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Godrednu
2016-08-24, 11:43 AM
I am a little confused on how battle works and magical darkness when the creature has tremorsense. For instance, who has Advantage when and who has disadvantage when? Also when is the creatures position given away? Stuff like that. Thanks for the help.

JellyPooga
2016-08-24, 12:12 PM
Line of Sight 101

1) If you can't see them, you have Disadvantage to hit them.

2) If you can't see them, they have Advantage to hit you.

3) You can't attack what you can't locate.
3a) You can "attack the darkness" (i.e. guess where they are).

4) If both parties are blind, the Advantage and Disadvantage cancel out.

Tremorsense 101

1) Tremorsense lets you locate a target in contact with the same piece of ground.

2) Tremorsense does not let you "see" through opaque surfaces.

Tremorsense, Darkness, LoS and Battle

A creature with Tremorsense will always be able to locate a creature in contact with the ground. Unless they have an ability that allows them to see through (magical) darkness, they will suffer Disadvantage to attack anyone they cannot see and creatures that can see in darkness will have Advantage against the creature with Tremorsense. If they're burrowing, no ability I know of allows them to see through OR attack through dirt (there may be exceptions; check the individual MM stat-block); they'll have to surface to attack.

Tremorsense is a passive ability, thus is always "on", allowing a creature to locate another at any time (just as your eyes allow you to locate another creature at any time). I can see nothing in the rules that would not allow a Stealth check against Tremorsense, using the normal Stealth rules.

Godrednu
2016-08-24, 01:17 PM
What if it were just regular darkness, and they were in melee combat? Would the character then be able to see the creature when it's within 5 feet or is he still blind to it?

Tanarii
2016-08-24, 01:19 PM
I can see nothing in the rules that would not allow a Stealth check against Tremorsense, using the normal Stealth rules.What good would that do? A successful Stealth check just makes it so they can't locate you. And with Tremorsense, they can always locate you.

JellyPooga
2016-08-24, 04:13 PM
What good would that do?
Would you care to read your statement again?

A successful Stealth check just makes it so they can't locate you.
Gottit.

And with Tremorsense, they can always locate you.
Corrected for you. Tremorsense is no less fallible a sense than sight. A Stealth check (specific case) trumps Tremorsense (general rule) just as much as it does sight (another general rule).

A monster with Tremorsense can locate and pinpoint the origin of vibrations within a specific radius, provided that the monster and the source of the vibrations are in contact with the same ground or substance.

What if it were just regular darkness, and they were in melee combat? Would the character then be able to see the creature when it's within 5 feet or is he still blind to it?
Same as magical darkness. If you can't see, you can't see and suffer the usual penalties. If you have some way of locating a creature, you can attack them but will still suffer Disadvantage.

Tanarii
2016-08-24, 04:20 PM
Corrected for you. Tremorsense is no less fallible a sense than sight. A Stealth check (specific case) trumps Tremorsense (general rule) just as much as it does sight (another general rule).Oh I see. You're assuming Stealth is the specific rule.

IMO it's the other way around, and Tremorsense is the specific rule, overriding the Stealth general rule.

OTOH that's always the thing about specific vs general. It's all very well to say specific overrides general, but usually which is which is not clear at all.

JellyPooga
2016-08-24, 04:33 PM
Oh I see. You're assuming Stealth is the specific rule.

IMO it's the other way around, and Tremorsense is the specific rule, overriding the Stealth general rule.

OTOH that's always the thing about specific vs general. It's all very well to say specific overrides general, but usually which is which is not clear at all.

When it comes to specific vs. general, I adopt the approach that if two abilities come into conflict, where one is active and the other is passive, the active one is usually the "specific" one.

For example;

Stealth vs. Perception normally defaults to Passive Perception vs. Active Stealth. Stealth being the Active ability, on a success trumps the General ability of Passive Perception to locate a creature (which it always does unless someone's making a Stealth check).

The reverse is also true; if a thing or creature has been hidden with a Sleight of Hand or Stealth check, that check becomes passive and a successful Active Perception check defeats it.

Tremorsense isn't some kind of god-sense that trumps all comers; it's just another (slightly odd) pair of eyes or ears that happens to detect vibrations in solid matter instead of sound or light. Stealth will still defeat it (albeit, I'd probably rule that a creature with Tremorsense has Advantage on any Perception checks (passive or active) to locate most PC's; the Fremen might get away with avoiding this penalty when it comes to giant sand-worms, for example).

RSP
2016-08-24, 05:17 PM
I read Tremorsense as allowing you to note the movements on a surface, which Stealth wouldn't counter, assuming the Stealthing individual is in fact walking, or "moving and touching" said surface.

Essentially I treat Tremorsense's ability to locate the creature moving on the surface as being "seen," which nullifies Stealth.

RAW, you could argue that Stealth could work, but I don't believe that's the RAI.

I'm also unaware of any way to "stealth" the fact that you're stepping (that is, the Stealthed character making some sort of contact with the Tremorsensed surface) when moving across a surface you're making contact with, but maybe someone has an idea that would provide a good "rule of cool" exception.

JellyPooga
2016-08-24, 05:41 PM
I'm not sure where this notion that Stealth should be ineffective against Tremorsense is coming from.


Make a Dexterity(Stealth) check when you attempt to conceal yourself from enemies, slink past guards, slip away without being noticed, or sneak up on someone without being seen or heard

Stealth covers any attempt to conceal yourself from enemies, not just hiding yourself from view or hearing. Stepping softly, or in time with another rhythm in the ground would both be effective foils to Tremorsense locating you. I can even imagine specialised equipment helping, such as the thumpers from the Dune series or padded shoes.

Any motion or equipment that reduces vibrations, which is specifically what Tremorsense detect, could foil it. Any motion or equipment that generates additional vibrations could confuse it (like cross-chatter does for sound). I'll say it again; Tremorsense is just another mundane sense (or a heightening of an existing one) that allows a creature to locate vibrations in solid matter (not just surfaces). Like other senses, it can be foiled or confused and Stealth is the "foil or confuse the senses" skill.

Saggo
2016-08-24, 07:42 PM
3) You can't attack what you can't locate.
3a) You can "attack the darkness" (i.e. guess where they are).

A sidebar to the tremorsense discussion, worth noting that just because you can't see a target doesn't mean you also can't locate them. You would still know the 5' square a target is in if in Darkness, unless they stealthed or there was a narrative reason to enforce a skill check.

JellyPooga
2016-08-24, 07:58 PM
...just because you can't see a target doesn't mean you also can't locate them.

Yeah, I knew there was something missing from my 101, but couldn't put my finger on it. This should have been in there, absolutely.

Xetheral
2016-08-24, 09:04 PM
A sidebar to the tremorsense discussion, worth noting that just because you can't see a target doesn't mean you also can't locate them. You would still know the 5' square a target is in if in Darkness, unless they stealthed or there was a narrative reason to enforce a skill check.

That is contested. It may be the majority opinion, but it's not universally agreed upon by forum posters.

Saggo
2016-08-24, 09:36 PM
That is contested. It may be the majority opinion, but it's not universally agreed upon by forum posters.

Very few things are universally agreed on.

In this case however, the rules don't prevent you from locating the square someone heavily obscured is in. Being heavily obscured only induces effectively Blindness and Blindness only induces disadvantage.

Xetheral
2016-08-24, 09:46 PM
Very few things are universally agreed on.

In this case however, the rules don't prevent you from locating the square someone heavily obscured is in. Being heavily obscured only induces effectively Blindness and Blindness only induces disadvantage.

This one is highly controversial. Just go read any of the other dozen+ threads on the subject. It's controversial enough to at least mention the controversy to people asking questions on the subject.

Plaguescarred
2016-08-24, 09:49 PM
If it interest anyone Chris Perkins answered that tremorsense can locate a hidden creature if it succeed on it's Perception check http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/20/can-a-creature-with-tremorsense-locate-a-stealthed-character/


@brooksie014 can a creature with Tremorsense locate a stealthed player while said player is moving within the radius?
@ChrisPerkinsDnD I would say yes, if the creature's Wisdom (Perception) check beats the character's Dexterity (Stealth) check.

Saggo
2016-08-24, 10:25 PM
This one is highly controversial. Just go read any of the other dozen+ threads on the subject. It's controversial enough to at least mention the controversy to people asking questions on the subject.

I would barely call it controversial, the series of effects are pretty clearly delineated. If there's a rule that prevents you from locating targets while blinded, I wouldn't mind seeing the page it's on.

Xetheral
2016-08-24, 11:09 PM
I would barely call it controversial, the series of effects are pretty clearly delineated. If there's a rule that prevents you from locating targets while blinded, I wouldn't mind seeing the page it's on.

There isn't one, just as there isn't a rule saying that characters are automatically aware of the location of non-stealthed enemies. It's left up to each individual DM, and I think the endless threads about this make it clear that there is controversy. It's one thing to disagree with others, it's another to deny that their opinion even exists, which is exactly what you're doing when you refuse to label as controversial one of the most controversial topics in all of 5e.

See, e.g.,:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?496291-Invisibility-and-you
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?425260-Devil-s-Sight-isn-t-Broken-Overpowered
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454895-Echolocation-for-All
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?435466-The-Hiding-Rules-Contradict-Themselves
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?473550-What-are-good-ways-to-spot-invisible-people-(and-how-to-break-concentration)

Out of curiosity, if you believe anyone can already detect and pinpoint the location of non-hidden, non-visible opponents, what on earth does Tremorsense do?

Saggo
2016-08-24, 11:38 PM
There isn't one, just as there isn't a rule saying that characters are automatically aware of the location of non-stealthed enemies.

Please note I didn't say automatically. I said you can locate people heavily obscured or blinded. Unseen is not unheard, unfelt, or unsmelled, and it's the DM's job to arbitrate how.

In the same regard, you are not automatically unlocatable when heavily obscured. If a target wants to remain unlocated, they need to be stealthed. At which point you need to use your action to search.

Edit: Sight is of special importance mostly because it governs when you're allowed to stealth.

I'm also not denying people there opinions. I'm disagreeing with them and supporting my argument by citing the book. I have page numbers if needed.



Out of curiosity, if you believe anyone can already detect and pinpoint the location of non-hidden, non-visible opponents, what on earth does Tremorsense do?
What the Monster Manual says, you feel vibrations. If you're burrowed for instance, you can't hear, see, feel, or smell a target, you need the vibrations.

Xetheral
2016-08-25, 12:12 AM
I'm also not denying people there opinions. I'm disagreeing with them and supporting my argument by citing the book. I have page numbers if needed.

Disagreeing with them is one thing. Denying the controversy, however, is denying that the opinions on the other side of the controversy matter.


What the Monster Manual says, you feel vibrations. If you're burrowed for instance, you can't hear, see, feel, or smell a target, you need the vibrations.

My question is, what is the mechanical benefit of having Tremorsense if, as you assert, you already know the location of all unseen, unhidden enemies anyway?

RSP
2016-08-25, 12:21 AM
The reason I think Tremorsense negates Stealth is because you can't Stealth if you're seen. Someone else posted they thought of Tremorsense as a different set of magical eyes, and though I don't know if I agree with that analogy or imagery, it does help in this explanation. If that different set of eyes is observing you, then you can't Stealth, just like if normal eyes are viewing you.

As stated by others, there's no RAW on it, but just like sonar equals Blindsight for certain creatures, thereby granting them the ability to "see" invisible or otherwise hidden creatures using sound, I feel the intent is for Tremorsense to do the same; vibrations allow for the equivalent of "seeing" hidden characters, thereby negating any Stealth.

RSP
2016-08-25, 12:27 AM
Good point by Xetheral. And just to further state it: If you need to beat a creatures Stealth roll to perceive them even with Tremorsense, then Tremorsense does nothing as every creature already has the ability to counter Stealth with a Perception roll. As nothing in the ability grants Advantage or anything, it would literally do nothing. Even a blind creature can notice a Stealthed creature; so the additional sense would be completely useless in terms of game mechanics.

Saggo
2016-08-25, 12:53 AM
Disagreeing with them is one thing. Denying the controversy, however, is denying that the opinions on the other side of the controversy matter.

I'm not going to call something controversial if I have supported arguments. Present an opposing argument if you want, but claiming controversy is nebulous and does not add to the conversation.



My question is, what is the mechanical benefit of having Tremorsense if, as you assert, you already know the location of all unseen, unhidden enemies anyway?

The same benefit of the other senses, no disadvantaged perception or attack rolls against a creature under the unseen target or blinded rules. A useful sense for underground-dwelling burrowers, which you'll notice tend to be the creatures with tremorsense.

RSP
2016-08-25, 01:18 AM
Saggo,
Tremorsense doesn't allow you to see creatures at all; it gives you their location. Nothing in Tremorsense negates the disadvantage applied when dealing with attacking an unseen opponent.

Unless I'm missing something the only mechanical effect of Tremorsense is auto noticing hidden creatures.

Saggo
2016-08-25, 01:37 AM
Unless I'm missing something the only mechanical effect of Tremorsense is auto noticing hidden creatures.

Yeah, rereading it seems like blinding tremorsense works as advertised. You still need it to locate a creature while burrowed.

But if they can't see you through tremorsense, they can't prevent you from becoming hidden, as that's the only requirement.

Xetheral
2016-08-25, 03:24 AM
I'm not going to call something controversial if I have supported arguments. Present an opposing argument if you want, but claiming controversy is nebulous and does not add to the conversation.

Are you saying the only way you'd call something controversial is if you don't think your own opinion has enough support? That's equivalent to saying that something can only be controversial if you personally aren't confident of the answer.

Pointing out the contrversy surrounding an answer you've provided to a question isn't nebulous, it's critical context. Otherwise you risk falsely implying to the person you're trying to help that there is community consensus. In my mind that's somewhere between "unhelpful" and "dishonest".

And no, I'm not going to reopen a stealth debate. In the end, what it always comes down to is that there is no rule saying creatures know the location of unhidden enemies, and there is equally no rule saying they don't. Both sides are making warranted inferences from the text, and they disagree on which inferences are superior. That's a recipie for argument without end, just as we've seen on the topic since the early days of 5e.

JellyPooga
2016-08-25, 11:07 AM
Please note I didn't say automatically. I said you can locate people heavily obscured or blinded. Unseen is not unheard, unfelt, or unsmelled, and it's the DM's job to arbitrate how.

I agree very much with this.


As stated by others, there's no RAW on it, but just like sonar equals Blindsight for certain creatures, thereby granting them the ability to "see" invisible or otherwise hidden creatures using sound, I feel the intent is for Tremorsense to do the same; vibrations allow for the equivalent of "seeing" hidden characters, thereby negating any Stealth.

No, Tremorsense doesn't let you perceive your surroundings like Blindsight does, it only allows you to locate creatures. Take another look at the descriptions of Blindsight and Tremorsense; the difference is pretty emphatic.


Good point by Xetheral. And just to further state it: If you need to beat a creatures Stealth roll to perceive them even with Tremorsense, then Tremorsense does nothing as every creature already has the ability to counter Stealth with a Perception roll. As nothing in the ability grants Advantage or anything, it would literally do nothing. Even a blind creature can notice a Stealthed creature; so the additional sense would be completely useless in terms of game mechanics.

Unless I'm missing something the only mechanical effect of Tremorsense is auto noticing hidden creatures.

No no no. You're not reading Tremorsense. Where in the description does it say anything about automatically detecting hidden creatures. It says that a creature with it can detect the location of vibrations in solid material that it's in contact with. That's it. It doesn't say "this sense is completely infallible" or "no sneaking around when tremorsense abound".

Of course Stealth works against it, because Stealth is the skill of obfuscating the senses, whether that be staying out of sight, remaining quiet, moving at the right time or whatever need be done in order to avoid detection and Tremorsense is just another sense. I've already discussed how Tremorsense could be foiled in a previous post.

Going back to the issue of Tremorsense being useful; Under normal circumstances, for instance, a burrowing creature would have several feet of dirt/rock/whatever between itself and its prey. Several feet of solid material is usually enough to block sight, sound, smell and touch to the degree that a Stealth roll isn't even necessary to remain effectively "hidden". Along comes Tremorsense, which will pinpoint the location of a creature through 60ft (60ft!) of rock and suddenly the subterranean ambush predator actually makes sense. You're telling me that's not doing anything without automatically defeating Stealth?

Joe Average the Human cannot even try to be aware of someone through 60ft of rock and dirt, but a Bullette or Purple Worm can accurately locate their exact location. That's pretty extraordinary.

While on the surface, sure, Tremorsense doesn't do a great deal. Why should it? A bats Blindsense should be totally useless underwater and shouldn't work through solid rock. A humans eyesight is totally useless in total darkness (heck, it's pretty useless in partial darkness). Tremorsense is only useful when in contact with solid material; the more contact, the better. On the surface, you have very little contact, so the sense is likewise limited, but that's not where the sense excels.

MaxWilson
2016-08-25, 11:20 AM
Very few things are universally agreed on.

In this case however, the rules don't prevent you from locating the square someone heavily obscured is in. Being heavily obscured only induces effectively Blindness and Blindness only induces disadvantage.

Clarification: per PHB errata, being heavily obscured induces effective blindness in creatures who are looking at you, not in yourself. They can't see you, but you can still see them if you've got line of sight.

This is controversial, and many people aren't aware of the errata, so ask your DM. But it is the rule written in new copies of the PHB, FWIW.

Saggo
2016-08-25, 01:46 PM
Clarification: per PHB errata, being heavily obscured induces effective blindness in creatures who are looking at you, not in yourself. They can't see you, but you can still see them if you've got line of sight.

This is controversial, and many people aren't aware of the errata, so ask your DM. But it is the rule written in new copies of the PHB, FWIW.

Yeah, I was aware of the eratta. I could have perhaps been clearer about who is blinded to who, but it's ancillary to the point I was making. It doesn't matter who was blinded to who, you are both still able to track each other's location as blindness only induces disadvantage and failed sight checks.

RSP
2016-08-25, 02:07 PM
Jelly,
A few points. Starting with this statement you made:

"Of course Stealth works against it, because Stealth is the skill of obfuscating the senses, whether that be staying out of sight, remaining quiet, moving at the right time or whatever need be done in order to avoid detection and Tremorsense is just another sense. I've already discussed how Tremorsense could be foiled in a previous post."

Stealth does not do anything in terms of "obfuscating the senses" and in fact is pretty much the opposite: stealth is avoiding the senses. If it obfuscated any senses, you could use stealth in plain sight because it would obfuscate the perceiver's vision.

Stealth flat out states you can't use it if you can be seen. Again, it's the avoidance of being noticed and does nothing to the senses of any creatures' ability to perceive the Stealthed character.

Next, you misinterpreted my point on Blindsight and Tremorsense. I was not saying Tremorsense works like Blindsight. I was saying, per the fluff of creatures with Blindsight, that it represents creatures using other senses to effectively "see" creatures. Here's part of the fluff:

"Creatures without eyes, such as grimlocks and gray oozes, typically have this special sense, as do creatures with echolocation or heightened senses, such as bats and true dragons."

My statement was, I believe the RAI for Tremoresense follows this logic and provides a creature with Tremorsense the ability to perceive creatures that fit the qualifications of the ability (basically touching the shared surface). And followed the logic and what I believe the designer's RAI to be "if you can be perceived, you can't Stealth because Stealth is the avoidance of being perceived."

Going back to my first point, Stealth doesn't obfuscate anything, it deals with avoiding notice. As you can't avoid touching a surface you are stepping on, stealth would not apply to Tremorsense. Tremorsense actually lays out in its description that it doesn't work on flying or incorporeal creatures; its stating the limitations of the ability. Notice how it doesn't include a caveat for Stealthing characters.

As for your limitations on what "average joe" can and cannot perceive, you're making them up. Any character can perceive vibrations in the ground from a creature burrowing beneath them if the DM chooses that s character's passive perception is high enough. There is no RAW of "if a creature is burrowing they cannot be detected." This is a restriction completely made up by you. If you want to play that at your table, cool, but it's not RAW at all. Here's an example of how we play it at my table:

DM: "Any one with a Passive Perception of at least 18 notices the ground below you is vibrating."

Maybe I'm missing something but I've seen zero RAW stating anything along the lines of "characters without Tremorsense are incapable of noticing vibrations such as a creature burrowing." Please post if you know of a rule stating otherwise.

Dalebert
2016-08-25, 02:51 PM
I tend to agree with Saggo's interpretation myself and that's how I tend to run it at my table, i.e. barring extenuating circumstances, you can generally locate an invisible creature well enough to at least attack with disadvantage. That said, yes, it's clearly controversial based on the lengthy threads on this forum on the subject. Controversial simply means lots of people disagree. How right or wrong they are is unrelated to whether it's controversial.


Simple Definition of controversy

: argument that involves many people who strongly disagree about something : strong disagreement about something among a large group of people


Meanwhile, I don't think I've yet played under a DM that lets you auto-locate an invisible creature. However much you might agree with Saggo, I suggest you don't have any expectations that DMs are going to rule his way. From anecdotal experience, it's rare.

Waffle_Iron
2016-08-25, 03:14 PM
I'm not sure where this notion that Stealth should be ineffective against Tremorsense is coming from.



Stealth covers any attempt to conceal yourself from enemies, not just hiding yourself from view or hearing. Stepping softly, or in time with another rhythm in the ground would both be effective foils to Tremorsense locating you. I can even imagine specialised equipment helping, such as the thumpers from the Dune series or padded shoes.

Any motion or equipment that reduces vibrations, which is specifically what Tremorsense detect, could foil it. Any motion or equipment that generates additional vibrations could confuse it (like cross-chatter does for sound). I'll say it again; Tremorsense is just another mundane sense (or a heightening of an existing one) that allows a creature to locate vibrations in solid matter (not just surfaces). Like other senses, it can be foiled or confused and Stealth is the "foil or confuse the senses" skill.

I pretty much agree with your interpretation of this, with one wrinkle. The stealthing party would need to know they were attempting to stealth tremorsense.

As creatures which do not possess tremorsense ourselves, I don't believe it’s in our nature to automatically consider and attempt to overcome it.
That being said, if the stealthing party has a sense, I’d also assume they naturally include it in any stealth attempts.

Which makes me consider my position on darkvision and stealth… hmm…

JellyPooga
2016-08-25, 03:52 PM
Stealth does not do anything in terms of "obfuscating the senses"

You know what obfuscate means, right? I'm clearly not talking about literally throwing a shroud over someones head to foil their sight, though that could be one way to make a Stealth check. A Stealth check is any attempt to avoid being noticed, as you say; obfuscating oneself from your opponents senses (to expand upon my original statement, seeing as you've somehow managed to willfully misinterpret it in an attempt to discredit my argument). This can involve hiding behind something or in shadows, staying very quiet, moving outside of someones line of sight or any other activity (or lack thereof) to evade detection. If they've got senses that detect more than the human five, then a Stealth check also incorporates any mundane (i.e. non-magical) attempt to evade those too, not just sight or hearing.


Stealth flat out states you can't use it if you can be seen.

And where in the description of Tremorsense does it say that it allows you to see through solid rock? It doesn't even specifically allow you to locate a creature, only the origin of the vibrations it creates.


Next, you misinterpreted my point on Blindsight and Tremorsense.
I did?

I believe the RAI for Tremoresense follows this logic and provides a creature with Tremorsense the ability to perceive creatures

Then why don't Blindsense and Tremorsense use the same terminology? It'd be a lot easier and clearer to just copy/paste the rules and just change the qualifying statements than to write completely different paragraphs for the two abilities. I'm fairly sure they didn't get two different writers for two abilities that share page-space. Would you care to share your proof that the RAI support your belief?


"if you can be perceived, you can't Stealth because Stealth is the avoidance of being perceived."

Tremorsense does not say anything about allowing the creature to perceive anything. It allows you to locate and pinpoint, but not perceive. Blindsight, conversely, explicitly allows you to perceive your surroundings whether in the absence or presence of any other senses. Semantics, I know, but if the terminology used is to mean anything, do you not think that there ought to be a difference?


Tremorsense actually lays out in its description that it doesn't work on flying or incorporeal creatures; its stating the limitations of the ability. Notice how it doesn't include a caveat for Stealthing characters.

This entirely misses the point. It states that it doesn't work on flying or incorporeal creatures because they're not touching the ground and are therefore beyond the capabilities of the sense, even if they might be in range. Just as you might say that a burrowing creature is immune to being detected by regular sight due to light not passing through rock and dirt, even though under other circumstances you'd be able to see that far.

Very few abilities or rules address Stealth or Hidden creatures, including some that involve perception (e.g. every sense listed under Senses, pg.8-9 MM). Not including a caveat about those things doesn't prove anything.


As for your limitations on what "average joe" can and cannot perceive, you're making them up.

Well, no, not really. I'm just talking from personal experience. There are no guidelines to determine just how much solid rock and dirt is required to completely obfuscate someone from notice, but I'm fairly sure that most people can't see or hear through 60ft of the stuff, let alone accurately locate someone moving around. I have trouble casually hearing what people are saying through a couple of inches of wood and I don't know about you, but a good thick wall a foot thick is usually enough to make me completely unaware of someone the other side of it unless I've got an ear pressed up against it and even then I'd struggle. I'm talking about 60 such walls and an ability that can literally pinpoint the precise location of someone (well, any vibrations they make) anywhere within or in contact with that mass of rock and dirt.

Rules aside, that's an incredible sensory ability, but not an infallible one. If all it detects is the location of a source of vibrations (like it says in the description), then stepping softly or creating interference as I've described could confuse or foil that sense in the same way that sticking to the shadows or a bright flash or distraction might foil or confuse regular sight. Heck, just stand still. Boom, hidden. "Yeah, but even standing still you can make small vibrations" you cry...to which I'll respond; what do you think the Stealth check is for?

All that about humans detecting vibrations is entirely besides the point. I might allow a Perception check (passive or otherwise) to detect the presence (note, not the location) of a Purple Worm or Bullette passing underneath someone, because they're massive great creatures that you'd be hard pressed not to notice passing below, but Tremorsense can precisely locate someone merely walking on a connected surface up to 60ft away; far beyond the capability of any human (which is why they don't get Tremorsense). Unless, of course, you have some verifiable evidence of someone doing just that...?

JellyPooga
2016-08-25, 03:58 PM
I pretty much agree with your interpretation of this, with one wrinkle. The stealthing party would need to know they were attempting to stealth tremorsense.

As creatures which do not possess tremorsense ourselves, I don't believe it’s in our nature to automatically consider and attempt to overcome it.
That being said, if the stealthing party has a sense, I’d also assume they naturally include it in any stealth attempts.

Which makes me consider my position on darkvision and stealth… hmm…

I would tend to agree with you here, but as a GM I'd feel a bit harsh if a player said "I make a stealth check to cross the crater", rolled something god-like (e.g. 20+), only for me to say "nope, sorry, something detected you because you didn't specify that you were stealthing against Tremorsense. You are eaten by a grue".

Definitely something to consider, though.

RSP
2016-08-25, 04:46 PM
Here are the definitions of the abilities we're discussing for reference:

Blindsight:

"A monster with blindsight can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius.

Creatures without eyes, such as grimlocks and gray oozes, typically have this special sense, as do creatures with echolocation or heightened senses, such as bats and true dragons.

If a monster is naturally blind, it has a parenthetical note to this effect, indicating that the radius of its blindsight defines the maximum range of its perception."

Tremorsense:

"A monster with tremorsense can detect and pinpoint the origin of vibrations within a specific radius, provided that the monster and the source of the vibrations are in contact with the same ground or substance. Tremorsense can’t be used to detect flying or incorporeal creatures. Many burrowing creatures, such as ankhegs and umber hulks, have this special sense."

Notice how neither write up mentions anything about Stealth. Also notice how Tremorsense says nothing about there being a certain amount of vibration needed before it can be noticed.

I'm not saying Tremorsense allows a Bulette to know an elf is sneaking up I it from the north. It does however, allow it to know something is making vibrations, however slight, on the ground to the north, and per the ability "pinpoint the origin" of those vibrations.

Now, as stated, neither ability says anything about stealth, so applying RAW in this instance doesn't work, which is why I went with RAI.

If you read Blindsight as allowing for a creature to auto-notice a sneaking creature it otherwise wouldn't be able to see (say if the creature is Stealthed moving through magical darkness), then the same would apply to Tremorsense, which is how I read both abilities.

If you go by a strict reading of Blindsight, it doesn't do anything; every PC is able to "perceive its surroundings without relying on sight," that is, they can all hear, smell, feel, and taste. This is why I mentioned RAI. I believe the intent is that Blindsight allows you to notice creatures and objects within the range of the ability, you otherwise wouldn't be able to.

Likewise, Tremorsense, in my opinion RAI, is meant to identify vibrations with in range. So whereas a Bulette may not have the Passive Perception to see an invisible and Stealthed rogue approaching, it would be able to pinpoint the footsteps of said elf, and pinpoint its footsteps to know where the elf is. The Bulette would still have the disadvantage associated with the invisible elf being unseen, but it would know where it is.

RSP
2016-08-25, 05:36 PM
In response to the snarky comment about knowing what obfuscate means, yes, I do. I'm not sure you do though. For clarity, here was your usage:

"Stealth is the skill of obfuscating the senses"

This is not true. Stealth is the skill of avoiding notice. Obfuscate means:

"render obscure, unclear, or unintelligible."

Stealth does not render the senses of others 'obscure,' 'unclear,' or 'unintelligible' in D&D 5e. Nowhere is there any evidence that using Stealth in 5e allows a character to effect another creature's senses; quite the opposite, being 'sensed' negates Stealth attempts.

FYI if you had said "Stealth is the skill of obfuscating oneself" that would have worked better.

JellyPooga
2016-08-25, 05:37 PM
Notice how neither write up mentions anything about Stealth. Also notice how Tremorsense says nothing about there being a certain amount of vibration needed before it can be noticed.

Have you noted, yet, how Tremorsense doesn't detect anything except vibrations and their origin. It doesn't let you see, perceive, notice or even locate a creature; only the vibrations it might or might not be making.


I'm not saying Tremorsense allows a Bulette to know an elf is sneaking up I it from the north. It does however, allow it to know something is making vibrations, however slight, on the ground to the north, and per the ability "pinpoint the origin" of those vibrations.

Ok, so our Bulette senses the location of some vibrations. Now what? It interprets those vibrations as being a humanoid walking (in this case, our Elf), aka: lunch and goes hunting. Seems like a logical progression, right?

Let's take a different scenario; our Elf is hunting the Bulette, knows about its Tremorsense and doesn't want to be detected. So instead of walking along normally, he adopts a peculiar rhythm to his footfalls, occasionally swings from a branch, picks up and throws rocks at intermittent ranges and times and so forth. What does the Bulette sense? Vibrations on the surface. Great. What does it interpret them as? Who knows? It doesn't feel like a humanoid walking; that's normally an even rhythm at regular intervals. This noise is all over the shop. Maybe it will still go to investigate, but if the Elf is doing it right, he's making himself appear to the Bulettes Tremorsense as if he's something normal and natural; perhaps just a strong wind or a clatter of small game unworthy of the Bulettes attention. What sort of check would you call for to represent this Elfs attempt to conceal or confuse his presence? Deception, maybe? Perhaps Nature? Or perhaps, just perhaps, he might use the skill that is intended to mask ones presence from the senses of others...just maybe?

This goes back to Waffle_Irons post about knowing you're stealthing something with Tremorsense and why I largely agree with it. It is possible to foil Tremorsense; it's just a sensory input. You just have to know how. Some of the "normal" Stealth tricks, like walking quietly, would also apply to evading Tremorsense however, so I'd be loathe to call someone out on a Stealth check they didn't specifically say was intended to evade Tremorsense.


If you read Blindsight as allowing for a creature to auto-notice a sneaking creature it otherwise wouldn't be able to see (say if the creature is Stealthed moving through magical darkness), then the same would apply to Tremorsense, which is how I read both abilities.

For one, I don't allow Blindsight to auto-detect someone hidden. Depending on the source of the Blindsight, that too will probably have some kind of foil, just as any sense does, yes, even Truesight.


If you go by a strict reading of Blindsight, it doesn't do anything; every PC is able to "perceive its surroundings without relying on sight," that is, they can all hear, smell, feel, and taste. This is why I mentioned RAI. I believe the intent is that Blindsight allows you to notice creatures and objects within the range of the ability, you otherwise wouldn't be able to.

In the absence of sight, hearing, smell and touch, yeah, Blindsight allows you to perceive a creature. It doesn't say anywhere that a creature can't possibly hide from one with Blindsight. Just typing "anti echolocation" into google returned this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasound_avoidance as one result. Is it so hard to imagine that there might be other ways to avoid Blindsight or Tremorsense? Even ones that a humanoid might be able to learn?

I'm not saying every Joe-Rogue with Stealth proficiency should be able to evade Blindsight and Tremorsense by rolling 15 on his Stealth check; evading such senses should be hard and probably require specialised (maybe magical) equipment or knowledge, but it's possible.


The Bulette would still have the disadvantage associated with the invisible elf being unseen, but it would know where it is.

Correction; the Bulette would know where the Elf was when it last made a vibration, assuming that vibration was actually the Elf and not something else, like the half-orc standing 20ft away pounding the ground with a maul in each hand. Or the branch the Elf just threw 10ft in the other direction. Boy, that must be confusing, trying to sort out all those vibes...one might even say the Elf has a chance to hide with all that distraction going on.

As I've said before; nothing I can see in the RAW, nor imagine would be RAI indicates to me that any sense is supposed to be some kind of omniscience or god-sense (except, you know, the senses that gods have, I suppose). A sense is just a sense, regardless of what it detects and senses can be fooled and obfuscated and that's the purpose of the Stealth skill. No rules I've seen contradict this.

JellyPooga
2016-08-25, 05:57 PM
Stealth does not render the senses of others 'obscure,' 'unclear,' or 'unintelligible' in D&D 5e.

If English isn't your first language, I apologise in advance.

If I lay down in some long grass, I'm hiding from you, right? In 5ed terms, the long grass in this case is heavy obscurement and my laying down and keeping quiet is a Stealth check. Yes?

What have I actually done, though? If you look hard enough, the long grass doesn't cover me completely; you'll still see parts of me. I'm not behind a solid surface you can't possibly see through at all.

What I've done is use the concealment the grass provides to render your vision of me obscure and unintelligible, because your sensory perception of me cannot interpret the image before you as being "me"; your sense is obfuscated by my laying down.

When we...scratch that...When *I* talk about obfuscating a sense, it doesn't literally mean covering it or otherwise rendering it completely non-functional. Any action that confuses, misdirects or otherwise renders a sense "obscure, unclear or unintelligible" is an act of obfuscation.

Dictionary definitions aren't all there is to a language.

RSP
2016-08-25, 07:53 PM
On obfuscate:

"If I lay down in some long grass, I'm hiding from you, right? In 5ed terms, the long grass in this case is heavy obscurement and my laying down and keeping quiet is a Stealth check. Yes?"

In 5e terms, if you lay down in long grass you're attempting to hide. The long grass, assuming it otherwise fits the bill, could be considered heavy obscurement, and laying down and keeping quiet would be considered a Stealth check.

"What have I actually done, though? If you look hard enough, the long grass doesn't cover me completely; you'll still see parts of me. I'm not behind a solid surface you can't possibly see through at all.

What I've done is use the concealment the grass provides to render your vision of me obscure and unintelligible, because your sensory perception of me cannot interpret the image before you as being "me"; your sense is obfuscated by my laying down."

You have done nothing to my vision; it still works as good or as bad as it always has. Whether or not I see you through the grass does not mean my senses have weakened or strengthened; the senses, in this case, stay constant.

"When we...scratch that...When *I* talk about obfuscating a sense, it doesn't literally mean covering it or otherwise rendering it completely non-functional. Any action that confuses, misdirects or otherwise renders a sense "obscure, unclear or unintelligible" is an act of obfuscation."

If you punch me in my nose, causing my eyes to tear up, you've obfuscated my sight; my vision is less clear and doesn't work as well. What I would have been able to see before is now unintelligible. That would be obfuscating my senses, whereas hiding behind something might make you unseen, you haven't actually effected my senses.

Now in 5e, this all comes down to a die roll of Stealth vs Passive Perception.

In the example you give of dropping items on the ground to effective "Stealth" Tremorsense here are a few pertinent points of the rules:

"The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding."

Should go without saying that DM determines what counts and what doesn't. If you or your DM deem dropping items on the ground and taking non-rhythmic steps is hiding, then by all means proceed with your die roll

"You can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase."

I'd list hoping around purposefully dropping stuff as going against the idea of trying to hide. Dropping stuff, though hopefully not as dramatic as a falling vase, still makes noise, which, per the hiding rules, negates Stealth. But again, your table may see it differently.

I'd liken this to characters using Minor Illusion to create loud noises while another character tries to Stealth, or even better, making visual illusions of the Stealthing character moving around. Anyone observing the character would flat out see them; you wouldn't ask for a Stealth roll because they don't qualify for one as they can be seen. Now clearly you may confuse a guard in the area, and that guard may react to one of the illusions instead of the true character, but this wouldn't qualify as Stealth in 5e, per RAW.

Basically, increasing the stimulus, i.e. dropping things and creating vibrations on a surface within a creatures Tremorsense range, does nothing to negate a creature's ability to notice any one stimulus in 5e, unless specifically stated such as bright light causing disadvantage to Drow.

If you were at my table and you thought up something like this, and you were using in-character ability and knowledge, such as the elf in your post specifically hunting Bulettes, and came up with something like using Mage Hand to drop items randomly to throw off any Bulettes in the area, I'd try to come up with an in game response that served the good idea (maybe the Bulette reacts to one of the drops alerting you to its position, and saving you from its jump attack and a surprise effect), but I wouldn't use Stealth because it wouldn't apply because the vibrations would still be noticed and you would be clearly seen as you aren't trying to "hide."

Now the tree swinging just doesn't apply at all as it means there's no touching of the Tremorsensed surface. No Stealth needed because it's unnoticed anyway, just as if someone flew over the area.

phone dying so that's all I can respond to for now.

MaxWilson
2016-08-25, 11:13 PM
I pretty much agree with your interpretation of this, with one wrinkle. The stealthing party would need to know they were attempting to stealth tremorsense.

This here, exactly. Same thing applies to other senses, like smell. I'd let you use your Stealth proficiency to provide a bloodhound or a bear from finding you, but you'd need the right supplies and/or preparation, and an Intelligence (Stealth) roll that beats the beast's olfactory passive Wisdom (Perception) score.

Citan
2016-08-29, 10:47 AM
Of course Stealth works against it, because Stealth is the skill of obfuscating the senses, whether that be staying out of sight, remaining quiet, moving at the right time or whatever need be done in order to avoid detection and Tremorsense is just another sense. I've already discussed how Tremorsense could be foiled in a previous post.



You know what obfuscate means, right? I'm clearly not talking about literally throwing a shroud over someones head to foil their sight, though that could be one way to make a Stealth check. A Stealth check is any attempt to avoid being noticed, as you say; obfuscating oneself from your opponents senses (to expand upon my original statement, seeing as you've somehow managed to willfully misinterpret it in an attempt to discredit my argument). This can involve hiding behind something or in shadows, staying very quiet, moving outside of someones line of sight or any other activity (or lack thereof) to evade detection. If they've got senses that detect more than the human five, then a Stealth check also incorporates any mundane (i.e. non-magical) attempt to evade those too, not just sight or hearing.

Hey guys. ;)
I won't intervene in your debate because didn't have yet experience with such situations (thanks for the two sides of arguments though, many interesting thoughs in there).

However, since you seem so eager to enforce English respect Jelly (some would say "play on words"), I have to intervene: YOU are the wrong one here. ;)

To take your own examples, you are not obsfucating the senses itselves, you are obfuscating the informations its receive. Which is fairly different. You do not affect in any way the creature that tries to be aware of your presence, you just affect your own movements in a special way. That's the reason why you could succeed on Stealthing from it while an ally would fail miserably.
Difference is subtle but essential. ;)

Hence why saying "Stealth is the skill of obfuscating the senses" was just wrong.
So, before going all condescending on someone, maybe next time double-check your own wording? ;)
(By the way, your second wording in my quote seems much better to me: "obfuscating oneself". Because this one implies that it's you that you affect to achieve the desired result. You should have started with that ^^)

Well then... Carry on. ^^