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Zaydos
2016-09-09, 11:20 PM
Welcome. Where are the seven PrCs you ask? Well the challenge is just beginning. I have forgotten how to write PrCs, or I feel like I have. So I have decided that over the next 7 days I will make 7 PrCs, 1 a day. My self-limitations are I am not allowed to take pen to paper so to speak (type to MSWord?) on any of the PrCs for this challenge before the day they will be written begins and that I will make 1 a day for 7 days each one within a 24 hour frame (12 AM to 12 AM). I am allowed to modify afterwards but they must be in a functionally complete state within that first 24 hour period.

So why am I posting this? Well first and foremost motivation. If I go public with my resolve and then back out I will feel shamed in front of my peer group and shame in front of peer group is bad and therefore a reason to make sure I go through with it. So yes I am using you to psychologically manipulate myself. I am sorry for this breach of ethics. The second reason, however, is more up and up. While I will not be taking requests I am perfectly fine with taking suggestions. By which I mean if there's a PrC concept that you think is cool or interesting mention it here. If there's a PrC concept that you want to play feel free to mention it. I will not promise to make them. I will not promise that if it sparks something in my mind I don't go off in a wildly different direction, but this is a chance to say 'I want a PrC about riding a dune worm' or what have you.

As for what I have planned for the 7 PrCs... I have some very vague ideas, but I've held back from really exploring any of them and the main one I'm playing with is the thing that convinced me I don't remember how to make PrCs and hence am doing this so it is likely not getting done due to writer's block. Still we'll see what gets done.

I will be posting the PrCs in their own threads, and I will be adding links to the OP, I will not be bumping the thread to do so if it would result in me double posting. Still if you're interested in my success feel free to check the thread over the course of the next week.

DayResult
1Success! Lower Planar Druid (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500198-Asphodel-Grovetender-(Lower-Planar-Druid-PrC)&p=21189749#post21189749)
2Success! Ki stealing ninjas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500364-Ki-Drinker-Ninja-(PrC-Evil)&p=21192593#post21192593)
3Success! Sublime Wild Shape (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500470-Beastshift-Hunter-(3-5-Wild-Shaping-Initiator-PrC)&p=21196307#post21196307)
4Success! Redemption PrC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500546-Redeemed-Sinner-(PrC)&p=21199345#post21199345)
5Success! Shadowcaster-Spirit Shaman Theurge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500657-Midnight-Grovetender-(Shadowcaster-Druid-Theurge)&p=21203180#post21203180)
6Success! Psion-Necromancer Theurge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500746-Gravemind-(Necromancer-Psion-Theurge-PrC)&p=21207242#post21207242)
7Success! Vestige-based PrC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500830-Dancer-of-Blades-(Binder-PrC)&p=21210736#post21210736)


I resisted the urge to theurge.

Illven
2016-09-09, 11:28 PM
I volunteer as tribute? :smallconfused:

Worth a shot. :smalltongue:

jiriku
2016-09-10, 12:14 AM
I will gladly shame you publicly. Shame! Shame! Oh... what? Not yet? Oh damn, sorry, my bad.

And yes. I would like a prestige class about riding a duneworm. Ashworm Dragoon left me wishing for better. Something 3-5 levels long would be nice, so a character could complete it and then get back to a primary class fairly quickly.

Zaydos
2016-09-10, 04:35 PM
Day 1 is completed with a Gray Wastes Druid (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500198-Asphodel-Grovetender-(Lower-Planar-Druid-PrC)&p=21189749#post21189749).


I volunteer as tribute? :smallconfused:

Worth a shot. :smalltongue:

So empathy-impaired archer? I mean I'll keep you in mind :smalltongue:


I will gladly shame you publicly. Shame! Shame! Oh... what? Not yet? Oh damn, sorry, my bad.

And yes. I would like a prestige class about riding a duneworm. Ashworm Dragoon left me wishing for better. Something 3-5 levels long would be nice, so a character could complete it and then get back to a primary class fairly quickly.

I thought on this last night for several hours. Ended up with 4 concepts, won't elaborate on 3 since I'm still considering them (well beyond 'Psionic Manifesting' 'Meldshaping' and 'Rides a Purple Worm'), but the main one that'd fit riding an ashworm in 5 levels was 'take the 5 pointless levels from Ashworm Dragoon' (Bonus Feat, Fixed Bonus Feat, Fixed Bonus Feat, Bonus Feat, ability that is either the same as its capstone or worthless dependent upon campaign). I mean I might actually do that anyway, but it'd be cheating for this to do what amounts to a fix.

Still might go with a small (3ish) level PrC for riding a purple worm, or one of the other 10 level ideas (incarnum is less likely than manifesting because I'm not as familiar with incarnum and incarnum has some weird things with PrCs and stuff with multiclassing people forget in general).

ImperatorV
2016-09-10, 04:52 PM
Suggestions, feel free to take or leave:

Prc based on possessing people

Prc for non-casters that want to travel the planes <- my personal favorite

Prc for gaining divine rank

Prc dual progression druid and martial initiating

Prc for granting power to people in exchange for their servitude and/or immortal soul. Be the devil that people make deals with essentially.

VoodooPaladin
2016-09-10, 06:51 PM
Okay! Some simple ideas, if that's what you're after.

-A PrC that lets Ninja use their Ki to pretend to be vampires.
-A PrC that lets Samurai use their staredown to pretend to be medusas.
-A PrC that lets Wu Jen use their familiars to pretend to be doppelgangers.
-A PrC that lets Warforged and Bladelings turn their metal bodies into divine idols.
-A PrC that lets Kobolds and Nezumi cast aside their humility and degenerate into vermin.
-A PrC that lets someone weaponize a bag of holding or similar dimensional pocket.

Zaydos
2016-09-10, 07:21 PM
Suggestions, feel free to take or leave:

Prc based on possessing people

Oooh, not something I'm ready to tackle with 24 hours to plan it in (I can't turn off my brain but I'm not hitting the books for things and possession would require me to untangle the rules).


Prc for non-casters that want to travel the planes <- my personal favorite

While they may or may not need fixing to make worth taking (and the fixing would probably be rebuilding from the ground up so unlike Ashworm Dragoon wouldn't invalidate the intent) the 3.0 MotP's only redeeming factor is its PrCs which include two about just that. One which is very specialized in it (and gets 8 + Int skill points on a rogue chassis) and one which has full BAB and learns to literally cut holes in the fabric of reality.


Prc for gaining divine rank

Divine Rank 0 or Divine Rank greater than 0? Either way I'm going to pass on this. Already made a base class that gives you DR0 (and there's a dragon PrC to do it), and don't want to go epic which I'd have to do to justify DR1+.


Prc dual progression druid and martial initiating

This might be done or a variation upon it (non-casting, wildshape + animal companion).


Prc for granting power to people in exchange for their servitude and/or immortal soul. Be the devil that people make deals with essentially.

Ooooooh this sounds real fun. Not something I'm ready to tackle with 24 hours to make it in.


Okay! Some simple ideas, if that's what you're after.

-A PrC that lets Ninja use their Ki to pretend to be vampires.

I'd give a ki pool to anyone who entered instead of require ninja specific, they'd just get to combine their pool. Might get made.


-A PrC that lets Samurai use their staredown to pretend to be medusas.

Mwahahahaha! Then I'd need to read samurai.


-A PrC that lets Wu Jen use their familiars to pretend to be doppelgangers.

1) Why Wu Jen and not just arcane casters?

2) Do Wu Jen even natively get familiars?

3) You know I have an inordinate fondness of familiars right?


-A PrC that lets Warforged and Bladelings turn their metal bodies into divine idols.

Bladelings are MC Compendix Annual 3... I mean Fiend Folio right?


-A PrC that lets Kobolds and Nezumi cast aside their humility and degenerate into vermin.

Kobolds are still rat-men in my mind. I mean this could be a fun PrC to make.


-A PrC that lets someone weaponize a bag of holding or similar dimensional pocket.

This would end up too complicated possibly.


Expect either something inspired by this page or a Dwarf PrC, I've got one buzzing around in my brain but I've done enough prep today it's starting to feel like cheating (I walked the dog, it's 5 levels) so I might not count it.

VoodooPaladin
2016-09-10, 08:41 PM
(I walked the dog, it's 5 levels)

Your dog is five levels? Or are you now a fifth-level dog-walker? :smallbiggrin:


Why Wu Jen and not just arcane casters? Do Wu Jen even natively get familiars?

No reason whatsoever! And no they do not. Mea culpa.


Bladelings are MC Compendix Annual 3... I mean Fiend Folio right?

Monster Manual II, page 31.

PapaQuackers
2016-09-10, 09:22 PM
A kick boxer prc for monks.

An entirely too big oversized weapon prc for melees

A statistician prc for extremely boring wizards

JBarca
2016-09-11, 03:25 PM
What about a class that's sorta the opposite of the Gray Guard, Malconvoker, or Blackguard? Each of these is about Good people doing less than Good things and keeping their power (though they are obviously very different classes in many other ways). So how about a class for Evil people? A class that lets Evil Clerics cast Good spells or something like it? Or go even farther and create a redemption class or some such. A bit similar to the Hellbred race, I suppose. Slowly becoming more Good over five (or three or seven or ten) levels, with thematic abilities (of course) in there.

Basically, a class meant for Evil people who want to do or become Good, as a counter to the plethora of classes meant for Good people falling to/getting away with Evil.

Zaydos
2016-09-11, 05:11 PM
So I made the dwarf PrC, but decided I'd planned too much of it before hand and that it was cheating, so I made Ki Drinker Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500364-Ki-Drinker-Ninja-(PrC-Evil)&p=21192593#post21192593). It strayed a bit from VoodooPaladin's suggestion (mostly because I threw in jianshi traits liberally) but you could still argue that it's a ninja who uses ki to pretend to be a vampire (it gets energy drain, blood breath drain, mind-control gaze, DR, spider climb, and can create vampire spawn, but no gaseous form or shape-shifting).


Your dog is five levels? Or are you now a fifth-level dog-walker? :smallbiggrin:

My dog is 5th level.


No reason whatsoever! And no they do not. Mea culpa.

I thought they didn't, since I recall really hating that about them as a kid (familiar is my favorite class feature).


Monster Manual II, page 31.

So they're the best things in that book.


A kick boxer prc for monks.

An entirely too big oversized weapon prc for melees

A statistician prc for extremely boring wizards

I'll think about it, these won't be the most likely.


What about a class that's sorta the opposite of the Gray Guard, Malconvoker, or Blackguard? Each of these is about Good people doing less than Good things and keeping their power (though they are obviously very different classes in many other ways). So how about a class for Evil people? A class that lets Evil Clerics cast Good spells or something like it? Or go even farther and create a redemption class or some such. A bit similar to the Hellbred race, I suppose. Slowly becoming more Good over five (or three or seven or ten) levels, with thematic abilities (of course) in there.

Basically, a class meant for Evil people who want to do or become Good, as a counter to the plethora of classes meant for Good people falling to/getting away with Evil.

A Redeemed Sinner class. Possibly something similar in concept to this shameless self-plug (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?340303-Runebound-Knight-%28Selling-souls-to-justice-PEACH%29&p=17277471#post17277471) but without the cast from life-force mechanics and more focused on the 'so here's the deal you serve heaven and we make sure you don't go to hell'. Redemption classes have certain narrative difficulties, though, among others that there's not many 'evil only' classes and fewer still of Paladin level (well except Paladins of Tyranny/Slaughter which mostly invalidate the need for Blackguard). You could make a L/N G warlock PrC (it's been done in a stupid way), a Good Dread Necromancer PrC (though that either means 'nope can't make undead anymore' or is just another 'Good character gets Evil aligned abilities'), I guess theoretically a good Hexblade but Hexblade isn't really a champion of evil so much as a jerk and an example of non-Evil but mean powers = can't be good (by which theory enchanters and necromancers shouldn't be able to be good aligned), still will think about a redemption class.

Or you know a good Malconvoker which intimidates/flat out mind-controls Good aligned creatures into service... I've always been torn on the flavor of Malconvoker (and usually end up tempted to refluff it and make it Evil only). On that note I think I've made something that lets an evil cleric cast [Good] spells, but I do love the idea of a class for a demonic (maybe diabolic) infiltrator who slips within a Good aligned church to corrupt those within and lead them towards Evil while being able to keep them gaining their spells just changing their source so they never know that they've fallen from their god's favor until they've fallen far too far :xykon:

And found the feat... I could expand it into a PrC.

We'll see what I feel like doing in 6 hours.

Charlatan Priest [Vile]
Your dark overlord has seen fit to use you as an infiltrator into the forces of good, bestowing upon you a smattering of 'holy' power.
Prerequisites: Bluff 6 ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 8 ranks, ability to cast 1st level divine spells (PF prerequisites: Bluff 5 ranks, Knowledge (Religion) 5 ranks, ability to cast 1st level divine spells).
Benefit: You are able to cast [Good] divine spells as if you were Good aligned and worshiped a Good aligned god, may sacrifice a prepared Unholy Blight spell to cast Holy Smite spontaneously, and may use the holy symbol of a Good aligned god in place of your normal Divine Focus. You may also cast Sanctified spells as if you were of a Good alignment although you suffer 1 negative level for 1 hour each time you cast a sanctified spell. Finally by expending a use of Rebuke Undead you may cause yourself to have an aura of Good (as a Good aligned cleric of a Good aligned god) for Charisma modifier hours.

Negative Energy Lensing
Necromancy
Level: Cle 3
Components: DF
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round.

You call upon your god's dark blessing, beseeching it to allow you to destroy that which you should command, converting the negative energy you channel into a dark mockery of itself.

While this spell is in effect whenever you use Rebuke Undead you Turn or Destroy undead instead of rebuking or commanding them. In addition your Negative Energy effects damage creatures harmed by positive energy as if they were positive energy.

VoodooPaladin
2016-09-11, 09:41 PM
I made Ki Drinker Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500364-Ki-Drinker-Ninja-(PrC-Evil)&p=21192593#post21192593). It strayed a bit from VoodooPaladin's suggestion... but you could still argue that it's a ninja who uses ki to pretend to be a vampire.

It's cool man, I loved it. Breath-drinking is way more practical than blood-drinking, anyway.



non-Evil but mean powers = can't be good (by which theory enchanters and necromancers shouldn't be able to be good aligned)

I would play a game where enchantment is Evil-aligned. But I think that's just a long-standing beef with charm person and Exalted's social charms talking.

remetagross
2016-09-12, 03:13 AM
Ah, here is why PrCs are popping these times :)

What about a Cleric-based PrC based on sowing plagues and diseases all around?
Or a Samuraļ-based PrC that mimicks the incredible swordsmanship tricks we see in Bleach or One Piece, with shockwaves and stuff ?

Zaydos
2016-09-12, 07:47 PM
Added one for today! Specifically my take on ImperatorV's Druid-Initiator, though it ended up not being a casting class at all (progresses the other 2 class worth of features a druid gets).


It's cool man, I loved it. Breath-drinking is way more practical than blood-drinking, anyway.

Glad to hear it. :smallbiggrin:


I would play a game where enchantment is Evil-aligned. But I think that's just a long-standing beef with charm person and Exalted's social charms talking.

I'm just saying it's inconsistent. Why is hexblade evil but a beguiler isn't? Hexblade may be my least favorite alignment restriction in the game... except oh wait Bard. I want Lawful Dwarf Bards!


Ah, here is why PrCs are popping these times :)

Yeah, possibly.


What about a Cleric-based PrC based on sowing plagues and diseases all around?

People keep tempting me to make Evil Cleric PrCS...


Or a Samuraļ-based PrC that mimicks the incredible swordsmanship tricks we see in Bleach or One Piece, with shockwaves and stuff?

It's definitely worth considering though I'd not be doing the research to make it really... actually how close would it be to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?407022-Final-Fantasy-Tactics-Advanced-Fighter-%28Prestige-Class%29)? Not anime inspired by Final Fantasy Tactics Advanced, still gets reverse PA (applicable to single attacks meaning you can PA more without making your lower accuracy attacks miss), sword bursts with fire for bonus damage, air cutting long (100-ft) ranged melee attack, 20 ft shockwave cone, and shockwave fireball.

This is what happens when I play FFT games.

remetagross
2016-09-12, 08:25 PM
Hey, your FFTA Fighter is very cool ! It's indeed somewhat similar to what I had in mind, without the Eastern flavor. Having played to FFTA myself, I find you managed quite well to mimick some of the fighter's iconic moves :)

PapaQuackers
2016-09-12, 08:39 PM
I hate tactics advanced.

What of a bard prestige that focuses more on Orating? Perhaps a type of character that can weave the world around him using his words/stories or something of the like.

Or we could return to the Bardic idea of the law maker/person who passes down the laws to the people. Perhaps he could create zones in which certain rules cannot be broken or massive punishment is dished out.

ImperatorV
2016-09-12, 08:53 PM
I like the Beastshift Hunter better then a straight dual-progression class anyway. It's cool how a straight-classed initiator can enter it via wild cohort, and it offers a way to get a martial shapshifter besides wildshape ranger (which is weak before its wildshape comes online).

Zaydos
2016-09-12, 09:05 PM
Hey, your FFTA Fighter is very cool ! It's indeed somewhat similar to what I had in mind, without the Eastern flavor. Having played to FFTA myself, I find you managed quite well to mimick some of the fighter's iconic moves :)

It was the easiest piece of FF homebrew I've ever made actually.


I hate tactics advanced.

I played it before Tactics.


What of a bard prestige that focuses more on Orating? Perhaps a type of character that can weave the world around him using his words/stories or something of the like.

Or we could return to the Bardic idea of the law maker/person who passes down the laws to the people. Perhaps he could create zones in which certain rules cannot be broken or massive punishment is dished out.

Interesting.


I like the Beastshift Hunter better then a straight dual-progression class anyway. It's cool how a straight-classed initiator can enter it via wild cohort, and it offers a way to get a martial shapshifter besides wildshape ranger (which is weak before its wildshape comes online).

You actually can't enter with Wild Cohort (it's not the ability to call an Animal Companion, and as it lacks Share Spells you can't qualify for the required feat). I mean you can now because I made a few tweaks (because I do like the idea of making it so you can get in without levels in Druid or Ranger or homebrew) but as originally written you couldn't.

Zaydos
2016-09-14, 01:49 AM
Alright I said I'd not doublepost to bump with an announcement of the day and I'm not, I have another more important/pressing reason, but since I'm bumping for a question I will note I did manage to make a class \o/

Now as to the pressing question which of these abilities do you think is better made (for a Shadow Caster/Divine Theurge); wording is still being worked on but plain language:

ABILITY NAME: You may prepare mysteries you know in your domain spell slots.

or

ABILITY NAME: You gain access to (list of 9 mysteries one of each level) as domain spells.


What about a class that's sorta the opposite of the Gray Guard, Malconvoker, or Blackguard? Each of these is about Good people doing less than Good things and keeping their power (though they are obviously very different classes in many other ways). So how about a class for Evil people? A class that lets Evil Clerics cast Good spells or something like it? Or go even farther and create a redemption class or some such. A bit similar to the Hellbred race, I suppose. Slowly becoming more Good over five (or three or seven or ten) levels, with thematic abilities (of course) in there.

Basically, a class meant for Evil people who want to do or become Good, as a counter to the plethora of classes meant for Good people falling to/getting away with Evil.

This fit the bill (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500546-Redeemed-Sinner-(PrC)&p=21199345#post21199345)?

remetagross
2016-09-14, 04:25 AM
I prefer the former one, it is less restrictive; in case of the latter one, how would you adjudicate which mysteries can be prepared in those domain spell slots and which can't ?

Libro
2016-09-14, 08:24 AM
I want Lawful Dwarf Bards!

Maybe a dwarven bard PRC?

There are plenty of bits of lore with dwarves and songs. At the forge as part of their smithing, in the midst of a battle to organize their fighting, and likely oral history as well.

It would allow lawful bards, and there could be several different songs a player could choose from-like the Dragon Chorister has a variety of hymns.

I'd say more, but I need to go to class.

VoodooPaladin
2016-09-14, 04:58 PM
Maybe a dwarven bard PRC?

Sounds more like a ACF/Variant class territory. A lot of the bard's class identity is caught up in wanting to be a swashbuckler or duelist, which the dwarves probably don't expect out of their storytellers.

Zaydos
2016-09-14, 06:24 PM
Today's results. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500657-Midnight-Grovetender-(Shadowcaster-Druid-Theurge)&p=21203180#post21203180) Also new rule I am not allowed to make any more Druid themed PrCs for this.


I prefer the former one, it is less restrictive; in case of the latter one, how would you adjudicate which mysteries can be prepared in those domain spell slots and which can't ?

It would have been a fixed list of 9 which would be the same for every member of the class. So almost allowing you to have 9 additional mysteries known but using your domain spell slots to do so, but yeah went with the one that just expands your mysteries per day significantly* (at the cost of domain spells)

*It's designed for OA Shamans** (getting in as a Cleric requires as far as I can tell a dip in another PrC that already requires 7th level cleric and thus means you're going to be really bad at being a theurge) and they get 2 domain spells of each level 4 or lower at 17th.

**Or druids or spirit shamans... or if the DM allows them Wild Shape Mystic Rangers but then you're only getting 8th level mysteries and 5th level spells instead of dual 9s.


Maybe a dwarven bard PRC?

There are plenty of bits of lore with dwarves and songs. At the forge as part of their smithing, in the midst of a battle to organize their fighting, and likely oral history as well.

It would allow lawful bards, and there could be several different songs a player could choose from-like the Dragon Chorister has a variety of hymns.

I'd say more, but I need to go to class.


Sounds more like a ACF/Variant class territory. A lot of the bard's class identity is caught up in wanting to be a swashbuckler or duelist, which the dwarves probably don't expect out of their storytellers.

This. I was toying with dwarven bard racial substitution levels before I decided to make 7* PrCs, but while I could make a dwarf only 'prestige' bard it'd be awkward and I want dwarven storysingers to be a thing from Lv 1 which means it is either a full fledged variant bard, or just saying 'bards don't have alignment** restrictions because they make Monk alignment restriction look smart' (I can stomach Barbarian and Druid, I'd never waive Cleric or Paladin, but Bard and Monk alignment restrictions just strike me as dumb dumb dumb).

*Minimum not maximum, 2 PrCs have already been made that don't count.

**2e Bards had an alignment restriction but could be Lawful. Specifically they had 3.x druid alignment restriction instead of 2e's "True Neutral only".

JBarca
2016-09-14, 08:54 PM
This fit the bill (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500546-Redeemed-Sinner-(PrC)&p=21199345#post21199345)?

I actually really like it. The offensive theme makes this an aggressively Good PrC, which is a ton of fun. The DCs for the abilities mean this class should probably remain viable for its whole life (but not much longer) if one heads in immediately at 5. So for a 1-10 game, this class could be awesome.

The defensive bonuses make sense, given the idea. Guidance of Heaven is fun. Can really see that working for the uneducated-type. Wants more than anything to be redeemed, but honestly has no idea how to do it, so his little angel voice is constantly talking to him. "No, knifing the annoying peasant isn't Good. No, you can't steal the bread even if your sister is starving and close to death. Yes, orphans count as people. Yes, even if they're Kobolds!"

Glimpse of Goodness is odd mechanically, but it should mostly function like a Charm Monster in practice, I'd think. Ends combat as the enemies won't fight each other, but won't be big into fighting you either.

Weight of Misdeeds is fun. Powerful (especially if you hit, say, a Vile-Feat-possessing Wizard), but fun. The caveat about it not working on [Evil] creatures is too bad, but makes sense. Similar to the Last Judgment spell.

Only because I'm currently playing your Paragon - the Redeemed Sinner is basically the Paragon in PrC form. Exalted fixed-list Healer and all that.

Overall, in case it isn't clear, I really like the class. Nice work!

ImperatorV
2016-09-14, 10:40 PM
Midnight Grovetender is cool. I assume it uses the Black Candle fundamental to get shadowy illumination all the time for it's abilities.

...Wait, does progressing shadowcasting mysteries include gaining the fundamentals at will? That's a separate class feature. Uuugghh RAW is confusing.

Zaydos
2016-09-15, 12:11 AM
So I'm thinking about going Theurge again today. Which means a few questions:


Was the way I went with Midnight Gardener good (14 levels, 7th level minimum entry via skill point gate, actual class features, a note for rangers/paladins getting better BAB)?
Got any non-druid theurges you'd particularly like to see? Was thinking about the ones following...
Eldritch Mind (Psion-Warlock theurge)
Soulsworn Warlock (Warlock-Incarnate theurge, might be accessible with Totemist 5/Warlock 2-3)
Speaker for the Forsaken (Binder-Truenamer, not trying to fix truenaming :smallconfused:)
Werewolf (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?309502-Listen-to-their-music-the-children-of-the-night-(Werewolf-as-a-base-class))/Arcanist theurge
Gravemind (Psion-Necromancer theurge)


In the case of the last there's a bonus question of: Should I make them require dread necromancer through requiring a class feature (Negative Energy Burst), make them heavily lean towards it by requiring the ability to cast at least 7 different 1st level or higher necromancy spells (possible for a wizard), or just open it to wizards and sorcerers (ability to cast 3 or more necromancy spells, ability to cast a 2nd level necromancy spell or spontaneously cast a 1st level one) oh and make it 15 levels and accessible at 6th so that spontaneous casters can reach dual 9s still?

Someone in a thread declared Thursday Theurge Thursday so I've had theurges on my mind for the last bit.


I actually really like it. The offensive theme makes this an aggressively Good PrC, which is a ton of fun. The DCs for the abilities mean this class should probably remain viable for its whole life (but not much longer) if one heads in immediately at 5. So for a 1-10 game, this class could be awesome.

Note that the +5 inherent bonus to Wisdom will make the DCs 2-3 higher than normal for your level so they stay relevant a bit longer (depending upon your Wisdom focus).


The defensive bonuses make sense, given the idea. Guidance of Heaven is fun. Can really see that working for the uneducated-type. Wants more than anything to be redeemed, but honestly has no idea how to do it, so his little angel voice is constantly talking to him. "No, knifing the annoying peasant isn't Good. No, you can't steal the bread even if your sister is starving and close to death. Yes, orphans count as people. Yes, even if they're Kobolds!"

Glimpse of Goodness is odd mechanically, but it should mostly function like a Charm Monster in practice, I'd think. Ends combat as the enemies won't fight each other, but won't be big into fighting you either.

I mostly copied Morality Undone which temporarily turns someone Evil.


Weight of Misdeeds is fun. Powerful (especially if you hit, say, a Vile-Feat-possessing Wizard), but fun. The caveat about it not working on [Evil] creatures is too bad, but makes sense. Similar to the Last Judgment spell.

The wizard must learn to repent his misdeeds by feeling the pain of them.


Only because I'm currently playing your Paragon - the Redeemed Sinner is basically the Paragon in PrC form. Exalted fixed-list Healer and all that.

It does follow my basic exalted format. No you can't be magically compelled to break your exalted status (I really feel like Paladin should get scaling resistance to immunity against things that would force them to do things against their code), yes you can heal. Originally it didn't have any casting except the random ability to cast Atonement 1/day, I decided that was silly and I didn't want it to be a SLA so they got healing.


Overall, in case it isn't clear, I really like the class. Nice work!

Glad to hear it.


Midnight Grovetender is cool. I assume it uses the Black Candle fundamental to get shadowy illumination all the time for it's abilities.

...Wait, does progressing shadowcasting mysteries include gaining the fundamentals at will? That's a separate class feature. Uuugghh RAW is confusing.

There's still the Dark Lantern... Though I will admit I was thinking their default would be Black Candle spam. I honestly don't know if it does. RAW it doesn't, and I copied the boiler plate from Nocturnmancer, but RAI... I'd say with either it or Nocturnmancer ask your DM and if they say no just carry a Dark Lantern. I do like the image of them carrying a dark lantern everywhere, though really you want a friend to do that (so you can wild shape). And this is why you have an ape animal companion. Does it die a lot since it has 3rd level animal companion stats? Yes. But until it dies it can carry your lantern and when it does you can summon a new one tomorrow.

Warning: Contents of this post may include trace amounts of Evil.

ShneekeyTheLost
2016-09-15, 02:02 AM
On the topic of Samurai to use Staredown to pretend to be a Medusa...

I like this idea, I think I've got some ideas.

Oni Warrior

Start off with a prerequsite of Staredown class ability. Maybe give a bonus to Intimidate checks that is level-based.
From there, have your staredown have a chance of inflicting various effects. Maybe start off with a Nauseated effect as the target... er... loses bowel control. Then Paralyzed effect, as the subject is paralyzed with fear. Based off of Intimidate checks, rather than saving throws, so he has a chance of actually landing them.

At some point, give him the ability to break immunity to fear by virtue of being immune to mind-affecting. Because honestly, anything relying on Fear effects needs to be able to do this. Regular version cannot affect Mindless. Improved version lets you even affect some Mindless types, such as Vermin and intelligent Undead but not animated constructs like Golems (unless they are sentient) or non-intelligent Undead (INT of -).

Permit him to continue getting Mass and Improved Staredown as levels progress.

Maybe toss an Aura of Fear in there as well?

khadgar567
2016-09-15, 02:09 AM
Love the idea of soulsworn if we can use with hellfire warlock i am game

ShiningStarling
2016-09-15, 03:06 AM
How about a Warlock PrC that's just like "Screw Invocations, I'ma just Eldritch Blast things out of existance"

khadgar567
2016-09-15, 03:09 AM
How about a Warlock PrC that's just like "Screw Invocations, I'ma just Eldritch Blast things out of existance"
if you want help my demon hunter class kinda do that

VoodooPaladin
2016-09-15, 04:31 AM
Got any non-druid theurges you'd particularly like to see? Was thinking about the ones following...
Someone in a thread declared Thursday Theurge Thursday so I've had theurges on my mind for the last bit.

Gravemind, Eldritch Mind, and (Arcanist/Werewolf) all sound pretty interesting. I'll throw a couple more onto the pile, like the Illusionist/Necromancer who creates false souls to empower his minions, and the Ranger/Necromancer who uses bones and branches to form massive deadwood battle armor.


In the case of the last there's a bonus question of: Should I make them require dread necromancer through requiring a class feature (Negative Energy Burst), make them heavily lean towards it by requiring the ability to cast at least 7 different 1st level or higher necromancy spells (possible for a wizard), or just open it to wizards and sorcerers (ability to cast 3 or more necromancy spells, ability to cast a 2nd level necromancy spell or spontaneously cast a 1st level one) oh and make it 15 levels and accessible at 6th so that spontaneous casters can reach dual 9s still?

I normally err on the side of availability. Does some aspect of Dread Necromancer fit your vision more strongly? Dual 9s is pretty much the definition of a prestigious capstone, so I say go for it!


"No, knifing the annoying peasant isn't Good. No, you can't steal the bread even if your sister is starving and close to death. Yes, orphans count as people. Yes, even if they're Kobolds!"

This is why you always spring for the Chaotic Good redemption path. I swear those Archons start looking real Inevitable when you're in dire straights.

Zaydos
2016-09-15, 01:19 PM
On the topic of Samurai to use Staredown to pretend to be a Medusa...

I like this idea, I think I've got some ideas.

Oni Warrior

Start off with a prerequsite of Staredown class ability. Maybe give a bonus to Intimidate checks that is level-based.
From there, have your staredown have a chance of inflicting various effects. Maybe start off with a Nauseated effect as the target... er... loses bowel control. Then Paralyzed effect, as the subject is paralyzed with fear. Based off of Intimidate checks, rather than saving throws, so he has a chance of actually landing them.

At some point, give him the ability to break immunity to fear by virtue of being immune to mind-affecting. Because honestly, anything relying on Fear effects needs to be able to do this. Regular version cannot affect Mindless. Improved version lets you even affect some Mindless types, such as Vermin and intelligent Undead but not animated constructs like Golems (unless they are sentient) or non-intelligent Undead (INT of -).

Permit him to continue getting Mass and Improved Staredown as levels progress.

Maybe toss an Aura of Fear in there as well?

Skills are far too easy to boost to use as a DC for paralysis or other save or loses (Enlarge Person + 10 Cha and an intimidate item = Balor and human foes cannot save resist unless you roll well below average and then they roll near nat 20). Remember opposed rolls the higher mod wins, and nat 20 is not an automatic success. Now of course gargantuan creatures with massive hit dice can make their saves but still would be better to give you a bonus to the save DCs of fear effects equal to 1/2 your Strength and have the save DC be 20+3-10 Cha+2-5 Str+2 ability focus and end up with somewhat reasonable DCs assuming it wasn't completely at-will (at-will AoE paralysis should not have a DC of 30+ when CR 20 creatures have less than +20 on their save). Honestly a baseline DC gives you a 20% chance of paralyzing Balor or 10% for Pit Fiend, a +2 from ability focus increases this to 30%, if it's based upon Mass Staredown this is an AoE which means you're taking out 30% of the encounter each round, and this is assuming 10 Cha (before cloak of charisma) and a Cha based save DC; throw on 14 Charisma and you've got a 40%, 18 Charisma (tomes, level ups, putting a high stat in charisma to begin with) and you've got a 50%, 22 (you actually focused on Charisma, probably built at high level) and you've got a 60% chance. This is not a negligible chance of success unless you have 10 Charisma. Yes a CR 20 dragon has an additional +2 (5% chance of failure), but also needs a negative number to overcome the intimidate check at the same level of optimization (Skill Focus, 10 Cha, +10 skill item) and the save DC is a more fixed number and avoids things like +4 from Enlarge Person, +20 from 3 level cleric dip, and the like (now went from less than 5% to > 95%).


Love the idea of soulsworn if we can use with hellfire warlock i am game

I've ran into a mental block on this one. The realization that you can get 3 attacks per round, and only lose one dark invocation and 1d6 eldritch blast, means I can't give it full incarnum as well much less class features. Unless I make it have its own invocation progression (thus locking you into what it perceives as a 3/3/14 split) so you lose a 2nd dark invocation which would make it more reasonable, but be really artificial, or by dropping your Warlock level by 2, locking you into the 4/2/14 split, and still feeling bad about giving you class features (ultimately because Incarnate and Warlock both lose less by dropping 2-4 levels than a caster does, and gains more by gaining incarnum or invocations than a caster does from more casting).

I.e. low-mid tier 3s are less powerful than tier 1 casters and so removing a bit of their power gives less power I can give back in return.


How about a Warlock PrC that's just like "Screw Invocations, I'ma just Eldritch Blast things out of existance"

Now, now you have to keep Eldritch Essence and Blast Shape invocations, otherwise how will you fuel your ability to apply two eldritch essences at once?


Gravemind, Eldritch Mind, and (Arcanist/Werewolf) all sound pretty interesting. I'll throw a couple more onto the pile, like the Illusionist/Necromancer who creates false souls to empower his minions, and the Ranger/Necromancer who uses bones and branches to form massive deadwood battle armor.

Illusionist/Necromancer could be interesting but would be a pain to make where it's a theurge and not just a Wizard PrC, where as Ranger/Necromancer... too druid for right now.


I normally err on the side of availability. Does some aspect of Dread Necromancer fit your vision more strongly? Dual 9s is pretty much the definition of a prestigious capstone, so I say go for it!

Focus on necromancy without other spells. A much lower power level compared to Wizard so that I can give more abilities because, fixed list casters (unlike Warlock/Incarnation above) still have power growth that follows caster progression. That said availability is nice and fun and lets you build more things.

khadgar567
2016-09-15, 01:47 PM
I've ran into a mental block on this one. The realization that you can get 3 attacks per round, and only lose one dark invocation and 1d6 eldritch blast, means I can't give it full incarnum as well much less class features. Unless I make it have its own invocation progression (thus locking you into what it perceives as a 3/3/14 split) so you lose a 2nd dark invocation which would make it more reasonable, but be really artificial, or by dropping your Warlock level by 2, locking you into the 4/2/14 split, and still feeling bad about giving you class features (ultimately because Incarnate and Warlock both lose less by dropping 2-4 levels than a caster does, and gains more by gaining incarnum or invocations than a caster does from more casting).

I.e. low-mid tier 3s are less powerful than tier 1 casters and so removing a bit of their power gives less power I can give back in return.


I think we don't need 14 level prc for this one since it cuts realy to close to become full class and warlock just need a way to fill 7 remaining levels to reach 20th level and they already dip incarnate so they can use hellfire blast constantly they just need way to add more dakka to their only offence and maybe gain some usefull toys for late game like way to channel demonic souls to broaden their infernal horizons

Zaydos
2016-09-15, 06:31 PM
Today's result is up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?500746-Gravemind-(Necromancer-Psion-Theurge-PrC)&p=21207242#post21207242) went with the Necromantic cerebromancer, though currently you can be a Psion 3/DN 2, Psion 3/Sor 2, Psion 3/Wiz 3, Psion 3/Cle 3, Psion 3/Druid 3, Psion 3/Wu Jen 3, etc so not really cerebromancer because it also does Divine. Now it can't do Wilder 3/Sor 2 without something to add Knowledge (Religion) to a class skill list, or Wilder 3/Favored Soul 2 for the same reason (why doesn't favored soul get Knowledge Religion?), but it's a thing, it exists, it seems more build for BBEGs than PCs... I may just really have a thing for BBEGs.

Thinking a 5 level PrC that you can slot into a character without it being all you are for tomorrow with the added restraints of not a druid, not a theurge, and not designed for BBEGs, but no promises on any of that.


I think we don't need 14 level prc for this one since it cuts realy to close to become full class and warlock just need a way to fill 7 remaining levels to reach 20th level and they already dip incarnate so they can use hellfire blast constantly they just need way to add more dakka to their only offence and maybe gain some usefull toys for late game like way to channel demonic souls to broaden their infernal horizons

Why dip Incarnate instead of just take Shape Soulmeld? Either way that's the thing, making it work as a full theurge like what I wanted to do today was like trying to drive a round peg into a square hole, it just didn't fit. So went Gravemind instead it just flowed together better, though might have ended up a little too much. That said unless it's a druid theurge it's not really 'is theurge stronger than wizard' it's 'is theurge stronger than wizard/loremaster' or wizard/X so... I don't know I worry about these theurges.