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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Rogue Archetype: Soulknife [PEACH]



Ugganaut
2016-10-02, 03:55 AM
I've been editing on the Homebrewery site, so its now here (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/ryecpQ10).
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Design Notes: Using the slow spell progression of Arcane Trickster, with a more damage focus rather than utility. Tricksters get cantrips, so the option of Greenflame Blade is there to boost their damage. Soulknife would get a PP limited Lethal Strike.

Lvl 3 - [Arcane Trickster] 3Cantrips, Spellcasting(2x1st, 3 known, slow progression, limited spell choices), Mage Hand Legerdemain(CA)
* Compared Sorcerer progression to Mystic Progression to work out the conversion: [Spell Slot] 1[2PP], 2[3PP], 3[5PP], 4[6PP]
then applied to Arcane Trickster's slowed progression to work out the Soulknife's psi points each level. Limited the choice and number of disciplines. Iron Durability would encroach on Uncanny Dodge. Psionic Restoration doesn't fit the Soulknife(its not a healer). Same with the others, they don't fit very well. Conquering Mind is more a roguish feel than Mind Vault. Lvl 20 they can choose any.
* delayed Psychic Focus till 6th level, to bring in line with other class abilities to overcome resistance to normal weapons. The old Soulknife had Psychic Strike which added damage, so this also encourages taking Psionic Weapon early, for damage and Focus.
* Mind Blade takes the place of Mage Hand Legerdemain. It creates non-magical melee weapon. Adds no power, just utility of not having to have a weapon(like a monk). As a rogue, these will most likely be dagger, short sword, rapier - any finese weapon. So it can be thrown as a dagger, but a bonus action has to be use to create another. The ability to create two just mimics a rogue who wants to fight with two weapons but only use mind blades. Again, adds no power, just flexibility to fit a characters fighting style.
* Unlike Trickster that promotes utility, Soulknife was more damage oriented with Psychic Strike, and scaling Mind Blade damage like a monk. Lethal Strike fills the role of scaling damage, so Mind Blade is more mundane and static.

Lvl 9 - [Arcane Trickster] If hidden, target has disadvantage on saves vs your spells.
* Boosts the Tricksters new spells using the rogues stealth. It can be used any time you are hidden(Invisbility/Stealth), and from ranged.
* The Soulknife can close gaps to use his mind blade, so can't stay at ranged as a Trickster and try to hide again. Limited to living creatures, but can be used on an ally to escape though, so has more utility. 1 or 2 uses per short rest?

Lvl 13 - [Arcane Trickster] Use MHL cunning bonus action to gain advantage(end of turn) on a target within 5ft of MH.
* Trickster adds to Cunning Action to give advantage(for SA damage, using the lvl 3 feature(Mage Hand Legerdemain). It doesn't boost sneak attacks damage outright, but uses a bonus action to make sure he can use it, and increases chance of hitting. Can be used at range.
* Soulknife, instead of advantage grant a reaction attack on being missed, but as it can boost damage, have it cost 1 or 2 PP.

Lvl 17 - [Arcane Trickster] Spell Thief - reaction on spell cast, reach into a casters mind and steal their spell. 1/Long
* Limited to enemy casting spells, but not the type of spell. At this level, there's a high chance of high level magic. Also using this on a priest casting Cure Wounds can be particularly vicious, as they can't cast that spell for 8hrs, so even low level spells pay a high price.
* Soulknife is limited to creatures affected by exhaustion instead of casters, and can't gain another classes abilities, only replenish their own. It is broader, so the return potential should be lower. A successful save can avoid it, as Trickster, and it is more effective against creatures with psi points, which would be rare depending on the campaign, so can't make the increase too high. 3 psi points is equivalent of a 2nd lvl spell, 6 psi points equals a 4th level spell. So the maximum gain and scope is lower, but the opportunity to use it is higher - you could use this on a rat technically, to regain 3 psi points, but the Exhaustion would be wasted. A lvl 17 feature that lets you gain 3 psi points 1/day is far from overpowered, especially if there's the saving throw chance of avoiding the drain. Exhaustion requires rest, so mimics the 8hr spell ban of Spell Thief, although Exhaustion can be removed. Creatures like Banshee's and Golems would be immune, which makes sense. There is the rare chance that Exhaustion could kill someone already heavily exhausted, but can't see that being an issue regarding balance - Spell Thief could net you Power Word: Kill, so that rare possibility exists.

Ugganaut
2016-10-02, 03:58 AM
Couldn't figure out how to format that table, so apologies. Its a first draft, needs work. I used Arcane Trickster to help with balancing.
Personally I think Lethal Strike needs to be fixed, but thats not the goal of this.
Posting this as part of a discussion in DracoKnights thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502183-Monastic-Tradition-Way-of-the-Soulknife-2nd-Draft-PEACH&p=21262279&posted=1#post21262279), but would love some feedback if people have the time.

DracoKnight
2016-10-02, 07:23 AM
I like this, and it feels fairly solid. I'm away from my computer, but when I get to it I'll look at the UA Mystic to see how powerful those disciplines are on a Rogue. :smallsmile:

Ugganaut
2016-10-02, 08:17 AM
I like this, and it feels fairly solid. I'm away from my computer, but when I get to it I'll look at the UA Mystic to see how powerful those disciplines are on a Rogue. :smallsmile:

Thanks, that would be a great help :)
A one level dip by a rogue can net similar results(2 disciplines, Focus, 4PP, limit 2), so I don't think it will be an issue. The things I thought might be an issue were the Focus abilities, especially from Celerity and Third Eye, which is why I delayed them till 6th - also so it doesn't outshine the Mystic. Thats also when Psionic Weapon's focus makes a held weapon magical, which is in line with other classes like monk.

My areas of concern are:
1. Too many disciplines? Maybe limit it to 2-4 over 20 levels.
2. Soul Step, is once per short rest enough? For a rogue, its incredibly useful, so once might be enough. Also the living creature requisite. Makes it feel like life energy instead of mental energy, and not sure if that was ok for the overall theme, or should I stick with the Exhaustion restriction the same as Psychic Drain. I had originally put "living creature" in Psychic Drain, but thought if undead can use psionics, then its not living energy its targeting.
3. Quick Blade, 1 or 2 psi points? Pretty sure the way sneak attack is worded, it would work on reactions(as well as on your turn), so its very strong. Now that I think about it, maybe have it use Psychic Focus instead of cost PP, that way its once per short rest, and costs you the benefits of focus.
4. Psychic Drain, should it require a saving throw? Or maybe only if you have psi points does it get a saving throw?

Still needs work, looking forward to your feedback :)

DracoKnight
2016-10-02, 10:11 AM
Okay, so looking over the disciplines, both Psionic Weapon and Celerity are fine, I feel like Occluded Mind is too powerful on a Rogue (auto-crits with advantage on a round other than a surprise round because paralysis) and then I would want to see Body of Wind in playtest.

EDIT: other than that, it look pretty solid :smallsmile:

Ugganaut
2016-10-02, 11:00 AM
Okay, so looking over the disciplines, both Psionic Weapon and Celerity are fine, I feel like Occluded Mind is too powerful on a Rogue (auto-crits with advantage on a round other than a surprise round because paralysis) and then I would want to see Body of Wind in playtest.

I agree completely with Occluded Mind, but that seems to be an issue with the power. I'm hoping they make some fixes before official release, and thats one of them. I don't like Lethal Strike as it is either. Mystic 5/Fighter 5 dual wielding, can use Action Surge and potentially dumped his psi point pool(25 of 27) in a single round, for weapon damage(s) plus 25d10...he can even spare a couple points in Celerity to make damn sure he goes first. Thats ridiculous.
I think Conquering Mind does feel roguish, although unsure if its Soulknife-ish :) I'm also hoping when they release it, they'll bring out other disciplines like Telekinetics, that might be more appropriate for this archetype. Might just remove this from the list.
I can see Body of Wind potentially causing problems. Bonus Action disengage, fly speed of 60ft...would be interesting to see if its a bit much. That would be level 13, and its not like they couldn't get that fly from somewhere else by that level.

Do you think the amount of disciplines needs to be reigned in?
Tricksters have a very limited selection. Maybe Psionic Weapon and Celerity is enough for this archetype?

Thanks for the feedback :)

EDIT: Changed the Disciplines entry and removed the disciplines known from the table. With a low psi limit, and psychic focus being delayed till level 6, I think its fine to get both Psionic Weapon and Celerity at 3rd. Then add Body of Wind at 13th. Figured a greater discipline is gained at lvl 5 for a Mystic, equivalent of 3rd level spells, which Trickster gets at 13th. Also made Quick Blade expend Psychic Focus instead of using psi points, I think that works.

Ugganaut
2016-10-03, 12:01 AM
Tried putting it into that homebrewery site here (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/ryecpQ10). Hopefully it works :)

DracoKnight
2016-10-03, 12:23 AM
Tried putting it into that homebrewery site here (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/ryecpQ10). Hopefully it works :)

Looks nice! Formatting note, before your Soulknife table, place a column break, otherwise it gets split across the columns like it does now. You'll probably have to bump the 17th level ability to a new \page :smallsmile:

Ugganaut
2016-10-03, 01:01 AM
Looks nice! Formatting note, before your Soulknife table, place a column break, otherwise it gets split across the columns like it does now. You'll probably have to bump the 17th level ability to a new \page :smallsmile:

It looks fine on my screen, so its hard to tell if its fixed. I added the column break, and it split the the table, so I added another and it went back to how it looks without one - on my screen anyway :)
Could it be because I'm using Firefox instead of Chrome?

DracoKnight
2016-10-03, 01:19 AM
Could it be because I'm using Firefox instead of Chrome?

Yes, it is. The program is optimized for Chrome. No worries, though. So long as it makes sense to you, and I can read it, it doesn't matter. I'll try opening it in Firefox. :smallsmile:

Ugganaut
2016-10-03, 02:36 AM
Ah ok, I'll keep that in mind. I don't have Chrome, but I can edit on another machine if I'm going to print :)

Ugganaut
2016-10-03, 05:30 AM
I would want to see Body of Wind in playtest.

Was it the fly that you had concerns about?

I just went through Arcane Trickster, and they can get the Fly spell(which is basically identical) at lvl 14.
The focus and wind step are cool, but I can't see it being abused too much Misty Form they wouldn't be able to use due to the psi limit.

I made some minor adjustments, the biggest one was adding Third Eye at 10th level, and delaying Body of Wind till 16. I'm not sure about Third Eye, feels like it enhances the Blindsense rogues get at 14th, but at lvl 10. At the least its a place holder until the official version comes out with more options. I think a telekinetic discipline would be more Soulknife style. Considered Mind Vault, but that Focus ability has room for abuse maybe?

The reason for adding another discipline, was I saw the Known Spells of the Trickster, and the Soulknife needed another discipline to balance it a bit more.

Thanks for your help DracoKnight, I'm liking the way its shaping up :)

EDIT: Switched Third Eye and Body of Wind, so the blind sight and true sight come after Blindsense. Fly is now available at 13th, as opposed to the Tricksters 14th, so not major.

DracoKnight
2016-10-03, 08:59 AM
Was it the fly that you had concerns about?

I just went through Arcane Trickster, and they can get the Fly spell(which is basically identical) at lvl 14.
The focus and wind step are cool, but I can't see it being abused too much Misty Form they wouldn't be able to use due to the psi limit.

I made some minor adjustments, the biggest one was adding Third Eye at 10th level, and delaying Body of Wind till 16. I'm not sure about Third Eye, feels like it enhances the Blindsense rogues get at 14th, but at lvl 10. At the least its a place holder until the official version comes out with more options. I think a telekinetic discipline would be more Soulknife style. Considered Mind Vault, but that Focus ability has room for abuse maybe?

The reason for adding another discipline, was I saw the Known Spells of the Trickster, and the Soulknife needed another discipline to balance it a bit more.

Thanks for your help DracoKnight, I'm liking the way its shaping up :)

EDIT: Switched Third Eye and Body of Wind, so the blind sight and true sight come after Blindsense. Fly is now available at 13th, as opposed to the Tricksters 14th, so not major.

The fly isn't a concern to me. But I'd keep my eye on the Rogue having resistance to B/P/S damage..,it makes them really good at DPR and Tanking.

Ugganaut
2016-10-03, 10:50 AM
The fly isn't a concern to me. But I'd keep my eye on the Rogue having resistance to B/P/S damage..,it makes them really good at DPR and Tanking.

They won't be able to, Misty Form costs 7 psi points, and at level 20 the psi limit is 6.
I did up a table to figure out their equivalent "Known Spells", and its 4 until 9th, then 6 until 13th when it jumps to 11(all the 5PP get unlocked). But it caps at 11. So its pretty even with Trickster till 13 when it peaks earlier, but Trickster ends up with more spells(13).

DracoKnight
2016-10-03, 11:33 AM
They won't be able to, Misty Form costs 7 psi points, and at level 20 the psi limit is 6.
I did up a table to figure out their equivalent "Known Spells", and its 4 until 9th, then 6 until 13th when it jumps to 11(all the 5PP get unlocked). But it caps at 11. So its pretty even with Trickster till 13 when it peaks earlier, but Trickster ends up with more spells(13).

Okay, I missed the part where they could only spend 6 psi points at once. It should be okay then.

Ugganaut
2016-10-03, 05:36 PM
Okay, I missed the part where they could only spend 6 psi points at once. It should be okay then.

Thanks for your help DracoKnight, I think its ready for play testing :)