Banishment sucks!!!!... when it happens to you

[djreynolds]

Banishment sucks, the demon we fought just kept spamming banishment here and this kneeling fear there. I hate those spells.

It is so tough even with indomitable or lucky or whatever, not to fail these. Even next to the paladin with his +5 bonus.

Most builds do not have powerful charisma saves, aside from paladin, sorcerer, or warlock or bards, maybe a cleric.

Even with advantage the only guy passing the charisma save was the paladin, my fighter said screw it after his 3rd failing, ditched the shield and sword, and pulled out his longbow with his mighty 10 dexterity and stayed as far away as possible and did half damage when he did hit.

His banishment just completely deprived the party of my fighter. The poor paladin got smacked around.

I'm starting to rethink stuff, charisma saves might be worth taking resilient in.

[Daehron]

Heh heh heh

I loved tossing Maze on a certain OP Dwarven EK with that damned hammer.

No save, just a skill check to get out.

Lesson learned: the *real* dump stat in 5e is Strength...

Players hate it when the bad guys are smarter then they are...

[Mellack]

Banishment sucks, the demon we fought just kept spamming banishment here and this kneeling fear there. I hate those spells.

It is so tough even with indomitable or lucky or whatever, not to fail these. Even next to the paladin with his +5 bonus.

Most builds do not have powerful charisma saves, aside from paladin, sorcerer, or warlock or bards, maybe a cleric.

Even with advantage the only guy passing the charisma save was the paladin, my fighter said screw it after his 3rd failing, ditched the shield and sword, and pulled out his longbow with his mighty 10 dexterity and stayed as far away as possible and did half damage when he did hit.

His banishment just completely deprived the party of my fighter. The poor paladin got smacked around.

I'm starting to rethink stuff, charisma saves might be worth taking resilient in.

Banishment can be troublesome, but the real problem was when you said they "spammed" it. It is a 4th level spell to effect one person. Each additional target means another level up, and it is concentration. I am not sure what demon this supposedly was, as none in the MM have banishment at all. But you did find a way to do something, even if minor.

[Potato_Priest]

Banishment can be troublesome, but the real problem was when you said they "spammed" it. It is a 4th level spell to effect one person. Each additional target means another level up, and it is concentration. I am not sure what demon this supposedly was, as none in the MM have banishment at all. But you did find a way to do something, even if minor.

Isn't there some sort of banishment type spell that gives you a banish every turn as a melee spell attack?

[djreynolds]

Our DM gave this demon lair actions

[Parra]

Banishment can be troublesome, but the real problem was when you said they "spammed" it. It is a 4th level spell to effect one person. Each additional target means another level up, and it is concentration. I am not sure what demon this supposedly was, as none in the MM have banishment at all. But you did find a way to do something, even if minor.

The Arcanealoth has up to 3 uses of it using its default spell selection, more if it uses its higher level slots (its a lvl 16 wizard). Technically its a Yugoloth(fiend) and not a Demon(fiend), but to a PC it might not matter.

[DeAnno]

Monster Hunter Superiority Dice FTW :smallbiggrin:

[djreynolds]

point is... it tough to decide resilient wisdom vs charisma... as those spells suck to fail

Funny as it sounds, a berserker barbarian has some potential with mindless rage.

So you have fear and charm defended, not hold person which does suck, but then take resilient charisma.

[BW022]

Our DM gave this demon lair actions

Ok. Then that isn't a problem with the banishment spell, it is a problem with the DM.

Banishment is a concentration spell. Lair action or not, you can't have multiple concentration spells up. If cast at higher level (5+) it might affect multiple people. However, he can't cast it (or another concentration spell) without the first spell ending. Unless he is casting using a higher-level spell slot, it is only going to affect one person per turn. Further, if you are high enough levels to have demons casting banishment at will, then presumably you have PCs able to dish out 50+hp per hit, which is a DC 25 concentration check, or able to spam it with lots of little hits resulting in 5+ concentration checks per round. Or presumably, you have something at those levels which prevents casting (silence,

Even ignoring the concentration issue...

If the DM is giving 4th-level spells out as lair actions, then polymorph sucks -- you'd end up fighting an endless series of 157hp giant apes or tyrannosaurus's. So is faithful hound -- by the end of round 5, you'd have 5 hounds each doing 20d8 damage to anyone in 5 feet of you. Heck, with an 8 hour duration, cast 5 of them every morning. Most 4th-level spells -- at will -- is going to be an issue.

[Millface]

Heh heh heh

I loved tossing Maze on a certain OP Dwarven EK with that damned hammer.

No save, just a skill check to get out.

Lesson learned: the *real* dump stat in 5e is Strength...

Players hate it when the bad guys are smarter then they are...

Two high level enemy casters target the most dangerous party member in unison. The first casts feeblemind, the second casts maze. Bye bye!

[eastmabl]

Two high level enemy casters target the most dangerous party member in unison. The first casts feeblemind, the second casts maze. Bye bye!

For... like a minute. Unless the party is on another plan of existence.

[Millface]

For... like a minute. Unless the party is on another plan of existence.

10 minutes or until the maze caster is dead

[mgshamster]

Ok. Then that isn't a problem with the banishment spell, it is a problem with the DM.

Banishment is a concentration spell. Lair action or not, you can't have multiple concentration spells up. If cast at higher level (5+) it might affect multiple people. However, he can't cast it (or another concentration spell) without the first spell ending. Unless he is casting using a higher-level spell slot, it is only going to affect one person per turn. Further, if you are high enough levels to have demons casting banishment at will, then presumably you have PCs able to dish out 50+hp per hit, which is a DC 25 concentration check, or able to spam it with lots of little hits resulting in 5+ concentration checks per round. Or presumably, you have something at those levels which prevents casting (silence,

Even ignoring the concentration issue...

If the DM is giving 4th-level spells out as lair actions, then polymorph sucks -- you'd end up fighting an endless series of 157hp giant apes or tyrannosaurus's. So is faithful hound -- by the end of round 5, you'd have 5 hounds each doing 20d8 damage to anyone in 5 feet of you. Heck, with an 8 hour duration, cast 5 of them every morning. Most 4th-level spells -- at will -- is going to be an issue.

Why is it a problem? It's just the Gold Dragon's lair actions:

LAIR ACTIONS
On initiative count 20 (losing initiative ties), the dragon takes a lair action to cause one of the following effects; the dragon can't use the same effect two rounds in a row:

• The dragon glimpses the future, so it has advantage on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws until initiative count 20 on the next round.

One creature the dragon can see within 120 feet of it must succeed on a DC 15 Charisma saving throw or be banished to a dream plane, a different plane of existence the dragon has imagined into being. To escape, the creature must use its action to make a Charisma check contested by the dragon's. If the creature wins, it escapes the dream plane. Otherwise, the effect ends on initiative count 20 on the next round. When the effect ends, the creature reappears in the space it left or in the nearest unoccupied space if that one is occupied.

[MeeposFire]

Well for one it sounds like it used it round after round that lair action cannot.

[Mellack]

Also that is only a DC 15. Considering the paladin was giving them a +5, I would think they could make that at least 50%. He also mentioned advantage. Maybe the OP was more complaining about rolling terrible?

[mgshamster]

Well for one it sounds like it used it round after round that lair action cannot.

Most likely, it was banishment on one round, then the kneeling fear lair action the next round. Those who failed the banishment check then had the opposed charisma check to escape on the other rounds as well, making it feel like it was every round.

By round 3, he had the banishment lair action again. Back and forth. With opposed charisma checks ongoing.

[Laserlight]

Why is it a problem? It's just the Gold Dragon's lair actions:


If it's Banishment--as in the spell--then it's concentration and lasts a minute, which is a lot more problematic than the Gold Dragon's lair action.

[mgshamster]

If it's Banishment--as in the spell--then it's concentration and lasts a minute, which is a lot more problematic than the Gold Dragon's lair action.

Most likely, the player doesn't actually know what the GM is using, and guessed it was the banishment spell and not a pre-written lair action that he doesn't know exists from another beast that was tacked on to the monster they were currently fighting. People tend to do that when they don't actually know - they assume and guess based on current knowledge.

Similarly, none of us actually know either, and my assumption and guess is that it was a copy of something already written into the MM rather than a GM saying, "I think I'll give this creature an at-will 4th level spell that ignores concentration."

But hey, I try not to assume the worst in people until evidence shows otherwise.

[Pex]

In the 5E group where I play a Sorcerer there is another Sorcerer and we both know Banishment. In one particular adventure we had a fight trying to close a portal to a plane of demons. When we finally demolished its means of existing on our side it was necessary to do so on the other side. The other Sorcerer volunteered to go in and do it. Having done so, he cast Banishment on himself. Since he wasn't on his home plane he Banished himself back home and after the official minute duration it was permanent.

[djreynolds]

The DC was 23. It was Graz'zt. He was given lair actions, and had multiple minions

[Dalebert]

Don't take resilient Cha over one strange encounter. I believe you will have buyer's remorse. It's a rare save. Take Dex, Con, or Wis if you do it.


The DC was 23. It was Graz'zt. He was given lair actions, and had multiple minions

I've played this module once and run it twice.

You were on the ethereal plane and Banishment would send you to the Material plane (your home) and thus wouldn't incapacitate you. There's also a convenient portal to get to the ethereal from there but that lair is set up so it's tedious to get back. From memory, you would end up high in the air inside that stalactite and then fall, not very far, sliding down the sloping side of the tower but probably taking some falling damage. You could run back to his lair from there assuming you'd cleared the way already and thus wouldn't have to fight anything again. You'd also take a few fire damage on the way up from the central orb. From memory, I'd guess it'd take at least 3 rounds dashing the whole way.

It's possible he could lose that lair action if the right demon in his lair is destroyed. Each kill weakens him in some specific way.

UPDATE:
I just looked at that module because I didn't remember a banishment and I don't see it on him. Possible a demon minion has it but if so, I certainly don't see how it could be "spammed".

[Hrugner]

Prevent action abilities are always a bit of a downer when used on players. I try to avoid them personally.

[Spellbreaker26]

In the 5E group where I play a Sorcerer there is another Sorcerer and we both know Banishment. In one particular adventure we had a fight trying to close a portal to a plane of demons. When we finally demolished its means of existing on our side it was necessary to do so on the other side. The other Sorcerer volunteered to go in and do it. Having done so, he cast Banishment on himself. Since he wasn't on his home plane he Banished himself back home and after the official minute duration it was permanent.

That sounds amazing, a really creative use of the spell.
Sort of a emergency plane shift.

[Ethambutol]

Prevent action abilities are always a bit of a downer when used on players. I try to avoid them personally.

I think they're okay when used sparingly, but I'm pretty easy going. I derive most of my fun from the shenanigans that are happening on the table as a whole rather than my personal actions. I'm perfectly content with my character being out of commission as long as it's because something interesting is happening in the game in general.

[djreynolds]

Don't get me wrong the battle was very fun. And others we allowed to shine, and I did some book keeping on my Android

Banishment hurts, even for 10 rounds.

But a very fun battle.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Why is it a problem? It's just the Gold Dragon's lair actions:

LAIR ACTIONS
On initiative count 20 (losing initiative ties), the dragon takes a lair action to cause one of the following effects; the dragon can't use the same effect two rounds in a row:

• The dragon glimpses the future, so it has advantage on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws until initiative count 20 on the next round.

One creature the dragon can see within 120 feet of it must succeed on a DC 15 Charisma saving throw or be banished to a dream plane, a different plane of existence the dragon has imagined into being. To escape, the creature must use its action to make a Charisma check contested by the dragon's. If the creature wins, it escapes the dream plane. Otherwise, the effect ends on initiative count 20 on the next round. When the effect ends, the creature reappears in the space it left or in the nearest unoccupied space if that one is occupied.

The real issue is if "Kneeling Fear" is also a Lair action. Because then that monster had two "Save or be incapacitated" Lair actions (banishment and 'kneeling fear'). Gold dragons only have one. The "You can't use the same Lair action every round" rule is there pretty much entirely to keep monsters from spamming Lair effects like that. Thus, with a gold dragon, it can't deny you more than half your rounds with Lair actions alone but this modified Grazz't could.