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Firefingers
2007-07-10, 09:03 AM
Ok Im planning a ECL 20 char to be a Battle Sorcerer 16 atm however I have heard there are good alternate options

Stats (unequiped hence the +4 LA)

Str = 22 (+6)
Dex = 18 (+ 4)
Con = 18 (+4)
Int = 16 (+3)
Wis = 14 (+2)
Cha = 24 (+7)

Semi front line fighter/buffer (heroism, bulls strength etc) hence the Battle Sorc levels for the d8 HD note I get a free martial weapon choice and light armor with no penalty to spells.

I need some good prestige classes to replace some battle sorc levels if they would work well, Need good spell progression and decent HD size

also some equipment choices are also an idea (plus I heard you could trade your familar for something? which is tempting as no familar could really stay on the frontline with my type of character)

the campaign is set in a dungeon in which the party is pretty much up against anything you can think of (first few battles included the terrasque with no equipment on any of the party) I am joining a bit late rest of the party is low HD shapeshifters, (phasm, druid, wererat mage who is almost always invisible) hence the decent HD sorc for front line battle

Basically any book is allowed if we can quote the source so the DM can look it up and compare to the notes we have on it.

brian c
2007-07-10, 09:07 AM
The best thing to replace your familiar is the Metamagic Specialist variant from Unearthed Arcana. Lets you do metamagic on the fly without increasing casting time. It's a must for sorcerers really.

skywalker
2007-07-10, 10:33 AM
The meta-magic specialist is in PHB 2, actually.

brian c
2007-07-10, 11:14 AM
Whoops, I always get those mixed up. So yeah, definitely take that though (assuming you're allowed PHB 2)

Jasdoif
2007-07-10, 12:29 PM
What race are you, that's giving you +4 LA?

Arbitrarity
2007-07-10, 12:38 PM
LA is bad.

But whatever. Seems like you want a gish, so maybe try some Jade Phoenix Mage (from ToB), or some abjurant champion.

Person_Man
2007-07-10, 12:45 PM
Abjurant Champion from Complete Mage is full BAB and spell progression.

Halfling Whistler (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20061121a) is 7/10 BAB, d6 hit points, 2 good Saves, 6+ Skill points per level, and full caster progression. Master Harper (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frx/20030604a) is similar, though clearly game world specific.

incantatrix (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010803) is just your standard high level broken arcane caster, though it lacks the gish component you're clearly going for. War Weaver from Heroes of Battle is similar - uber powerful, but not necessarily a gish.

I would also add that a full caster build should almost never, ever, lose caster levels. This is especially true regarding LA races. Nothing is more powerful then higher level spells in D&D. Nothing. So if taking LA or levels of a class means you have to forgo higher level spells, don't do it.

Piccamo
2007-07-10, 12:56 PM
I think Abjurant Champion is probably your best bet. If you're an elf you gain proficiency with a martial weapon and thus meet the prereqs pretty easily. You won't even need Battle Sorcerer. I'd also recommend enough levels of Sorcerer to take the variant from CChamp.

Firefingers
2007-07-11, 10:13 PM
Using the half celestial template on a human, didnt have much choice all players must have a level adjustment in this campaign or racial HD so decided to get as much as possible for it. This was about the cheapest I could get and still have a functional caster

I like the battle sorc mainly for the d8 HD and 3/4 BAB with buffs I could certainly make up those extra 4 points of BAB (Abjurant champion is almost a certainty)

For Items we are following standard WBL rules (750,000 gold)

Atm my items are

Ring of wizardry IV (optional)

Belt of wonder (I think thats its name its a belt that give +6 to all stats one of the other players has one so im getting one as well) Added to my stats shown above would make my weakest stat bonus +5 and casting stat a +10

Cloak of resistance (+5) for improved saves making my char have (+20 will +17 fort +17 dex saves)

Probably going a longsword unless someone knows a better 1 handed weapon(please note im not paying any feats for this battle sorc gets one free 1 handed martial proficiency so I may as well take advantage of it and use the best one I can get) I will have 1 hand free for casting so shouldnt impeed me in any way

I get full casting in light armor so I need a light armor with permanent haste type effect and good max dex bonus if possible (cost?)

left over slots

Amulet, Ring, Boots, Belt, Gloves, Head hmm thats all I can thing of atm

any other useful things also if possible I need a bag of holding and the gear to make a greater stone golem (DM has said I can make one if I have the stuff and the skills and a 42 HD wall is too tough to give up) means I need whatever it takes to pull off the crafting DC's

Also I have animate dead and will be using it on high HD monsters we kill to give me some frontline support (its a level 4 spell slot but quite worth it)

(64 HD of undead + me + golem is one hell of a frontline force) Like mentioned before none of the other party runs a frontline character so I do need a good gish build and I think this one will beat a pure fighter on power and versitility

Havent Assigned any feats atm so I think I get 7 (+1 human 1 for level 1 and 5 for the next 15 levels) one will be quicken for the spontaneous metamagics (2 spells per round will definately make a mess especially with this guys int mod also will mean I can buff at the start of battle rather than beforehand and hoping it doesnt wear out)

So yeah any item help is definately appreciated, its a gish build so mostly fighting/buffing but with celestial natural flying and AMF might grapple other casters occasionally, or if things are worrying in melee fly off and snipe with 2 spells per round to weaken/kill the foe

Also GM and me couldnt decide on this do the celestial powers and SR count on total HD or just the racial ones? If on total I get a few other things for fun (SR 26, DR 10/magic, some special abilities mostly 1/day)

brian c
2007-07-11, 11:16 PM
Belt of wonder (I think thats its name its a belt that give +6 to all stats one of the other players has one so im getting one as well) Added to my stats shown above would make my weakest stat bonus +5 and casting stat a +10

Sheesh, that's overpowered. How much is that costing you? I've never heard of that, btw. All I can think of is the Belt of Mighty Prowess that gives +6 str and con.

Firefingers
2007-07-11, 11:27 PM
Personally dont know where it comes from but our DM was apparently shown a reference for it and is ok with us using it (one of the reasons for the number of free slots) not sure on the cost have to check with the other player although one would think its probably rediculously undercosted so probably about 5-10% more than 6 +6 items (so about 250k)


also next step up from those bracers you mentioned is this from the ELH (way too expensive for us as its epic which the item above apparently wasnt)

Bracers of Relentless Might
These bracers grant a +12 enhancement bonus to the wearerís Strength and Constitution. The wearer is treated as two size categories larger than normal (to a maximum of Colossal) for purposes of combat-related opposed checks that apply a modifier based on size, such as bull rush, grapple, and trip.

Caster Level: 20th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Epic Wondrous Item, bullís strength, bearís endurance, enlarge; Market Price: 4,384,000 gp; Weight: 1 lb.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-12, 01:21 AM
The Belt of Wonder is from Miniature's Handbook and is priced at 200,000 GP If I recall correctly.

Firefingers
2007-07-12, 01:32 AM
Ah so it does exist lol was beginning to think the other player may have pulled a fast one on our DM.

The issue though with having +6 stats all on that belt is I have so many free slots (no bracers of DX, Amulet of Wis, Headband of INT, Cloak of CHA) so what I need would probably be some items to fill those spare slots and a good reliable suit of light armor (for no spell failure percentage)

I could use gloves of storing for quickly hiding my weapon in battle plus makes it less obvious im a threat to the monsters, with 1 hand free I can cast somatic spells fine?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-07-12, 01:38 AM
Mithral Feycraft Twilight armor is the way to go. (with some under armor padding for further reduction, depending on what kind of armor you settle for (Chain Shirt or Breast Plate).

One hand will allow you to cast just fine.

Tibor
2007-07-12, 01:45 AM
I love gish builds, seriously think about the Abjurant Champion Prc, if it's not allowed in your game (some DM's say Nay Nay to it) try out the Swift Blade Prc that was just posted on the wizards site as a bonus Prc. You can find it here http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.wizards.com/default.asp%3Fx%3Ddnd/prc/20070327

Also if you aren't set on the Celestial Template, half-dragon works well for the front line types and is only a +3 LA, or if it's allowed (it may be a bit of a stretch on the racial HD thing) but you can try the Human Paragon and see if your DM will allow it.

Edit: Also if you use the Abjurant champion Prc and book of exalted deeds is allowed in your campaign you don't need to worry about armor, just cast luminous armor/ greater luminous armor and get your abjurant champion level added to your armor bonus with no ASF, auto quickened and auto extended.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-12, 02:03 AM
+4 LA screws you far worse than any stats you could possibly get out of it. Instead of being able to cast 8th or 9th level spells, you're only casting like 6th or 7th level spells. This hurts WAY too much to bother with.

Battle Sorcerer is also totally screwed. There's better ways to get BAB and proficencies without royally buggering your spells known list.

You want a 'gish' melee caster build?

Fighter1/Sorc6/EK8/AbChamp5... ECL 20.

He can cast 9th level spells with a BAB of +17.

Tibor
2007-07-12, 02:23 AM
They need to take an LA or a racial hit die as part of the campaign. It's not optional. But if you take a +3 rather then a +4 you still get level 9 spells if you take full caster progression.

If paragon classes count with your DM you can walk away with CL 19 actually with three levels of Human Paragon.

Firefingers
2007-07-12, 02:35 AM
ok atm I have level 8 spells 1 known per day however as a sorcerer I wont get level 9 spells unless I have a LA of +2 or less also battle sorc cost me 1 spell of every level (except level 8) with a LA of +3 I gain nearly no extra spells as I lose the new level 8 one gained and it only shores up the lower levels a little. However that being said im fairly good at working with a quite small spell list, and havent found any issues with not having enough spells in most of my planning of this character

Losses of Half dragon (some ability scores, flight, some resistances)
Gains (some 7 and below spells, immunity to 1 element)

So I will check that one out and possibly try and run paragon past the DM but one of the other guys tried to make a kobold paragon that outran gods so I dont think she likes the idea of one

Tibor
2007-07-12, 02:43 AM
*smacks forhead* That's right, sorcerer...not wizard. Sorry about that. Wiz would still get the 9th level spell. Your human paragon wouldn't be outrunning any gods, just gets two more caster levels and a bonus feat, and I think one skill is always a class skill. You still lose a caster level, but it's worth it considering the alternative +4 LA.

Also for your rings, if you're losing that many caster levels you may wish to consider the Ring of Enduring Arcana from Complete Mage, it gives a really good bonus to your CL for the purpose of resisting dispelling effects, and Ring of Arcane Might (Magic Item Compendium) gives a straight up bonus to CL in general like a Orange Ion stone.

marjan
2007-07-12, 04:04 AM
For race you might want to consider human with draconic template (from Races of Dragon). +1 LA, +2 STR (if you plan on meleeing this is good), +2 CON (higher con is allways good) and +2 CHA (if you are sorceror this is great), +1 Natural Armor, crapy claw attacks and bonus on saves against paralisys and sleep.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-07-12, 07:37 PM
With 32 point and 200,000 experience points for some LA buy down or magical item crafting you end up right around some nice overall base stats at 12, 14, 14, 14, 14, 16.

Throw in a template or two and you can get some really nice stats.

Take Stalwart Battle Sorcerer and now you get D8 with +2 HP a level. The Abjurant Champion PRC is pretty nice for 5 levels. ACM isn't a bad idea. The 6 level Shadowlord PRC from Unapproachable East could be interesting if you allowed it to increase CL like the variant rule for the Merchant Prince does for wizards since it provides Shadow Discorporation when killed with a good chance of rejuvenating the next day along with Death Attack although you probably don't want to kill the PCs. It requires the +1 LA Shadow Walker Template which would be easily bought down Unapproachable East.

The +0 Soul Locked template from Heroes of Horror will give you a hard to kill off permanently PC.

The Vow of Poverty could be nice for a Soul Locked PC since it will bump up his stats up quite a bit and grant some feats.

A Lich is a +4 LA which grants D12 if you had a regular Stalwart Sorcerer Variant with LA and a Vow of Poverty after you sacrificed your wealth for enhancing magic it could be interesting with 18 character levels D12 with with +36 hit points for Stalwart Sorcerer. You couldn't own your phylactery so you would have had to have given it away probably hidden inside another treasure and cloaked to take the Vow of Poverty. There are good lich variants.

Half Celestial (+4 LA converted to +2 LA with LA Buydown gives you 18 levels to work with) Battle Sorcerer -5, MotAO -8 (Should progress with D8 for being a Battle Sorcerer) Abjurant Champion - 5 or ACM. Get some nifty bennies, spellcasting and physical enhancements from half celestial with +4 to charisma. MotAO gets the PC the Spellpool access.

Instead of Half Celestial maybe two other templates with nifty abilities:

Half Fey (+2 LA) and Half Phrenic (+2LA) would be +2 with LA buydown both enhance charisma by +4 for a +8 total. Throw in planetouched +0 for another +2 to charisma.

Mage Bred +0, Plane Touched (+0) Hengekoi (+1 LA) shapechanging animal from Oriental Adventures (Allows the Magebred Template from ECS as a shapechanging animal) with LA buy down you could give the NPC 19 levels or throw in a +2 LA template like phrenic or half fey and you could still give the NPC 18 levels.

Stalwart Battle Spellcaster -5, Stalwart Battle Sorcerer -1 Ultimate Magus - 10 (+7 to Battle Spellcaster, +10 to Battle Sorcerer) with a +2 Template paid down and you should use D8 and Good BAB since both classes have paid for it.

The UA Bloodlines use different buy down so you could basically give your PC a Major Blood line paid down in earlier levels which provide one special per level/hd and a +1 LA template with 20 character levels.

PowerWordSneeze
2007-07-12, 08:09 PM
I get full casting in light armor so I need a light armor with permanent haste type effect and good max dex bonus if possible (cost?)

Havent Assigned any feats atm so I think I get 7 (+1 human 1 for level 1 and 5 for the next 15 levels) one will be quicken for the spontaneous metamagics (2 spells per round will definately make a mess especially with this guys int mod also will mean I can buff at the start of battle rather than beforehand and hoping it doesnt wear out)

So yeah any item help is definately appreciated, its a gish build so mostly fighting/buffing but with celestial natural flying and AMF might grapple other casters occasionally, or if things are worrying in melee fly off and snipe with 2 spells per round to weaken/kill the foe

You might want to consider Battle Caster (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Battle_Caster,CAr). It lets you upgrade to medium armor -in other words: Mithral heavy armor. You could get spiked armor, since the build you suggest could be a very good grappler.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-07-12, 08:20 PM
For spellcasting versatility Two Rings (or other form) of Theurgy from Complete Arcane for 20,000 GP each. For a sorcerer they increase known spells and each holds 3 spells. Now you have 710,000 GP left to purchase other equipment if you limited yourself to a +2 LA template (Half Fey from Fiend Folio is nice although you get butterfly wings) and a Major UA Bloodline.

The Mercantile Background First Level Feat from PGtF should increase your wealth by at least 25% and 50% or more would be more realistic without experience cost because what the feat allows:

Buying a single personal or group big ticket item once a month for 75% of market cost and selling treasure for 75% of market cost.

A typical level 20 PC has 750,000 GP leveling up over time using 50% treasure resale and 100% market purchase price from adventuring but this feat would increase PC wealth significantly.

***The PC would get +50% more wealth when he sold an item than normal and once a month he could buy a big ticket item for 75% of market cost. Catching a break on both ends of most transactions.

Craft Wonderous Item is a very good feat for increasing your magical resources even further and could be worth losing a level for all that extra magical equipment it would provide.

Magic in Faerun College/Guild/School sorcerers or wizards don't need the feat to craft common magical items they can use the Research Libraray for an extra +10% in crafting costs.

With a single level dip into MotAo you get limited access to level 1 - 3 spells from the spell pool. Guild Wizard of Waterdeep (WCoS) a variant of MotAO made it clear that Adepts and Sorcerers could use the PRC.

Four levels gets you access to level 1- 6 spells from the spell pool.

Seven to Ten levels gets you level 1 - 9 spells from the spell pool.

***Both Tome of Blood and Complete Arcane say there are other guild/college variants like the Guild Wizard of Waterdeep (WCoS). I grant sorcerer or wizard spellcasters who take the 3 Level Wayfarer PRC Tome of Blood or Complete Arcane a few extra bennies. Graduated spell pool access 1-3 level spells at first, 1-6 level spells at second and 1-9 level spells at third since it is basically a arcane spellcasting guild similar to MotAO or Guild Wizard of Waterdeep (Waterdeep City of Splendors). A minor title of Baronet and either Royal Courier or Court Magist with a luxurious living standard and a modest royal or court stipend as per Complete Arcane and Court Magist positions for being on call and wayfaring. In game the PC can obtain hospitality and minor assistance from local aristocracy along with a little special treatment from local officials and aristocracy. It's a nice tool for guiding PCs towards adventures and preventing campaign wealth abuses and explaining what the PC did between adventures.

With a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer (Complete Mage and UA or D20 SRD) you would get D8 plus +2 Hit points a level which you should receive using the MotAO PRC since your spellcasting doesn't revert back to normal for taking it.

A simple 18 level build with access to level 9 spells (With Two Rings of Theurgy you could have up to 6 Level 9 or lower spells in addition to your regular known spells) would be Battle Sorcerer - 6, MotAO -7, Abjurant Champion or ACM -5 with a +4 LA template paid down to +2 LA. Additionally you could cast up to (Call 9 Total Arcane Spell levels in any combination of spell level power first to ninth that Total 9 Spell levels in a day which is really sweet with Rings of Theurgy and reacting to situations.

Taking the First Level Magic in the Blood Feat (Player's Guide to Faerun) would increase your single daily spell like ability casting to 3 each a day.

13 D8, 5 D10 + 36 hit points for Stalwart Sorcerer and +14 BAB.

You could have 20 casting levels with a +2 template like phrenic paid down and a +0 plane touched template along with a paid down UA major blood line which should give your PC +6 or +7 to Charisma and a +16 BAB depending on the other two levels taken with a lesser template.

Since everthing is open. The Spell Fire Wielder Feat from Magic of Faerun is pretty good but requires DM approval.

Complete Mage had some interesting feats like Fey and Fiendish Presence and Legacy with daily spell like abilities which would be nice with Magic in the Blood (PGtF)

CthulhuM
2007-07-12, 10:22 PM
If you really want to play up the fighter/buffer aspect of the character, I highly recommend the War Weaver PRC from Heroes of Battle (assuming someone has the book). It's a 5 level class with 4/5ths casting that, by the time you're done with it, gives you the ability to prepare up to 5 buffs of up to 5th level (either touch or ranged) ahead of time, then cast them all on your entire party as a move action.

This may not be as flashy as spamming disintegrate, but I don't think instantly turning your your whole group into polymorphed, flying, greater invisibilitied, stoneskinned and displaced killing machines will disappoint anyone. Plus, since all these buffs will hit you too, you'll be that much better at staying alive in melee (and maybe even able to do something useful in it, once you're polymorphed). For reference, someone compiled a list of usable spells here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=622748).

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-13, 04:15 AM
If you really want to play up the fighter/buffer aspect of the character, I highly recommend the War Weaver PRC from Heroes of Battle (assuming someone has the book). It's a 5 level class with 4/5ths casting that, by the time you're done with it, gives you the ability to prepare up to 5 buffs of up to 5th level (either touch or ranged) ahead of time, then cast them all on your entire party as a move action.

This may not be as flashy as spamming disintegrate, but I don't think instantly turning your your whole group into polymorphed, flying, greater invisibilitied, stoneskinned and displaced killing machines will disappoint anyone. Plus, since all these buffs will hit you too, you'll be that much better at staying alive in melee (and maybe even able to do something useful in it, once you're polymorphed). For reference, someone compiled a list of usable spells here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=622748).

Actually, it would be better to use Greater Magic Weapon, Resist Energy, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, and Displacement. Then, since that was your move, you use your standard action to Haste your party. Stoneskin requires money on every casting, greater invis and displacement are mutually exclusive, you only need Displacement for the 50% miss chance and immunity to sneak attacks and crits. If the party is smart, GMW can be an extra +3-4 to hit and damage, with Bull's Strength being yet another 2-3 damage depending on one or two handed, and the endurance gives everyone 2 extra hit points per HD and a +2 on fort saves. And it doesn't use polycheeze.

Still, I agree with you. If you're gonna be support, WarWeaver sounds like absolute crack. I'll have to check it out next time I'm able to. It makes the sorcerer battlefield control/support build a lot more fun.

The Glyphstone
2007-07-13, 04:52 AM
I seem to remember something called Knowstones from Dragon magazine, that worked like Pearls of Power, except they added spells known to a Sorcerer's list when carried instead of extra spells per day...were those real?

marjan
2007-07-13, 04:52 AM
Buying a single personal or group big ticket item once a month for 75% of market cost and selling treasure for 75% of market cost.


Where did you find this description of Mercantile background? Because I thought the feat works that way, but when I looked into it gave bonuses for appraise, craft and profession skills I think.

As for spells I would drop Stoneskin if you have access to CM since you can get Heart of Earth from there. It's stoneskin effect lasts for 1 round/lvl but it should be enough. And combined with other Hearts of X you get havy fortification for the duration of the spells which are hour/lvl.
Also unless you are palning on crafting items you should drop Bull's Strength and Bear's Endurance since at your lvl they become pretty useless.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-07-13, 10:34 AM
The Mercantile Background feat is listed in two source books published several years apart FRCS in 2001 and PGtF in 2004.

The Mercantile Background feat on page 41 of the Player's Guide to Faerun is a special regional feat that may only be taken at 1st level.

Since it has the same name as the original feat from 2001 in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting on page 36 which granted a PC +2 to Appraise and a single Craft or Profession check IMO it has replaced the origninal feat.

Your PC comes from a wealthy family with numerous contacts in the trading costers and craft guilds of Faerun's bustling cities. You can get a good deal on almot anything you buy or sell.

Benefit when you sell weapons, magic items, or other adventuring goods you get 75% of the list price instead of 50%. You can buy any single item at 75% of the offered price. You get an extra 300 GP at character creation.