Arcane Paladin (PEACH)

[Squiddish]

So, I decided to make a paladin oath in the spirit of the Arcana Domain. And so, without further ado, the Oath of Enlightenment (https://docs.google.com/document/d/10_t4EhrYpI4szbfFX1tDbTaM_-6Sb_o6NQGZIBKJcA4/edit?usp=sharing).

Please give your honest feedback, specifically with the capstone. I'm not terribly happy with where it is now.

[Artagon]

My first gut-check reaction was OMG that's powerful.

Oath spells:
Shield, Absorb Elements
Blur, Detect thoughts
Clairvoyance, counterspell
Divination, Greater Invisibility
Bigby’s hand, Animate Objects

Counterspell is absolutely on point.. but I don't understand the rationale behind invisibility, blur, animate objects, shield, and absorb elements. I can see expressions of force, like bigby's hand, I can certainly understand divination type abilities, though detect thoughts is somewhat questionable to me.. but giving paladin a bunch of wizard abjuration spells sucks away some of what makes Eldritch Knight good. Don't do it, other than counterspell and maybe dispel magic.

Greater Arcana.. is better than one of the defining abilities of Bard, Magical Secrets. You are letting them choose any spell from any list and you aren't limiting the number of times they can do it per day, unless you meant to make it a Channel Divinity option? In which case it's slightly better.. but still more powerful than other channel divinity abilities out there.. How about if Greater Arcana uses a bonus action and your Channel Divinity to give you a +2 to the DC of the next spell you cast?

Aura of Competence - Is far too broad and is again better than a bard's ability to motivate his allies. Pick one thing to improve and don't make it a numeric advantage. Personally I'd make it more magic flavored.. like instead of benefiting allies, what if it gave disadvantage to enemies within the aura on saves vs spells?

Immortal Know-it-all - You are now requiring either the GM or Player to keep copious notes or just giving the player an excuse to metagame "I go to the Library of Alexandria and I flip through all the pages of every book during my downtime". This needs to be a more defined ability that isn't open to interpretation. What if instead you give them a more limited version of the wizard's 'Arcane Recovery'? Maybe just let them recover 4 spell levels when they take a short rest once per day.

Arcane Force - This is way overboard. Take a look at 'Elder Champion'.. which is arguably one of the most amazing caster style capstones. Now look at what you have. Yours lasts 10 minutes vs Elder Champion's 1 minute. Yours lets them cast Destructive Wave every round for 60 rounds, Elder Champion allows them to cast Destructive Wave as a bonus action twice. That's not including the fact that you are giving them a 9th level spell and full access to whatever spell they want of 5th level or lower, I was just digging from the pally list. This needs a total overhaul.

[Squiddish]

My first gut-check reaction was OMG that's powerful.

Oath spells:
Shield, Absorb Elements
Blur, Detect thoughts
Clairvoyance, counterspell
Divination, Greater Invisibility
Bigby’s hand, Animate Objects

Counterspell is absolutely on point.. but I don't understand the rationale behind invisibility, blur, animate objects, shield, and absorb elements. I can see expressions of force, like bigby's hand, I can certainly understand divination type abilities, though detect thoughts is somewhat questionable to me.. but giving paladin a bunch of wizard abjuration spells sucks away some of what makes Eldritch Knight good. Don't do it, other than counterspell and maybe dispel magic.

Shield seemed logical, since it gives a good magical defense from an early level. Invisibility is meant for surprise attacks, etc. Animate objects is basically just because I was out of ideas, and detect thoughts was mostly there for flavor. Most of the other abjuration spells could be replaced.


Greater Arcana.. is better than one of the defining abilities of Bard, Magical Secrets. You are letting them choose any spell from any list and you aren't limiting the number of times they can do it per day, unless you meant to make it a Channel Divinity option? In which case it's slightly better.. but still more powerful than other channel divinity abilities out there.. How about if Greater Arcana uses a bonus action and your Channel Divinity to give you a +2 to the DC of the next spell you cast?

Yeah, it's channel divinity. Sorry if that wasn't clear. It's meant to give more spellcasting capability, but I can see how it might be overpowered even then.


Aura of Competence - Is far too broad and is again better than a bard's ability to motivate his allies. Pick one thing to improve and don't make it a numeric advantage. Personally I'd make it more magic flavored.. like instead of benefiting allies, what if it gave disadvantage to enemies within the aura on saves vs spells?

Because the auras are meant to buff, and the other auras are pretty strong. Aura of Devotion gives straight up immunity to charm and Aura of Warding gives resistance to all spells. Also, I made a mistake, it is not supposed to apply to damage rolls.


Immortal Know-it-all - You are now requiring either the GM or Player to keep copious notes or just giving the player an excuse to metagame "I go to the Library of Alexandria and I flip through all the pages of every book during my downtime". This needs to be a more defined ability that isn't open to interpretation. What if instead you give them a more limited version of the wizard's 'Arcane Recovery'? Maybe just let them recover 4 spell levels when they take a short rest once per day.

Its meant as an equivalent to the OotA's Undying Sentinel, but I intended the "remember anything" to be almost a ribbon. Maybe add a time limit, like one month or one year?


Arcane Force - This is way overboard. Take a look at 'Elder Champion'.. which is arguably one of the most amazing caster style capstones. Now look at what you have. Yours lasts 10 minutes vs Elder Champion's 1 minute. Yours lets them cast Destructive Wave every round for 60 rounds, Elder Champion allows them to cast Destructive Wave as a bonus action twice. That's not including the fact that you are giving them a 9th level spell and full access to whatever spell they want of 5th level or lower, I was just digging from the pally list. This needs a total overhaul.

Oops. That was supposed to be one minute. And again, the capstone is the feature that needs the most work.

[Artagon]

Shield seemed logical, since it gives a good magical defense from an early level. Invisibility is meant for surprise attacks, etc. Animate objects is basically just because I was out of ideas, and detect thoughts was mostly there for flavor. Most of the other abjuration spells could be replaced.


Shield is logical, but they already have Shield of Faith, and having Shield steps on the toes of the other Melee caster, EK. Now the Paladin has both the best on-call spell slot usage for both melee offence (Smite) and melee defense (Shield). Since it's basically a knowledge protector/worshiper I might do something a bit more like:

Oath spells:
Comprehend Languages, Identify
Detect thoughts, See Invisibility
Clairvoyance, Counter-spell
Divination, Confusion
Bigby’s hand, Commune <- I might consider Awaken instead of Bigby's Hand.. Adding intellice to something seems like it could be in their wheel-house.

Basically, as a knowledge based oath, I'd want to give the paladin more exploration tier options. Paladin already has a lot of good combat stuff.


Yeah, it's channel divinity. Sorry if that wasn't clear. It's meant to give more spellcasting capability, but I can see how it might be overpowered even then.

Maybe you can use it to gain access to a cantrip of any class for 1 minute? This would lend some pretty powerful utility without giving them things like free Cloudkill.


Because the auras are meant to buff, and the other auras are pretty strong. Aura of Devotion gives straight up immunity to charm and Aura of Warding gives resistance to all spells. Also, I made a mistake, it is not supposed to apply to damage rolls.

Here's the thing.. look for other class options that give bonuses to attack or skill checks.. You won't find many other straight up bonuses.. mostly because 5e is balanced not to have them in spades. Paladin Oath of Devotion has the only straight +cha to attack.. and it uses their Channel Divinity and gets it for 1 minute. Yours grants not only the attack to you, but to everyone else close by AND it grants skill bonus, which only the Bard could do up to now using bardic inspiration. Even removing the damage bonus it is still too powerful.

I'm aware that Aura of Warding is powerful.. but look at it this way, how many spells are you or your allies getting hit by per round? How many attacks per round are you and your allies making? I guarantee more attacks are happening than spells that can be saved against in 90% of fights. Just because the other Auras are protective that doesn't mean they HAVE to be. Heck, Oath of Vengeance completely avoids having the extra Aura in favor of Relentless Avenger.

I'm looking forward to seeing what changes you end up making, don't be afraid to think outside the box, just make sure that you take a hard look at other abilities out there that grant similar bonuses to avoid unbalancing the game.

[ClintACK]

My first reaction is unfair, but from the title I was hoping to see a complete rebuild of the Paladin to an arcane spell list rather than a divine one. Like an Eldritch Knight upgraded to half-caster instead of one-third-caster.

Getting past that... the fluff and the crunch seem to be at odds with one another.

My first take is that it's weird to build a lover-of-knowledge archetype where Intelligence probably has to be a dump stat. Your powers are all based off Charisma, spells off Wisdom, and as a melee fighter you need Constitution and either Strength or Dex (or maybe both).

And until you get the 15th level power, none of the powers seem to relate to a love of learning and defense of knowledge.

It feels like you were torn between making an Arcane Paladin and making a Librarian/Archeologist Paladin. Spells like Shield, Counterspell, and Bigby's Hand are perfect for the former. For the latter, I'd expect spells like Identify, Comprehend Languages, Locate Objects, Speak with Dead... Legend Lore.

Looking at it as a Sorcerer-Charisma-Arcane Paladin build... Greater Arcana and Arcane Force fit the idea, but then Aura of Competence and Immortal Know-it-all don't seem to fit.

So... all of that boils down to getting a clearer picture of what the Arcane Paladin is supposed to be and do.


To the crunch...

Trying to "break" the game with the powers:


Greater Arcana: Do you mean to change the casting time of any spell to one action? There are a number of spells that are only balanced because of the long casting time -- usually because they're meant to only be cast outside of combat. (Example abuses: Popping up a Leomund's Tiny Hut after you've been ambushed. Or casting Teleportation Circle to run away in the middle of combat.)
Greater Arcana: A Sorcerer 17/Arcane Paladin 3 is now getting a free 9th level spell from any list every short rest. Probably ought to base it off Paladin level alone.
Aura of Competence: I like the idea of this. It's flavorful. But I worry about the addition to every attack roll. It seems to break Bounded Accuracy. Would it stack with Bless or replace it? And "any ability check" means Initiative, contests like grappling and shoving, skills like stealth and passive perception, and even the Arcane Paladin's use of Counterspell. It feels like a permanent double-powered Bless and Guidance combined and applied to you and all your allies forever with no cost in actions, spell slots, or concentration. Not sure how to fix this.


The upper level powers look fine -- in part because 20th level characters are *supposed* to break the world. :) Are you supposed to roll twice on the wild surge table for every spell you cast using the power, or just when you invoke the power to begin with?

[Squiddish]

Shield is logical, but they already have Shield of Faith, and having Shield steps on the toes of the other Melee caster, EK. Now the Paladin has both the best on-call spell slot usage for both melee offence (Smite) and melee defense (Shield). Since it's basically a knowledge protector/worshiper I might do something a bit more like:

Oath spells:
Comprehend Languages, Identify
Detect thoughts, See Invisibility
Clairvoyance, Counter-spell
Divination, Confusion
Bigby’s hand, Commune <- I might consider Awaken instead of Bigby's Hand.. Adding intellice to something seems like it could be in their wheel-house.

Basically, as a knowledge based oath, I'd want to give the paladin more exploration tier options. Paladin already has a lot of good combat stuff.

That looks good. I had actually forgotten about shield of faith.


Maybe you can use it to gain access to a cantrip of any class for 1 minute? This would lend some pretty powerful utility without giving them things like free Cloudkill.

Oh, true. Maybe extend it so they can pick a spell or cantrip, with spells counting as prepared?


Here's the thing.. look for other class options that give bonuses to attack or skill checks.. You won't find many other straight up bonuses.. mostly because 5e is balanced not to have them in spades. Paladin Oath of Devotion has the only straight +cha to attack.. and it uses their Channel Divinity and gets it for 1 minute. Yours grants not only the attack to you, but to everyone else close by AND it grants skill bonus, which only the Bard could do up to now using bardic inspiration. Even removing the damage bonus it is still too powerful.

I'm aware that Aura of Warding is powerful.. but look at it this way, how many spells are you or your allies getting hit by per round? How many attacks per round are you and your allies making? I guarantee more attacks are happening than spells that can be saved against in 90% of fights. Just because the other Auras are protective that doesn't mean they HAVE to be. Heck, Oath of Vengeance completely avoids having the extra Aura in favor of Relentless Avenger.

I'm looking forward to seeing what changes you end up making, don't be afraid to think outside the box, just make sure that you take a hard look at other abilities out there that grant similar bonuses to avoid unbalancing the game.

True, I'm not sure what I want to do here. I don't want an aura that debuffs enemies, but at the same time this current one is very, very strong. Maybe make it so they gain proficiency in one thing, paladin's choice every long rest?


My first reaction is unfair, but from the title I was hoping to see a complete rebuild of the Paladin to an arcane spell list rather than a divine one. Like an Eldritch Knight upgraded to half-caster instead of one-third-caster.

Getting past that... the fluff and the crunch seem to be at odds with one another.

My first take is that it's weird to build a lover-of-knowledge archetype where Intelligence probably has to be a dump stat. Your powers are all based off Charisma, spells off Wisdom, and as a melee fighter you need Constitution and either Strength or Dex (or maybe both).

And until you get the 15th level power, none of the powers seem to relate to a love of learning and defense of knowledge.

It feels like you were torn between making an Arcane Paladin and making a Librarian/Archeologist Paladin. Spells like Shield, Counterspell, and Bigby's Hand are perfect for the former. For the latter, I'd expect spells like Identify, Comprehend Languages, Locate Objects, Speak with Dead... Legend Lore.

Looking at it as a Sorcerer-Charisma-Arcane Paladin build... Greater Arcana and Arcane Force fit the idea, but then Aura of Competence and Immortal Know-it-all don't seem to fit.

So... all of that boils down to getting a clearer picture of what the Arcane Paladin is supposed to be and do.


To the crunch...

Trying to "break" the game with the powers:


Greater Arcana: Do you mean to change the casting time of any spell to one action? There are a number of spells that are only balanced because of the long casting time -- usually because they're meant to only be cast outside of combat. (Example abuses: Popping up a Leomund's Tiny Hut after you've been ambushed. Or casting Teleportation Circle to run away in the middle of combat.)
Greater Arcana: A Sorcerer 17/Arcane Paladin 3 is now getting a free 9th level spell from any list every short rest. Probably ought to base it off Paladin level alone.
Aura of Competence: I like the idea of this. It's flavorful. But I worry about the addition to every attack roll. It seems to break Bounded Accuracy. Would it stack with Bless or replace it? And "any ability check" means Initiative, contests like grappling and shoving, skills like stealth and passive perception, and even the Arcane Paladin's use of Counterspell. It feels like a permanent double-powered Bless and Guidance combined and applied to you and all your allies forever with no cost in actions, spell slots, or concentration. Not sure how to fix this.


The upper level powers look fine -- in part because 20th level characters are *supposed* to break the world. :) Are you supposed to roll twice on the wild surge table for every spell you cast using the power, or just when you invoke the power to begin with?
It's the knowledge seeker, but with a focus on arcana. The fluff is very much subject to change, but the overall goal is to have a paladin equivalent of the knowledge and arcana domains, just as Devotion sort of acts as a parallel to light and life and fey acts as a parallel to nature and trickery.

Greater Arcana is a channel divinity, and yes, its meant to be paladin level alone but I will be probably changing it anyways.
Aura of competence will probably be changed to just one ability.