Evasive footwork

[Doomwhispo]

Evasive Footwork. When you move, you can expend one superiority die, rolling the die and adding the number rolled to your AC until you stop moving.

The way I see it its either OP or too weak. I would say since one is always moving in a battle (one round last 6 sec) the bonus stays as long as the character wants. Else it would say 'until the end of your turn'

[R.Shackleford]

Evasive Footwork. When you move, you can expend one superiority die, rolling the die and adding the number rolled to your AC until you stop moving.

The way I see it its either OP or too weak. I would say since one is always moving in a battle (one round last 6 sec) the bonus stays as long as the character wants. Else it would say 'until the end of your turn'

TBF the battlemaster is pretty underwhelming in general.

I would say "for the next minute you may disengage as a bonus action ".

Nice but not too powerful. We already have the rogue and monk that can BA disengage (I actually think the monk's SotW needs some love).

[NNescio]

TBF the battlemaster is pretty underwhelming in general.

I would say "for the next minute you may disengage as a bonus action ".

Nice but not too powerful. We already have the rogue and monk that can BA disengage (I actually think the monk's SotW needs some love).

What, highest DPR straight-class (Champion lose out unless they get magic weapons with bonus dice) in the game with some CC abilities is hardly underwhelming.

Evasive Footwork is bad though, but there's plenty of good maneuvers.

[R.Shackleford]

What, highest DPR straight-class (Champion lose out unless they get magic weapons with bonus dice) in the game with some CC abilities is hardly underwhelming.

Evasive Footwork is bad though, but there's plenty of good maneuvers.

DPR means nothing.

Absolutely nothing. Anyone can do damage to keep up with the game, it isn't a race to do the most.

However the BM isn't made to be a "damage only" class, that's the Champion, the BM is about maneuvers and all but two are absolutely deplorable due to them not growing and just being underwhelming.

DPR is meaningless.


Edit

DPR is the ERA of D&D, it is a flashy number that doesn't really give you the whole picture.

So many sub 3.5 or sub 3.0 pitchers have lost games even though they were amazing.

So many pitchers throwing fastballs in the upper 90's see those balls go over the fence.

Having a great number doesn't matter as much as how you work with your team or how predictable you are. If your team sucks or you can only do one thing, you aren't really worth all that much.

[Citan]

What, highest DPR straight-class (Champion lose out unless they get magic weapons with bonus dice) in the game with some CC abilities is hardly underwhelming.

Evasive Footwork is bad though, but there's plenty of good maneuvers.
I really wouldn't say it's "bad". While there are usually more important manoeuvers to take when you first get the archetype, you end with 9 manoeuvers to play with.

Evasive Footwork can be great in many situations, such as escaping a surrounding or reaching a heavily guarded enemy.
Like a "one-shot" Mobile, without limit (because not depending on attack), but at a cost (a dice).

Getting 1d12 to your AC to avoid opportunity attacks in some occasions seems good enough to me, when you don't want / cannot afford to take the Mobile feat or any other way to consistently prevent/disable OA. My only regret is the randomness of the roll (would have loved a minimum equal to Dexterity or something like that).


However the BM isn't made to be a "damage only" class, that's the Champion, the BM is about maneuvers and all but two are absolutely deplorable due to them not growing and just being underwhelming.

oO
Interesting. Beyond the fact that the die size increase (granted, a minor boost) as well as the number of dice (a more significant boost), don't you realize that they do not need growing really, because they basically enable advantage to you or disadvantage to your foes?

Since you become more efficient, since your enemies become more dangerous, most manoeuvers stay relevant throughout.
The only ones I would agree are underwhelming past the first levels are...
- Feinting: so many other ways to get reliable advantage once the party reaches lvl 5 or so (or maybe before depending on composition) make this only useful at low levels. Except that there are better manoeuvers for this already.
- Rally. Nice ability but insufficient upscale. Good at low level if character has build CHA, to be switched at level 7 or 11.
- Sweeping Attack: the one I feel is really wasted. They should have made it at least weapon die damage in addition to manoeuver die. And frankly I don't think it would have been broken to make it a plain extra attack similar to Horde Breaker.

All the other have their uses. Sure, it seems underwhelming to use what actually differentiates you from another Fighter only 6 times per short rest. No argue here that it can be a bit frustrating. But mechanically speaking, it's still very good, you just have to pick the right moment.
(I would really have preferred they ditch the "add bonus damage = manoeuver dice" to instead focus on the control part, and give more uses instead, but well).

[Specter]

The way I see it, when you attack, for instance, you stop moving. Breaking the attacks wouldn't make a difference. And by "moving" I'm pretty sure they mean "going from square to square". I see it kinda like ranger's Escape the Horde for archers, but a bit underwhelming.

And yes, Battlemaster is great at early levels, but scales poorly. That level 15 ability is just shameless.

[Occasional Sage]

DPR means nothing.

Absolutely nothing. Anyone can do damage to keep up with the game, it isn't a race to do the most.

However the BM isn't made to be a "damage only" class, that's the Champion, the BM is about maneuvers and all but two are absolutely deplorable due to them not growing and just being underwhelming.

DPR is meaningless.

I don't understand why you put so much emphasis on doing damage in combat.

[NNescio]

DPR means nothing.

Absolutely nothing. Anyone can do damage to keep up with the game, it isn't a race to do the most.

However the BM isn't made to be a "damage only" class, that's the Champion, the BM is about maneuvers and all but two are absolutely deplorable due to them not growing and just being underwhelming.

DPR is meaningless.

You're a fighter. DPR is your job. And the BM does it best out of the three, thanks to Precision Attack and Trip Attack. Heck, you get more maneuvers per short rest than a Champion gets extra criticals (combat don't go for THAT many rounds anyway), so you're still better off than the Champion if you waste your dice on Menacing Attack unless the Champion has some magic weapon with extra damage dice to multiply on crits.

Plus, the BM is far more fun to play, and can CC quite well against non-fear immune opponents by combining Menacing Attack with Goading Attack. Precision Attack also helps Sentinel + PAM control. You can also save squishies from grappling monsters via Pushing Attack, and even Commander's Strike can be worth the die and attack if you have allied strikers who rely on big single attacks (like the Rogue and Paladin).

Higher DPR means shorter rounds and less damage being done to your teammates. This keeps the Cleric a happy camper. As for scaling issues, well, Precision Attack/Trip Attack/Commander's Strike effectively scale with you and your party anyway.

[Citan]

The way I see it, when you attack, for instance, you stop moving. Breaking the attacks wouldn't make a difference. And by "moving" I'm pretty sure they mean "going from square to square". I see it kinda like ranger's Escape the Horde for archers, but a bit underwhelming.

And yes, Battlemaster is great at early levels, but scales poorly. That level 15 ability is just shameless.
I guess they found difficult to give a "resource restoration" that would fit in their "6 encounters / 2 short rest" balance...

If they had made it just "regain an expended dice", players could have been a pain in the *** by trying to get an Initiative roll for anything and everything, increasing the "cop" aspect of DM.

I think they could have made it a "regain all 1/long rest" instead. Allowing you to still be good to go if you are suddenly facing the worst encounter of the day (at least you think so ^^).
But maybe they considered this and dismissed it for whatever balance reason...

[R.Shackleford]

I don't understand why you put so much emphasis on doing damage in combat.

Because everyone in the party can do enough damage to keep up with the game.


You don't need to focus on damage at all. It's a false need. Without optimizing or using all your features, you and your allies, will do enough damage to keep up with the game.

If you keep up too well or don't keep up well enough? HP is the single easiest thing for a DM to change and they regularly do.

The BM is essentially a champion or barbarian with their pathetic spells that don't scale or grow. Eine able to do an extra 1 or 2 damage per die after 10 or 15 levels is hilariously bad.

(I'm pretty sure they made 5e for levels 1 - 8 ish and then just slapped on 9 ish - 20)

[Klorox]

DPR means nothing.

Absolutely nothing. Anyone can do damage to keep up with the game, it isn't a race to do the most.

However the BM isn't made to be a "damage only" class, that's the Champion, the BM is about maneuvers and all but two are absolutely deplorable due to them not growing and just being underwhelming.

DPR is meaningless.


Edit

DPR is the ERA of D&D, it is a flashy number that doesn't really give you the whole picture.

So many sub 3.5 or sub 3.0 pitchers have lost games even though they were amazing.

So many pitchers throwing fastballs in the upper 90's see those balls go over the fence.

Having a great number doesn't matter as much as how you work with your team or how predictable you are. If your team sucks or you can only do one thing, you aren't really worth all that much.
I wouldn't say it's meaningless, but it isn't nearly as important as many think.

<3 the baseball reference.

[Specter]

I guess they found difficult to give a "resource restoration" that would fit in their "6 encounters / 2 short rest" balance...

If they had made it just "regain an expended dice", players could have been a pain in the *** by trying to get an Initiative roll for anything and everything, increasing the "cop" aspect of DM.

I think they could have made it a "regain all 1/long rest" instead. Allowing you to still be good to go if you are suddenly facing the worst encounter of the day (at least you think so ^^).
But maybe they considered this and dismissed it for whatever balance reason...

Monks regain 4 ki points with a similar ability. They could have given, at the very least, 2 sup. dice when you have none, but not even that. Asking a guy with at least three attacks per turn to make do with one die is egregiously bad.

[CantigThimble]

TBF the battlemaster is pretty underwhelming in general.

I would say "for the next minute you may disengage as a bonus action ".

Nice but not too powerful. We already have the rogue and monk that can BA disengage (I actually think the monk's SotW needs some love).

Well, as it is written currently you can use up the reactions of the creatures you move past. It's a pretty niche advantage but I have been in a few situations where it was necessary for my character to deliberately take some opportunity attacks so that characters who were concentrating on spells and/or had much lower AC could move though the same area safely.

[ad_hoc]

The main use of Evasive Footwork is to attack a fortified position. You soak up the enemy's readied attacks so that you and your party can attack.

It is also a decent pseudo-disengage without using up your action.

I would describe it as more niche than weak.

[Plaguescarred]

Evasive Footwork. When you move, you can expend one superiority die, rolling the die and adding the number rolled to your AC until you stop moving.

The way I see it its either OP or too weak. I would say since one is always moving in a battle (one round last 6 sec) the bonus stays as long as the character wants. Else it would say 'until the end of your turn'Evasive Footwork only work when you move and last until you stop, which happens when you stop (deducting distance from your speed and not) crossing space (or square) anymore.

I put a ( ) because it can be used even on a movement that don't use your own speed.


Movement and Position: On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed. You can use as much or as little o f your speed as you like on your turn, following the rules here...However you’re moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or until you are done moving.

[Zalabim]

Because everyone in the party can do enough damage to keep up with the game.


You don't need to focus on damage at all. It's a false need. Without optimizing or using all your features, you and your allies, will do enough damage to keep up with the game.

If you keep up too well or don't keep up well enough? HP is the single easiest thing for a DM to change and they regularly do.

The BM is essentially a champion or barbarian with their pathetic spells that don't scale or grow. Eine able to do an extra 1 or 2 damage per die after 10 or 15 levels is hilariously bad.

(I'm pretty sure they made 5e for levels 1 - 8 ish and then just slapped on 9 ish - 20)

The only scaling problem I see is that there's some maneuvers that will find higher CR enemies being immune to them due to size or immunity to the frightened condition and Goading Attack sidesteps the frightened condition. Pick an underwhelming level and add in an increase to the maximum size of creature tripping attack and pushing attack can effect. Or just remove the limit altogether. It doesn't have to be a big deal.

Area attacks and area effects would be nice, but apparently that is something that's carefully rationed this edition.

[djreynolds]

I might have its uses if one must move through a crowd to get to particular individual.

You can add your SD to your AC while moving and attack in between your movements. And since it does not cost a reaction or bonus action, its basically free AC while you move to either split up attacks as you go, or go gang-buster to the wizard or BBEG.

So an 11th level fighter, can throw this up for possibly +10AC at this level.

I think this maneuver could be more useful if you were fighting NPCs who might posses something like sentinel or PAM that could stop you in route to your target.

Also, though very niche, create a path for others in the party by soaking up opportunity attacks so perhaps the rogue could follow and not have to eat up a bonus action to disengage........ or even clear a path, lets say, so a cleric can get to an injured comrade and heal him and then you could use maneuvering attack to swipe at the guy who knocked your buddy down and then get the injured PC out.

Its not misty step, or the shield spell, or dimension door... but it could lend you a similar ability, perhaps not equal, to get through a crowded area with enough left over to strike at an enemy protected by guards or fodder.

Also it isn't so much about DPR and DPS, but about being able to control the battlefield and create opportunities for whatever, damage and healing and saving resources.

[NNescio]

Because everyone in the party can do enough damage to keep up with the game.


You don't need to focus on damage at all. It's a false need. Without optimizing or using all your features, you and your allies, will do enough damage to keep up with the game.

If you keep up too well or don't keep up well enough? HP is the single easiest thing for a DM to change and they regularly do.

The BM is essentially a champion or barbarian with their pathetic spells that don't scale or grow. Eine able to do an extra 1 or 2 damage per die after 10 or 15 levels is hilariously bad.

(I'm pretty sure they made 5e for levels 1 - 8 ish and then just slapped on 9 ish - 20)

By that standard, all Fighters are crap (Eldritch Knights should go Bladesinger instead), all Barbarians are crap, all Rogues are crap (want to be a skillmonkey? Pick Bard), all Monks are crap (don't scale or grow much either), Sorlocks are crap (just pick Wizard or pure Lock), Evokers are crap (other specialization do BFC/CC better, War Clerics are crap (pick any other Cleric), and so on.

If the DM can arbitrarily adjust encounters to nerf one class over another, he can very well nerf other options as well like jacking up saves and granting legendary resistance to mobs. This is some variant of the Oberoni Fallacy, really (a class is crpa because the DM can make it crap).

And seriously, while the BM is an exceptional DPR class, that's not his entire shtick. Precision Attack means he's the most reliable user of the Sentinel PAM combo, which prevents beefy scrappers from entering the backline and endangering the casters (unless he's outnumbered, but mobs are usually weaker and very susceptible to caster BFC and AoE). Trip Attack means he can generate easy advantage, which is fearsome when combined with multiple attacks taken with GWM, and can enable a rogue's SA, or a dangerous spell attack (like a Cleric's Contagion). Distracting Strike is generally weaker than trip, but is a guaranteed effect and can work with allied ranged attacks, again making it dangerous with CC effects that require spell attacks. Pushing Attack can save a grappled mage's bacon (a pushed enemy by RAW will break the grapple). Goading Attack helps you play the tank role well, and Menacing is outright unfair against non fear-immune enemies. Maneuvering Attack, meanwhile, can also help get squishies away from enemies (or alternatively be used on another beefy teammate to block your target). Commander’s Strike is generally a subpar option, but can help an ally deal more damage (which can potentially have rider effects) if the BM is out of position, especially when used on strikers with strong single attacks (Rogue, Paladin).

Really, the BM is an excellent team player, and the best non-caster battlefield controller. He's fun to play that way, and fun to play with too. True, most of these options are weaker than actual spells, but the BM does not need to forgo his action (or even attacks, for most options) to generate such effects, and can try multiple times in one turn for each attack.

As for scaling issues (past L10), really? That can be said of nearly any class without access to spells.

[Specter]

I might have its uses if one must move through a crowd to get to particular individual.

You can add your SD to your AC while moving and attack in between your movements. And since it does not cost a reaction or bonus action, its basically free AC while you move to either split up attacks as you go, or go gang-buster to the wizard or BBEG.

I don't think that applies, because to make an attack you have to effectively stop your movement to do it.


By that standard, all Fighters are crap (Eldritch Knights should go Bladesinger instead), all Barbarians are crap, all Rogues are crap (want to be a skillmonkey? Pick Bard), all Monks are crap (don't scale or grow much either), Sorlocks are crap (just pick Wizard or pure Lock), Evokers are crap (other specialization do BFC/CC better, War Clerics are crap (pick any other Cleric), and so on.

Nah.

- EKs can eat most martials alive because they have such good defenses, and at the same time War Magic is much better for offense than maneuvers (and is infinite, as well). Pit an EK20 against a BM20, and watch the EK make it with at least 1/2 HP back.
- Barbarians are crap? Care to elaborate?
- Rogues are skillmonkeys that can deal damage. Bard's schtick is support.
- Monks can do most of what Battlemaster can do with much more fuel (Ki) than BM gets, and with the wonderful Stunning Strike to boot. If you want to shut down enemy wizards quickly, you don't get Evasive Footwork, you get a monk.
- Wizards and Warlocks can't cast Eldritch Blast twice.
- Who said evokers are for CC?
- War Clerics are just fine. Their 17th level feature is lame, but hey, they're still getting 9th-level spells.

The Battlemaster is the Warlock of martials. Use up your few dice, then go hunt a short rest. In that sense, worse than Warlocks, because those can keep up with Eldritch Blast.

[NNescio]

I don't think that applies, because to make an attack you have to effectively stop your movement to do it.



Nah.

- EKs can eat most martials alive because they have such good defenses, and at the same time War Magic is much better for offense than maneuvers (and is infinite, as well). Pit an EK20 against a BM20, and watch the EK make it with at least 1/2 HP back.
- Barbarians are crap? Care to elaborate?
- Rogues are skillmonkeys that can deal damage. Bard's schtick is support.
- Monks can do most of what Battlemaster can do with much more fuel (Ki) than BM gets, and with the wonderful Stunning Strike to boot. If you want to shut down enemy wizards quickly, you don't get Evasive Footwork, you get a monk.
- Wizards and Warlocks can't cast Eldritch Blast twice.
- Who said evokers are for CC?
- War Clerics are just fine. Their 17th level feature is lame, but hey, they're still getting 9th-level spells.

The Battlemaster is the Warlock of martials. Use up your few dice, then go hunt a short rest. In that sense, worse than Warlocks, because those can keep up with Eldritch Blast.

By R.Shackleford's standards that "DPR means nothing", "You don't need to focus on damage at all", and "If you keep up too well or don't keep up well enough? HP is the single easiest thing for a DM to change and they regularly do". If those were true then all EKs are inferior to Bladesingers (DPR << Spells), Barbarians are pointless (DPR class who can't force threats to focus on him as a BM), Rogues (another DPR class) are crap compared to Bards who are also skillmonkeys but come with spells, Monk's only purpose is SS, Double EB is pointless because the DM can always adjust the HP of mobs up and down (Oberoni fallacy), Evokers are better off spending theit time doing CC/BFC (immune to DM's fooling around with enemy HP!), and War Clerics are inferior compared to other Clerics because they trade spell-enhancing/utility features for DPR.

You're preaching to the choir. I'm just using reductio arguments. Generally, martials are balanced vs. casters by having more DPR. If DPR means nothing then everyone should just play BFC/CC/utility casters.

Need damage? Ehh, everyone can just throw cantrips at it. The DM will adjust enemy HP downwards anyway even if we suck at DPR.

[djreynolds]

I don't think that applies, because to make an attack you have to effectively stop your movement to do it.
t.

You can split up your movement between attacks, so it should be possible. Perhaps only 30ft, but there is some play.

[Culliganator]

Just because your turn ends doesn't mean your movement does. Remember actions during a turn are all occurring at approximately the same time and if your destination will take you three turns to reach it doesn't mean you have to stop along the way. I think the problem is with how the rule is written and the way miniature play is handled. I would rule that a turn with an action stops the defensive footwork at the end of that turn.

[DeTess]

Just because your turn ends doesn't mean your movement does.

And just because a thread has been dead for 2 years doesn't mean you can't raise it, apparently :P

/end necrothread please

[djreynolds]

It's has its uses.

Evasive footwork allows a battlemaster to up his A.C., it's useful to promote AoO as you move through an area.

In a sense, your forcing the enemy to waste opportunity attacks on you, eating up reactions.

I did it once to clear a path so others could escape.

And once to allow a paladin to move through the throng of mooks to get to the BBEG. The paladin had an upcasted searing smite waiting to be used on a mummy but a throng of undead to get through. They all hit my fighter, and most the reaction attacks missed.

It's very useful, if you have someone surrounded who has a concentration spell up and they need to move.

Maneuvering is good, but only versus 1 attack.

Evasive is situational, but it's good to have

[JackPhoenix]

In a sense, your forcing the enemy to waste opportunity attacks on you, eating up reactions.

Except you can't force the enemies to take the OA. And the enemy will be less willing to use OA on you when you have higher AC and there are softer targets that may also move out of their reach. It's better at reaching specific targets than at protecting teammates.

[Potato_Priest]

The real value of Evasive footwork is when you expend it after beginning your 8 hours of daily travel, thus guaranteeing +1dX AC for any encounters along the road.

[JackPhoenix]

The real value of Evasive footwork is when you expend it after beginning your 8 hours of daily travel, thus guaranteeing +1dX AC for any encounters along the road.

At least until the initiative gets rolled and you'll stop moving until your turn.

So until the actual encounter start.

[Trickery]

Battlemaster is fine as far as fighters go. They aren't good past about level 14, but no fighter is. You can't compare a level 18 fighter to a level 18 open hand monk, for instance, who can spend four ki points for invisibility plus damage resistance for one minute and who can instakill anything that fails its constitution save. Fighters (and barbarians, for that matter) have nothing that lets them compete at high levels with the more magical classes. Even rogues fall far behind except in there areas of expertise.

But hardly anyone ever plays in tier four. Most play is in tiers one, two, and three. The average level is something between 5 and 8. And that's the best level range to be a BM fighter.

Are BM fighters good? Absolutely. They're strong during the levels that see the most play. It doesn't matter if they fall off at high levels because hardly anybody ever gets there.

As far as evasive footwork goes, I'd say it's niche. There are situations where you either can't or don't want to disengage, and you also don't want to take opportunity attacks from a bunch of creatures on your way out. If you're worried that a bunch of creatures are holding their action to attack you, evasive footwork combo'd with the Dodge action may be the only way to get in range of them.

But would I take it over Precision or Trip attack? No.

[djreynolds]

Except you can't force the enemies to take the OA. And the enemy will be less willing to use OA on you when you have higher AC and there are softer targets that may also move out of their reach. It's better at reaching specific targets than at protecting teammates.

But they don't know that, they really only know they missed with their attacks.

But it also good, especially with action surge to get their casters

[Trickery]

But they don't know that, they really only know they missed with their attacks.

But it also good, especially with action surge to get their casters

I've seen an argument about this kind of thing before. If you use evasive footwork, do other creatures know that you did so? The same thing comes up with the Subtle metamagic. I've also seen it come up in regard to Sentinel. Do creatures know that you have Sentinel? If so, they may choose to attack you instead of your friend, and they will never try to disengage from you when they otherwise would.

In my opinion, other creatures only know about an ability if it explicitly says so, or if there's something you're required to do that would make it obvious to them.

[Deox]

Ack! Thread Necro.

/Turn un-THREAD?