Mountain Dwarf Bard of Lore

[Arkhios]

Just trying to sort out my thoughts on this matter.

I had a dwarf bard in a Pathfinder campaign once (I believe it was Crimson Throne), but the game fell dead and forgotten. The character, however, was too fun to let go, and I thought maybe I should try and build and add him to my "character reserve" for a unknown future game at an unknown time.

He was a very extraordinary dwarf. Highly charismatic unlike the rest of his kin usually are (iirc, I rolled an 18 which I put into Charisma which had a racial -2 penalty)

His specialty of performance was oratory and limericks, and would incite anger from his foes and amusement among his friends in the thick of battle with his insults disguised as limericks. Basically taunting enemies and lifting spirits in fight. I think this would suggest College of Lore with Cutting Words.

I seem to recall that he swung an axe or a hammer into combat as he was quite a strong fellow and would face his enemies head on - like a self-respecting dwarf would.

I may or may not roll stats for him at a later point but in the meantime, let's use 27-point buy as a basis. I was thinking something like this:

Str 16, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 14

I would say it's probable that I would start as a Fighter and wear heavy armor, maybe even a shield - although a maul is very tempting choice as well, then advance to at least 6th level in bard, before deciding a further course.

1. Fighter1
2. Bard1
3. Bard2
4. Bard3
5. Bard4
6. Bard5
7. Bard6

Any suggestions to what should I do with this build? Fighting Styles, ASI, etc. Let's assume AL legality so that it won't get too obscure.

[hymer]

Any suggestions to what should I do with this build? Fighting Styles, ASI, etc. Let's assume AL legality so that it won't get too obscure.

Boring, I know, but: You won't get full use out of that strength score from level 5 on. You lack Extra Attack or something of the sort to make your melee viable in the long term. How about heading for pal6/bardX? That ought to do the trick.

[Arkhios]

Boring, I know, but: You won't get full use out of that strength score from level 5 on. You lack Extra Attack or something of the sort to make your melee viable in the long term. How about heading for pal6/bardX? That ought to do the trick.

I could take Booming Blade from Additional Magical Secrets though, but I see your point.

Would you suggest I took +2 to strength then? (Or, assuming I played this in a game that uses AL rules, at 4th level, ditch fighter altogether, change stats to Str 17, Dex 8, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 14; and pick Heavily Armored feat for an 18 strength and heavy armor)

Edit: I don't see this character as a Paladin at all, and I have too many character concepts that involve paladin levels so I would prefer a different approach this time.

[hymer]

I could take Booming Blade from Additional Magical Secrets though, but I see your point.

Would you suggest I took +2 to strength then? (Or, assuming I played this in a game that uses AL rules, at 4th level, ditch fighter altogether, change stats to Str 17, Dex 8, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 14; and pick Heavily Armored feat for an 18 strength and heavy armor)

Edit: I don't see this character as a Paladin at all, and I have too many character concepts that involve paladin levels so I would prefer a different approach this time.

I think we're missing each other. I was claiming that investment in strength is rather wasteful on this character. I can certainly see why you'd do it for flavour, but game technically you'd probably do better investing those points elsewhere, because you won't be attacking very much. Sure, Booming and Greenblade has you hit at least with your str modifier, I han't thought fo that.
Same sort of thing with taking mountain dwarf and starting fighter. Mountain dwarf gives you proficiency in armour, but fighter armour is already heavy. For fluff, cool, but for mechanics, redundant.

[jok]

I played a mountain dwarf lore bard. I think they are exellent. For performance he would read storys from his book of grudges.

At low levels you can go into meele no problem due to medium armor and warhammer.
But I would leave str at 14 and con at 14 or even 12. Max cha as much as possible and don't dump any stats. As a lore bard you are a full casting (social) skill monkey. That keeps you busy from mid levels on when you loose effectivness in mundane hitting things.

[Arkhios]

I think we're missing each other. I was claiming that investment in strength is rather wasteful on this character. I can certainly see why you'd do it for flavour, but game technically you'd probably do better investing those points elsewhere, because you won't be attacking very much. Sure, Booming and Greenblade has you hit at least with your str modifier, I han't thought fo that.
Same sort of thing with taking mountain dwarf and starting fighter. Mountain dwarf gives you proficiency in armour, but fighter armour is already heavy. For fluff, cool, but for mechanics, redundant.

Oh, yeah, right. Mountain Dwarf sure is suboptimal choice, but then again, isn't a dwarf and a bard already a suboptimal choice? :smallwink:

[Specter]

That can work. Another option instead of BB/GFB is picking up smite spells from the paladin list; they can be scaled up, give a nice little debuff and are much more manly.

[Arkhios]

That can work. Another option instead of BB/GFB is picking up smite spells from the paladin list; they can be scaled up, give a nice little debuff and are much more manly.

Hey, that's actually pretty damn cool idea!

[Willie the Duck]

I could take Booming Blade from Additional Magical Secrets though, but I see your point.
<snip>
Edit: I don't see this character as a Paladin at all, and I have too many character concepts that involve paladin levels so I would prefer a different approach this time.

There's any number of approaches. The basic (crunchy) question boils down to this: you are taking a level of martial (as you have it, fighter). Since you are doing this instead of going straight bard, we assume there is a reason. It could be just to get heavy armor, but maybe to be a front-liner. If it is to be a front-liner, you really won't be a front liner after about mid-levels because you do not get extra attack.

There are many ways around this. They include:

5 levels of martial class. Very straightforward. Extra attack is the most consistent way to get that damage up, but a 5 level hit in bard makes you a secondary spell caster.
pick up a combat cantrip with AMS. A fine choice. These cantrips are clearly designed to make up for lack of extra attack (and get crazy when the sorcadin attacks twice and then uses a quickened combat cantrip as a bonus action). The downsides to this are:

both of the cantrips are situational in their extra damage.

Booming Blade is optimal if you can end your turn far away from the opponent, so (if they are melee-centric) they either have to move and take damage, or waste their turn
GFB requires 2 enemies in close proximity. And even then doing a lot of damage to one enemy is usually preferable to splitting it between 2.

this uses up half your level six AMS. If you are spending half of the (big) benefit of lore bard just to replicate extra attack, why not be a valor bard and skip this whole rigamarole?

Just live with being a front-liner during the early levels (when you need the survivability of heavy armor the most), and be a spellcaster (minus one level) later on.


Now I can totally see not wanting to be a bardadin. Thematically it's harder than "slightly martial bard" (hey they even have a type of bard that is that already, doing this is just like making a fighter-wizard instead of Eldritch Knight). Also, while the bardadin is not as 'cheesy' (although honestly I've yet to see any 3e/PF level cheese in any build in 5e) as the sorcadin, people still might say "oh look, another Charisma synergy multiclass.

I on the other hand love the concept of the bard-paladin. The noble knight who sings his own accolades. The paladin of vengeance who documents whatever cause has turned him a knight in sour armor. The lore bard-oath of ancients who knows the secrets of the woods and fae. Great story potential, as far as I'm concerned.

[Arnie82]

That can work. Another option instead of BB/GFB is picking up smite spells from the paladin list; they can be scaled up, give a nice little debuff and are much more manly.

You get 2 spells at level 6, you could even do a smite and BB or GFB and combo them together for some reasonable damage and debuffs

[Arkhios]

I on the other hand love the concept of the bard-paladin. The noble knight who sings his own accolades. The paladin of vengeance who documents whatever cause has turned him a knight in sour armor. The lore bard-oath of ancients who knows the secrets of the woods and fae. Great story potential, as far as I'm concerned.

Oh, I agree. I already have a Paladin of the Ancients that's going to get a few levels in Bard to further help me envision a "druidic" paladin; "A protector of the Old Faith" so to speak. The story potential of a paladin-bard multiclass isn't lost to me, I just don't want another similar character :)

[Specter]

You get 2 spells at level 6, you could even do a smite and BB or GFB and combo them together for some reasonable damage and debuffs

Agreed. Extra Attack is overrated if you're doing good damage with one attack, and even if you don't you'll have plenty of stuff to do as a Bard so you can save your attacks until 3rd-4th turn.