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kjones
2007-07-13, 11:08 PM
One of my players plays a ranger who likes to bull rush. I mean, she really likes to bull rush. So when this situation came up in our last game, I wasn't quite sure how to handle it.

The party was fighting some goblins, pretty standard stuff. One was attacking the party bard, so to protect her, the ranger made a bull rush against the goblin. With size modifiers and Improved Bull Rush all added together, the ranger's roll exceeded the goblin's roll by 18 or so. So she pushed it back five feet, and, per RAW, has the option of pushing it back up to another 15 feet.

Problem was, the goblin was 5 feet away from a wall, so those extra 15 feet would have all been into the wall. It seemed to me that shoving this goblin so hard ought to do some damage, but I couldn't find anything in the rules that specified damage for bull rushing an opponent into a solid object. I house-ruled that the bull rushed creature takes 1d4 damage for every 5 feet "moved" into the wall, so since the goblin could have been moved an additional 15 feet when he hit the wall, he took 3d4 damage.

Are there actual rules to cover this situation? Is my house rule reasonable? Too much damage? Too little? Will I regret its introduction?

Whiplord
2007-07-13, 11:19 PM
I believe there's a feat somewhere that allows for damaging a target that has been bullrushed into a solid object, but I'm afraid I can't tell you more than that.

As for the house rule, if you're just looking to simplify things, it seems fairly reasonable.

Quietus
2007-07-13, 11:26 PM
I'd probably have used d6's, or just their unarmed damage. Now that I think about it, the unarmed damage would make sense.

Lolth
2007-07-13, 11:32 PM
Dungeon Crasher is an optional Fighter ability found in Dungeonscape.

It replaces 2nd and 6th Level bonus Feats and basically lets you do as you described, for 4d6+2xStr Bonus or 8d6 (at 6th).

Quite nasty. I love Bull Rushing, so I am planning to make a PC using it one dat.

It's just that it's rare to nail people up against a wall, I think. I could be wrong. Has happened before. :P

Damionte
2007-07-13, 11:41 PM
I don't have a hard and fast rule for this. As i'll change the damage based on circumstances, but I generally let them do thier unarmed damage plus another 1d6/distance amount. Those dice vary depending on the situation.

But because it's kinda rare to get that hit in I don't mind tossing in a bit of extra damage. Or some other kind of reward. Like a slight stunn so the opponent takes a penalty to attack or defense or somethign for their next round.

Like I said, i don't do it the same in every situation.

ndragonsbane
2007-07-14, 02:32 AM
I don't know where I got this from, though I think it was a spell or special ability somewhere that gave me this idea:

If something gets bull-rushed into an object I treat it as if the person who initiated the rush fell on the target and treat the extra distance as the distance fallen. Ex: The ranger bull-rushes a goblin and is able to move it 15', the goblin is next to a wall however so for every 200lbs of bull-rushing ranger the goblin the goblin takes 1d6 damage per 10'; in this case only 1d6 since the goblin didn't move 20'.

Yeah, that's complicated, but bull-rushing can't deal much more damage than falling on someone. As an extra bonus, since bull-rushing is not simply flinging dead weight around, I'd say it'd make sense to add either your STR mod or maybe even 1 1/2 STR to the damage (not something I've done before but I like it).

JackMage666
2007-07-14, 03:01 AM
I was considering making a Dungeon-Crasher Bull-rush fighter. Thought it'd be cool to smash some things against walls.

Icewalker
2007-07-14, 03:22 AM
Sounds like a perfect situation to toss in a simple house-rule fix.

I don't think one should need a feat to smash someone into a wall. The damage you suggested sounds good to me. I'll probably use that if it ever comes up.

And my players will probably get to know bull-rush quite well, what with all the opportunities to shove people off the sides of boats in my sea-based campaign. :smallbiggrin:

Matthew
2007-07-14, 06:23 PM
I wouldn't have it cause damage. Instead, I would treat it as a reverse failed Bull Rush, i.e.


If you fail to beat the defenderís Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space.

So, I would just have him fall prone in this case.

Drider
2007-07-14, 06:43 PM
i'd use d6's instead, cause that is the "normal" amount of damage from say "falling, and its the same concept, just that you're also being "pushed" into the wall and its a differant way

Zeta Kai
2007-07-14, 06:57 PM
I'd stick to d4's, as you are not using an ideal weapon (unless you are proficient with using walls against you opponent). I think that the damage should cap out at about 5d4; after all, you're not going to do much more damage after about 25'. Also, I'd add you Strength bonus (if any) to the final damage total; it's gotta count for something.

Belteshazzar
2007-07-14, 07:07 PM
An odd possibility to get around the lack of walls to bullrush one's opponents into would be to get an item of airwalking and bullrush people from above straight into the ground. Then try to carry your opponents into the air and drop them on other enemies.

thehothead
2007-07-14, 07:13 PM
That is made of three different types of awesome.

Bassetking
2007-07-14, 07:25 PM
I'd stick to d4's, as you are not using an ideal weapon (unless you are proficient with using walls against you opponent). I think that the damage should cap out at about 5d4; after all, you're not going to do much more damage after about 25'. Also, I'd add you Strength bonus (if any) to the final damage total; it's gotta count for something.

The Ideal Weapon.

http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/fr/franklin-street-hockey-sticks.jpg

PaladinBoy
2007-07-14, 07:37 PM
An odd possibility to get around the lack of walls to bullrush one's opponents into would be to get an item of airwalking and bullrush people from above straight into the ground. Then try to carry your opponents into the air and drop them on other enemies.

Would you believe I had a character that did something like that? It was on the deck of an airship; my character was standing on the forecastle, which was 10 feet above the main deck, and a harpy flew past 10 feet above the main deck. My character jumped out, and used gust of wind as a spell like ability right above the harpy. Harpy fails Fort save, I roll 6 for 30 feet straight down into the deck. WHAM!

Not too much damage, and I took falling damage for landing on the main deck, but it did put the harpy within range of the druid's dire wolf's +17 or something grapple check. Plus the stunned faces of my gaming group were awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Burrito
2007-07-14, 08:14 PM
Sounds like a perfect situation to toss in a simple house-rule fix.

I don't think one should need a feat to smash someone into a wall. The damage you suggested sounds good to me. I'll probably use that if it ever comes up.

And my players will probably get to know bull-rush quite well, what with all the opportunities to shove people off the sides of boats in my sea-based campaign. :smallbiggrin:

We had a campaign that for several meetings had us on a ship. One tactic we had that worked very well was this. We had a dude with a ring of water walking, as soon as were were into battle with another ship he would jump over the side and run to the other boat. He would run around the base of the enemy boat and start smacking holes in the side at the water level (he had a Maul of the Titans), he would also make sure to run to the back of the ship and smash up the rudder so they couldn't steer. Our DM was actually impressed we came up with this and he extened the Seafareing part of the adventure to see how it worked in other battles. it worked great! There were a lot of possibilities. After that our group made sure at least one party member had a Ring of Water Walking

Ninja Chocobo
2007-07-14, 09:57 PM
This reminds me of an idea I came up with.
Spread out a Portable Hole over a tower shield. Then Bull Rush them. This should make them fall into the Hole. Then complete your turn by smashing it against the wall, preventing escape. Next turn, you drop your shield (free action), and fold up the Hole (should be less than a full-round action). Unless they don't need to breathe, they'll be dead in ten minutes.

Dervag
2007-07-14, 10:02 PM
That's... that's...

that's horrible.

[shudder]

Belteshazzar
2007-07-14, 10:20 PM
Better yet for quick extermination place spikes in the portable hole and a trap of cloudkill, because anything is better with magic. If it simply must be killed and cloudkill wont work use the portable hole/ bag of holding combo for handy equivalent of a planer garbage disposal. If you don't have a bag of holding then or don't want to risk personal injury then a rivet gun or sovereigns glue should be applied to the shield to prevent escape.

Armads
2007-07-15, 01:50 AM
If it simply must be killed and cloudkill wont work use the portable hole/ bag of holding combo for handy equivalent of a planer garbage disposal.

Eh, he doesn't die from it. The bag is sucked into the void and forever lost. But it's better than killing him, because he'll be unreachable, and impossible to resurrect (still alive).

Premier
2007-07-15, 06:32 AM
Personally, I would rule against HP damage of any kind. 1d4 damage is a dagger stab - pushing someone against a wall shouldn't do anything like that, let alone something several times as serious. Instead, I'd just rule that the goblin is now winded, giving it a penalty to defense and preventing it from attacking in the next round.

Yuki Akuma
2007-07-15, 06:48 AM
Personally, I would rule against HP damage of any kind. 1d4 damage is a dagger stab - pushing someone against a wall shouldn't do anything like that, let alone something several times as serious. Instead, I'd just rule that the goblin is now winded, giving it a penalty to defense and preventing it from attacking in the next round.

Have you ever been thrown against a wall with enough force to send you sailing twenty feet? That's quite a lot of energy you're hitting that solid surface with, there.

Lolth
2007-07-15, 10:01 AM
You're not actually sending someone sailing 20' or any feet over 5. When you get to Bull Rush someone for more than 5', you go with them, so it's more a question of bullying them along.

I'd be hesitant to accord too much damage, in order not to nerf the Fighter ability, though using the appropriate weapon (hockey stick!) I could see club/quarterstaff damage. Maybe a bit more if cross-checking or spearing.

skywalker
2007-07-15, 12:02 PM
You're not actually sending someone sailing 20' or any feet over 5. When you get to Bull Rush someone for more than 5', you go with them, so it's more a question of bullying them along.

I'd be hesitant to accord too much damage, in order not to nerf the Fighter ability, though using the appropriate weapon (hockey stick!) I could see club/quarterstaff damage. Maybe a bit more if cross-checking or spearing.


Still, it's a hell of a lot of force.

The hockey analogy is not quite accurate(although it's ridiculously awesome! Yay hockey!) for several reasons.

1. Those (glass)boards are flexible. They bend, in some cases severely. Now, the solid portion of the boards does not bend, which is why it's a severe penalty to hit someone into the lower boards(boarding).

2. Hockey players are wearing "armor" designed to withstand that sort of impact. It's like the armor as damage reduction variant. They're wearing hammerblock armor, effectively. Now, for a dude in full plate, they've got enough padding in there, but for a goblin in leather(studded leather if he's lucky), that's just not the case.

3. Hockey players have been training for most of their lives for hockey. Most start skating at the same time as walking, and they're playing youth hockey soon after. By the time they hit the crushing hits of the NHL, they've been smacked into the boards(and smacking others) for 10-12 years. This is not the case for your average goblin. So he doesn't know how to soften the blow, or move to avoid part of the hit.

Therefore, I'd say 1d6 per 5' of movement. Moving somebody back 20ft takes alot of force. It's the same as falling damage, and the amount of damage taken by someone shunted by a failed teleportation spell, an explosive spell, etc.

Yuki Akuma
2007-07-15, 12:11 PM
Falling damage is 1d6/10', not 5'.

skywalker
2007-07-16, 02:00 AM
Falling damage is 1d6/10', not 5'.


Ah, I was mainly talking about the dice type. I'm well aware that it's per 10', not 5'. However, falling is you being accelerated by gravity, whereas being slammed into a wall involves another character's weight carrying you into it and smushing you against it. Which I think means more damage. Especially since this guy knows how to deal maximum damage when running you into that wall.


Just my two cents, tho...

Triggerhappy938
2007-07-16, 02:07 AM
DnD, along with most tabletop, doese not have really good rules for employing your enviroment in such a way while fighting. I've always wanted to be able to just grab an opponents skull and slam it into a wall, personally.

Fawsto
2007-07-16, 02:10 AM
If the goblin was removed from ground during bullrush, damage it like it was a same distance fall. Like 1d6 per 10 ft. On This case, 1d6.

If you dont want to make this very dangerous, make it non-lethal damage.

Observe tht this is only possible by 2 things: 1) a incredible high success 2) The goblin is a smaller foe.

Now, this is nothing to do with RAW, ok?

skywalker
2007-07-16, 04:39 PM
DnD, along with most tabletop, doese not have really good rules for employing your enviroment in such a way while fighting. I've always wanted to be able to just grab an opponents skull and slam it into a wall, personally.


I used devastating throw(ToB maneuver) and told my DM I picked up a kobold and threw it through a chair into a wall. He's cool with us describing our own actions, and thought it was cool(I also got major awesome points.)

skeeter_dan
2007-07-16, 07:37 PM
I agree with several of the posters: treat it like falling damage and make it 1d6/10 ft. There's an Artifact Spell in Secrets of Xen'drick that does something similar, though it throws the person up into the air (or a ceiling, which is where the damage would occur) instead of sideways into a wall. Heck, I'd be tempted to make it 1d6/5 ft. to account for the charge. 1d4/5 ft. is certainly an acceptable solution.

Person_Man
2007-07-16, 07:43 PM
I use 1d6 damage for every 10 feet you're Bull Rushed into an object, which is exactly the same as falling damage.

If you want to see Bull Rush abuse, look at the Knockback feat from Races of Stone. Grants a free Bull Rush with every attack. Google "Flaming Homer the Bowling Ball of Doom" and you'll see what I mean.