Magic item question

[Roderick_BR]

My friend got Savages Species, and this item "Arms of the Naga" says that it doubles a character's Strength and Dexterity.

Any one knows what that means? If it actually doubles a character's Strength and Dexterity stats, it'll be too powerful for a non-epic item.

The item is around 58k gps, almost twice a belt of strength.

And while we're at it, what exacly this item does? What I understood is that it simply gives an extra arm.

[Emperor Tippy]

Savage Species would be the most broken book in existence except for Epic spell casting in the ELH.

ELH>Savage Species>Complete Chamipon

[Roderick_BR]

Deity-damnit! Thanks.

[PinkysBrain]

Duplicate does not mean double :) They just mean they are as strong and dexterous as "normal" arms.

It gives you 2 arms, useful if you have no arms ... less so when you do, in theory they can be used to hold a shield but an animated shield is a lot cheaper.

[Emperor Tippy]

Duplicate does not mean double :) They just mean they are as strong and dexterous as "normal" arms.

Yeah, I just went and checked. Your correct. Page 55 of SS if anyone is interested in the actual stats.

[Roderick_BR]

I really hope so, that itens sounds terrible broken.
I'm telling my friend that "doubling" means just adding another arm.

[Emperor Tippy]

It actually adds 2 other arms.

But trust me when I say pretty much everything in that book is broken. Be very careful about what you allow from it.

[PinkysBrain]

"doubling"
That's not the word it uses, it says duplicate.

[Roderick_BR]

Ohh... that's where my friend and I were getting confused... Duplicate as in "makes a str/dex copy of existing arms"... Now it's perfectly clear. Thanks.

[Iku Rex]

But trust me when I say pretty much everything in that book is broken. Like what?

(I'm afraid I don't trust you. :smallsmile:)

[Dhavaer]

Like what?

(I'm afraid I don't trust you. :smallsmile:)

Feral template and anthro- animals are the big ones.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

Like what?

(I'm afraid I don't trust you. :smallsmile:)

Would you trust him if I mentioned that he is one of the most rules-knowledgable people on these boards? And that I'm confident he can throw out 50 ways for a character to break the game, off the top of his head, without even trying?

If that doesn't help, well: Savage Species was one of the last books still really using the 3.0 system. Hence, stuff from there tends to be overpowered when mixed with the 3.5 system. Or, to give you an active example that a fellow player in one of my play-by-post games is using: Half-Minotaur Anthropomorphic Monkey. Look at what it gives you for +1 LA. And that's just a start. (The half-ogre is also way too good for +1 LA, for example.)

[Edit:] Ninja'd! What Dhavaer said.

[The_Snark]

The anthropomorphic animal tables were clearly written late at night, and never edited at all. Aside from balance issues, the stats for vipers go in oppposite order, and the squid and giant squid stat adjustments are reversed. And the balance is frequently horrible.

The feral template is horrifically overpowered, and the half-ogre's pretty bad too. Most of the other templates are harmless enough, although I managed to use the symbiotic template to fuse a halfling to a half-ogre to achieve what takes the thri-keen 4 levels to do, with better Strength and Large size to boot.

The monster classes need watching, too. Some of the outsider classes are overpowered at low levels, and could use some evening out (they lose potency at higher levels).

The transformative rituals can be broken beyond all reason. Their intended purpose is to allow (as is the example given) an elf to transform into an ogre, gaining the new form's abilities and level adjustment. It also works in reverse, meaning that if you were an ogre who turned into an elf, you'd get rid of that pesky LA and level adjustment. (At the cost of negative mental ability adjustments and mediocre physical stats.) But if you were, say, a mind flayer transformed into an elf...

...then you get a nice LA +0 and dump all those abberation hit dice, while retaining your mental ability scores. +8 Intelligence is pretty nice for a wizard, in exchange for the cost of the ritual and average physical stats.

Now imagine an elder brain or great wyrm dragon doing that.

Much of the stuff in Savage Species is actually pretty inoffensive, but it should be carefully watched nonetheless.

[Iku Rex]

Would you trust him if I mentioned that he is one of the most rules-knowledgable people on these boards?No.


If that doesn't help, well: Savage Species was one of the last books still really using the 3.0 system. Hence, stuff from there tends to be overpowered when mixed with the 3.5 system.The in-between nature of SS is a real problem, but I can't think of any rule that's unbalanced because of it.

Or, to give you an active example that a fellow player in one of my play-by-post games is using: Half-Minotaur Anthropomorphic Monkey. Look at what it gives you for +1 LA. And that's just a start. There is no half-minotaur in SS. (The one in Dragon 313 is generally considered to be unbalanced.)

Now, for the few other suggestions explaining why "pretty much everything" is "broken". (The_Snark isn't as bombastic, so I'll post a separate reply to his post)

The feral template is in need of errata, no question. Sadly WotC has never bothered with a real errata for SS.

The half-ogre is too strong at +1, but this was errataed in the later Races of Destiny. It's now +2.

Anthropomorphic animals are too good at times (druid bat...) but it's rarely truly game-breaking. The anthropomorphic baleen whale is the worst offender IIRC.

I don't see how a few unerrataed templates add up to this "pretty much everything is broken" claim. It's not like WotC is known for publishing quick and complete erratas for their other supplements.

[Iku Rex]

The feral template is horrifically overpowered, and the half-ogre's pretty bad too. Most of the other templates are harmless enough, although I managed to use the symbiotic template to fuse a halfling to a half-ogre to achieve what takes the thri-keen 4 levels to do, with better Strength and Large size to boot.The half-ogre is a giant* and can't be used for the symbiotic creature template. I don't really see what you accomplished with the halfling - half-ogre mix anyway. (?)

*See table, though text suggests otherwise. Latest version in Races of Destiny is clearly defined as a giant.


The monster classes need watching, too. Some of the outsider classes are overpowered at low levels, and could use some evening out (they lose potency at higher levels).True. Some aren't 100% fine-tuned (ghaele...), but it's a minor and usually temporary problem.

The transformative rituals can be broken beyond all reason. Their intended purpose is to allow (as is the example given) an elf to transform into an ogre, gaining the new form's abilities and level adjustment. It also works in reverse, meaning that if you were an ogre who turned into an elf, you'd get rid of that pesky LA and level adjustment. (At the cost of negative mental ability adjustments and mediocre physical stats.) But if you were, say, a mind flayer transformed into an elf...

...then you get a nice LA +0 and dump all those abberation hit dice, while retaining your mental ability scores. +8 Intelligence is pretty nice for a wizard, in exchange for the cost of the ritual and average physical stats. I'm not sure which one of the (very much optional) rituals in SS you're talking about, or how you're accomplishing the transformation. Could you post a more specific example of the starting creature, final creature and cost?

[The_Snark]

The half-ogre is a giant* and can't be used for the symbiotic creature template. I don't really see what you accomplished with the halfling - half-ogre mix anyway. (?)

*See table, though text suggests otherwise. Latest version in Races of Destiny is clearly defined as a giant.

The point was to get four arms and a large strength bonus. I hadn't noticed the type inconsistency, though. Ah, well, the whole point of that game was that we were playing horrible caricatures of players, whose characters were either munchkins or some other stereotype. Glossing over rules (and the half-ogre errata) would not have been out of character for them. Our other meleeist was a feral anthropomorphic baleen whale.


True. Some aren't 100% fine-tuned (ghaele...), but it's a minor and usually temporary problem.
I'm not sure which one of the (very much optional) rituals in SS you're talking about, or how you're accomplishing the transformation. Could you post a more specific example of the starting creature, final creature and cost?

True, it is all optional, and it's definitely the sort of thing a sensible DM would usually rule out, because the process is cumbersome and hinges on the character starting as a powerful race (or having that as part of the backstory. The ritual used, I believe, is the Wish ritual; I don't have the book with me at the moment, so I can't really give a precise example at the moment.

Oh, yes... the Earth Reaver spell was interesting, since it had an area of 20 ft +10 ft/level. It was errata'ed in Spell Compendium, though, so it's no longer as army-destroying. Not broken, exactly, but it was possibly unbalanced.

[Fawsto]

Hmmm.. I am checking this book right now... One more book to my "Forbidden" colection. Thank ya.

[Ramza00]

DON'T FORBID SAVAGE SPECIES.

There are some really good ideas in there, and the racial progressions of classes allow you to play classes you normally won't.

That said start from the perspective, if it is from Savage Species DM must double check it thoroughly before he lets it anywhere near his game.

[Fawsto]

ya see... I am bit cautious with splatbooks, meaning that there are many books that I took a look and decided to not use... The quintessential series are an example, of course, the ideas are good, but they, in my opinion, overpower each class. But in relation with SE, there are many "options" that would umbalance the things around if one of the players decide to go as a core class... Unfortunatly, I am much more with core things than splaty. It is not the books, it is me, understand?

And I took a serious look at teh book. For instance.

[Ramza00]

Well I love options, things balance wise should be considered on a case by case basis. 1st party or 3rd party.

------------------------------------

Don't have my books on me but the illithid example gave me a nice flavor idea. A king and a succubus sleep together, they sire a child a male incubus. Twenty years pass. The male incubus once reaching adult hood, decides to forsake his demon heritage to turn into a mortal for only mortal heirs can inherit and he plans to take over his father's kingdom in a Mordred/King Arthur flavor. (Also he wants to abandon his Incubus racial hd due to the evil and chaotic subtypes which will be detectable by paladins).

Oh his class will be a sorcerer, according to the transformation ritual he gets the +16 Cha via RAW (No DM will allow this I know, but the flavor of the character and back story will remain). Will take the Fiendblooded Prc later retooled flavor wise so instead of a Fiend (which can be devil or demon, but fiends are often associated with devils in D&D) it will be Devil focused.

Kicks but as an upstart brat with huge charisma, and fullcasting.

Perhaps as a BBEG instead of a player, the higher DCs/spells slots won't be a big of an issue, it will boost the cr some but as a DM you should adjust the cr to the party.

[Arbitrarity]

*Sees 20'th level sorceror with 52 charisma*

*cries*

What? It's only DC 31+ spell level. And he only has 10 9'th level spells/day.

Right?

[Ramza00]

*Sees 20'th level sorceror with 52 charisma*

*cries*

What? It's only DC 31+ spell level. And he only has 10 9'th level spells/day.

Right?
Is more afraid of the Wizard 3/Master Specialist 10/Innate of Seven Fold Veil 7.

But what happens if the Sorcerer doesn't use Saves or Dies? What would happen if you use it just for bonus spells.

That said I said in the above post no DM will allow it. I wouldn 't allow it. I may allow a Cha boost of 2 or 4 due to the ritual cost due to the xp you used.

Also it would be 50 Charisma
18 Base+16 Racial+5 levels+5 Tome/Wish+6 Item=50 Charisma

[Bassetking]

Is more afraid of the Wizard 3/Master Specialist 10/Innate of Seven Fold Veil 7.

But what happens if the Sorcerer doesn't use Saves or Dies? What would happen if you use it just for bonus spells.

That said I said in the above post no DM will allow it. I wouldn 't allow it. I may allow a Cha boost of 2 or 4 due to the ritual cost due to the xp you used.

Also it would be 50 Charisma
18 Base+16 Racial+5 levels+5 Tome/Wish+6 Item=50 Charisma

Only if you don't advance the Age catergory, Ramza. With an Advanced Age, it increases to 52.

[Tor the Fallen]

Also it would be 50 Charisma
18 Base+16 Racial+5 levels+5 Tome/Wish+6 Item=50 Charisma

+2 age.

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