I could use advice. DM advice.

[Sir cryosin]

So my player all have dark vision which is fine. But two party members have devil sight. And last night they walk into a temple under ground and they could see just fine. I don't have a problem with that but what are the stipulations on devil sight. Then one of my PC's pulled out a gem of summon elemental gave it to his familiar to active while he went to attack. Now I am unsure he can do that but it seam legit. Because familiars can take any action besides attack right? Oh and in the temple there were animated armor and the same PC with the familiar used the warlock invocation to cast detect magic. As the armor starts to attack made the statement that his detect magic should of seen them. I feel that not right can someone please explain who was right. Oh and my PC are not hitting any hooks for anything I throw at them.

[BDRook]

Your PC was right. His detect magic should have pinged off of the armor, and that there was some transmutation magic attached to it. That's the whole point of detect magic. Now the spell does only last for 10 minutes, but if he did it because he had a funny feeling about the armor then he's in the right and you should have told him about it.

[Ninja_Prawn]

what are the stipulations on devil sight.

You have to make a pact with a devil? No, I mean, Devil's Sight is the final word on 'seeing in the dark'. You can't structure an encounter around darkness if two of your PCs have Devil's Sight.


Then one of my PC's pulled out a gem of summon elemental gave it to his familiar to active while he went to attack. Now I am unsure he can do that but it seam legit. Because familiars can take any action besides attack right?

AFB, but it sounds reasonable enough, assuming the familiar is capable of activating the gem. If you need to say a command word, most familiars would struggle with that.


Oh and in the temple there were animated armor and the same PC with the familiar used the warlock invocation to cast detect magic. As the armor starts to attack made the statement that his detect magic should of seen them. I feel that not right can someone please explain who was right.

DM's call. There's nothing to say that magical creatures automatically ping on Detect Magic, but you could allow it if you wanted to. I probably wouldn't. Though checking my sources, maybe animated objects are the one exception to this. The fact that Dispel Magic stops them does argue that Detect Magic should see them. Still, if your players were suspicious about the armour, an investigation check would be much cheaper than a full-on spell.


Oh and my PC are not hitting any hooks for anything I throw at them.

That's PCs for you! :smalltongue:

[dejarnjc]

Just out of curiosity, do you not have access to the PHB or the DMG? Some of these questions could be easily answered. If not no worries, answers below.

Devil's sight: You can see normally in darkness, both magical and nonmagical, to a distance of 120 feet.

Per the find familiar spell, a familiar cannot attack but can take other actions as normal. I.E. if they're physically capable of breaking an elemental gem then they can do so as an action.

Detect magic: "see a faint aura around any visible creature or object in the area that bears magic..."

[BDRook]

DM's call. There's nothing to say that magical creatures automatically ping on Detect Magic, but you could allow it if you wanted to. I probably wouldn't.



Detect Magic: For the duration you sense the presence of magic within 30 feet of you. If you sense magic in this way you can use your action to see a faint aura around any visible creature or object in the area that bears magic, and you learn its school of magic.

Animated armor is a regular suit of armor infused with magic, it'd be dumb for it NOT to ping off of this.

[Vaz]

If the players aren't hitting your hooks that is an OoC discussion. Ask them if they recognise them for what they are, and ask them if they do, what their goal is.

Now, the rest is fairly gibberish, but as I understand you have 2 Warlocks with Devils Sight, and the ability to Detect Magic, whixh is at will.

Without being "that DM" and requiring your Player to tell you every 10 minutes, and to tell you that is maintaining its concentration on that, the easiest way is that you keep it outside of 30ft, which is Detect Magics range.

Now, as a melee character, this gives you a period between its 60ft blindsight (50ft dash range) and 30ft magic detect, but is under the assumption it can remain hidden (low perception and no hide checks make it unlikely) to get there.

Now, "Indistinguishable" as per False Appearance is a bit poorly written, but given that it is saying appearance, rather than in reference to powerful armour.

This is poorly written rules, vs DM apparanelty wanting to get one over on the party.

First rule lf playing dnd, stop that. Second rule. Stop that. You're not playing Fight Club, you're playing DnD.

The players "optimize" and take abilities to do so. Taking that away from them is the most basic mistake, and makes players wonder what the point is if anything they do is not going to have an effect in game.

Players should be able to do things, but this is something that as a DM you need to learn to counter without simply throwing encounters which can be countered by having the (admittedly powerful) combo of Darkness and Devils Sight.

Remember that Dispel Magic is an option (Intelligent people engaging targets at open ranges seeing 2 moving blobs of darkness = fairly obvious). Others include AoE attacks, like Fireball.

Even in enclosed situations, people seeing a moving blob of darkness through an area they can actually see through are going to be suspicious.

Areas which are not patrolled could be trapped. Unless they are taking their time to examine for traps etc.

In regards to the specific, this was a "Boss armour" that didn't look Magical when inactive as part of its enchantment, but unless the players have an in character reason as to know specifically about this armour, you technically can say "how would your character know about that". In the same way that the party should probably cast fire spells at red dragons until they know in character (through background, familiarity, or knowledge etc) they're immune.

[lunaticfringe]

Stipulations on Devil's Sight? 2 levels of warlock. It's always on, no darkness penalties for 120ft.

I agree with your player on Detect Magic, as long as the armor was within 30ft of him. But it's your call.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Detect Magic: For the duration you sense the presence of magic within 30 feet of you. If you sense magic in this way you can use your action to see a faint aura around any visible creature or object in the area that bears magic, and you learn its school of magic.

Animated armor is a regular suit of armor infused with magic, it'd be dumb for it NOT to ping off of this.

Yeah, I checked the text and I agree with you for animated armour.

But there's a finer point to be discussed regarding the phrase "bears magic" though. Does a zombie ping? Does an imp? Does a warlock? Does magic use leave a residue? It's a vague wording and I'd argue those are all DM's call.

[dejarnjc]

Yeah, I checked the text and I agree with you for animated armour.

But there's a finer point to be discussed regarding the phrase "bears magic" though. Does a zombie ping? Does an imp? Does a warlock? Does magic use leave a residue? It's a vague wording and I'd argue those are all DM's call.

I don't think it's that vague. Zombies ping for sure. Warlocks ping IF any sort of magic is currently active.

[Sir cryosin]

But that's my problem I can't do anything they all have 18 or higher AC they see everything. I have to set DCs at 15 for very easy. I can't send them up against a boss with out them killing it before its first turn. I try and build fair encounters but they just make them trivial and steam roll them with a bigger steam roll

[BDRook]

Increase the bosses HP, and/or give him minions so they can't completely focus fire him.

[Ninja_Prawn]

But that's my problem I can't do anything they all have 18 or higher AC they see everything. I have to set DCs at 15 for very easy. I can't send them up against a boss with out them killing it before its first turn. I try and build fair encounters but they just make them trivial and steam roll them with a bigger steam roll

Well then, increase the difficulty. The encounter design guidance assumes an average party of non-optimised players, and even then 'deadly' means 'one or two of them might get dropped to 0'. An optimised group with a good grasp of tactics can steamroll 'balanced' encounters, but you have plenty of tools at your disposal to up the difficulty.

[jaappleton]

But that's my problem I can't do anything they all have 18 or higher AC they see everything. I have to set DCs at 15 for very easy. I can't send them up against a boss with out them killing it before its first turn. I try and build fair encounters but they just make them trivial and steam roll them with a bigger steam roll

I think I see the problem.

The PCs know you and your style too well. They've developed tactics. You need to change yours as a result.

Suggestions?

Environmental hazards. Poison gas traps. AoE attacks. Never, ever send singular foes as boss enemies; Ensure they have allies. Utilize spellcasters. Cast Silence on the PC mages. Anti-Magic fields.

[ruy343]

But that's my problem I can't do anything they all have 18 or higher AC they see everything. I have to set DCs at 15 for very easy. I can't send them up against a boss with out them killing it before its first turn. I try and build fair encounters but they just make them trivial and steam roll them with a bigger steam roll

So... your problem is that your players are prepared for you, and have solid defenses, with the intent on surviving? OK.

here's the real question: are they having fun? Are YOU having fun?

I ask, because they might be having a lot of fun blasting apart whatever the DM throws at them. Some players really enjoy that. Try to respect that, but push them a bit by coming up with more creative encounters (use Fog Cloud instead of the Darkness spell; etc.)

If you're not having fun, then talk to your players OoC, and find a way to make everyone happy :)

[BW022]

I don't have a problem with that but what are the stipulations on devil sight.


"You can see normally in darkness, both magical and nonmagical, to a distance of 120 feet."

It isn't darkvision. You see normally in darkness. Darkvision is 60' range, and sees as if normal light in dim light and as dim light in (non-magical) darkness. It is also only shades of gray. Effectively devil's sight means they see as if it was normal/bright light.



Now I am unsure he can do that but it seam legit. Because familiars can take any action besides attack right?


DM needs to rule. However, it (usually) won't work.

a) The DM needs to rule if the familiar is able to break the gem. I won't sweet it, but a spider, snake, or toad might has an issue either grasping it, carrying it, or breaking it. Maybe you ask it for a strength check or something.
b) The elemental is summoned by the familiar. Most familiars are not capable of speech and thus have no way of commanding it. By the rules, without commands, it only defends itself.
c) The familiar must concentrate. Familiars are pretty weak and if hit, highly likely to die or fail a concentration check.
d) If it fails its concentration check... the elemental becomes hostile and is likely going to attack the familiars companions.

Maybe a warlock familiar might be able to speak/command it and has enough hit points to not get instantly slaughtered. However, even they can't use abilities such as invisibility due to the concentration requirement. At levels where elemental gems are found... good chance that familiar isn't going to survive the round and the elemental will be coming after the party.



Oh and in the temple there were animated armor and the same PC with the familiar used the warlock invocation to cast detect magic. As the armor starts to attack made the statement that his detect magic should of seen them. I feel that not right can someone please explain who was right.

I would rule that animated armor should detect as magic. It is clear from the description that it has magical properties which can be dispelled or do not function in an antimagic field.

"The armor is incapacitated while in the area of an antimagic field. If targeted by dispel magic, the armor must succeed on a Constitution saving throw against the caster's spell save DC or fall unconscious for 1 minute."

If you are new to DMing, I would just mention at the next game that you read up on it, and that the armor should have detected as magic.



Oh and my PC are not hitting any hooks for anything I throw at them


I can't give any specific advice without knowing what the hooks are, what the players are, what their motivations are, etc.

My only general advice is that at low levels and being new... don't be afraid to make them really obvious and, if necessary, talk to the players out of character and let them know that this is where the adventure leads.

[IShouldntBehere]

You have to make a pact with a devil? No, I mean, Devil's Sight is the final word on 'seeing in the dark'. You can't structure an encounter around darkness if two of your PCs have Devil's Sight.

You absolutely can. You can't structure an encounter around the idea "Nobody can see in darkness", however darkness itself is still a fine tool. This is because you're basically saying that in areas of magic darkness PCS A & B can see, but C & D can't. Particularly if the group has no other tools to do deal with darkness this creates an interesting difference in ability.

You can imagine an encounter where several things need to be done and some of them need to be done in darkness, while the group is under attack and on a time limit. This creates interesting tension and a clear division of roles where the Devil's Sighted PCs will be needed in the darkness, while the other tasks must be divided among the other PCs. You can even account for the the two Devil Sight PCs other abilities and give a strong incentive to keep one of them in the light, even though the darkness tasks are tough for just one person to do alone. All of sudden you've got an interesting resource allocation problem.

[Maxilian]

You have to make a pact with a devil? No, I mean, Devil's Sight is the final word on 'seeing in the dark'. You can't structure an encounter around darkness if two of your PCs have Devil's Sight.


You can and sometimes you should, just to make the player feel good with what he have, it won't work always but its nice to see that your combo helped you in a combat (That also means that later you will need another combat that makes the other party members shine -Those with no Devil's Sight)

A nice way to use this is make a combat based on the spell that brings otherwordly tentacles (with magical darkness inside), if your PC look at that darkness they will see the true face of the horrible creature on the other side... and will have to roll a Madness check





DM's call. There's nothing to say that magical creatures automatically ping on Detect Magic, but you could allow it if you wanted to. I probably wouldn't. Though checking my sources, maybe animated objects are the one exception to this. The fact that Dispel Magic stops them does argue that Detect Magic should see them. Still, if your players were suspicious about the armour, an investigation check would be much cheaper than a full-on spell.



Well Detect Magic, IMHO, should work in objects that were created through magic or animated though magic (maybe not with all magical creatures but with automatons and golems)

[Joe the Rat]

New strategies for the all-seeing tank brigade:
1. Get bigger hitters. Did you know Hill Giants are +9 to hit? They just get bigger from there. Did you know Oni can pass themselves off as willowy maidens? Trade the oni glaive for an oni maul, and let anime schoolgirl hijinks ensue.
2. Target Saving Throws. A pack of hell hounds will make someone's day. cockatrices are funny. Floor mimics and perfectly (gelatinous) cube-shaped shooting alcoves are just mean. Hold Person makes you a sitting duck. Web makes you a sitting duck in a flammable net. Sanctuary really cuts down on those super stealth assassin first round kills, unless said assassin has good charisma saves.
3. Leverage Advantage: pack tactics, proning (which is another thing giants do well), invisibility, faerie fire, incapacitation (hold person).
4. FOG. Thick clouds and enemies with blindsight will put your hidden in line of sight game back in play. Expect gust of wind to start showing up on spell lists.
5. Easy perception to find, hard athletics/acrobatics/investigation/religion check to pass. Remember, there is no J in the Latin alphabet.

[Contrast]

You absolutely can. You can't structure an encounter around the idea "Nobody can see in darkness", however darkness itself is still a fine tool. This is because you're basically saying that in areas of magic darkness PCS A & B can see, but C & D can't. Particularly if the group has no other tools to do deal with darkness this creates an interesting difference in ability.

You can imagine an encounter where several things need to be done and some of them need to be done in darkness, while the group is under attack and on a time limit. This creates interesting tension and a clear division of roles where the Devil's Sighted PCs will be needed in the darkness, while the other tasks must be divided among the other PCs. You can even account for the the two Devil Sight PCs other abilities and give a strong incentive to keep one of them in the light, even though the darkness tasks are tough for just one person to do alone. All of sudden you've got an interesting resource allocation problem.

He said the whole party has dark vision. I can't help but think as a player that it would feel a little contrived to have multiple things needing to be done at the same time in an area constantly swathed in magical darkness. Certainly not a trick I'd expect to encounter more than once, let alone more often than that.

I think Joes point above is better. Fog and other things can also obscure vision if you really want to for some reason - Fog Cloud is a low level spell and does exactly this. Have enemies who are invisible but make a noise.

[Erys]

But that's my problem I can't do anything they all have 18 or higher AC they see everything. I have to set DCs at 15 for very easy. I can't send them up against a boss with out them killing it before its first turn. I try and build fair encounters but they just make them trivial and steam roll them with a bigger steam roll

Do you have more then four players? Have you given out too much magical loot?

Honestly, 18 AC is easy to mitigate. Having DV and sensing magic will spoil some surprises- but not all.

Make use of Nystyl's Magic Aura to throw off the constant detect magic, utilize fog instead of darkness with temorsense/blindsense critters for ambushes, attack their AC with rust monsters, and never, ever use a solo boss encounter. Always have multiply allies with bosses (maybe occasionally having the bbeg come in mid way though a battle with his other mooks).

These things will up the challenge- and hopefully raise the games fun for you and your players.

[IShouldntBehere]

He said the whole party has dark vision. I can't help but think as a player that it would feel a little contrived to have multiple things needing to be done at the same time in an area constantly swathed in magical darkness. Certainly not a trick I'd expect to encounter more than once, let alone more often than that.


Most good encounters require multiple things needing to be done at the same time, otherwise you have slugfests that are little more than the itch-and-scratchy show intro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkUICz-LHjQ .

This means that the only real variable here is the magical darkness. If you've got PCs with an ability the defeats magical darkness, it's hardly egregious to introduce situations where this ability is relevant. Perhaps spend a leg of the campaign fighting a literal Prince of Darkness who arms all his minions with this ability (making the PCs well suited to facing him). Maybe they'll explore an ancient temple of darkness.

If you avoid having magical darkness Devil's Sight becomes little more than a meaningless line on the character sheet. If you use magical darkness but keep encounters dead simple you've just got (imo) boring encounter design. It would seem that interesting, interactive encounters taking place with an element of magical darkness is a fine thing to use at least semi-regularly with proper context.

[Contrast]

If you avoid having magical darkness Devil's Sight becomes little more than a meaningless line on the character sheet.

Honestly I think the ability would be good enough that people would still take it if it was just 120ft regular darksight but thats a debate for another thread :smallbiggrin:

Edit - it is also worth noting that entire areas of full magical darkness would not be particularly fun for the non-Devils Sight PCs so there's that to consider as well.

[IShouldntBehere]

Honestly I think the ability would be good enough that people would still take it if it was just 120ft regular darksight but thats a debate for another thread :smallbiggrin:

Edit - it is also worth noting that entire areas of full magical darkness would not be particularly fun for the non-Devils Sight PCs so there's that to consider as well.

You give them other things to do. Encounter design does not mean "everything does the exact same thing in the exact same part of the map". A an interesting involving encounter means giving contrasting things to do that are suited to the contrasting abilties of the PCs. Throw in some darkness for the seeing-in-darkness. Some fliers with protection from projects tiles for flying warrior, some guys weakness to piercing for the archer. etc... etc.. etc..

[Sabeta]

Solo monsters work...if you they're not actually solo monsters.

tldr: Pick a monster you want to be a boss. Duplicate it, say 3 times. Make the three monsters take up one space, but still be three monsters.

Congratulations, you now have an interesting boss monster. Here's a really weak example.

Kobold
7/7/7 HP
Darkvision, Pack Tactics
Dagger, Sling

Combat begins, the one Kobold rolls initiative three times because he's actually three kobolds. Each kobold moves and attacks on its turn, but they always move together. It can take reactions between its turns. Whenever one of the its 7 HP is depleted it loses one of its initiatives, and so now it only gets two turns.

You could also reverse it. So this kobold rolls initiative once. Every time you deplete one of its health bars, add an initiative. The former is to simulate the players wearing down a boss over time. The ladder simulates bosses slowly enraging.

[Vogonjeltz]

So my player all have dark vision which is fine. But two party members have devil sight. And last night they walk into a temple under ground and they could see just fine. I don't have a problem with that but what are the stipulations on devil sight. Then one of my PC's pulled out a gem of summon elemental gave it to his familiar to active while he went to attack. Now I am unsure he can do that but it seam legit. Because familiars can take any action besides attack right? Oh and in the temple there were animated armor and the same PC with the familiar used the warlock invocation to cast detect magic. As the armor starts to attack made the statement that his detect magic should of seen them. I feel that not right can someone please explain who was right. Oh and my PC are not hitting any hooks for anything I throw at them.

For the future, please consider putting a carriage return (enter), or two, to insert a line in between each independent question, it makes it much easier to parse your post.

Answers:
1) Devil's Sight sees in Magical and non-magical darkness out to 120 feet. Basically identical to a devil who has darkvision to 120, and the devil's sight ability that indicates magical darkness doesn't impede their darkvision.

2) The familiar should be able to operate a magic item as normal, provided it doesn't require an attack or the attack action per se. However, it would be subject to the basic requirements of the spell associated with the gem (i.e. Concentration) making it a serious potential liability if the familiar gets attacked at all. A clever use of the familiar, but fraught with risk.

3) Animated Armor has blindsight to 60 feet, Detect Magic's detection range is only 30 feet. So unless the armor chose not to attack until the familiar/party were within 30 feet, the answer is No. They should have had no warning until it was too late.

For flavor you could have said that the armor all around them springs to life, and as it approaches, the false magical aura would become apparent to the character who can see magic auras. (MM 19)

[Petrocorus]

But that's my problem I can't do anything they all have 18 or higher AC they see everything. I have to set DCs at 15 for very easy. I can't send them up against a boss with out them killing it before its first turn. I try and build fair encounters but they just make them trivial and steam roll them with a bigger steam roll

Remember that Devil's Sight and Eldritch Sight won't allow them to see enemies hidden through efficient but mundane ways, nor enemies that are invisible.

[JakOfAllTirades]

So, let me get this straight...

Your PCs can see in normal darkness, which is kinda cool.
Two of them can see in magical darkness, which is very cool.
One of them has a familiar, and it can do cool stuff.
Another PC can detect magic at will, also very cool.

Okay, look... they're D&D characters, they all do cool stuff, and that's really what this game is all about.

If D&D characters doing cool stuff is ruining your finely crafted D&D campaign, take my advice.

Ask yourself why you're running a D&D campaign, exactly, and think about the answer for a while.

Because it looks like you might be doing it for the wrong reasons.

It's not because you want to spend the entire campaign preventing your PCs from doing cool stuff.

It's not because you want all that cool stuff they do to be a complete waste of effort.

It's not because you want to show them that doing all that cool stuff is the wrong way to play D&D.

Or at least, it shouldn't be.