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BlackLamb
2016-10-01, 10:11 AM
I'm trying to make clear division between combat and non-combat spells. To help discourage cheating and/or players accidentally picking sub-optimal spells because of casting times. I'm not 100% happy with ritual groupings or DCs, so feedback is appreciated.

By taking the Ritualist feat a character is capable of completing rituals by making the requisite skill check and spending the requisite time.

Each ritual is associated with one of six skills; Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Regional), Knowledge Religion, or Spellcraft.

Rituals take 8 hrs to complete per 5 points of base DC. This gives players time to spoil adversary's rituals and opportunities to defend their own rituals from attack.

The spell/skill groupings are as follows:

Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering)

Fabricate (Sor/Wiz 5) DC 20 + 1 per 10 cu ft created
Forbiddance (Clr 6) DC 30
Illusory Script (Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3) DC 15
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (Brd 3, Knowledge 3, Sor/Wiz 3) DC 25
Create Food and Water (Clr 3) DC 25
Geas / Quest (Brd 6, Clr 6, Sor/Wiz 6) DC 30
Secret Page (Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3) DC 25
Symbol of Death (Clr 8, Sor/Wiz 8) DC 35
Symbol of Stunning (Clr 7, Sor/Wiz 7) DC 35
Move Earth (Drd 6, Sor/Wiz 6) DC 30 + 1 per 150 ft x 150 ft sq
Scrying (Brd 3, Clr 5, Drd 4, Sor/Wiz 4) DC 20
Ironwood (Drd 6) DC 20 + 1 per lb created
Find the Path (Brd 6, Clr 6, Knowledge 6, Travel 6, Drd 6) DC 25
Binding (Sor/Wiz 8) DC 25

Knowledge (History)

Augury (Clr 2) DC 15
Minor Creation (Sor/Wiz 4) DC 20
Clone (Sor/Wiz 8) DC 35
Demand (Sor/Wiz 8) DC 35
Glyph of Warding (Clr 3) DC 25
Glyph of Warding, Greater (Clr 6) DC 30
Major Creation (Sor/Wiz 5) DC 30
Sending (Clr 4, Sor/Wiz 5) DC 30
Symbol of Fear (Clr 6, Sor/Wiz 6) DC 30
Symbol of Weakness (Clr 7, Sor/Wiz 7) DC 35
Astral Projection (Clr 9, Travel 9, Sor/Wiz 9) DC 60
Simulacrum (Sor/Wiz 7) DC 35
Contact Other Plane (Sor/Wiz 5) DC 30
Phantom Steed (Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3) DC 25

Knowledge (Nature)

Prying Eyes (Sor/Wiz 5) DC 20
Prying Eyes, Greater (Sor/Wiz 8) DC 25
Discern Location (Clr 8, Knowledge 8, Sor/Wiz 8) DC 35
Hallucinatory Terrain (Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 4) DC 30
Reincarnate (Drd 4) DC 30
Sepia Snake Sigil (Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3) DC 25
Symbol of Insanity (Clr 8, Sor/Wiz 8) DC 35
Sympathetic Vibration (Brd 6) DC 30
Guards and Wards (Sor/Wiz 6) DC 50
Liveoak (Drd 6) DC 30
Awaken (Drd 5) DC 45
Commune with Nature (Animal 5, Drd 5, Pal 4) DC 30
Snare (Drd 3, Rgr 2) DC 20
Spellstaff (Drd 6) DC 30

Knowledge (Regional)

Regenerate (Clr 7, Healing 7, Drd 9) DC 25
Bless Water (Clr 1, Pal 1) DC 10
Curse Water (Clr 1) DC 10
Raise Dead (Clr 5) DC 20
Divination (Clr 4, Knowledge 4) DC 30
Heroes' Feast (Brd 6, Clr 6) DC 30
Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum (Sor/Wiz 5) DC 30
Resurrection (Clr 7) DC 35
Speak with Dead (Clr 3) DC 25
Symbol of Pain (Clr 5, Sor/Wiz 5) DC 30
True Resurrection (Clr 9) DC 40
Antipathy (Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 8) DC 25
Sympathy (Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 8) DC 25
Mark of Justice (Clr 5, Pal 4) DC 30

Knowledge (Religion)
Restoration (Clr 4, Pal 4) DC 20
Restoration, Lesser (Clr 2, Drd 2, Pal 1) DC 15
Break Enchantment (Brd 4, Clr 5, Luck 5, Pal 4, Sor/Wiz 5) DC 20
Elemental Swarm (Air 9, Earth 9, Fire 9, Water 9, Drd 9) DC 40
Imbue with Spell Ability (Clr 4, Magic 4) DC 30
Restoration, Greater (Clr 7) DC 35
Symbol of Persuasion (Clr 6, Sor/Wiz 6) DC 30
Teleportation Circle (Sor/Wiz 9) DC 40
Atonement (Clr 5, Drd 5) DC 20
Planar Ally (Clr 6) DC 30
Hallow (Clr 5, Drd 5) DC 45
Unhallow (Clr 5, Drd 5) DC 45
Commune (Clr 5) DC 30
Control Weather (Clr 7, Air 7, Drd 7, Sor/Wiz 7) DC 35

Spellcraft

Dream (Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 5) DC 20
Arcane Eye (Sor/Wiz 4) DC 30
Fire Trap (Drd 2, Sor/Wiz 4) DC 25
Leomund's Secret Chest (Sor/Wiz 5) DC 30
Leomund's Secure Shelter (Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 4) DC 30
Nightmare (Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 5) DC 30
Screen (Trickery 7, Sor/Wiz 8) DC 35
Stone Tell (Drd 6) DC 30
Symbol of Sleep (Clr 5, Sor/Wiz 5) DC 30
Legend Lore (Brd 4, Knowledge 7, Sor/Wiz 6) DC 35
Create Greater Undead (Clr 8, Death 8, Sor/Wiz 8) DC 25
Create Undead (Clr 6, Death 6, Evil 6, Sor/Wiz 6) DC 20
Planar Binding (Sor/Wiz 6) DC 30
Planar Binding, Greater (Sor/Wiz 8) DC 35

Spells not included as rituals are Contingency, Identify, Lesser Planar Ally, Lesser Planar Binding, Permanency, and Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer. I either don't think they should be separate spells or belong in the game.

Some spell/skills got grouped because they felt right to me, but most are just random so feedback would be appreciated.

DCs are based on casting times and spell level and I freely admit to not being great knowing what I should expect at what level, so again feedback would be appreciated.

I googled a bit for other work in this vein, because I'm lazy and didn't want to re-invent the wheel so if someone's already done this better, feel free to point me in that direction.

Thanks.

Deepbluediver
2016-10-01, 11:12 PM
8 hours per 5-points of DC seems a little extreme- Create Food & Water takes 40 hours, or almost 2 days, for example. And Astral Projection takes 4 days; in that amount of time I could almost level up a wizard and just cast it normally :P

inuyasha
2016-10-02, 12:26 AM
Yeah, some of these are much too long. Two whole days so that I can converse with some rocks? The time it takes to create food and water will start me on the path of dehydration/starvation, or make me actually get worse if that was already an issue. Sixteen straight hours for a vial of holy water seems a bit much too. I think Clairvoyance/Clairaudience is best used in spontaneous situations as well, not working too great as a ritual.

Beyond that, I have to ask, what's knowledge (regional) and why will it let me cast things like regenerate and symbol of pain?!

EDIT: And doesn't something like this already sort of exist in Unearthed Arcana?

BlackLamb
2016-10-02, 09:46 AM
Thanks for the feedback guys!

Would something like 30 minutes per point of DC be okay? I'd like a broad rule instead of each being specific, but if that's not feasible, I could go back to PHB casting times.

I intended something like this to completely replace the ability to cast these spells from slots, not complement the ability to cast from slots. It's a power replacement, not a power boost.

I tried to pick all the spells that take too long to cast in combat anyway. Clauraudience/Clairvoyance might be better as a more spontaneous spell, but it takes 10 minutes to cast as per PHB. Would just eliminating the spell entirely and relying solely on Scrying be better?

Knowledge (Regional) is homebrew skill that replaces Knowledges (Local) & (Geography) and includes insights into cultures and laws of Humanoids, Monstrous Humanoids and Giants. I know I'm working with a lot of homebrew already, but I still think it's striking distance from 3.X. I don't really know why it should have Regenerate or Symbol of Pain specifically other than to round the skills/spells out. Do you think the Symbol of *Blank* spells should be pulled out and given their own skill, something like Decipher Script/Forgery?

Something like this does sort of exist in UA, but it's less defined than what I have written down. That's why I'm trying to hammer these things out.

Thanks for your help!

Eldan
2016-10-02, 10:47 AM
Even then. Just not worth it for the vast majority. Especially low level ones. Create Food and Water is something you want to cast daily on a long journey. You can't journey if you spend 12 hours casting. Even worse for the kind of thingyou need in a dungeon. Imagine if you need to spy on someone with Prying Eyes. Can you spend hours preparing for that? Not really, they'll be gone by then. Discern Location? Who's going to stay still all day for you to find.

I'd say put it at one hour, max. For almost all of them. Otherwise, they become useless.

Deepbluediver
2016-10-02, 11:26 AM
Would something like 30 minutes per point of DC be okay? I'd like a broad rule instead of each being specific, but if that's not feasible, I could go back to PHB casting times.
You're talking to someone who absolutely LOVES generic rules like that- if for no other reason than once you lay it out it's easy to add more stuff as you think of it. Having "X per Y" rules about mechanics means that for any additional stuff you want to add, the work is already partly done.
I'm really just saying that to show that I understand what you're thinking about. And, that being said, I also know that it can be really REALLY difficult to get it right.

Part of the issue here is that there is some really disparate stuff in terms of how useful all these are. Unless "Create Food & Water" can provide you with a week's worth of food, it's not helpful to have to spend several hours casting it. Even if you dropped the time to "10 minutes per point of DC" that's more than 4 hours a day. Now, if you wanted to be realistic, hunting/gathering while traveling might take you that much time, and in a pinch this ritual might help someone (say, for example, you're stuck in a desert where food is scarce), but most players won't give these a second glance.

On the other hand, if you can use Teleportation circle to travel hundreds of miles in a single jump, skipping over rough terrain and dangerous creatures, it might be worth it (with a 10-minutes per point of DC casting time that is).


I intended something like this to completely replace the ability to cast these spells from slots, not complement the ability to cast from slots. It's a power replacement, not a power boost.

I tried to pick all the spells that take too long to cast in combat anyway. Clauraudience/Clairvoyance might be better as a more spontaneous spell, but it takes 10 minutes to cast as per PHB. Would just eliminating the spell entirely and relying solely on Scrying be better?
What exactly is your overall goal here? Part of the problem with judging homebrew is that everyone has different ideas of what it should be or needs to be doing. And I don't want to be pushing my way of doing things on you if that's not in line with what you think your game needs.


Knowledge (Regional) is homebrew skill that replaces Knowledges (Local) & (Geography) and includes insights into cultures and laws of Humanoids, Monstrous Humanoids and Giants.
Just an FYI for the way I did it- I cut the "Knowledge(X)" skills down to just 6 different ones; I folded Knowledge(Local) into Gather information and Knowledge(Geography) into Survival.
And I think Teleportation Circle would fit better under Knowledge(The Planes) anyway.


Do you think the Symbol of *Blank* spells should be pulled out and given their own skill, something like Decipher Script/Forgery?
Yes. A lot of the Restoration stuff should go under Healing, for example.

Grod_The_Giant
2016-10-02, 12:30 PM
Even then. Just not worth it for the vast majority. Especially low level ones. Create Food and Water is something you want to cast daily on a long journey. You can't journey if you spend 12 hours casting. Even worse for the kind of thingyou need in a dungeon. Imagine if you need to spy on someone with Prying Eyes. Can you spend hours preparing for that? Not really, they'll be gone by then. Discern Location? Who's going to stay still all day for you to find.

I'd say put it at one hour, max. For almost all of them. Otherwise, they become useless.
Agreed. When I did a ritual caster homebrew, I set the time at 10 minutes/spell level. If you want to base the time on the DC, I think 1-2 minutes/point of DC would be appropriate.

Eldan
2016-10-02, 04:21 PM
Agreed. When I did a ritual caster homebrew, I set the time at 10 minutes/spell level. If you want to base the time on the DC, I think 1-2 minutes/point of DC would be appropriate.

Hey, I die gen minutes per spell level too, for my rituals! Seems a gold time in General.

AtlasSniperman
2016-10-02, 05:11 PM
First of all; Shameless Plug (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444517-Feng-Shui-Magic-in-zones) as you and I seem to have similar tastes.

But as for whether or not Ritual magic has been done before.
In Dec 2000, Gary Gygax released a book called "Relics and Rituals". Which included converting existing spells to rituals(with ritual time being based off caster time and spell level) and true rituals created specifically for that system.

BlackLamb
2016-10-09, 10:24 AM
Thanks for the feedback everyone.



What exactly is your overall goal here? Part of the problem with judging homebrew is that everyone has different ideas of what it should be or needs to be doing. And I don't want to be pushing my way of doing things on you if that's not in line with what you think your game needs.

Fair enough. I apologize for not making that clear.

Non-combat actions take up more table time than combat actions. And during combats everyone feels like they're contributing. If a character is casting a spell in a dungeon, where everyone is supposed to be on the same page, that takes 10 minutes, at least one other player is going to want to do something in those 10 minutes of game time. I can tell them they find nothing or nothing happens, I can work on table discipline (which is no fun with friends) or I can try to work out a system that takes these spells out of rotation. As it is, these spells only get cast through magic items where casting time is replaced by item activation, not as spells. I don't have any experience with anyone ever casting Create Food & Water as a spell from spell slots.

I wouldn't have a problem with extending the duration of these spells/rituals.

When I compiled the list of spells with non-standard casting times, some of which take several hours to cast per RAW, I thought of converting them to rituals that could be interrupted and/or go wrong. And rituals could be something caster or non-caster players could do at the end of an adventure or beginning of an adventure if so inclined.

And by making it a feat choice I don't have a world where every stretch of land is either Hallowed Ground or Unhallowed Ground because at some point in the past 9th level Clerics existed and they get that spell automatically, or Awakened forests because some time in the past 9th level Druids existed and they get that spell automatically.



First of all; Shameless Plug as you and I seem to have similar tastes.


Very cool. Not sure how I'd fit this in a game, maybe if we ever do any domain management stuff. I like the implied campaign setting with this stuff.

Sarethus
2016-10-12, 11:04 AM
hmm,

I am sort of winging a similar ritual system based on UA but my mechanics are not nearly as fleshed out as yours. They are mostly if a spell takes days long time whether in preparation (like Planar Ally) or casting (Permanency) then they can likely be done by a ritual.

One thing I would like to ask you though is how commonly do you want to see such rituals in your setting and whom can cast them?

For instance the fact that Create Food and Water takes so long might actually be a feature and is what prevents every merchant caravan from having a person who can cast the ritual on hand especially if non-spellcasters can use rituals ( and also preventing the total collapse of the farming market. On the other hand the Elves might just give humans such a ritual to prevent us from cutting down their forests for farm land...)

My other personal limitation of rituals are that they have to be specific. Planar Ally for example would summon a specific outsider every time. Permanency would be for a specific spell, Teleport for a specific location etc.

BlackLamb
2016-10-22, 05:05 PM
I've re-jiggered this around based on some suggestions. Thanks for all your input

Here's the new list. I've taken Spellcraft off as a ritual skill and replaced it with Heal. I've also removed spells that were third level or below from the list. These spells may still be available as potions or special abilities of certain classes, but are otherwise removed from the game.

Rituals take 8 hours to cast and if they have a duration other than instantaneous or permanent, duration changes to one day per character level.



Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering)

Leomund's Secret Chest (Sor/Wiz 5) DC 25
Minor Creation (Sor/Wiz 4) DC 25
Stone Tell (Drd 6) DC 30
Leomund's Secure Shelter (Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 4) DC 35
Major Creation (Sor/Wiz 5) DC 40
Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum (Sor/Wiz 5) DC 45
Screen (Trickery 7, Sor/Wiz 8) DC 50
Fabricate (Sor/Wiz 5) DC 30 + 1 per 10 cu ft created
Ironwood (Drd 6) DC 35 + 1 per lb created
Move Earth (Drd 6, Sor/Wiz 6) DC 40 + 1 per 150 ft x 150 ft sq


Knowledge (History)

Break Enchantment (Brd 4, Clr 5, Luck 5, Pal 4, Sor/Wiz 5) DC 25
Binding (Sor/Wiz 8) DC 25
Forbiddance (Clr 6) DC 30
Arcane Eye (Sor/Wiz 4) DC 30
Legend Lore (Brd 4, Knowledge 7, Sor/Wiz 6) DC 35
Planar Binding (Sor/Wiz 6) DC 35
Contact Other Plane (Sor/Wiz 5) DC 40
Astral Projection (Clr 9, Travel 9, Sor/Wiz 9) DC 40
Planar Binding, Greater (Sor/Wiz 8) DC 45
Discern Location (Clr 8, Knowledge 8, Sor/Wiz 8) DC 45


Knowledge (Nature)

Find the Path (Brd 6, Clr 6, Knowledge 6, Travel 6, Drd 6) DC 25
Prying Eyes (Sor/Wiz 5) DC 25
Prying Eyes, Greater (Sor/Wiz 8) DC 30
Reincarnate (Drd 4) DC 30
Sympathetic Vibration (Brd 6) DC 35
Liveoak (Drd 6) DC 35
Commune with Nature (Animal 5, Drd 5, Pal 4) DC 40
Spellstaff (Drd 6) DC 40
Awaken (Drd 5) DC 45
Elemental Swarm (Air 9, Earth 9, Fire 9, Water 9, Drd 9) DC 45


Knowledge (Regional)

Geas / Quest (Brd 6, Clr 6, Sor/Wiz 6) DC 25
Antipathy (Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 8) DC 30
Sympathy (Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 8) DC 30
Divination (Clr 4, Knowledge 4) DC 35
Hallucinatory Terrain (Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 4) DC 35
Control Weather (Clr 7, Air 7, Drd 7, Sor/Wiz 7) DC 40
Sending (Clr 4, Sor/Wiz 5) DC 40
Heroes' Feast (Brd 6, Clr 6) DC 45
Demand (Sor/Wiz 8) DC 45
Mark of Justice (Clr 5, Pal 4) DC 50


Knowledge (Religion)

Dream (Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 5) DC 25
Atonement (Clr 5, Drd 5) DC 25
Nightmare (Brd 5, Sor/Wiz 5) DC 30
Imbue with Spell Ability (Clr 4, Magic 4) DC 30
Planar Ally (Clr 6) DC 35
Commune (Clr 5) DC 35
Planar Ally, Greater (Clr 8) DC 40
Teleportation Circle (Sor/Wiz 9) DC 40
Hallow (Clr 5, Drd 5) DC 45
Unhallow (Clr 5, Drd 5) DC 45


Heal

Restoration (Clr 4, Pal 4) DC 25
Raise Dead (Clr 5) DC 25
Create Undead (Clr 6, Death 6, Evil 6, Sor/Wiz 6) DC 30
Regenerate (Clr 7, Healing 7, Drd 9) DC 30
Create Greater Undead (Clr 8, Death 8, Sor/Wiz 8) DC 35
Clone (Sor/Wiz 8) DC 35
Restoration, Greater (Clr 7) DC 40
Resurrection (Clr 7) DC 40
Simulacrum (Sor/Wiz 7) DC 45
True Resurrection (Clr 9) DC 45


Rune-Casting Rules

Runes are similar to Rituals except that they take one hour to etch and empower and a character may only have one rune empowered per character level at any one time.



Scribe

Symbol of Fear (Clr 6, Sor/Wiz 6) DC 25
Symbol of Pain (Clr 5, Sor/Wiz 5) DC 25
Symbol of Persuasion (Clr 6, Sor/Wiz 6) DC 30
Symbol of Sleep (Clr 5, Sor/Wiz 5) DC 30
Glyph of Warding, Greater (Clr 6) DC 35
Symbol of Stunning (Clr 7, Sor/Wiz 7) DC 35
Symbol of Weakness (Clr 7, Sor/Wiz 7) DC 40
Symbol of Insanity (Clr 8, Sor/Wiz 8) DC 40
Symbol of Death (Clr 8, Sor/Wiz 8) DC 45
Guards and Wards (Sor/Wiz 6) DC 45


As always critique is welcome. Thanks for assistance.