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Tiktakkat
2016-09-06, 11:10 PM
Inspired by the merged goblin race of Birthright, this presents a single class for all goblinoids, with sub-sub-race options for blues, snow goblins, and norkers, then racial paragons for all of them.
Note: The sub-sub-races, with the exception of norkers, can be combined, so you can get a blue snow bugbear and the like.

Goblinoid

Goblinoids all start the same but may grow and change into other subtypes.

+2 Dexterity, –2 Charisma.
Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, –4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 3/4 those of Medium characters.
A goblinoid’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Stonecunning: This ability grants a goblinoid a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A goblinoid who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a goblinoid can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A goblinoid can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. Goblinoids have a sixth sense about stonework, an innate ability that they get plenty of opportunity to practice and hone in their underground homes.
+1 racial bonus to attack rolls against creatures with the dwarf and elf subtypes: Goblinoids are trained in the special combat techniques that allow them to fight their common enemies more effectively.
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison and disease: Goblinoids live in filth and have built up a strong resistance to it.
+2 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks.
+2 racial bonus on Animal Handlings and Ride checks with dogs, wolves, and hounds.
Light Sensitivity: Goblinoids are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.
Automatic Languages: Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Human, Orc.
Favored Class: Rogue.

Goblinoid Racial Class

Goblinoid
HD d8



Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Reflex Save
Will Save
Special Abilities


1st
+0
+0
+2
+0
Goblin


2nd
+1
+0
+3
+0
Hobgoblin, medium size, no light sensitivity, martial training


3rd
+2
+1
+3
+1
Bugbear, powerful build



REQUIREMENTS
Requirement: Goblinoid.

Class Skills (2 + Int modifier per level): Climb (Str), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Ride (Dex), and Spot (Wis).

CLASS FEATURES:
All of the following are class features of a goblin character
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Goblinoids gain proficiency with all simple weapons and with light armor and shields.

Goblin (Ex): A 1st level you are a goblin, aka spear fodder for low level adventurers. Good luck surviving to take another level.

Hobgoblin (Ex): At 2nd level you become a hobgoblin. You are now spear fodder in the armies of BBEGs. While still unlikely to survive to take another level you at least get to beat up goblins until you die.

Medium Size (Ex): At 2nd level your size increases to medium. Your ability scores do not change but all your equipment changes to match your new size.

No Light Sensitivity (Ex): At 2nd level you no longer suffer penalties in bright light.

Martial Training (Ex): At 2nd level you gain proficiency in all martial weapons and with medium armor.

Bugbear (Ex): At 3rd level you become a bugbear. You are much hairier, and way more violent and intimidating. You are still just a goblinoid though, so don't expect too much from life.

Powerful Build (Ex): At 3rd level your size increases enough to let you function in many ways as if you were one size category larger. Whenever you are subject to a size modifier or a special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), you are treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to you. You are also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect you. You can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, your space and reach remain those of a medium creature. The benefits of this stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change your size category.

Sub-Sub-Racial Substitution Levels

Blue
Blue goblinoids possess inherent psionic abilities.

HD d8



Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Reflex Save
Will Save
Special Abilities


1st
+0
+0
+2
+0
Blue, Better Living Quarters, Naturally Psionic, Smart Not Quick



Blue (Ex): This replaces Goblin status. You have innate psionic abilities, preferred status and increased envy.

Better Living Quarters (Ex): You lose your racial bonus to poison and disease saving throws.

Naturally Psionic (Ex): You gain 1 bonus power point.

Smart Not Quick (Ex): You gain a +2 Intelligence ability modifier, and a -2 Dexterity ability modifier.

Snow
Snow goblinoids are adapted to arctic climates.

HD d8



Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Reflex Save
Will Save
Special Abilities


1st
+0
+0
+
+0
Snow, Cliff Climber, Frozen Thoughts, Menacing Pouch, Plague Free Home



Snow (Ex): This replaces Goblin status.

Cliff Climber (Ex): You gain a Climb speed of 20 feet. You have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.

Frozen Thoughts (Ex): You gain a -2 Intelligence ability modifier.

Menacing Pouch (Ex): You gain a +4 racial modifier to Intimidate checks.

Plague Free Home (Ex): You lose your racial bonus to poison and disease saving throws.

Norker

Norkers are goblins that devolve into heavily armored beasts.

HD d8



Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Reflex Save
Will Save
Special Abilities


2nd
+1
+1
+3
+0
Norker, A Bit Too Beastly, Biting Commentary, Brute Hide, Mine Your Own Business, Savage Mind, Tough Enough



Norker (Ex): This replaces Hobgoblin status. You are a shock troop by form rather than training.

A Bit Too Beastly (Ex): You lose your racial bonus to Handle Animal and Ride checks.

Biting Commentary (Ex): You gain a bite attack doing 1d4 damage as a natural weapon.

Brute Hide (Ex): You gain +5 natural armor.

Mine Your Own Business (Ex): You lose Stonecunning.

Savage Mind (Ex): You gain a -2 Intelligence and a -2 Wisdom ability modifiers.

Tough Enough (Ex): You gain Toughness and Improved Toughness as bonus feats.

Sub-Race Paragons

Goblin Paragon
You are more gobliny than other goblins. Why this is a good thing is unknown.

HD d8



Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Reflex Save
Will Save
Special Abilities


1st
+0
+0
+2
+2
Nightstalker, pack hunter


2nd
+1
+0
+3
+3
Treacherous blow


3rd
+2
+1
+3
+3
Ability boost (Dex +2)



Class Skills (2 + Int modifier per level): Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).

CLASS FEATURES:
All of the following are class features of a goblin character
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Goblins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light and medium armor and shields.

Nightstalker (Ex): A 1st level, you gain low-light vision. You can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. You retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.

Pack Hunter (Ex): At 1st level, your racial bonus to Hide, Move Silently, and Handle Animal increases to +4.

Treacherous Blow (Ex): At 2nd level, you gain +1d6 sneak attack.

Ability Boost (Ex): At 3rd level, your Dexterity score increases by 2 points.

Hobgoblin Paragon

You are more hobgobliny than other hobgoblins. You whip anyone who has issues with this.



Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Reflex Save
Will Save
Special Abilities


1st
+1
+2
+2
+0
Martial blood, respect your authority


2nd
+2
+3
+3
+0
Whip it good


3rd
+3
+3
+3
+1
Ability boost (Str +2)



Class Skills (2 + Int modifier per level): Climb (Str), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).

CLASS FEATURES:
All of the following are class features of a hobgoblin character
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Hobgoblins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with whips, and with light and medium armor and shields.

Martial Blood (Ex): A 1st level, you may treat all of your goblinoid racial levels and paragon levels as fighter levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats, and as initiator levels for the purpose of qualifying and using martial maneuvers and stances.

Respect Your Authority (Ex): At 1st level, you gain a racial bonus of +4 to intimidate.

Whip It Good (Ex): At 2nd level, when holding a whip you may add your BAB and Str modifiers to Intimidate checks that you make.

Ability Boost (Ex): At 3rd level, your Strength score increases by 2 points.

Bugbear Paragon

You are more bugbeary than other bugbears. You eat anyone who has anything mouthy to say about this.

HD d12



Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Reflex Save
Will Save
Special Abilities


1st
+1
+2
+2
+0
Nightstalker, lone hunter


2nd
+2
+3
+3
+1
Don't get even get mad


3rd
+3
+3
+3
+1
Ability boost (Str +2)



Class Skills (2 + Int modifier per level): Climb (Str), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).

CLASS FEATURES:
All of the following are class features of a bugbear character
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Bugbears are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light and medium armor and shields.

Nightstalker (Ex): A 1st level, you gain low-light vision. You can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. You retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.

Lone Hunter (Ex): At 1st level, your racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently increases to +4, and you gain a +2 racial bonus to Listen and Spot.

Don't Get Even, Get Mad (Ex): At 2nd level, you no longer feel the need to hold anything back when you get upset. You gain the ability to rage once per day (or one additional time per day if you already have a rage ability). This is identical to the effect of a barbarian's rage ability. If you have improved rage abilities (such as the barbarian class features greater rage, indomitable will, tireless rage, or might rage), those improvements apply to the rage ability granted by the bugbear paragon class as well.

Ability Boost (Ex): At 3rd level, your Strength score increases by 2 points.


Sub-Sub-Racial Paragons

Blue Paragon

You are so blue you are banned by many Lawful religions.

HD d6



Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Reflex Save
Will Save
Special Abilities


1st
+0
+0
+2
+2
Deep vision, psicrystal affinity


2nd
+1
+0
+3
+3
Psionic body, +1 manifester level


3rd
+2
+1
+3
+3
Ability boost (Int +2), +1 manifester level



Class Skills (2 + Int modifier per level): Autohypnosis (Wis), Hide (Dex), Knowledge (psionics) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Wis), Spot (Wis), Use Psionic Device (Cha)

CLASS FEATURES:
All of the following are class features of a blue goblinoid character
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Blue goblinoids are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light and medium armor and shields.

Deep Vision (Ex): A 1st level, you gain Deep Vision as a bonus feat. If you already have that feat you gain any Psionic feat of your choice.

Psicrystal Affinity (Ex): At 1st level, you gain Psicrystal Affinity as a bonus feat. If you already have that feat, you gain Improved Psicrystal.

Psionic Body (Ex): At 2nd level, you gain Psionic Body as a bonus feat. If you already have that feat, you gain any Psionic feat of your choice.

Ability Boost (Ex): At 3rd level, your Intelligence score increases by 2 points.

Snow Paragon

You have more words for "ice" than spells with that in their name in Frostburn.

Snow

HD d8



Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Reflex Save
Will Save
Special Abilities


1st
+0
+2
+2
+0
Icewalker, snowsight


2nd
+1
+3
+3
+0
Snowfare


3rd
+2
+3
+3
+1
Ability boost (Con +2)



Class Skills (2 + Int modifier per level): Climb (Str), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Wis), Spot (Wis)

CLASS FEATURES:
All of the following are class features of a snow goblinoid character
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Snow goblinoids are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light and medium armor and shields.

Icewalker (Ex): A 1st level, you ignore all movement penalties associated with snow or ice on the ground. You always succeed on Balance checks against effects caused by ice or by spells or special abilities with the cold descriptor.

Snowsight (Sp): At 1st level, you gain spellsight as a spell-like ability with a caster level equal to your level in goblinoid, snow, and snow paragon.

Snowfare (Ex): At 2nd level, you gain your choice of the following:

Icy Rage: You gain Frozen Berserker as a bonus feat.

Frozen Betrayal: You may trade 2d6 sneak attack for 1d6 cold damage. This damage may be inflicted against creatures immune to sneak attack, provided your attack would otherwise qualify as a sneak attack.

Channel Snow: As a swift action, you can your weapon with the chill of the environment. On a successful hit this does an extra 1d6 cold damage. If you wield a weapon of blue ice, you do an extra 2d6 cold damage.

Ability Boost (Ex): At 3rd level, your Constitution score increases by 2 points.

Norker Paragon
You are norkier than the Great Leader.

HD d12



Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Reflex Save
Will Save
Special Abilities


1st
+1
+2
+2
+0
Claws, scent


2nd
+2
+3
+3
+0
Armored


3rd
+3
+3
+3
+1
Ability boost (Con +2)



Class Skills (2 + Int modifier per level): Climb (Str), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis)

CLASS FEATURES:
All of the following are class features of a norker character
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Norkers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light and medium armor and shields.

Claws (Ex): At 1st level, you gain 2 claws as secondary natural attacks doing 1d3 damage each.

Scent (Ex): A 1st level, you gain the scent ability. You can detect opponents by scent within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range increases to 60 feet; if downwind, it drops to 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at triple normal range. When you detect a scent, the exact location of the source is not revealed—only its presence somewhere within range. You can take a move action to note the direction of the scent. Whenever you comes within 5 feet of the source, you pinpoint the source’s location.

Armored (Ex): At 2nd level, your natural armor increases by 2 points.

Ability Boost (Ex): At 3rd level, your Constitution score increases by 2 points.

Zaydos
2016-09-07, 03:53 AM
Question #1: Is this at all intended for PC use?

Question #2: Can I be a goblinoid without taking levels in the racial class?

Because the base racial traits are quite usable, lets compare to a halfling.

+2 Dex they both get it. -2 Cha is much better than -2 Str if you're going melee, though Small size will penalize you there, and not much better if you're going casting.

Small size. The same.

Base speed: 10-ft better.

Darkvision 60 ft, better than Low-Light. Not by the hugest margin, but it is better.

Stonecunning, +1 to hit elves and dwarves, skill and saves bonuses. And light sensitivity.

Halfling gets +2 to the same number of skills (but without circumstantials on 2 of them) but goblin's still end up a little better. They get +1 racial bonus to saving throws and another +2 versus fear this is better than the goblin's save bonuses. They also get +1 with thrown weapons which is probably better than +1 to hit elves and dwarves.

Overall... goblins are ahead by a stonecunning. They make good melee rogues, though not necessarily better than a human. They'd work as an LA +0 race.

Now let's look at the class.

1st level is almost Commoner. Its skill list is a little better, it gets d8 instead of d4 hit points, and +2 Ref so it's not commoner but without class features it's sort of dead. It's like putting 1/2 LA without buy off on a race that's strong but not the strongest really. Hobgoblin is worse. I mean if you started with medium instead of small size and no light sensitivity... Well you'd be a better rogue than a wild elf and probably need to cut stonecunning. That said with 2 humanoid hit dice you're pretty much a level behind everyone else. Bugbear is better since powerful build is a level worth of class features (and possibly then some).

Blue is +2 Int, -2 Dex, -2 Cha or +2 Int, -2 Cha? It's small size and +2 Int which would be really good on a caster if it didn't require a level and your race for it and nothing else in return except a level (no BAB, no meaningful class features, no meaningful skills).

Snow might be worth taking over goblin (-2 Int for a Climb speed), though with the archetypes goblin is good at you need a lot of skill points so -2 Int hurts, maybe if you're going Bugbear but then you're paying 3 levels to be a worse goliath with climb.

Norker loses a lot (you're now at +2 Dex, -2 Int, Wis, and Cha) but +5 AC, an extra attack each round, +3 hp and half of a Con bonus... An interesting choice and gives you a good option for a mounted combatant. Worth the level, though again you're actually taking two. Still +5 AC and full armor is bigger than people give it credit for (if you're going for the full AC suite Core seems to expect it's roughly equal to between a 25-75% miss chance at all levels depending upon opponent of your CR compared to not having the +5). Norker Bugbear for Small size + Powerful Build is probably the way to go.

Goblin Paragon: 3 levels for +2 Dex, +2 Hide/Move Silently, and 1d6 sneak attack. +2 Dex is good (+1 to attack, AC, saves, and skills yay), but unless the DM is using fractional BAB I'd take rogue over this because 18 skill points beat +2 to 3 skills and the +2 Dex once you throw in +1d6 sneak attack and loss of 1 point of BAB. Tier 3+ just ignore the paragon levels but that's ok.

Hobgoblin Paragon: Is imperious command allowed? I mean even then there are better options, but I do get a crazy Intimidate modifier. That's all, though. +2 Str and full BAB puts it as usable once you throw in counting for initiating, but it's also your 3rd-5th level. Assuming the initiator levels here stack directly with those of warblade (as opposed to how Crusader levels do) you've got 2-3 less maneuvers, 1 less BAB, 1 less maneuver readied, and 1 less stance for +2 Str and admittedly a huge bonus to intimidate (eventually +30). Either you find a way to break intimidate (it can be done) or you're just sort of worse. Compared to fighter it looks better, but you're still trading 2-3 feats, for +1 damage, and a huge bonus to Intimidate. The huge bonus to intimidate is not good (it skews it into a either they no-sell it or are affected, and either you have a way to shatter it or it's not worth using) though you can break intimidate and get it in that binary anyway with a little effort.

Bugbear Paragon: Again shapes up better. +2 to 4 skills (meaningful ones), rage 1/day, and +2 Str have purposes. You're also now 6th level. Compared to Core Barbarian you've get +1 damage, powerful build, and stealth. The barbarian has +1 rage, fast movement, Improved Uncanny Dodge, and a PrC level. If the Barbarian hasn't PrC'd out you're doing pretty good because Powerful Build is good, if they have it's closer and note that Half-Orc Barbarian matches your strength so it becomes -1 to hit and +0 damage which makes you not look as good (-1 to hit translates to -2 damage from PA which means you've lost the damage bonus from Powerful Build... that said the tripping bonus is more significant anyway). Didn't mention the much better Reflex save (or the worse hp). Still I'd give this to the Bugbear. Now of course (Pouncing) Whirling Frenzy Barbarian beats it.

Blue Paragon: So I'm trading 2 manifester levels for Small size, +2 Int, and 3 bonus feats (compared to say Dragonborn Grey Elf). The extra hit points are nice and the deal is pretty good at 4th level. I'd not be taking Deep Vision on my own but it's +2 hp. The sheer amount of HP and that psionics is more forgiving to casting level loss makes this at least tempting (small size is useful). I'd probably go Dragonborn Grey Elf over it (better senses or freebie flight) but if I couldn't get Dragonborn Star Elf I'd consider it. I mean it really is a good number of hit points at 4th level (13, where psion only has 14 + Con, so it's a good 50%), of course those 11-13 PP you're losing could be used for 55-65 temp hp. Actually yeah it's looking less tempting. It does pay dividends long term, but it's 20-50% of your PP for +2 to save DCs. Ultimately I'd not go paragon unless it was high level. Still close and an option.

Snow Paragon: Icewalk and Snowsight are very situational. Icy Rage I assume is Frozen Berserker again situational but if its an ice campaign... you're losing a point of BAB for this. Frozen Betrayal is this a you make this choice and its permanent, or you can choose per attack? You aren't getting sneak attack so I'm capped at +8d6 and there's Penetrating Strike which is just better. The last ability is probably the best but where the 1st level is useful it won't be and vice versa. The +2 Con is nice, but it's at best a secondary stat and doesn't support the first 2 levels like Bugbear Paragon's +2 Str. Over all it's anti-synergistic and doesn't quite know where it's going. I can't say how important Ice Walk plus Snowsight is so I can't say how it shapes up to Dwarf Paragon, but Dwarf Paragon has trouble comparing to low op fighter (though I throw it on my char I make for 'wait I can do tomb of horrors' the person talking about running it always ended up procrastinating to never getting to it).

Norker: I'd take this. I have no critiques here.

Overall:

Again is this intended for PCs? If so drop the Stonecunning and drop the first level. Snow Goblin and Blue become awkward then and something will have to be done about that. Make the hobgoblin/bugbear full BAB, and drop norker nat armor to +3 because it's not paying with the dead level. Bugbear becomes a strong choice (2 levels of warrior to get Powerful Build) but not dominatingly so. The others become playable. For Blues it becomes 'what's your standard psion race?' Or... do you have Dragonborn Gray Elf Elf Paragon Elven Generalist Wizards? Because that'd be stronger than the Blue Paragon if Blue was LA +0. Other option is to make it be +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con, -2 Cha, and give them 2-3 power points and drop the level cost, and you've got something close to balanced. Snow is also a bit of an issue because climb speed is useful, but again are you a skill monkey? Then the -2 Int hurts. If not the -2 Int and lack of skill points probably means all you're doing is climbing and while climb speed is useful for in combat climbing, you still actually don't want to do that very often and it becomes obsoleted quick.

If this isn't intended for PCs the balance doesn't really matter, though in that case the paragon classes feel a little odd, but hey good for you.

Tiktakkat
2016-09-07, 12:44 PM
Question #1: Is this at all intended for PC use?

Sure.

Question #2: Can I be a goblinoid without taking levels in the racial class?

As conceived, no.
It is intended to replace the default goblinoids.
Instead of a "goblin warrior 1" you have a "goblinoid 1."
Instead of a "hobgoblin fighter 1" (with the LA +1), you have a "goblinoid 2".
Instead of a "bugbear" (with 3 humanoid HD), you have a "goblinoid 3".


Because the base racial traits are quite usable, lets compare to a halfling.

Overall... goblins are ahead by a stonecunning. They make good melee rogues, though not necessarily better than a human. They'd work as an LA +0 race.

That is what I was going for.


Now let's look at the class.

1st level is almost Commoner. Its skill list is a little better, it gets d8 instead of d4 hit points, and +2 Ref so it's not commoner but without class features it's sort of dead. It's like putting 1/2 LA without buy off on a race that's strong but not the strongest really. Hobgoblin is worse. I mean if you started with medium instead of small size and no light sensitivity... Well you'd be a better rogue than a wild elf and probably need to cut stonecunning. That said with 2 humanoid hit dice you're pretty much a level behind everyone else. Bugbear is better since powerful build is a level worth of class features (and possibly then some).

That is what I intended for goblin and bugbear, but not what I wanted for hobgoblin.


Blue is . . .

Total should be +2 Int, -2 Cha.
Yes, a caster was my intent.
I didn't want it THAT much better than a pure goblin, but I see what you mean.


Snow might be worth taking over goblin . . ..

Pretty much.
One thing on all of this is that goblinoids are supposed to be rather second class anyway, but not THAT 2nd class.


Norker loses a lot . . .

Norkers are a bit of a side trek for goblinoids. I wasn't considering allowing the norker + bugbear combo, but if that would be an interesting option then why not.


Goblin Paragon:

Thus my comment as to why being more goblin is useful.
As it goes, I think ALL of these would work much better with fractional BAB/saves, or just a more integrated BAB/save progression, but I wasn't sure about writing it up that way. (It would look like the ghoul/ghast progression in Libris Mortis then, with the early levels being goblinoid sub-race, and the higher levels being paragons of said sub-races.)
Of course standard paragon classes don't get that, so it is equal suffering for everyone.


Hobgoblin Paragon:

Yes on imperious command, and that was my intent with initiator levels. The thing is, I'm not really familiar with Tome of Battle but I know others are, so I figured I should account for it.
For the rest, again, that was my intent - they are good at bullying, but not particularly overwhelming.


Bugbear Paragon: Again shapes up better.

Bugbears are where goblinoids start to be relevant, so they do wind up a bit more than the rest.


Blue Paragon: So I'm trading 2 manifester levels for Small size, +2 Int, and 3 bonus feats (compared to say Dragonborn Grey Elf).

I figured that.
Blues were difficult to fit into the paragon structure of "some sense improvement, some skill improvement, an actual ability, and an ability boost". So I went with the bonus feats, and hoped they would produce some useful synergy.


Snow Paragon:

To me that's sort of the issue with climate-terrain themed races in general: they get more of what they are already in.
Yes, Icy Rage is Frozen Berserker.
The three abilities are meant as a 1 time choice - theoretically goblins take the sneak attack, hogboblins for the cold channeling, and bugbears take the rage.


Norker: I'd take this. I have no critiques here.

Cool.


Overall:

Again is this intended for PCs?

Mostly it was for NPC opponents, but theoretically open to PCs if they want to go that way.


If so drop the Stonecunning and drop the first level. Snow Goblin and Blue become awkward then and something will have to be done about that. Make the hobgoblin/bugbear full BAB, and drop norker nat armor to +3 because it's not paying with the dead level. Bugbear becomes a strong choice (2 levels of warrior to get Powerful Build) but not dominatingly so. The others become playable. For Blues it becomes 'what's your standard psion race?' Or... do you have Dragonborn Gray Elf Elf Paragon Elven Generalist Wizards? Because that'd be stronger than the Blue Paragon if Blue was LA +0. Other option is to make it be +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con, -2 Cha, and give them 2-3 power points and drop the level cost, and you've got something close to balanced. Snow is also a bit of an issue because climb speed is useful, but again are you a skill monkey? Then the -2 Int hurts. If not the -2 Int and lack of skill points probably means all you're doing is climbing and while climb speed is useful for in combat climbing, you still actually don't want to do that very often and it becomes obsoleted quick.

Well, I do want the "dead level" drag for "standard NPC goblinoids available.
What if . . . PC goblinoids got an effect like Legacy Champions of +1 level to existing class feature? Even though they don't actually HAVE existing class features, they get to select a class and claim the features? (Or be weird and take a character level to start, then take the race at 2nd level.) That would allow hobgoblins and bugbears to wind up with full BAB, blues to get a manifester level to start, regular goblins to pick up the rogue (or whatever), and snow goblins to set up for however big they want to grow.
From there, the fractional BAB/save stuff is as I noted above, and while not written that way, everyone should note it is pretty much intended. (That, or I do the ghoul/ghast style rewrite for everything.)
If Blues still seem a bit weak, and I would note that those are the "standard" racial ability modifiers they get - +2 Int, -2 Cha, small but no Dex bonus, then they could get the Dex bonus back. Otherwise they just gain the other goblinoid modifiers, which may not make them the optimization choice, but they still aren't awful, and they can decide if the manifester level is worth being paragons of blue-ness.


If this isn't intended for PCs the balance doesn't really matter, though in that case the paragon classes feel a little odd, but hey good for you.

They do, but I was looking at ways of going "more monster, less PC class" for NPC design, and the paragon class concept fit that for me.

Thanks for the feedback. :smallsmile:

Zaydos
2016-09-07, 01:35 PM
I'd say if you want to keep goblins having to take a level in it increase the BAB to +1/level (matching that default Goblin Warrior) and call it that. You don't want to make them give features at which point it's just class on an alternate chassis (and only taken if it's a better chassis), and would either still lose BAB or be not just features but... um gestalting it. Also with no Dex penalty Blue needs an ML hit or will be the top choice, that said you could probably do like Darksun Campaign setting and give them 3-4 PP and 1 racial power known, they'd lose a lot late game, but be only a little behind early game.

For the Snow Paragon my question wasn't 'Do I choose bonus feat, sneak attack thing, or bad frost weapon on each attack' but 'do I choose to trade sneak attack dice with the sneak attack thing on each attack or do I have to trade them when I get the level' (the latter is just shooting yourself in the foot, the former is an alternate to penetrating strike).

Tiktakkat
2016-09-07, 02:22 PM
That is simplest.
I guess it is the retro impulse in me insisting that "ordinary" goblins get a bit of extra suckitude at 1st level for being goblins, and thus losing the +1 BAB.
So just full BAB progression on the racial class.

What about throwing a free Hidden Talent at the Blue racial level? Some more PP plus the starting power, so they are running around being psionically active right from the start.

As for the snow goblinoids, I misread your question.
The intent is that it functions like the various Ambush Feats - you may choose on each particular attack to trade sneak attack damage for cold damage.