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TigerHunter
2007-07-14, 09:28 PM
Why is the Knowledge skill trained only? The DC for 'really easy questions' is 10, 15 for 'basic questions'. Everything else is 20 to 30--generally impossible.
Identifying a specific creature is 10+HD.
Assuming for the purpose of this argument that you have no ranks in the skill and an int modifier of 0, that would mean that you would know half the 'really easy questions', such as what the name of the nearest village is. This is sensible. You would know one quarter of the 'basic questions', such as what type of political system you live in, or who the king is. 'Really tough questions' like what the physical properties of adamantine are, would require ranks in the skill--again, sensible, as only specialists would reasonably have knowledge of such things.
For identifying monsters, you would know half the low HD monsters--animals and normal humanoids, generally. As monsters got tougher (aka rarer) you would know fewer and fewer of them. Sensible.
With the current system, a person without ranks in knowledge (nature) can't even identify a rat.
So again, why is knowledge trained only?

JellyPooga
2007-07-14, 09:36 PM
Can't you roll Knowledge untrained, but you can't get any information 'worth' a DC above 10 from the check? I'm sure there's something in the rules about that...it means that if you're untrained, you can know really basic stuff, but don't stand a chance of knowing anything more than rumour, hearsay and common knowledge (like what a rat is).

RamrodTheWizard
2007-07-14, 09:42 PM
Technically, if you're untrained in a knowledge skill you cannot succeed on anything above DC 10.

TigerHunter
2007-07-14, 09:44 PM
Can't you roll Knowledge untrained, but you can't get any information 'worth' a DC above 10 from the check? I'm sure there's something in the rules about that...it means that if you're untrained, you can know really basic stuff, but don't stand a chance of knowing anything more than rumour, hearsay and common knowledge (like what a rat is).
I've read through the description 5 times, and I don't see anything regarding that. Huh.
Nevermind then. Ignore me.

Starbuck_II
2007-07-14, 10:03 PM
I've read through the description 5 times, and I don't see anything regarding that. Huh.
Nevermind then. Ignore me.

Though, you wouldn't know what the rat can do (like it can climb or swim or has scent).

kjones
2007-07-14, 10:38 PM
Well, then there's the classic fallacy of Knowledge DC = 10 + HD, which makes NO SENSE.

"What's that creature?"
"It appears to be a blue morpho butterfly, also known as morpho menelaus, renowned for their consumption of rotten fruit and cannibalistic larvae."
"And what about that?"
"That looks like a... um... bear of some kind... possibly black, or brown."

Draz74
2007-07-14, 11:26 PM
LoL, kjones, exactly!

But besides the idea that the Knowledge check DC guidelines for creatures are horribly messed up anyway, the Rat strikes me as an example of where the DM should just rule that the DC is lower than the standard "guideline" would suggest.

Gavin Sage
2007-07-14, 11:48 PM
Knowledge being trained only is a good thought gone bad. It makes sense for realism, but makes for bad mechanics. Especially with all the categories. It shouldn't be simply a skill but something more developed. Something like the a Bard's Lore but for everyone.

TheOOB
2007-07-14, 11:57 PM
It gets worse, it's possible to be able to tell everything about a wyrmling red dragon, all it's abilities, everything, and know nothing about it's great wyrm mother.

Skjaldbakka
2007-07-15, 12:56 AM
Some of the new material being put out actually gives a chart of Knowledge DCs with the critter/organization/PrC in question. If they do another monster book, or a Big Book o'Monsters, I think they'll include Knowledge DC and type in the stat block(which would break away from the 10+HD garbage).

nerulean
2007-07-15, 07:04 AM
Knowledge checks are one point where any DM should make heavy use of circumstance bonuses.

Rad
2007-07-15, 08:46 AM
Well, then there's the classic fallacy of Knowledge DC = 10 + HD, which makes NO SENSE.

"What's that creature?"
"It appears to be a blue morpho butterfly, also known as morpho menelaus, renowned for their consumption of rotten fruit and cannibalistic larvae."
"And what about that?"
"That looks like a... um... bear of some kind... possibly black, or brown."

"And that Big thing with red scales and breathing fire?"
"Oh, I have absolutely no Idea!"

Diggorian
2007-07-15, 12:01 PM
Ha. Since the sentence about monster knowldge DCs starts with "In general," I take my que to just ignore it. :smallwink:

Knowledge X has gotta be a hard skill to write since really DC should raise with the rarity of the creature, not difficulty, but rarity is up to the DM given it's his/her world.

And as Nerulean points out, circumstance is important.

horseboy
2007-07-15, 12:51 PM
Well, it's crazy, but not that far fetched. A lot of the talk radio stations in B'more like to send people down to DC and ask the locals questions like: "Who's the Vice President" and they can't answer it. They live a stone's throw away, surrounded by the US Federal Government and don't know. They'll go to the Lincoln memorial and ask people looking at the sign who is the guy a statue of and they still don't know. Then you've got that Jay Leno segment where he basically does the same thing, asking where they get chocolate milk from. There's a good element of randomness in what people do and don't know.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-15, 01:17 PM
I don't use 10+HD, I use 5+CR.

Yuki Akuma
2007-07-15, 01:19 PM
I don't use 10+HD, I use 5+CR.

Good for you.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-15, 01:39 PM
Good for you.

A creature's strength and rarity are usually related to it's CR (see also: great wyrms and the tarrasque) rather than its HD. Using CR makes more sense, but it's still not a very good measure.

Yuki Akuma
2007-07-15, 01:46 PM
A creature's strength and rarity are usually related to it's CR (see also: great wyrms and the tarrasque) rather than its HD. Using CR makes more sense, but it's still not a very good measure.

You know, of course, that this means no one knows what a whale is, right?

It has exactly the same problems as using HD. :smalltongue:

Fax Celestis
2007-07-15, 01:51 PM
Yeah, I know. It's a poor substitute, but at least it functions a little better.

I have not yet been able to come up with a decent equation to calculate Knowledge DCs, despite many attempts.

CthulhuM
2007-07-15, 02:10 PM
Admittedly, your average medieval peasant (or king, or scholar, for that matter) probably wouldn't know what a whale was. If they saw one they'd probably just think something along the lines of "ohcrapdon'tlettheseamonstereatme!"

Admittedly, though, this is likely more because whales are sea creatures too big to catch and eat than it is because they're rare.

In any event, it seems like knowledge checks are one of those things that can't really be handled mechanistically. The DCs for many knowledge checks should actually vary depending on a character's background anyway - someone who grew up in Sigil would be hard-pressed to not know what a tiefling was, even if he didn't have more than a couple ranks in knowledge:planes.

Diggorian
2007-07-15, 02:16 PM
I dont think there can be a general equation for all circumstances. Arctic dwellers face a low DC for whales, desert folk get a low one for camels (even lower if domesticated).

DCs should be based maybe on type: animals and vermin on the low end; abberations and outsiders on the high end. Again, in an Underdark game that order maybe inversed.

Really it's for a DM to judge.

EDIT: *pulls a ninja star from his back* And, see above :smallamused:

Ssiauhll
2007-07-15, 02:46 PM
Why use HD or CR for a monster knowledge? Rather it should be how common the creature is, which I admit maybe the same thing in the end. People should know about a dragon if it lives near by, they are big an scary word gets around.

DCs
Rats, orcs, maggots, dogs, are the types of things that a peasant would know about. Dragons, gods, camels and wales are things that the commoner would have hard about extensively but would have never seen. They would know the most obvious information but thats it.

Additionally there should also be some false information that is commonly regarded as correct even thought it is not. This is there the true scholars would shine.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-15, 02:54 PM
The DCs for many knowledge checks should actually vary depending on a character's background anyway - someone who grew up in Sigil would be hard-pressed to not know what a tiefling was, even if he didn't have more than a couple ranks in knowledge:planes.

That's called a "circumstance bonus" and is actually recommended by the DMG for exactly that reason.

MrNexx
2007-07-15, 03:05 PM
Yeah, I know. It's a poor substitute, but at least it functions a little better.

I have not yet been able to come up with a decent equation to calculate Knowledge DCs, despite many attempts.

Define how common they are for certain areas. Common (PC races, common animals, common humanoids) is DC 10. Uncommon is 15. Rare is DC 20. Unique is DC 30. Knowledge: Region provides a synergy bonus.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-15, 03:12 PM
You know, of course, that this means no one knows what a whale is, right?

Well, you got to admit that on this Earth's middle ages, just about nobody knew what a narwhal was...

horseboy
2007-07-15, 03:15 PM
Define how common they are for certain areas. Common (PC races, common animals, common humanoids) is DC 10. Uncommon is 15. Rare is DC 20. Unique is DC 30. Knowledge: Region provides a synergy bonus.

Survival and nature would be good synergies too.
"What is it?"
"I'm not sure the exact name, but it's good eatin'"

bugsysservant
2007-07-15, 03:22 PM
Rather than giving circumstance bonuses, wouldn't it be more logical to just award three or four ranks of knowlege to every character unconditionally based on their background? Any more than that would require study, but four ranks could be a fair mechanical simulation of a character's background. The concept of a circumstance bonus is a bit absurd for knowlege checks in this context anyway. "You don't actually know anything about the place you grew up in, but you're going to get a bonus to the role because you grew up there"?

Bassetking
2007-07-15, 03:24 PM
Well, you got to admit that on this Earth's middle ages, just about nobody knew what a narwhal was...

Sea Mermaid.... Unicorns! Mermaidicorns! Crap, did I just create another Elven Subrace?:smallbiggrin:

nerulean
2007-07-15, 03:32 PM
Rather than giving circumstance bonuses, wouldn't it be more logical to just award three or four ranks of knowlege to every character unconditionally based on their background? Any more than that would require study, but four ranks could be a fair mechanical simulation of a character's background. The concept of a circumstance bonus is a bit absurd for knowlege checks in this context anyway. "You don't actually know anything about the place you grew up in, but you're going to get a bonus to the role because you grew up there"?

Actually, circumstance bonuses make a lot more sense. Giving someone who grew up in a desert three free ranks in Knowledge (nature) might seem like a feasible way of letting him know the difference between a human and a camel, but don't forget that that would give him a bonus in identifying a shark or a nixie, which would be somewhat out of his area of expertise.

Diggorian
2007-07-15, 03:35 PM
Well, you got to admit that on this Earth's middle ages, just about nobody knew what a narwhal was...

Except Eskimos and other people of the Arctic climes. All in the circumstance. :smallbiggrin:

bugsysservant
2007-07-15, 03:50 PM
Actually, circumstance bonuses make a lot more sense. Giving someone who grew up in a desert three free ranks in Knowledge (nature) might seem like a feasible way of letting him know the difference between a human and a camel, but don't forget that that would give him a bonus in identifying a shark or a nixie, which would be somewhat out of his area of expertise.

hmmm... I usually just have subsets of the knowlege skills to make up for this, but... I don't find this any more illogical than having n knowlege(nature) encompass all things natural, past, present and future. It is assumed that someone who has studied one subset nature has the ability to draw parralells that apply to another. Occaisonally these are off (natural 1's), but generally they are useful. Not being able to recognize a shark should be a function of the DC of the check, not your initial surroundings. Thus, someone who grew up in the desert knows a lot about camels, but much of that is still applicable to horses. While he may have more dificulty identifying a shark, he can probably still know something about it based on the small fish that inhabit the pond at the local oasis. While this is a stretch, the actual mechanical bonus would probably be broken down into a rank in nature, geography, and local knowlege, and one rank could easily represent the ability to draw parrallels between organisms. As it stands, a tiefling who grew up in the abyss would have as much chance of knowing a single thing about a shark as the desert dweller, and thats just not accurate.

MrNexx
2007-07-15, 04:03 PM
Let's try rewording my suggestion.

Determine a person's home region, and how common something is in that area. That sets the DC.
Common: 10
Uncommon: 15
Rare: 20
Unique: 25
Not present: 30

If they have knowledge: region of 2 or more ranks any region, they are considered native to that region and use the DCs from that area. If they have 5 or more ranks, they get a +2 to any checks for creatures of that region.

Thus, if you've got someone who's from the Far Hills, where Orcs are rare, he's going to have to make a 20 to know about them. When he moves to Moria, he's going to know very little about Orcs. After living there a few years (and having 2 ranks in Knowledge: Moria), he now knows the mines very well, and can tell you a lot about Orcs (since they're common here; he has a DC of 10). A few more years (and a total rank of 5) and he's finding it easier to make his Knowledge: Arcana checks to tell you about Baalrogs; they're Unique in Moria, but he knows some of the lore from learning about Moria.

Arbitrarity
2007-07-15, 04:25 PM
Wouldn't unique be "only one"? So Baalrogs wouldn't exist (Baalrog, singular would), for There Can Be Only One!
:smallwink:


My head itches. Cursed nits!

mostlyharmful
2007-07-15, 04:48 PM
whenever i DM the knowledge skills aren't about providing information, just about all the characters have lots of data/stories/memories floating around. even if its just at the level of "what is it?" " well it's eighty feet long, bright red, spewing flame and charging us so I'm going with not very nice"

Knowledge is also great for providing the details, esspecially when you have access to a resource that can fill in the blanks like a library/temple, anyone can know what a red dragon is and what it looks like, but if you want to know what this one's name is, where it first came from and its prefered habits/lairs/sacrifical-damsel-hair-colour then you turn to the wizard with ranks in arcana

Alleine
2007-07-15, 04:49 PM
What do you mean there can only be one? There was one in Moria, but there had been more previously, and probably still more hidden underground.

I like MrNexx's solution, the only problem I have with knowledge is that it takes up skill points to know some things you already ought to know. I'd say if you're from a region, like Moria where orcs are common, you get some bonus skill points or a circumstance bonus for Knowledge: Moria. You live there, it doesn't take skill to know there are orcs there, it doesn't even take over 3 int. You can be sure the rats and other mine denizens knew of the orcs, they were all over the place.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-15, 05:04 PM
Sea Mermaid.... Unicorns! Mermaidicorns!

Why does that sound like a kind of Transformer?

Oh and btw, this is a perfect example of when it is better to look at the ranks and not the dice. A character with, say, five ranks in k:nature does know most relevant facts about any and all animals native to his country of origin, hands down.

Tallis
2007-07-15, 05:13 PM
I agree with the DCs based on rarity modified by region. I would add that untrained knowledge checks would be more likely to yield false answers. The bloddy peasants have surely heard of dragons. They would certainly know one if the saw one. They would probably also assume that a giant lizard or a dinosaur was a dragon. Also, they probably would not have a good idea of it's powers. They'd probably have some idea of breath weapons, but not the relationship between breath and color. They might assume all dragons have breath weapons similar to the one's native to their region. They may or may not know about spell abilities and if they do would likely have an exagerated idea of them. All dragons are archmages!

MrNexx
2007-07-15, 11:45 PM
Wouldn't unique be "only one"? So Baalrogs wouldn't exist (Baalrog, singular would), for There Can Be Only One!
:smallwink:


My head itches. Cursed nits!

It is unique in Moria, and so you would know things about Baalrogs in general. There are, IIRC, somewhere around 7 of them.

MrNexx
2007-07-15, 11:48 PM
What do you mean there can only be one? There was one in Moria, but there had been more previously, and probably still more hidden underground.

I like MrNexx's solution, the only problem I have with knowledge is that it takes up skill points to know some things you already ought to know. I'd say if you're from a region, like Moria where orcs are common, you get some bonus skill points or a circumstance bonus for Knowledge: Moria. You live there, it doesn't take skill to know there are orcs there, it doesn't even take over 3 int. You can be sure the rats and other mine denizens knew of the orcs, they were all over the place.

Here's the thing. Knowing about Orcs would be, IIRC, Knowledge: Nature or Knowledge: History. However, since they're Common, you can know about them simply by being from Moria... you can always make a DC 10 knowledge check, even untrained.

Creatures that are less common... trolls, for example... would have a higher DC, and not be known to people who don't know anything about the place they live... which is a SHOCKING amount of people.

Fax Celestis
2007-07-15, 11:58 PM
People also seem to forget the idea of "Taking Ten" in reference to a Knowledge check. I have an Int mod of +2 and if I take ten, I get a result of 12 untrained. Of course, this sizes itself down to 10 due to the untrained skill checks rules, but still: this means I basically am capable of knowing about anything common from my region using Nexx's rules. Given a healthy circumstance bonus, this could even mean I know about uncommon stuff from the area even without training in the skill.

CthulhuM
2007-07-16, 12:54 AM
Circumstance bonuses work fine so long as circumstance bonuses don't mean "+2," which is what the usual circumstance bonus amounts to. Circumstance bonuses on knowledge checks would have to apply to the DC 10 maximum as well, in order to make any sense.

Otherwise growing up in a place would make you more likely to know the most basic details than an outsider ("The Sears Tower is the tallest building in Chicago."), but you would still know nothing of any detail unless you'd invested in the relevant skill ("Sorry, I don't know any good restaurants around here. Yes, I grew up two blocks away... what's your point? Do I look like some sort of food critic or something?").

Diggorian
2007-07-16, 09:35 AM
Circumstance bonus can also take the form of sliding the DC down some. So though you may not have Knowledge Local a DC 12 question can become DC 10, thereby common.

Though you may not be a food critique (which would reflect personal skill) having an opinion on neighborhood restaurants may warrant a lower DC by you having heard of good restaurants or noticing ones that are the busiest (the environment makes the info more salient).

Tormsskull
2007-07-16, 09:45 AM
The 2nd rule of DMing, is something doesn't make sense, change it. I don't allow myself to get bogged down with hard and fast rules for each type of creature based on a mechanic. I just guess in my head, knowing how rare a creature is towards the person making the roll, and make up a DC on the spot.

Diggorian
2007-07-16, 10:04 AM
That's how I adjudicate it most of the time. Keeps the pace swift. Some though arent as quick on the fly as us and would benefit from it being "Nailed Down" mechanically.

Michigan DMs Rule! :smallbiggrin: (j/k ... kinda :smallwink: )

Bender
2007-07-16, 10:17 AM
People also seem to forget the idea of "Taking Ten" in reference to a Knowledge check. I have an Int mod of +2 and if I take ten, I get a result of 12 untrained. Of course, this sizes itself down to 10 due to the untrained skill checks rules, but still: this means I basically am capable of knowing about anything common from my region using Nexx's rules. Given a healthy circumstance bonus, this could even mean I know about uncommon stuff from the area even without training in the skill.

Although I can't find it in the SRD, I remember something about not being able to take 10 on a knowledge check, which makes perfect sense.
It's rather absurd to take 10 on recalling something from your memory...


PS: I thought there were quite a lot of Balrogs in the Silmarilion, even a king of Balrogs or something like that...

SadisticFishing
2007-07-16, 06:38 PM
What is the D/C to know that coloured dragons are generally evil, and chromatic ones good? Or each dragon's element and that they are immune to it?

These are the types of things that bards sing about, and so even most commoners know the differences, but how can you set this up for a group?

Why do you need points in the knowledge skill to research something?

CthulhuM
2007-07-16, 11:16 PM
Why do you need points in the knowledge skill to research something?

Well, that actually makes a reasonable amount of sense. Your knowledge ranks could represent necessary background knowledge to understand whatever it is you're looking up, or, more likely, would just tell you where to look. Unless the DM decides the local medieval public library has something entitled "Bahamut's Big Book O' Dragons" displayed prominently, looking up detailed information about them probably wouldn't be a simple task. It would, after all, be in the best interest of the dragons themselves to ensure the average man on the street can't just rattle off all of their various strengths and weaknesses if asked.

MrNexx
2007-07-16, 11:22 PM
What is the D/C to know that coloured dragons are generally evil, and chromatic ones good? Or each dragon's element and that they are immune to it?

This is actually where I see 4.0 going; Knowledge DCs in the Monster Manual, saying "If you make a DC 10 knowledge check, you know X; DC 15 knows X + Y", similar to what they've done for Prestige Classes.

dr.cello
2007-07-16, 11:41 PM
Although I can't find it in the SRD, I remember something about not being able to take 10 on a knowledge check, which makes perfect sense.
It's rather absurd to take 10 on recalling something from your memory...


Well, not exactly. A knowledge check is not so much 'remembering' as it is seeing whether or not you know something. Taking 10 actually makes a lot of sense in that context--I'd almost say it makes more sense than rolling randomly. If you have studied the streets of your home extensively (say four ranks in Knowledge: local, plus skill emphasis, no intelligence bonus, so +7), it doesn't make a lot of sense for you to see a building you've walked past hundreds of times before, roll, and 'Gee, I guess I don't know what that is.' While there might be a certain element of randomness ('You know, I never knew that was here' is a phrase I've used from time to time), being able to take 10 on a knowledge check makes perfect sense to me. At least, on easy questions. It might make sense that for DC 20 and higher you can never take ten--deep knowledge like that might count as being 'distracted'.


PS: I thought there were quite a lot of Balrogs in the Silmarilion, even a king of Balrogs or something like that...

Correct.

Recursive
2007-07-17, 12:15 AM
You know, of course, that this means no one knows what a whale is, right?
A what? C'mon, admit it...you made that creature up.

Kurald Galain
2007-07-17, 04:32 AM
This is actually where I see 4.0 going; Knowledge DCs in the Monster Manual, saying "If you make a DC 10 knowledge check, you know X; DC 15 knows X + Y", similar to what they've done for Prestige Classes.

Still means that one in twenty slack-jawed-yokels will know (nearly) everything about any particular monster.

Ulzgoroth
2007-07-17, 04:46 AM
One in twenty slack-jawed yokels who have at least one rank of the applicable skill, that is. Well, two actually, but the set is reduced so much... remember, you can't achieve over DC 10 results without trained knowledge.

I'm also pretty sure you aren't supposed to be able to take ten on knowledge checks, but I can't find it in sources. Hum.

Bender
2007-07-17, 06:18 AM
Well, not exactly. A knowledge check is not so much 'remembering' as it is seeing whether or not you know something. Taking 10 actually makes a lot of sense in that context--I'd almost say it makes more sense than rolling randomly.

My problem with it is that I see knowledge as something random: not everyone with the same knowledge modifier knows the same things. And what could be the IC explanation of taking 10? In most cases, this is not taking a risk, and see if you can do something without rushing. In most cases you can try again if a 10 was not enough.
Now for knowledge checks, a PC either knows something or doesn't. There's no "safe" way to "try" to know something.
Of course, everyone has his own flavour, but I wouldn't allow taking 10, even if it's possible by RAW.


If you have studied the streets of your home extensively (say four ranks in Knowledge: local, plus skill emphasis, no intelligence bonus, so +7), it doesn't make a lot of sense for you to see a building you've walked past hundreds of times before, roll, and 'Gee, I guess I don't know what that is.'

Well, you'd only miss a DC 10 10% of the time. You autosucceed in important buildings which have a circumstance modifier, but you might never have taken notice of a certain building (when you're not fond of icecream, you might not know where the icecreamshop is, while most people do). This doesn't happen very often, but I think it does.
believe me, there was a garage on my way to school, I must have passed it at least a thousand times, yet I have no idea what the brand is. (I really don't care about cars, it could even be only a gas station)

Diggorian
2007-07-17, 11:46 AM
My problem with it is that I see knowledge as something random: not everyone with the same knowledge modifier knows the same things. And what could be the IC explanation of taking 10? In most cases, this is not taking a risk, and see if you can do something without rushing. In most cases you can try again if a 10 was not enough.
Now for knowledge checks, a PC either knows something or doesn't. There's no "safe" way to "try" to know something.
Of course, everyone has his own flavour, but I wouldn't allow taking 10, even if it's possible by RAW.

When a player asks me something regarding a Knowledge skill they have ranks in, I'll add their skill modifier to 10 and answer them anything related to the question at or below that DC. No roll needed. This is going off basic knowledge, given their familiarity with the topic.

If the DC is higher, they must roll to scour their memory.

Matthew
2007-07-18, 03:44 PM
I have to admit, I often just ignore the fact that you can 'roll' for Knowledge Checks that recall something the Character knows and just assume everybody 'takes 10'. Only in exceptional cases do I use an actual roll.

Diggorian
2007-07-18, 06:51 PM
It's been my experience that assuming 10 is taken usually answers the questions the PC has without rolling.

In a past game, PCs asked a venerable elven history expert about the history of the elven nobility they were doing business with. His check was so high I did half an hour of exposition going back a millenia. I dont think they absorbed all of it. :smalltongue: