30, 10:20 PM
Changeling, Elan, Maenad

GnomishPride
2016-08-30, 10:43 PM
Dvati, Succubus, Lich
Woulda gone with Deep Gnome but at this point it doesn't have a prayer of getting enough votes.

Zaydos
2016-08-30, 11:56 PM
New Tally:

Changeling 5.
Dvati 4.
Elan 4.
Kenku Goliath 4.
Succubus 4.
Ghost 3.
Lich 3.
Pixie 3.
Rakshasa 3.
Mummy 2.
Vampire 2.
Yuan-Ti Pureblood 2.
Bhuka 1.
Blue 1.
Bralani Eladrin 1.
Ghoul (Gravetouched) 1.
Hadozee 1.
Kenku 1.
Kenku Neanderthal 1.
Raptoran 1.
Spirit Folk 1.
Warforged 1.

No commentary today.


I considered blue myself...but not this time, I'm sorry.

Honestly if I was voting blue would have been like my 5th or 6th choice.


Changeling, Elan, Maenad

Not adding new options in the middle of the voting so Maenad is out (there's a list in the OP as to the options). If I do another round after this one it will have a suggestion period at the beginning and you should feel free to suggest it then.

Other two tallied.


Dvati, Succubus, Lich
Woulda gone with Deep Gnome but at this point it doesn't have a prayer of getting enough votes.

That's fair. I mean I'm not sure I agree, it's got more time than has passed to get the votes, but I do expect most of the votes will have come in within the first 2 or so days. It would have been a longshot vote, though.

dragonjek
2016-08-31, 09:39 AM
Spirit Folk
Lich
Pixie

Libro
2016-08-31, 07:52 PM
Dvati: They need help. Professional help. From having read them over once, I don't think they're very playable.
Elan: They, too, need some help. It feels like the psionics people just wanted a long-lived psionic race that wasn't an elf.
Rakshasa: They're cool. Some attention should be definitely be given.

Zaydos
2016-09-01, 01:30 AM
New Tally:

Changeling 5. Physical Shift: A Changeling Paragon’s body is a fluid and shifting thing, and as such they learn to reinforce certain physical gifts when they re-work and shift their body. When you use Minor Shapechange you may choose one of the three bonuses below, this bonus applies until you use Minor Shapechange once more or you are forced back into your natural form (you may use Minor Shapechange to appear as your natural form to gain bonuses in it, but an effect which forces you to your natural form will still end these bonuses)
Enhanced Musculature: +2 Strength and an additional +2 bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.
Enhanced Coordination: +2 Dexterity and a +10-ft bonus to your land speed and any swim or fly speed you possess, +5-ft bonus to any climb speed you possess.
Enhanced Endurance: +2 Constitution and +2 natural armor.

Dvati 5.Improved Twin Link (Su): A Dvati paragon is more connected to their “twin” their very life force constantly fluctuating between them. Whenever a dvati paragon takes damage or regains hit points they may have any amount of the hp lost (or gain) be transferred to the other twin. In addition their psychic link is more powerful allowing them to always know their twin’s mental state and hit point total, and even see out of their twin’s eyes as a standard action. Finally a dvati paragon that casts a spell may have twin not currently casting a spell act normally but they cannot also cast a spell during that turn unless. A swift action spell may be cast, but only one twin can cast a swift action spell each round as well.
Elan 5. Psionic Capacity: Even those Elan which do not focus their pursuits on the psionic develop increased psionic reserves. You gain power points based on your character level as shown on the table below. You do not gain bonus power points for Elan Paragon levels (unless they increased your effective psion level in which case you get them for your effective psion level).
LevelPower PointsImproved Psionic Capacity
11
23
34 7
45 9
57 12
69 16
710 19
811 21
912 23
1014 26
1116 30
1218 34
1319 37
1422 41
1523 45
1624 47
1726 50
1827 53
1928 55
2029 57
Explanation: Psionic Capacity means that they gain roughly the PP a Psion of their character level gained due to their most recent class level (1 less, increasing to 2 less at 7th, and 3 less at 17th). Improved Psionic Capacity they only gain if they forgo manifesting increases and simply adds the amount from one level lower to the current total. This is just to explain before people go ‘holy crap that’s half of a psychic warrior’s base PP pool’, I mean you still can if you think it’s too much, but it’s one of those it’s actually less than it seems (and comparing to PsiWar you’d be losing 3 ML for 21 PP, I mean you’d be getting more too but I haven’t written that yet).

Kenku Goliath 4.
Lich 4.
Pixie 4.
Rakshasa 4.
Succubus 4.
Ghost 3.
Mummy 2.
Spirit Folk 2.
Vampire 2.
Yuan-Ti Pureblood 2.
Bhuka 1.
Blue 1.
Bralani Eladrin 1.
Ghoul (Gravetouched) 1.
Hadozee 1.
Kenku 1.
Kenku Neanderthal 1.
Raptoran 1.
Warforged 1.

And goliath falls behind. Changeling, our announcer's top bet for 1st place, is still staying strong, but would have expected Goliath to be its biggest contender not Elan and Dvati, not that those two are too surprising. In truth it's more surprising that Warforged lags so far behind. Still in the big pile up for 4th place we have some interesting contenders who could still push to the top, after all if I have to break ties, Changeling might be my personal first pick, but I do have a soft spot for rakshasa. We've got the expected goliath, I'd like to see win, though I'd probably go for a challenge race over it in a tie break assuming 2 of the current top 3 keep their positions, after all they're all PC races. Which brings us to the 'fun' race(r)s. Lich is a surprise contender, I mean I thought it was more likely than mummy or ghoul, but still high level caster... oh yes it's a caster thing and casters are fun. Still high level template, but I've got some fun ideas for it at this point borrowing from my favorite type of liches :smallwink: Gnome liches! Fizzlebitwilliwick the dragon is a dragon supremicist his favorite would be dragon liches, not gnomish ones, let me do the talking! Dracoliches! Next up is pixie, the most playable of the four 'fun' race(r)s, pixies are probably the hardest for this purpose. Still the little thing gives me some fun options, just got to resist the temptation to give it sneak attack. Trying to keep their lead is our succubus racer. One of the more playable monstrous races, they've lost some of their charm as at-will Charm Monster became easier to acquire, even so that whopping +16 Charisma modifier (+8 to save DC) gives them a punch. Still will the Stardust Seductress pull abreast with our leading trio? And last but not least we've got our surprise contender, rakshasa. A dark horse in this contest, still they've got some serious support it seems. Will the dark tiger pounce ahead?


Dvati: They need help. Professional help. From having read them over once, I don't think they're very playable.
Elan: They, too, need some help. It feels like the psionics people just wanted a long-lived psionic race that wasn't an elf.
Rakshasa: They're cool. Some attention should be definitely be given.

Dvati really do need help, I mean right now I'm more doing abilities to fix the race than abilities to actually be abilities. The thing is they've got scary potential... they just didn't need the casting rule they got, and even then they've got iffy elements. I've seen 'em played though and they actually play a lot better than they look and I need to remember that.

Elan actually do much better, they see use, they're not a top tier race but they're actually pretty well balanced with some neat abilities, the aberration type, and... ok they really only work as Psions and maybe Psychic Warriors (I guess Ardents too). The Cha penalty is a shame else they could be fun wilders too.

EdroGrimshell
2016-09-01, 10:45 AM
Elan actually do much better, they see use, they're not a top tier race but they're actually pretty well balanced with some neat abilities, the aberration type, and... ok they really only work as Psions and maybe Psychic Warriors (I guess Ardents too). The Cha penalty is a shame else they could be fun wilders too.

Dreamscarred Press had a Racial Sub Level for them as Wilders that made their Cha effectively 2 higher for their manifesting at no cost IIRC. It's 3rd party for 3.5, but they're the people that did the official pathfinder psionics, so...

Zaydos
2016-09-01, 11:54 PM
Dreamscarred Press had a Racial Sub Level for them as Wilders that made their Cha effectively 2 higher for their manifesting at no cost IIRC. It's 3rd party for 3.5, but they're the people that did the official pathfinder psionics, so...

Did it get ported to PF when they did that, because I seem to remember seeing it when I made a Werelion PsyWar in PF.

Tiktakkat
2016-09-02, 11:44 PM
Warforged
Gnoll
Shifter

Zaydos
2016-09-03, 12:03 AM
New Tally:

Changeling 5. Shifting Skills (Ex): You gain 3 shifting skill points. You may assign these skill points as normal, but as a free action you may reassign one or more of these skill points, these skill points are always assigned 1 for 1 as long as the skill is a class skill for you even if not in the class of your current level. Each shifting skill point may be changed this way only once per day. These shifting skill points may not be used to raise a skill to above its max ranks, nor can these shifting skill points be used to qualify for Prestige Class prerequisites.

If at 3rd level you select Shifting Skills a second time not only do you gain 3 more shifting skill points but each point may now be changed twice per day.

Dvati 5.Twin Support (Ex): When both dvati paragon twins aid a single creature (with the aid another action) to perform the same task that creature gains an additional +2 to their roll (this normally means a total of +6), in addition when a dvati twin uses aid another to assist their twin in a task other than combat they add a +4 bonus to the skill instead of +2 (dvati already grant a +4 bonus when aiding their twin's attack or AC).
Elan 5. Replenish (Su): As a standard action you may spend 1 or more power points to heal yourself 3 hp per power point spent or a touched creature 2 hp per power point spent.
Kenku Goliath 4.
Lich 4.
Pixie 4.
Rakshasa 4.
Succubus 4.
Ghost 3.
Mummy 2.
Spirit Folk 2.
Vampire 2.
Warforged 2.
Yuan-Ti Pureblood 2.
Bhuka 1.
Blue 1.
Bralani Eladrin 1.
Ghoul (Gravetouched) 1.
Hadozee 1.
Kenku 1.
Kenku Neanderthal 1.
Raptoran 1.


Warforged
Gnoll
Shifter

Warforged tallied, the other two weren't on the list for voting (and I've found when I allow write-ins in the middle people start changing votes and that's a headache, also at this point with 23 hours of voting left I doubt write-ins will get 4 more votes) but feel free to suggest one of them in the next suggestion round if I do a take 3*, and feel free to add up to 2 others from the list in the OP.

*Doing a take 3 will be largely dependent upon whether people say to after I finish making the stuff from this round.

Tiktakkat
2016-09-03, 02:50 PM
[Warforged tallied, the other two weren't on the list for voting . . .

Sorry, completely missed that.
(Me and my lousy Spot and Search skills.)

Zaydos
2016-09-03, 02:56 PM
Sorry, completely missed that.
(Me and my lousy Spot and Search skills.)

It's perfectly fine.

I think if this does get a 3rd round Suggestions will probably be next Wednes or Thurs through Saturday with 1 suggestion a piece, and then voting will be 1 week with any number of votes (but no voting for the same thing multiple times).

Because... well my best theory is that I am Chaotic Lawful. There must be rules and they must be obeyed absolutely, but they must never remain the same and must change at near random and arbitrarily.

Digitalfruitz
2016-09-03, 04:55 PM
I'll vote Goliath, hadozee, and raptoran

Zaydos
2016-09-04, 01:45 AM
[QUOTE=Zaydos;21165814]Final Tally:

Changeling (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?499377-Changeling-Parago-(3-level-racial-paragon-class)&p=21168321#post21168321) 5.
Dvati 5.
Elan 5.
Kenku Goliath 5.
Lich 4.
Pixie 4.
Rakshasa 4.
Succubus 4.
Ghost 3.
Hadozee 2.
Mummy 2.
Raptoran 2.
Spirit Folk 2.
Vampire 2.
Warforged 2.
Yuan-Ti Pureblood 2.
Bhuka 1.
Blue 1.
Bralani Eladrin 1.
Ghoul (Gravetouched) 1.
Kenku 1.
Kenku Neanderthal 1.

With Digitalfruitz votes goliath finally pulls back into what is a 4 way photo finish for first. While the exotic races of Succubus, Rakshasa, and Pixie put up a good fight, not to mention Lich, they just couldn't overcome the appeal of the PC races. While I'm still surprised warforged didn't do better (2 votes come now), goliath and changelings were my other initial favorites to win and rank in the top 4, with Elan in the next tier down.

Now the time has come for final decisions over which 3 will be made. Changeling will be, has been made (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?499377-Changeling-Parago-(3-level-racial-paragon-class)&p=21168321#post21168321) feel free to comment (I'm not sure about the power level, aimed for worth taking with tier 3s but that puts it as kind of bloated). Also feel free to make a case for one, or two, or if you're feeling self-contrarian three of the other three. I'm still working on things and haven't decided which two will come, part of it will depend upon what I get inspiration for. I mean Elan would be easy but boring, Goliath would be a little harder, Dvati I might end up with several abilities that go 'I honestly think this should be part of the race to begin with, if you houserule that give them X instead' which just makes them extra hard. Still I'm open to suggestions for how you'd like to see them go or just why you think one race should get it while I make the others over the next... well depends upon mood and the like could be 24 hours could be 72 probably won't be more.

PapaQuackers
2016-09-04, 11:31 AM
I just wanted to be a ghost q.q

nonsi
2016-09-04, 12:54 PM
Final Tally:

Changeling (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?499377-Changeling-Parago-(3-level-racial-paragon-class)&p=21168321#post21168321) 5.
Dvati 5.
Elan 5.
Kenku Goliath 5.
Lich 4.
Pixie 4.
Rakshasa 4.
Succubus 4.
Ghost 3.
Hadozee 2.
Mummy 2.
Raptoran 2.
Spirit Folk 2.
Vampire 2.
Warforged 2.
Yuan-Ti Pureblood 2.
Bhuka 1.
Blue 1.
Bralani Eladrin 1.
Ghoul (Gravetouched) 1.
Kenku 1.
Kenku Neanderthal 1.

With Digitalfruitz votes goliath finally pulls back into what is a 4 way photo finish for first. While the exotic races of Succubus, Rakshasa, and Pixie put up a good fight, not to mention Lich, they just couldn't overcome the appeal of the PC races. While I'm still surprised warforged didn't do better (2 votes come now), goliath and changelings were my other initial favorites to win and rank in the top 4, with Elan in the next tier down.

Now the time has come for final decisions over which 3 will be made. Changeling will be, has been made (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?499377-Changeling-Parago-(3-level-racial-paragon-class)&p=21168321#post21168321) feel free to comment (I'm not sure about the power level, aimed for worth taking with tier 3s but that puts it as kind of bloated). Also feel free to make a case for one, or two, or if you're feeling self-contrarian three of the other three. I'm still working on things and haven't decided which two will come, part of it will depend upon what I get inspiration for. I mean Elan would be easy but boring, Goliath would be a little harder, Dvati I might end up with several abilities that go 'I honestly think this should be part of the race to begin with, if you houserule that give them X instead' which just makes them extra hard. Still I'm open to suggestions for how you'd like to see them go or just why you think one race should get it while I make the others over the next... well depends upon mood and the like could be 24 hours could be 72 probably won't be more.

I remember going over Arcana Evolved before I go my hands on Races of Stone.
Ever since I saw the Goliath, it felt that any minute now it's gonna get full fledged large size.
Never happened. I guess WotC writers had dreaded that hot potato :smallfrown:
Would be nice to see it done right.

Zaydos
2016-09-04, 07:53 PM
I remember going over Arcana Evolved before I go my hands on Races of Stone.
Ever since I saw the Goliath, it felt that any minute now it's gonna get full fledged large size.
Never happened. I guess WotC writers had dreaded that hot potato :smallfrown:
Would be nice to see it done right.

Well they're not quite large size (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?499443-Goliath-Paragon-(3-level-racial-paragon-class)&p=21170261#post21170261), just large in any or all ways which are beneficial to them. Apparently appealing to my desire to make the easiest thing for the race that (of the three) I like the best and have the most inspiration for works. Surprising.

Now we're down to the hard choice.

Elan or Dvati.

Pros for Elan:

Easier; I mean between the two prepared sample abilities I've got about 1/2 or 1/3 of the class.
More inspired; Elan racial abilities give me ideas for what to do.
More likely to see play: This is a guess.
I like them better.
Would be faster and almost certainly done within 28 hours.


Pros for Dvati:

More challenging: It's an actually interesting intellectual challenge instead of just hammering something out.
More interesting: I mean they're just more complic... ok this is covered in more challenging.
I haven't done it before: I already made an Elan Exemplar PrC which was sort of like a lv 6-15 Elan Paragon class.
More likely to meaningfully expand character options.



I just wanted to be a ghost q.q

I'll probably do another round if people tell me to. Ghosts still have a chance.

khadgar567
2016-09-05, 01:27 AM
when the 3rd suggestion round starts ı got perfect suggestion to suggest

Zaydos
2016-09-05, 02:10 AM
Alright currently leaning towards Dvati, will sleep on it (because I'm going to fall asleep before I make it even if I started now) but currently thinking of breaking one of the golden rules of Dvati and having the two twins develop slightly different abilities at 2nd and 3rd level of the paragon class. Specifically dvati have a big emphasis on looking at things from two different viewpoints, using two different approaches, and so forth, with emphasis on dualism as well (also they're from the Outlands in 2e who knew) so what I was thinking was to give at 2nd level the choice of two 'power sources' from: Arcane, Divine, Martial, Psionics, Shadow Magic, and Skill. You get to choose one for each twin. If you choose say Arcane and Divine one twin would (over 2nd and 3rd level) gain 2nd level wizard casting the other 2nd level cleric casting, if you had wizard and/or cleric levels already the twins would share spell slots and uses for those levels normally but for the spell slots from their 2 highest wizard/cleric levels each slot would only be accessible by 1 twin and the CL for one twin would be 2 less. Martial would grant +2 BAB and some other abilities. Skill would grant skill ranks that only one twin got and some other abilities. I'd throw in Sublime except it gets really awkward with this due to how it swaps things for higher level maneuvers.

So dvati fans how does this idea sound in the first place?

khadgar567
2016-09-05, 02:21 AM
Alright currently leaning towards Dvati, will sleep on it (because I'm going to fall asleep before I make it even if I started now) but currently thinking of breaking one of the golden rules of Dvati and having the two twins develop slightly different abilities at 2nd and 3rd level of the paragon class. Specifically dvati have a big emphasis on looking at things from two different viewpoints, using two different approaches, and so forth, with emphasis on dualism as well (also they're from the Outlands in 2e who knew) so what I was thinking was to give at 2nd level the choice of two 'power sources' from: Arcane, Divine, Martial, Psionics, Shadow Magic, and Skill. You get to choose one for each twin. If you choose say Arcane and Divine one twin would (over 2nd and 3rd level) gain 2nd level wizard casting the other 2nd level cleric casting, if you had wizard and/or cleric levels already the twins would share spell slots and uses for those levels normally but for the spell slots from their 2 highest wizard/cleric levels each slot would only be accessible by 1 twin and the CL for one twin would be 2 less. Martial would grant +2 BAB and some other abilities. Skill would grant skill ranks that only one twin got and some other abilities. I'd throw in Sublime except it gets really awkward with this due to how it swaps things for higher level maneuvers.

So dvati fans how does this idea sound in the first place?
not a fan but solid

paddyfool
2016-09-05, 04:47 AM
Your ideas for the Dvati sound interesting to me, even though it's not a race I've ever played or seen played.

Zaydos
2016-09-05, 12:24 PM
Welp I posted Dvati Paragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?499528-Dvati-Paragon-(3-Level-Racial-Paragon-Class)&p=21172190#post21172190) with the fluff not finished (it's Goliath Paragon fluff at the moment because I hit post instead of preview), but the mechanics are there (even the class skill list now) so people can take a look at it. If people want a round 3 let me know and preferably let me know your thoughts on the results of this round so I can tweak, improve, and make the next wave better, but I'm going to fix the dvati paragon fluff first.

Edit: Fluffed those pillows.

Zaydos
2016-09-06, 04:06 PM
Well went ahead and made a take 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?499660-Vote!-What-racial-(paragon)-class-would-you-like-to-see-Take-3-(Suggestion-Round)&p=21176231#post21176231) if there was anything you wanted to suggest (Maenad, gnoll, shifter) feel free to go and make it known.