Looking for help. Opinions on this ability.

[Poppatomus]

Dracodei has already helped me out a bit with this, but I'd like to make sure that this ability, which is part of the guy i've submitted to the monthly contest thread, makes some kind of sense. It is reproduced below, and feedback would be greatly appreciated. (the written kind, not the ever screecher microphone noise kind. )

Humble (Su): The Dattar may render a creature ordinary. By taking a full round action and making a successful touch attack the Dattar humbles an opponent. The effects of humble proceed according to the following table. When a completion condition is reached, the next stage of the effect begins on the following round.

Stage|Effect each round|completion condition|
1| Creature shrinks or expands by one size category |creature is medium size
2| Creature takes 3 points of permanent attribute drain to all attributes above 10 | All attributes are 10 or lower
3|All trained skills with more than 4 ranks the Creature possesses are reduced by 5 ranks, can not reduce skills below 0 ranks| no skill has more than four ranks
4| Creature suffers 5d6 points of permanent level or HD drain, Level/HD cannot fall below one| creature is at 1 HD.
5| All Magical items and weapons of masterwork quality or greater wielded or worn by the creature drop to its feet. The creature can no longer wear, wield, hold or activate any magical item or weapon of masterwork quality or better|one round passes
6|Creature loses all supernatural or spell like abilities | one round passes
7|Creature loses any extraordinary abilities or special ability not granted by its type or subtype| one round passes


The effect ends when all seven stages have concluded.

Creatures currently affected by pride goeth take a -10 penalty to AC against the touch attack that starts this effect. They also are not permitted saves. Other creatures may make a save at DC 35 + 3 for each ability score above 18. This save must be made each round to delay the effects of the ability until the next round. This DC is charisma based For each additional humble attack made by the Dattar against a creature already subject to humble the save DC increases by +5. The save is always made using the creature’s worst save after modifiers are taken into effect.

Making three successful saves in a row ends the effect but does not restore previously lost characteristics. A creature may gain a +15 bonus to this save if they spend the entire round concentrating on maintaining themselves as they are and take no other action. A side effect of this ability is an inherent desire to do just that, and a character must specifically choose not attempt to retain the features that make it special or it automatically attempts to do so as long as it is conscious.

A wish or miracle can be used to guarantee success on this save for one round or reverse the effects of the previous round, however, this also causes the caster of that spell to be subject to the humble effect. If the caster of the spell is currently suffering from humble their save DC increases by +10 in the following round.

Once the effect ends, whether running the full cycle or being saved against, the changes wrought can not be reversed or restored, even by a wish or miracle spell. Additionally, a creature that lost class levels can not gain any new levels of any class from which they lost levels. Only the Dattar or the direct intervention of a major deity can restore a creature’s former glory. If granted by the Dattar restoration takes one full day and requires that the humbled creature be on the same plane as the Dattar.

[Poppatomus]

One bump, then oblivion.

[jindra34]

What is a Dattar?

[Poppatomus]

It's my submission to the monthly contest for this month. It can be seen here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49319) along with this month's other entries [at least the ones that have been submitted so far. If you haven't read that thread you should, the monsters are pretty good]. It is reproduced in the spoiler tag below:

The Monster


Dattar

Medium Outsider (Lawful, evil, archon)
Hit Dice: 30d8 + 120 (245 hp)
Initiative: +14
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), 100 ft. (clumsy)
Armor Class: 25 (Dex +10, Natural +5), touch 20, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +25/+31
Attack: Slam +36 melee (1d6) or weapon +36 melee (depends on weapon)
Full Attack: 4 Slams +36/+30/+24/+18 melee or weapon +36/+30/+24/+18 melee (depends on weapon)
Space/Reach: 5ft./5ft.
Special Attacks: Euthanize, Genocide, Pride Goeth, Humble, Spell Like Abilities
Special Qualities: Archon Traits, Eternal Mission, Perdition’s Son, Wiley, Crusader’s boon, fast healing 6, Damage Reduction 10/epic, SR 35
Saves: Fort +37, Ref +41, Will +38
Abilities: Str 22 Dex 30 Con 18 Int 22 Wis 24 Cha 30
Skills: Tumble +33 (+43), Balance +33 (+47), Escape artist +33(+43), Hide +33 (+43), Move Silently +33 (+43), Bluff +33(+43), Disguise +33 (+43), Gather information +33 (+43), Intimidate +33 (+47), Handle Animal +16 (+25), Ride +17 (+25), Jump +33 (+43), Knowledge (The planes) +11 (+17), Knowledge (religion) +10 (+16), Listen +33 (+40), Spot +33 (+40), Sense motive +12 (+19)

Feats: Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, improved initiative, improved Grapple, improved unarmed Strike,
Epic Feats: Self Concealment x2, Improved Whirlwind Attack, Epic Dodge
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary (Unique)
Challenge Rating: 30
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always Lawful Evil

Description/characteristics

Before you stands a normal human male, unremarkable except for two large wings that jut from his back. Neither the leathery wings of a fiend nor the feathered limbs of an angel, the wings are covered in scales of some translucent material that warps the light passing through it like the sun through a film of oil. It is only when the creature moves that it seems exceptional, with a swiftness far beyond anything a human could possibly hope for.

The Dattar is a creature dedicated to doing good through evil acts. The ultimate manifestation of the belief that the ends justify the means, the Dattar will do whatever it takes, no matter how morally repugnant, if it advances the cause of good. Sometimes this means killing an innocent that might, at some point in the future, present some danger to the world. Other times it means slaughtering a whole nation and framing an evil king so that the forces of good will finally unite against the gathering threat. The Dattar is firmly committed, intellectually, to good, even as its black soul drives it inevitably towards truly vile acts.

The Dattar’s other central characteristic is a hatred of pomp and arrogance. The Dattar has suffered at the hands of both sides of the battle for good and evil. The creatures of evil who foolishly believe their power justifies dominating others and the “champions” of good who think their strength gives them the right the judge, or even to impede, the Dattar himself. He has no time for such self aggrandizement and takes great pleasure in knocking haughty enemies from their station, leaving them impotent and ordinary to ponder their failure.

In conversation the Dattar sounds like a jaded cynic. He has existed for millennia, suffering for most of that time, and hates just about everyone and everything. Still, the creature is not without a dark sense of humor and its self deprecation and devotion to its cause makes it an interesting travel companion for those that do not get in its way or offend its sensibilities.

Background

The Dattar is a creature created as a weapon of the devils, some say by the hands of Asmodeuous himself. The idea was to create a creature powerful enough to challenge even the greatest of celestial beings while posing no threat to even the lowliest of demons. To do this, the creature was actually created from the corrupted essences of archons that had been captured in the never ending war between light and darkness. Unfortunately for its dark master, they succeeded too well.

The creature indeed could not harm the devils, but at the same time the essences at its core made it sympathetic towards good. For a thousand years it battled across the planes, filling the heavens with the blood of its protectors. But the tides never shifted. The Dattar began to realize that it was the height of arrogance to think that the question of good versus evil could ever be decided through this kind of combat. It was only in the world of the mortal creatures, those not committed to one side or the other by birth, that the struggle was truly being fought.

Having recognized this, the Dattar abandoned both sides and wandered the material, searching for purpose. As it did, it came to hate both sides of the struggle for which it was made. Intellectually committed to good, the Dattar was repulsed by the arrogance of mortal and angel alike that claimed they knew how to bring good about but either ended up corrupted or proved unwilling to risk their own souls to save the world they professed to love. As for evil, the Dattar continued to suffer under the torment of even the lowliest of evil beings when they found him. As he foiled their plans they pursued him, the Dattar could do nothing but run like a frightened animal, lest he be captured and unable to fight back.

While the heavens seek the destruction of the Dattar for the pain he has brought to the world, the hells seem more forgiving in spite of the fact that it is their plans and aims he is strives to foil. Some believe this indicates that, despite the Dattar’s drive towards good he, like all other devils, fits somewhere in the far reaching and subtle machination of Asmodeus.


Special Attacks


Euthanize (Ex): Any time the Dattar successfully pins a creature with a discernable anatomy the Dattar may euthanize the creature as a free action. If the creature has fewer than 18 hit dice it dies immediately with no save. If the creature has more than 18 hit dice it may make a DC 31 Fort save to avoid death (STR based) Even if the save is made the creature takes 10d6 non-lethal damage and is considered nauseated for 2d6 rounds. The Dattar may also attempt to euthanize a creature with 20 HD or fewer any time it lands a critical strike with a melee weapon. This attack must land, deal damage and cannot be a touch attack.

Genocide (Su): Any time a creature is killed by euthanize’s death effect, the Dattar may choose to force nearby creatures to also make a save to avoid death. Any creatures of the same HD or fewer as the creature killed that are also within 100 ft. of the Dattar must make a DC 31 Fort save or die (STR base). Creatures killed in this way usually appear to have simply dropped dead, however the Dattar may also choose to simulate any kind of brutal wound or damage, including fire. Such wounds are non-magical, and require a DC 35 spot check to notice inconsistencies that suggest they are not normal wounds.

Pride Goeth(Su): With a successfully touch attack the Dattar may grant a creature any or all of the following bonuses for one day: +5 to attack and damage, +6 to any attribute, +10 to a single skill, +2 to all skills, 3d8 temporary hit points, the ability to reroll one failed save at a +10 bonus. All of these bonuses are considered Pride bonuses and stack. The Dattar can not target himself with this ability. Creatures may resist this effect with a DC 20 Will Save, but they are aware of the bonus or bonuses they are about to receive and the ability is considered harmless.

Spell Like abilities:

At Will: Deeper Darkness, Freedom of Movement, Sanctuary, Undetectable Alignment, Dispel Magic, dimension door; 1/per hour – Unholy Blight, Mindblank, anti-magic field, Earthquake, true seeing, shapechange (medium humanoid only); 1/per day – Baleful Polymorph, Dimensional Anchor, wish, Greater prying eyes, Discern location; 1/per week -- Eclipse, Damnation

The Dattar also has access to spells as though a tenth level blackguard.

Humble (Su): The Dattar may render a creature ordinary by taking a full round action and making a touch attack in order to humble them. If the attack is successful, the effects of humble proceed according to the following table. When a completion condition is reached, the next stage of the effect begins on the following round.

Stage|Effect each round|completion condition|
1| Creature shrinks or expands by one size category |creature is medium size
2| Creature takes 3 points of permanent attribute drain to all attributes above 10 | All attributes are below 10
3|All trained skills with more than 4 ranks the Creature possesses are reduced by 5 ranks| no skill has more than four ranks
4| Creature suffers 5d6 points of permanent level or HD drain, Level/HD cannot fall below one| creature is at 1 HD.
5| All Magical items and weapons of masterwork quality or greater wielded or worn by the creature drop to its feet. The creature can no longer wear, wield, hold or activate any magical item or weapon of masterwork quality or better|one round passes
6|Creature loses all supernatural or spell like abilities | one round passes
7|Creature loses any extraordinary abilities or special ability not granted by its type or subtype| one round passes


The effect ends when all seven stages have concluded.

Creatures currently affected by pride goeth take a -10 penalty to AC against the touch attack that starts this effect. They also are not permitted saves. Other creatures may make a save at DC 35 + 3 for each ability score above 18. This save must be made each round to delay the effects of the ability until the next round. This DC is charisma based For each additional humble attack made by the Dattar against a creature already subject to humble the save DC increases by +5. The save is always made using the creature’s worst save after modifiers are taken into effect.

Making three successful saves in a row ends the effect but does not restore previously lost characteristics. A creature may gain a +15 bonus to this save if they spend the entire round concentrating on maintaining themselves as they are and take no other action. A side effect of this ability is an inherent desire to do just that, and a character must specifically choose not attempt to retain the features that make it special or it automatically attempts to do so as long as it is conscious.

A wish or miracle can be used to guarantee success on this save for one round or reverse the effects of the previous round, however, this also causes the caster of that spell to be subject to the humble effect. If the caster of the spell is currently suffering from humble their save DC increases by +10 in the following round.

The changes wrought by this ability can not be reversed or restored, even by a wish or miracle spell. Additionally, a creature that lost class levels can not gain any new levels of any class from which they lost levels. Only the Dattar or the direct intervention of a major deity can restore a creature’s former glory. If granted by the Dattar restoration takes one full day and requires that the humbled creature be on the same plane as the Dattar.


Special qualities:

Wiley (Ex): The Dattar is adept at evading hostile creatures without fighting and gains evasion, improved evasion and defensive roll. The Dattar gains the benefits of these abilities even if helpless or denied its dexterity bonus to AC, so long as it is conscious.

Crusader’s Boon (Ex): Any weapon wielded by the Dattar is treated as epic for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. In the deft hands of the Dattar wielded weapons are also treated as though a +6 Keen Wounding weapon of its type. These bonuses are on top of any other magical bonuses the weapon may possess and are not considered to be magical bonuses for the purposes of being dispelled or suppressed by an anti-magic field. When removed from the Dattar’s possession the weapon reverts to its normal state. These bonuses are not included in the Attack line of the Dattar’s stat bloc.

Eternal Mission (Ex): If reduced to less then zero hit points the Dattar is not destroyed. Rather the Dattar is reconstituted on a random Lawful Evil plane 1d10 days later. Even a successful use of wish or miracle in conjunction with the Dattar’s destruction can not end the creatures existence, though it can be used to help trap the creature somewhere it can hopefully be contained.

Perdition’s Son (Ex): The Dattar is prevented from damaging non-good creatures, requiring a DC 50 Will save to take or aid a hostile action against an evil creature. Any creature of evil alignment is immune to all of the Datar's special abilities. If a Dattar manages to take an action that leads directly to the harm of any creature with an evil alignment the Dattar loses five times as much HP as the victim or victims and takes 1 point of temporary wisdom damage for each hit dice of the affected creature. If this is a direct attack from the Dattar any creature with an evil alignment may make a DC 10 Fort or Ref save to ignore any damage or negative effect. Any evil creature that is affected by a spell or effect cast by the Dattar may negate the spell with a DC 10 Will save in addition to the Fort save to ignore negative effects.

Beings of pure evil such as demons and devils gain even greater protection. Attacks and abilities used by the Dattar can not target creatures with the evil sub-type or any outsider of evil alignment. Even physical attacks are blunted and rendered harmless by this ability. Natural or wielded weapons pass through these creatures as though brilliant energy weapons passing through stone, and they may ignore spells cast by the Dattar at will. The beings may also ignore the Dattar’s damage reduction.

Creatures of neutral alignment on the good evil axis gain some benefits as well. They may make Opposed Level checks against the Dattar in place of the saves to ignore negative effects and gain a +10 Alignment bonus to AC and Saves when facing a Dattar.

Creatures of Good Alignment gain no such benefits. The Dattar unerringly detects the alignment of all creatures within 400 ft. Effects that attempt to disguise or hide alignment are ignored by this ability even if they are divine in origin or the result of major artifacts.


Archon traits: The Dattar has some of the benefits of his archon nature.
Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
Aura of Menace (Su): A righteous aura surrounds the Datter when it fights or get angry. Any hostile creature within a 20-foot radius of must succeed on a Will save to resist its effects. The save DC is Charisma-based, and includes a +2 racial bonus. Those who fail take a -2 penalty on attacks, AC, and saves for 24 hours or until they successfully hit the Datter. A creature that has resisted or broken the effect cannot be affected again by the aura for 24 hours.
Immunity to electricity and petrification.
+4 racial bonus on saves against poison.
Teleport (Su): The Dattar can use greater teleport at will, as the spell (caster level 14th), except that the creature can transport only itself and up to 50 pounds of objects.
Tongues (Su): The Dattar can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level 14th). This ability is always active.


Combat

When confronted by evil beings the Dattar will attempt to flee as best he can, fearful of capture. When confronted by good the Dattar attacks unceasingly. He is committed to their side, but cares nothing for their life or death. Though he prefers to use humility, rather than killing his opponents outright, he will murder them if pressed for time or suspicious of treachery.

Ideally he identifies potential threats early and comes to them in the guise of a helper, offering them the benefits of pride goeth in order to set them up for a later battle.
[/B]

[mauslin]

Gah, I like the idea behind this monster, but I hate it's backstory. I'm heisitant to say this, as I'm pretty sure you actually are a better designer then me, but I feel that the story is too complicated, and lacks personality.
Here's a few things I feel are problems.

1) IMO, this Dattar would be more interesting as a partially redeemed greater devil. The concept of a corrupted or fallen angel has been done over and over again; but the idea of a redeemed devil? Almost never.

2) I don't really understand why Dattar is Lawful Evil. The actions described are actually quite chaotic, and 'Ends justifies the means' if the ends are truely good is neutral.

3) He's supposed to be going around killing little kids to stop them from becoming future evil overlords, but he doesn't appear to have any ability to actually predict which kids will do so.

4) How exactly is he evading both the forces of good and evil?? Why don't they just cast Discern Location and teleport straight to him?

[talse]

does humble just make halflings dissapear in 4 turns when they shrink to tinier to fine? because they're small, and they won't shrink to medium, the stopping condition of that stage.

[Poppatomus]

does humble just make halflings dissapear in 4 turns when they shrink to tinier to fine? because they're small, and they won't shrink to medium, the stopping condition of that stage.

The Creature shrinks or expands. The goal isn't to make them smaller, it's to make them ordinary. Smaller creatures get bonuses to AC just as larger creatures gain various attack advantages. Medium creatures, on the other hand, get no bonuses either way.

[Poppatomus]

Thanks for the feedback mauslin (and for the flattery, unfounded though it may be)



but I feel that the story is too complicated, and lacks personality.
Here's a few things I feel are problems.


THe backstory is my biggest problem with the monster in my opinion as well. the original idea was to create something that was clearly evil, but had a reason to intellectually favor good. The one I went with for this iteration was the fourth possible back story.



1) IMO, this Dattar would be more interesting as a partially redeemed greater devil. The concept of a corrupted or fallen angel has been done over and over again; but the idea of a redeemed devil? Almost never.


That's sort of the idea. It isn't meant to be a fallen angel. It's meant to be a devil infused with angelic essence. Re-reading it I see this point is extemely unclear. I'll need to figure out a way to make this aspect of the creature more apparent.



2) I don't really understand why Dattar is Lawful Evil. The actions described are actually quite chaotic, and 'Ends justifies the means' if the ends are truely good is neutral.


I see this as deriving not just from his devilish nature but also from his intellectual committment to evil. The Dattar has a code of behavior that it follows and a set goal for its actions. The ends justify the means part describes his willingness to do evil to achieve good, rather than a willingness to bend the rules as it suits his purposes (at least any more than other lawful evil manipulators.)



3) He's supposed to be going around killing little kids to stop them from becoming future evil overlords, but he doesn't appear to have any ability to actually predict which kids will do so.


Exactly. I gave him gather info and knowledge of the planes and religion to give him a head start (plus true seeing and some basic scrying), but I don't want him to always know who the right person is supernaturally. He kills the wrong person sometimes, or kills a bunch of people that might be the right person. He isn't concerned with the others, so long as he gets at the evil. Think the terminator in terminator one (in approach to the problem not attitude). He needs to kill Sarah Conner, so he starts with the first one in the phone book and moves down, either until he kills them all or gets more evidence to point out which one is the right one.



4) How exactly is he evading both the forces of good and evil?? Why don't they just cast Discern Location and teleport straight to him?
[/quote]

It's more a question of what you send against him. This is a CR 30 monster with a fair bit of esapability if he faces a force that he thinks represents a real threat. Not to mention that even a Solar fails the save against being humbled on a roll of 16 or less. That's a big risk to take for a slim chance at victory, especially when there's an outside shot that he's doing something that, in the end, is going to help your side.

He does get limited protection from scrying as a result of having mindblank as a spell like ability. Also, I'm not sure I want him to be completely protected, this isn't meant to be a dragon, sitting in some lonely cave hidden from all but the most intrepid adventurer. he's out, in the world somewhere, hidden more by virtue of the fact that to most outside observers he just looks like another human. In an early version of the backstory he had some protection resulting from Asmodeus' personal like for him, but I guess that's sort of the "a wizard did it" way out.

Still, to the extent that you can't just ask this question about any Big Bad this is something I will need to think about how to fix. Any ideas on how I can address this deficiancy without making him totally undetectable?

[mauslin]

THe backstory is my biggest problem with the monster in my opinion as well. the original idea was to create something that was clearly evil, but had a reason to intellectually favor good. The one I went with for this iteration was the fourth possible back story.


Yeah, I really like the idea of a being like that too.


That's sort of the idea. It isn't meant to be a fallen angel. It's meant to be a devil infused with angelic essence. Re-reading it I see this point is extemely unclear. I'll need to figure out a way to make this aspect of the creature more apparent.

I'm a bit confused as to why the devil has to be infused with angelic essence. I mean, it's your creation, but I personally perfer a devil true.

It's always bugged me that apparently some angels, paragons of good, decide to be evil, but devils never seem to decide to be good.

Here's what I would like. Dattar was either a goodly mortal, or an evil mortal on the cusp of redeemtion, in the distant past. Then he got hit by the epic Accursed (http://community.dicefreaks.com/PDF/TGoH2.pdf) spell (on page four), and got turned into a lemure in hell with no memories.

In time, he advanced into a kickass pit fiend, maybe even diabolic nobility. Then he got hit by an epic spell that partially restored his memories, giving him a vision of the joy he once knew, and the fact that it was stolen from him.

So then he breaks from hell, determined to defend the source of the joy he once knew. But, well, he's still a devil, and so he's gonna defend it like a devil.


I see this as deriving not just from his devilish nature but also from his intellectual committment to evil. The Dattar has a code of behavior that it follows and a set goal for its actions. The ends justify the means part describes his willingness to do evil to achieve good, rather than a willingness to bend the rules as it suits his purposes (at least any more than other lawful evil manipulators.)

I kind of feel that willingness to commit evil to achieve good, so long as it's truely good that you're accomplishing, averages out into neutral. Of course, he could have a skewed view of what's good.

One thing I'd give him is a death before disgrace mentality; i.e. I'll kill you before you can become evil. He sees a paladin that's in risk of falling? Better do her a favor and kill her, or else she might go to hell.
Controversely, I'd have him hesitate to kill evil people who might be swayed to goodness.


Exactly. I gave him gather info and knowledge of the planes and religion to give him a head start (plus true seeing and some basic scrying), but I don't want him to always know who the right person is supernaturally. He kills the wrong person sometimes, or kills a bunch of people that might be the right person. He isn't concerned with the others, so long as he gets at the evil. Think the terminator in terminator one (in approach to the problem not attitude). He needs to kill Sarah Conner, so he starts with the first one in the phone book and moves down, either until he kills them all or gets more evidence to point out which one is the right one.

Hmm, that is a good point. I would have him really interested in trying to find ways to see the future. Looking for prophesies, artifacts related to time travel, bugging oracles.
Heh, a pretty good adventure seed would be trying to rescue a powerful oracle that he'd kidnapped :smalltongue:

I'll finish the rest in a second post

[mauslin]

It's more a question of what you send against him. This is a CR 30 monster with a fair bit of esapability if he faces a force that he thinks represents a real threat. Not to mention that even a Solar fails the save against being humbled on a roll of 16 or less. That's a big risk to take for a slim chance at victory, especially when there's an outside shot that he's doing something that, in the end, is going to help your side.

He does get limited protection from scrying as a result of having mindblank as a spell like ability. Also, I'm not sure I want him to be completely protected, this isn't meant to be a dragon, sitting in some lonely cave hidden from all but the most intrepid adventurer. he's out, in the world somewhere, hidden more by virtue of the fact that to most outside observers he just looks like another human. In an early version of the backstory he had some protection resulting from Asmodeus' personal like for him, but I guess that's sort of the "a wizard did it" way out.

Still, to the extent that you can't just ask this question about any Big Bad this is something I will need to think about how to fix. Any ideas on how I can address this deficiancy without making him totally undetectable?

Well, number one, I'd have heaven less hostile toward him. Instead, have them trying to convert him.
If Dattar's smart, he'll encourage the idea that he could be converted, even if he has no intention of doing so; if it means that the more powerful solars will pull their punches, he'll at least listen to what they're saying.

You could carry this further if you wanted; have some angels convinced he's a threat that must be eliminated, others wanting to leave him alone in hopes he'll come into the light given time, and still others wanting to capture him so they can lead him into the light without him causing more damage. And then all three factions working against one another. The resulting confusion would give Dattar some room to manouver.

Hell's a bit more difficult however. He is a traitor, and for that most devils would have no hesitation in destroying him. One thing I'd remove is his inability to hurt lawful evil creatures; I'd at least change it to cannot hurt fiends, and preferably remove it all together. Otherwise, all a party has to do to defeat him is gate in a pit fiend and Dattar is screwed.
Instead, I'd replace it with a hesitation to attack devils, because if he attracts to much attention he's going to get his ass royally kicked.

I still might have Asmodeus secretly favoring him, if nothing else then for causing discord in heaven. He might also be having fun arranging things so that what appears to Dattar to be the best action to defend good ultimately leading to the betterment of Hell.
As an outward manifestation of this favor, I'd have the standing orders be to capture Dattar and bring him back to Hell for punishment and destruction. I would assign devils to this task, but purposely choose incompetant ones.

I got to go, will finish this up tommorrow.

[Poppatomus]

I very much appreciate the help. I eagerly await your conclusion and will wait for it to be posted before responding.

[Callix]

On the ability, the save DC is very steep, especially if the Dattar buffs the barbarian's Intelligence and Charisma for a few rounds, then Humbles him. By boosting dump stats, he makes the save much harder. This is decidedly epic, and it might be a smidge over CR 30, at least by my reckoning. Then again, Epic Spellcasting can do anything. See the Permanent Planetar Loop for examples.

[Poppatomus]

On the ability, the save DC is very steep, especially if the Dattar buffs the barbarian's Intelligence and Charisma for a few rounds, then Humbles him. By boosting dump stats, he makes the save much harder. This is decidedly epic, and it might be a smidge over CR 30, at least by my reckoning. Then again, Epic Spellcasting can do anything. See the Permanent Planetar Loop for examples.

Thanks for the help. The pride goeth bonus really shouldn't be an issue for a smart party, since if they do a little research into what they're fighting they should know enough to be wary of accepting such a gift. If they gleefully accept the bonus from such a creature then they deserve to face a bit more of a challenge. (Long spoon and all that.) At the same time, they can resist the bonus if they choose to. perhaps I will lower the save DC on the bonus, to make the intent clearer.

I do want this to be a truly epic spell in terms of its effect, but I don't want it to be as cheesy as epic spell casting. I hope that's where it is.

[Poppatomus]

Hell's a bit more difficult however. He is a traitor, and for that most devils would have no hesitation in destroying him. One thing I'd remove is his inability to hurt lawful evil creatures; I'd at least change it to cannot hurt fiends, and preferably remove it all together. Otherwise, all a party has to do to defeat him is gate in a pit fiend and Dattar is screwed.
Instead, I'd replace it with a hesitation to attack devils, because if he attracts to much attention he's going to get his ass royally kicked.


I've changed the backstory in the stickied thread, though I'm still not entirely happy with it. Though I am still going to wait before a larger response, I wanted to address the poitn above. I don't feel that I can take away this ability entirely. What I want to do is prevent any campaign that uses him from having him just go on down to hell and start killing devils and demons. That's too cliche a way to handle the big bad guy that can't get over his evil nature but wants to do good. ("oh, just send him off to fight the bad guys, then he can't hurt the innocent at all.") I feel like there needs to be a hard stop on that kind of story decision.

Maybe humble should be applicable to evil creatures, even outsiders, but it's only a temporary effect / immediatly dispells itself once the creature returns to its plane of origin. This way he could take them out of the fight, avoiding the gate scenario. I'll have to think on a mechanic.

[mauslin]

Hmm, I actually made most of my points last night :smalltongue: . Here's a few last suggestions

1) You need to give a caster level for his spell like abilities. This is needed to determine how long his spells will last, and how difficult they are to dispel.

2) Shapechange (humanoids only) 1/hour is wierd.
You do realize that the duration for Shapechange is 10 mins/per caster level? A wizard has to be at least level 17 to cast it; so at the minimum caster level, Shapechange lasts 2 hrs 50 mins. So 1/hour means that Dattar can do it all the time.
If that's what you want Dattar to be able to do, why don't you just give him the succubus version of this ability, Polymorph (humanoids only, permanent duration) at will? That's much less confusing.

Even simpler, give him the Alternate Form special quality (pg 305, MM). That actually fits this concept the best. Unlike shapechange or polymorph, Alternate Form can't be dispelled.
IMO it would also be easier to run, because Alternate Form doesn't restore your hitpoints every time you use it. As it stands, Dattar can cast shapechange, transform into a human for one round, then return to his normal form with full hitpoints. With 245 hp, fast healing 6, and dimension door, that's crazy broken.

3) He so should have this feat (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Touch_of_Benevolence,CR)

4) I'd personally reduce his hit dice and give him some class levels. A monk/assassin would be good. You could actually get a bunch of the feats you've selected for free, allowing you to select others.

You could also have a paladin/blackguard; the paladin levels could be from the restored memories I suggested earlier.

[Poppatomus]

All good suggestions.

1. ) Yea, caster level stuff got lost in my hurry to get it out of my head and posted. I do have to run through that.

2.) I did know the duration. The idea was that he could change his form when he needed to, and didn't have to cast every hour, but also wasn't just a shapeshifter, owing to the time limitation and the need to recast it. I wasn't aware of that succubus ability, which is perfect, and I will probably switch it to that shortly.

3.) Trying to stay away from splat books as much as possible, though I might build that feat into a character I am designing atm.

4.) I don't feel comfortable giving him class levels. Not only does it vastly increase the complexity of the monster, it also reflects a level of training I don't think he necessarily possesses, especially when it comes to the martial classes that would best fit the character.

I think I might give him the ability to sort of banish summoned creatures of any alignment, which would provide another reason for him to want to stay on the material.

[Guildorn Tanaleth]

Stage|Effect each round|completion condition|
2| Creature takes 3 points of permanent attribute drain to all attributes above 10 | All attributes are below 10



If a creature has a stat of 10+3n, for some nonegative integer n, this will eventually cause the effect to stall at stage 2, not doing anything, until the stat is adjusted by a number other than a multiple of three. To correct this, you should either change the effect to act on all attributes above or equal to 10 or else make the stage complete when all attributes are below or equal to 10.



A wish or miracle can be used to guarantee success on this save for one round or reverse the effects of the previous round...

The changes wrought by this ability can not be reversed or restored, even by a wish or miracle spell.

Can wishes & miracles reverse effects from the previous round or not?

[mauslin]

I still don't like the backstory. This guy's not nearly powerful enough for it.

Here's what I mean. Look at Glasya, Princess of Hell, pg 27 of this link (http://community.dicefreaks.com/PDF/TGoH8.pdf). This is the power level I'd expect of a direct decendant of Asmodeus.

If your curious where I'm getting this from, here's the link (http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=88) to the whole book.

[Poppatomus]

I have seen that version of asmodeus in the links you send, I am thinking more the BoVD version (himself only a CR 32 monster). Really, any powerful Devil could be substituted for Asmodeus, and his appeal is in the planning rather than the power level. A creature of that power level actually living in the world is distressing. Also, I don't really intend him to be the offspring the way Glasya is, its a far less potent connection.

Hmmm... Trying to decide if the way to fix this is by vastly simplifying the backstory or making it much more complex.

Thanks for the links by the way, I love the background stuff.

[Poppatomus]

If a creature has a stat of 10+3n, for some nonegative integer n, this will eventually cause the effect to stall at stage 2, not doing anything, until the stat is adjusted by a number other than a multiple of three. To correct this, you should either change the effect to act on all attributes above or equal to 10 or else make the stage complete when all attributes are below or equal to 10.



Can wishes & miracles reverse effects from the previous round or not?

Thank you, both will be corrected. (the answer to the second is yes, what they can't do is reverse the ability once it has run its course.)

[Poppatomus]

::carefully sets trap::