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A Gray Phantom
2007-07-15, 07:15 PM
I'm playing a character who specializes in a whip & shield style of combat. Unfortunately, I'm facing a certain disadvantage:


Whip
A whip deals nonlethal damage. It deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you donít threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).

Okay, so a normal whip can't do damage to anyone wearing so much as a thick sweater. Bummer for me. What about magical whips? If it had a merciful enhancement, would that extra damage be blocked out by a simple padded bra? With the rules as written, it would seem so.

How about this: A magical enhancement specifically made for whips, allowing them to do the normal amount of nonlethal damage (1d3) as long as you hit the AC as normal. It could also allow any other magical bonus damage (like frost, for example) to be dealt normally.

Would said magical enhancement be a +1 or what?

CyberWyld
2007-07-15, 07:20 PM
Just use Whipknives. It's the same thing but they do lethal dmg. You still get all the bonuses of a Whip (trip and Disarm) but now you actually hurt stuff when you strike with them. You can also get them with the mighty enhancement and add in that str bonus. My whip character did plenty of dmg. with his whipknives. As a matter of fact...why would anyone even really want to use a whip over a whipknife? Unless they just wanted to deal non leathal dmg?



hasta

A Gray Phantom
2007-07-15, 07:26 PM
Yes, actually, I'd prefer to use nonlethal damage. (Crazy concept, huh?)

PS: Whipknife does sound interesting, though. What is your source?

BRC
2007-07-15, 07:32 PM
my character DW's whipknives, its preety awsome

Demented
2007-07-15, 07:37 PM
Maybe there are whipsaps for non-lethal. =P

Fishies
2007-07-15, 07:42 PM
Do whipknives have the same reach? (15')

Townopolis
2007-07-15, 07:46 PM
I always thought the point of whips was to disarm/trip everyone within 15'. Which isn't to say I have something against whip-knives, just that I think they're a bit beside the point.

nerulean
2007-07-15, 07:49 PM
I always thought the point of whips was to disarm/trip everyone within 15'. Which isn't to say I have something against whip-knives, just that I think they're a bit beside the point.

Indeed! However, once you've successfully done that, you want to be able to hack the little pests up a bit. :smallamused:

Ninja Chocobo
2007-07-15, 07:58 PM
Yes, actually, I'd prefer to use nonlethal damage. (Crazy concept, huh?)

PS: Whipknife does sound interesting, though. What is your source?

Stick a Merciful enchantment (+1 equivalent) on them. Problem solved.
There's Whip-daggers in the A&EG, and they deal 1d6 damage.

A Gray Phantom
2007-07-15, 08:00 PM
Stick a Merciful enchantment (+1 equivalent) on them. Problem solved.
There's Whip-daggers in the A&EG, and they deal 1d6 damage.

Would't an armor bonus of +1 or more still block out the extra damage?

And what is "A&EG?"

Bassetking
2007-07-15, 08:04 PM
Arms and Equipment Guide.

...Eh?
2007-07-15, 08:09 PM
They're also in Fist and Sword (IIRC, bot A&EG and S&F are 3.0 books) which also has the Lasher PrCl, which seems like an essential part of any whip build.

CyberWyld
2007-07-15, 08:18 PM
Indeed, the Lasher PrC is disgusting. What you do is take Fighter lvl's until you meet the prereqs for the lasher build. Lasher's get the sneak attacks like a rogue, only with whips or whipknives. By taking Fighter all the way up to Lasher you can get the feats you need for the build. You'll want to take all your weapon feats and 2 wep fighting feats to fight DW with these IMO. Least that's what I did. The lasher also gets a "flurry of blows" type of attack called "Crack of Fate". Very nice at later lvls. The 10 lvl ability from the lasher is pretty amazing. Think it's called Death Spiral or something? Supernatural ability, once per day. 15 foot radius you swing your whip and all DESIGNATED targets in the affected area make a fort save or die. If you save you still take some nice dmg and I believe a stun. I'm at work so I can't reference it atm, but it's on page 24 of The Sword and Fist. This build was one of the more enjoyable I've played. I was able to trip damn near everything I fought, and you get that free attack directly following a successful trip. Now you've got a prone target, so while he's taking his round to stand up you take your AOO against them. This build required spring attack and combat reflexes. Also the Karmic Strike Feat in the Sword and fist was amazing for this guy. Hope this helps.



Hasta

A Gray Phantom
2007-07-15, 08:24 PM
All well and good, chaps, but none of this answers my question:

Does a magic whip deal damage normally, and if not, what type of magical enhancement would be required to make it deal normal damage? +1? +2?

CyberWyld
2007-07-15, 08:30 PM
All well and good, chaps, but none of this answers my question:

Does a magic whip deal damage normally, and if not, what type of magical enhancement would be required to make it deal normal damage? +1? +2?

I'm not sure what the requirement would be for it to do normal dmg. But I think just a +1? At any rate whips DO NOT deal normal dmg. They were put into the game for the trip and disarm abilities. Again...why are we discussing this? If you want to do NORMAL dmg just take whipknives from the arms and equipment guide. Problem solved, normal dmg and it's still just like a whip.



hasta

A Gray Phantom
2007-07-15, 08:45 PM
I'm not sure what the requirement would be for it to do normal dmg. But I think just a +1? At any rate whips DO NOT deal normal dmg. They were put into the game for the trip and disarm abilities. Again...why are we discussing this? If you want to do NORMAL dmg just take whipknives from the arms and equipment guide. Problem solved, normal dmg and it's still just like a whip.



hasta

Ah, that was a typo. What I meant was "magically deal damage normally." Not, "deal normal damage." Sorry for the confusion :smallredface:.

Also, I don't own Arms and Equipment Guide. 3.0, right? Is it worth the twenty-seven dollars it costs? Nevertheless, for character flavor, I'd rather not have to use a "whipknife."

In short, I'm playing a bard/fighter who has levels in exotic weapon master (Complete Warrior). While I usually only uses the whip for tripping and disarming, I'd like to have to opportunity to use it to deal damage normally :smallcool:.

CyberWyld
2007-07-15, 08:53 PM
Ah, that was a typo. What I meant was "magically deal damage normally." Not, "deal normal damage." Sorry for the confusion :smallredface:.

Also, I don't own Arms and Equipment Guide. 3.0, right? Is it worth the twenty-seven dollars it costs? Nevertheless, for character flavor, I'd rather not have to use a "whipknife."

In short, I'm playing a bard/fighter who has levels in exotic weapon master (Complete Warrior). While I usually only uses the whip for tripping and disarming, I'd like to have to opportunity to use it to deal damage normally :smallcool:.

I see what you're saying Gray, but listen to what I'm saying man. The whipknife is the exact same weapon as your whip that you're fond of. It's near the same cost as a regular whip, you can get them as a +4 mighty if you so desire. It even looks like a regular whip, save that the end is sharp. So rather then reinventing the wheel here. :) Just get yourself a whipknife. Apply ALL the same rules for the whip, except that it does 1d6 normal dmg. That's it, and I believe the cost for a +4 mighty whipknife was like 250g? Nothing major. I'm not trying to be obtuse here, just trying to save work that's not needed to achieve what you want.



hasta

A Gray Phantom
2007-07-15, 09:02 PM
Thank you.

But, and I'm not trying to be a wet blanket, but I know a couple DMs that wouldn't allow whipknives. They say that they aren't realistic. (Yes, DMs running a magical fantasy roleplaying game that say one particular weapon is unrealistic. Just my luck :smallfrown:.)

Also, I'm looking for a weapon that doesn't deal lethal damage. I know that doesn't make sense, but I was looking at a certain concept.

CyberWyld
2007-07-15, 09:08 PM
Then the only advice I can give to you is to take the lasher Prestige class in the PrC. that's the only other way I know to allow a regular whip to deal leathal dmg. /shrug



hasta

Ninja Chocobo
2007-07-15, 09:18 PM
Also, I'm looking for a weapon that doesn't deal lethal damage. I know that doesn't make sense, but I was looking at a certain concept.

Ahem. I believed I answered this earlier.


Stick a Merciful enchantment (+1 equivalent) on them. Problem solved.

Kyace
2007-07-15, 09:28 PM
I'm nearly certain that the OP is wishing to have a normal nonlethal whip that deals damage to foes they strike who have armor on. That is weak for a +1 cost. A +1 bonus cost should be something like giving a weapon ghost touch or deal 1d6 elemental damage. I'd personally say that all magical whips ignore the line saying whips deal no damage to anyone with +1 armor and +3 Nat Armor. If you absolutly have to pay extra for it, I'd suggest just getting the Merciful magical ability and say that even if armor ignore the 1d3 weapon damage, the 1d6 extra nonlethal damage is still felt.

A Gray Phantom
2007-07-15, 09:40 PM
I'm nearly certain that the OP is wishing to have a normal nonlethal whip that deals damage to foes they strike who have armor on. That is weak for a +1 cost. A +1 bonus cost should be something like giving a weapon ghost touch or deal 1d6 elemental damage. I'd personally say that all magical whips ignore the line saying whips deal no damage to anyone with +1 armor and +3 Nat Armor. If you absolutly have to pay extra for it, I'd suggest just getting the Merciful magical ability and say that even if armor ignore the 1d3 weapon damage, the 1d6 extra nonlethal damage is still felt.

Thank you, Mr, Kyace, you seem to understand the goal I was after.

I was wondering whether anyone else thought it was fair if a magic whip would would deal damage normally.

I was also wondering whether or not magical damage from a whip would work on someone who was wearing armor.

And yes, the whip I have does have the merciful trait to it. I just wanted to know if that damage would work on someone wearing armor. Someone else would seem to agree with me that it does.

And "Lasher" prestige class sounds sort of appealing. You say it is in the book, PrC? What book does that stand for? Doesn't "PrC" stand for "prestige class?" Please site your source.

CyberWyld
2007-07-15, 10:02 PM
PrC Stands for "Prestige Class". The book with the Lasher PrC in it is called "Sword and Fist" and it's located on pg. 24.



Hasta

...Eh?
2007-07-15, 10:12 PM
Thank you.

But, and I'm not trying to be a wet blanket, but I know a couple DMs that wouldn't allow whipknives. They say that they aren't realistic. (Yes, DMs running a magical fantasy roleplaying game that say one particular weapon is unrealistic. Just my luck :smallfrown:.)

I'm assumning you have a copy of the 3.5 PHB available. If so, show your DM the pictures of the spiked chain or dire flail, then ask how a whip with small barbs attached is unrealistic, and if he points out that it's a rediculous idea, you can either point to the dire flail picture again, or poitn out that that's why it an exotic weapon.

horseboy
2007-07-15, 11:48 PM
Isn't the easiest way to deal with this just to take the Deft Strike feat?

Quietus
2007-07-16, 12:08 AM
By the RAW, there's no way to make a regular whip do damage to things with heavy clothing outside of the Lasher class. However, as a DM, I'd gladly say "Yeah, it sucks to have a specific style and never be able to use it - if a whip is magical, it can damage armored targets, period."

That kind of enhancement isn't nearly worth a +1, unless your DM built it into some other benefit somehow.

Kyace
2007-07-16, 12:17 AM
An expensive but fun way to get around the armor thing is to have a brilliant energy whip. Brilliant Energy weapons ignore nonliving matter including armor and shields. Heck, for real fun making it a seeking billiant energy whip. "Force cage? Ha, I laugh at your force cage and attack you!" If you can guess which square someone is in then: "I attack the monster on the other side of the brick wall with my whip!"

A Gray Phantom
2007-07-16, 01:47 AM
Ha, I didn't know what brilliant energy was until you pointed it out. Neat stuff. What would be really cool is to have a brilliant energy greatsword of summoning, essentiall giving you a lightsaber!

VROOM! VOO VOO VCKOW!!

Actually, here is what I was really planning in total:

Two levels of bard - Player's Handbook
Five levels of fighter - Player's Handbook
Three levels of exotic weapon master - Complete Warrior
And five levels of cloaked dancer for flavor - Complete Scoundrel (I'm surprised at how easy it is to enter this prestige class).

I'll look up this Sword & Fist book for the lasher. It sounds like a cool prestige class.

As for the whip itself:

Merciful - I want to take down enemies without having to kill them. +1 Dungeon Master's Guide

Deflecting - I'll be able to knock arrows out of the air from fifteen feet away. I'll couple this with my shield with the same ability :smallredface:. +1 Complete Warrior

Disarming - Because every little bit helps. +2 Complete Warrior

Speed - Just plain awesome. +3 Dungeon Master's Guide

Spell Storing - Since I have levels in bard, I can cast hold person into the whip to give me an edge. +1 Dungeon Master's Guide

That makes my whip, which I've named Rabo del Dracon, a +8 whip. However, since whips can't actually deal damage to anyone with +1 armor, all these enhancements would go to waste.

It would make sense to say that a magical whip magically hurts it's victims.

Since I don't really find whipknives too appealing, it would still make logical sense to have a special material (not an enhancement bonus), that allows me to deal damage normally with a whip. This material would increase the cost of the whip only slightly.

Brilliant energy looks amusing. On the other hand, it doesn't allow me to harm objects. If I can swing it through walls, then I probably can't use my whip climber skill trick (Complete Scoundrel).

I'm also thinking of creating an evil counterpart to the Rabo del Dracon: Rabo del Demonio: Most of the same enhancements, but also with explosive applied to it (+2 bonus from Complete Warrior).

Kyace
2007-07-16, 02:36 AM
I'm also thinking of creating an evil counterpart to the Rabo del Dracon: Rabo del Demonio: Most of the same enhancements, but also with explosive applied to it (+2 bonus from Complete Warrior).

You could make Rabo del Demonio a whip-dagger and use it against anything with armor. Not a perfect solution but if all else fails. :/

It appears that by RAW, 2 years ago, flaming whips cannot damage armored targets (http://www.enworld.org/archive/index.php/t-138686.html).

Can a deflecting whip be used to, say, a nearby mage from arrows? Neat find if so.

A Gray Phantom
2007-07-16, 03:00 AM
You could make Rabo del Demonio a whip-dagger and use it against anything with armor. Not a perfect solution but if all else fails. :/

It appears that by RAW, 2 years ago, flaming whips cannot damage armored targets (http://www.enworld.org/archive/index.php/t-138686.html).

Can a deflecting whip be used to, say, a nearby mage from arrows? Neat find if so.

1). Most everyone here seems to agree that a magical whip, or a whip made with special material and/or having blades attached to it, should deal damage normally.

2). Here is the text used in Complete Warrior:


Deflecting: If you're wielding a deflecting weapon of your size or one size larger, you can try to knock projectiles aimed at you out of the air. Once per round when you would normally be hit by a ranged weapon, you may make a DC 20 reflex saving throw (if the ranged weapon has a magical enhancement bonus, the DC increases by that amount). If you suceed, the ranged weapon or projectile deflects away harmlessly. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed. Only melee weapons can have this ability.

Faint trasmutation; CL 5th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, entropic shield; Price +1 bonus.

Since it says specifically, "projectiles aimed at you," you'd only be able to swat away arrows fired at your character. Reaching over and blocking arrows targeted at your friend would be more than a +1 bonus.

That is an interesting idea, though. It could be considered as "greater deflecting," and increase the bonus according to the reach of the weapon.

Triaxx
2007-07-16, 06:40 AM
You might try getting the DM to allow the Bypass Armor house rule.

Bypass Armor [House]

When rolling a critical with any weapon, a character may forgo the attempt to confirm the critical, in exchange for dealing non-lethal damage despite resistances.

In your case it would be allowed for a whip to deal damage through armor.

Person_Man
2007-07-16, 09:39 AM
One level of Pyrokinesticist (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPyrokineticist.html) gives you one of the most potent weapons in the game, a Fire Lash that hits on Touch Attacks and otherwise acts exactly like a normal whip, which means that it can be used two-handed with Power Attack/Leap Attack, as it expressly says you can in the FAQ.

Catch
2007-07-16, 11:01 AM
One level of Pyrokinesticist (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/psionicPyrokineticist.html) gives you one of the most potent weapons in the game, a Fire Lash that hits on Touch Attacks and otherwise acts exactly like a normal whip, which means that it can be used two-handed with Power Attack/Leap Attack, as it expressly says you can in the FAQ.

I'll second this motion. If psionics isn't your bag, you could always tweak it to be a magic effect.

A Gray Phantom
2007-07-17, 01:30 PM
Whoa! I found this really cool enhancement that is +3: Clouting (Complete Arcane)! Whenever I hit my opponent with a weapon of clouting, it knocks them back ten feet and possibly stuns them. So if you're carrying a whip of clouting, and leap into the fray with a whirlwind attack, you could potentially knockback, like, 16 enemies!

This is SO replacing the speed enhancement I was going to get :biggrin:!

Although, I just discoverd a little cheese here: Exotic weapon master allows me to make attacks of opportunity with a reach weapon (in this case, a whip). I strike a nearby opponent with a whip, and they get knocked back. This provokes an attack of opportunity, and I hit him again, knocking him back even more :smalleek:!

Or I could simply wait until my opponent charges me. Since the he provokes an attack of opportunity at fifteen feet, I hit him with the whip and knock him back ten feet :eek:.

Triaxx
2007-07-17, 07:13 PM
Fantastic. Great to see you found something useful. I'll have to look that up for Skelebane.

CyberWyld
2007-07-17, 09:30 PM
Although, I just discoverd a little cheese here: Exotic weapon master allows me to make attacks of opportunity with a reach weapon (in this case, a whip). I strike a nearby opponent with a whip, and they get knocked back. This provokes an attack of opportunity, and I hit him again, knocking him back even more !

Or I could simply wait until my opponent charges me. Since the he provokes an attack of opportunity at fifteen feet, I hit him with the whip and knock him back ten feet .

The lasher PrC removes the AOO you get from using your whip in melee at lvl 1 Lasher.



hasta