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Talya
2007-07-13, 07:38 PM
No, it's not real, ultimate power. Although they do flip out and kill people for no reason at all.

It's as cannon-fodder antagonists...by the dozen. Especially in my swashbuckling pirate campaign, as it provides evidence for that great, age-old debate that appeared on the internet about 4 years ago.

Ssiauhll
2007-07-14, 12:48 AM
I see you invoke the inverse ninja power law. It is a well known natural phenomena that the power of a group of ninjas is inversely proportionate to their numbers.



P= (n/#)*EL*R

Where N is the number of moles, # is the number of ninjas, EL is the effective encounter level, and R is the idea gas constant.

Kioran
2007-07-14, 02:39 AM
Ninjas > Pirates. Anyday.

JackMage666
2007-07-14, 02:43 AM
I will never understand the internet.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-14, 03:50 AM
Ninjas > Pirates. Anyday.

Except that the Pirates are backed by the Flying Spaghetti Monster. For the win! Ramen.

Skyserpent
2007-07-14, 04:21 AM
Robots and Cowboys totally Pwn Ninjas AND Pirates.

So there.

WhatIsGravity
2007-07-14, 04:27 AM
Ninjas don't have the charm that Pirates have.

Also, Narutards.

Renx
2007-07-14, 04:28 AM
http://www.frozenreality.co.uk/comic/bunny/index.php?id=17 <-- on the debate.

http://www.frozenreality.co.uk/comic/bunny/index.php?id=58 <-- be vewy vewy quiet

http://www.frozenreality.co.uk/comic/bunny/index.php?id=116 <-- getting there...

http://www.frozenreality.co.uk/comic/bunny/index.php?id=159 <-- second coolest thing ever.

Wraithy
2007-07-14, 04:52 AM
Also, Narutards.

you called? *laughs maniacally*
don't worry i do not own an orange tracksuit or a headband with a squigley thing on it.

the ninja class in d&d is amazingly good, sudden strike makes alot more sense than sneak attack (even if the latter is more powerful). and when combined with the great anime tradition of having a rediculously big sword it creates a potential of 4d6 damage as as a third level character. 6d6 on a crit with sudden strike, i've experienced the joy of this attack, when the DM tells you he's dead before you even roll for damage.
the ninja class lacks the lifespan of other classes, and although its fun at first, you don't get much when you level up, and you need to avoid the "cold removed killer" trap, because that basically makes you into an NPC.

as for pirates... they know how I feel about them :smallmad:

Kioran
2007-07-14, 05:13 AM
Ninjas don't have the charm that Pirates have.

Also, Narutards.

Naruto isnt even about Ninjas (well, superficiously, it is. But it isn`t).

And who needs charm when hes garotting the pirate before hes even reched for his cutlass? Who needs charm when they never see it coming? Hah!
Ninjas own. Your kidneys. Especially if you are a pirate.

The only thing the class needs to be even more awesome(I know, apart from dip-a-bility and twink-a-bility) are some move speed boost and some slow falling. Then theyd be the kings of mobility and second story artistry, which is awesome (btw.: lvl 20 monks with maxed jump and +2 Strenght have +49 on their jump checks with a running start, and this can easily be cranked up a bit. 15ft height anyone? Jumping right into second story is awesome - Wire-fu ftw.)

Skyserpent
2007-07-14, 05:23 AM
Naruto isnt even about Ninjas (well, superficiously, it is. But it isn`t).

And who needs charm when hes garotting the pirate before hes even reched for his cutlass? Who needs charm when they never see it coming? Hah!
Ninjas own. Your kidneys. Especially if you are a pirate.

The only thing the class needs to be even more awesome(I know, apart from dip-a-bility and twink-a-bility) are some move speed boost and some slow falling. Then theyd be the kings of mobility and second story artistry, which is awesome (btw.: lvl 20 monks with maxed jump and +2 Strenght have +49 on their jump checks with a running start, and this can easily be cranked up a bit. 15ft height anyone? Jumping right into second story is awesome - Wire-fu ftw.)

Ninjas have Naruto, Pirates have One Piece, both filled with crazy anime fanbois...

anyway according to statistics, yes, the Ninja is far better than the Swashbuckler. But then again, you can be any class and also be a pirate with ease. Ninja it's harder to pull off... But doable...

Armads
2007-07-14, 05:27 AM
the ninja class in d&d is amazingly good, sudden strike makes alot more sense than sneak attack (even if the latter is more powerful). and when combined with the great anime tradition of having a rediculously big sword it creates a potential of 4d6 damage as as a third level character. 6d6 on a crit with sudden strike, i've experienced the joy of this attack, when the DM tells you he's dead before you even roll for damage.

And then the party wizard fires off a scorching ray and laughs as he deals as much damage.

CyberWyld
2007-07-14, 05:31 AM
And then the party wizard fires off a scorching ray and laughs as he deals as much damage

I'm no D&D expert or anything, but I'm beginning to hate spell casters as of late. It seems that the really experienced players always play a wizard and they somehow manage to have every useful spell permacast on themselves with 30 something saves. I dunno...venting slightly, just saying.



hasta

Morty
2007-07-14, 05:45 AM
anyway according to statistics, yes, the Ninja is far better than the Swashbuckler. But then again, you can be any class and also be a pirate with ease. Ninja it's harder to pull off... But doable...

Couldn't Ninja be just Rogue with levels of Assasin?

Artemician
2007-07-14, 06:04 AM
Couldn't Ninja be just Rogue with levels of Assasin?

Exactly. The Ninja class.. well.. it could simply have been Rogue substitution levels. They're exactly the same.. for crying out loud...

Swooper
2007-07-14, 07:30 AM
Since I got CAdv, I've wanted to do a Ninja that gets the Dread Pirate PrC. Perhaps as a NPC, dunno.

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-14, 07:47 AM
Exactly. The Ninja class.. well.. it could simply have been Rogue substitution levels. They're exactly the same.. for crying out loud...

Nah, Ninja wishes it was exactly like Rogue. A 5th level Barbarian shuts down Ninja, simply because it can't sudden strike anything with Improved Uncanny Dodge.

Rogue can still sneak attack with a flanking buddy.

Spiryt
2007-07-14, 08:08 AM
Rogue can still sneak attack with a flanking buddy.

If he has 4 four levels more.

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-14, 08:15 AM
That doesn't change the fact that a 20th level ninja cannot sudden strike the barbarian.

Kaelaroth
2007-07-14, 09:07 AM
I'm no D&D expert or anything, but I'm beginning to hate spell casters as of late. It seems that the really experienced players always play a wizard and they somehow manage to have every useful spell permacast on themselves with 30 something saves. I dunno...venting slightly, just saying.



hasta


hehe... It's true. You don't even need to be experienced. Protection from arrows, fly, and greater invisibility - and you can effectively take over the universe. Provided you stay away from other spellslingers.

Talya
2007-07-14, 09:13 AM
Well, a subset of my level 3 quasi-evil party, including a gnomish swashbuckler/bard, a human swashbuckler/rogue, an Oriental Adventures Samurai/Warblade, and an elf druid are fighting my ninjas and kicking their butts (this despite the druid pretending to be an archer). My ninjas are named, I'm going to have to have them ghost step to come back to fight another day.

The ninjas are on an "Elite Array +1" (16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 9).

Lonkard: Level 3 Goblin Ninja, dual weilds shortswords.
Rarrlaff: Level 3 Goblin Ninja, dual weilds sai.
Moknaglo: Level 3 Goblin Ninja, dual weilds nunchaku.
Dallanat: Level 3 Goblin Ninja, weilds a quarterstaff.

And to keep the animal companion busy:
Carchy Jont, Level 3 Hobgoblin Ninja, weilds a big club.

Yes, I know. I'm an old World of Warcraft player, thinly veiled pop-culture references abound in my campaign. :)

Other recent pop-culture events:
"Calimport; Faerun's Seaport. You will not find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious."
"Frankie, I said NO camels. That there be FIVE camels; can't ye count?"
"You dense, irritating, miniature, beast of burden!"

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-14, 10:09 AM
Theres a Tortle race if you want an accurate representation of TMNT. It's in Dragon Mag #315.

Tengu
2007-07-14, 10:17 AM
Heh, nothing bad in puns, Talya. I had the players in my campaign fight thinly veiled Naruto, Sasuke and Sakura once - needless to say, those would-be ninjas were ridiculously weak.

Pirates versus ninjas... let's put Naruto and One Piece aside, but it's still tough call. Pirates have the awesome Jack Sparrow, but from what I've heard he's not as good in the third movie (I've only seen the first one...), and ninjas have Shadow and Yuffie...

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-14, 10:33 AM
Pirates win against Ninjas every single time. Why? Because a pirate is either A: On his ship. Or B: In a bar surrounded by his crew.

A ninja wouldn't be able to get close enough to a pirate to kill him, and attacking him on his ship would be tantamount to suicide.

In D&D, however, the ninja-class is mechanically superior to swashbuckler. Though that doesn't help the ninja from being a subpar class by itself.

Talya
2007-07-14, 10:37 AM
In D&D, however, the ninja-class is mechanically superior to swashbuckler. Though that doesn't help the ninja from being a subpar class by itself.

Swashbuckler isn't really meant to be a standalone class, I think. You multiclass it. My party has a swashbuckler/rogue (great multiclass with the "Daring Outlaw" feat or whatever it is), Swashbuckler/Bard, Swashbuckler/Beguiler...if you take more than 3 levels of swashbuckler, yeah, perhaps it's not great, but it's a great PrC for people who are going to be fighting aboard ships, because it's capable of being relatively tough (d10 hit die, high dex) and damaging (Full BAB, +int & str to damage) without the need for armor (because it's dex/int based rather than strength.) And armor is suicide aboard a ship. Even if they were single classed, a level 3 swashbuckler >>> a level 3 ninja.

Dervag
2007-07-14, 10:46 AM
P= (n/#)*EL*R

Where N is the number of moles, # is the number of ninjas, EL is the effective encounter level, and R is the idea gas constant.Therefore, dimensional analysis shows that Encounter Level is measured in units of:

[unit of Combat Power]K/J

where 'K' is for the kelvin, the fundamental unit of temperature equal to one degree Celsius, and 'J' is for the joule, the fundamental unit of energy.

Now we need a name for the fundamental unit of combat power. I submit that, in the tradition of the newton, the joule, the ampere, and the kelvin, that the unit of combat power should be named for someone exceptionally important in the development of the science of combat power.

Hmm... any suggestions?

ZeroNumerous
2007-07-14, 10:46 AM
When you compare two classes mechanically, you don't include a multi-class incident. Ascetic Stalker comes to mind about ninja-multiclassing. Plus, it has a Wisdom-synergy. If you could get your DM to allow a Monk fix, it might even be worth while to make a build around it. And no, a 3rd level swashbuckler dies to a 3rd level ninja. Ghost Step + Sudden Strike with a pair of short swords. Heck, even wasting a feat for Martial Weapon Prof: Greatsword would be acceptable.

The Demented One
2007-07-14, 10:55 AM
Now we need a name for the fundamental unit of combat power. I submit that, in the tradition of the newton, the joule, the ampere, and the kelvin, that the unit of combat power should be named for someone exceptionally important in the development of the science of combat power.

Hmm... any suggestions?
Duh. The Gygax.

Attilargh
2007-07-14, 11:03 AM
Or how about the Pun?

Sucrose
2007-07-14, 11:03 AM
Therefore, dimensional analysis shows that Encounter Level is measured in units of:

[unit of Combat Power]K/J

where 'K' is for the kelvin, the fundamental unit of temperature equal to one degree Celsius, and 'J' is for the joule, the fundamental unit of energy.

Now we need a name for the fundamental unit of combat power. I submit that, in the tradition of the newton, the joule, the ampere, and the kelvin, that the unit of combat power should be named for someone exceptionally important in the development of the science of combat power.

Hmm... any suggestions?

I submit the khan, for Khan the Destroyer, the creator of the almighty Pun-Pun. Other options that I can think of are the stormwind, for the creation of the Lancer and a few uber-charge builds, as well as the famous fallacy that he adjusted to roleplaying, the ghola for his many impressive anti-Pun-Pun builds, as well as the ability to play a psionic sandwich, and the caelic, for the Ten Commandments of Practical Optimization.

Mr. Gygax isn't really associated with optimization all that much, instead with evil ideas against the PCs, so I think that he wouldn't be the best choice for the unit of combat power.

Edit: Also, I believe that Ghola created save points for D&D, and that's all kinds of win.

Tengu
2007-07-14, 11:06 AM
Pirates win against Ninjas every single time. Why? Because a pirate is either A: On his ship. Or B: In a bar surrounded by his crew.

A ninja wouldn't be able to get close enough to a pirate to kill him, and attacking him on his ship would be tantamount to suicide.

In D&D, however, the ninja-class is mechanically superior to swashbuckler. Though that doesn't help the ninja from being a subpar class by itself.

I'd put it in a different way:

Pirates are not subject to the inverse ninja rule. Therefore, in a group combat, they always have an advantage, as their total strength grows while ninjas' remains the same.

What about a single pirate versus a single ninja though?

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-14, 12:01 PM
Psshh. Ninja have Mai Shiranui and Super Shinobi as their heritage. Seriously. You have the sexiest Kunoichi to ever grace a joystick(harhar), and the most badass Ninja in WHITE(yes, he's so badass and a hero, that he can go around in WHITE) as your parents, you are essentially descended from awesome and win.:smallbiggrin:

Who me, biased? I read MAD!:smallamused:

de-trick
2007-07-14, 01:18 PM
ninjas own because of this site

http://www.realultimatepower.net/index4.htm

does pirates have a sweet site like that no

kpenguin
2007-07-14, 01:24 PM
That doesn't change the fact that a 20th level ninja cannot sudden strike the barbarian.

Actually, Uncanny Dodge only prevents you from loosing your Dex bonus if you're caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. A ninja could still Sudden Strike an immobilized opponent. Of course, if you're immobilized, you have other things to worry about. Like a coup de grace, for example.

NEO|Phyte
2007-07-14, 01:36 PM
does pirates have a sweet site like that no

Pirates have The Best Page in the Universe.

(Link withheld due to language and other such things, Google "The Best Page in the Universe" if you want to see it.)

LurkerInPlayground
2007-07-14, 01:40 PM
Couldn't Ninja be just Rogue with levels of Assasin?
Thus summing up part of why I loathe Ninjas. To me, ninjas are just Japanese Rogues with an overly exaggerated reputation. This is entirely natural when you consider the strictly defined caste system of a warlike feudal culture (Japan). A fabled secret society of spies, assassins and tricksters probably just reflects the fears of the samurai ruling class. (Who could tolerate the existence of a bunch of sorcerous boogie-men who go about undermining the stability of your rule? May as well slaughter a few peasants on the charge that they're traitorous ninjas.)

Oh I know, Ninjas have evolved as an entirely seperate archetype from Rogue. Too many movies, video games and anime have been made about ninjas. But you see, my beef with the Ninja class is not entirely for reasons of "historical accuracy."

You see WOTC loves magic. And in making magic so explicit and commonplace, they've effectively killed its mystique. Even the Fighter-oriented manuals do little more than tack-on magical powers to a hack-and-slasher. In much the same sense, Ninjas are just Rogues with funny magical powers tacked-on.

I'd rather they just focus on adding more tactical and skill-oriented options for the nonmagical classes...because wizards, druids and clerics will always win the magical arms-race. Really, with each new manual, magic-classes get an ever-expanding arsenal of nukes to play with. Giving magical toys to nonmagical classes doesn't seem to fix this trend any. (How about a Barbarian PrC that gets spell resistance during a rage? "I loathe all practitioners of the Black Arts!" RAUGHHH!)

Personally, I'd prefer the Ninja to be an expansion of tacking-on newer Rogue options. Or in the very least, just a cultural PrC. No Ki-powers though. Ki-powers are stupid. I don't think Ki-powers of wuxia meshes well with the traditional fantasy settings of D&D. Just physical and mental abilities that are honed to such a point as to be nearly supernatural. At best, Ki should just be a cultural meme that tries to explain these abilities. (i.e. Hide in Plain Sight, Fast climbing, Parkour-like mobility, crazy dodging abilities, a very high Disguise bonus, ability to swim with armor, etc...)

Ninjas and Rogues should be scary not because they're magical, but because their enemies, for all intents-and-purposes, can tell no difference between deceit and magic. A guy who can sneak past your brutish knights, slip past your traps, strip your pajamas off of you in your sleep, make love to your wife and rob you blind at the same time doesn't need actual arcane powers to impress. The Rogue that does this is leading a charmed existence and is the stuff that legends are made of anyway. Adding mystical powers is just a tacky way of making him seem mysterious. (Assassin spells I don't mind so much though since it just tells us that the assassin is a resourceful guy with a steely intelligence.)

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-14, 02:29 PM
Pirates have The Best Page in the Universe.

(Link withheld due to language and other such things, Google "The Best Page in the Universe" if you want to see it.)

Pfft. Maddox is an overrated egomaniac. He wouldn't last 10 seconds away from his PC.

LurkerInPlayground
2007-07-14, 03:49 PM
Pfft. Maddox is an overrated egomaniac. He wouldn't last 10 seconds away from his PC.
Or he plays an overrated egomaniac.

Also:
http://shop.gameamp.com/modules/store/product_images/148_2.jpg

Ninjas and pirates can bite it.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-14, 09:40 PM
Maybe I should market a T-shirt that says "Ninjas do it without being seen.":smallbiggrin:

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-07-14, 10:43 PM
Historical Ninjas = Rogue

Anime/Video Game Ninjas = Ninja class or Swordsage

bugsysservant
2007-07-14, 10:51 PM
Historical Ninjas = Crappy thugs

Historical Pirates = Kickass

Seriously, has there ever been a dread ninja Roberts? I rest my case. And for awesome pirate webpages this is all that is needed. The percentage of my life I have spent here this is in the mid to high double digits.

http://cristgaming.com/pirate.swf

CyberWyld
2007-07-14, 11:05 PM
The only thing the class needs to be even more awesome(I know, apart from dip-a-bility and twink-a-bility) are some move speed boost and some slow falling. Then theyd be the kings of mobility and second story artistry, which is awesome (btw.: lvl 20 monks with maxed jump and +2 Strenght have +49 on their jump checks with a running start, and this can easily be cranked up a bit. 15ft height anyone? Jumping right into second story is awesome - Wire-fu ftw.)

There are also some "Legendary Forms" in the Quit. Monk from 2nd edition I believe. They can be adapted for 3.5 fairly easily. But there was a form called the "Tan-Wui" which translates to springy legs, it would bacially add+20 to your jump checks. Pretty sick. It takes a long time to train it and you must give up experience for it. But pretty awesome stuff. I was able to do some pretty amazing things with my ranks and that form at later lvl's with my monk. Might give it a look.



Hasta

Roog
2007-07-14, 11:13 PM
I see you invoke the inverse ninja power law. It is a well known natural phenomena that the power of a group of ninjas is inversely proportionate to their numbers.

P= (n/#)*EL*R

Where N is the number of moles, # is the number of ninjas, EL is the effective encounter level, and R is the idea gas constant.

So if each Ninja rides a mole...

skywalker
2007-07-15, 01:16 AM
Maybe I should market a T-shirt that says "Ninjas do it without being seen.":smallbiggrin:

Which is my beef with Ninjas, why in HELL would you want to do it without being seen? Who would want to run up the wall, jump off, and stab you, all while invisible? What's the POINT if you're not visible? You might as well just walk up and stick a (DB)fireball in his pants.

@bugsy: NICE!


Lurker is correct, the Rogue is one of the coolest arch-types, ninjas are over-blown(just like monks). Daring Outlaw rogue/swashbucklers are awesome. Mystical eastern powers should've died with the CW-samurai.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-07-15, 01:42 AM
Ninjas and Rogues should be scary not because they're magical, but because their enemies, for all intents-and-purposes, can tell no difference between deceit and magic. A guy who can sneak past your brutish knights, slip past your traps, strip your pajamas off of you in your sleep, make love to your wife and rob you blind at the same time doesn't need actual arcane powers to impress. The Rogue that does this is leading a charmed existence and is the stuff that legends are made of anyway. Adding mystical powers is just a tacky way of making him seem mysterious. (Assassin spells I don't mind so much though since it just tells us that the assassin is a resourceful guy with a steely intelligence.)

Exactly. It would be very nice if it were possible to build that kind of super-rogue without magic, and build it in a way that the single-classed wizard can't do better, but the only reason to have a rogue (in an optimized game) is to deal with traps that you can't afford to send a summoned monster into to "disarm."

As it is, though, wizards are so far ahead of everyone else that you can't make them equal through any amount of messing with numbers (multiply the fighter's HP and damage by a factor of 10, and a Balor will still render him useless and his mage ally will still likely render him redundant for the whole second half); you need entirely new abilities. Ninja adds that (then takes away enough from the rogue to make it into an NPC class); ToB adds that. Of course, the ninja stuff is labeled "magic," and the ToB stuff walks like magic, quacks like magic, and hangs around with magic (but only about a third of it is, by discipline; it emulates magic only because magic works and little else does, IMHO).

Of course, this isn't a ToB or Wizards vs. everyone else thread.

Now, the archetypal image of a ninja vs the archetypal image of a pirate? Situational. I like the pirate better, but, unfortunately, pirates drink way too much rum, so the ninja would be able to sneak past and kill their captain, assuming he's alone. Groups of ninjas always attack with brute force, which would wake up the pirates, and pirates have cannons. So, if we have a swarm of ninjas charging a pirateship (ninjas can run on water), they eat broadsides.

Also: So ninjas are actually a gas. That explains a lot. I'll second the Ghola for the unit of combat power.

ByeLindgren
2007-07-15, 01:47 AM
Historical ninja actually protected the places they inhabited from pirate attacks. It didn't take long for pirates to figure out which places to avoid, honestly. Still, I'll take pillaging the townsfolk to collecting extortion fees any day.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-15, 04:19 AM
Which is my beef with Ninjas, why in HELL would you want to do it without being seen? Who would want to run up the wall, jump off, and stab you, all while invisible? What's the POINT if you're not visible? You might as well just walk up and stick a (DB)fireball in his pants.

You want to be seen doing it, segue out to the Wu Tang Clan PrC. :smalltongue:

Otherwise, for me, it involves the guy being hanged from a string, that after enough struggling, triggers one of those big balls that splits and releases confetti and a gigantic banner.:smallbiggrin:

Wraithy
2007-07-15, 06:50 AM
ah but a ninja can be a respectable citizen by day, completely innocent of all crimes (unless they find you're black leotard, then run like a little b*tch).
but a pirate:
Generic_NPC1: is that a Johnny Depp lookalike?
Generic_NPC2: kill him.

also ninjas doing it unseen is one of the best things about them, the more time you're out in the open shouting "GARRR, me wuyfe left me fer a member 'o' th' town GARRR-d", the more likely you'll be hit by a fireball.
but then again, a toothless mouth is good for... oh wait, children use this forum :smallwink:

Ninja Chocobo
2007-07-15, 07:55 AM
Therefore, dimensional analysis shows that Encounter Level is measured in units of:

[unit of Combat Power]K/J

where 'K' is for the kelvin, the fundamental unit of temperature equal to one degree Celsius, and 'J' is for the joule, the fundamental unit of energy.

Now we need a name for the fundamental unit of combat power. I submit that, in the tradition of the newton, the joule, the ampere, and the kelvin, that the unit of combat power should be named for someone exceptionally important in the development of the science of combat power.

Hmm... any suggestions?

I'd like to a name based around LordofProcrastination. Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=587555) is a links page to some of the most overpowered builds in D&D history. Many of these were created by him.

SITB
2007-07-15, 08:17 AM
I'd submit the idea that the "Pun" is actually a unit of Combat power which is thus: (unit of Combat Power)^infinity=Pun.

Dervag
2007-07-15, 09:56 AM
I submit the khan, for Khan the Destroyer, the creator of the almighty Pun-Pun.In which case we would measure combat power in khans. Since the 'khan' also invokes Ghengis Khan, who certainly had lots of combat power, and Khan from Star Trek, I'd say it's the winning candidate.

The problem being that ECL is based on a logarithmic scale: increasing ECL by one increases the creature's ability to defeat enemies by a factor of the square root of two. Logarithms don't interface well with units. I didn't think of this until two minutes ago.

So, to preserve the linearity of combat power, we will have to tweak the Roog equation:

[combat power] = (n/#)*(2^(EL-1))*R

where N is the number of moles, # is the number of ninjas, EL is the effective encounter level, and R is the ideal gas constant.

Thus, applying the definition of the 'mole' (the mole is a counting unit, used much as the 'dozen' is used, equal to 6.02*10^23), we conclude that:

If there is one mole of ninja altogether, and there is only one ninja present, and that ninja has an EL of one, then that ninja has 0.0821 khans of combat power.

That doesn't sound very impressive. But wait!

Clearly, the idea of a mole of ninjas (almost a trillion trillion ninjas) is absurd. Such a mass of ninjas would collapse into a spherical blob under its own gravitational pull almost immediately. So the number of moles must clearly refer to the number of atoms of ninja.

Now, assuming that the chemical composition of ninjas is roughly the same as that of ordinary human beings, the average atomic mass of the atoms in a ninja's body is 14.65 grams per mole of atoms. So a ninja with 0.0821 khans of combat power would weigh only 14.65 grams, and therefore be a very small ninja. A ninja so small might be two-fisted death from the perspective of a mouse, but would have difficulty engaging larger enemies even with the assistance of ninja powers.

Now, let us assume that the average ninja is 1.8 m tall, of medium build, and in prime physical condition. If so, then the MetLife insurance company's ideal weight table indicates that the ninja should have a mass of 70 to 76 kg. Splitting the difference gives us an average ninja mass of 72.99 kg, or nearly five thousand moles of ninja (4982 moles, to be precise).

So much ninja will be much more powerful than the lightweight 14.65 gram 'standard ninja', possessing a power of 409 khans.

So we conclude that the average 1st level ninja should have a combat power of 409 khans.

As another example of the calculation, the Modified Roog Equation shows that the average 10th level ninja, assuming the same mass as the 1st level ninja given above, will have a power level of "over 9000" khans.

(9254 khans, to be precise).

bugsysservant
2007-07-15, 10:39 AM
Clearly, the idea of a mole of ninjas (almost a trillion trillion ninjas) is absurd. Such a mass of ninjas would collapse into a spherical blob under its own gravitational pull almost immediately. So the number of moles must clearly refer to the number of atoms of ninja.

Now, assuming that the chemical composition of ninjas is roughly the same as that of ordinary human beings, the average atomic mass of the atoms in a ninja's body is 14.65 grams per mole of atoms. So a ninja with 0.0821 khans of combat power would weigh only 14.65 grams, and therefore be a very small ninja. A ninja so small might be two-fisted death from the perspective of a mouse, but would have difficulty engaging larger enemies even with the assistance of ninja powers.

Not bad, but you forgot one crucial blunder: assuming ninjas have the same physical characteristics as the rest of us. Ninjas actually have the ability to temporally shift their probabilistic mass forward through the space time continuum, while retaining any intrinsic power associated with the wave form patterns.This means that ninjas during fights are exceptionally light, while retaining any ninja powers they may have had, alowing superhuman wuxia moves. As soon as the fight is over, however, the inevitable wave form collapse occurs, resulting in exceptionally heavy, uncool ninjas who lie on the floor, struggling to breathe beneath their immense mass. Talented ninjas have been known to kill themselves after prolonged fights, immediately collapsing into compact "neutron ninjas", or even "ninja holes"

Pirates, on the other hand, don't suffer this fate, as their kickass-ocity (k) is intrinsic, not a quantum mechanical trick, as they are composed entirely of pirateons, which are able to contain record amounts of combat prowess, far in excess of what a ninja would be able to contain without the inevitable death.:smalltongue:

Dervag
2007-07-15, 12:33 PM
Not bad, but you forgot one crucial blunder: assuming ninjas have the same physical characteristics as the rest of us. Ninjas actually have the ability to temporally shift their probabilistic mass forward through the space time continuum, while retaining any intrinsic power associated with the wave form patterns.This means that ninjas during fights are exceptionally light, while retaining any ninja powers they may have had, alowing superhuman wuxia moves. As soon as the fight is over, however, the inevitable wave form collapse occurs, resulting in exceptionally heavy, uncool ninjas who lie on the floor, struggling to breathe beneath their immense mass. Talented ninjas have been known to kill themselves after prolonged fights, immediately collapsing into compact "neutron ninjas", or even "ninja holes"But in that case, the Roog Equation tells us that ninjas actually have a lower power level during a battle, because of their reduced mass.

That doesn't make any sense. I contend that, rather than shifting their mass forward, they shift their combat power backward, drawing on their future awesomeness to fuel their present awesomeness. This would give them superior fighting moves (just like reducing their mass would), and would also explain why talented ninjas might kill themselves after prolonged fights: the ninja draws so much of their combat power from the future that they don't have any left after the battle, and are thus easily defeated by such feeble opponents as airborne bacteria and oxygen molecules.

Wraithy
2007-07-15, 12:43 PM
the ninja draws so much of their combat power from the future that they don't have any left after the battle, and are thus easily defeated by such feeble opponents as airborne bacteria and oxygen molecules.

its no secret that ninjas have DR 50000000/oxygen molecules

bugsysservant
2007-07-15, 12:51 PM
But in that case, the Roog Equation tells us that ninjas actually have a lower power level during a battle, because of their reduced mass.

That doesn't make any sense. I contend that, rather than shifting their mass forward, they shift their combat power backward, drawing on their future awesomeness to fuel their present awesomeness. This would give them superior fighting moves (just like reducing their mass would), and would also explain why talented ninjas might kill themselves after prolonged fights: the ninja draws so much of their combat power from the future that they don't have any left after the battle, and are thus easily defeated by such feeble opponents as airborne bacteria and oxygen molecules.

"Ninjas actually have the ability to temporally shift their probabilistic mass forward through the space time continuum, while retaining any intrinsic power associated with the wave form patterns."

They shift their mass forward, while essentially stripping it of its power related benefits. If they had the ability to siphon probabilistic power off from their futures, they would be invincible, since any given future has a non zero probability for infinite power. Thus no combat between ninjas could ever be resolved since both would be omnipotent. This is clearly not the case, so ninjas must merely shunt their mass forward to create a more favorable power/mass ratio.

Note: even when you account for the calculus (as power approaches infinite, probability approaches zero), the effect is negligible, since the difference in probabilistic future power would generally be very small, not as noticeable as in ninja fights.

Seffbasilisk
2007-07-15, 01:15 PM
Ninja-Pirate. The shadow that comes in the night and goes 'Arrrr'.

bugsysservant
2007-07-15, 01:25 PM
Ninja-Pirate. The shadow that comes in the night and goes 'Arrrr'.

A pirate is already a dangerous predator; what benefit is there in breeding it with a smaller, weaker, less frightening creature?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0322.html

Dervag
2007-07-15, 02:19 PM
"Ninjas actually have the ability to temporally shift their probabilistic mass forward through the space time continuum, while retaining any intrinsic power associated with the wave form patterns."

They shift their mass forward, while essentially stripping it of its power related benefits. If they had the ability to siphon probabilistic power off from their futures, they would be invincible, since any given future has a non zero probability for infinite power. Thus no combat between ninjas could ever be resolved since both would be omnipotent. This is clearly not the case, so ninjas must merely shunt their mass forward to create a more favorable power/mass ratio.

Note: even when you account for the calculus (as power approaches infinite, probability approaches zero), the effect is negligible, since the difference in probabilistic future power would generally be very small, not as noticeable as in ninja fights.You can easily posit power curves for ninjas that give them a nonzero chance of obtaining functionally infinite power, but which nonetheless have a finite area under the curve.

Alternatively, the ninja is well aware that his body is not able to contain infinite combat power without modifications that have not yet taken place, and therefore cannot draw on infinite reserves of future combat power even if such reserves are available.


A pirate is already a dangerous predator; what benefit is there in breeding it with a smaller, weaker, less frightening creature?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0322.htmlYou consider ninjas to be less frightening than pirates?

Pirates who defeat you in battle may try to recruit you, or simply rob you blind. Ninjas will just kill you.

horseboy
2007-07-15, 03:08 PM
http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html
I've never seen anything about a "I wanna run around in my pj's day" All though that would be cool.

But anyway, we must learn the lesson of Snake eyes and Shipwreck. It is possible for Pirates and Ninjas to coexist on the same team.

bugsysservant
2007-07-15, 03:14 PM
You can easily posit power curves for ninjas that give them a nonzero chance of obtaining functionally infinite power, but which nonetheless have a finite area under the curve.

While they are possible, the quantum mechanics I refer to may not allow it, and while you can theorize all you want about possiblilites, I was just being conservative in my estimation about power, so yes, they could obtain functionally infinite power. But if you don't allow calculus to cancel out logical infinites, than we just end up living Zeno's paradoxes, assuming we can somehow circumvent the paradox of universal nihlism. Only by allowing finite division combined with calculus have scientist and philosophers ever been able to make sense out of what we experience.

Zeful
2007-07-15, 03:34 PM
The problem with the ninja/pirate debate is that the ninja can't really lose from a historical sense. All ninja/pirate interactions are of three variants.

#1: Ninja observes target pirate from obscurity. Learning patterns and when he's most vulnerable. Ninja sneaks in at time of vulnerability and kills pirate (or alternatly orchistraits target pirate's death.

#2: Opposite gendered ninja joins pirate crew by seducing the target pirate, waits for alone time and kills with most beneficial means to keep cover (commonly poison inflicted through violent contact).

#3: Ninja kills through paranioa, letting him/herself be seen in every port, sends notes to the target letting him know he's been targeted and points out the futility of escape. Making token attempts to kill him through various attacks that he can't prove were attacks (lighting the target's room on fire with a cigar and rum accelerant and the like.) The target will start becoming jumpy and will lash out at shadows eventually causing his death.

This is because ninja tactis specify not fighting on one's opponents on their terms, they fight when the pirate's guard is down, and don't say "It's never down" because it's a blatant lie, they have to sleep too you know. The ninja attack philosiphy is about subtlety over raw power, tactics are paramount, this translates into 'a ninja with no plan is a dead ninja.' With the extensive use of tactics and research, a ninja is very similar to batman, except a ninja never engages the unknown, somebody else does.

That is not to say pirates never use tactics, but pirate tactics aren't on the same level of analysis that ninja ones are. With the level of waiting and information gathering ninjas do, they can attack with deadly presicion with a very small window of oppritunity, and succeed.

Thus ninja > batman > pirate.

bugsysservant
2007-07-15, 04:14 PM
The problem with the ninja/pirate debate is that the ninja can't really lose from a historical sense. All ninja/pirate interactions are of three variants.

#1: Ninja observes target pirate from obscurity. Learning patterns and when he's most vulnerable. Ninja sneaks in at time of vulnerability and kills pirate (or alternatly orchistraits target pirate's death.

#2: Opposite gendered ninja joins pirate crew by seducing the target pirate, waits for alone time and kills with most beneficial means to keep cover (commonly poison inflicted through violent contact).

#3: Ninja kills through paranioa, letting him/herself be seen in every port, sends notes to the target letting him know he's been targeted and points out the futility of escape. Making token attempts to kill him through various attacks that he can't prove were attacks (lighting the target's room on fire with a cigar and rum accelerant and the like.) The target will start becoming jumpy and will lash out at shadows eventually causing his death.

This is because ninja tactis specify not fighting on one's opponents on their terms, they fight when the pirate's guard is down, and don't say "It's never down" because it's a blatant lie, they have to sleep too you know. The ninja attack philosiphy is about subtlety over raw power, tactics are paramount, this translates into 'a ninja with no plan is a dead ninja.' With the extensive use of tactics and research, a ninja is very similar to batman, except a ninja never engages the unknown, somebody else does.

That is not to say pirates never use tactics, but pirate tactics aren't on the same level of analysis that ninja ones are. With the level of waiting and information gathering ninjas do, they can attack with deadly presicion with a very small window of oppritunity, and succeed.

Thus ninja > batman > pirate.

You, like so many before, have given ninjas godlike abilities based on bad wuxia movies. Your #1 is probably the worst as it boils down to "ninja kills pirate automatically" Here are the alternate scenarios.

1. Ninja watches pirate. Pirate sees ninja. Pirate kills ninja.

2.Hmmm... A quick trip to wikipedia shows "Ninjas were limited exclusively to males," And pirates were overwhelmingly so. Seduction would not be the way to go here.

3.Ninja attempts to instill paranoia. Pirate sees ninja. Pirate kills ninja.

In any of the above situations, the ninja would fail, or at the very least, sacrifice his own life, when he entered the ship. He is totally isolated, and forced to play by the pirate's rules, since he is on his territory. And escape isn't an option. Pirates weren't stupid. If you take on a new crew member, and the first day out the captain is found stabbed to death, who are they going to blame? And thats assuming the pirate automatically gets killed by the ninja.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-15, 04:17 PM
2.Hmmm... A quick trip to wikipedia shows "Ninjas were limited exclusively to males," And pirates were overwhelmingly so. Seduction would not be the way to go here.


Both ninjas and pirates are gay, so it works :smallbiggrin:

Green Bean
2007-07-15, 04:23 PM
Both ninjas and pirates are gay, so it works :smallbiggrin:

Well, not quite... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situational_homosexuality)

Zeful
2007-07-15, 05:16 PM
You, like so many before, have given ninjas godlike abilities based on bad wuxia movies. Your #1 is probably the worst as it boils down to "ninja kills pirate automatically" Here are the alternate scenarios.
Not really, the concept of a ninja is an assassin trained to think first to deal with all problems before hand not as they show up. Ninja were also capable to disguise themselves like the commonfolk rather effectievly. Ninja rarely work alone they, had unit configurations. A point to make is many black op procedures were based of the ninja/assassin mythology, i.e. those bad wuxia movies. Lets look at your alternate senarios:

1. Ninja watches pirate. Pirate sees ninja. Pirate kills ninja.
For this to work there has to be some indication that the civilian in question was a ninja. If he was then he was a sucky ninja and the rest of the unit sighs and continues observation. Otherwise the pirate goes about his business and get killed in his sleep, or the next time he duels someone, his opponent has a poisoned weapon, killing the pirate from a 'lucky shot' that just nicked him.

2.Hmmm... A quick trip to wikipedia shows "Ninjas were limited exclusively to males," And pirates were overwhelmingly so. Seduction would not be the way to go here. Point, I really shouldn't have wrote that but it could still work.


3.Ninja attempts to instill paranoia. Pirate sees ninja. Pirate kills ninja. For the paranoia route to be effective, the concept of powerlessness is introduced to the victim. The perpetrator is always just out of reach, no matter how hard they try the victim can never feel 'safe' enough to let their guard down. Even in your situation, pirare may have thought he killed the ninja but his face keeps showing up everywhere (the wonders of makeup) placing doubt in the target, these doubts make him less sure in other areas in his life (hopefully at the least.) And he starts making mistakes one of which may be fatal, or life threatening.


In any of the above situations, the ninja would fail, or at the very least, sacrifice his own life, when he entered the ship. He is totally isolated, and forced to play by the pirate's rules, since he is on his territory. And escape isn't an option. Pirates weren't stupid. If you take on a new crew member, and the first day out the captain is found stabbed to death, who are they going to blame? And thats assuming the pirate automatically gets killed by the ninja.
No pirates weren't stupid, but they had a weakness, their ship. If it get's sufficently damaged/depleated, it's has to go into port to be repaired/restocked. That is the greatest opening for a ninja, bombs continue to damage the ship at night/whenever the quards laxest.
Also you make the assumption that ninja must get abord the ship to do the killing, and inherent fallacy. Ninja philosophy is about attacking when one is weakest and unprepared, not when the target is prepared and expecting it.

Further more ninja are assassins while pirates are swashbuckling warriors of the seas. An good assassin never gives ground to make a kill. If the target is back in a month a ninja waits the month while preparing the room the target will be sleeping in. Even arraging that the target get the room in the first place. The ninja will plan for every contingency, including if the target doesn't leave the boat or shows up two or three months late. This level of meticulous planning creates a trap that the pirate, having no idea it's there, walks right into, and gets killed.
This is by no means an auto-kill. If the target pirate was insomniatic that day or was a light sleeper, he could kill the ninja with no real effort as the pirate is a better fighter, stronger, faster, and much more direct. This is why it's really balanced, because a ninja's plan may be perfect, but one mistake will get the ninja killed or ruin the op. But they undertand when to make the kill or not.

In nearly every situation the ninja will win, but not because of weird powers from bad movies, but from careful clandestine observation.

Dervag
2007-07-15, 05:44 PM
While they are possible, the quantum mechanics I refer to may not allow it, and while you can theorize all you want about possiblilites, I was just being conservative in my estimation about power, so yes, they could obtain functionally infinite power. But if you don't allow calculus to cancel out logical infinites, than we just end up living Zeno's paradoxes, assuming we can somehow circumvent the paradox of universal nihlism. Only by allowing finite division combined with calculus have scientist and philosophers ever been able to make sense out of what we experience.Note that 'functionally' infinite power may nonetheless be finite. Power sufficient to accomplish any task we can readily imagine is functionally infinite from our perspective, but this does not mean it is infinite in fact. I should have specified this before, but I assert that ninjas can not acquire truly infinite power.

Chuck Norris admits no rivals.


Thus ninja > batman > pirate.Why do you hold that ninjas are superior to Batman?

Ninja Chocobo
2007-07-15, 05:46 PM
2.Hmmm... A quick trip to wikipedia shows "Ninjas were limited exclusively to males,"

Well, there were Kunoichi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunoichi), while not specifically "Ninjas", were essentially the same thing, only female.

Zeful
2007-07-15, 07:13 PM
Why do you hold that ninjas are superior to Batman?

Because Batman can, and has, rushed off into situations he knows nothing about and gotten beaten, he always came around and won but he's gone in knowing just the name of his enemy.

Ninja on the other hand sets the target up to see what his capabilities are, so that they may make their plans to kill the target as presice as possible. They don't rush into something without knowing a lot, room size, number of occupants, exits/entrences, presumed skill level of enemies, leathality of weapons carried by both sides, what's in the room.

That is why ninja are superiour to Batman, they don't rush in to any situation. They know they've got time to kill the mark, and they use it. Then again Batman doesn't have that kind of time.

WhiteHarness
2007-07-15, 07:41 PM
Ninja on the other hand sets the target up to see what his capabilities are, so that they may make their plans to kill the target as presice as possible. They don't rush into something without knowing a lot, room size, number of occupants, exits/entrences, presumed skill level of enemies, leathality of weapons carried by both sides, what's in the room.

...and you know all this because of which primary historical sources now? What secret texts do you have access to that inform you about how ninja were trained in history? Can you prove that they bothered to learn about room size, enemies' skill levels, etc? Or are these nothing but assumptions on your part, based on your idiosyncratic mental image of what a ninja is?

You're laying the positive ninja stereotypes on pretty thick here. Your argument mostly boils down to "Ninja are badasses who never make mistakes." Ninja are every bit as human and folly-prone as pirates.

In all seriousness, I suspect that a good deal of the badassery that modern ninja fanboys ascribe to ninja are more likely to be inspired by modern fiction than genuinely verifiable historical fact.

Dervag
2007-07-15, 09:32 PM
Ninja on the other hand sets the target up to see what his capabilities are, so that they may make their plans to kill the target as presice as possible. They don't rush into something without knowing a lot, room size, number of occupants, exits/entrences, presumed skill level of enemies, leathality of weapons carried by both sides, what's in the room.

That is why ninja are superiour to Batman, they don't rush in to any situation. They know they've got time to kill the mark, and they use it. Then again Batman doesn't have that kind of time.So in other words, because you consider it axiomatic that ninjas never act rashly or on the basis of false information and never underestimate an opponent, you believe that ninjas are superior to Batman.

I do not agree with your axiom; I find it to be dubious proposition. I will freely concede that there are quite probably some ninjas tougher than Batman who are better at preparing their attack before moving in. But I do not think it reasonable to claim that all ninjas are that good.

bugsysservant
2007-07-15, 10:16 PM
...and you know all this because of which primary historical sources now? What secret texts do you have access to that inform you about how ninja were trained in history? Can you prove that they bothered to learn about room size, enemies' skill levels, etc? Or are these nothing but assumptions on your part, based on your idiosyncratic mental image of what a ninja is?

You're laying the positive ninja stereotypes on pretty thick here. Your argument mostly boils down to "Ninja are badasses who never make mistakes." Ninja are every bit as human and folly-prone as pirates.

In all seriousness, I suspect that a good deal of the badassery that modern ninja fanboys ascribe to ninja are more likely to be inspired by modern fiction than genuinely verifiable historical fact.

Thank you. I read that, and had a list of reasons why he was wrong, when I literally lost the will to argue, hit back and went on with my life. It warms my heart to see someone concisely state almost exactly what I had in mind.

horseboy
2007-07-15, 10:49 PM
Both ninjas and pirates are gay, so it works :smallbiggrin:

"I wanna sing and dance! I wanna wear tight, shinny buckles on me tight, shinny pants. I wanna sing and dance!"

Knight_Of_Twilight
2007-07-16, 12:36 AM
Historical Ninjas = Crappy thugs

Historical Pirates = Kickass

Seriously, has there ever been a dread ninja Roberts? I rest my case. And for awesome pirate webpages this is all that is needed. The percentage of my life I have spent here this is in the mid to high double digits.

http://cristgaming.com/pirate.swf

Um...You know Japan has plenty of folklore about really awesome ninjas, right? Goemon, Hanzo Hattori, Jubei Yagyu, The Iga and Koga clans, just to name a few. Thats sort of an Ethno-Centric argument.

skywalker
2007-07-16, 02:10 AM
He's batman. The G-D Batman. All arguments posited in relation to a statement that places ninjas above batman lose all credibility.

Batman wins.

I'm with the dude who brought up the shipwreck-snake eyes example. Or think about the Metal Gear Snakes, they're ninja pirates, with just the right amount of both. That's the win, right there.

Either way, the ninja class still sucks, and all this math is making my head hurt.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-16, 05:57 AM
The problem being that ECL is based on a logarithmic scale: increasing ECL by one increases the creature's ability to defeat enemies by a factor of the square root of two. Logarithms don't interface well with units. I didn't think of this until two minutes ago.
Sure they do. Works fine for decibels.

But I second the Gygax as a unit of measurement, first because he's an actual creator as opposed to some internet meme, and second because without him there wouldn't be any optimization.

Dervag
2007-07-16, 08:10 AM
Sure they do. Works fine for decibels.

But I second the Gygax as a unit of measurement, first because he's an actual creator as opposed to some internet meme, and second because without him there wouldn't be any optimization.Yes, but if we use the khan as the unit of measurement, we get to name it after
a)The developer of Pun-Pun
and
b)Ghengis Khan.

AtomicKitKat
2007-07-16, 08:27 AM
Psst. The Ninja doesn't even have to be smarter than Batman. 2 words. Hard Liquor. Another 2 words. Brain Damage. The Ninja will always outsmart the Pirate. Unless he attacks the Pirate in the head.:smallbiggrin:

Zeful
2007-07-16, 03:39 PM
...and you know all this because of which primary historical sources now? What secret texts do you have access to that inform you about how ninja were trained in history? Can you prove that they bothered to learn about room size, enemies' skill levels, etc? Or are these nothing but assumptions on your part, based on your idiosyncratic mental image of what a ninja is? Yes it is and I've no clue how ninja were trained. But look at it this way, say you are a ninja. You've been hired to kill somebody (they were assassins) are you going to go in unprepared and half-cocked and die. Or are you going to sit back and test your information against the real guy and see how what you need to kill him/her/it. Me myself, I'd learn as much as I can about my target and his life, get inside his head, so I can determine if I can kill him, or defer this job to someone better, or if I am capable of the deed, what'll I need to do, be it poison, an attack in a dark alley, attacking him in his sleep, do I need to frame someone else so to disuade investigation etc.

This isn't just ninja fanboyism, this is an analyis of the assassin mindset. A good assassin, which ninja as a whole were, never goes into a situation without information, they test their information against the real target subtlely, and observe. A good assassin knows enough to say, "I'm going to die without killing my target in a direct confritation so I'll try something else." and back off, paitence is an important part of the assassin (and thus ninja) mindset.


You're laying the positive ninja stereotypes on pretty thick here. Your argument mostly boils down to "Ninja are badasses who never make mistakes." Ninja are every bit as human and folly-prone as pirates.
No ninja make mistakes, but as with any military organisation, the training must allow the trainee to learn from mistakes so they do not make them on the field. Flaws in logic and perception are drilled out through repeated instruction. This type of training continues in modern military academies now. Because of the assassin archetype the training a ninja must recieve to be effective is considerably more than any normal soldier. They have to learn to hide in a crowd, how to mimic peasant styles, what poisons do what, how to portray a non-aggressive body language and so on. So the level of training gives the ninja more advantages. Pirtates have less training and aren't trained to look everywhere for threats, that's why they lose, not cause their stupid.

Lolzords
2007-07-16, 03:47 PM
Ninjas > Pirates. Anyday.

BYAAAH > YAARGH

Indon
2007-07-16, 04:09 PM
That is why ninja are superiour to Batman, they don't rush in to any situation. They know they've got time to kill the mark, and they use it. Then again Batman doesn't have that kind of time.

So Batman wins by simply becoming aware of the Ninja before they actually strike, because he is sufficiently effective enough to win even with minimal preparation time while the Ninja aren't.