Erfworld 67, page 61

[Dhavaer]

Since no-one else did it.

[Cpt. Sqweky]

I swear... this comic is like some sort of crack... or something... Every strip that comes out keeps me begging for the next one.

[TigerHunter]

I love Erfworld.
Ansom's facial expressions, Stanley's "Next turn we croak him!"... this comic was made of pure win.

[PlasticSoldier]

THis is awesome!!

[factotum]

Sheesh, the comic must have been posted while I was reading the forums--it wasn't there when I first arrived on the site!

Looks like more information nobody has let Parson know before...wonder how this will affect the outcome? And is Ansom really thinking the troops are just veiled, or does he have something more devious on his mind?

[Eldric IV]

This is exactly why I do not read webcomics for months at a time. You need to let the unread pages pile up so you do not go insane.

[Tyrael]

I LOVE Ansom's expression in Panel 1. It's the most awesome "wtf" look I've ever seen on a comic character. And I wholeheartedly echo Parson:

"Waitwaitwait. We can VEIL our troops!?"

In the words of Parson: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0053.html)

"Oh that's gonna add a whole new dimension to this plan..."

[kpenguin]

I love the last line. It seems Parson hasn't caught up on all of his homework yet :smallamused:.

So... is this a late Saturday comic or an on-time Tuesday comic?

[mockingbyrd7]

I love the last line. It seems Parson hasn't caught up on all of his homework yet :smallamused:.

So... is this a late Saturday comic or an on-time Tuesday comic?

Glass half empty or glass half full?

Geez, I'm talking to a freaking penguin again. I just can't get over that you're a PENGUIN.

[Tyrael]

Hang on. I just realized something, I'm curious. Today, Parson said, "[He moved] into the center hex? Why would he do that?" But just last page, he said, "I was kinda hoping he'd just go charging into the center hex."

Make up your mind, Parson!

[Midnight Lurker]

Wow.
The Gobwin Knob victory has just become trivial. Stanley would have to go far out of his way to boop up his own side's chances at this point.

[The_Alec]

Interesting.

Is Ansom trying to dig his way out of a hole by refusing to believe that Stanly could outsmart him? Or has he thought up some way of fooling Stanly into thinking he is losing?

Either way it seems a cruel joke for Parson to find out at that all his meticulous planning was for nothing. If they can simply cloak their units then there was no point in Parson coming up with the dwagon fort in the first place.

[Clamps]

Hang on. I just realized something, I'm curious. Today, Parson said, "[He moved] into the center hex? Why would he do that?" But just last page, he said, "I was kinda hoping he'd just go charging into the center hex."

Make up your mind, Parson!

He was hoping Ansom wouldn't scout, and would charge in blind. That Ansom would scout, then charge in knowing it was empty, was weird.

[Ink]

Great stuff. Ansom just refuses to see, doesn't he. Presumptuous little fellow.

Stanley seems to have some neat resources on his side. It'll be good to see what new dimension veiling brings to the battle.

[gatitcz]

I'm at a loss. If Ansom's not just underestimating Stanley, the only thing I can think of him doing is to try to push through the six dwagon stack back to the column (it's certainly closer that way (http://www.partiallyclips.com/erfworld/blowups/BLOWUP_ansommap_1200.jpg)). Either that or use Jillian somehow, but I don't know how much good she can do.

ETA: If he's close enough, can he move the rest of the column into support?

[ChowGuy]

Hang on. I just realized something, I'm curious. Today, Parson said, "[He moved] into the center hex? Why would he do that?" But just last page, he said, "I was kinda hoping he'd just go charging into the center hex."

Make up your mind, Parson!

He was kinda hoping Ansom would charge into the center hex, but he sent a bat instead. Now, having found it empty, it makes no sense to do so. Doesn't mean Parson isn't still glad he did.

edit: ninja'd

[Mr. Dragon]

Hang on. I just realized something, I'm curious. Today, Parson said, "[He moved] into the center hex? Why would he do that?" But just last page, he said, "I was kinda hoping he'd just go charging into the center hex."

Make up your mind, Parson!

The first "I was kinda hoping he'd just go charging into the center hex." would be a "I was kinda hoping he'd just go charging into the center hex without scouting first." Therefore, "[He moved] into the center hex? Why would he do that?" is a "[He moved] into the center hex? Why would he do that, even if he knows, because he had a bat scouting, that there is nothing in there?"

Edit: Ninja'ed twice :smalleek:

[Zictor]

Interesting.

Is Ansom trying to dig his way out of a hole by refusing to believe that Stanly could outsmart him? Or has he thought up some way of fooling Stanly into thinking he is losing?

Either way it seems a cruel joke for Parson to find out at that all his meticulous planning was for nothing. If they can simply cloak their units then there was no point in Parson coming up with the dwagon fort in the first place.

I disagree

Ansom is now more Effd than ever. He is surrounded by dwagons, and Parson will just be able to annihilate all the siege units in the columns.

Or, he could just use all the dwagons to get to Ansom. I hope he doesn't do that, though, because this would end up the comic too soon.

[kpenguin]

Glass half empty or glass half full?

Geez, I'm talking to a freaking penguin again. I just can't get over that you're a PENGUIN.

Not just any penguin, but a penguin from Northern California. :smallwink:

So, is Ansom booped or what? How is he going to get out this one (if he can)

[Alces]

Edit: Triple ninja action, dang.

Ansom is really letting feelings of superiority influence his decisions - I love it when arrogance works that way. :smallamused:

[moscatabaco]

And that's where Veiling units come into play. Ansom believes (correctly) that Stanley is too stupid to fool him like that; so the units must be Veiled (in other words, he believes the trick was veiling the units, not luring him at the center of the claw)

Hamster would do well to refrain himself from showing ignorance in front of Stanley BTW. Wow, this is getting interesting. I wonder if they will get Ansom?

[derfy]

Ansom goes into the center hex because he knows from prior experience that Stanley can veil his troops. See the transition from panel 6 and 7 as he realizes, "Oh BOOP! They can veil their troops! CHARGE!"

Also, just registered to point this out.

Edit: Oh well, I lose by seconds.

[Aquaseafoam]

I honestly think he's trying to blow through the stack, out of all the crappy options available to him, a blowthrough would be the least crappy.

[Airshark]

Sometimes the bait is good, and even the wise step into the trap. In this case, they prey is too foolish for it to matter.

I don't know how this "veiling" works, but if it exists at all, there are possibilities for totally busted game mechanics. The dwagons could have hidden from the bats? Why didn't they? If that's the case, all of Ansom's recon would have been in vain, and he didn't have the move to assault every possible hex that could have held dwagons.

I'm thinking that croaking Ansom isn't going to be the end of the siege of Gobwin Knob. Because it sure looks like Ansom's time on the mapboard is going to be limited.

Note, though, that Parson sees a different option that he likes better than croaking Ansom. We'll see if he can talk the Tool out of it.

[galdon]

ansom makes this easier and easier for them..

[ChowGuy]

Ansom is now more Effd than ever. He is surrounded by dwagons, and Parson will just be able to annihilate all the siege units in the columns.

For openers. I'm curious as to what fiendish idea "We can veil our units?" suggests to him. I mean besides killing Stanley for his "You'd have to be a moron not to know that." take on sharing information with his Chief Warlord.

[Paul_Blue]

Oh dear, what a great Comic!

Ansom is tough though!
He is going from ultimate chock, in panel 1, to acceptance, quickly forming some kind of answer to this new situation he is facing, and fast, (on only one panel) is executing it!

He's the man with the hairy chest!

/Paul

[Menarker]

For me, I suspect that Parson not knowing he could veil the troops works out much better.

Since it is assumed that Anselm already knows that Stanley has Foolmancers, and from what I would suspect of Stanley's normal behavior, Anselm would believe that if Stanely had used the Foolmancer or lost them already, due to the fact that he would likely believe Stanley to be the sort who never hold anything in reserve except when taking critical damage and thus retreating.

The idea of Stanley not using one of his own vaunted tools in this combat (and also not protecting his "treasured dragons") is so unnatural, that it makes the center hex seems more likely to have something noteworthy in nature, IE: Dragons protected by veiling.

If the Foolmancers were used in the first place, there would be little else that could push Anselm to the point he is now, since it would seem natural for all potential resources, that the defending losing team has, would be used in its defence.

[slayerx]

I'm really wondering what exactly Parson was about to say... "we could capture..." what?... Jillian? the rest of the seige engines?

or could it be...
the other coalition leaders?... if all of the coalition leaders are in the same spot, and now they lack woodelf, gump and flying support... they could very well be vulnarable to a 50 Dwagon pile on... depending on how the rules go, If all of the leaders get captured, their forces may automatcially fall apart, leaving Ansom with only him, jetstone troops, Vinnie, the bats, Jillian and the archons... it would effectively tear his offensive assunder, drastically lowering his numbers...


But really, with that line we know now that Parson had plans outside of attacking Ansom and getting the pliers... That he had another goal or option... question is, what the hell is it

[trehek]

I love how Vinny looks in panel 2. Notice the hand. :smallbiggrin:

[ChowGuy]

I'm really wondering what exactly Parson was about to say... "we could capture..." what?... Jillian? the rest of the seige engines?

We could capture, interrogate, then uncroak them and add them to our own corps.

Stanley thinks short term goals, Parson thinks long term assets.

[mroozee]

I see this as one of three things...

1. Ansom is seriously boned. When you are looking at a hopeless situation and there is only one combination of circumstances that might lead to victory, you assume those conditions exist and act accordingly. If the dwagons are veiled, great for Ansom. If the dwagons are not veiled, he is no less boned by entering the center hex.

2. Ansom is bluffing. If Stanley can veil his troops, so can Ansom. Why would he charge into a ring of dwagons when he has no idea what might be veiled in the center of the fort? Because he wants Stanley (or whomever is helping him) to wonder if he has sufficient veiled troops with him such that he has no fear of the full complement of dwagons.

3. Ansom uses the nuclear option. This is the least likely, IMHO. If Ansom has some major form of attack that affects all of the units in adjacent hexes, moving into the center allows him to hit all of the dwagons in the fort. Sacrifing the Pliers in a blaze of glory? Calling down the fires of heaven? Of course, if he could do this, why would he bring in all of the other units?

[Scientivore]

Hahaha! Ansom's haste to resolve his cognitive dissonance led him to settle on a plausible explanation far too quickly. Now he is well and truly booped.

He's just lucky that Parson apparently wants to capture him instead of croaking him.

[Mesousa]

Hmm, I'm expecting trouble for Parson. Wouldn't surprise me if Ansom has a way of veiling his troops too, and has indeed some units somewhere close which Parson didn't account for. Seems like everything else about this latest discovery would just make things too easy for Parson, considering he's doing fine enough already.

[hamstard4ever]

LOL, I love Parson's reaction in the last panel. "I spent ALL BOOPING NIGHT working on a plan to hide the wounded dragons and now you tell me we could have just veiled them in the first place?!"

[Siric]

Nice to see things are going well for Parson and Gobwin Knob. (:

[DCR]

Did NOT see that coming.

Is Ansom trying to get back to the column, or is he hunting wounded dwagons? Either way...


Anybody see Evel Kansom escaping almost certain doom in a spectacular fashion? Not fashionable spectacularness, but oooh! and aaah! didja see that? Dwagons' mouths snapping shut right behind his burning flying carpet kinda stuff?

[kpenguin]

I love how Vinny looks in panel 2. Notice the hand. :smallbiggrin:

That's Ansom's hand. He's wearing gloves, so that's why its white.

[Neryth]

Am I the only one who feels sorry for Ansom? On another note, Parson seems to be gaining Stanley's trust. If they destroy Ansom's force, I'd count on Vinnie/Ansom being captured (Tarfu seems like a disposable character).

Remember that Ansom isn't attuned to his Arkenpliers. This would be the perfect moment for his powers to activate and help him smite some dwagons. If that happens, it'll be Parson with his back against the wall.

[fruityjanitor]

Great comic. I'm really worried about Ansom and Vinnie. I wonder what Lord Hamster is going to do now that they're both right where he wants them.

I'm also curious to see what strategies Parson comes up with now that he knows about veiling.

Keep them coming! :smallbiggrin:

[ChowGuy]

LOL, I love Parson's reaction in the last panel. "I spent ALL BOOPING NIGHT working on a plan to hide the wounded dragons and now you tell me we could have just veiled them in the first place?!"

Nah. He spent ALL BOOPING NIGHT working on a plan that didn't hide the Dwagons, the Wanda idly let slip the fact that he could - in the FoW. Veiling them would not have been an advantage if he still hadn't been able to first move them out of Ansom's sight to begin with, but it might have let him hide them closer to the column, instead of out where they are.

[Overdark]

Yes, Ansom beileved that stanley is too stupid to manuver his forces like that, so they must be cloaked, and he charges in anyway. Now his back is against the wall.

I wonder if Ansom can contact Charlie and pay (Expensive!?) to get the Thinkamancer to scan the battlefield and find the Wounded Stack. Ordering Julian and her Griffons fly directly to the stack and destroy 20 Dragons and 3 warlords. Smashing that stack is the only way I can see Ansom having a chance to prevent this entire war from turning around.

[Rocheforte]

Even if Ansom has a way to veil his troops (Stanley's ability to do so is based on his possession of a foolamancer - we don't know that Ansom has that unit type), it's irrelevant to the current tactical situation. We know that none of the troops he brought with him were veiled, and there was no reason or foreshadowing to indicate that he had a veiled reserve nearby. The whole point of the trap is that Stanley can't get any reinforcements (with the possible exceptions of Jillian, the Archons, and/or a few of Jillian's gwiffons. If there's any question of whether Jillian can reach, her orlies are right out because we already know they're slower than gwiffons. Pulling surprise reinforcements out of a hat at this point would be plain bad storytelling, and these authors are better than that.

Now, a "retributive strike" sort of thing - sacrificing the Arkenpliars for a huge area-effect explosion - wouldn't be unreasonable, and it would infuriate Stanley. Ansom's holding the pliers in the next-to-last panel in a somewhat non-weaponlike manner....

[Mustiado]

Spoiler tag galore on this one, but I can't help speculating that...

Maybe this really will be the end of the siege of Gobwin Knob. Not that Ansom is croaked, but the forces are torn apart, no siege to speak of. The push is over. The Tool "dismisses" Hamster, but that doesn't send him home. And since he's obviously working on the side of evil, would he be able to resist the chance to go over to the side of right for the much more interesting tactical situation? Or am I just hoping that Parson makes the switch somehow after decimating Ansom for a TRULY interesting battle?

I think that's just my irrational need to support the goody two-shoes, however. I love this comic.

[Doran]

Wait, If stanley's side can veil their troops, what doesn't say Ansom's side has done also...

[Scientivore]

On re-reading, this page is a treasure trove of facial expressions! Also, did you notice in the last panel how the carefully chosen perspective made Parson look chibi at the perfect moment?


I'm really wondering what exactly Parson was about to say... "we could capture..." what?... Jillian? the rest of the seige engines?

I thought it was Ansom. The Tool had just said, "Next turn we croak him! And take the Arkenpliers!" Parson doesn't strike me as the type to croak when he can capture instead.

[DCR]

Nah. He spent ALL BOOPING NIGHT working on a plan that didn't hide the Dwagons, the Wanda idly let slip the fact that he could - in the FoW. Veiling them would not have been an advantage if he still hadn't been able to first move them out of Ansom's sight to begin with, but it might have let him hide them closer to the column, instead of out where they are.

Nah, I'd say he'd still have to hide the wounded dwagons away from the column, and over water away from air units is ideal. Parson's plan and usage of dwagons for the last turn was spectacular... but with the veiling, he may have made other moves involving other units for plans that would take several turns to unfold.

But, as always, there's not enough information available. But that doesn't stop the speculation. Ever.

[atteSmythe]

Ok, the first time, you have to give him the benefit of the doubt. Ansom doesn't know to be on guard. But now he's fallen for the same trap twice...in the same turn!

[Ink]

I honestly think he's trying to blow through the stack, out of all the crappy options available to him, a blowthrough would be the least crappy.

Yes, I think that when Ansom finds the centre hex well and truly empty he will try and punch through. After all what other choice does he have? Staying there won't do any good and he doesn't have enough move to go back around. Wonder if he'll call for Jillian?

[ChowGuy]

(Stanley's ability to do so is based on his possession of a foolamancer - we don't know that Ansom has that unit type)
More likely it's another undisclosed (to Parson) ability of the "magic table." The trio of casters who run it include a Lookamancer, Thinkamancer, and Foolamancer. None of whom apparently can still be treated of as individuals, so any "Foolamancy" spells must be a subset of their function.


Now, a "retributive strike" sort of thing - sacrificing the Arkenpliars for a huge area-effect explosion - wouldn't be unreasonable, and it would infuriate Stanley. Ansom's holding the pliers in the next-to-last panel in a somewhat non-weaponlike manner....

Ah yes. The "Warlock Bomb." Unlikely though that they have that ability, or if they do that Ansom knows how to trigger it. He says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0022.html) "At best they are a good combat weapon...[But] I cannot unlock their secrets."

Edit to Add:

Wait, If stanley's side can veil their troops, what doesn't say Ansom's side has done also...
He had no reason to do so. Any units he brought for the expected battle in the center would have been revealed at that time. His staff were concerned that he didn't have enough as it was, so holding them "in reserve" would have been foolish.

[LaValle]

It seems to me that the best tactic for Ansom would be to attack one of the five dwagon stacks nearest the collumn and punch through. Dwagons are formidable, but I'm pretty sure that since three seemed to be defeated pretty easily and the plan was to attack more than a dozen wounded dwagons, five would not be all that hard. Then it's just two hexes to the collumn, and if the units in the collumn still have move, then they could group together with Ansom and prepare for the incoming attack.

[kabbor]

Hmm. Things are not looking good - I guess that is why 'Ansom made that move: He is getting somewhat desperate.
If he looses too many forest & flying forces, the column may not be able to be defended from the Dwagon wheel (or is it Party Platter of Doom?) tactic no matter where Jillian and the peeps are. We do not know whether his carpet has enough move to get him to where the column can provide him cover: With the wasting of another 2 move, it is even less likely. Getting Jillian and the Peeps (Band titile, anyone?) in to provide support may have been his only chance: Possibly a bad one, because even that may not have been enough, although it may have been enough to force Parson to choose to leave them alone: Which, of course, would mean that the rest of the siege is toast.
Which bad move should I take? I've had that choice on the chess board before now, and it is not a pleasant one.

[israfel420]

Wozzers!! Great Episode.

That being said, I think Ansom still has enough move to punch through with his forest units towards the hex closest to the column. I think he may even have enough for him and Vinnie to get back since they are both flying units.

What I think will happen is that after taking moderate to heavy casualties on the punch through, the Elf Warlord Tarfu will run out of move.

Vinnie and Ansom will offer to stay and defend them with the help of the flyers, but Tarfu will refuse and tell him to go, that he will cover their retreat.

Either that or Ansom will turn tail and run, and Tarfu will switch sides.

[Dwagon]

Excellent comic :smallcool:

I don't believe it's the end of Ansom. We've been told about the tunnels and Sizemore prepared some stuff in there. Checkovian guns as I've been taught on these boards and by wikipedia :smallwink:

So something will happen to save Ansom as he's the only one determined enough and charismatic enough to lead the coalition. That's what I believe.

What about the arkenpliers get attuned to someone in Ansom's army to save them? Vinnie maybe? If it happens, Ansom may even croak and Vinnie take his place as the leader of the coalition... I wonder, since we're in a fantasy setting, do we have a ressurection spell?

[ChowGuy]

We've been told about the tunnels and Sizemore prepared some stuff in there.<snip>
So something will happen to save Ansom as he's the only one determined enough and charismatic enough to lead the coalition. That's what I believe.

Or Ansom et al will get themselves captured, and Jillian (who is supposed to have escaped through the tunnels) will get tapped to lead a rescue mission in that way.

[Scientivore]

Also, just registered to point this out.

Welcome! :smallsmile:


[snip] Anybody see Evel Kansom escaping almost certain doom in a spectacular fashion? Not fashionable spectacularness, but oooh! and aaah! didja see that? Dwagons' mouths snapping shut right behind his burning flying carpet kinda stuff?

Ohhh yeah. Unless we just didn't get to see it when he did his "For the King!" *KA-BRAIN*, Ansom's outfit is an unfired unjumped Chekhov's gun motorcycle.


Ansom's holding the pliers in the next-to-last panel in a somewhat non-weaponlike manner....

It's gestural art. Think of it like a phallus. I would explain further but that would be creepy with the way that he's holding it in my avatar. :smallwink:


[snip] But, as always, there's not enough information available. But that doesn't stop the speculation. Ever.

What is this "stop the speculation" of which you speak? I'm frightened by your bizarre alien concepts.


More likely it's another undisclosed (to Parson) ability of the "magic table." The trio of casters who run it include a Lookamancer, Thinkamancer, and Foolamancer. None of whom apparently can still be treated of as individuals, so any "Foolamancy" spells must be a subset of their function.

Yesterday I decided to call them "the Triniteyemancer". I felt that they needed a more graceful singular name.

[Beren One-Hand]

I'm going to stick my neck out and predict that things will not go well for Parson next turn.

The more I dwell on it, the less it seems likely that Parson has achieved as momentous advantage as he believes. He is still essentially operating blind. Since there is still quite a lot he doesn't know, it is unlikely that he could concoct a plan that would take into account all ways of tackling the problem.

Meanwhile Ansom is clearly thinking outside the old paradigm, as his first reaction to the available evidence is that something is up with Stanley. Essentially, he isn't up against his old adversary. Once Ansom realized he fell for a trap he has ample time to look at the available evidence and devise a counter. Since he does know what is possible inside Erfworld, he is clearly at an advantage. If Parson unknowingly left a weakness Ansom should be able to spot it and exploit it, especially since Ansom is now looking deeper into the strategies used against him.

Also from a purely storytelling perspective, the authors are very fond of misdirection. Wanda explaining about veiled units makes everyone think about hidden units - I should say confirms thoughts about hidden units since half of the discussion about the dragon fort involved theoretical hidden units. We assume, as she is doing, that is indeed what Ansom thinks is happening. That's the bait.

Next comes the switch, when Ansom pulls an obvious maneuver that Parson couldn't see coming because he doesn't have enough information about it. This could be something we can see, but I can't hazard a guess as I'm not as savvy on strategy/tactics as many others here.

[Bakta]

Edit: Triple ninja action, dang.

Ansom is really letting feelings of superiority influence his decisions - I love it when arrogance works that way. :smallamused:

Hmmm,

I wouldn't bet family jewels on that one. Ansom took his Toolness for granted and Parson took advantage of that.

But the opposite doesn't run true : Parson is not taking Ansom for a fool. Think of it as wargaming (which it is). Ansom is a good player, he does things according to what is best and plan a bit ahead. Parson is a great player, not only he plans ahead, but plan for his opponent's counter-moves. According to this logic, Ansom's move makes no sense. You don't jump into a trap when you know it's one (as bat made sure of).

Whether or not the "veils" point of rule explains everything or there is something else afoot, it'll be fun figuring it out.

[Renx]

Don't be too sure. Now Ansom is apparently going to smash through the Dwagon circle. Parson doesn't like this.

[teratorn]

I don't think Ansom is going for a strike on the donut. As Parson said killing those three dwagons cost him. Vinny is convinced Stanley did something brilliant. Ansom know's that's not possible, he goes there to check things with his own eyes. Ansom was tricked because he knew Stanley (and the way he choses his warlords) too well. Stanley would not think on a diversion, but he could very well veil his units. This was sort of a dramatic way for the authors to provide us with an extra piece of information.

I think Ansom will now realize he isn't fighting against Stanley.

[Dwagon]

As others have said, I agree that Ansom jumped in the center hex thinking the trick was veiled units. It's been stated that going around the fort would leave them without any movement points. At the very least I believe it's true for the Gumps and Elves.

I wonder if Ansom and his motorcarpet has any move points left. If he has enough to jump through the circle of Dwagons he might make it to safety in the column. Vinnie could or could not join him.

Tarfu and the rest are gonners if this scenario plays out though, for sure.

[ChowGuy]

Yesterday I decided to call them "the Triniteyemancer". I felt that they needed a more graceful singular name.

The Erfen Mind Meld?

The Gamesters of Tri-Erfen?

[Peptuck]

Ansom's actions in this comic just made me laugh so hard.

He's impaled on a spear that he should have seen coming but is too arrogant to think would be there, and instead of pulling himself off, he just digs it in deeper.

Amazingly amusing.

I'm also imagining Parson's inevitable - and inevitably devastating - reaction to another tactical trick he had no idea he could have used, and the implications that can have for his war plan.

[Waldgeist]

I expected Ansom to scout the surrounding hexes once he noticed the central one was empty... Then he'd found the lake. BUT he didn't. Man, that guy's a really snotnosed big-head. It will be interesting to see the Tool <-> Hamster conflict on how to handle this. I hope so much Parson can convince Stanley of whatever he's planning...

[Peptuck]

Here's an interesting thought I just had that would explain Ansom's actions: he think Stanley's an idiot (rightfully so). Protecting his assets is well within what Ansom perceives as Stanley's capabilities, but tactical trickery like this is beyond him.

However, something as bluntly useless as veiling wounded units in the middle of a giant, unveiled ring of dwagons is something that, in his mindset, Stanley is certainly incompetent enough to try at.

That's why he was dead certain the wounded units were right there in the middle of the fort.

"Of course! They're veiled! Only Stanley would be stupid enough to do that! Attack!"

[Mogster]

I wonder whether Parson will now be able to veil the wounded stack before Jillian finds it... or would he have to wait until it's his turn again?

[Tokiko Mima]

Don't adjacent uncommanded units have to attack on their turn? Does that mean Ansom is deliberately making all 5 dragon-filled hexes attack him at once?

Maybe he has a special "Win one battle free" card and is looking to take out all of the surrounding dragons in a single battle? Because otherwise it seems like a very dumb manuever to force combat with 5 hexes at once.

[ChowGuy]

"Of course! They're veiled! Only Stanley would be stupid enough to do that! Attack!"

You mean like "Only Stanley would be stupid enough to think I'm stupid enough to fall for the Old Empty Fort Trick! Twice!" oooo-kay.

[Chewy]

ugh there goes any hope of trying to redeem Ansom as not being an arrogant fool. Only hope left is that he charges through the dragons and back to the column.

[WhiteNoise]

The issue comes in terms of resources and methods,

Clearly Stanley works on the principle of a caster for every problem, he has confirmed a Croakamancer, Dirtamancer and the Tripartate board team, what else does he have as magical assets?

that being a trait, Ansom presumes the use of magic where all else is confused. why his opponent has a penchant for spell slingers,

Parson on the other hand dosnt really work with the magic in that great sense as he didnt know, this is throwing off Ansom's responses, same as if Stanley was known for doughnuting defences then hiding the real force a few hex's away somewhere hard to get to Ansom would have searched for that when in this reversal situation the forces are really in the fort veiled, Stanley has become predictable but its not Stanley leading the military, note that the thought of a new warlord hasnt crossed their minds,

Parson is unlikly to suffer a reversal of fortune unless the tool blunders as the strength of parson's plan is to FORCE ansom into a reactive passive roll by taking the initative and keeping it,

Surprise column attack - stalls the march Forces the hunting party
Fort is a fake - Strands the hunting party without a prize for their efforts
Ansom now has to bring his Air support to him or its going to hell in a handcart

[Heavenfall]

Oh, the irony!

Ansom puts himself in danger because he doesn't have all the facts.

Then he puts himself in further danger because Parson doesn't have all the facts.

Yup, sounds like war alright.

[Scientivore]

Don't adjacent uncommanded units have to attack on their turn? Does that mean Ansom is deliberately making all 5 dragon-filled hexes attack him at once? [snip]

Klog #4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html) actually says, "Stacks without a leader are forced to autoattack when in contact with units from non-allied capitals." That appears to mean whenever they're in the same hex, like how each of the six dwagon wheel hexes ate one of Vinny's bats.

[BarGamer]

Maybe, maybe not. The fact that Parson is learning in baby steps what the world will let him do and what are GK's specialties, might continue to make it seem to Ansom's eyes that Stanley is just making a few shrewd moves.

But the revelation that you can use the Eyemancy setup to cast Foolamancy spells that would veil your troops is not THAT big of a snarl for the turns that have already passed. As said before, veiling something from someone who has to rely on scouts and hats anyway is slightly redundant. Rather, the real trick is what Parson is going to do with his assets now.

So far, we've seen: Mathamancy/Luckamancy, Foolamancy, superior knowledge of the battlefield, air dominance (or soon to be), the most heavily defended base on the Erf, and the ability to think outside the box. If I were in Parson's place, I'd give Ansom (or his eventual replacement) the most horrible runaround they've ever had the misfortune to experience. Make them doubt anything and everything they've relied on. Up is down, left is right, black is white, evil is good! Make them hesitate. Make them do risky maneuvers. Make them use their trump cards, that only make things worse. The string of "victories" is only the beginning. The Donut of Doom is only a foretaste. If before we've given Vinny suspicions, now give him outright paranoid nightmares. You can let them suffer, but play to WIN, Parson.

[Abbott]

I think that Ansom can't push through because he doesn't have enough move. Simple as that. I think that Ansom and Vinnie will be captured and that the battle is going downhill all the way from here for team Jetstone.

However,
Our dear toolship is on a quest to conquer the world and the battle for Godwin Knob is just part 1, yes? What's to say they won't have need of Parson there, especially as he's already proven himself more than capable

[Welf]

I think if Parson knew about the weiling he's plan would be different.
He could have used all dwagons to destroy all sieges in one turn, veil them, and destroy more normal troops the next turn. Or even ambush the fliers.

[ChowGuy]

Don't adjacent uncommanded units have to attack on their turn? Does that mean Ansom is deliberately making all 5 dragon-filled hexes attack him at once?

We've not specifically seen such rule mentioned, or demonstrated. We've only been told that stacks without a leader must auto-attack when in contact with non-allied units, but the term "contact" is vauge. It could mean at rest but adjacent, or it could mean "in motion and attempting to enter the same hex." The latter case however is all we have seen with leaderless stacks. As far as stacks with leaders, they have the option even if in motion of aborting their move rather then attacking.

In fact, it remains to be demonstrated (to my satisfaction) that leaderless stacks can move to attack without (somehow) getting orders from somewhere. And since Ansom knows he himself can't just issue orders without some mechanism (hats, Archons, whatever) he'll assume Stanley can't either.

[Etheric]

Anyone who thinks Ansom is just acting dumb at this point has not been paying attention. He has thought of something, to be honest I don't think we have enough information to see what it is.

We know ansom has no lookomancers, but it said nothing about foolomancers. The trap is to leave ansom vulnerable and far away from reinforcements. I think he is going to get some veiled reinforcements from somewhere, so the healed dwagons attack him (stanley will not allow anything else), then the dwagon stack will get a shock when they try to take the arkenpliars.

Either that or we really don't have enough information. Basically if the dwagons take out ansom next turn, capture the pliars part 1 is over in a huge anticlimax, and I have too much faith in the writing for that to be it. Something HAS to be up.

Edit, I just thought of something else :D. Ansom just veiled his main stack and the stack in the middle is some sort of an illusion. Basically he is using the same trick backwards, which kind of fits the dialogue, this is a great trick, hey why don't I do the same thing!

[ChowGuy]

As said before, veiling something from someone who has to rely on scouts and hats anyway is slightly redundant.
Not really. Veiling from scouts may be even more important, as it allows you to set up an ambush in the FoW, and wait for the enemy to walk into it even if they scout ahead.

As for the "He relies on hats!" that was an entirely different brainstorm. The hats have nothing to do with the scouts, except that they could use them to report back at full range. They have everything to do with the fact that Ansom's lines of communication are restricted. Thus, isolating him away from the column severely limits his command options and thus his ability to react to what he's found in the Donut. Or rather, not found.


He could have used all dwagons to destroy all sieges in one turn, veil them, and destroy more normal troops the next turn. Or even ambush the fliers.
Ambush the fliers, perhaps. But not, I think, to mount any additional attacks on the column. The cut-off point between the A and B Dwagons was based on moves, not "how many do I need to hold back?" so I doubt the B-Dwagons would have been able to reach the column, attack, and withdraw to a safe distance anyway. Remeber, his plan called for using the A-Dwagons with the least move first, so those with longer range could hit deeper into the column.


I think he is going to get some veiled reinforcements from somewhere
See above re: line of communication. Also, if he had any available units that could reach (other then a pitiful few air units) he have taken them in with him. Veiling the air units now gets him nowhere. Parson knows he has them, and where the were (right where he was planning his ambush), will have been watching them (he's not dumb either) and will notice if they have suddenly "disappeared."

[Miklus]

Wow.
The Gobwin Knob victory has just become trivial. Stanley would have to go far out of his way to boop up his own side's chances at this point.


Nope. It is said somewhere that Stanley once held 11 cities. Now he holds just one. How many cities does the coalition have total? 30? 50? Even if the enitre column is destroyed, they can just build more troops. Even if Gobwin Knob is a very good city, they coalition can outproduce it ten times over.

The only way for Parson to win this is to turn the coalition fractions against each other. That is, if GK survives the imminent onslaught.

[Etheric]

Also, if he had any available units that could reach (other then a pitiful few air units) he have taken them in with him.

Not necessarily. Firstly he left Jullian and the archerons in reserve. Secondly he needed FOREST units to attack the dwagons. ANY unit can defend, particiularly if teh warlords get turned ot dust by the arkenpliars.



Veiling the air units now gets him nowhere. Parson knows he has them, and where the were (right where he was planning his ambush), will have been watching them (he's not dumb either) and will notice if they have suddenly "disappeared."
Ansom has rather a lot of units. It is possible to lose track.

I do wonder if foolomancers can make illusions of units as well, in which case the other alternitive is ansom is cloaked and there is again nothing in the centre hex as I stated above. ALso if they can cloak units and make illusions then there is no way to know units have been cloaked.

Fun. It is cool that we are back to where we were a few strips ago. ITS A TRAP, but is it a trap where there is nothing in the middle or where there is a stronger force than expected in the middle?

Unless you really believe part 1 is almost over?, with what is frankly rather an anticlimatic ending.

[Demented]

At least a few don't seem to assume the same truths, so I'll just state that I'm assuming these truths:
- Most of his forest attack force is out of move.
- No other units, aside from Jillian+Gwiffons, are in range to help.
- He doesn't have the hats to contact the column anyway.
Are we even sure that he knows what Stanley has done with the thinkamancer trio?

I'm doubtful. It makes things more exciting that way.

And it's just beginning to dawn over marblehead that Stanley is well and truly different from all the earlier encounters involving aforementioned 11 cities.

Assuming Ansom doesn't pull a Parson, he's left to calling in Jillian, to help make his little defensive post in the forust (ed note: this erfworld spelling is getting to me...) a tough nut to crak... (ed note: oh dear)

Alternately, he, Vinny and the bats may have enough move to make it back to the column, or even punch through the thin wall of dragons, at the cost of leaving the forest units behind.



Also, who has noticed that Vinny shows only one tooth at a time, but not the same tooth, in this page alone? There was a debate before over him having only one tooth, but this... this probably deserves another discussion thread. Or not! Silly running gags...

[Aris Katsaris]

*Sigh* I get annoyed when people declare something that has not even happened yet to be "anticlimactic". This boils down to nothing other than "The writer could never find any way to make this thing interesting."

It betrays a lack of imagination and a lack of faith in the writer both.

If you were to call something anticlimactic, please do so on something that has already been seen in the comic, and which didn't satisfy your sense of drama. You can't just dismiss something a version of something that hasn't happened yet as boring, thus indicating you personally can't think of a way it would be interesting.

No, I don't think that something anti-climactic will happen, because so far the writers of Erfworld haven't disappointed me. But *my* ideas on what might possibly be anticlimactic and *your* ideas of what would definitely be anticlimactic can differ vastly.

[Vreejack]

Believe it or not we all sort of predicted this. Several people had suggested that Parson might have used a foolamancer to veil the units, but I know I for one had replied that even if it were possible (I thought it unlikely because it is so powerful), Parson had never had an opportunity to learn about that trick. And that is exactly how it developed in this episode. Well, I thought it was funny.

Oh, and once again Parson gets extremely lucky, in that his ignorance did not hurt him and arguably helped. The first time was talking to Misty, and now this. Parson is leading a charmed life.

Time for a rant. For the love of all things 2-dimensional, will people please stop thinking that adjacent hexes are in combat? They cannot even see each other! Combat only occurs when enemy units share the same hex.

[katana2665]

...Wow. Nice job as always...

No General would willingly charge into the middle of a foray, thereby allowing himself to be surrounded, without a plan. Ansom yells out "Battle Formations!" That could mean that formations can give bonuses. I am an rpg guy, not a wargame / stack guy, but it seems to me we are in for an Rourke's Drift type of situation. Ansom's forces are surrounded and put themselves into a British square. With the heroic Ansom in the center, the units all gain bonuses (known and unknown) and at that most climatic moment, Ansom works out the Arkenpliers for a truly epic fight....but then i'm just guessing here...lol

[SteveMB]

Also from a purely storytelling perspective, the authors are very fond of misdirection. Wanda explaining about veiled units makes everyone think about hidden units - I should say confirms thoughts about hidden units since half of the discussion about the dragon fort involved theoretical hidden units. We assume, as she is doing, that is indeed what Ansom thinks is happening. That's the bait.

It occurs to me that we don't know whether the triniteyemancer could, in fact, veil the wounded dwagons. Presumably they do have some ability to veil units, since a previous use of that ability is the most straightforward way for Ansom to know that they have a Foolamancer and for Wanda to know that he knows*, but this may be beyond the limits of that power.

*That said, another possibility is that the Foolamancer was captured from one of the factions now coming after Stanley's hide.


I expected Ansom to scout the surrounding hexes once he noticed the central one was empty... Then he'd found the lake. BUT he didn't. Man, that guy's a really snotnosed big-head. It will be interesting to see the Tool <-> Hamster conflict on how to handle this. I hope so much Parson can convince Stanley of whatever he's planning...

If Parson's idea is to capture rather than croaking Ansom, it should be easy -- just remind the Tool that it will give him the opportunity for personally gloating in Ansom's face.

[Vreejack]

I do wonder if foolomancers can make illusions of units as well, in which case the other alternitive is ansom is cloaked and there is again nothing in the centre hex as I stated above. ALso if they can cloak units and make illusions then there is no way to know units have been cloaked.

This has been discussed. Someone pointed out that the illusionary units they use to populate the board back at Stanley's tower are not very realistic; they would have to do a lot better than that in the field. And let's face it: in magic it is a lot easier to hide something than to make a convincing illusion that something is present when it is not.


Fun. It is cool that we are back to where we were a few strips ago. ITS A TRAP, but is it a trap where there is nothing in the middle or where there is a stronger force than expected in the middle?

Charging into the center was a great tactical blunder. Ansom himself was probably within range of the real location of the wounded dwagons, but he just burned two more move and may not be any more. He did have the option of joining up with Jillian and the archons and assaulting the real wounded hex but that option might be unavailable, now. He is truly booped if he does not croak those warlords this turn. I still think his best option is to give the arkenpliers to Jillian--who should have enough move--and send her against the dwagons, with the gwiffons and archons supporting. As long as the warlords are re-croaked the pliers will not be lost.


Unless you really believe part 1 is almost over?, with what is frankly rather an anticlimatic ending.

If it ended on this strip I would agree. But it doesn't so I don't.

[zeropsm]

:mad: :smallfurious: :smallmad:

I´m the only one who thinks that ansom and vinnie may have more move points than normal infantary? Bothe of them are flyers

They know that their infantary cannot retreat, so they went to check the veil thingie...

But i think they can return to the column safely, but not without losing all his forest units/archers...well...that would be enougth to let the dwragons runn freely over the column...

Just my point of view...

[Wings]

How would the veiling be balanced, since hiding units from visual inspection is fairly powerful, does it only work if 1 or 2 units can see them, if the units don't attack, or can it only be done to a very few number of stacks at once?

[themunck]

To the people who say that Ansom dosen't have hats to report with:

Look at the large, black thing on vinny's head...

[MedPig]

If I were in Parson's place, I'd give Ansom (or his eventual replacement) the most horrible runaround they've ever had the misfortune to experience. Make them doubt anything and everything they've relied on. Up is down, left is right, black is white, evil is good! Make them hesitate. Make them do risky maneuvers. Make them use their trump cards, that only make things worse. The string of "victories" is only the beginning. The Donut of Doom is only a foretaste. If before we've given Vinny suspicions, now give him outright paranoid nightmares. You can let them suffer, but play to WIN, Parson.

"Gaslighting", that's called.

Make the object of your affections begin to doubt what is real, or otherwise. It's hard to do well, but from a single person up to an entire army, it IS possible...

(Think of all the fake radio traffic in the first Gulf War, making Saddam think they were coming in through Kuwait, while everything with move was doing the "Hail Mary Pass" movement...)

I'd have Ansom looking at his own people as traitors by the time he gets to GK...

PsyOps are fun.

[pendell]

Gentles,

Let's not get too excited about this development. There is still the possibility for it to go terribly, horribly wrong.

Why? Because Stanley is awake now. He's arrogant, he's not very bright, and Lord Hamster doesn't know how to manage him yet. There's a very good chance his 'contributions' can still wreck the plan.

And when it does, it won't be HIS fault now, will it? He'll scapegoat Hamster. Everyone who's ever been corporate knows how this works.


Not totally, mind you. But enough to keep Ansom alive and allow there to be a continuing arc.

I agree, this looks promising. But I ain't counting any scalps until they're safely hung on the barn door.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[SteveMB]

To the people who say that Ansom dosen't have hats to report with:

Look at the large, black thing on vinny's head...

If it's the same one Ansom was using earlier as his link to Jillian, it's one-way (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0057.html) (receive-only, and perhaps only from the specific hat sent with Jillian and now in Webinar's possession).

[Scientivore]

How would the veiling be balanced, since hiding units from visual inspection is fairly powerful, does it only work if 1 or 2 units can see them, if the units don't attack, or can it only be done to a very few number of stacks at once?

Beats me. *shrug* Maybe if they're being led by warlords (keeping them from attacking), your stack needs to be worth more points than theirs to flush them out of hiding? I'm trying to imagine why Ansom went all-in instead of just sending in some woodsy elves.

[ShiningTed]

Just wanted to say how damn good the writing in this has been.

I know Rob had reservations about this style of story-telling (not being able to pull off a gag every strip like Rich does) but he is delivering EVERY strip, he really is. Kudos, Rob!!! (You too Jamie :smallwink: )

[Demonicbunny]

I'm thinking that since there is no need for Ansom to preserve his units (if there arn't a bunch of dragons in that hex) he might as well just blaze his way through the other side of the dragon circle and fight his way back to the column.

[Vreejack]

Beats me. *shrug* Maybe if they're being led by warlords (keeping them from attacking), your stack needs to be worth more points than theirs to flush them out of hiding? I'm trying to imagine why Ansom went all-in instead of just sending in some woodsy elves.

It's because he was so sure that it was just a simple trick on Stanley's part. Plus, as you say he might have needed a lot of units to expose the deception; obviously one bat was not enough. In for one schmucker, in for a thousand.

[darkgolem]

This page feels a bit Deus Ex Machina to me, in that an unknown and completely new factor is thrown into the mix, which could radically change the whole situation.

If you could veil units, then why did Ansom depend upon the bats for scouting?

The center hex was scouted by a bat and found empty, implying that scouting with a mob will discover veiled units.

However, now Ansom enters the hex in battle formation, implying that scouting a hex with a mob will NOT discover veiled units.

However, if that is the case, why is Ansom depending upon the initial scouting by vinnie's bats that found the original fortress.

I don't know if I buy that Ansom is entering the fortress for the purpose of fighting what he believes are veiled units.

However, he can't possibly believe he will take on the entire fortress in some massive batle.

Nor is it likely that he has the game equivalent to a nuke (that is, a massive multihex damage effect).. else why would he need seige for gobwin knob.

So Frankly, I don't know what is going to happen.

[factotum]

If it's the same one Ansom was using earlier as his link to Jillian, it's one-way (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0057.html) (receive-only, and perhaps only from the specific hat sent with Jillian and now in Webinar's possession).

Do we know that for sure? We know that Jillian's hat was SEND only, but I don't think it's ever been explicitly stated that Ansom's will only receive.

[Krelon]

What does "Time out." mean?

Alliance end of turn? That would be just too good for Parson.

Ansom has divided his forces into 3 groups:
A Jillian+Webinora+heavies+flyers+archons
B column & siege (spread)
C Ansom+Vinnie+bats+forest capable units

he simply must do some things:
move A to provide air cover to either B or C
consolidate B to make hit'n'run more difficult
decide what happens with C.

if he&vinnie have move left, it'll be probably better to abandon the forest group
if he has no move it'll probably be better to pull everything into that hex and sacrifice himself to take out so many dwagons that the rest of the alliance can take GK

when Pason teleported to GK, Ansom had 4 times the strength necesarry to take GK. It makes sense that even if Parson wins the 'little battle' big time (removing siege, removing warlords,...) then Ansom (his successor) will still have twice the stregth needed to take GK and things will be very much depending on the tunnel fights (sounds messy and almost anything could happen there). In my opinion that is not anticlimatic, it's just moving the scenario from impossible to win to very hard but possible to win.

I like the way the authors have planned this. IF Parson can damage the alliance a lot then they [the authors] don't have to pull some rabbit out of the hat (like Stanley attunes to the plyers and insta-wins vs. 25x stronger enemy) which would be really unsatisfying from a strategy game point of view. Now there is a chance that superior strategy combined with personal heroism (Bogroll, Sizemore, Wanda, even Parson grabbing a sword and doing a last man standing in a crucial moment) CAN have a chance to win the day.

[SteveMB]

What does "Time out." mean?
In this context, it means to drop the current line of conversation and switch gears to a new topic.

[Etheric]

It's because he was so sure that it was just a simple trick on Stanley's part. Plus, as you say he might have needed a lot of units to expose the deception; obviously one bat was not enough. In for one schmucker, in for a thousand.

You have no conclusive evidence of that. That is Wanda's theory, and it kind of fits the evidence on the page, but it would also be very poor writing. SOMETHING is not what we think it is. A good story teller does not put his cards on the table that obviously. So far the story has been good, so I am sure you are wrong.

I agree with the above it does feel a bit Deus Ex Machina. Something is up, and it is probably something that we have not had explained properly yet. We might get more of a clue next strip I think. I do wonder what the Mm from sizemore in the previous strip means something. He understands magic, and he knows what is possible iwth it. If something is possible he will know.

I still stand by the statement of what is NOT going to happen, which is next turn the dragon stack piles in, croaks or caputres ansom and Vinny. The arkenpliars go to Stanley. At that point the story is over, Webnar becomes leader of the coalition, Jillian gets thrown out and teh dwagons nuke the rest of the collumn. There will be a better ending than that. Who is going to win I have no idea, but it will not be something that simple.

Hence Ansom is UP TO SOMETHING. He knows what he is doing. There is some sort of plan going on. It is not going to work 100%, but Parson is in for at least one shock when he hits the centre hex.

[grumbleboom]

One other thing that we don't know is how combat works when attacking a stack when BOTH stacks have warlords. It is possible that Ansom and crew will get firststrike on any attack that hits them.

If that IS the case, we know that Ansom can drop a dwagon in one hit. We still don't know how Vinnie and Tarfu fight, but we can assume greatness.

From Page 59, it appears that a group of woodsies that has a warlord can drop a dwagon and a single Gump can drop a dwagon as well. If you look at the map you see 4 light lines (probably 4 stacks of woodsies), one heavy line (probably 8 gumps), one medium line (bats?) and the three warlords (hopefully you know them)

4 stacks of woodsies = 4 dwagons
8 gumps = 8 dwagons
3 warlords = at least 3 dwagons

Now i know this is taking a HUGE assumption (firststrike) but those are some pretty mighty losses if i'm right and they do hit Ansom. And that's not counting the possibility of Jillian popping in for reinforcements... Oh, and i'm not forgetting about the undead warlords, just throwing this idea out there for amusement.

[SteveMB]

From Page 59, it appears that a group of woodsies that has a warlord can drop a dwagon and a single Gump can drop a dwagon as well. If you look at the map you see 4 light lines (probably 4 stacks of woodsies), one heavy line (probably 8 gumps), one medium line (bats?) and the three warlords (hopefully you know them)
We don't know how many hits they had to inflict before those final croaking strikes, or how high a butchers' bill they paid in the process.

[CNagy]

Unexpected, very unexpected. I still believe that tactically it isn't the greatest idea, but that's more a matter of preference (I'd have gone after the siege.)

However, Ansom is not out just yet. Assuming his troops have 1 more move (and honestly, we don't know how much move they have, only that they are running out,) he can attempt to burst through one of the stacks. Also, he can call upon Jillian, six Gwiffons, and three Archons. Since they would be coming straight to an outer hex instead of going around and coming through the opening, they will have conserved some move. Ansom could lead a pincer attack of his own on that stack of Dwagons. Once his troops and the aforementioned reinforcements show up, he is in a better defensive position. It's not perfect, but an unknown factor could make it perfect.

5 Gwiffons, not including Jillians. 5 Gwiffons with move left since they didn't need to circle the platter to enter. If even 3 survive the stack battle, out-of-move Warlords could mount up and ride back to the column (since it is so close.) Likewise with Jillian and the Archons, their remaining move could allow them to make it to the column. They would have to leave the remainder of the troops, but it is a necessary sacrifice. Ansom returning to the column would bestow his leadership bonus on all of the units in his hex, making that hex of the column too strong to safely attack.

It's speculation, but it is the best thing I can think of short of being given another new erfworld mechanics revelation.

[grumbleboom]

If you look in the first frame of the comic you can see 6 woodsie bows and tarfu. If that's the case.... they MIGHT have lost one. And my statement was a worst case scenario for GK... shoulda said that :smallredface:

[Stonedef]

He was hoping Ansom wouldn't scout, and would charge in blind. That Ansom would scout, then charge in knowing it was empty, was weird.

I think Ansom went in "knowing" The Tool was playing a trick on him by having the wounded units veiled in the center hex.

Instead of uncovering Stanley's cheap trick though(which it would have been since everyone BUT Parson knew you could veil units) he just dug himself deeper. Next turn Parson can hit Ansom (if he chooses to of course) with all the A and B units healed up.

Parson's confusion lies in the fact that he sees Ansoms move as a dumb one tactically, though if Parson knew you could veil units before this he might have expected it since he probably would have guessed that Ansom would think Stanley would do that... so he could work harder to make more money so he could buy more coke so he could work harder to make more money...

Kinda a series of circular assumptions, all made with missing information on the character's POV.. :)

[Caledonian]

Hang on. I just realized something, I'm curious. Today, Parson said, "[He moved] into the center hex? Why would he do that?" But just last page, he said, "I was kinda hoping he'd just go charging into the center hex."

Yes. It was Ansom's charging into the center hex, even though he'd first scouted it, that's confusing Parson. He doesn't understand the motivation, and so he doesn't understand the action - and anticipating Ansom's actions was the foundation of Parson's plan.

Ironically, being ignorant of all the mechanics may have helped Parson construct an more-effective trap. Not knowing cloaking units was possible, he made a scenario that would cause better-informed people to suspect the possibility.

[Logos7]

regardless of how booped or not booped ansom is, those arkenplyers still dust the undead warlords near instantly. I dont think this is a punch out but a MAD move (as in mutually asured diistrucution)

Parson jumps Ansom, and risks loosingn all his warlords and a significant number of his dragons and maybe capture ansom if the angels dont get meda vacked in, regardless the dragons have to do it in one turn. or the air units will get called in .

Mad for tthe win

Llogos

[B9anders]

here is something I don't understand - Apparently, Ansom is boobed by now. But why wouldn't this have been the case if it wasn't a trap and the nest really was there?

Sure Tool's forces would have taken some heavy losses from it, but surely the fort formation of dwagons would have boobed Ansom at the next turn anyway?

What changes the equation from Ansom's perspective to have made him think he would escape alive being surrounded when going in to hit the wounded stacks in the centre to all of the sudden being boobed when they aren't there?

[Tredrick]

Parson and Stanley are fighting a war, not telling a story. Having Ansom get let off the hook here would be bad writing and, quite frankly, bad generalship from Parson. Ansom and Vinnie are, to us, two major characters in a story. To Parson they are a dangerous enemy. To have them treated any other way would be untrue to what the story should be, a war story.

And Parson should croak them, not capture them. When the US knew where Yamamoto would be in WWII they just went out and killed him. They didn't launch some elaborate scheme to capture him. Parson should know this.

When telling a war story always remember that war comes first.

[DCR]

Ansom is boobed

...Thanks for the visual. I'm off to go BLEACH MY BRAIN now.



all of the sudden being boobed

AAAAAHHHHHH! He did it again!




Anyway, the risk of dying wasn't enough to dissuade the opportunity of wiping out a solid two-fifths of his opponent's strongest units.

Off to bleach my brain again, you horrible, horrible person, you.

[Stolfus]

Anyone else find it odd that Parson and Ansom are the only ones that constantly have fingers?

This mean Ansom is being played by another human?:smalleek:

[SteveMB]

here is something I don't understand - Apparently, Ansom is boobed by now. But why wouldn't this have been the case if it wasn't a trap and the nest really was there?

Sure Tool's forces would have taken some heavy losses from it, but surely the fort formation of dwagons would have boobed Ansom at the next turn anyway?

What changes the equation from Ansom's perspective to have made him think he would escape alive being surrounded when going in to hit the wounded stacks in the centre to all of the sudden being boobed when they aren't there?

The main thing that changes the equation is that Ansom expected to take out the uncroaked warlords. Without them, the remianing donut dwagons would (at least) be unable to focus on specific targets or (at best) not move on him at all (since he's not in the same hex). Which option it is depends on whether Ansom knows that Stanley has some other means of ordering the dwagons to attack -- while he almost certainly doesn't know about the triniteyemancer, he might know that Stanley has a Thinkamancer, which might be sufficient for the purpose.

[Caledonian]

The Erfen Mind Meld?

The Gamesters of Tri-Erfen?

Call them 'The Three'.

[SteveMB]

Ansom is boobed
Thanks for the visual. I'm off to go BLEACH MY BRAIN now....


all of the sudden being boobed
AAAAAHHHHHH! He did it again!

Now I have a mental image of Ansom as the artwork in one of the Munchkin (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/1927) "Curse: Change Sex" cards.

Pass the bleach....

[grumbleboom]

Heh, if Ansom did get changed to a girl, he might be able to win back Jillian's loyalty :smallwink:

off-topic...
<-- loves Munchkin. only played it once

[ralphmerridew]

Time for a rant. For the love of all things 2-dimensional, will people please stop thinking that adjacent hexes are in combat? They cannot even see each other! Combat only occurs when enemy units share the same hex.

There's a simple proof of that; Ansom was able to move into the middle hex after defeating one of the outer hexes; if adjacent hexes were in combat, he'd have to clear three outer hexes to get into the center.

[ralphmerridew]

Perhaps it's just me, but it seems that in the 2nd frame of the last row, Wanda has real hairpins again.
Isn't she still supposed to have sushisticks? Because no sushistick i ever used is pinformed with a little buttonthingy (technical term there) on the end.

Jullian is gone, so no fear that she will croak a small army with them, but I do wonder if it has any significance (as other small details do seem to have)

She took the chopsticks out when she went to sleep in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0049.html ; she put hairpins in when she got dressed for Tool in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0054.html

[SteveMB]

Perhaps it's just me, but it seems that in the 2nd frame of the last row, Wanda has real hairpins again.
Isn't she still supposed to have sushisticks? Because no sushistick i ever used is pinformed with a little buttonthingy (technical term there) on the end.

When she put the chopsticks in her hair, she was wearing a dark gray tube top (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0039.html) with a skull design. Since then, she changed into a butch schoolgirl riding outfit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0045.html), then back into a tube top (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0047.html) (possibly the same one, given that it's hard to match colors seen only by light globe), then gone to bed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0049.html), and then into another outfit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0053.html) to go find out what the boop Parson was doing messing with the triniteyemancer, and finally into a white kimono (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0054.html) to "relax" the Tool. Presumably she replaced the chopsticks with proper hairpins somewhere along the way (especially since she wasn't wearing hairpins at all with several of the outfits).

[molotov02]

She took the chopsticks out when she went to sleep in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0049.html ; she put hairpins in when she got dressed for Tool in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0054.html

yeah, just noticed :smalleek: (oops)

[Glyde]

*facepalm*

This is the sort of thing you tell your warlord, people. <3

Keep the good work rolling, I'm loving this.

[ryos]

I'm sorry that I don't have time to read the whole thread and thus may have already been ninja'd.

Ok. I'm missing something here. Before Ansom began his attack we all thought he had enough move as a flying unit to make it back to the column. I have to wonder, if he's worried about a counterattack now, what was his plan in the beginning? Does he believe he can survive an assault by 24-43 dwagons? Did he not plan that far in advance? Or was he always willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good?

It just doesn't add up. I still think Ansom and Vinny can just high-tail it out of there.

They could also, as has been suggested by others, attempt to punch through the strong hex and make it back to the column. If he's well and truly out of move and thinks he's going to face a horde of Dwagons anyway, he really has no reason not to give that a shot.

[AngryAngel]

Question: Why would Ansom run headlong into what he knows is a trap?

Answer: Lets look ahis tactical situation. He's nearly out of move (for his total force, not necessarily himself) with a massive enemy formation between him and his own lines (remember, he doesn't know about the dwagons over the lake). At this point Ansom basically has three options:

First: Run away. This might save his own skin, but would probably cost him a significant part of his force.

Second: Hunker down in place and hope he can survive long enough for a relief force to reach him.

Third: Do the last thing the enemy expects, and counter-attack.

Ansom seems to have chosen the third option. He went into the trap because that was the shortest route to his own lines. If hits the closest hex from the inside, while other units hit it from the outside, he might manage a breakout. More importantly though, Ansom has retaken the initiative from Parson (however briefly), forcing Parson to react to him instead of the other way around. Again, it might not save Ansom, but it might at least make a Gobwin Knob victory more costly than Parson or His Toolship would like.

[Stonedef]

Question: Why would Ansom run headlong into what he knows is a trap?

....

Third: Do the last thing the enemy expects, and counter-attack.

Ansom seems to have chosen the third option. He went into the trap because that was the shortest route to his own lines. If hits the closest hex from the inside, while other units hit it from the outside, he might manage a breakout. More importantly though, Ansom has retaken the initiative from Parson (however briefly), forcing Parson to react to him instead of the other way around. Again, it might not save Ansom, but it might at least make a Gobwin Knob victory more costly than Parson or His Toolship would like.


Add into this he probably thinks the wounded units _are_ there just veiled. If he doesn't knock them out before they heal at the begining of next turn he will have a much bigger problem on his hands. By attacking the wounded untis now (or thinking he is at least) he is actively reducing the force Stanley will be able to counter attack with.

[Leewei]

Croaking the warlords doesn't necessarily end the seige. Capturing the warlords and ransoming them back for peace and schmuckers, on the other hand...

On second thought, it also may be possible to recruit a disgruntled captured warlord.

[jazz1m]

Ok, so here's what I think is going on/will happen. I do think Ansom expects the wounded dwagons to be veiled in the center, but as he looks around realizes there isn't anything there, and will have to punch through the formation. He'll have to leave the gumps and forest elves behind, but that may be an acceptable loss after having taken out 4 or 5 dragons. Besides, looks like he's almost out of the forest anyway, and he still has plenty of troops/archers left to fend off any remaining dragons.

He still also has Jillian and the archons in reserve and 5 gwiffons (?) with enough move to reach the center hex.

Ansom isn't going to be croaked anytime soon or captured for that matter. He'll work his way out of this conundrum a little worse off, but Parson will also have lost more dwagons than he was counting on.

[sihnfahl]

Ok. I'm missing something here. Before Ansom began his attack we all thought he had enough move as a flying unit to make it back to the column.
Not everyone. Quite a few of us noted that he and Vinny were very low on move going to that hex...


I have to wonder, if he's worried about a counterattack now, what was his plan in the beginning?
Get into the hex, dust the uncroaked warlords, kill the injured dwagons and pull Jillian, the 5 Gwyphons and the 3 archons over him to protect him afterwards. Why else would he have them in reserve? To keep them at full hitsies to protect him from the counterattack.


Does he believe he can survive an assault by 24-43 dwagons?
Whether or not he believed he could survive a counterattack by the remaining dwagons he didn't croak is pretty irrelevant. If all he did was pull the column together to protect the remaining siege, he would have lost his siege anyways due to the sheer numbers and hit-and-run tactics. He had no tactical choice but to go after the injured dwagons and warlords to put a stop to that attack strength and tactic. He was going to use Jillian, her Gwyphons and the Archons to make any counterattack expensive for Stanley. Remember, without the warlords, the dwagons have to stay and fight until croaked or they win.


Did he not plan that far in advance? Or was he always willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good?
He was willing to run the risk of sacrificing himself for the greater good. He was going to make it -expensive- for Stanley. Without the siege, the Battle for Gobwin Knob is pretty much over before it started, giving Stanley time to rebuild, regroup and reconquer. Ansom presumably doesn't have enough tunnel-capable units to get past the defenses (he was going to use them as a diversion), and air assault on a place riddled with towers, defensive bonuses, archers and the most powerful air units imaginable...


It just doesn't add up. I still think Ansom and Vinny can just high-tail it out of there.
And go where? Back to the column? He'd be just as vulnerable there. Even more so, given how many archer and forest units he has with him who are presumably at a good hitsies level. He can't go far - definitely not 50+ hexes...


They could also, as has been suggested by others, attempt to punch through the strong hex and make it back to the column. If he's well and truly out of move and thinks he's going to face a horde of Dwagons anyway, he really has no reason not to give that a shot.
Other than he had to punch his entire force, save for Vinny's useless bats, to get as far as he did. Against twice the numbers? He'd be so low on hitsies that he'd just be asking for trouble. The dwagons will heal to full before him. They'll be at full health and move... and he'll be going 'HEALPLZ'.

Plus, he'll be facing twice the number of dwagons that he was expecting; remember, he believed he was going to take out 2 dozen heavily wounded dwagons going in. Now he's almost surrounded by 2 dozen dwagons at full health AND has 2 dozen more about to heal and bear down on him.

[DreadArchon]

The Gobwin Knob victory has just become trivial. Stanley would have to go far out of his way to boop up his own side's chances at this point.
Yeah, Parson/Stanley are only outnumbered 24.8 to 1, rather than 25 to 1! They might as well start partying now! Why, the enemy faction is even about to lose its competent and astute leader! Huzzah!

Also, on veiling: It's probably far from foolproof, or Stanley would have been unlikely to lose in the first place. (He could have just said "Attack, veil. Haha, I'm untouchable. Next turn: Attack, veil. Haha.")

[jazz1m]

The dwagons will heal to full before him. They'll be at full health and move... and he'll be going 'HEALPLZ'.

Doesn't he have lofty and altruistic elves with him that can heal?

[ldknemene]

Wow, great strip.

Is anyone else looking forward to seeing Pars kind of neeaon's next stupid meal toy will be? Or is going to gain any more equipment otherways?

So far he has:
Armor alla henchman
3-D glass of stats
Gauntlet of mathamancy

The glasses where usefull but silly looking, but the other pieces are making him into a more intimidating looking character. I think it would be kind of neat to have a scene at some point with the Jetstone surrender, and have them introduced to a very cool looking Parson, fully equiped, as the Chief Warlord that defeated them.

Also those stupid meal toys do seem to help justify Parson's upkeep costs. And who the heck is deciding what items Parson should get?

[jindra34]

Doesn't he have altruistic elves with him that can heal?

Nope just woodsies.



Also, on veiling: It's probably far from foolproof, or Stanley would have been unlikely to lose in the first place. (He could have just said "Attack, veil. Haha, I'm untouchable. Next turn: Attack, veil. Haha.")
All veiling does is make them harder to find. i suspect that there are rules for breaking said veils.

[SteveMB]

Also, on veiling: It's probably far from foolproof, or Stanley would have been unlikely to lose in the first place. (He could have just said "Attack, veil. Haha, I'm untouchable. Next turn: Attack, veil. Haha.")

Presumably, there are some major downsides to veiling (High cost? High risk of failure? Reduction of the veiled unit's abilities?), or it would be used routinely.

[sihnfahl]

Ansom seems to have chosen the third option. He went into the trap because that was the shortest route to his own lines. If hits the closest hex from the inside, while other units hit it from the outside, he might manage a breakout. More importantly though, Ansom has retaken the initiative from Parson (however briefly), forcing Parson to react to him instead of the other way around. Again, it might not save Ansom, but it might at least make a Gobwin Knob victory more costly than Parson or His Toolship would like.
No, he went into the hex because he can't believe Stanley was that capable. He thinks the dwagons and warlords are veiled. He rushed in to flush them out.

And charging through, even with Jillian and the archons as his only backup, would be absolutely nuts. Out of an original force of 47, Ansom croaks 9. That means his limited numbers are whittled down even further, he's at low hitsies, and he faces 38 dwagons with 3 warlords, all at full health.

And why would you think it forces Parson to react to him? Turn-based game. Ansom's alone, low move, no reinforcements to speak of. Parson can completely ignore Ansom if he wanted to and lay waste to the remaining siege. Or he could capture/croak Ansom. Whatever Parson does now, Ansom can't react to. And the dwagons are close enough to GK that Ansom wouldn't be able to counterattack.

[Mr. Dragon]

Presumably, there are some major downsides to veiling (High cost? High risk of failure? Reduction of the veiled unit's abilities?), or it would be used routinely.

First of all, it seems to take a Foolamancer. We have no proves the Alliance has one. Wanda says "He knows we have A Foolamancer" (of course, emphasis added), makes me think that they are pretty pretty rare. As, in general, are the 'mancers. It may seem that Stanley has many, but actually afaik we have 'met':

- Wanda
- Sizemore
- the 3 'mancers bound in the strategic-map setup

It may well be the case that Stanley has only those casters (so much places they can else be, eh... there is only GK left of Stanley's initial cities). And for some reason I don't think the Alliance has so many more (though it may well be the case that any number of the what we think are warlords of Ansom's war council are actually 'mancers, counselors ala Wanda).

[The_Gut]

Nice comic!

I can't wait till the "real" conflict starts - Parson versus Stanley. The war's just a throwaway event, I think. Parson will win it, and fairly easily. The real interesting part of the comic is going to be when he fully realizes just how much of a twit Stanley is, and what he has done to maintain power. (I.E, linking the wizards). If he doesn't turn against Stanley at that point - well he is a poor excuse for a human being. So far, he appears to be a fairly decent sort.

Or, more likely, it will be Parson versus Wanda and her flunky Stanley.

I'm not that interested in the war..... its pretty much a given that Parson will win. Or maybe sabotage his present side, and switch before its too late.

Really interesting comic.

[Etheric]

No, he went into the hex because he can't believe Stanley was that capable. He thinks the dwagons and warlords are veiled. He rushed in to flush them out.

If that were true we would have seen it from Ansom's mouth not Wandas. It is hard to disprove that one at this point, but I am convinced that is not why he did it. Parson is also pretty doubtful.



And charging through, even with Jillian and the archons as his only backup, would be absolutely nuts. Out of an original force of 47, Ansom croaks 9. That means his limited numbers are whittled down even further, he's at low hitsies, and he faces 38 dwagons with 3 warlords, all at full health.

And why would you think it forces Parson to react to him? Turn-based game. Ansom's alone, low move, no reinforcements to speak of. Parson can completely ignore Ansom if he wanted to and lay waste to the remaining siege. Or he could capture/croak Ansom. Whatever Parson does now, Ansom can't react to. And the dwagons are close enough to GK that Ansom wouldn't be able to counterattack.

Firstly if he thinks he is in trouble he is better off hitting the dwagons than staying still. Better to fight dwagons without a max stack bonus and without a warlord bonus then with.

If he has any move left then hitting the dwagons on the other side to make a gap in the line to get closer to reinfocements is one way. There are no FOREST capable units that can reach, but there must be other units that can reach. And for defense he only needs units not forest capable units. Turn the warlords to dust and surgical strikes are out. It might be enough. Jillian and the archerons are probably about a match for 4-6 dwagons so maybe they could get through the line too.

I still look at the dialogue though

V : This looks like a pretty shrewd trick, arright
A : Yes, Yes it does.
A : Yes it does!
A : Battle Formations!

Ansom worked something out there. My feeling is that he has thought of a way to pull the trick on reverse. Something involving magic, and maybe the veiling of troops.

My guess is we are going to get a nice exposition of how veiling works in the next comic, and very soon a demonstration of it in practice.

Hmm ok time to stop speculating, my gut feeling is we don't have enough info yet to see what Ansom is up to (assuming he is, and this is not going to be the end of part 1 very soon). Hmm waiting for the next one :D.

[grumbleboom]

Just thought of something...

Parson could go out and grab the OTHER warlords. We don't know where they are, but they are probably weaker then Ansom and since they have basically no way of keeping tabs on the action, really wouldn't be expecting it.

[Divine Hammer]

For those reveling in Ansom's so-called arrogance or stupidity, it should be pointed out that the only reason Ansom's decisions have seemed so bad is that he's now matching wits from a strategist from a different reality. Since Ansom doesn't get to read this comic and then discuss it to death on the forum here, he can't really figure that into his plans.

In this comic, would appear to have better instincts for the situation than Vinnie. Vinnie is grasping for explanations for the enemy's sudden and unexpected tactical acumen, while Ansom is certain that the trap he has just runrunruuuun into is beyond Stanley. Not only is Ansom right, it turns out that the only way to keep Stanley from booping up the trap before it was set was to sic a naked croakamancer on him.

Ansom appears to know his enemy so well that there's little wonder about how Stanley has been beaten back to the fortress of Gobwin Knob. The burst of inspiration that led him to charge into the center hex (?!) may have been sheer brilliance if Stanley had been calling the shots.

I keep hearing about this fatal flaw of PRIDE!!!11! that Ansom is supposed to be carrying around, but I'm still waiting to see it. Recognizing that your enemy is an idiot when he really is does not suggest hubris. Neither does commanding and leading troops into battle. Ansom appears to have that Divine Right of Kings belief going, and his motivation for leading this fight may go beyond retribution for those wronged by Stanley's earlier campaign.

Is that it, though? Next to Stanley, Ansom is St. Bernardette. Hell, when Ansom talks about going after the dwagons, he doesn't even speak in first person. If he's so pumped up with pride, shouldn't he at least be talking about "my" upcoming victory and how "I" will crush Stanley and snatch the Arkenhammer from his filthy, unworthy, commoner's hands?

I dunno, maybe we'll see some of this supposed ego come through after whomping he's about to take. That is, if there's anything left to hold an ego.

[Divine Hammer]

Ansom worked something out there. My feeling is that he has thought of a way to pull the trick on reverse. Something involving magic, and maybe the veiling of troops.


I think he "realized" that Stanley must be hiding troops there, since the alternative was a trap beyond Stanley's capabilties to devise. The panel where he's there in an empty forest with the Arkenpliers, all dressed up with nowhere to go, confirms that for me. He worked out that his target was really there, veiled by magic.

I don't think Ansom's "plan" goes beyond the center hex. It was a burst of inspiration, a sudden realization of the enemy's strategy.

But it was dead, dead wrong.

[Toloran]

I'm thinking "veiled" units is similar to the starcraft zerg ability to burrow. When you burrow units, they cannot be seen or attacked (and they themselves cannot attack either). However, if you have a detector unit you can attack them and they cannot attack back.

If the same (or similar) is true here, then Ansom is doing what is best considering what he knows. The dragons would be sitting ducks in such an instance instead of a fierce battle like he was expecting. However, since they aren't there.... well..... He is kinda booped :)

[DavidByron]

reference page on types of magicians (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0040.html)

You have to wonder why Parson never says something like, "Ok what 'mancers do we have? What 'mancers does he have? What can they all do?"

The answer appears to be that Stanley has five mancers and Ansom just one -- a hat magician. But who knows? perhaps he has other stagemancers.

The next question is "How easy is it to get other 'mancers?" of course the in story reason why Parson is still having these "I'm so dumb" moments is that he's only been there for 36 hours and everyone apart from Sizemore is a tool when it comes to giving out vital data. It's almost as if they were one dimensional characters in a board game instead of real people who could just converse about data even if chatting about stuff is not part of their normal duties.

Note: Wanda doesn't say that they can cast a veil spell. She says Ansom thinks they can. Why? Because he knows they have a foolamancer. But that's not really true. They don't have a foolamancer any more. They have the eyemancer trio. In the same way they may not be able to use their thinkamancer to send thinkagrams.


It occurs to me that we don't know whether the triniteyemancer could, in fact, veil the wounded dwagons. Presumably they do have some ability to veil units, since a previous use of that ability is the most straightforward way for Ansom to know that they have a Foolamancer and for Wanda to know that he knows*, but this may be beyond the limits of that power.

*That said, another possibility is that the Foolamancer was captured from one of the factions now coming after Stanley's hide.


I think that each side has perfect knowledge of the other side's 'mancer roster somehow. This sort of knowledge is assumed when Wanda casually says eg. "Ansom has no lookamancers" or "He knows we have a foolamancer". That sort of knowledge is common in this sort of board game.

Sure would be interesting to know what the other 15 types of 'mancer (beyond the nine alluded to) can do to effect wars. Some are pretty guessable. Some are not.

[sihnfahl]

If that were true we would have seen it from Ansom's mouth not Wandas. It is hard to disprove that one at this point, but I am convinced that is not why he did it. Parson is also pretty doubtful.

No, Parson isn't doubtful; he's disbelieving.

Parson believes that Ansom knows the hex is empty (remember, Parson doesn't know he can veil units in that frame). It would make no sense for someone, knowing a hex is empty, to walk into that hex knowing they would be surrounded by dwagons.


Firstly if he thinks he is in trouble he is better off hitting the dwagons than staying still. Better to fight dwagons without a max stack bonus and without a warlord bonus then with.
And lose more units, reduce his hitsies, make himself more vulnerable. Wonderful victory.


If he has any move left then hitting the dwagons on the other side to make a gap in the line to get closer to reinfocements is one way. There are no FOREST capable units that can reach, but there must be other units that can reach. And for defense he only needs units not forest capable units. Turn the warlords to dust and surgical strikes are out. It might be enough. Jillian and the archerons are probably about a match for 4-6 dwagons so maybe they could get through the line too.
If he gets out of the forest and to the road, only Archery units would be his defense. In the woods, all the forest-capable units are his defense. And getting through the six-stack would still weaken him. Even with Jillian and the Archons as backup, he'd still have 38 dwagons with 3 warlords to worry about next turn.


Ansom worked something out there. My feeling is that he has thought of a way to pull the trick on reverse. Something involving magic, and maybe the veiling of troops.
... what, now? Which units would he veil? And if he could use magic to protect himself or his units in some way, make a defense/offense more viable, why the heck wouldn't he have used it and prepared it going in?

[ShiningTed]

Ansom worked something out there. My feeling is that he has thought of a way to pull the trick on reverse. Something involving magic, and maybe the veiling of troops.I think you're missing the two levels this story is being told on.

Look at that last picture of Ansom. By himself, in a forest clearing. Nothing around - no expected veiled dwagons, nothing.

I suspect that image came about like this:

Rob: Make Ansom look like a sitting duck.
Jamie: Gotcha.

Ansom thought he had a revelation about the dwagons being veiled: he said it looked like something shrewd, meaning the looks were deceiving. Then he charged in. He was wrong.

The question still remains, what are Jillian and the archons going to do before Ansom's turn ends?

[TheTurnipKing]

I think Ansom knows he and his can take whatever those Dwagons around the outside can dish out this turn, and he'll have air-cav ready to ride to the rescue on his next.

I also think that the next turn is going to be interesting. Stanley has made his intentions clear and with the Arkenpliers at stake, I don't think even Wanda will be able to keep him from meddling next turn, which is going to be painful if his actions are as predicatable for Ansom as it seems they are.

[SteveMB]

Firstly if he thinks he is in trouble he is better off hitting the dwagons than staying still. Better to fight dwagons without a max stack bonus and without a warlord bonus then with.
And lose more units, reduce his hitsies, make himself more vulnerable. Wonderful victory.
As far as Ansom knew, his alternatives were:

1. Go after the wounded dwagons and uncroaked warlords now, when the dwagons just need a little more damage to croak. Take enough force to survive attacks by the donut dwagons (which will have no warlords, and will therefore have to fight whichever enemy units they encounter -- screen the high-value defenders with the tough but expendable ones).

2. Sit back and wait for the wounded dwagons to heal, ready to destroy the rest of the siege units on Stanley's next turn.

He decided that option 1 was the lesser evil.

[Aliquid]

If that were true we would have seen it from Ansom's mouth not Wandas. It is hard to disprove that one at this point, but I am convinced that is not why he did it. Parson is also pretty doubtful.The reason we see it from Wanda's mouth, not Ansom's is because the comic needed to show Parson learning this piece of information.

Wanda is completely correct. Ansom can't believe that the Tool is smarter than him, and he doesn't know about Parson. Therefore as far as Ansom is concerned it is impossible that he was outsmarted. It is impossible that this is a trap.

Therefore, there is only one explanation that Ansom can believe:
The wounded troops are in the center hex. They are wounded, and the Tool has veiled them in a desperate attempt to protect them from Ansom's troops. Now Ansom is rushing in to crush the wounded Warlords, he is thinking "Ha, your veil didn't fool me".

[darkgolem]

I note that, since Ansom believes that the bat before entered the hex and was not attacked, this confirms that if a warlord is with troops and defending, and is attacked by a unlead stack, they warlord can choose not to engage.

[ChowGuy]

Now i know this is taking a HUGE assumption (firststrike)
It's taking anenormous assumptio. It's taking for one thing the assumption that combat proceeds in turns, when in fact we've seen nothing to confirm that, or even indicate it. To the contrary, from just about every instance of combat we've it appears that once initiatied it proceeds in real-time, with both sides acting simultaneously. We've also seen, despite all the talk of "selective targeting" that manuvering within combat to is still required to get to a particular target. You don't just say "OK, all you other Dwagons stay put, while I walk up to that Warlord waaaay back there and croak him."

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0010.html) we see Jillian croak one of Stanleys undead, but the Twoll gets no combat turn before she and the Orlies croak him and the others. He apparently doesn't even see the first attack.

A bit later (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0012.html) we see deploying the Orlies even as the Dwagons close for battle. She specifically tells them "buy me some time" to reach her chosen target. We see their fate shoulder while she's fighting, between the panels in which she's poised to strike and the Dwagon drops.

Webinar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0025.html) tells his group to "Hold fast. Take it like it's a drill" but then we see one of the Battle Bears throwing at the same time a Spidew is ripping into another, who proceeds to clobber it while croaking (notice the "x" eye).

.And of course in the column attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0056.html) itself, we see arrows in the air at the red whose just decorpitated a Battle Bear while a second Red "krinches" another and two greens play wishbone with a thread. The more arrows and a spear at the Green who's getting his noms.

Under the circumstances, I don't think the term "first strike" even applies. The attacker may get initiative (and even that's disputable, given the bat kills) but beyond that it looks to be more a matter of speed and positioning.



If you look in the first frame of the comic you can see 6 woodsie bows and tarfu. If that's the case.... they MIGHT have lost one.
And in the last frame (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0064.html) prior to the charge, you see at least five Gumps, and a lot more then six Elves. We see only vignettes of the ensuing fight, so we don't know how many Gumps/Elves the Dwagons took out in the course of it.


Not meaning to pick on Grumbly here, but really, the business about "combat turns" needed to be said ;)

[Fuzzy_Juan]

The reason we see it from Wanda's mouth, not Ansom's is because the comic needed to show Parson learning this piece of information.

Wanda is completely correct. Ansom can't believe that the Tool is smarter than him, and he doesn't know about Parson. Therefore as far as Ansom is concerned it is impossible that he was outsmarted. It is impossible that this is a trap.

Therefore, there is only one explanation that Ansom can believe:
The wounded troops are in the center hex. They are wounded, and the Tool has veiled them in a desperate attempt to protect them from Ansom's troops. Now Ansom is rushing in to crush the wounded Warlords, he is thinking "Ha, your veil didn't fool me".


That's pretty much what I thought. He knows he can be shrewd, but not tactically brilliant. Hiding his troops in the obvious place seems just like Stanley...besides...Ansom is no more booped if he attacks the center hex than is he just ends turn where he is. If he is right, he gets the battle he was hoping for with a chance to blunt the head of the Dwagon incursion...if he is wrong, it confirms that Stanley actually did outmanuver him in a way that is beyond Stanley's capability as he sees it and puts him in no worse a situation than he was already in.

When you are cut off from reinforcement and within strike range of the entire nemy force and cannot get out no matter what...one wooded hex is as good as the next.

If he had the move to break through the 5-6 dwagons and rejoin the column I think he would...but I don't think that they have enough move to make that run...

Parson seems to want to capture someone instead of croaking Ansom. I agree with Parson, croaking Ansom is not priority...while it would take out leadership, it would not end the siege...the primary goal is the destruction of the units in the column down to a level that assaulting GK is impossible. With an emphasis on the siege. Now...there is one thing that would be even better if they could capture Ansom as opposed to kill him.

They could force him to disband the alliance...with most of the jetstone warlords away, the column would start to tear itself apart...and by capturing him they still get the Arkenpliers...if they can't force him...they can always just croak him and get a new uncroaked warlord to replace one that he kills.

[Tekraen]

Long time lurker, first time poster here. Not sure if it's spoiler material, so I'll try to edit and fix if it's such.

Given the events at Warchalking, would it be too big of a step to assume that if you croak the leadership at that particular battle, then the enemy forces retreat? A 'Headquarters Victory', if you will?

If so, it may explain why Ansom was willing to charge into that center hex, even if the units were veiled, as it would end the skirmish right there and the leaderless stacks would quite possibly return to base for further orders.

Secondly, we do know that stacks with leaders can decide not to initiate combat. If veiled, the bat wouldn't see the unit unless they attacked (and veiled leaderless stacks would, they're bound to by Erf rules). If there was a warlord, they could possibly let the scout pass. If other warlords had a 'detection radius' (a la Starcraft), they could possibly break the veil by charging into the hex. I think Ansom is fully convinced that leader stack has to be there, otherwise why would Stanley (not Parson, Stanley) guard that hex?

He's bought into the fallacy that X marks the spot, IMO.

[ErikZ]

The part I find interesting is that this is the second major setback that they've had fighting Stanley. This is the second time that they've had to face something clever/unusual and they still haven't come to the conclusion that Parson is doing it.

I'd be shocked if Jillian didn't tell Ansom and company about him.

[ChowGuy]

On second thought, it also may be possible to recruit a disgruntled captured warlord.

Well I'm pretty sure it possible for Wanda to "recruit" a croaked one, if she has a fresh body. Seeing as Uncroaked "have no will" of their own.


I'd be shocked if Jillian didn't tell Ansom and company about him.
As pointed out elsewhere, Jillian hasn't had a chance to tell Ansom yet, she was prevented from returning to or communicating with Ansom by Webinar. As to why she didn't tell him, aside from the fact that he doesn't trust her and probably never has, what she knows is hearsay at best. That sort of high-level intelligence would need to be evaluated by the entire warlord council. She could hardly tell the (distrustful) Webinar how she came into possession of it, as she's already had to lie about escaping through the tunnels. Ansom, for all we know, is fully aware of whatever previous dealings she's had with Wanda and would be in a better position to hear the full story.

[Gez]

Jillian and the archerons

What the boop are archerons? Are they archers from Acheron? :smallyuk:

[DCR]

The part I find interesting is that this is the second major setback that they've had fighting Stanley. This is the second time that they've had to face something clever/unusual and they still haven't come to the conclusion that Parson is doing it.

I'd be shocked if Jillian didn't tell Ansom and company about him.

Wanda's compulsion majik/faeri dust is prob'ly why Jill didn't say anything? Judging from how freely Wanda spoke, it's worked before... 'cause Wanda seems the type to never talk about personal issues unless she's absolutely certain it's safe.

And the first time Ansom and co. came up against Parson's strategies, they were working against a good news/bad news whiplash and an enormous loss of very important units. Hard to think when everything is going Kafka. I think they'll deduce new enemy brains after the sun goes down.

[Daedalus73]

If they can simply cloak their units then there was no point in Parson coming up with the dwagon fort in the first place.

Yes there was. To set the trap that will lead to croaking/capturing of Ansom and the Arkenpliers.

[SteveMB]

As pointed out elsewhere, Jillian hasn't had a chance to tell Ansom yet, she was prevented from returning to or communicating with Ansom by Webinar.
She was in possession of the hat from the time she encountered Webinar's group up until the frank and open discussion after she declared her intention to head back to the column. If she had (or thought she had) vital information for Ansom, she could have sent it then.

That said, it's possible that she doesn't consider the hat to be sufficiently secure for a message that must go to Ansom and nobody else. That would make sense if a message can be taken by anyone with physical access to the receiving hat.


As to why she didn't tell him, aside from the fact that he doesn't trust her and probably never has, what she knows is hearsay at best. That sort of high-level intelligence would need to be evaluated by the entire warlord council. She could hardly tell the (distrustful) Webinar how she came into possession of it, as she's already had to lie about escaping through the tunnels. Ansom, for all we know, is fully aware of whatever previous dealings she's had with Wanda and would be in a better position to hear the full story.

I doubt that anyone in the Coalition, Ansom included, knows anything beyond "Jillian has repeatedly been captured and escaped". Some of them are a bit suspicious of this pattern.

If Ansom knew about Jillian's dealings with Wanda, even in a highly distorted version of events, I don't see why he would tell her his plans (what does she need to know, really, beyond "we need you to cover us against dwagon raids"?). It also doesn't seem to make sense that he would express concern (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0008.html) about her being croaked or captured (if he knows that her captures are part of some covert op contact with Wanda, the former is unlikely and the latter is the whole point).


Wanda's compulsion majik/faeri dust is prob'ly why Jill didn't say anything? Judging from how freely Wanda spoke, it's worked before... 'cause Wanda seems the type to never talk about personal issues unless she's absolutely certain it's safe.

Or perhaps Wanda intends for Jillian to take this information home, for any of several possible reasons:

1. Disinformation: The discrepancy between Wanda's description of the spell to Stanley (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0005.html) during the sales pitch and to Jillian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0036.html) during their post-interrogation chat has been noted before.

2. Pretending to betray Stanley: Wanda may be head-gaming Jillian into believing that she's really on her side, feeding her useful intel to take home (after the regrettable necessity of extracting intel to satify Stanley). If so, the "escapes" might be staged to appear to be Wanda acting on her own account, slipping Jillian out past Stanley's guards.

3. Actually playing both sides of the game: Wanda may be laying the groundwork for saving her own skin if Gobwin Knob falls by pretending that she was helping Ansom's side all along.

[ChowGuy]

If Ansom knew about Jillian's dealings with Wanda, even in a highly distorted version of events, I don't see why he would tell her his plans (what does she need to know, really, beyond "we need you to cover us against dwagon raids"?). It also doesn't seem to make sense that he would express concern (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0008.html) about her being croaked or captured (if he knows that her captures are part of some covert op contact with Wanda, the former is unlikely and the latter is the whole point).
It's clear that they've met before and had "dealings" but it's less clear when or what those dealings were. I've already offer up the opinion that Jillian and Wanda were at one time on the same team, probably before Stanley wiped out the Croatan tribe and, willingly or not, Wanda came into his camp. If so, Ansom ought to know of that, but given even Vinny "don't know what he did to Zamussels" the others need not.

As for sharing his plans and his concern, even if he knows there is or may still be something going privately between the two, he could be A) using Jillian to feed disinformation to Stanley, and B) fully aware that a double-agent's life is fraught with peril. It seemed to be entirely her choice to expose herself anyway. She's just the sort that would like to "play spy" and Stanley was not happy about the idea of releasing her, nor was Parson, but did so only because that was the only way they thought the "trap" could be made to work.

[tainsouvra]

Here's an interesting thought I just had that would explain Ansom's actions: he think Stanley's an idiot (rightfully so). Protecting his assets is well within what Ansom perceives as Stanley's capabilities, but tactical trickery like this is beyond him.

However, something as bluntly useless as veiling wounded units in the middle of a giant, unveiled ring of dwagons is something that, in his mindset, Stanley is certainly incompetent enough to try at.

That's why he was dead certain the wounded units were right there in the middle of the fort.

"Of course! They're veiled! Only Stanley would be stupid enough to do that! Attack!" I concur. In fact, I've only seen two other possibilities championed, and neither is very appealing:

1) Ansom plans to punch through.
...he doesn't have enough movement to do that right now, unless we're going to see a deus ex machina solution (bleh).

2) Ansom realizes Stanley isn't in charge, looked deeper at the strategy, and is going to use a weakness Parson didn't know about in order to even the odds.
...why exactly would Ansom realize he's facing a new opponent who is able to use nested tricks on him, then immediately make another action that is in all probability part of the trickery? Ansom can't know Parson is from another universe entirely, at this point, which means all he could know is that he's facing a shrewd tactician.

-----

On a different subject entirely, I've noticed a lot of talk about Stanley getting and using the Arkenpliers. That doesn't seem appropriate for that artifact. Stanley uses brute force to accomplish his goals. He attunes to a hammer, a fitting tool, and gets units with lots of raw power from it (dwagon swarm). Who would attune to a tool used for gripping and with a demonstrated interaction with the uncroaked?
...and won't it be dramatic when Stanley isn't the sole carrier of an attuned Arkentool?

I'm thinking Wanda, personally. An argument can be made for Parson, but it's not as complete. Sizemore has the appeal of being really unexpected, but I don't believe it's the appropriate tool for his character, something more like an Arkentrowel makes more sense.

[tainsouvra]

here is something I don't understand - Apparently, Ansom is boobed by now. But why wouldn't this have been the case if it wasn't a trap and the nest really was there?

Sure Tool's forces would have taken some heavy losses from it, but surely the fort formation of dwagons would have boobed Ansom at the next turn anyway? No, they wouldn't have. Turn-based combat is very finicky about power imbalances, a small offensive advantage during an attack translates to a very large imbalance in the number of casualties.

Had the wounded dwagons and uncroaked warlords been in the center hex, Ansom would be a moment away from victory right now.

This isn't RTS, this isn't real life...it's turn-based combat. The rules are different.

[ChowGuy]

...why exactly would Ansom realize he's facing a new opponent who is able to use nested tricks on him, then immediately make another action that is in all probability part of the trickery?
Perhaps because he still doesn't, yet. He says that such a thing is "beyond him" but when Vinny says "it looks like a pretty shrewd trick he replies "Yes. (pause) It does. (pause) Yes it does!" I read that last part as it looks lile a shrewd trick, but since I know Stanley's not that shrewd, looks must be deceiving. The enemy really is in there!" That was Wanda's take as well, even without seeing the conversation.

[jindra34]

On the subject of why Ansom charged into the middle of a death trap:
I believe this is because he is just grasping for straws. He is panicing and trying to get something done that might allow him to survive.

[SteveMB]

On the subject of why Ansom charged into the middle of a death trap:
I believe this is because he is just grasping for straws. He is panicing and trying to get something done that might allow him to survive.

I don't know about "panicking", but definitely grasping at straws. Denial ain't a river in Egypt....

[ChowGuy]

(remember, Parson doesn't know he can veil units in that frame).

To be honest, we don't know that Parson/Stanley can veil units either. While his question may only be rhetorical, Wanda still hasn't answered it. All she's said is that Ansom would rather believe they [could] have done so.

Parson's reaction is actually more interesting. It's not the "Woo Hoo" of his first accidental discovery (that Ansom had no table), nor is it simply dumbfounded. His body language, and particularly the little lines around his head, is more typical of comic convention for an "Oh Noes!" but I can't think what problem he sees in the concept.

[grumbleboom]

Basically as stated before, there are MANY things about the combat system that we just don't know. We can assume that things are turn based, or we can assume that things happen at the same time, or we can assume that warlords get first hits... different battles in the comic point to different answers.

As for Ansom, he's definately grasping at straws and trying to salvage this turn.

[tainsouvra]

It's taking for one thing the assumption that combat proceeds in turns, when in fact we've seen nothing to confirm that, or even indicate it. To the contrary, from just about every instance of combat we've it appears that once initiatied it proceeds in real-time, with both sides acting simultaneously. Have you seen both sides inflicting damage in the same panel? I only recall seeing one side attack at a time, with the other side usually attacking in the following panel. Presentation seems turn-based, I've seen no indication at all that combat is real-time. You're seeing preparation and positioning with the panels you mentioned, but the actual inflict-and-receive damage never seems to happen simultaneously. Damage has consistently been presented as a back-and-forth rather than real-time.

Also, if realtime existed in combat, it probably wouldn't have needed to be defined. It was an inconceivable (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0029.html) design to Stanley.


Perhaps because he still doesn't, yet. He says that such a thing is "beyond him" but when Vinny says "it looks like a pretty shrewd trick he replies "Yes. (pause) It does. (pause) Yes it does!" I read that last part as it looks lile a shrewd trick, but since I know Stanley's not that shrewd, looks must be deceiving. The enemy really is in there!" That was Wanda's take as well, even without seeing the conversation. I agree completely. I don't think #1 or #2 of the "other possibilities" I gave is particularly viable.

[sihnfahl]

To be honest, we don't know that Parson/Stanley can veil units either. While his question may only be rhetorical, Wanda still hasn't answered it. All she's said is that Ansom would rather believe they [could] have done so.
Given the past history of 'revelations' to Parson, it's probably safe to assume that they're capable of veiling units. The point still stands - the possibility of veiling units was completely unknown to Parson and didn't factor into his tactics.


Parson's reaction is actually more interesting. It's not the "Woo Hoo" of his first accidental discovery (that Ansom had no table), nor is it simply dumbfounded. His body language, and particularly the little lines around his head, is more typical of comic convention for an "Oh Noes!" but I can't think what problem he sees in the concept.
Not a problem, just a missed opportunity. If he knew he could veil the wounded dwagons and warlords, he could have used different tactics. Like using all the dwagons to decimate the siege on the first pass, find a safe place to park them, then veil them to protect them even from scouts. And, on next turn, use the full force to hit the column again and return to GK.

His current tactic ran on the assumption that the dwagons could and would be found. Hence, the initial fort to protect the low-move and low health dwagons when he thought Ansom had a similar setup as him, then the updated fort to draw away counterattackers when he realized Ansom has to use scouts...

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Have you seen both sides inflicting damage in the same panel? I only recall seeing one side attack at a time, with the other side usually attacking in the following panel. Presentation seems turn-based, I've seen no indication at all that combat is real-time. You're seeing preparation and positioning with the panels you mentioned, but the actual inflict-and-receive damage never seems to happen simultaneously. Damage has consistently been presented as a back-and-forth rather than real-time.

Also, if realtime existed in combat, it probably wouldn't have needed to be defined. It was an inconceivable (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0029.html) design to Stanley.

Note the battle with the Heavies against the Spidew troops. They were getting and giving at the same time. Note the Elves charging the dwagons...they were attempting to attack when they were killed. Note the dwagon assault against the marbits and how the archers were shooting the dwagons the entire time they were killing troops.

It may not be 100% 'realtime' as we know it, but it is obvious that it is not exactly a turn based combat system. There was some element of free style and formations, initiative...could be alot of things.

Of course...even if 'turns' are taken in turn, if combat is realtimeish...there are exploits in that too depending on special abilities, range and that sort of thing.

Take MechCommander 2. A buddy of mine found a great tactical 'bug'. Certian long range weapons have a knockback effect...these units could be stacked in such a way that the enemy gets peppered with long range fire and then gets knocked back repeatedly and cannot advance or get stationary to fire. In essence, a small squad of mechs equipped correctly could stand indefinately against an endless swarm of enemy mechs as long as they didn't have jump capability or came in too great numbers, or had extreme range weapons like artillary or Gauss rifles.

Parson could eventually find a battle tactic that does something similar such that a single stack in a hex could through a mix of special abilities hold a pass against an unlimited number of enemies given the correct circumstances...and since they can see everything, they could know if they are bringing anything that could pose a problem.

One thing that would make me smile is if non-combat structures couldn't be attacked...things like wells, or even a toll booth couldn't be captured or destroyed and also could not be bypassed...If that was true, I would laught so damn hard if Parson pulled a Blazing Saddles and stuck a toll booth on the only road into Gobwin knob and charged a few shmuckers for each unit that passed...

"Someone has gotta run back to Spacerock and get a boopload of dimes!" :smallbiggrin:

[Doug Lampert]

I'm thinking that since there is no need for Ansom to preserve his units (if there arn't a bunch of dragons in that hex) he might as well just blaze his way through the other side of the dragon circle and fight his way back to the column.

He PROBABLY doesn't have the move.

They used "about all" their move to get to the center. So they probably have some left (else why the about). But straight through to the Column is 4 move from the 3 Dragon Hex, and back arround to the Column is 5 move from the 3 Dragon Hex.

Parson though Ansom entering the center was nice but not vital, so at 3 Dragon Hex his stack probably had 2-4 move left (enough that entering the center isn't QUITE out, but not enough to get back no matter what) and thus he now has 1-3 left.

He can only reach the Column if he has 3 move left. Possible but unlikely. OTOH he can almost certainly kill another dragon stack NOW while they are relatively isolated and don't have bonuses from the uncroaked warlords or from being in a max stack.

There's also the question of whether Ansom or Vinnie may have more move available than the stack, but that's unknown and depends on way too much. (Like can a unit move with a stack but retain a higher remaining move than the stack?)

[ChowGuy]

Have you seen both sides inflicting damage in the same panel?
Yes, and I was careful to point out specific instances. Of course if you don't think having your arm ripped off while bring down a rock, or being stabbed while nomming counts as "both sides inflicting damage" that's OK. And those arrows aren't just "setting up" they were already in flight. Now maybe you think the arm, and the arrows, have "stop action" while the other guy moves, but that's taking the idea of "turns" to extremes.

[dither]

6 Turns Later...

Heh, I thought of something that made me laugh. Given the tendency of the forum members here to talk each and every strategy to death, I think it'd be a hoot if that second-to-last panel was the last we ever saw of Ansom alive, and the story simply cuts to days later as Parson is discussing his plan to conquer the rest of whatever continent they are on... while the Tool is busy fiddling around with the Arkenpliers and casually ignoring Parson.

... mwah hah hah...

[Doug Lampert]

here is something I don't understand - Apparently, Ansom is boobed by now. But why wouldn't this have been the case if it wasn't a trap and the nest really was there?

Sure Tool's forces would have taken some heavy losses from it, but surely the fort formation of dwagons would have boobed Ansom at the next turn anyway?

What changes the equation from Ansom's perspective to have made him think he would escape alive being surrounded when going in to hit the wounded stacks in the centre to all of the sudden being boobed when they aren't there?If he'd hit them he'd have killed 19 Dragons and 3 Warlords, all low on hits already so he'd probably get them cheap. Now he won't hit then, all of those units COMPLETELY heal at the start of Stanley's next turn.

He'll be facing about twice the force he expected to have to survive. Personally I expect Parson to try to get the Tool to IGNORE Ansom and go after the column again.

I'm with

Yeah, Parson/Stanley are only outnumbered 24.8 to 1, rather than 25 to 1! They might as well start partying now! Why, the enemy faction is even about to lose its competent and astute leader! Huzzah!?That's why they need to kill ALL the siege next turn while they have the chance. Kill Ansom and it only really helps if that causes the enemy alliance to break up, and why should it? Ansom's just a warlord, he serves King Slately who will still be fine no matter what happens here.

A big fiasco MIGHT break the alliance, but killing their field commander is unlikely to be a big ENOUGH fiasco if everyone actually has cause to hate Stanly.

[dither]

A big fiasco MIGHT break the alliance, but killing their field commander is unlikely to be a big ENOUGH fiasco if everyone actually has cause to hate Stanly.

w00t. Seconded.

[grumbleboom]

however.... Note that Jilian has already dealt with her dragon when we see the orlies getting WTFBBQed. Note also that Webinar tells his troops (who have ranged attacks) to "hold fast." Thus allowing the spidews to close. Then in 63 the elves attack then the dwagons.

At no time so far have we seen a warlord being attacked at the same time that he/she is getting his/her hits in. That includes the Dwagon attack on the column. Every single dwagon getting shot doesn't have the band around its neck signifying a rider. Even in the very last panel the only (i know there are only 3 shown) dwagon Without arrows in its hide is the lead dwagon with a rider.

The only visible hit on a dwagon with a rider is the first shot by the archers which hits Leroy's. And that was while he was flying over.

[tainsouvra]

Note the battle with the Heavies against the Spidew troops. They were getting and giving at the same time. No, they weren't.

Panels:
1 - noncombat.
2 - noncombat.
3 - spidews move.
4 - bears attack with rocks. Spidew makes a noise but does not attack.
5 - spidew bites.
6 - bears attack with rocks, one dies during his attack.
7 - giraffe attacks with face.
8 - leader and mount attack.
9 - leader speech, possibly attack.
10 - noncombat.
11 - noncombat.
12 - noncombat.

The only panel that even remotely comes close is #6, in which the bear dies while attacking (but not being attacked). However, given that spidews are known to have a poison attack, and that bear had been bitten by a spidew in the previous panel, and most games of this time have poison tick on the victim's move, this is very likely to be a trivial observation.


Note the dwagon assault against the marbits and how the archers were shooting the dwagons the entire time they were killing troops. It's a nice visual, but you may note that no dwagon is damaged while dealing damage. There are just arrows hanging in the air, which is not unlike other turn-based games I've played in which the act of firing occurs on your turn, and its damage is determined, but the animation of the arrow's flight will continue as the next unit acts. In other words, it's a nice visual/artwork but does not reflect on the actual mechanic involved.


While it is possible that combat is realtime, we have seen no evidence of it occurring and some evidence that it does not occur. I'm siding with Occam until we get a sign that it does occur.

[Airshark]

There's a simple proof of that; Ansom was able to move into the middle hex after defeating one of the outer hexes; if adjacent hexes were in combat, he'd have to clear three outer hexes to get into the center.

Simpler proof: the bat couldn't have reached the rear hex to scout it without passing adjacent to one of the fortress stacks or the unfound dwagon stack on the lake.

Combat is within the same hex, only. Further, so is spotting.

[ChowGuy]

Even in the very last panel the only (i know there are only 3 shown) dwagon Without arrows in its hide is the lead dwagon with a rider.

Hey, if I were a warlord riding a Dwagon, I'd try to keep out of the line of fire too. Especially if I was Manpower, because, well, you know what happened last time he got careless.

[tainsouvra]

Yes, and I was careful to point out specific instances. I was careful to look at each individual panel of those instances, and disagree with your assessment.
Of course if you don't think having your arm ripped off while bring down a rock, This did not occur in the same panel, but rather over 4-6 of that page.
or being stabbed while nomming The bite attack had already occurred, thus the marbits being in the dwagon's mouth when the remaining marbits acted. This is very easily still within a turn-based combat model.

If the characters do not know what realtime action is, but only turn-based action...and the comic does not present actual attacks being resolved simultaneously...I do not see the clear evidence that you claim.

[Airshark]

Croaking the warlords doesn't necessarily end the seige. Capturing the warlords and ransoming them back for peace and schmuckers, on the other hand...

On second thought, it also may be possible to recruit a disgruntled captured warlord.

It's certainly possible to croak and uncroak a captured warlord. I doubt the siege will be over with Ansom's death/capture, but it could go a long way towards evening the odds if Ansom replaces Manpower as Parson's top uncroaked warlord. Particularly if the Macguffin that turns them to dust (the Arkenpliers) is in Stanley's possession.

Has anybody thought about what the pliers might do if Stanley can be attuned to them? The Hammer controls dwagons. Maybe the pliers give immediate control of all undead when they're attuned.

[JazzManJim]

I am now well and truly confused.

I have no earthly idea why Ansom charged everyone into the center hex. It doesn't make sense at all.

I have no clue why the news of veiling seems to boggle Parson to the extent it does. It could mean that he realizes that he has an even more powerful tactical tool at his disposal but he seems more frustrated or shocked than the news would warrant.

I don't even have a decent guess about what could be coming next.

Nice job, Rob and Jamie. :)

[tainsouvra]

I have no earthly idea why Ansom charged everyone into the center hex. It doesn't make sense at all. He believes Stanley went through the trouble of putting a circle of dwagons around a hex in which he veiled his wounded troops...something that would seem like a shrewd move to Stanley, but actually be kind of stupid.


I have no clue why the news of veiling seems to boggle Parson to the extent it does. He was up all night coming up with a plan and, with one sentence about veiling, found out there was probably a far easier way of doing it. It's akin to climbing a rock face only to find there was an escalator on the other side.

[I eat Jawas]

I wonder if Ansom's army can veil themselves, even from the lookamancers? If so, could it be that Ansom has veiled himself to escape (likely Vinny's idea) whilst sending some troops in as a diversion/suicidem mission?

[ChowGuy]

I was careful to look at each individual panel of those instances, and disagree with your assessment. This did not occur in the same panel, but rather over 4-6 of that page.

And in those panels 4-6, the rock moves from a position in both hands and well behind the Bear's head (4), to a position in one hand abreast of his head (5) as stitches are popping, to a position impacting the Spidew (6) while the arm continues to detach. That's not "turns" that's "freeze frame" action. If Jamie were to show a panel with two characters lunging, followed by a panel with two charatcters with each other's swords through their chest, you'd still say "we don't know who hit first."

*ponders* But I think the only thing some people will to accept as definitive proof is if the strip is done in full-motion video, which isn't likely to happen.

[Ubiq]

Ansom's problem isn't so much that he thinks Stanley is stupid; it's that he thinks Stanley is a stupid, deceitful peasant. I think he could come around to the fact that he was tricked if Stanley was just some stupid, rebellious noble (even a blind squirrel can find an acorn sometimes), but the way the Tool rose to power should incline Ansom to think that any odd situation must not be as it appears.

Ansom just doesn't see Stanley as a worthy adversary, so faced with the options that he was either completely outsmarted by such a foe or Stanley was hiding his forces, Ansom went with the choice that made the most sense to him.

As it happens, it's the worst thing he could do. Sure, he can alert his forces to the problem at hand, but the column column is largely useless to him at this point. Most of the forces he can bring in from the main column won't be able to attack the dwagons in this terrain. Those that can will leave the main column even more vulnerable next turn. He'll have to send a message through Charlie to bring in air support, but he might have to do that by having Vinnie send a message to the column to send a message to Charlie to send a message to his Archons. The more steps there are to an action and the more people involved, the bigger the chance that somebody'll boop it up. That and we don't know much longer Ansom can act either.

He can try to bash his way out, but that might take up all of his remaining move and his losses breaking through the hex would leave whatever units that survive vulnerable to the dwagons nearby. Fleeing towards the main column won't do him any good if Stanley's dwagons can catch his units before they get there.

Ansom can always leave everybody else in the lurch and run for it, but we don't know how much move he has left. Besides that, leaving Vinnie behind would be a critical error on his part as he loses what is obviously an irreplacable tactical and strategic asset in the Count and his bats. On top of all that, throwing the Woodsy Elves under the wheel to enable his own escape might well fragment the Jetstone Alliance if the other elves find out what he has done.

Ultimately, the single worst thing Ansom has done is put himself in position to be captured. That not only deprives the Alliance of its leader along a valuable portion of its fighting force (losing that many archers is going to hurt) and one of its best strategists, but it also gives the Tool a valuable bargaining chip. Just how attached is the King to this Prince? Enough to ransom him for one of the Tool's lost eleven cities? Perhaps more than that? Another allied city between Jetstone's capital and Gobwin Knob is a nice buffer zone for any future conflict.

If Jetstone refuses, big deal. Croak Ansom, uncroak him, and you have a new Uncroaked Warlord while King Slately looks bad in the bargain for being unwilling to listen to reason.

[spite48]

I'm thinking that the foolamancer is probably -currently- unable to veil units because of the link set-up, but Ansom doesn't know that, and as far as Ansom knows, Stanley does have a foolamancer with that ability.



I expect that towards the end of the chapter, Parson will want to break the link to use the foolamancer's veil ability, and we'll get to know Misty better. Stanley will be outraged of course, but winning the war is Parson's objective.

[tainsouvra]

And in those panels 4-6, the rock moves from a position in both hands and well behind the Bear's head (4), to a position in one hand abreast of his head (5) as stitches are popping, to a position impacting the Spidew (6) while the arm continues to detach. That's not "turns" that's "freeze frame" action. Yes, it is not turns, it is breaking down a portion of combat into separate actions taken by each participant.

...


If Jamie were to show a panel with two characters lunging, followed by a panel with two charatcters with each other's swords through their chest, you'd still say "we don't know who hit first." 1) No I wouldn't. You are assuming that I came to my conclusions and am impervious to any evidence, rather than having evidence of my own and finding a flaw in your conclusions, which I do not appreciate. It is rude and unnecessary.

2) You are assuming that can occur and that it would be done within the mechanics instead of purely plot-overcomes-any-rules reasons. I do not agree with your basis for that assumption.


*ponders* But I think the only thing some people will to accept as definitive proof is if the strip is done in full-motion video, which isn't likely to happen. Is there anything you would accept as definitive proof that combat does occur with a turn-based element, or is that not likely to happen either? At least hold yourself to the same standard as those you argue with, please.

[jindra34]

2) You are assuming that can occur and that it would be done within the mechanics instead of purely plot-overcomes-any-rules reasons. I do not agree with your basis for that assumption.

except Pclips (the writer) has stated that they have all the rules and made sure every event in the comic fit the rules.

[tainsouvra]

except Pclips (the writer) has stated that they have all the rules and made sure every event in the comic fit the rules. However, as we do not have those rules and can only interpret them from the comic, I reiterate...

He is assuming that can occur.

[ChowGuy]

Is there anything you would accept as definitive proof that combat does occur with a turn-based element, or is that not likely to happen either?
Yes. I I see a sequence of frames in which one unit (either side) remainss stock still while a unit from the other side moves to it (1), then strikes (2). Show me such a sequence.


By the way, as something of a side-bar:
If the characters do not know what realtime action is,...
Stanley only asks Parson "And 'realtime' would mean? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0029.html)" That only indicates the word is unfamiliar to him.

As for his finding the notion "Inconceivable" that's with respect to his question "When do you make plans? When do your units heal and disband?" Those are actions that take place in the strategic turns, not in combat, so the idea that combat is simultaneous and continuous is not what he's addressing.

Edit to Add:

No I wouldn't. You are assuming that I came to my conclusions and am impervious to any evidence
Sorry, I meant to edit that say "You could say rather then "you would say, but as you may have noticed, my posts tend to be interrupted abd sporadic. I'm in "Real Time" here and only post when I have a break ;)

[DavidByron]

Do you know where he said that?


except Pclips (the writer) has stated that they have all the rules and made sure every event in the comic fit the rules.

It seems like that would be pretty hard to do.

[tainsouvra]

Yes. I I see a sequence of frames in which one unit (either side) remainss stock still while a unit from the other side moves to it, then strikes. Show me such a sequence. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0063.html
Elves move then shoot, Dwagons watch the arrows approach from within the trees but do not act.
Dwagons swoop down and attack, Elves take casualties and look concerned but do not act.
Elves prepare to attack again, Dwagons do not act.

One unit remained still while the other moved to it and struck.
After the attackers finished, the defenders counterattacked while the attackers remained still.
After the defenders counterattacked, the attackers prepared to attack again.
This is precisely what you asked me for, and then some.

As a sidebar, I'm not sure why that is what would convince you, as this is not the way that all turn-based combat necessarily occurs. Some of your actions may take place on your opponent's turn, but it's still not your turn. Think D&D (given this site, I'm guessing most readers are at least familiar with it, let me know if you aren't and I'll get a better example). That's a popular turn-based-combat game in which each person's main actions occur on their turn, and some actions occur on your opponents turn, but the way we're intended to visualize it is as a flowing combat scene...yet things are still resolved one dieroll at a time, in a predetermined order.

[Leewei]

It's certainly possible to croak and uncroak a captured warlord. I doubt the siege will be over with Ansom's death/capture, but it could go a long way towards evening the odds if Ansom replaces Manpower as Parson's top uncroaked warlord. Particularly if the Macguffin that turns them to dust (the Arkenpliers) is in Stanley's possession.

I think I should have written something else earlier: I'm attempting to crawl into Parson's head regarding his half-spoken suggestion to Tool Stanley.

Parson is apparently optimizing to win the war with the best outcome for Stanley. Ideally, he wins the fight without further losses. This means accepting a surrender of the enemy warlords, assuming such a thing is possible with the world's mechanics.

Attacking and uncroaking them would be less optimal for a few reasons:

1. Casualties received in battle.
2. Uncroaked warlords eventually just fall apart.
3. Captive warlords can likely order their troops to disperse or return home.
4. Captive warlords are likely worth a fair amount of schmuckers to their faction's leader.

Croaking the warlords might be necessary if they refuse or are incapable of surrender, however it looks like live captives are by far the better option.

[ChowGuy]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0063.html

Good, but not entirely definitive.

Elves move then shoot, Dwagons watch the arrows approach from within the trees but do not act.
Elves rush in. There is some sort of blurred motion effect behind the, perhaps this is the "invisible wall" others postulate, perhaps just artistic licence. Either way I take it as the entry to the hex.

Elves shoot. Arrows miss Dwagons. Well and good, but there's no confirmation that the Dwagons are hanging there motionless rate=her then being inbound, since we do not see where they are just before the shot is taken. Elves would be foolish indeed to not fire as soon as their targets are in range, no matter which one is moving.


Dwagons swoop down and attack, Elves take casualties and look concerned but do not act.
Dwagons attack as many units as they can. Elves having fired, must reload so cannot act again within the same time frame.

The penultimate strip, with the two surviving Elves exchanging glances, then charging, I put dow to dramatic effect. The Elves giving each other a "We are so *booped* look while the (off camera) Dwagons 'Taunt' them to "Come and get it, Suckas." But I'll admit that's subject to interpretation.


I'm not sure why that is what would convince you, as this is not the way that all turn-based combat necessarily occurs.
It does not convince me that it is not turn-based, it only serves to demonstrate the panels in question do not prove that it is.


That's a popular turn-based-combat game in which each person's main actions occur on their turn, and some actions occur on your opponents turn, but the way we're intended to visualize it is as a flowing combat scene...yet things are still resolved one dieroll at a time, in a predetermined order.
And there's the rub. In the popular turn-based game (simulation) you refer to, some entity is moderating those turns. They take place in steps, albeit on a fine time scale, because that's the only way the entity in question can reasonably manage the physics. In Erfworld, who does the management? And why?

In computer based [RTS] combat, actions still take place in discrete steps due to the sequential nature of the moderator (game engine) but the time scale is so discrete that the divisions are impercepitible, certainly much finer then they may be in the overworld, which can be Turn-based within the same game.

Or, even in live/board games, the entire combat may take place "instantaneously" with only the results calculated/looked up and announced/displayed. That's usually refered to as "auto-combat" and may even a good model for leaderless stack action, where Mathamancy/Luckamancy can shift the calculated outcome. But in RP's in particular like D&D, it's considered boring. I suggest it would be equally boring to have the same occur in a comic, so we won't see that. What we can see though may be the "really really small" steps that are functionally indistinguishable from continuous.

The real question of course is are thos steps also simulataneous for multiple units, I think they are. Others disagree.

Unless Pclips decides to post here, or gives us a Klog (which we really need for a lot of things) that situation is unlikely to change.

[TheTurnipKing]

Wanda is completely correct. Ansom can't believe that the Tool is smarter than him, and he doesn't know about Parson. Therefore as far as Ansom is concerned it is impossible that he was outsmarted. It is impossible that this is a trap.
Surely the bat would have found them?

Damn, we need to know how "veiling" works, and soon.

[Scientivore]

Note: Wanda doesn't say that they can cast a veil spell. She says Ansom thinks they can. Why? Because he knows they have a foolamancer. But that's not really true. They don't have a foolamancer any more. They have the eyemancer trio [emphasis added]. In the same way they may not be able to use their thinkamancer to send thinkagrams.

Oh! Trimancer cuts out two syllables and six letters of Triniteyemancer while keeping the meaning of three and remaining a perfect rhyme for Eyemancer. It's too bad that Treyemancer looks like tray-eh-mancer; it would've been nice to keep the eye spelling too.

Yes. Trimancer. Excellent.


Long time lurker, first time poster here.

Wecome! :smallsmile:


Simpler proof: the bat couldn't have reached the rear hex to scout it without passing adjacent to one of the fortress stacks or the unfound dwagon stack on the lake.

Combat is within the same hex, only. Further, so is spotting.

I think it's likely that zero hex spotting range is a special feature of the "heavy forest" terrain that they're in.


[snip] He was up all night coming up with a plan and, with one sentence about veiling, found out there was probably a far easier way of doing it. It's akin to climbing a rock face only to find there was an escalator on the other side.

Heh. Ever read Fuzzy Knights: LARP (http://www.kenzerco.com/images/periodicals/LARP/phpslideshow.php)?

[Airshark]

I think it's likely that zero hex spotting range is a special feature of the "heavy forest" terrain that they're in.


Don't think so. Reason - they passed close to a couple of hexes that were not heavy forest, in particular, the lake; and the fog of war remained over them.

[PePe QuiCoSE]

so beyond going in the middle and somehow getting veiled (highly improbable IMO, that veil thing will probably come up later in the as a surprise factor), Ansom being fooled that there are veiled units in the hex and the possibility that Ansom will charge all his way into the column (or simply choose not to fight the dwagons, getting the least amount of possible hits), has anyone else thought of something?
I have not read the full 7 pages but haven't seen so far anything plausible other than those (i'm with run his way to the column after he is sure the center is empty, through the dwagons and sucking up damage, leaving behind units that haven't got enough move to reach).

[Scientivore]

Regarding the timing of combat: because of the nature of the medium, I don't think that it's possible for us to determine it without simply being told.

A distant picture will tend to show lots of things happening at the same time, whether or not the units' maneuvers and attacks are resolved simultaneously. A close-up will isolate a single action from other things that are happening at the same time. Sequential art must cut time into slices even if it's depicting continuous events.

Finally, since it's a story about a game-like world, the presentation won't just be a literal, lock-step depiction of Erf physics. For example, before we learned through Parson that turns are not simultaneous, we were shown Jillian taking off to scout right after we saw her going to bed. Now we know that it was a time jump in the Alliance narrative to catch up with the GK timeline, presumably because of Wanda's unshown flight to Warchalking. Jillian's arrival at Ansom's tent had apparently taken place before Wanda returned to GK and proposed the Perfect Warlord spell to Stanley; the next day, Jillian probably left to scout around noon. However, we had no way of knowing those things for sure until much later.

On the continuum between real-time, phased initiative and turn-based tactical combat systems, I think that Erfworld uses something like phased initiative. However, that also seems to be the closest to the inherent nature of the medium. So, it could just be a coincidence that I got that impression.


Don't think so. Reason - they passed close to a couple of hexes that were not heavy forest, in particular, the lake; and the fog of war remained over them.

I was thinking that scouting range would be determined by both the hex that you're in and the hex that you're looking into, whichever is less.

[iabervon]

I think it's possible that Ansom has enough move to get back to the column directly, if the dwagons weren't in the way; it's unlikely (from Parson's comments to Stanley) that Ansom has enough move to get to cover the safe way, but he might have enough to go straight. And he might be able to charge into the 6-dwagon hex, take a bunch of damage, and retreat out the other side back to the column (recording a loss, of course). If he survives the flight, he can get to his healers and get healed and have enough cover in the column to fend off a huge stack of dwagons (or make croaking him prohibitively expensive for Stanley). I'm not sure if it matters if he leaves the rest of the strike force in the center; the rest of the force is probably not as high-value a target as the rest of the siege.

Now, I don't think that's what he thought of in the middle of page 61, because he wouldn't be pausing in the center hex if he intended to charge straight through. But he hasn't ended the turn, and he (or Vinny) could still think to try, and it might even work.

[Zeku]

I'm not really seeing how being aware of veiling would have improved Stanley's battle plan this turn.

Assuming it's a cloak that can be detected through magic, or has sharply limited use, then the dwagon platter would not have been implemented, and Ansom would not currently be trapped.

The most obvious application of veiling will be Parson visiting the enemy camp, where he will meet Vinny (as a level 2 unit.)

[DCR]

Don't think so. Reason - they passed close to a couple of hexes that were not heavy forest, in particular, the lake; and the fog of war remained over them.

Oo! Oo! Everybody else prob'ly thought of this already, that's why I didn't see it posted, but does the fogbank roll back in fresh and new every day? Yes? Thought so! Lookmancer and a Lookmancer backup would be the first and second things on my 'to get' list if I was The Cheese, 'cause trying to rediscover the map everysingleday is cause for ...something. Can't think of anything witty and relevant right now. Lookmancers better be rare like original and well-done h'wood movies, or Ansom (and Jetstone? not sure who, exactly is in charge of this sort of thing) deserves disbanding.

[SirEdward]

Yesterday I decided to call them "the Triniteyemancer". I felt that they needed a more graceful singular name.

Trinity would actually imply the inverse of the eyeamancers. They are three beings forming one person, as opposed to the coining of the word "trinity" being three persons and one being.

I think that the closest name I can think of is a troika-mancer.

troi·ka –noun
1. a Russian carriage, wagon, or sleigh drawn by a team of three horses abreast.
2. a team of three horses driven abreast.
3. any group of three persons, nations, etc., acting equally in unison to exert influence, control, or the like.
[Origin: 1835–45; < Russ tróĭka threesome, troika, deriv. of tróe three (collective), akin to tri three]

It's better than say a triumvirmancer or perhaps more appropriately, a triamuliemancer...

Okay, now I'm really scaring myself.

[Edit for spelling and emphasis]

[Airshark]

I was thinking that scouting range would be determined by both the hex that you're in and the hex that you're looking into, whichever is less.

Unlikely. Reason - that would imply that you knew the terrain type you were looking into. And we have evidence that this isn't the case - chief among which is taht Ansom didn't know that the lake existed.

[innovan]

Veiling is definitely not following Chekhovs' script writing rule. :smallwink:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun

I wonder if Foolamancers also have the ability to create mirages. So, say, a crapgolem might appear to be a big hex of wounded dragons...

[Ubiq]

Seeing as how they have hoods and all, I think I'll call the linked trio The Living Tribunal.


I'm not really seeing how being aware of veiling would have improved Stanley's battle plan this turn.

Assuming it's a cloak that can be detected through magic, or has sharply limited use, then the dwagon platter would not have been implemented, and Ansom would not currently be trapped.


About the only real advantage it would have where this plan is concerned that I can see would be additional protection for the wounded dwagons over the lake hex. That way, a bat might not accidentally find them and leave them vulnerable to an aerial assault.

On the other hand, it's a major strategic advantage that Ansom apparently doesn't have access to so it's something that Parson would want to know for future reference.

[jindra34]

About the only real advantage it would have where this plan is concerned that I can see would be additional protection for the wounded dwagons over the lake hex. That way, a bat might not accidentally find them and leave them vulnerable to an aerial assault.

On the other hand, it's a major strategic advantage that Ansom apparently doesn't have access to so it's something that Parson would want to know for future reference.

The advantage would come into play in putting a mega stack on the 'weak hex' and having it meat grind Ansom right there.

[Scientivore]

Unlikely. Reason - that would imply that you knew the terrain type you were looking into. And we have evidence that this isn't the case - chief among which is taht Ansom didn't know that the lake existed.

1. If it's the lesser of the two and you're on a terrain type with zero spotting range, there's no need to know what terrain any of the neighboring hexes are to know that you can't see into them.

2. On the 1200x834 (873 KB) (http://www.partiallyclips.com/erfworld/blowups/BLOWUP_ansommap_1200.jpg) version of the map, the nearest lake hex was only partially fogged. It looks like they could tell what its terrain was, just not what was in it. That...appears to violate both of our takes on it.

[Ubiq]

The advantage would come into play in putting a mega stack on the 'weak hex' and having it meat grind Ansom right there.

The downside there is that such a tactic might wind up killing Ansom and I don't think Parson really wants to do that just yet. He's far more valuable as a live bargaining chip than he is as an uncroaked warlord.

[SteveMB]

The downside there is that such a tactic might wind up killing Ansom and I don't think Parson really wants to do that just yet. He's far more valuable as a live bargaining chip than he is as an uncroaked warlord.

The obvious interpretation of Parson's interrupted comment was a suggestion that they capture (instead of croaking) Ansom. It should be easy enough to convince the Tool to go along -- gloating and sneering in the face of an uncroaked former enemy isn't nearly as satisfying as doing it to him when he's alive.

[hamstard4ever]

Veiling is definitely not following Chekhovs' script writing rule. :smallwink:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov's_gun

Um, I think you've got it backwards. I've always understood the point of Chekhov's gun to be that if an element is introduced, that element must eventually be used. The "gun" (veiling) has just now been hung on the wall. Since Rob & Jamie have shown themselves to generally make good use of Chekhov's gun we can assume that at some point the gun is going to be "fired" (i.e. the idea of veiling will be used again at a more plot-critical point). So far the existence of "veiling" hasn't actually done anything to change the story. Even if Ansom moved into the center hex just because he thought Stanley was veiling units there (the same kind of shrewd-but-stupid logic he expects from Stanley, e.g. leaving a "weak spot" in the fortress that was still within range of Ansom anyhow) it probably hasn't done much to change his actual situation, since 1 hex of movement would not have mattered to any of the dwagons anyhow. I think this entire page is mostly dedicated towards introducing the concept of veiling (by having Ansom perform a silly and useless move to introduce veiling as an example) so that it can be used further along in the story: it is exactly in fitting with Chekhov's gun.

[Aquillion]

...the real question that this page raises is exactly how stunningly, mind-gobberingly, pathetically incompetent Stanley must be. It isn't just Ansom's assumptions about him...

Stanley's advantages throughout this war, that we know of, include 100% perfect military intelligence (against an opponent who has virtually nothing beyond a few scouts), the ability to turn his troops invisible at will, and some of the greatest air units in the game.

How is it possible to lose with those kinds of advantages? How is it possible to even go anywhere near losing with those kind of advantages? Ansom has to protect every single unit he has against air attacks, 100% of the time, no exceptions, or Stanley sees it instantly on the table and swoops in to attack with powerful invisible flying units that he could have hidden anywhere. Stanley wouldn't even need any fancy strategy... he just has to hit wherever Ansom is weakest every turn.

I cannot even begin to wrap my head around what a bad leader Stanley must be to have done as badly as he did with those kinds of advantages. The table alone should have given him an overwhelming advantage, but combined with the dwagons and the ability to turn entire stacks invisible? Ansom's opinion of him is well-grounded, to say the least.

[TiamatRoar]

It's possible that Stanley lost so much not just because of poor strategy, but because the entire world (or at least the entire eastern side of it) united against him. Lots of advantages can sometimes be overcome by sheer numbers (the ZERG strategy, if you will). But the fact that Parson alone was able to turn a lot of the tide (destroying almost half the opponent's siege) in just ONE TURN suggests that it was more likely due to Stanely's incompetence.

[Scientivore]

100% perfect military intelligence (against an opponent who has virtually nothing beyond a few scouts)

...which his opponent apparently doesn't know about, else Jillian's escapes would be preposterous instead of suspicious...


the ability to turn his troops invisible at will

...or at least his opponent's belief in that ability -- the Foolamancer might be too busy displaying things on the table now -- which is almost as useful...


and some of the greatest air units in the game

...who will defend him to the death, thanks to the Arkenhammer.

So, yes. I agree completely. In fact, when Parson said that Ansom thinks that Stanley is stupid and Sizemore said "Mm," I think that he barely managed to stop himself from saying, "Well of course he does, everybody thinks that."

[Caledonian]

Stanley's advantages throughout this war, that we know of, include 100% perfect military intelligence (against an opponent who has virtually nothing beyond a few scouts),

He only has that perfect intelligence because the three casters are linked together in a dangerous melange. Additionally, all three casters are in the same place only because they were salvaged from the remnants of an 11-city empire.


the ability to turn his troops invisible at will

No, that is NOT what we know Stanley to have. No spell is free. No spell is unlimited. And the troops aren't invisible, they're 'veiled'.

[tainsouvra]

Good, but not entirely definitive.
[...]
It does not convince me that it is not turn-based, it only serves to demonstrate the panels in question do not prove that it is. It is, however, exactly what you asked me for...if you can think of something else that would be more convincing, just let me know where the new goalposts are. :smallwink:


Unless Pclips decides to post here, or gives us a Klog (which we really need for a lot of things) that situation is unlikely to change. I agree. My point, however, was that it was neither indefensible that the game was turn-based, nor was there definitive evidence that it was realtime.


Finally, since it's a story about a game-like world, the presentation won't just be a literal, lock-step depiction of Erf physics. This was going to be my next point, I'm glad someone brought it up--the authors have already demonstrated that they will happily misrepresent some of the details if it's artistically better and doesn't change the outcome. How combat is drawn is very likely to fall into that category.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Look, until we get confirmation one way or another, I will likely think of combat in Erfworld as the Civilization model. They units move and do what they do on your turn, but they fight whenever they meet the enemy with both sides comparing attack and defense and effecting each other at the same time.

It could be a more complicated system with initiative and strict turn based combat...but who knows. It is damn near impossible to tell from the comic because each panel is a freeze frame.

Perhaps in the near future, the writer will publish another Klog in which Parson goes over some of the mechanics of actual combat in an internal style dialog looking for a combat exploit, or just recording a number crunching session with his new toy.

[DavidByron]

I think it's possible to see Stanley as a reasonably smart guy in this story. Certainly he is very successful. Let's consider a few facts we know about him.

(1) He used to be a grunt and now he's a king. Pretty good, huh?

(2) He came up with the idea of linking the three eyemancers even though he is not trained as either a mage or a warlord.

I've yet to see Parsons do anything as clever as either of those items.

He also managed to acquire and become attuned to an Arkentool. So far as we know, nobody else has managed this.

Now the main criticism of him as being a dummy is the bad handling of the war so far but Stanely hasn't been handling that -- his overlords have (overlords picked out by Wanda incidentally). I think this is misidentifying Stanely's weakness. It's not that he's stupid. He just isn't very interested in war. You could lose ten of eleven cities through stupidity alone but you couldn't lose ten of eleven cities and not even be aware of it through stupidity alone. Wanda comes to Stanely and tells him that he's about to lose his last city. His reaction is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0005.html),


It's really that bad?

Somebody apparently wasn't paying much attention.

Stanely is interested in his destiny. He has squandered the resources of what must have been a very impressive empire once. He doesn't really care.


Even if the city falls I can take the Arkenhammer and get out

He really just wants someone else to deal with all the war stuff but unfortunately he doesn't have or didn't have someone like Wanda who he could just hand it all over to, nor did he take the trouble to find someone like that.

When judging if Stanley is stupid or smart think about it from where he used to be to where he is now and think about what is important to him and what is not.

[Divine Hammer]

Ansom's problem isn't so much that he thinks Stanley is stupid; it's that he thinks Stanley is a stupid, deceitful peasant. I think he could come around to the fact that he was tricked if Stanley was just some stupid, rebellious noble...

I can't find anything in the comic that supports this characterization of Ansom. In this very comic, Ansom points out that Stanley has "pulled a shrewd trick or two". He also asserts, correctly, that this sort of trick is beyond Stanley.

Remember that Stanley has been sending troops into battle for quite some time now. The book is out on his strategic ability, and Ansom has read it (Stanley, you magnificent bastard...). I see no reason to believe that his contempt for Stanley's military leadership is based on anything but Stanley's history of incompetence.



Ansom just doesn't see Stanley as a worthy adversary, so faced with the options that he was either completely outsmarted by such a foe or Stanley was hiding his forces, Ansom went with the choice that made the most sense to him.


Yeah, and Stanley doesn't appear to be a worthy adversary, at least in the realm of tactics. (He does have the brilliant innovation of linking his 'mancers to his credit, but we haven't heard about anything momentous he's done in the field.) As I said earlier, Ansom's desperate assumption may have been sheer brilliance if Stanley were actually in command. Imagine playing chess against Paris Hilton only to find that Ziiiiiiiiiiiiip! it's really Garry Kasparov!

[Ubiq]

Stanley's advantages throughout this war, that we know of, include 100% perfect military intelligence (against an opponent who has virtually nothing beyond a few scouts), the ability to turn his troops invisible at will, and some of the greatest air units in the game.

Well, in this case, perfect military intelligence basically amounts to Stanley knowing how outnumbered he is. The ability to give commands in real time isn't all that useful considering that his officers pool is pretty much gone. Early on, that might not have been the case, but Manpower the Temporary was felled by what was essentially Unintentional Divine Intervention. Who knows how the others died?

On the other hand, he might not have started with all that deep a pool of talent anyway; since he came to power from the ranks through regicide, he might have purged many of his predecessor's more competent people in the process. We only see him in action during one panel, but Manpower seemed at least competent at Warchalking, but we don't know how effective he really was. Considering that Stanley's earliest officers were lower ranked, he might well have promoted buddies from the old days regardless of skill. Impossible to tell unless we get a more detailed backstory down the road.

As far as veiling troops go, that might come with any number of disadvantages such as an inability to command units while they're veiled, some sort of defensive penalty, or even see them yourself until the spell is removed. So it's not necessarily a great advantage, especially if your opponent has a reason to suspect where they might be. The fact that nobody even bothered to mention it before now suggests that it's not a standard tactic and there has to be a reason for that.

Now, the dwagons, yes, they're powerful, but can still be overwhelmed by sheer force, which Ansom has in spades. Barring his warlords, they're probably the most expensive units that Stanley fields in terms of upkeep and replacing them is probably a great strain on Gobwin Knob's resources. So their sheer power may well be limited by the fact that Stanley isn't willing to risk them, especially far out in the field away from his base.


How is it possible to lose with those kinds of advantages? How is it possible to even go anywhere near losing with those kind of advantages?

For one thing, Ansom has sheer numbers of his side to begin and reinforcements throughout the entire campaign as new elves join. Ansom could afford to run attacks on multiple cities during his campaign at the same time while Stanley had to divide his forces to counter each attack.

For another thing, Stanley tended to promote people based on looks and attitude rather than ability. Who knows how many mistakes his warlords made prior to dying. Well, outside of Ensign Redshirt anyway. I doubt made many mistakes as I suspect that he was probably killed the instant he hit the battlefield... actually, that might well have been what killed him in the first place.

For a third thing, old-fashioned bad luck. The aforementioned Warchalking for instance. Without that Gem of the Titans, the Marbit axemen would not have been on the field and Manpower's counterattack might have been successful. That might not have made much a difference in the long run though, but it's still a loss that was because of something that Stanley had no control over.


Ansom has to protect every single unit he has against air attacks, 100% of the time, no exceptions, or Stanley sees it instantly on the table and swoops in to attack with powerful invisible flying units that he could have hidden anywhere. Stanley wouldn't even need any fancy strategy... he just has to hit wherever Ansom is weakest every turn.

There's no proof that veiling works that way though. If it did, Wanda would have suggested that turns ago.

Even then, there's no reason to assume that Stanley didn't essentially do that early on. That might be why Ansom insists on the convoy rather than hustling his fastest troops to Gobwin Knob to form a picket line around the city to make sure nobody escapes without him knowing. That would also explain the massive air fleet Ansom has cobbled together. Most likely, the vast bulk of his units are largely inferior to dwagons, but sheer mass can even things out.

Besides, Stanley might have employed such tactics early on, but Ansom just adapted his strategy. After that, it became too risky to use his dwagons to pick off units until Parson came along and put a new spin on it.

[Solharath]

Wait wait wait.... They can veil their troops? ErfWorld certainly has become ten times more interesting then when it started.

[DavidByron]

There's almost no doubt in my mind that the combat is turn based and not simultaneous. This is not because of the illustrations but because of the difference it makes to the combat results and because of what we are told by the characters in the story.

We are told that "archery gets their hitsies" which implies that the archers are not simultaneous with other combat. There is no chance that an attacker for example can kill an archer before the archer has a chance to shoot.

It appears that beyond archers shooting first, the attacker shoots / hits before the defender. This makes a huge difference to the outcome of combat. For example in the fight against the 3 dwagons the dwagons are clearly capable of doing a lot of damage in one round -- killing about two infantry each. The archers shoot first (both because they are archers and because they are attackers) but because they do no damage the dwagons get to attack at full strength killing six archers.

When Ansom attacks with his full strength the 3 dwagons do no damage at all. Not even one archer is killed. Why? Because they are all dead before their turn to attack. Advocates of simultaneous combat would have to explain why the dwagons suddenly can't kill even one archer.

Some people have asked how it is that there is such a big difference between Ansom attacking the 19 wounded A dragons and 3 warlords first, then being attacked by the B dwagons on the next turn vs being attacked by all dwagons at once. The main difference (equal with the fact that the A dwagons would be wounded if he attacks quickly) is that the attacker gets a huge advantage. With the archers striking first it's possible that all 19 dwagons would be killed before any of them get to attack at all. All dead for no damage to Ansom.

In fact if the A dwagons are NOT so badly wounded that they could be killed by a single volley of archer fire then Parson could have safely used them in another round of attack against siege units.

But if the wounded A dwagons attack simultaneously then it would be a very different story. Even just four dwagons took out Jillian on a gwiffon with a magic sword. She's probably the toughest unit in the game so far.

So if combat is not "attacker shoots then defender shoots" (or to be more precise ("attacker archers shoot, defender archers shoot, attacker non-archers shoot etc") then it is much harder to see how Ansom could have expected to survive an attack by the B dwagons after defeating the A dwagons.

[Ubiq]

I can't find anything in the comic that supports this characterization of Ansom. In this very comic, Ansom points out that Stanley has "pulled a shrewd trick or two". He also asserts, correctly, that this sort of trick is beyond Stanley.


Going by Vinnie's discussion on page 34 and Ansom's speech on page 22, I think he holds Stanley in far more contempt than simply for his perceived stupidity. On page 22, Ansom calls Tool a madman outright and then implies that he's a coward (which I'll definitely dispute, Tool doesn't come across as a coward, if anything, he's probably too willing to pick a fight for his own good) and totally incompetent.

On page 34, Vinnie notes that Ansom doesn't like the fact that Stanley was common infantry and not noble. Ansom denies it, but Vinnie obviously touches a nerve.

Now, Vinnie, who doesn't make a big deal about the nobility issue seems to come to grips that they were outsmarted by Stanley while Ansom wholly discards said notion as it having to be a trick to the extent that he waltzes into an even worse situation than they were already in. Vinnie is just as aware of Stanley's strategic deficiencies as Ansom, but doesn't seem to have a mental block to the notion that Stanley might have pulled one over on them. By comparison, Ansom appears to be getting a headache in the first panel even trying to comprehend such a notion.

Even after the uncharacteristically shrewd move the Tool's force just made when it comes to attacking their siege, Ansom still doesn't get that none of this is what they usually see out of the Tool. That points to a somewhat irrational hatred of Stanley on Ansom's part and that's best chalked up to the reasons gone over on page 34.


Remember that Stanley has been sending troops into battle for quite some time now. The book is out on his strategic ability, and Ansom has read it (Stanley, you magnificent bastard...). I see no reason to believe that his contempt for Stanley's military leadership is based on anything but Stanley's history of incompetence.

But again though, the last turn saw a very out-of-character strategy from his foe followed up by a fairly complex formation designed in such a way that he uses up most of his move to get to a weak point where he can receive little back up from his air forces and little help from his main column. By now, somebody ought to have noticed that something is up.



Yeah, and Stanley doesn't appear to be a worthy adversary, at least in the realm of tactics. (He does have the brilliant innovation of linking his 'mancers to his credit, but we haven't heard about anything momentous he's done in the field.) As I said earlier, Ansom's desperate assumption may have been sheer brilliance if Stanley were actually in command. Imagine playing chess against Paris Hilton only to find that Ziiiiiiiiiiiiip! it's really Garry Kasparov!

The past turn was nothing like the Stanley of old. If nothing else, that should be a sign that they should be cautious and wait for developments rather than plowing ahead. Ansom hasn't even considered that Stanley might have found somebody capable of leading his armies and that's who they're dealing with now.

[SteveMB]

Going by Vinnie's discussion on page 34 and Ansom's speech on page 22, I think he holds Stanley in far more contempt than simply for his perceived stupidity. On page 22, Ansom calls Tool a madman outright and then implies that he's a coward (which I'll definitely dispute, Tool doesn't come across as a coward, if anything, he's probably too willing to pick a fight for his own good) and totally incompetent.
Interestingly, our introduction to Stanley also gives the reader that impression ("Even if the city falls, I can take the Arkenhammer and get out." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0006.html) -- real profile in courage, that). However, after his rant at Parson about his Titans-ordained destiny, this seems more like determination to prevail no matter what than simple desire to save his own skin.


On page 34, Vinnie notes that Ansom doesn't like the fact that Stanley was common infantry and not noble. Ansom denies it, but Vinnie obviously touches a nerve.
Actually, a close reading shows that Ansom doesn't deny it at all -- if anything he confirms it by implying that Stanley's unsuitability to rule is something that nobles should just naturally take as a given ("You're a Count. You should know--").


Now, Vinnie, who doesn't make a big deal about the nobility issue seems to come to grips that they were outsmarted by Stanley while Ansom wholly discards said notion as it having to be a trick to the extent that he waltzes into an even worse situation than they were already in. Vinnie is just as aware of Stanley's strategic deficiencies as Ansom, but doesn't seem to have a mental block to the notion that Stanley might have pulled one over on them. By comparison, Ansom appears to be getting a headache in the first panel even trying to comprehend such a notion....
The above said, I basically agree that Ansom's preconceptions make it hard for him to wrap his head around the notion that Stanley has outmaneuvered him. (Of course, we know that it wasn't Stanley. Perhaps somebody (probably Vinny) will infer that Stanley got himself a genius warlord, or perhaps Jillian (if Wanda explained what the "monstrous Findamancy/Lookamancy thing" did, and allowed her to remember) will report it. I can picture Ansom responding to this discovery, or even this unproven guess, as the one thing that gets the world to make sense again.)

[kreszantas]

Interestingly, our introduction to Stanley also gives the reader that impression ("Even if the city falls, I can take the Arkenhammer and get out." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0006.html) -- real profile in courage, that). However, after his rant at Parson about his Titans-ordained destiny, this seems more like determination to prevail no matter what than simple desire to save his own skin.


Actually, a close reading shows that Ansom doesn't deny it at all -- if anything he confirms it by implying that Stanley's unsuitability to rule is something that nobles should just naturally take as a given ("You're a Count. You should know--").


The above said, I basically agree that Ansom's preconceptions make it hard for him to wrap his head around the notion that Stanley has outmaneuvered him. (Of course, we know that it wasn't Stanley. Perhaps somebody (probably Vinny) will infer that Stanley got himself a genius warlord, or perhaps Jillian (if Wanda explained what the "monstrous Findamancy/Lookamancy thing" did, and allowed her to remember) will report it. I can picture Ansom responding to this discovery, or even this unproven guess, as the one thing that gets the world to make sense again.)

Well I think its simpler than all this with Ansoms comment on he is simply not that bright in reference to Stanley in panel 2, all the prior information stated here just supports the statement.

Edit: to add on panel 9 where Parson gets cut off he could mean to capture Jillian again as well, or just the pliers by themselves, too many open variables to actually a complete a solid theory.

[Sappo7]

"Veiling" doesn't have to mean cloaking or stealth though, it's just a word that means obfuscation. Maybe it means you can use a foolamancer to conceal or falsify perceived unit stats, so that one of the original party platter theories (wounded dragons on the edge, healthy dragons in the middle, trap and a rout when ansom attacks) might actually have been a possibility if he'd been aware of all resources.

So maybe when he says "AHA! VEILING!", Ansom means "I bet the dragons in this ring are actually wounded ones under illusion, I shall uses my forces to break through their apparently strongest part because that means it is probably their weakest part!".

Cloaking and invisibility are pretty big news and you'd think even an idiot would be whoring that all over. He may not be worth much tactically, but stanley isn't completely stupid when it comes to using his resources.

I can't imagine even an idiot failing to use invisibility as you all are describing it if he had it; heck, I'd expect an idiot to use it so heavily that it would be functionally useless as a surprise tool.

Something relatively subtle and meta like hiding unit stats, that's something I could see a simpleton failing to exploit.

[ChowGuy]

QUOTE=DavidByron;2867899]Advocates of simultaneous combat would have to explain why the dwagons suddenly can't kill even one archer.[/quote]
No need to as yet.

Your argument is based on the premise that no archers are killed, therefore all the Dwagons must have been dead before they could attack, therefore combat must be turn based.

And, it follows that because combat is turn based, the Dwagons never had a chance to kill any archers. Otherwise how do you explain it?

Sounds logical, but... If the premises to an argument are faulty, any conclusion, however seemingly logical, remains unproven. You cannot use your conclusion (combat is turn based) to justify your premise (no archers were lost). That's called "affirming the consequent" and is a logical fallicy.

There is a saying that "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof." Your claim is that "Not even one archer is killed." but if you cannot demonstrate this is the case, the requirement to explain it vanishes, and with it the solidity of your conclusion.

And please do not use the excuse "None is shown being killed." You prefixed your post with the caveat "This is not because of the illustrations" so it is clearly your belief that the artwork does not reflect the entire story.

I agree. The story (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0064.html) tells us that Ansom is committing "everything but [the] bats" to the assault. In the accompanying artwork, I count besides the three warlords 5 Gumps and a minimum of 15 Elves. This is far more then are shown in the combined vignettes on page 59 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0065.html). So where are the rest? Parson, again as part of the story (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0066.html), tells Stanley "And it [croaking the three Dwagons] cost him." Were there perhaps much to Ansom's (and your?) consternation, a great many archers killed somewhere "off-camera" before the Dwagon's dramatic demise? Despite the fact that, per your scenario, he would have had to have brought with him enough units to simultaneously attack and croak "as many as two dozen" Dwagons if he hoped to survive.

It has further been said that the pink Dwagon whose head is being ripped off by a Gump, has already lost his limbs. If that's so when do you propose that happened? Were there undepicted Gump rounds before this, interleaved with undepicted Dwagon rounds? If so you explain how none of those could have managed to do any damage.

=============

----- Part #1


It is, however, exactly what you asked me for...if you can think of something else that would be more convincing, just let me know where the new goalposts are.
No change in goalpost. My criteria included

a unit... remains stock still while a unit from the other side moves to it (1)

Your example was that of units moving and attacking, however you fail to demonstrate (definitively) the the defenders are simply standing/perching there waiting. That was an important part of the the criterion.

However, if you require further clarification, the intent was ideally to produce a sequence in which the defender appears in a panel as the same panel(s) as an approching attacker, taking no offensive action (figiting is OK) and in (a) subsequent panel(s) in the same relative position/stance while being attacked. I considered requiring the attacker completing his move for damage, but thought that too severe.

This corresponds to the opposing criteria "Show me a single frame in which units of both sides are shown taking damage" (or would if I enforced the "does damage"). This I believe I did, particularly in the case of arrows in flight even as a skewering attack takes place. The fact that the arrows cannot be seen hitting/missing their target and thus "doing damage" does not, I think, preclude the interpretation that the action of firing them takes place in the same turn as the action of skewering. It is an attack, one intended to do damage, that should suffice. If on the other hand the arrows were simply shown protruding from the target, one could quite reasonably argue that they had been fired previously since the act of"hitting" is difficult to accurately convey on that scale within a single frame. Likewise if the bowmen were simply shown aiming and drawing it would not be unreasonable to suggest that they are simply waiting their turn to fire. Thus, "in flight" is a reasonable watermark in determining the distinction.

----- Part #2

BTW, your quoted snippage of my post infers a connection between "not entirely definitive" and "the panels shown" with the implication that "the panels" refered to are those you indicated. Don't know if that was the inference you meant to draw, but such was not my intention. Rather the "the panels" that section refers to are those in which Parson and Stanley and dicuss the term "realtime" and the implication as to Erfworld combat. I included both remarks in the same thread to avoid double posting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=47&a=1). Not a biggie, and I'm certainly not calling ... (uhm, the rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=47&a=1) aren't nUmbered, but it's the "editting" paragraph under "trolling") or anything. Just another clarification. Sometimes its hard in these meandering discussion threads to tell just what is being discussed.

----- Part #3

In any event, as we at least are agreed that the issue can perhaps never be resolved (definitively) to everyones satisfaction should of Elvisian revalation, and we've wandered waaaay off topic for the page in question, probably best we close the subject. Its becoming an almost ideological debate, with sides polarizing into quite rigid camps. I don't do ideological debates for exactly that reason nor do I allow them in forums I moderate, so to take part in one here would be shall we say, hypocritical? Or maybe hypercritical. I dunno. I jes dunno. Anyway I have lots of other controversial ideas (like the true nature of the Archons) that must likewise await further evidence. No need to waste all my rantergy now. :-p

[Scientivore]

I can't imagine even an idiot failing to use invisibility as you all are describing it if he had it; heck, I'd expect an idiot to use it so heavily that it would be functionally useless as a surprise tool.

I've been saying that maybe Stanley can't actually use veiling because of the Foolamancer being part of the IIImancer† now. Maybe Wanda was just telling Parson that Ansom might be assuming that Stanley can veil units because Jillian told her that Ansom knows that Stanley has a Foolamancer.

† I'm trying out a shorter neologism. It could be read as "triple eyemancer" -- like how IEEE is read "I-triple-E" -- or "threemancer" if you prefer.


Anyway I have lots of other controversial ideas (like the true nature of the Archons) that must likewise await further evidence. No need to waste all my rantergy now. :-p

No need at all -- especially if it could be alchemically transformed into jestergy with a silly spec thread or pointed (de)motivator. :smallwink:

[Jarawara]

"Waitwaitwait. Time out. We can *veil* our troops?"

Most everyone here is taking that as indication that Ansom is even more screwed than he was. Most everyone is taking that as a sign that Ansom is assuming that the Dwagons must be there, veiled, and therefore is charging on ahead, further booping himself up by going fully into the trap. There have been a few notable exceptions, but most everyone here is speculating on exactly what magnitude of booposity that Ansom has buried himself into.

Not me.

I am a wargamer. And the one thing I dread most in a wargame is that moment when I realize I did not understand the full implications of a rule. Because, if I'm just now learning about it, it's because someone else just handed my head to be by it.

It is Parson that is booped, not Ansom.

Parson is well and truly booped. We don't yet see why or how, but if I had to guess, I'm thinking it's the autoattack when not stacked with a warlord, and something that was missing off the stupid meals. Parson is truly booped, and this plan is going to go badly for him, real quick.

Let me examine 'veiling' for a moment. Hmmm... in most wargames, that concept simply doesn't exist. Most computer games do have it, but they aren't usually hex-based and turn-based, so let's assume Erfworld is a boardgame. Some board-wargames do have veiling, but of course you can't actually 'hide' a unit entirely, though you can put a 'army marker' down and then hide what's inside that army.

In most wargames with veiling, the veiling is done instead of moving. However, if that were true here, then Wanda wouldn't have suggested it at all, since Ansom knew the dragons had moved, and therefore could not have been veiled. So in Erfworld, you can move and then veil. Now, assumption time - so can Ansom. We don't know what 'mancers he's got, but with a 25:1 ratio of troops, I bet he's got a few of them at least. One or more foolamancers, and we got ourselves Ansom's army veiled and on the move, attacking the Dwagons. And Parson doesn't see it, as he only sees what is not veiled in the front. Parson doesn't see what kind of battle is upon him after all. So much for his near-perfect military intelligence, he's not got all the facts yet.

Now: Stupidmeals! We know from the stupidmeals that only air units can attack other air units over forest hexes. This of course is wrong, as we then learned that forest units can attack air units as well. Stupid stupidmeals! But we then look at that first criteria... 'Air units can only be attacked by other air units over forest hexes'. That implies that air units can be attacked by ground units normally, yes? From there, it then becomes a simple assumption that ground units cannot *initiate* combat with an air unit, while air units have no such restrictions... but that if combat is initiated, land units may very well be able to defend themselves, just as if they had been in open ground. Those dwagons have to come down below the treeline to attack, don't they?

As such, standard land units *can* attack the dwagons, and *can* kill the dwagons, but only if the dwagons attack first. And as Ansom's army is veiled, those standard land units did accompany him, and are available to fight.

And those warlords? They're off with the wounded dwagons, awaiting next turn, right? Without warlords, stacks of units are forced to auto-attack, are they not? Therefore, Parson's dwagons are going to autoattack standard land units, which can then counterattack, and the dwagons are going to be overwhelmed by sheer numbers.

It looks to me like Ansom stacked them all in one hex (maximum effect is 8 per stack, so you see alot of 8-unit stacks, but it didn't say what the maximum was, did it?), which means there's going to be a bloody mess on both sides as each of Parson's stacks attack in turn (nothing mentioned on whether each stack attacks simultanously or sequentially), and Ansom's force is not going to diminish with losses, as he's just got a bunch more with him. In the end, there's going to be bloody mayhem and bodies everywhere, but Parson's losing his entire dwagon pincher force.

That's at least my take.

One last thought. Besides being a wargamer, I'm also an amateur author. A pretty poor one at that, but it does give me some storyline insight. And I know that you don't have one big plan go right to end the story - it just plays out way too fast. It's just too early to 'win' this one now, and so therefore Parson's got to lose. He'll lose, then recover from the grim realities of the loss to find a new plan, so as to come back to win it later.

The only way, in fact, for him to win at this point in the story is if he then figures out that Stanley has to be stopped, and therefore must switch side and find a way to beat his now unbeatable dwagon army. I shall admit to that possibility, and therefore the possibility that Ansom truly is booped for the sole reason of 'storyline necessity'.

At least, that's how I see it.

Anyway, it's like 2 in the morning, and still 80 degrees, and I'm off. I await with unfettered anticipation as to what happens next. Someone's booped, and if I don't get my Erfworld fix, that someone's gonna be me! :smallbiggrin:

[Freerefill]

I don't feel up for a full on rant about strategy and options so I'm just gonna say I love the dynamic poses and facial expressions in this Page. Vinny's expression of "grumble" in Panel 2, Ansom's expression of utter refusal to believe in Panel 4, Panel 6 where he puts his helmet back on, and speaking of helmet off, his helmet hair. Good stuff.

Oh, and isn't it cute how Tool has to stand on a box to reach the table?

[waynemcdougall]

I have a feeling of dread, prompted by Sizemore's "Mm" on Page 60.

My prediction: Dwagons don't heal over water.

Yup, I registered just to say that on page 8 of the thread.

Keep up the good work everyone.

[Dwagon]

I'm not sure Parson can veil units from GK.

Wanda needed to go uncroak Manpower herself. Sizemore needs to go down in the cesspits to create crap golems. The Eyemancers need to be at the table to operate the display Stanley has, etc...

So it seems probable that in order to veil units you need to send the foolamancer in the hex with the units. If that's true, and unless Stanley has another foolamancer, I don't see it happening.

[Renx]

We are told that "archery gets their hitsies" which implies that the archers are not simultaneous with other combat. There is no chance that an attacker for example can kill an archer before the archer has a chance to shoot.

No, they're just the only ones that can attack the dwagons.


When Ansom attacks with his full strength the 3 dwagons do no damage at all. Not even one archer is killed. Why? Because they are all dead before their turn to attack. Advocates of simultaneous combat would have to explain why the dwagons suddenly can't kill even one archer.

We don't know that. Just because we don't see any casualties in the attack doesn't mean there aren't any. Artistic license and all that crap. Also, at least one dwagon was killed by Gumps, who most certainly don't shoot arrows.

You're also not even touching at warlords affecting combat.


Some people have asked how it is that there is such a big difference between Ansom attacking the 19 wounded A dragons and 3 warlords first, then being attacked by the B dwagons on the next turn vs being attacked by all dwagons at once. The main difference (equal with the fact that the A dwagons would be wounded if he attacks quickly) is that the attacker gets a huge advantage. With the archers striking first it's possible that all 19 dwagons would be killed before any of them get to attack at all. All dead for no damage to Ansom.

Nnnno, they knew that they were going to lose troops (maybe a lot), but were willing to risk it because they have three uncroaked warlords, which Ansom's Arkenpliers can kill one-shot.

[Etheric]

Parson is well and truly booped. We don't yet see why or how, but if I had to guess, I'm thinking it's the autoattack when not stacked with a warlord, and something that was missing off the stupid meals. Parson is truly booped, and this plan is going to go badly for him, real quick.

[SNIP]

As such, standard land units *can* attack the dwagons, and *can* kill the dwagons, but only if the dwagons attack first. And as Ansom's army is veiled, those standard land units did accompany him, and are available to fight.

And those warlords? They're off with the wounded dwagons, awaiting next turn, right? Without warlords, stacks of units are forced to auto-attack, are they not? Therefore, Parson's dwagons are going to autoattack standard land units, which can then counterattack, and the dwagons are going to be overwhelmed by sheer numbers.

One last thought. Besides being a wargamer, I'm also an amateur author. A pretty poor one at that, but it does give me some storyline insight. And I know that you don't have one big plan go right to end the story - it just plays out way too fast. It's just too early to 'win' this one now, and so therefore Parson's got to lose. He'll lose, then recover from the grim realities of the loss to find a new plan, so as to come back to win it later.


Glad to see at least one person is thinking along the same lines as me. I have been banging on about something similar for a while now. Something is up. I don't think it is going to be a disaster for Parson as they are basically one disaster away from losing, but Ansom is up to something and we probably don't have enough information to work out what yet.

The next strip is going to give us more clues I think. If the next strip is a talk about how veiling works, combined with ansoms stack on the map board not moving again (and parson again saying something about not understanding that, he has one or two move left, why not croak one stack of dwagons? Then end turn and stanley getting excited. Note not showing Ansom AT ALL, or very very briefly.

If it is just something simple then we will see Vinny and Ansom talking about what to do next after their colossal blunder in the next strip. But I really really do not expect that.

I do find it interesting how the preferences of everyone here comes through. Vinny is popular, Ansom is not. Jillian I have not seen much about. Wanda is popular (but pretty evil I think), Parson ok is the hero. Stanley noone really likes, but is happy to have him rule the world if Parson gets to win too.

Not going to speculate any more, we do not have enough information to prove something more complicated is going on, so going to wait for the next strip.

[Krelon]

"Waitwaitwait. Time out. We can *veil* our troops?"
...
[snip]
...
Let me examine 'veiling' for a moment. Hmmm... in most wargames, that concept simply doesn't exist. Most computer games do have it, but they aren't usually hex-based and turn-based, so let's assume Erfworld is a boardgame. Some board-wargames do have veiling, but of course you can't actually 'hide' a unit entirely, though you can put a 'army marker' down and then hide what's inside that army.
[snip]


warlods which is a square-based turn-based game some mancers can cast invisibility. the stack is invis, cannot be found by scouts, only way to engage is to attack the hex it is in by guessing in which stack it really is.

problem in Erf that I see: Mancers are rare. Stanley only foolamancer is part of the linked eyemancers so I guess he cannot move around with stacks.
Ansom may know that Stanley has 1 Foolamancer so there is a chance he could be cloaking the wounded. As someone pointed out it's a straw which can be grabbed.
Even if there were cloaking possible, I guess it expensive (to cast and upkeep).

I am not a great fan of Stanley, still I feel compelled to defend him just a bit. People think he is really stupid, well I believe he is just an average guy (not a military genius, not even an average strategist) who somehow became chosen by a tool of the titans. Now he strongly believes it is his devine right.

So what does he do? Instead of giving up he levels himself to be the leader of an 11 cities nation and starts a war to get the other tools. His warplans are really simple: Put the best looking guy in command (great morale bonus) and fight it out. It COULD work (set the difficulty level to easy and give the player a few good units to start with) Unluckily his enemies just outnumber him and they are at least average strategists, so this tactic doesnt work, even with the control of dwagons, simple as that.

He really seems to me like a newbie wargamer who does not have the knack for it but somehow won the lottery free pass to play in the national online championships. Build good stacks, buy a lot of mancers, do simple moves, believe in your destiny.

[sihnfahl]

I do find it interesting how the preferences of everyone here comes through. Vinny is popular
He's likeable to gamers because... well, he has a sense when something isn't happening like it should. He's quick to realize when a situation is going sour. He's skeptical, cautious, forward-thinking and an excellent analyst. He makes a GOOD opponent for Parson. I'd prefer he survive and Ansom get captured so that Vinny has the opportunity to lead the Coalition and give Parson a -real- opponent.


Ansom is not
He's not very likeable. He's brute force. Get as many units together, spread them out, move on GK. Look at his tactical mistakes. His most important units in the attack on GK are the siege; he only protects them with some archery when he's in range of GK and its dwagons. His airforce is spread out to the point only 1 stack with any sort of chance against the most powerful air units on his opponent's side can reach. He's slow to realize traps, walks INTO one willingly... he makes for a -boring- fight.


Jillian I have not seen much about.
Mostly because she's being manipulated by Wanda. She's brash. She has little personality of her own beyond "I wanna fight!", "I want Ansom's company!", and "Oh, Mistress Wanda, I love you so, beat me again..." A bit of a flat character of what we've seen so far.


Wanda is popular (but pretty evil I think)
She's strong, self-assured, knows what she wants, knows how to manipulate people (particularly Stanley)... what isn't to like about her? Oh, and yeah, she is pretty evil. At best, amoral.


Parson ok is the hero.
I'm not so sure about Parson. Before he came to erfworld, he was... well, not doing much. Hit mall for food. Work low-pay job. Avoid college. Play games. Go home, play more games, eat. His car's got its Check Engine light on. His apartment's a mess, heavily stained and has trash carelessly strewn about.
Since getting to Erfworld, he's shown flashes of compassion here and there, and concern... but he's still a bit of a neutral. He's living his favorite type of game (turn-based) and he's latched onto it.


Stanley noone really likes, but is happy to have him rule the world if Parson gets to win too.
He reminds people far too much of certain... personages...
Of which the less said is better. Forum rules and all that.

[Thes Hunter]

This being page whatever, I doubt anyone will read this, however here is my opinion:


Along with many others, I feel that Ansom charged in because he believed the troops are veiled. Even though he is smart, he is still very prideful. Vinny is there to counterbalance that a bit, but doesn't always work.

This leaves Ansom in the center hex, with presumably no move. (Otherwise why wouldn't Parson think that Ansom wouldn't try to power through the 6 dragon stack to get back to the column, since that would be certainly a easier fight that whatever Parson could potentially throw at him next turn.)


I do not know how much time they have before sunset, i.e. end of turn, but it is still Ansom's turn.

We know he has flying units that can reach, but barely. We also have this mysterious Charlie. It is possible, though highly unlikely that he will use Jillian with the archons and/or Charlie to help him get out of the vice this turn. Because these flyers would either have to have enough move to circle around to the open backside, or would have to punch through one of the dragon hexs themselves, and then back out again. Then who knows if they have enough move to get him back to relative safety. This would still leave the gumps and the woodsy elves there to be slaughtered, but would take Ansom and Vinny's boops out of the vice. (And would Vinny even have boops? :smallbiggrin: )

Now, if he doesn't find away to escape the trap before dawn, I like other posters feel that it is likely that Ansom and Vinny will be captured rather than croaked. Then Stanly can get the arkenpliers. But I also believe as other posters has pointed out, Parsons attack on Ansom will not go as well as planned, because of the Arkenpliers ability to destroy the uncroaked. Which it is very reasonable to assume Parson does not know about.

A side note, that I am sure others have noticed. Stanely has a chin swirl just like the Elvis Titans. I believe this is what makes him, more 'holy' and able to attune to the arkenpliers while Ansom can not.

And if Ansom is captured, I think we will see that Wanda's hold over Jillian isn't as complete as she would like to think. Jillian does have some feelings for Ansom, as shown by her considering coming to his tent in the final panels of page 8.

[mrocktor]

It is Parson that is booped, not Ansom.
Would you care to back that up with, say, 1000 shmuckers? :smallbiggrin:

[sihnfahl]

This leaves Ansom in the center hex, with presumably no move. (Otherwise why wouldn't Parson think that Ansom wouldn't try to power through the 6 dragon stack to get back to the column, since that would be certainly a easier fight that whatever Parson could potentially throw at him next turn.)
Even more evidence against Ansom wanting to power his way back to the column? Starting from the 3-dwagon hex, he could have gone through the 4-dwagon hex and be back to the column in the same amount of move with less risk. Look at the map.

Going straight? Center hex, empty forest. Strong six-dwagon hex, forest. Empty grasslands. Road.

Go 'right'? Weaker four-dwagon hex, forest. Empty forest. Empty grasslands. Road.


though highly unlikely that he will use Jillian with the archons and/or Charlie to help him get out of the vice this turn.
Or make the possibility of an attack so expensive that Parson cannot risk the losses.


This would still leave the gumps and the woodsy elves there to be slaughtered
Why would Parson care about the woodsy elves and gumps on that turn? He'd far prefer Ansom and the siege. He wouldn't attack them this turn and use up move and hitsies if Ansom isn't there...


Parsons attack on Ansom will not go as well as planned, because of the Arkenpliers ability to destroy the uncroaked. Which it is very reasonable to assume Parson does not know about.
They dust most uncroaked according to Ansom. It's a plus, yes, but there's also a strong chance that the Uncroaked Warlords are resistant to the effect. Incomplete information on them. Ansom seems to believe they are effective, but whether they are or not...

[SteveMB]

Along with many others, I feel that Ansom charged in because he believed the troops are veiled. Even though he is smart, he is still very prideful. Vinny is there to counterbalance that a bit, but doesn't always work.

Agreed. It's the one possibility left to him that doesn't lead directly to the conclusion "Stanley played me like a fiddle" -- a concept he simply can't wrap his head around.


This leaves Ansom in the center hex, with presumably no move. (Otherwise why wouldn't Parson think that Ansom wouldn't try to power through the 6 dragon stack to get back to the column, since that would be certainly a easier fight that whatever Parson could potentially throw at him next turn.)

It's possible that Ansom himself has some move left, but most of his units don't. He can't return the way he came because that requires more move than he has; he can't plow straight through because whatever units have any move left are no match for six healthy dwagons.


I do not know how much time they have before sunset, i.e. end of turn, but it is still Ansom's turn.

It may be that "time" in Erfworld is a function of "the side whose turn it is has used all its move, or declared that it's finished moving" (possibly with a "chess clock" limit to prevent stalling or excessive dithering).


And if Ansom is captured, I think we will see that Wanda's hold over Jillian isn't as complete as she would like to think. Jillian does have some feelings for Ansom, as shown by her considering coming to his tent in the final panels of page 8.
Wanda acknowledges (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0045.html) that her control does not extend to direct commands, particularly not direct betrayal of Ansom. Perhaps she intends to (or already has, via something like "post-hypnotic suggestion") influence Jillian to do something that undercuts Ansom in a non-obvious way -- if so, it might get interesting if she finds out despite its non-obviousness....

[Thes Hunter]

Even more evidence against Ansom wanting to power his way back to the column? Starting from the 3-dwagon hex, he could have gone through the 4-dwagon hex and be back to the column in the same amount of move with less risk. Look at the map.

Going straight? Center hex, empty forest. Strong six-dwagon hex, forest. Empty grasslands. Road.

Go 'right'? Weaker four-dwagon hex, forest. Empty forest. Empty grasslands. Road.



Ah, yes. My speech was inaccurate. He could go through a 5 dragon hex instead of the 6 dragon hex with the same movement to get back to the column. To go through the 4 dragon stack he would have to go through a dark green hex, a medium green hex, a light green hex, and then he would be at the column.

We do not know what "low on move" means. Nor can we predict how much safety the column would give him. There is simply not enough information.

We also do not know how many hits Parson could make next turn. In the previous turn, there was the sense that the dwagons had to move from some distance away to hit the column, and a sense that this time they would be closer which would leave them with move enough to come back to Gobwin Knob. So he could have more hits this turn than last. He could have enough hits for the left behind woodsys and gumps, and the seige, but we all are just speculating.

[WarforgedGoblin]

Hiya. Now, this may have been covered in the 8 pages of posts already, but I'm at work and don't have time to go through them all. What if Parson takes this route:

1. Veil the stacks of dwagons around Ansom.
2. Scatter said dwagons.

Yeah, it'll annoy the ever-living boop outta Stanley, but Ansom will have no idea what to do. Will he stay in the middle hex and await an attack that'll never come? Will he have Vinny make a bat and scout each hex, wasting turns and possibly other resources (I'm still convinced that Vinny takes damage when he produces a bat)? Will he waste Jillian's and the other fliers' movement in a futile effort to find out where they went? Will he cough up the schmuckers to pay for Charlie to find them?

Of course, Parson needs to know how veiling works. Does it only work when the unit is motionless? Does it break once another unit enters the hex? Does it cost anything to veil and un-veil? Parson may just veil the dwagons and obliterate the remaining seige engines. Again, Stanley will be right booped off, but I think if Parson lays the "humiliate then defeat Ansom" approach on His Toolness, Ansom may be non-croaked for a bit longer.

[sihnfahl]

We do not know what "low on move" means. Nor can we predict how much safety the column would give him. There is simply not enough information.
I think the telling point is that, in Ansom's estimation that if he had let the dwagons heal to full, that he'd lose the siege units if he didn't go after the dwagons. And even worse than the initial strike.

He saw his map. He knew he was up against at least 2 dozen dwagons and 3 warlords. He saw what units of his were in range and which ones were capable of defending against the dwagons... and, in his estimation, he'd have lost all his siege. And he took a good number of those units (7 stacks of woodsy elves) that could have defended the siege (archery units) and diverted them. Now, presumably, they can't get back. And wouldn't have been of much help anyway since they've already been in a battle and taken a few hits.


We also do not know how many hits Parson could make next turn. In the previous turn, there was the sense that the dwagons had to move from some distance away to hit the column, and a sense that this time they would be closer which would leave them with move enough to come back to Gobwin Knob. So he could have more hits this turn than last. He could have enough hits for the left behind woodsys and gumps, and the seige, but we all are just speculating.
Not to mention he had to hold a number of dwagons behind so that they were at full health to protect the ones that had gone raiding the siege units. He can use all his remaining dwagons next turn safely.
He'd far prefer the siege units on the first pass back. On mop-up, he'd go after the ones capable of tunnel fighting. First to keep the infantry from going over/through the walls, the second to keep them from going under.

[Jarawara]

Originally Posted by Jarawara
"It is Parson that is booped, not Ansom."


Would you care to back that up with, say, 1000 shmuckers? :smallbiggrin:

Make that 1000 stale, crunchy peeps, and you're on! :smalltongue:

[Airshark]

Glad to see at least one person is thinking along the same lines as me. I have been banging on about something similar for a while now. Something is up. I don't think it is going to be a disaster for Parson as they are basically one disaster away from losing, but Ansom is up to something and we probably don't have enough information to work out what yet.

The next strip is going to give us more clues I think. If the next strip is a talk about how veiling works, combined with ansoms stack on the map board not moving again (and parson again saying something about not understanding that, he has one or two move left, why not croak one stack of dwagons? Then end turn and stanley getting excited. Note not showing Ansom AT ALL, or very very briefly.

If it is just something simple then we will see Vinny and Ansom talking about what to do next after their colossal blunder in the next strip. But I really really do not expect that.

I do find it interesting how the preferences of everyone here comes through. Vinny is popular, Ansom is not. Jillian I have not seen much about. Wanda is popular (but pretty evil I think), Parson ok is the hero. Stanley noone really likes, but is happy to have him rule the world if Parson gets to win too.

Not going to speculate any more, we do not have enough information to prove something more complicated is going on, so going to wait for the next strip.

Guys, these "auto-attack" scenarios are just plain wrong. "Auto-attack" means that they fight enemy units in their hex without the selective targeting. It definitely does NOT imply attacking stuff in adjacent hexes. If it did, then (a) Vinny couldn't have gotten that bat to look in the rear hex, and (b) Parson could never have made the dwagon-fort to begin with, and (c) Ansom's forces wouldn't have broken through the three-dwagon stack, because they'd have had to fight eleven, not three dwagons (moving into the three dwagon hex would have triggered "auto attacks" from both adjacent stacks, which combined include eight more dwagons).

[Divine Hammer]

Going by Vinnie's discussion on page 34 and Ansom's speech on page 22, I think he holds Stanley in far more contempt than simply for his perceived stupidity.

As does everyone else in the alliance. Otherwise, they wouldn't be going to kill him. For that matter, people on Stanley's side don't seem to have a much higher opinion of him. I'll concede that Ansom's motives are tainted by Erfworld's version of the Divine Right of Kings. That doesn't mean that Ansom hasn't been assessing Stanley's ability (or lack thereof) in actual warfare.




Now, Vinnie, who doesn't make a big deal about the nobility issue seems to come to grips that they were outsmarted by Stanley while Ansom wholly discards said notion as it having to be a trick to the extent that he waltzes into an even worse situation than they were already in. Vinnie is just as aware of Stanley's strategic deficiencies as Ansom, but doesn't seem to have a mental block to the notion that Stanley might have pulled one over on them. By comparison, Ansom appears to be getting a headache in the first panel even trying to comprehend such a notion.


Except that this is completely backwards. Stanley didn't devise this plan. In fact, he was planning on getting rid of Parson before Wanda took one for the team. When Vinnie comes to grips to being outsmarted by Stanley, he is trying to explain something that didn't happen. It is not flawed logic for Ansom to say that this was beyond Stanley. He acknowledges that Stanley has pulled shrewd trick or two, and he goes on to assess the trap as something beyond Stanley's ability.

You're criticizing Ansom for being right about the situation and about Stanley. Yes, he's failing to account for the possibility that a wargamer from a whole different reality got gated into Erfworld with the last schmuckers from Stanley's treasury. I think he can be forgiven for not assuming that.



Even after the uncharacteristically shrewd move the Tool's force just made when it comes to attacking their siege, Ansom still doesn't get that none of this is what they usually see out of the Tool. That points to a somewhat irrational hatred of Stanley on Ansom's part and that's best chalked up to the reasons gone over on page 34.

But again though, the last turn saw a very out-of-character strategy from his foe followed up by a fairly complex formation designed in such a way that he uses up most of his move to get to a weak point where he can receive little back up from his air forces and little help from his main column. By now, somebody ought to have noticed that something is up.


So, after one attack selectively targeting the siege units, Ansom should suddenly intuit that a warlord has been summoned from a different reality and there's a huge paradigm shift? Especially when Ansom is already aware that Stanley is capable of an occasional shrewd trick? Is that from Clausewitz?

It's pretty easy to know that Ansom's facing something different when you get to read the comic. I've also been telling people in horror movies for years what stairs not to go down or up. I mean, why don't they hear the scary music when they start going into the cellar?





The past turn was nothing like the Stanley of old. If nothing else, that should be a sign that they should be cautious and wait for developments rather than plowing ahead. Ansom hasn't even considered that Stanley might have found somebody capable of leading his armies and that's who they're dealing with now.

So, in the space of one turn, Ansom should be able to assume that someone else is leading the show? If the last comic is any indication, he's much closer to that conclusion than anyone else. Vinnie was last seen offering desperation as an explanation for Stanley's sudden genius.

I guess these are my points:

1. Ansom is right about the trap being beyond Stanley. The argument that foaming, irrational hatred of Stanley led Ansom to the correct conclusion is bizarre.

2. Ansom is reaching the right conclusion, and the writing suggests familiarity with Stanley's history as a commander.

3. Berating Ansom for not realizing that something completely unprecedented and wildly improbable (the sound effect was "plot", was it not?) is happening seems to be much rougher on him than he deserves.

[ChowGuy]

Cloaking and invisibility are pretty big news and you'd think even an idiot would be whoring that all over. He may not be worth much tactically, but stanley isn't completely stupid when it comes to using his resources.
You'd be surprised. As others have pointed out invisibility does not generally exist in table-top or board games so experience there can be misleading. However in AoW - a hex based, turn based, title - "concealment" does exist but is it generally considered almost worthless, at least in on-line multiplayer, largely for reasons I cite below. Being terrain based, units that have it and cross unfavorable terrain while in the enemy's field of view reveal themselves, it is expensive yet easily defeated, and it is entirely useless against an all-seeing AI. Similar weaknesses in the Erfworld implementation could render it just minor there. It is however in the seemingly "minor" features that one can find an occasion killer exploit if one does not overuse it.


"Waitwaitwait. Time out. We can *veil* our troops?"

Most everyone here is taking that as indication that Ansom is even more screwed than he was. Most everyone is taking that as a sign that Ansom is assuming that the Dwagons must be there, veiled, and therefore is charging on ahead, further booping himself up by going fully into the trap. There have been a few notable exceptions, but most everyone here is speculating on exactly what magnitude of booposity that Ansom has buried himself into.

The same feeling occured to me, largely because of Parson's body language. The comic format is perhaps not the best for conveying verbal nuances, but visual nuances can easily be brought out, exagerated even, if the artist chooses, and Jamie's work here has shown a lot of that. Parson's stance shows neither the chagrin nor the elation of his "I am and idiot....He can't see us!" In the latter his arms are bent upward, fist slightly clenched in a victory pose.

Nor I think is it one of mere shock or dumbfounding at a new revelation. The pose I'd expect for that would be arms down and spread, finger bent slightly back, jaw slack and brow arched. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0067.html), the angle of the shot makes it difficult to see his face and the hair covers his brow, but the jaw appears more clenched - a sign of consternation. More importantly, the arms are down and spread, but the fingers look curled, almost as much as Anoms's in panel two. Add to this the "sweat" lines around emanating from his head - a staple comic convention for "Oh Noes!" and we get a picture of a deep concern.

Of course I may be reading more into the art then is there, and I have no idea how "veiling" - whatever his understanding of that term might be - can boop his current position, but I can't shake the notion that he smells something coming down the line that we have not as yet. Perhaps something to do with the tunnel attack? If "veiling" is a viable option, it's also a viable threat, and enemies could even now be sneaking through his perimeter.


Hmmm... in most wargames, that concept simply doesn't exist. Most computer games do have it, but they aren't usually hex-based and turn-based, so let's assume Erfworld is a boardgame.

See above, and further speculation below.

--------

A few random thoughts I've been accumulating

On "veiling"

We know very little about how it works, or even if its possible given Stanley's current setup.

The idea that it entails "invisible" troops attacking at will is quite an assumption. It's entirely possible though that "veiling" as opposed to "cloaking" is not an invisibility spell, but a means of camouflage. Perhaps active camouflage, like that used in the "Predator" movies, which works fine as long as the veiled unit is at rest, but less well when on the move. That would be fairly useless for anything except setting up an ambush within the FoW - exactly what Wanda suggests Ansom suspects, but something we assume Stanley does not normally attempt, else Ansom would have expected it.

Alternatively it might only work in terrain - such as heavy forest - where units can "hide" naturally, and rather then concealing the units per se, interferes with some scouting even by units within the same hex. At least by fliers, since if that's Ansom's thinking, he must have anticipated being able to "see" them once he entered the hex at ground.

Which raises the question "what units are/are not" affected? The problem of Lookamancers has already been raised, but in games with either invisible units or "concealment" abilities, there are usually "True Seeing" units as a counter. Usually clerics have it, and it may be inherent in Lofty Elves. They're not among Ansom's troop in the forest, but that would be an effective counter against surprise attacks.

It could also be, probably is, prohibitively expensive to cast and maintain. I could see where it might double the upkeep cost of a unit. For a large force, with a given income it would be a choice between a marginal tatical advantage, and having twice the number of units on hand. Since Stanley is also not keen on spending more Schmuckers then he needs to, that's another drawback.

Apparently its not been mentioned in any of the old combat logs Parson has been reading either, though he does say they're not terribly informative anyway. Altogether though, I don't think its nearly the game winning device that it might sound, and that's probably why neither Wanda nor Sizemore brought it up before.


On the "Trimancers"

We know little more about these. Do they have an auto-refresh, full-time over-view of the entire area of conflict, or can they only see a given section at a time? The display on page 60 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0066.html) suggests the latter. If they're not omniscient that makes tham a bit least useful. Still better at peering into the Fog them Ansom's scouts, but not the show stopper that has been proposed. It would be quite possible for Jillian to have escaped under such a setup, so her repeatedly doing so need not imply the coalition is ignorant of its existence.

What is their effective range from Gobwin Knob? If the previous battles were at a distance, they might not have been as easily able to look into/communicate with it. Thus, while Stanley may have had the setup for some time (we don't know how long though) it may not have been effective enough to say his inability to exploit fully it proves sheer incompetance. The Eyemancers also created the Eyebooks after all. Perhaps, like Ansom's hats, the communications ability they provide was all he had before. Still sufficient to justify the link-up, just again not a game winner per se.


On the Lake

Trivial, but the lake over which the Dwagons are flying does not appear to be the same one we see in Ansom's tactical map (http://www.partiallyclips.com/erfworld/blowups/BLOWUP_ansommap_800.jpg) Based on the position of the "weak hex" they are just beyond the fort, and almost directly opposite the column's line of march. The single lake hex shown on the tactical map however is almost in line with but much further to the side of the fort, and much closer to the column. Unless there's another "bluish" partial hex I'm missing there?

On Wanda and Jillian
Oh never mind. No point in beating that croaked equine. But Jillian still has a role to play, and may be the key to the final third of this story. And I don't mean as a Dea Ex Machina plucking Ansom from the Donut of Doom either.

[SteveD]

The 'veiling' is an interesting one, as it could mean any number of things.

My guess is that its a defensive move, much like garrisoning units in the Warhammer 40k second edition rules.

From what we've seen so far of elfworld mechanics, attacking units seem to strike first. What if veiling lets defending units strike first? With so many heavies in one hex, it could cost a LOT of dwagons to take Ansom down. It strikes me odd that he doesn't seem particularly concerned about his safety, despite everything Pason has archived. This likely means he's not in such a tight spot after all.

We all knew that somehow this wasn't going to go Parsons way, after all. Too early in the story for a big win.

[tainsouvra]

It is, however, exactly what you asked me for...if you can think of something else that would be more convincing, just let me know where the new goalposts are
No change in goalpost. My criteria included

a unit... remains stock still while a unit from the other side moves to it (1)

Your example was that of units moving and attacking, however you fail to demonstrate (definitively) the the defenders are simply standing/perching there waiting. That was an important part of the the criterion. That can never be demonstrated, regardless of whether or not it occurs. The argument can always be made that "they were doing something, it just wasn't being shown in that panel"...that makes your entire criterion a moot point, as it can never be met regardless of how much evidence is presented. I would request that you present a clearly provable/disprovable criterion that falls within the turn-based-combat genre so that we can continue (if you wish to continue, that is).


However, if you require further clarification, the intent was ideally to produce a sequence in which the defender appears in a panel as the same panel(s) as an approching attacker, taking no offensive action (figiting is OK) and in (a) subsequent panel(s) in the same relative position/stance while being attacked. I considered requiring the attacker completing his move for damage, but thought that too severe. Being in the same stance would prove nothing, as turn-based combat games generally show waiting units shifting in place and doing various idle and preparation animations--they simply don't do anything to the opposing side. Turn-based games don't show waiting units as statues, they simply don't show them moving very far or making any attacks that cause damage. Dragons raise their heads and spurt fire into the air or snap their jaws threateningly, archers fiddle with their quivers and shift in place, mages fiddle with scrolls and sometimes seem to be chanting--but they don't leave their assigned space and they don't cause damage to the enemy.

And honestly, even if the genre did what you describe (which it, again, does not) will that really prove anything? The only situation that I can think of in which it would be artistically good to show a unit approaching a defender is one in which it could be argued that the defender who remains completely still was if he were stoically waiting for the attacker's approach--which would be the same in both realtime and turnbased models. Remember, artistic license trumps the details of Erfworld as long as the outcome is not altered.

As much as I'm trying to counter your assertion that combat is realtime, I do not believe the example you request would prove my point, since it would be too easy to counter-argue that either strategy or artistic license demanded the defenders stay still rather than the actual game mechanics forcing it. If that would convince you, then I do hope that it is drawn at some point, but I know that were I in your shoes it would not convince me to change my stance (for the reasons I cited) so I cannot reasonable expect you to be convinced by something that would not convince me.


This corresponds to the opposing criteria "Show me a single frame in which units of both sides are shown taking damage" (or would if I enforced the "does damage"). This I believe I did, particularly in the case of arrows in flight even as a skewering attack takes place. The fact that the arrows cannot be seen hitting/missing their target and thus "doing damage" does not, I think, preclude the interpretation that the action of firing them takes place in the same turn as the action of skewering. It is an attack, one intended to do damage, that should suffice. A major turn-based combat game, Heroes of Might and Magic, disagrees with you. The graphic for a ranged attack can still be resolving on the screen while you enter the command for your next attack (or units can be taking a defense command, or they could be shifting back to the center of their square/hex, etc). Attacks initiate and have their outcome determined on your turn, but the graphic (or, in a comic, the art) can continue into the following turn if you're entering commands as soon as they're allowed.

In short, no, the arrows in flight but not causing damage prove nothing. The turn-based combat genre already allows that, so a comic based on that genre can do it as well without violating their own rules or even invoking artistic license.

(With regards to being entrenched, I am still willing to be convinced, not adamantly set in my own view. I do not find your evidence convincing, and thus do not agree with you, but had you been saying "it's definitely turn-based" instead of "it's definitely realtime" I probably would be arguing the other side, if less convincingly.)

[mrocktor]

We all knew that somehow this wasn't going to go Parsons way, after all. Too early in the story for a big win.
Are you kidding? His side is all but finished, the story needs him to win!

[ChowGuy]

Being in the same stance would prove nothing, as turn-based combat games generally show waiting units shifting in place and doing various idle and preparation animations
That's called "figiting" and yes, there are often whole libraries of animations for it. There are also animations of units taking defensive poses while attacked. But those differ from the animations used in attacking, or even retaliating within a turn. Hence the clarification "taking no offensive action (figiting is OK).

Its also why I said "pose/position" and not just pose. There are likewise lots of turn based (and a few real time) games that lack animations and merely move sprites about the board/screen. If a unit changes it's x-y position or[/i] it takes offensive action at the same time a unit from the other side is doing so, its not turn based. If not, it could still be not turned based (they just grin ignore you) but I said I [u]would still accept such artwork as proof of turned-ness, so I'm not entrenched either.

Round and round she goes, but where she stops only pclip knows. And he ain't talkin.

ETA:
BTW, I don't know if your comment about "arguing the other side, only less convincingly" was meant as thinking you'd be less convincing on the other side then the one you're on now, or you'd be less convincing then I am. I'd prefer to think the latter, but maybe that's just because my head is as nearly big as Ansom's. Figuratively, not in the "as drawn" sense.

[SteveD]

Your assuming that his side is going to win. :smallwink:

They are the bad guys, after all. Its not inconceivable that Parson would switch sides later into the story, assuming his link to Stanley can be broken safely.

But its certainly too early to kill-off Ansom considering all the ground-work already in place around his characterization.

And we don't know enough both tactically and about the mechanics of elfworld to know exactly how far up *bloop*-creek Stanley is, nor how important this engagement is in the strategic sense.