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Vadin
2007-07-17, 04:02 PM
Out of curiosity, how much would a potion of Wish cost? And what about a magic item that could cast Wish at will for 0 xp (since the xp would be paid in the creation cost?)

Only reason I'm asking about the potion is that we recently came into a large amount of gp in the campaign I'm playing, and I'm considering (if they aren't too much) getting some of these just in case.

TheLogman
2007-07-17, 04:06 PM
The max level a spell can be to become a potion is 3, so no potion of wish.

However, a Ring of three Wishes costs 97,950 gp, or 11,475 gp and 15,918 exp. Perhaps you could work out a deal with the DM?

It does take caster level 20 though...

Arakune
2007-07-17, 04:08 PM
or the potion grants wishs to anyone that you chose, except you.

Jack_Simth
2007-07-17, 04:15 PM
Well, ignoring the little issue that you can't put a 9th level spell into a potion, Core....

Wish would just follow the normal formulas: Spell level * caster level * 50 gp + 5 gp per xp (5,000 xp, so 25,000 gp) for a price tag of (assuming caster level 17): 32,650 gp. But you wouldn't want it - the person who DRINKS the potion has no control over what it does - the person that CRAFTED the potion chooses all variable effects.

A widget of Command-Word Wishes would theoretically run:
Command-word base * spell level * caster level + multiplier to use for spell components on an at-will item * xp to gp multiplier* xp component cost = 1800*9*17+100*5*5000=2,77,5400 gp.

That would give you an at-will Wish with no additional costs (so if the Wish would require more XP - say, because you're creating a magic item, it would fail; likewise, if the Wish would require more material components - say, because you found a spell to duplicate with a material component cost of 11,000 gp, the spell would fail).

Oh, and the crafter? Has to have 511,016 loose XP to craft it ... which is unlikely to happen.

mabriss lethe
2007-07-17, 04:19 PM
Dunno about pricing, but as a GM I would make sure any item that granted unlimited wishes had some major, major baggage attached to it. If I allowed it at all.

You can't keep something like that a secret forever. People will hear about it, people will want it. These people will have resources you can't even imagine to throw at you. You'd wind up using those wishes just to keep the item out of enemy hands. As for enemies, Pretty much everyone is now your potential enemy. Religious institutions, no matter what their leaning, will want it, either to keep such a powerful item out of "undeserving hands" or just because they want the power for themselves. Mage's guilds, criminal organizations, Secular empires, even the local innkeeper, will want that ring. You have to sleep sometime, don't you?

jindra34
2007-07-17, 05:02 PM
Dunno about pricing, but as a GM I would make sure any item that granted unlimited wishes had some major, major baggage attached to it. If I allowed it at all.

You can't keep something like that a secret forever. People will hear about it, people will want it. These people will have resources you can't even imagine to throw at you. You'd wind up using those wishes just to keep the item out of enemy hands. As for enemies, Pretty much everyone is now your potential enemy. Religious institutions, no matter what their leaning, will want it, either to keep such a powerful item out of "undeserving hands" or just because they want the power for themselves. Mage's guilds, criminal organizations, Secular empires, even the local innkeeper, will want that ring. You have to sleep sometime, don't you?
And enevitably the gods, higher demons etc. will start coming after you. After all greed is not limited to mortals?

Kraggi
2007-07-17, 05:05 PM
You have to sleep sometime, don't you?
Not if you wish otherwise!

...My lack of knowledge about DnD is probably shining through right there.

Vadin
2007-07-17, 05:08 PM
If the caster got his xp for the now tentatively dubbed Wishing Hat from a bunch of followers with that feat (can't remember which one...) that lets you give your own xp for someone else's magic item crafting. Throw in some other high-power characters and their cohorts and their followers and their cohort's followers...all the xp for the item seems a tad more feasible.

So mayhaps we, the players, couldn't get it, but a mighty ruler or a powerful and influential individual...not as crazy sounding all of a sudden.

mabriss lethe
2007-07-17, 05:17 PM
Not if you wish otherwise!

I'm thinking that might fall under that grey area of "Wish" where you can wish for something outside the safety zone of the spell, but if you didn't want to end up a zombie (the undead have no need of sleep), then you'll need a staff of trained legal/magical experts on retainer in order to come up with the precise wording for each and every wish.

Be careful what you wish for...

CthulhuM
2007-07-17, 11:13 PM
I'm thinking that might fall under that grey area of "Wish" where you can wish for something outside the safety zone of the spell, but if you didn't want to end up a zombie (the undead have no need of sleep), then you'll need a staff of trained legal/magical experts on retainer in order to come up with the precise wording for each and every wish.

You could, however, use the "duplicate an 8th level or lower wizard/sorcerer spell" option on wish to keep yourself constantly polymorph any objected into an outsider of some sort, and avoid sleeping that way.

Roderick_BR
2007-07-18, 08:59 AM
If you can find a high level wizard willing to cast Wish, it's easier and cheaper to hire one :p

Evil DM Mark3
2007-07-18, 09:40 AM
A "Potion of Wish" would in fact be a single use, use activated, wonderous item. (Like the Elixre of stealth). Remember that what a wish can do is deffined very clearly in the spell, no effect outside of that will occur, no matter how many lawyers you use, the spell will merely use the most logical effect it CAN do. "I wish that I would never sleep" polymorph any object into summin. "I wish for infinate wealth" makes the epic magic item that makes gold coins, and gets the xp from you.

mabriss lethe
2007-07-18, 04:08 PM
Remember that what a wish can do is deffined very clearly in the spell, no effect outside of that will occur, no matter how many lawyers you use, the spell will merely use the most logical effect it CAN do. "I wish that I would never sleep" polymorph any object into summin. "I wish for infinate wealth" makes the epic magic item that makes gold coins, and gets the xp from you.

Taken from the SRD:

Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm)


You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

Evil DM Mark3
2007-07-18, 05:25 PM
Yes, and the logical extention of that is that it will do so by using what it can do via the normal spell, admitedly that is a small logic leap.

sigurd
2007-07-18, 06:29 PM
I love the idea of a potion of wish that is controlled by the brewer not the drinker. A great trap with hefty consequences.

I wish the drinkers life would be drained of all its vitality and his or her strength and powers given to me forever without penalty......


Potion of Wish for sale! Potion of wish for sale! You look like a powerful young elf......



Sigurd

Peregrine
2007-07-18, 11:25 PM
And what about a magic item that could cast Wish at will for 0 xp (since the xp would be paid in the creation cost?)

Quoting myself from elsewhere (shameless, I know, but if I've already figured out the answer once...)


You know, I've noticed something.

You can craft a repeating wish trap for 2,576,500 gp and 6,120 XP. Now, that's a whole lotta gold (almost 23 and a half metric tons actually). But hey, gold is cheap, XP is not. You get endless wishes (normally 5,000 XP a pop) for just 6,120 XP. Cheaper than any other method.

Of course, you probably have to designate the specific effect of the wish, rather than getting any or all of its possible effects from just the one 'trap'. But when you have a magic rock that drops a 25,000gp magic item whenever you touch it, you can afford to make a few more. (Make six, one for each ability score, and you and everyone you know can get +5 inherent bonuses in every score!)

Of course, each one takes 14 years, 40 days to create...

And if a repeating wish trap just makes the veins stand out in your DM's forehead, you can go for a one-shot version for just 32,650 gp and 612 XP...

There you go. Infinite wishes for no XP. The crafter doesn't even have to pay the normal XP cost for the spell (they pay a whole lot of gp instead). Depending on your interpretation, it may cause one specific wish effect every time, rather than letting you designate your wish when you trigger it. I would say 'DM's ruling', but no sane DM would ever, ever let this pass...

Elana
2007-07-20, 03:45 AM
...There you go. Infinite wishes for no XP. The crafter doesn't even have to pay the normal XP cost for the spell (they pay a whole lot of gp instead). Depending on your interpretation, it may cause one specific wish effect every time, rather than letting you designate your wish when you trigger it. I would say 'DM's ruling', but no sane DM would ever, ever let this pass...

Not quite.
I'm pretty sure you have to cast the spell once. So you have to pay the 5000Xp once.

(of course for a trap that will make a 500 pounds of gold each time you trigger it, that is still quite cheap :) )

Korias
2007-07-20, 06:01 AM
I think what he means is No EXP after the initial casting.

Peregrine
2007-07-20, 06:04 AM
Not quite.
I'm pretty sure you have to cast the spell once. So you have to pay the 5000Xp once.

You'd think so, wouldn't you? But nope. Check the magic device trap crafting rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#magicDeviceTrapCost). You only pay a certain amount of XP that is based on the caster level and spell level of each spell you're putting into the trap. Any XP components that these spells incur are not paid; instead, you pay gold in their place (5 times the XP for a one-shot trap, or 500 times for a resetting trap).

As a matter of fact, the same goes for all wondrous items (which a magic device trap is)...


...the creator ... need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item.

Jack_Simth
2007-07-20, 06:17 AM
Quoting myself from elsewhere (shameless, I know, but if I've already figured out the answer once...)



There you go. Infinite wishes for no XP. The crafter doesn't even have to pay the normal XP cost for the spell (they pay a whole lot of gp instead). Depending on your interpretation, it may cause one specific wish effect every time, rather than letting you designate your wish when you trigger it. I would say 'DM's ruling', but no sane DM would ever, ever let this pass...

Look at the Ring of Three Wishes:

Three Wishes: This ring is set with three rubies. Each ruby stores a wish spell, activated by the ring. When a wish is used, that ruby disappears. For a randomly generated ring, roll 1d3 to determine the remaining number of rubies. When all the wishes are used, the ring becomes a nonmagical item.

Strong evocation (if miracle is used); CL 20th; Forge Ring, wish or miracle; Price 97,950 gp; Cost 11,475 gp + 15,918 XP.(Emphasis added)

With the sheer amount of XP going into the ring for three wishes, it's kinda obvious that you're paying the XP for the XP component.

Take a look at a Tome or Manual:

Manual of Bodily Health: This thick tome contains tips on health and fitness, but entwined within the words is a powerful magical effect. If anyone reads this book, which takes a total of 48 hours over a minimum of six days, he gains an inherent bonus of from +1 to +5 (depending on the type of manual) to his Constitution score. Once the book is read, the magic disappears from the pages and it becomes a normal book.

Strong evocation (if miracle is used); CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, wish or miracle; Price 27,500 gp (+1), 55,000 gp (+2), 82,500 gp (+3), 110,000 gp (+4), 137,500 gp (+5); Cost 1,250 gp + 5,100 XP (+1), 2,500 gp + 10,200 XP (+2), 3,750 gp + 15,300 XP (+3), 5,000 gp + 20,400 XP (+4), 6,250 gp + 25,500 XP (+5); Weight 5 lb.(Emphasis added)

Again, it's rather clear that the XP cost is for putting in the XP components for the component spell (Wish, or what is a presumably a "powerful request" with Miracle).

Peregrine, your hypothesis will not work at my gaming table.

Roderick_BR
2007-07-20, 06:52 AM
Hmm... so, a magic rock with the "duplicates any 8th level spell or lower" effect would be a formidable item...
Make one to duplicate cleric spells (the limit is 5th level? I don't remember now), and you are set for lots of useful healing and buffs, although I don't know if it can grant self-only buffs. It's the rock, not you that is casting it.

Peregrine
2007-07-20, 11:27 AM
Look at the Ring of Three Wishes:

...is a ring, not a wondrous item. Crafting a ring does require paying the XP components of the spells involved.


Take a look at a Tome or Manual:
(Emphasis added)

Again, it's rather clear that the XP cost is for putting in the XP components for the component spell (Wish, or what is a presumably a "powerful request" with Miracle).

Peregrine, your hypothesis will not work at my gaming table.

Eh? What hypothesis? I'm just quoting the rules. :smallconfused:

Fortunately the rules also state that these are merely guidelines for pricing wondrous items (though they don't say the same for crafting traps... it's just that they happen to have the same pricing rules and require the Craft Wondrous Item feat). The Tomes are obvious examples of where listed items break the guidelines, and a wish trap is an example of another that really, really should break them.

But if you ever have a DM who's known for blindly following the rules, and who gives you fourteen years in game... :smallcool:

Durin_Deathless
2007-07-20, 12:33 PM
dont cursed items cost half(thought that was the rule and it is in my setting). and you are using it as a trap to hurt the user(which in my view) makes it a cursed item.

Jack_Simth
2007-07-20, 06:19 PM
...is a ring, not a wondrous item. Crafting a ring does require paying the XP components of the spells involved.

No, but it makes a nice example.
Don't look at the Luckblade! Three-wish version costs only 5,718 xp, Core RAW, all laid out.



Eh? What hypothesis? I'm just quoting the rules. :smallconfused:

Fortunately the rules also state that these are merely guidelines for pricing wondrous items (though they don't say the same for crafting traps... it's just that they happen to have the same pricing rules and require the Craft Wondrous Item feat). The Tomes are obvious examples of where listed items break the guidelines, and a wish trap is an example of another that really, really should break them.

Hence why it's a hypothesis. Also why I said "at my table"


But if you ever have a DM who's known for blindly following the rules, and who gives you fourteen years in game... :smallcool:
Don't look at the Wish spell. 5,000 xp + twice normal crafting XP gives you the item. If your infinite wish trap counts as a magic item costing only 612 xp, that's 6,224 xp for an infinite use wish trap, in one standard action.

And you'll need Wish available to Craft it to begin with.

Peregrine
2007-07-23, 03:35 AM
No, but it makes a nice example.
Don't look at the Luckblade! Three-wish version costs only 5,718 xp, Core RAW, all laid out.

Weapons, like wondrous items (and unlike rings), don't incur XP costs for the spells involved. So the luckblade is priced according to the guidelines, while a tome or manual is not.


Hence why it's a hypothesis. Also why I said "at my table"

I'm still a bit dubious about your use of the term "hypothesis"... but yes, at your table -- and at the table of any DM with common sense... :smalltongue:


Don't look at the Wish spell. 5,000 xp + twice normal crafting XP gives you the item. If your infinite wish trap counts as a magic item costing only 612 xp, that's 6,224 xp for an infinite use wish trap, in one standard action.

And you'll need Wish available to Craft it to begin with.

No go. 612XP is for the one-shot version, which costs 32,650gp. That's beyond the 25,000gp limit for a normal wish. Never mind the millions of gp for the resetting version...

Jack_Simth
2007-07-23, 05:56 AM
I'm still a bit dubious about your use of the term "hypothesis"... but yes, at your table -- and at the table of any DM with common sense... :smalltongue:

It's a hypothesis because it doesn't work in practice (and is thus not confirmed as a theory through testing).




No go. 612XP is for the one-shot version, which costs 32,650gp. That's beyond the 25,000gp limit for a normal wish. Never mind the millions of gp for the resetting version...
Ah, well, the 25,000 gp limit for a Wish is for nonmagic items; a magic item does not face that limit, Core RAW; they just cost double crafting XP in addition to the 5,000 for the Wish itself. As a magic trap counts as a magic item, the 6,120 xp version can be made with a single Wish and 17,240 XP - if it's permitted, which it won't be for any sane DM (unless it's a deliberate exersize in munchkinning).

Dausuul
2007-07-23, 07:38 AM
It's a hypothesis because it doesn't work in practice (and is thus not confirmed as a theory through testing).

The D&D rules aren't science, they're law.

I think what you mean to say is that his idea is not forbidden by statute, but most jurisdictions have administrative regulations against it.

Maltrich
2007-07-23, 01:05 PM
You know, if you were playing AD&D 2e, you'd earn a ton of experience by creating a potion of wish, rather than it costing you any...

Of course, depending on your DM, you might also spend years scouring the Outer Planes for rare, strange, and possibly unobtainable ingredients, to be used in a potion-making process that would be both inconvenient and probably dangerous.

EDITED because I remembered that wish didn't even have an XP cost in that edition.

Thurge Of Ages
2007-07-25, 05:06 AM
Take the artificer feats to reduce price, time and exp. To make the wish item.

Just done forget that 2m gp item will take 2k days to make or what ever the time is.

Yakk
2007-07-25, 12:48 PM
That price seems reasonable for some versions of the effect.

Give it a 2 month reset time, and restrict the effects you can do with it... (or 6 uses per year).

Ie, change a +0 to a +1 inherit bonus to one particular stat and it doesn't allow you to boost it from +1 to +2 or higher.

Create 25,000 gp of wealth (7.5% return on investment per year).

Etc.