Sorcerer's get a bad rap - Is it deserved? [Archive]

Anonymouswizard

2016-12-27, 04:03 PM

In a lot of games there is the mindset that something not being the "best" or "optimal" makes it unworthy to play. This is true in Dungeons and Dragons as well, which strikes me as odd, because I can't think of a game where this logic applies less.

To be fair, GiantITP is a bit weird as a forum, in that we are rather optimisation-friendly. Pretty much nobody cares if you're playing something suboptimal in your home game, I've done it myself (although personally I tend toward mid op in most games). But discussion here will tend towards what's the 'best'.

I actually suspect that, in the heyday of 3.5, most people preferred playing a slightly weaker character, either a high-op low tier or a focused high-tier.

A Sorcerer isn't a "bad" character. Sorcerers can have an enormous impact on a battle and have unique, interesting options with their spellcasting. If someone's fantasy is an innate spellcaster with wild, raw, bursting magical power, who can manipulate magic because it's simply a part of them, then they'll roll a Sorcerer.

My problem with the 5e Sorcerer is that, except for Metamagic, I could take a Lore Bard and it feels like someone with innate magic just as much, if not more. It's literally the spells that annoys me, it doesn't feel like 'innate spellcaster' so much as 'dabbler', due to getting about one spell per spell level (okay, that's unfair, it's closer to 1.5), while a bard gets a handful plus the ability to nab from other caster's lists. To me this is fine, I'll just play a Lore Bard and feel like an innate caster, and Geoff can play a Sorcerer and feel like an innate caster.

Is the hate "warranted"? Maybe. I question whether or not a player should really care, though. Not everyone wants to play a Bard.

It does hurt that they are less versatile and have a spell selection problem though. Personally I just tend to handwave certain things with Sorcs. Offer 1-2 more spells maybe, and if I have a player doing Wild Magic I would simply remove the infamous Fireball TPK from the table for the early levels. That serves no purpose but to upset your party and bring all the blame on a single player.

To fix the Sorcerer I'd actually just ban Wild Sorcerer, maybe add Origin Spells, and maybe give them a new spell known every level (one or the other).

What I'm actually a bit disappointed at is that the Sorcerer's origin has so little to do with their spells known. I think I'd have actually preferred the Sorcerer if they didn't get any choice in their spells known other than their choice of origin.

MintMilano

2016-12-27, 04:18 PM

To be fair, GiantITP is a bit weird as a forum, in that we are rather optimisation-friendly. Pretty much nobody cares if you're playing something suboptimal in your home game, I've done it myself (although personally I tend toward mid op in most games). But discussion here will tend towards what's the 'best'.

I actually suspect that, in the heyday of 3.5, most people preferred playing a slightly weaker character, either a high-op low tier or a focused high-tier.

That's fair, and it's not that I'm against optimization - I do it for most of my characters I build - my point is that it's simply not necessary in most campaigns.

My problem with the 5e Sorcerer is that, except for Metamagic, I could take a Lore Bard and it feels like someone with innate magic just as much, if not more. It's literally the spells that annoys me, it doesn't feel like 'innate spellcaster' so much as 'dabbler', due to getting about one spell per spell level (okay, that's unfair, it's closer to 1.5), while a bard gets a handful plus the ability to nab from other caster's lists. To me this is fine, I'll just play a Lore Bard and feel like an innate caster, and Geoff can play a Sorcerer and feel like an innate caster.

The spell selection is a good point that I agree with in general, and is probably the biggest objective flaw with the class.

"Roll a bard instead" however, I can't quite get behind, but I suppose that it partially depends on how RP heavy your table is - I personally have an attachment to the class fantasy of Sorcs, both as a player and a DM. I don't see Bards and Sorcerers are directly translatable because they have similar innate magical powers. It's very Apples and Oranges to me.

To fix the Sorcerer I'd actually just ban Wild Sorcerer, maybe add Origin Spells, and maybe give them a new spell known every level (one or the other).

What I'm actually a bit disappointed at is that the Sorcerer's origin has so little to do with their spells known. I think I'd have actually preferred the Sorcerer if they didn't get any choice in their spells known other than their choice of origin.

See, I love Wild Sorc and think it can offer campaign-defining moments with very good (or very bad!) WM rolls. I am a slightly more liberal DM when it comes to Wild Magic though, so obviously that will vary table to table.

Millface

2016-12-27, 04:23 PM

WINGS

That is all.

Spiritchaser

2016-12-27, 04:23 PM

UA
Favored Soul - I mean, there's very little to not love. The lv6 feature is kind of a waste, though, but the bonus spells make up for it.
Shadow - One of the toughest class archetypes to kill, really.

I would agree that both these selections ARE very strong, however it is often suggested that they are brokenly out of balance with regards to core options. I think if you were going to argue that sorcerer was strong because shadow and FS were strong, then you would be on firm grounds, so long as everyone agreed to the frame of reference for the discussion.

I'm going to fall back on the "if it's much better as a MC than as a non MC, it's got issues" argument for dragon sorcerer, however I don't have enough experience with wild or storm to venture much of an opinion.

famousringo

2016-12-27, 04:41 PM

A problem I haven't seen mentioned yet is the sorcerer's dependence on long rest resources. Other casters enjoy better proficiencies, Ritual Magic, Invocations, and nifty short rest specialties like Inspiration and Wild Shape that allow them to contribute while conserving spell resources. If a sorcerer isn't spending spell slots or equivalent sorcery points, he won't have much to contribute.

The solution to both this and the versatility problem is multiclassing. Sorcerer combos nicely with almost anything, and almost always gains more from a dip than it sacrifices for it. A sorcerer without a multiclass is like a fighter without feats, IMO.

DragonSorcererX

2016-12-27, 04:49 PM

The Dragon Sorcerer is the best class because of one reason:
DRAGON BLOOD

Also Charisma, Spellcasting, Wings, Scales, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood, Dragon Blood!!!

They are perfect Mary Sues, almost better than Favored Souls that are the Mary Sue - The Class.

JAL_1138

2016-12-27, 05:24 PM

Sorcerers make rather good buffers, too. Twin Haste, Twin Greater Invisibility, etc.—nobody else can cast two instances of those spells at once.

RickAllison

2016-12-27, 05:34 PM

Subtle Suggest a king give you favorable treatment without fear of consequences for a successful save (no evidence). Subtle Minor Illusion of yourself with Misty Step or (on another turn) Subtle Invisibility to slip away unnoticed.

Distant Counterspell is delicious for shutting down casters as the standard tactic for evading that is to move 61+ feet away, which is manageable during their turn, though there are not so many other great options if Range: Self (X-foot) do not count; an excellent choice for one of the later Metamagics.

Empowered Metamagic is great for making your booms a little more powerful, working best for AoEs; not much of a boost, but you get to choose to use it afterwards.

Extended is a great Metmagic to extend buffs like Mage Armor over a long rest, or to use short rest slots from a warlock dip and replenish them. Alternatively, extend spells like Invisibility. Again, something to pick up later on.

Joe the Rat

2016-12-27, 05:39 PM

DragonSorcererX

2016-12-27, 05:41 PM

I think you might have a little bias on this one.

Dragonborn Dragon Sorcerer (with two different dragon origins) is clearly the better Mary Sue Dragon.

Maybe, but this is being poser... and what origins? Silver for race and red for class (because the Draconomicons say that Silver and Red Dragons are Arch-Enemies)?

Loomerian

2016-12-27, 05:50 PM

It's just harder play as a sorc. You gotta be a know-it-all about spells to get specially the versatile ones, use metamagic properly and on a party without anymore casters you are the face. Some people just don't like it.

Sorcerer optimization is also tricky. Quickened spell is a gamechanging feature, really. Some crap spells like Witch Bolt and Maximilian Earthen's Grasp can be really good on a sorcerer using quickened spell properly.

Twin spells are also something hard to control. Everybody would say one of the best debuffs even to sorc to twin is Hold Person. NOPE. Hold Person is a huge mistake. Many amazing concentration spells are a mistake. Blindness/Deafness or Pyrotechnics are better. Save you concentration maybe for a Max Grasp, a Witch Bolt, a Slow, something else.

Tricky class but played well and with creativity is a blast. I have a sorcerer wild magic tiefling one and it's the most loved PC i have. By far. I regret nothing about playing as sorc. :D

Naanomi

2016-12-27, 06:06 PM

Sad to see Dragon as the 'default'... I prefer Wild Magic (have since 2E, but the chart was really crazy back then... oh the 'Permenant spell effect' stories I have)

RumoCrytuf

2016-12-27, 06:08 PM

For as long as I can recall, since 5Es release, Sorcs have gotten a bad rap. "Why play a Sorc when ______ does it better?"

"Portent Wizards are better"
"Druids get better spells"
"Clerics get better armor"

Etc. I've heard a lot of arguments, a lot of things said. Sorcs have gotten very little love, from my observation.

But is it warranted?

Lets look at the vanilla class, sans archetypes.

Few spells known. A legit criticism. So whatever you pick, you need to make sure its versatile, or it's your go-to.
Con save proficiency. Can't complain about that, gotta love it.
Metamagic & Sorcery Points. This is the bread and butter, what makes a Sorcerer.

Metamagic can turn the tide of a battle faster than anything. Often literally with Quickened Spell. Twinned Spell lets you target two creatures. Buffs like Haste on Paladins or Rogues can destroy an encounter before it happens, and can easily stretch your spell slots. And causing an enemy to roll disadvantage on a save can take them right out of... Well, the entire world in some cases (Disintegrate?) Metamagic literally breaks the rules of spellcasting in some cases, something no other class can do.

Now, the archetypes.

Draconic - Really, so many spells use fire that if you aren't going Fire as a Dragon Sorc, it's a bad move. Cold is decent.
Wild - Finnicky, and having to consult the Wild Magic table constantly can slow down the pace of play to a crawl. Also, the frequency of occurrence is out of your hands.
Storm - Certainly thematic, though the SCAG version is neutered compared to the UA one.

UA
Favored Soul - I mean, there's very little to not love. The lv6 feature is kind of a waste, though, but the bonus spells make up for it.
Shadow - One of the toughest class archetypes to kill, really.

I really think the Sorcerer is much better than people give it credit for.

There are many factors into deciding whether or not to play a certain class. I've got a player who is a sorcerer. He's not the most damage dealy in the group, but it's fun for him to play. That's what counts my friend. Do you enjoy metamagicing things to death? Do you like not having to pour over books for hours at a time memorizing spells? Do you like having wings at later levels? Yes? Then play a sorcerer.

MinotaurWarrior

2016-12-27, 06:33 PM

"Roll a bard instead" however, I can't quite get behind, but I suppose that it partially depends on how RP heavy your table is - I personally have an attachment to the class fantasy of Sorcs, both as a player and a DM. I don't see Bards and Sorcerers are directly translatable because they have similar innate magical powers. It's very Apples and Oranges to me.

On a related note: I'm probably the one guy out there who hates the 5e bard. Honestly, I think it kinda does feel just like a sorcerer to me... and I'd rather play a bardy bard. I wish they were more apples to oranges. I want my tasty tasty orange, with its songs and limited spellcasting and all.

jaappleton

2016-12-27, 06:39 PM

Oh, I am VERY much a fan of the Sorc. I adore it.

It's just that the lack of love for it is something I've seen since the beginning of 5E. I've yet to actually play one, but only because my group seldom needs me to be the Face. And because... well... my DM has developed a love / hate relationship with my creativity. :smalltongue:

Rhedyn

2016-12-27, 06:47 PM

Twin cantrips + dragon bloodline = great "at-will" damage whenever there is two or more monsters.

And you are a fullcasters on top of that. Sorcerers are really competing with warlocks at who can be the better party face/solid damage/control speller.

Warlock get invocations and short rest spells while sorcerers get long rest spells and concentration proficiency.

Twin polymorph on two tanks is always fun.

JumboWheat01

2016-12-27, 06:48 PM

Sorcerers do have some problems, and a lot of it comes down to choices and non-choices.

There are three official archtypes, Dragon, Wild and Storm. Wild suffers from the fact that it is pretty much in the control of the DM. If the DM forgets to have you roll, you're really losing out on one of the main points of being a Wild Sorcerer.

Storm has a lot of blasty potential, but it's quite focused and unfortunately tied to a splat book. If you play AL, that prevents you from using any other allowed splats.

Dragon Sorcerers have five nice elements to chose from, but if you choose anything but Fire, you're going to find out how limiting the Sorcerer spell list is.

And then there's the number of spells known. While you have more cantrips than anyone else, you have less spells available to you than any other full caster. Heck, Paladins, a half-caster, has more spells available to cast than you ever learn.

You do have Metamagic, a sweet feature that lets you mess around with the spells you know, but that feature requires Sorcery Points and Spell Slots, because you still need to cast the spell in the first place. If you hold back on your Sorcery Points for "just in case" situations, you're really not any different than a Wizard who can't customize their spells.

Oh, and a Sorcerer must always use their Spell Slots for utility or supportive spells, as they are the only full caster without Ritual Casting built into their class in some way, shape or form. They have to burn an ASI on a feat in order to do so, unlike, say, Warlocks, who if they want Ritual Casting, can easily snag it without much cost to themselves.

So yeah, there are a good few negatives.

On the other hand, they are the only full caster to start with Constitution saves, which means they don't have to worry about their Concentration as much, especially at early levels, and Constitution saves can be quite useful for keeping yourself alive. Heck, the two half-casters don't get Constitution saves built in as well.

Also using Charisma makes them easy to Multiclass, as three other classes use Charisma for their casting stat. It's quite nice when you have a shared stat like that. And since you only have one stat requirement, you can easily have a second stat high enough for whatever class you want to Multiclass into.

And Dragon Sorcerers can get Concentration-free flying that lasts as long as they want. That's just plain sweet.

Hawkstar

2016-12-27, 06:49 PM

My problem with Sorcerers is their lack of spells known. Seriously - every other class gets a comparable number of spells known and slots, while Sorcerers don't even know as many spells as the dude with only two spell slots.

My problem with Bards is the lack of long-duration area buffs. Couldn't the designers have thrown in the bard songs of old as spells?

Pex

2016-12-27, 06:59 PM

I don't need the Forum's permission to play what I want. I currently play a Sorcerer and am having a blast. I do not and will not have Quicken Spell. Fire is my element, and when I face fire resistant creatures I don't scream and yell about the unfairness of it all. I just do something else. I get plenty of opportunities to cast Fire Bolt and Fireball at other times. Wall of Fire has been an excellent control spell. Enhance Ability has been an effective buff spell on myself and others and sometimes both via Twin.

MrStabby

2016-12-27, 07:38 PM

Sorcerers are really powerful, the problem is that they are 1) seen as blasters and 2) seen as simple.

A sorcerer as a blaster is a waste and actually not playing to it's strengths. Sure if you go for a draconic sorcerer you can do blasting well when needed but it should only be part of a repertoire of spells. To be fair the WotC seem to have guided people into thinking that way. Metamgic like careful spell makes a sorcerer an enviable disruptor/controller - good con saves help keep concentration on this type of save better than any other caster.

When people see the sorcerer as a simpler version of the wizard they often guide it to new players when in fact it needs much more system mastery to get the most out of it. This doesn't mean it can't be fun for newer players in a lower optimisation game though.

The lack of spells is a distinct call feature and requires great planning. I have seen some new players just play a draconic sorcerer and keep adding the most damaging spell in their element they can to their spell list each time they get a new one and no swapping any out. I have seen players be determined to have a spell available for every level of spell slot they have. Metamagic is at the heart of the sorcerer and to be effective you should use it. A lot. Sacrificing spell slots to gain more sorcery points is what fuels your power. If this means you drop all 2nd level spells and expect to convert all those slots into sorcery points - that is fine. Do you need scorching ray as a spell when you can use that slot for the metamagic to twin/quicken a firebolt for more damage? Find the spells that scale well when cast from a higher slot, the versatility they offer can free up spells know choices for more specialist spells.

Players, especially new players, also seem to sometimes use metamagic in only one way. For example quicken spell seems to mainly be used (by my observation) to cast a spell and to also cast a cantrip in the same round. A bit more system mastery may mean that it occurs to you to use the dash action to get into a better position for your lightning bolt/cone of cold/whatever area spell instead - sometimes a much better use of metamagic.

The sorcerer spells known is adequate - it prompts hard decisions but is amply compensated for through the massively powerful metamagic. The sorcerer may be badly designed in that it is tough to play to squeeze the maximum power out, but it is not a weak class - not by a long way. You can still pick spells targeting different saves with a variety of effects and different damage types (don't fall into the trap of playing a draconic sorcerer then thinking you need to stick to that element type for damage). It isn't the class it is the players.

I am not saying the players are wrong - it is fine to want to RP a specialist in wild magic or one element and to focus on one type of spell. It is fine to want a class that does that and to feel that the closes that 5th ed goes is the sorcerer. It may be useful to not confuse the sorcerer not doing what some people want with the sorcerer not being powerful. I think that a lot of the "not what I wanted" concerns are from old 3.x players who saw the spontaneous casting feature of sorcerers given to all casters as some kind of betrayal but who don't correspondingly value metamagic which has been taken from all casters and given to sorcerers alone.

Regulas

2016-12-27, 07:40 PM

I think really the biggest reason for anyone disliking sorcerer it's that it's main feature includes silly combo power (quicken the nova optimiser dream), has limited uses per day (points) and the class is otherwise a bit limited, even metamagic you can only pick 2.

So basically the class feels to me like a wizard who trades off most of a wizards strengths for a gimmick :p.

Personally I think you should get more (if not just plain all) meta magic, maybe somehow focusing more on weaker options (as I feel like a lot of it's limitations are based more on limiting quicken/heighten then the rest).

Maybe instead of sorcery points you just got uses per short rest with weaker options getting more uses, and then you can pick more metamagic overall.

Gastronomie

2016-12-27, 07:44 PM

I believe that most people who say Sorcadins are bad have never actually used them. Sure, some might have, but at least I didn't feel they were that underpowered.

I mostly enjoy playing a Sorcadin, but I've also played pure Sorcerer. Both of these cases, I was able to cooperate with my teammates and be pretty effective in combat. Metamagic is a heavily underrated ability, especially Careful Spell. That thing is nuts when paired with Web, or Stinking Cloud, or that lot.

However, I do feel that they could have got more Spells Known and it wouldn't have hurt. 15 spells known at level 20? Seriously? The idea that you need to forget old spells to learn new ones seems really weird and unsettling for me, not just because it's weak mechanic-wise but also because it seems wrong. It's like arguing that the more better you get at playing the piano, you get worse at riding a bicycle or something. Easily forgetting talents and skills is just... you know, weird. We're not like, Pokemon or anything.

Naanomi

2016-12-27, 07:59 PM

Swapping spells makes more sense as a wild sorcerer perhaps... 'I used to be able to fly, now I can't... why? Who knows?! I don't know how I knew to fly in the first place!'

Giant2005

2016-12-27, 09:06 PM

Sorcerers are basically the specialist Wizards of this edition. Their focus is always going to be narrow, but they are going to be extremely good at it. Considering any optimized builds are optimized by focusing intensely on one narrow goal, Sorcerers are an optimizer's dream.
I love them.

jaappleton

2016-12-27, 09:50 PM

JakOfAllTirades

2016-12-27, 09:51 PM

JAL_1138

2016-12-27, 10:00 PM

Do you guys think the community consensus on Sorcs has changed as 5E has gained more experience under its proverbial belt, as people have come to understand what they're great at and what their strengths are in this edition?

Or is there still a negative stigma?

Until this thread I didn't know there was a negative opinion of them. They hardly provoke as many arguments as Champion Fighters, Four Elements Monks, or (un-revised) Beastmaster Rangers.

Specter

2016-12-27, 10:15 PM

Naanomi

2016-12-27, 10:19 PM

I think the opinion now is about the same as it was in the beginning... not a bad class, some unique tricks, but loses a lot in versatility and likely on the 'weaker' end of being a caster

Wild Magic has some more specific complaints (ability explicitly tied to GM decision to let you use it) but it rarely enters discussions of the class as a whole

Regulas

2016-12-27, 10:44 PM

Until this thread I didn't know there was a negative opinion of them. They hardly provoke as many arguments as Champion Fighters, Four Elements Monks, or (un-revised) Beastmaster Rangers.

Because there's not a "balance issue" per say, just major build limitations that make them less popular picks. People I see who play Sorcerers usually (like with Warlocks) play them for the style ("i'm a dragon mage") because you can usually do just as good with another caster, only get more spells.

ApplePen

2016-12-27, 11:25 PM

JAL_1138

2016-12-28, 12:58 AM

The big issue is that sorcerer lacks. They get the least spells out of any dedicated caster, and their spell selection is almost entirely combat focused. The sorc spell list is like "single target variable element damage, damage but it's AoE, damage with a kicker, one utility or defense spell"

And you get one of them. Two if you swap out an earlier spell.

The bolded part is flat-out inaccurate.

Sorcerer utility spells:
Charm Person
Comprehend Languages
Disguise Self
Feather Fall
Fog Cloud
Jump
Alter Self
Detect Thoughts
Enhance Ability
Darkness
Darkvision
Dimension Door
Enlarge/Reduce
Invisibility
Knock
Levitate
Phantasmal Force
See Invisibility
Spider Climb
Suggestion
Blink
Clairvoyance
Daylight
Dispel Magic
Fly
Gaseous Form
Major Image
Tongues
Water Breathing
Water Walk
Dimension Door
Greater Invisibility
Polymorph
Creation
Seeming
Telekinesis
Teleportation Circle
Wall of Stone
Arcane Gate
Move Earth
True Seeing
Etherealness
Plane Shift
Reverse Gravity
Teleport
Gate
Wish
There are quite a few of them, including some of the best ones for any caster. (Think that's the lot, though I may have omitted a few).

Defense spells:
Mage Armor
Shield
Blur
Mirror Image
Protection from Energy
Stoneskin
Globe of Invulnerability
Rather few, so I'll grant that to a degree, but they're all pretty good.

Non-damaging combat spells:
Expeditious Retreat
Sleep
Blindness/Deafness
Gust of Wind
False Life
Hold Person
Misty Step
Web
Counterspell
Fear
Haste
Hypnotic Pattern
Sleet Storm
Slow
Stinking Cloud
Banishment
Confusion
Dominate Beast
Dominate Person
Hold Monster
Dominate Monster
Power Word Stun
Time Stop
Not a huge list, but some of the big ones.

There are somewhere around 75, maybe a few more (I lost count) spells here--around five times more non-damaging utility, buff, debuff, or control spells here than the Sorcerer has spots for Spells Known. There are more of them than there are total spells on a half-casters' entire spell list. Yeah, you're right that they get the fewest spells known of any fullcaster (Warlocks get Mystic Arcana, bringing their total higher). 15 isn't many. But the spell list has plenty of options, and there's nothing to stop you from building a Sorcerer without a single blasting spell whatsoever, and still have really good spells.

ApplePen

2016-12-28, 01:37 AM

Perhaps its just that many of those do the same thing as others on the list. Point conceded, though you have dimension door in there twice on the master list

SharkForce

2016-12-28, 02:01 AM

they're certainly not unplayable. more like... not as satisfying as it could be.

they have a small spell list that misses out on some of the most amazing spells, with little rhyme or reason to it sometimes. why don't sorcerers get wall of force or conjure minor elementals? i don't know. they just don't.

they have no particular "special" spells of their own, either. there's not really an area where sorcerers stand out as getting the awesome spells that wizard, their closest conceptual equivalent, does not. the few spells they do get that wizards don't, don't really set them apart (and sometimes continue to highlight weirdness... why do sorcerers get enhance ability when wizards don't? i have no idea).

then the spells known. it's just so painful. they get so few, and it just feels too limiting. *especially* if your main goal isn't to kill everything with fire. you need to spend a couple spells on being able to nuke, and then let's say your goal is to debuff enemies... ok, so now you want to be able to target all the different saves, plus have, say, 2 nukes (probably fireball plus one other)... plus, you want 1 or 2 to be able to defend yourself... so there's all your spells known until level 9. then you want to start adding different effects in case of immunities, just like you want a backup damage spell in case fireball is the wrong element... and you want a bit of utility... and it's all locked in until the next time you level up... it's just *really* tight. but it isn't really a focused kind of tight at that point. there's probably nothing thematic about it. you don't feel like a necromancer wizard who is an expert at controlling the undead, or an abjurer who has powerful protective abilities. your stuff is just... all over the place. it's a hodge podge of random stuff that you kinda need if you're going to try to fill the role of being the primary spellcaster for your party. and if you don't do that, then you probably have some fairly large holes in your spell list where the stuff people would expect a party's primary spellcaster can do just isn't there.

their archetype abilities don't generally set them apart either. an enchanter or a diviner starts feeling like an enchanter or diviner at level 2. i mean, not just in that they have different archetype abilities, i mean for many wizard subclasses it starts impacting how you use your spellcasting ability right from the start. it changes how you plan your spells known and prepared to some extent. that feels a lot less true for me when it comes to sorcerers. the spell list will probably look mostly the same regardless of subclass. i mean, i *might* consider making some small changes like picking up lightning bolt instead of fireball if i'm making a storm sorcerer, but mostly, it's gonna be pretty same-y. a necromancer will want animate dead to create a skeleton army and can heal an absurd amount with vampiric grasp... meanwhile a storm sorcerer gets a small reposition and a bit of AoE damage centered on themselves when a lightning spell is cast. not exactly life-altering.

now, metamagic is great, don't get me wrong. it's a powerful ability, and i'd love to have it... on any other character.

which brings me to the final point: sorcerer just feels like the class where the way to get the most out of it is to not be a sorcerer, but to be a multiclass build with varying levels of sorcerer. and most of the time, no matter how many sorcerer levels you have, the defining elements of the character are the non-sorcerer parts. for a long time, everyone was super excited about sorcerers that took 2-3 levels of warlock and spam the crap out of eldritch blast. just a tiny dip of warlock, but if you watched the character play, you'd probably mostly think of them as a warlock with metamagic. same with the sorcerer/paladin multiclass builds we're hearing about these days... sure, they typically involve far more sorcerer levels than paladin (i've seen some builds discussed with 11 paladin levels, but they're never as highly recommended as 2 or 6 paladin levels). and they play more like a paladin with metamagic and more spell slots than they do like a sorcerer for the most part. (as a kind of sad case-in-point on the limited spells known and spell list, the paladin/sorcerer multiclass combinations that go deeper into paladin are generally doing it for the increased spells known and to actually get access to some unique spells that paladins get).

perhaps a major part of it, for me at least, is that the sorcerer that i found interesting was the 3.x sorcerer. mechanically, they were by far weaker than a wizard, but i liked the idea of them better, and they still had a big enough spell selection and a big enough spell list to cover a lot of situations. you were probably going to be picking a lot of versatile spells if you wanted to be optimized, but there was at least *some* room for specialized stuff most of the time. they had spontaneous casting over other spellcasters, which meant that a sorcerer that made good choices could almost always have a "pretty good" option on hand. now in 5e, that's a lot harder to realize... and it feels like the design decisions are focusing a lot more on the 4e sorcerer, which i personally loathe deeply (this probably has a lot to do with the fact that while the 4e wizard at least tried to preserve some of the feel of the wizard that i had - a difficult thing in that edition - the 4e sorcerer did exactly the thing i hated most about WotC's 3.x sorcerer designs... trying to make them a nuker with few if any options for utility). you absolutely can make a sorcerer that focuses on nuking stuff in 5e... and that is exactly the kind of sorcerer i wish WotC would just shut the hell up and stop trying to push on me. if i'm playing a wild sorcerer, the last thing i want at level 18 is some joke of an ability that lets me do a tiny bit of extra damage. if i'm playing a dragon sorcerer, i don't want a marginally better firebolt, i want to feel like i am a dragon. i should be breathing fire, not casting slightly hotter than usual fire spells.

so now sorcerers have metamagic, which is cool, but nobody else can have it, which is decidedly less cool, and sorcerers aren't allowed to have much of anything else cool, because metamagic is a major thing. and it feels like i'm being pushed towards a role that i absolutely despise, or if i want to fill the role that i like, i'm heavily rewarded for choosing a different full caster class with possibly a small 3 level splash of sorcerer (which is a pretty heavy cost that severely hurts the effectiveness of those other classes, so probably not even that). very little of what made the class originally appeal to me in 3.x has survived unless it has also been given to everyone else (oh hey look, now everyone else gets to enjoy the benefits of spontaneous casting, but i'm still stuck dealing with the drawbacks of spontaneous casting from 3rd... oh goody).

it's just not very satisfying, and i don't play D&D to feel frustrated by the rules failing to support my ideas for a character.

that doesn't mean it can't be satisfying for someone else, of course. like i said, if you want to nuke, or if you want to make another class more awesome, sorcerer works. i just wish it did more to support the 3.x idea of the sorcerer while also being able to support those people that want to go the 4e route where the sorcerer was a striker better... because quite frankly, exclusively nuking has not been the best use of magic in any edition of D&D, and 5e is no exception to that).

(oh, and also... i'm not terribly thrilled about wild magic being exclusively tied to the sorcerer, but that's relatively minor).

Gwendol

2016-12-28, 02:55 AM

I don't think sorcerers get any spells for their class only, which is weird. To me the sorcerer fluff and crunch don't rhyme very well. Wild magic comes closer, but they are still limited by casting the same spells as the next class. No unique spells is definitely a downer.

raygun goth

2016-12-28, 03:10 AM

TheUser

2016-12-28, 03:20 AM

Sorcerers are one of the most misunderstood classes in the game; it makes sense that a class which forces the complexities of spell manipulation into it's builds would be under utilized by a majority of the community.
The class scales up the most and starts off relatively "meh" so it often gets a bad reputation. More spells + more sorcery points + more slots + more metamagics increases power and options on an exponential level. To illustrate, a level 17 Sorcerer can cast wish to mimic any level 8 spell and has 4 metamagics to choose from: Quicken + Empowered call lightning, subtle geas, heightened feeblemind, the possibilities are staggering. Each metamagic has a plethora of uses and should be planned accordingly.

Subtle spell is the king of metamagics. I've written volumes about being able to cast magic with no visible or audible trace being horrendously OP. It seperates the good sorcerers from the god sorcerers.

In short, the vocal majority do not have the cerebral fortitude to "game" the sorcerer to its fullest.

Giant2005

2016-12-28, 03:25 AM

I don't understand what's so great about Quicken. I can spend 2 points out of my precious resource to, what, cast an extra cantrip? Whoopty-freakin'-doo.

You could phrase it that way, or you could phrase it as "I spend 2 points out of my precious resource to top the damage charts for a round", and that is actually a pretty good deal considering your other means of topping the damage charts for a round require expending a high level spell slot.

Socratov

2016-12-28, 04:16 AM

I don't understand what's so great about Quicken. I can spend 2 points out of my precious resource to, what, cast an extra cantrip? Whoopty-freakin'-doo.

Been playing a wild mage sorcerer for about six months, have had the opportunity to try several spell loadouts (thanks to GM intervention), and no matter the loadout, so far best options in the field have been "cast chromatic orb again" and "get outclassed in every avenue of my niche by the bard."

You could phrase it that way, or you could phrase it as "I spend 2 points out of my precious resource to top the damage charts for a round", and that is actually a pretty good deal considering your other means of topping the damage charts for a round require expending a high level spell slot.

quicken is great because for 2 points of your precious resource you get to basically use the Fighter's action surge. during which you can take any action as long as it's not casting a 2nd non-cantrip spell during your turn. considering spells like moonbeam, sunbeam an witchbolt (you know, those who use a slot at first, but then on subsequent turns use an action to use) or dashing, disengaging, using an item and any other action you can pretty much do anything during your turn. A sorcerer, like a rogue, excels at action economy use. Even if I's consider that the sorcerer should get a smidgen more love. first I'd make it so that you can't make spellslots with sorcery points (you can still trade spellslots for sorcery points). then you recharge X points on a short rest, give sorcs slightly more spells known and finally make sure that by lvl 11 he has all of his metamagic options. In this way they are not betteries for other classes through multiclassing, no sir, by now they are fearsome casters with their own signature move: adapting magic on the fly.

Buy the way, for 1st lvl chromatic orb you'd better use twin spell instead of quicken as it saves you 1 sorcerypoint per use (twin spell's cost varies as it is tied to the level of the spellslot used)

MrConsideration

2016-12-28, 04:28 AM

I have not played a Sorcerer, but I think a lot of the stigma stems from the normal theory assumptions made when comparing classes.

People overstate the Wizard's versatility because they can easily claim a combination of spell that will end almost any encounter. Whether or not they would actually have those spells prepared or be in a position to cast them is ignored - 'spells known' is misread. You can know every spell in the game but you still only cast once per Standard Action. Metamagic is very versatile and the blasting Sorcerer got a lot of mileage from Twinning Scorching Ray and similar at lower levels.

As usual. this is all irrelevant because people in play generally won't notice any obvious discrepancy between characters.

Gastronomie

2016-12-28, 04:44 AM

Quickened Spell is honestly bad for a pure Sorcerer IMO. It's flat-out broken for a multiclass build though.

raygun goth

2016-12-28, 04:56 AM

You could phrase it that way, or you could phrase it as "I spend 2 points out of my precious resource to top the damage charts for a round", and that is actually a pretty good deal considering your other means of topping the damage charts for a round require expending a high level spell slot.

Good luck. Cleric reliably churns out 6d8+4/round pretty much every encounter for the whole encounter, ranger/rogue spits out 16d6+18 (then goes again for 6d6+12), the comparatively weak fighter does 2d8+16 twice and knocks both of those targets prone (resourceless, double that if spending resources), meanwhile, yeah, hey, great, you spent 1/3 of your daily to do an extra 2d10. Good job.

Concentration spells like sunbeam or witchbolt are choosing to either do pretty poor damage for the resource you started them with or have up a buff not die.

I think it's really just the spells known - there just aren't enough. Something as simple as giving them the spells known as the bard would really push it through. I also think the designers were afraid of metamagic, and overestimated its usefulness.

Little boy

2016-12-28, 05:00 AM

No one burns people down like a sorcerer. You can buy and move the spell slots you need and meta magic is incredibly strong. It all depends on style really. Nothing ends a CR 5 encounter like 3 maximized fireballs. Also, in terms of dpr, the sorcerer can be king. You can max fireballs, twincast disintegrate, heighten a hold person. Your spells feel like they matter just little more when you need them. Also, you get some fun flavorful abilities. No one else can really cast without words or movements. I rant, but sorcerer does what sorcerer has always done. It does it's job very well specifically. Everything last that, good luck

Dr. Cliché

2016-12-28, 06:25 AM

I don't know if they're bad per se, but every time I try to start making one I'm quickly put off the idea. Generally for two reasons:

1) Spells known. Sorry, but there's just no excuse for their number of spells known being so pitiful.

I don't mind ~0.75 spells per level for the warlock because a) it replaces low level spell slots with higher-level ones (so I can freely replace low level spells with stronger versions at higher levels) and b) they only have a few spell slots anyway.

In contrast, the sorcerer is a full caster, yet they know barely any spells. Hell, when you consider that the warlock's level 6+ spells are separate, the sorcerer actually has fewer spells known.

I just find this far too restricting. Sorry, but utility spells only go so far - especially when you barely allowed any of them to begin with.

Finally, why don't the different sub-classes get you extra spells known? It seems really obvious:
- Dragon Sorcerer could have either elemental spells or dragon-y spells.
- Storm Sorcerer could have lightning, thunder and/or flight related spells.
- Shadow Sorcerer could have illusion, invisibility and/or teleport-y spells
- Wild Sorcerer could maybe give random spells (possibly from other classes) or something.

Even if these only gave an extra spell every couple of (spell) levels, it would be a vast improvement.

2) So, the sorcerer gets as many sorcery points as a monk gets Ki points. But, unlike Ki, sorcery points don't recharge on a short rest. :smallyuk:

Not only that, but much of their metamagic require a substantial investment of sorcery points. And yes, I know that you can use spells to replenish sorcery points - but now you're just burning your other daily resource, so it's hardly much of an improvement.

On top of that, one of the Shadow Sorcerer's main class features drains your sorcery points even more.

Let's say that my shadow sorcerer is level 6. I can use his Hound of Ill Omen class feature all of twice in one day. And, by doing so, I'm also using up his entire metamagic allowance for that day.

Is there a reason why sorcery points couldn't recharge on a short rest?

I don't know if sorcerers are actually weaker than other classes, but I just find them far too restrictive.

Specter

2016-12-28, 07:41 AM

I don't understand what's so great about Quicken. I can spend 2 points out of my precious resource to, what, cast an extra cantrip? Whoopty-freakin'-doo.

I don't know, how about disengaging melee foes without wasting your entire turn like all other casters do? Or casting a spell and being in dodge (along with Shield as a reaction) just to frustrate all your attackers? Or dashing away from counterspell range and then casting your spell against the wizard? Quicken is amazing, if you pay attention to the battlefield. Start doing it.

Dr. Cliché

2016-12-28, 08:59 AM

The bolded part is flat-out inaccurate.

Sorcerer utility spells:
Charm Person
Comprehend Languages
Disguise Self
Feather Fall
Fog Cloud
Jump
Alter Self
Detect Thoughts
Enhance Ability
Darkness
Darkvision
Dimension Door
Enlarge/Reduce
Invisibility
Knock
Levitate
Phantasmal Force
See Invisibility
Spider Climb
Suggestion
Blink
Clairvoyance
Daylight
Dispel Magic
Fly
Gaseous Form
Major Image
Tongues
Water Breathing
Water Walk
Dimension Door
Greater Invisibility
Polymorph
Creation
Seeming
Telekinesis
Teleportation Circle
Wall of Stone
Arcane Gate
Move Earth
True Seeing
Etherealness
Plane Shift
Reverse Gravity
Teleport
Gate
Wish
There are quite a few of them, including some of the best ones for any caster. (Think that's the lot, though I may have omitted a few).

Have a look at the ones I've bolded. Now ask yourself whether you'd actually take these on a class that knows barely 2 spells per (spell) level.

Most of these are useless spells, masquerading as actual options.

(Note: for the most part, 'useless' means 'useless for sorcerers'. Wizards can freely have these spells in their spellbook, on the off-chance that they'll be useful. Sorcerers don't have that luxury and so can't afford to blow what few spells they're allowed to know on spells that will be useful once in a blue moon.)

they're certainly not unplayable. more like... not as satisfying as it could be.

they have a small spell list that misses out on some of the most amazing spells, with little rhyme or reason to it sometimes. why don't sorcerers get wall of force or conjure minor elementals? i don't know. they just don't.

they have no particular "special" spells of their own, either. there's not really an area where sorcerers stand out as getting the awesome spells that wizard, their closest conceptual equivalent, does not. the few spells they do get that wizards don't, don't really set them apart (and sometimes continue to highlight weirdness... why do sorcerers get enhance ability when wizards don't? i have no idea).

then the spells known. it's just so painful. they get so few, and it just feels too limiting. *especially* if your main goal isn't to kill everything with fire. you need to spend a couple spells on being able to nuke, and then let's say your goal is to debuff enemies... ok, so now you want to be able to target all the different saves, plus have, say, 2 nukes (probably fireball plus one other)... plus, you want 1 or 2 to be able to defend yourself... so there's all your spells known until level 9. then you want to start adding different effects in case of immunities, just like you want a backup damage spell in case fireball is the wrong element... and you want a bit of utility... and it's all locked in until the next time you level up... it's just *really* tight. but it isn't really a focused kind of tight at that point. there's probably nothing thematic about it. you don't feel like a necromancer wizard who is an expert at controlling the undead, or an abjurer who has powerful protective abilities. your stuff is just... all over the place. it's a hodge podge of random stuff that you kinda need if you're going to try to fill the role of being the primary spellcaster for your party. and if you don't do that, then you probably have some fairly large holes in your spell list where the stuff people would expect a party's primary spellcaster can do just isn't there.

their archetype abilities don't generally set them apart either. an enchanter or a diviner starts feeling like an enchanter or diviner at level 2. i mean, not just in that they have different archetype abilities, i mean for many wizard subclasses it starts impacting how you use your spellcasting ability right from the start. it changes how you plan your spells known and prepared to some extent. that feels a lot less true for me when it comes to sorcerers. the spell list will probably look mostly the same regardless of subclass. i mean, i *might* consider making some small changes like picking up lightning bolt instead of fireball if i'm making a storm sorcerer, but mostly, it's gonna be pretty same-y. a necromancer will want animate dead to create a skeleton army and can heal an absurd amount with vampiric grasp... meanwhile a storm sorcerer gets a small reposition and a bit of AoE damage centered on themselves when a lightning spell is cast. not exactly life-altering.

now, metamagic is great, don't get me wrong. it's a powerful ability, and i'd love to have it... on any other character.

which brings me to the final point: sorcerer just feels like the class where the way to get the most out of it is to not be a sorcerer, but to be a multiclass build with varying levels of sorcerer. and most of the time, no matter how many sorcerer levels you have, the defining elements of the character are the non-sorcerer parts. for a long time, everyone was super excited about sorcerers that took 2-3 levels of warlock and spam the crap out of eldritch blast. just a tiny dip of warlock, but if you watched the character play, you'd probably mostly think of them as a warlock with metamagic. same with the sorcerer/paladin multiclass builds we're hearing about these days... sure, they typically involve far more sorcerer levels than paladin (i've seen some builds discussed with 11 paladin levels, but they're never as highly recommended as 2 or 6 paladin levels). and they play more like a paladin with metamagic and more spell slots than they do like a sorcerer for the most part. (as a kind of sad case-in-point on the limited spells known and spell list, the paladin/sorcerer multiclass combinations that go deeper into paladin are generally doing it for the increased spells known and to actually get access to some unique spells that paladins get).

perhaps a major part of it, for me at least, is that the sorcerer that i found interesting was the 3.x sorcerer. mechanically, they were by far weaker than a wizard, but i liked the idea of them better, and they still had a big enough spell selection and a big enough spell list to cover a lot of situations. you were probably going to be picking a lot of versatile spells if you wanted to be optimized, but there was at least *some* room for specialized stuff most of the time. they had spontaneous casting over other spellcasters, which meant that a sorcerer that made good choices could almost always have a "pretty good" option on hand. now in 5e, that's a lot harder to realize... and it feels like the design decisions are focusing a lot more on the 4e sorcerer, which i personally loathe deeply (this probably has a lot to do with the fact that while the 4e wizard at least tried to preserve some of the feel of the wizard that i had - a difficult thing in that edition - the 4e sorcerer did exactly the thing i hated most about WotC's 3.x sorcerer designs... trying to make them a nuker with few if any options for utility). you absolutely can make a sorcerer that focuses on nuking stuff in 5e... and that is exactly the kind of sorcerer i wish WotC would just shut the hell up and stop trying to push on me. if i'm playing a wild sorcerer, the last thing i want at level 18 is some joke of an ability that lets me do a tiny bit of extra damage. if i'm playing a dragon sorcerer, i don't want a marginally better firebolt, i want to feel like i am a dragon. i should be breathing fire, not casting slightly hotter than usual fire spells.

so now sorcerers have metamagic, which is cool, but nobody else can have it, which is decidedly less cool, and sorcerers aren't allowed to have much of anything else cool, because metamagic is a major thing. and it feels like i'm being pushed towards a role that i absolutely despise, or if i want to fill the role that i like, i'm heavily rewarded for choosing a different full caster class with possibly a small 3 level splash of sorcerer (which is a pretty heavy cost that severely hurts the effectiveness of those other classes, so probably not even that). very little of what made the class originally appeal to me in 3.x has survived unless it has also been given to everyone else (oh hey look, now everyone else gets to enjoy the benefits of spontaneous casting, but i'm still stuck dealing with the drawbacks of spontaneous casting from 3rd... oh goody).

it's just not very satisfying, and i don't play D&D to feel frustrated by the rules failing to support my ideas for a character.

that doesn't mean it can't be satisfying for someone else, of course. like i said, if you want to nuke, or if you want to make another class more awesome, sorcerer works. i just wish it did more to support the 3.x idea of the sorcerer while also being able to support those people that want to go the 4e route where the sorcerer was a striker better... because quite frankly, exclusively nuking has not been the best use of magic in any edition of D&D, and 5e is no exception to that).

(oh, and also... i'm not terribly thrilled about wild magic being exclusively tied to the sorcerer, but that's relatively minor).

This sums up my thoughts pretty well.

Also, for me at least, Metamagic feels far more 'wizard-y' than 'sorcerer-y'.

Naanomi

2016-12-28, 10:10 AM

Have a look at the ones I've bolded. Now ask yourself whether you'd actually take these on a class that knows barely 2 spells per (spell) level.
Reverse Gravity is a favorite, highly rated on most of the optimization guides; and I've taken Enhance Ability and Dispel Magic both before... but yes most of that list is too niche to take with so few choices

Still, it isn't that bad to me. Heck, our other casters cast the same spells 90% of combat encounters (hello spiritual guardian)... my own sorcerer uses magic missile and animate object; with shield and misty step as needed, almost every time and doesn't feel much different than other casters in that regard

Addaran

2016-12-28, 10:24 AM

Honestly, I think these two are unrivalled in terms of general survivability, unless we're talking about very high level Wizards. A 20th level Wizard who regularly has Teleportation and/or Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion prepared will render most problems moot as well. Especially if he also has Wish. And all Wizard spells prepared will stay prepared even without a spell book, so the Wizard just loses the versatility.

From another thread about characters without their equipments.

That's the (not) funny part. As long as the wizard have 12 int, he'll have the same number of prepared spell then the sorcerer knows until the sorcerer starts lagging behind. So a bookless wizard still have more spells options then a sorcerer.

Rhedyn

2016-12-28, 11:06 AM

Sorc Ideas Red Dragon Blood, Spy, Half elf
10 str 14 dex 16 con 10 int 10 wis 16 cha
Skills: Deception, Stealth, Thieves’ tools, Cards, Intimidation, Persuasion, Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand
ASI: +2 cha, +2 cha, +2 con, +2 con, +2 dex
Languages: Common, Elvish, Draconic, Dwarf
Meta: Quicken, Twin, Heighten, Extend
0th: Firebolt, Prestidigitation, Minor Illusion, Mage Hand, Chill Touch, Blade Ward
1st: Disguise Self, Burning Hands, Shield
2nd: Invisibility, Enhance Ability
3rd: Fireball, Major Image
4th: Polymorph, Banishment
5th: Telekinesis, Animate Objects
6th: Globe of Invulnerability
7th: Teleport
8th: Earthquake
9th: Wish

Spellbreaker26

2016-12-28, 11:40 AM

I think Sorcs are a fine class, so long as you're careful with your spell picks.

There are, however, two main problems, one mechanical and one fluff:

Mechanically, they're equidistant between wizards and warlocks. Wizards have a very classic complex feel and a lot of versatility. Warlocks are the complete opposite, having much more of a focus on cantrips. Sorcerers are more complex than warlocks but not as flexible as wizards.

Fluff-wise, Sorcs essentially get handed their powers, either by chance or bloodline. I think the sense that you've been given power is kind of unattractive to people compared to the wizard's years of study or the creepy/edgy nature of the Warlock's pact. Obviously this can very from setting to setting.

But really, sorcerers can be extremely useful to any party. Our party has a pyromaniacmancer Sorcerer (with a level in one of light warlock as well) who kicks all kinds of rear. Unless you're playing adventurer's league, you can grab the Elemental Evil free Pdf for some much needed variety of choosable spells.

Discord

2016-12-28, 01:11 PM

Going to be starting a Curse of Strahd game again in early January. One of my players decided to be a Dragon Sorcerer so I changed a few things for him. I played a Favored Soul Sorcerer for a little over a year and I felt like these fixes would make the player enjoy the class much more.

1st: At level 3, you gain access to all of your metamagic. Starting at levels 3, 10, 17th, you can choose metamagics to be proficient in. If you are not proficient in a metamagic then it counts x2 the number of Sorcery points than normal.

Reasoning: A lot of the metamagics are extremely situational. This allows the player to pickup two metamagics they know they are for sure going to use often, and then in clinch situations they can use other metamagics for a steeper cost.

2nd: Added additional spells known at certain levels: 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th levels, he gets 2 additional spells at those levels, to make him feel a bit more draconic and offsetting his so few spells known.

3rd: I am letting him reskin damage types on spells since he wanted to be a Silver Draconic Sorcerer. Ex. Burning Hands = Freezing Hands

Since there is so few spells of types outside of Fire I figured this would be find, since the DMG advised one of the easiest ways to 'make' a new spell was to just change the damage type, I however advised him once he changes the damage type he can't go back to how the spell was originally intended unless he takes the spell again.

With those three fixes, I think he will enjoy his Sorcerer a lot more over the course of Curse of Strahd, assuming he makes it out of Death House of course.

TheUser

2016-12-28, 03:30 PM

Do you guys think the community consensus on Sorcs has changed as 5E has gained more experience under its proverbial belt, as people have come to understand what they're great at and what their strengths are in this edition?

Or is there still a negative stigma?

I would say that despite their limited spell list they are the most complex caster to play, as such they will probably be underutilised or appear bad to a majority of players because playing them effectively entails a lot of min-maxing.

ApplePen

2016-12-28, 03:58 PM

I'd say for sure that Sorcerer needs about 5 more spells known to shine on its own without any dipping. One per level isnt that much to ask is it?

RickAllison

2016-12-28, 04:09 PM

I would say that despite their limited spell list they are the most complex caster to play, as such they will probably be underutilised or appear bad to a majority of players because playing them effectively entails a lot of min-maxing.

Unless you are using Subtle Spell. Subtle Anything is a blast on its own and is well worth being a sorcerer for :smallbiggrin:.

JumboWheat01

2016-12-28, 05:57 PM

I'd say for sure that Sorcerer needs about 5 more spells known to shine on its own without any dipping. One per level isnt that much to ask is it?

I think what Sorcerers could really use is an extra spell slot for first through fifth levels. In 3e, they knew less spells than other casters, but could cast them far more often. That was their shtick, more spell slots (and not preparing spells, but still...)

Rhedyn

2016-12-28, 07:26 PM

Idk, my sorcerer feels op in our groups. Probably needs nerfed if anything.

Pex

2016-12-28, 08:08 PM

Unless you are using Subtle Spell. Subtle Anything is a blast on its own and is well worth being a sorcerer for :smallbiggrin:.

Subtle Enhance Ability Eagle's Splendor while obviously of more effort and resources gives a far better return on results than the Friends cantrip. You don't burn your NPC contact bridge.

Regulas

2016-12-28, 08:11 PM

Idk, my sorcerer feels op in our groups. Probably needs nerfed if anything.

The issue with Sorc's is more about restrictiveness of builds rather then on individual power. The fact that they are ok in terms of potential power with a specific build (plus high nova) is why discussion rarely focuses on sorcs too much, since the complaints are more ascetic per say then balance related.

Naanomi

2016-12-28, 08:13 PM

I think what Sorcerers could really use is an extra spell slot for first through fifth levels. In 3e, they knew less spells than other casters, but could cast them far more often. That was their shtick, more spell slots (and not preparing spells, but still...)
I suspect that is what using SP for spell slots was supposed to emulate; but it got undercut by the wizard spellslot regain on a short rest. I wonder how sorcerer would feel with less SP that regenerated on a short rest?

Coyote81

2016-12-28, 09:47 PM

I feel one thing that hasn't been pointed out much, is that out of the full caster classes, Sorcerer might be the best Pure Class Gish.

Reasons:
-In class innate armor
-access to melee cantrips
-access to melee spell enhancers like haste/shield
-Metamagic allows for further melee tricks

And if you throw in mulitclassing (with sorcerer as the main class instead of the usual Sorc3)
-Ranger 3 (Hunter) add a free attack even when using green flame blade, as well as a couple spells a Sorc would not normally have access to.
-Warlock 3 (Tome(for Shillelagh/Find Familiar)/Undying Light(more +Cha to fire)) Might be the most Optimized Gish I can come up with for damage potential for resources used.

ApplePen

2016-12-28, 10:24 PM

Hawkstar

2016-12-28, 10:39 PM

JAL_1138

2016-12-29, 02:12 AM

That's a melee sorcerer, not a Gish.

What exactly is a gish, if not a spellcaster who can fight with weapons well?

In AD&D, a "gish" was a Githyanki multiclass Fighter/Mage. That's where the term comes from--the Githyanki word for a Fighter/Mage. Back then, a Fighter/Mage couldn't even cast spells while wearing armor, because multiclassing didn't remove the restriction on it. So if they wanted to cast, they were a Wizard with better saves, better HP, and better weapon damage...at the cost of somewhat slowed leveling.

The definition expanded later to any fight-y mage. I fail to see how a Dragon Sorc who can Quicken a Greenflame Blade for, say, 1d8+Str mod+3d8+Cha mod to one enemy and 3d8+Cha mod to a second enemy, twice a round (far better damage than a paladin spending a first-level smite, without GWM at least), isn't a gish.

ImperiousLeader

2016-12-29, 10:24 AM

Ultimately, I feel that the "bad rap" is just the tendency of the Net and gamers to turn molehills into mountains. Sorcerers are still full casters with access to most of the most powerful spells. They're not a level behind like they were in 3.5, they have more cantrips and they have a limited ability to turn lower-level spell slots into higher level ones ... I think they're fine.

Now, I do wish they had more metamagic (both as in gaining more as they level and having more options to choose from), and spells unique to their class. But I kinda like the constraint of spells known.

Tanarii

2016-12-29, 10:31 AM

I suspect that is what using SP for spell slots was supposed to emulate; but it got undercut by the wizard spellslot regain on a short rest. I wonder how sorcerer would feel with less SP that regenerated on a short rest?
Wizards regain slots one per long rest. They just need a short rest to do it in. Just making sure you don't think Wizards are godly. :smallwink:

What exactly is a gish, if not a spellcaster who can fight with weapons well?A GISH is originally a warrior who self-buffs with magic.

Naanomi

2016-12-29, 12:29 PM

Wizards regain slots one per long rest. They just need a short rest to do it in. Just making sure you don't think Wizards are godly. :smallwink:
Well, per day... an important distinction sometimes; especially if variants start messing with rest times. They can also get 6th level slots when sorcerers can only get 5th, and get them back 'for free' instead of spending resources usually geared towards class-defining abilities. In any case, I still say its existence undercuts the 'sorcery points turn into more spell slots' hearkening back to sorcerer's 3.X superiority in this domain

Rhedyn

2016-12-29, 12:34 PM

Twinned cantrips out perform wizard cantrips.

You can only concentrate on one spell at a time anyways.

Sorcerers end up going much longer than wizards in rounds of combat because wizards need to spam spells to be effective while the sorcerer don't.

Dr. Cliché

2016-12-29, 12:43 PM

Twinned cantrips out perform wizard cantrips.

In other news, water is still wet.

Sorcerers end up going much longer than wizards in rounds of combat because wizards need to spam spells to be effective while the sorcerer don't.

Eh?

Isn't spamming spells the exact opposite of what wizards are supposed to do? (Cantrips notwithstanding.)

Socratov

2016-12-29, 12:52 PM

In other news, water is still wet.
*looks at username* yup, checks out :smallbiggrin:

Eh?

Isn't spamming spells the exact opposite of what wizards are supposed to do? (Cantrips notwithstanding.)

same for sorcs, However, sorcerers can get a bit more mileage out of their spells, due to metamagic.

Tanarii

2016-12-29, 01:06 PM

Well, per day... an important distinction sometimes; especially if variants start messing with rest times. They can also get 6th level slots when sorcerers can only get 5th, and get them back 'for free' instead of spending resources usually geared towards class-defining abilities. In any case, I still say its existence undercuts the 'sorcery points turn into more spell slots' hearkening back to sorcerer's 3.X superiority in this domainHuh. I could have sworn it said "once per long rest". Once per day has no meaning, because there's no definition of if it refers to recharging at sunrise, or sunset, or 24 hours after you last used it, or what. So yeah, that's a flaw right there.

I'm not disputing that the vast majority of the time a Sorcerer will spend his Sorc Points on Metamagic instead of extra spell slots.

JAL_1138

2016-12-29, 01:26 PM

A GISH is originally a warrior who self-buffs with magic.

Not originally. Orginally, as I already said, it's an AD&D Githyanki multiclass Fighter/Wizard. That's literally where the word comes from. The Monstrous Compendium/Monstrous Manual entry on Githyanki. Page 154 in the '95 two-column printing.

Gignere

2016-12-29, 01:31 PM

Huh. I could have sworn it said "once per long rest". Once per day has no meaning, because there's no definition of if it refers to recharging at sunrise, or sunset, or 24 hours after you last used it, or what. So yeah, that's a flaw right there.

I'm not disputing that the vast majority of the time a Sorcerer will spend his Sorc Points on Metamagic instead of extra spell slots.

I think the devs clarified that per day actually means after a long rest. Since you can't benefit from more than one long rest in 24 hours it is the same. They said that was an inconsistency in wording that they will remove going forward so in the newer books you shouldn't see per day wording but rather it will reference long rests instead.

Naanomi

2016-12-29, 01:41 PM

I think the devs clarified that per day actually means after a long rest. Since you can't benefit from more than one long rest in 24 hours it is the same. They said that was an inconsistency in wording that they will remove going forward so in the newer books you shouldn't see per day wording but rather it will reference long rests instead.
Actually... searching sage advice it appears the 'per day' language was intentional... but also a long reatnis required?... it isn't the only place it is used (weeks are also referenced)

DKing9114

2016-12-29, 03:35 PM

Actually... searching sage advice it appears the 'per day' language was intentional... but also a long reatnis required?... it isn't the only place it is used (weeks are also referenced)

Could be a way to boost the wizard when using the gritty realism resting rules, or in case an actual long rest is unavailable for campaign reasons.

Waazraath

2016-12-29, 03:38 PM

An argument I've missed so far in this discussion, and speaks for the (dragon heritage) sorcerer: it tends to go down a lot less compared with full casters like wizards and even (lore) bards in the early game.

5e is quite lethal at the lower levels. Having continuous +3 AC and 1 extra hp / lvl can make the difference. A wizard won't have mage armor on continously in the beginning, because you need your slots for sleep and the like, and the wizard has fewer hp. A lore bard starts with 2 less AC, only 1 less when later equipped with studded leather, with 1 more hp, but significantly weaker defensive spells at the early levels.

This might be annectotical, but in my experience the dragon sorcerer spends significantly less time knocked out on the floor, and less time dead.

Besides: having permanent +3AC saves spell slots otherwise expends on mage armor, and is de facto a free spell known, only much better. Same as the wings you get at level 14, which is a permanent, concentrationless fly. That's two more 'spells known' and extra slots.

Tanarii

2016-12-29, 07:18 PM

Not originally. Orginally, as I already said, it's an AD&D Githyanki multiclass Fighter/Wizard. That's literally where the word comes from. The Monstrous Compendium/Monstrous Manual entry on Githyanki. Page 154 in the '95 two-column printing.
GISH was a term long before '95.

Edit: quick google search indicates it may have been in the gith entry in the original Fiend Folio. I'm seeing if I can verify that.

Rhedyn

2016-12-29, 07:23 PM

GISH was a term long before '95.

The two column printing was not.

JAL_1138

2016-12-29, 07:39 PM

GISH was a term long before '95.

Edit: quick google search indicates it may have been in the gith entry in the original Fiend Folio. I'm seeing if I can verify that.

You're correct, Fiend Folio, 1981, page 43. Githyanki called their Fighter/Mages "gish" and Githzerai called theirs "zerths."

Point still stands that the term originated for Githyanki multiclass Fighter/Mages.

Tanarii

2016-12-29, 07:42 PM

You're correct, Fiend Folio, 1981, page 43. Githyanki called their Fighter/Mages "gish" and Githzerai called theirs "zerths."

Point still stands that the term originated for Githyanki multiclass Fighter/Mages.
Cool. I concede the point then.

Hawkstar

2016-12-29, 07:52 PM

JAL_1138

2016-12-29, 10:07 PM

And a Fighter/Mage was NOT "Melee Fighter who buffs himself in combat" - It's "Guy who casts spells and swings a sword when he doesn't want to spend a spell slot". 3rd Edition corrupted the concept by giving Wizards enough resources that they could be expected to be casting spells on a round-by-round basis with contributions measured in actions per turn instead of actions per adventure.

Modern GiantitP munchkins deride the classic, "True" Gish as a waste because it spends one round being a wizard, and the next few being a fighter.

Dagnabbed whippersnappers.

I have less issue with thinking the either/or of cast or attack is suboptimal when both can be done at once, since it's more about optimizing the action economy—i.e., what makes a more effective gish—in and of itself, than I do with the notion that a fight-y spellcaster isn't a "true gish" unless it either uses esoteric weapon-based magic that's unlike what a standard spellcaster gets, and/or is geared primarily around self-buffing, rather than being able to cast spells and be decent with weapons. It's not just this thread that notion has come up in; it seems to come up pretty regularly, and it brings out the "git off my lawn" grognard in me since I played fighter/mages and bards back in 2e and went up against actual Githyanki gishes on occasion.

I dunno, maybe we should abandon the term "gish" to the self-buffer or swordmage definition, regardless of the fact that's not how it started, and use the Githzerai term for Fighter/Mages, "zerth," for the classic caster/martial mix. There's overlap, especially these days, but the concepts can play quite differently.

...nah, "zerth" just sounds silly.

It might not have been a bad idea if the Githzerai term were more aesthetically pleasant.

Tanarii

2016-12-29, 11:08 PM

And a Fighter/Mage was NOT "Melee Fighter who buffs himself in combat" - It's "Guy who casts spells and swings a sword when he doesn't want to spend a spell slot".The majority of AD&D Fighter/Magic-users I saw were Fighters first, with whatever spells they could get their hands on after the pure Magic-users got first pick. Which usually means M-U typically got the offensive spells, and mc ones got whatever was left over.

But self-buffing was pretty common IMX. Unlike EKs, they couldn't wear Armor* (other than Elven Chain). So using your magic to make up for that lack, if you had the spells, was a pretty common choice. After all, you went into melee, unlike M-U, who had to stay out of it to avoid increased training costs for not acting magic-userly enough. (I was never clear on how the rating system for playing your class right was supposed to work for multi classed Fighter/M-U in that regard. One class you was to stay out of combat, the other was supposed to get in it.) After that utility was more common than offensive combat spells, mainly because as I said full M-U usually had those covered, per usually having learned more of them.

OTOH I played far more BECMI than AD&D 1e, so my experiences aren't necessarily representative. Although demi-humans weren't relegated to henchmen only, since most of the games I was in or ran were the typical smaller groups games, not on-going campaigns where level limits mattered.

*Edit: I believe I'm actually remembering 2e for armor restrictions. But that explains even more why I remember F/M-U mixing it up in melee in 1e and most often using buff or utility spells.

Edit 2: Talked with an old gaming buddy, and he reminded me why most Fighter/Magic-Users memorized either buff or utility spells in AD&D. You were very likely to be in melee, unlike a Magic-User, and trying to cast a spell in melee was a very good way to have it interrupted and lose it. Typically you only got one round to cast before you were helping form the line to protect the other Magic-users and Thieves. So it was best to buff or just save your spells for utility, effectively freeing up the single-class Magic-users to have more direct offensive spells.

Dimers

2016-12-29, 11:32 PM

...nah, "zerth" just sounds silly.

It might not have been a bad idea if the Githzerai term were more aesthetically pleasant.

'Gish' sounds better to you? No personal offense intended, but to my ear that's the sound you'd get if you dropped a plastic bag full of slush. I kinda like 'zerth' phonically.

Wouldn't be able to use the term, myself, because I can only think of Planescape: Torment when I hear it.

Shaofoo

2016-12-30, 12:03 AM

People really don't think far beyond their own feelings. Most people just look at the spell list by content and say that the Sorcerer is just an inferior Wizard without going beyond that. They think that more spells known means that the class is just inherently better regardless of any secondary characteristics.

The only criticism that I would think would stem from the archetypes is the Wild Sorcerer being too DM dependent to work, but then again magic as a whole is basically DM dependent if it requires expensive material components since you aren't guaranteed at all to get anything (cue people bellyaching because they might have to play in a world where expensive material components are not infinite and gotten at cost and that they can't find the 25k gp diamond in a hamlet).

Gignere

2016-12-30, 12:21 AM

I think the only issue I have with sorcerer is the additional metamagic picks comes too late. If the sorcerer gets another metamagic pick at 7 it is mostly fine. Maybe some kind of short rest recovery that comes baked into the class too like every other class does. Even if it is just sorcery points equal to 1/3 of class levels once per day.

Ogre Mage

2016-12-30, 02:38 AM

Hakon

2016-12-30, 03:14 AM

I have played the 5E Favored Soul and it is my favorite (sub)class in the entire game. The Shadow Sorcerer looks great and I would love to play one.

But I must admit I'm not that jazzed about the Dragon and Storm Sorcerers and I am repelled by the Wild Sorcerer and would never play one -- it is too random for my taste. And those are the three which are legal in official play.

Because of this, my sorcerer characters have been confined to home games. I have not played one in AL play.

i have some extra versions from the dm guild website, and i would love to try an elemental sorcerer.
the level 6 ability is the same at the dragon blood line, however the first level ability is immunity to your chosen damage
and a s a bonus action you can convert any spell damage to your damage type.

suddenly a lightning bolt can become a searing fire line
or a fire blast can be a storm tempest or a sonic boom of force like c4

Hakon

2016-12-30, 03:18 AM

i have some extra versions from the dm guild website, and i would love to try an elemental sorcerer.
the level 6 ability is the same at the dragon blood line, however the first level ability is immunity to your chosen damage
and a s a bonus action you can convert any spell damage to your damage type.

suddenly a lightning bolt can become a searing fire line
or a fire blast can be a storm tempest or a sonic boom of force like c4

9th level you basically get the elemental mastery feat
14th gives you an extra ability after you cast a 5th level or higher spell
18th you can assume the form of a true elemental

well worth the read, its made by Alan Venic its call the tome of the sorcerer

djreynolds

2016-12-30, 04:18 AM

Hakon

2016-12-30, 05:02 AM

I find as a huge wizard fan.... I still use the same spells... I swear. I am that predictable.

Can you twin disintegrate? Than yes they are awesome. Just have a 13 in intelligence and snag ritual caster.

or take 3 levels in warlock pact of the tome, which also opens access to shillelagh for a charisma melee attack

Zalabim

2016-12-30, 09:18 AM

I'm amazed that people think of the sorc as a pure blaster. Just casting some Twinned Banishment and Quickened Wall of Force can turn an entire encounter around. Only those with no creativity at all will make their sorcs do nothing but cast one kind of elemental spell. The main problem is getting more meta options too late.
Slightly alluded to later, but Wall of Force isn't on the Sorcerer spell list.

I think what Sorcerers could really use is an extra spell slot for first through fifth levels. In 3e, they knew less spells than other casters, but could cast them far more often. That was their shtick, more spell slots (and not preparing spells, but still...)

Well, per day... an important distinction sometimes; especially if variants start messing with rest times. They can also get 6th level slots when sorcerers can only get 5th, and get them back 'for free' instead of spending resources usually geared towards class-defining abilities. In any case, I still say its existence undercuts the 'sorcery points turn into more spell slots' hearkening back to sorcerer's 3.X superiority in this domain
Grouping these two together because, back in 3e, Sorcerers weren't kings for spell slots in the grand scale. They got more low level spell slots, but for the highest level or two of spell slots they got the same amount as specialist wizards, at best. 5E references that with all wizards being specialists and sorcerers learning more cantrips, I suppose.

*looks at username* yup, checks out :smallbiggrin:

same for sorcs, However, sorcerers can get a bit more mileage out of their spells, due to metamagic.
The metaphor I'd use for sorcerer metamagic is more MPH out of the turns, better torque maybe, since I don't know cars that well, but they really have a similar fuel capacity to wizards. The difference is the wizard keeps some of that extra fuel in a canister in the trunk and has a lot of little accessories that can be run off the battery. The sorcerer puts all their fuel into a bigger gas tank and has a sturdier chassis, but you really have to drive carefully if you want to get the same gas mileage as the wizard.

TheUser

2016-12-30, 09:35 AM

I have played the 5E Favored Soul and it is my favorite (sub)class in the entire game. The Shadow Sorcerer looks great and I would love to play one.

But I must admit I'm not that jazzed about the Dragon and Storm Sorcerers and I am repelled by the Wild Sorcerer and would never play one -- it is too random for my taste. And those are the three which are legal in official play.

Because of this, my sorcerer characters have been confined to home games. I have not played one in AL play.

Dragon is very nice. It's best to just mostly ignore the level 6 feature (choose fire and only tailor 2-3 spells around it e.g. firebolt, fireball and wall of fire), the big features are at 1 and 14. The extra AC at 1 frees up a spell and a few spell slots early (anything that mimics or replaces a spell is worth so much more later when you only get 1 spell/2 levels) and a an extra 1 hp/level is very worthwhile. If you ever play a level 14 dragon sorcerer you'll never play anything else..

My current level 10 Dragon Sorcerer just picked up quicken spell and will probably become a god at level 11 (SUNBEAM BITCHES).

EDIT: I understand why you love favored soul though, that many free spell is pretty OP hence why it's not allowed

Gignere

2016-12-30, 09:45 AM

Rhedyn

2016-12-30, 09:58 AM

My level 6 sorc likes that.

8d6+4+4d10+8 = 62 damage into the encounter. At level 6

TheUser

2016-12-30, 10:03 AM

You can currently quicken fireball followed by twin (assuming you picked twin) firebolt which is pretty godly already. All with +charisma to damage.

Sadly no. I took subtle/empower. Twin is a huge spell point hog at later levels and subtle is too strong to give up for my tastes. Empower because my team needed an AoE blaster and being able to amp up wall of fire or fireball has been invaluable (1 empower has given me more than 20 extra re-roll damage on a fireball that hit 5 enemies ergo >100 extra damage) I've been using Quicken for things like Dominate Person so far: take full control of enemy casters to cast certain spells + getting their reaction (meaning their counter spell), followed by my own spell with a bonus action. It can be really nice to be able to speak and talk and try and trick people with direct control of another character too.

SharkForce

2016-12-30, 11:17 AM

Dragon is very nice. It's best to just mostly ignore the level 6 feature (choose fire and only tailor 2-3 spells around it e.g. firebolt, fireball and wall of fire), the big features are at 1 and 14. The extra AC at 1 frees up a spell and a few spell slots early (anything that mimics or replaces a spell is worth so much more later when you only get 1 spell/2 levels) and a an extra 1 hp/level is very worthwhile. If you ever play a level 14 dragon sorcerer you'll never play anything else..

My current level 10 Dragon Sorcerer just picked up quicken spell and will probably become a god at level 11 (SUNBEAM BITCHES).

EDIT: I understand why you love favored soul though, that many free spell is pretty OP hence why it's not allowed

favoured souls get medium armour proficiency and shield proficiency. mage armour is pretty bad in comparison. with mage armour, you need 20 dex to get the most out of it... with medium armour, you need 14. which means you will either have way better AC, or you'll be able to have way better constitution. and then shields... shields are a tough choice when you're choosing between a long sword and a greatsword, or being able to quickly switch to a bow. for a sorcerer, though, it's not even close because you just need one free hand and a spell component pouch to use all of your "weapons" (by which i actually mean spells) that matter.

JAL_1138

2016-12-30, 11:35 AM

'Gish' sounds better to you? No personal offense intended, but to my ear that's the sound you'd get if you dropped a plastic bag full of slush. I kinda like 'zerth' phonically.

Wouldn't be able to use the term, myself, because I can only think of Planescape: Torment when I hear it.

"Gish" isn't particularly great either. But not as bad. I can't quite articulate why "zerth" looks and sounds off to me, other than it just being an idiosyncrasy of mine. Perhaps it seems to be trying too hard to seem exotic and alien, so while it still sort of works when specific to Githzerai, it seems to fall a little flat when used to describe something that isn't so exotic or alien. It also doesn't seem to flow as well in a phrase or sentence, e.g. "building a zerth," and particularly if used with the "-y" suffix. "A zerthy character" doesn't have the same ring to it.

However, it could simply be that I've seen "gish" enough it's stopped bugging me particularly.

I do think there's some merit to the idea of splitting the terminology so people know whether you mean something more like a swordmage or more like a fight-y standard spellcaster, even if it means I can't tell the "dagnabbed whippersnappers" using the term differently nowadays to "git off my lawn" like I want to. :smalltongue:

Tanarii

2016-12-30, 11:52 AM

I do think there's some merit to the idea of splitting the terminology so people know whether you mean something more like a swordmage or more like a fight-y standard spellcaster, even if it means I can't tell the "dagnabbed whippersnappers" using the term differently nowadays to "git off my lawn" like I want to. :smalltongue:
As I noted, it's the ones using it to mean fighter-y standard spellcaster that are really dagnabbed whippersnappers. A self-buffing / utility caster actually was, at least IMX, the standard for AD&D 1e Fighter/Magic-Users. While you could in theory cast offensive magics, it was rare for various reasons, not the least of which was casting in melee was a great way to lose your spell while being cast.

In other words it may not have been a buffer/utility caster in theory, but in practice it typically was.

maxwell_wolfen

2016-12-30, 12:03 PM

those who say that sorcerer is underpowered, probably havent seen anyone in 10+ levels, throwing fireballs and such empowered, twinned, or quickened.
it takes time to gather sorcery points enough to pay for metamagic but in the end it just rocks. and it requires much more tactics and thought than the others. The ways you can influence a battle due to metamagic are numerous.

Naanomi

2016-12-30, 04:05 PM

I have a pretty self-limited spell list on my sorcerer, but I never feel I don't have something to do... but the wizard in the party can duplicate most of my schtick without much problem and still have ritual casting and portent to use. I suspect I would function just fine as the only arcane caster in the party, it is only by direct comparison things don't seem to line up.
Mountain Dwarf/ Wild Magic Sorcerer / Customized - 'Pirate'
10/14/18/8/10/20
Future ASI: Warcaster (16), +2 Constitution (19)
Insight, Intimidation, Perception, Acrobatics; Brewer's Tools; Dwarf, Common, Undercommon, Deepspeech

Metamagic: Subtle Spell, Twinned Spell, Empowered Spell, Heightened Spell (17)

Spell List:
-Firebolt, Mage Hand, Shocking Grasp, Frostbite, Mending, Prestidigitation
-Magic Missile, Shield, Detect Magic
-Crown of Madness (13), Misty Step, Mirror Image
-Counterspell, Dispel Magic
-Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility
-Animate Objects, Dimension Door
-Arcane Gate
-Prismatic Spray (13), Teleport (13)
-Dominate Monster (15)
-Wish (17)

Hawkstar

2016-12-31, 10:14 AM

those who say that sorcerer is underpowered, probably havent seen anyone in 10+ levelsSorry, but most tables don't even make it to 10. How do they function at levels that actually matter (3-9)?

Tanarii

2016-12-31, 10:30 AM

Socratov

2016-12-31, 10:53 AM

Sorry, but most tables don't even make it to 10. How do they function at levels that actually matter (3-9)?

At a single class no feat table, my sorc players seem happy with their effectiveness both in and out of combat.

I mean, that's kind of a hard question to answer, because there's white room analysis vs actual play experience, and the latter is really hard to quantify.

In my own experience (between 3 and 5) a sorcerer is like a grenade: it can go bang really well, better then anyone because once you spend those sorcerypoints, well... ****. Will. Blow. Up.

If you went nova and there is not a smouldering crater where the object of your extreme prejudice was standing just moments ago, you haven't really tried.

Immensely fun to play! I have had a blast (sometimes quite literally) with my Wild Magic sorcerer because one you get past the whole nervous *pleaseohpleasedontrolla31or32onthewildmagicsurget able* the class is a hoot! I spend a month immune to alcohol and abusing it like mad! Once you get past the weirdly written language of Tides of Chaos, you will understand the incredible fun ability it is. The class is not without its flaws, and boy don't we all know that it needs more sorcery points in a given day and oh man does it need some more spells known. But it is fun to play and a well made sorcerer has a couple of tricks up its sleeve to give a wizard a run for its money.

jaappleton

2016-12-31, 11:05 AM

Sorry, but most tables don't even make it to 10. How do they function at levels that actually matter (3-9)?

I got to lv9 once. The things my Wizard did with spells baffled people.

Using Wall of Force to create an inverted dome so we could slide down the side of a mountain... Good times.

We fell out and nearly died.

.......what? I didn't have Fly in my spellbook that day.

Drackolus

2016-12-31, 11:35 AM

I've played wizards and sorcerers and I found them to be equally good. I can't help but disagree with the assessment that having that many less spells is a big deal. Having more spells is nice, but when you think about it, you get diminishing returns on spells known, since you can really only pick less useful spells as you go down. If spells known was that big of a factor, clerics and land druids would be considered better, no? They have far more spells at low level (at level 5, clerics will have around 15 to the wizard's 9). As for ritual casting, the only ones that do much are detect magic, find familiar, or phantom steed. Not a huge list, and two of those die in one hit from anything.
I think a big part of the mis-assessment is how undersold metamagic and increased sorcery points is. I recognize I'm in the minority, but I feel that a draconic sorcerer is about equal to an evocation wizard at high levels and actually better before 14. Most people seem to forget that wizards actually get those equivalent abilities later than the sorcerer. People also seem to undersell empowered spell. Compare a level 6 draconic sorcerer's fireball to a level 6 evocation wizard and the sorcerer puts out around 50% more damage. Unfortunately, you have to choose two of quickened, empowered, and twinned. If you don't have two targets for haste, it becomes a no-brainer. And that's not counting the fact that draconic sorcerers are tougher, and don't need mage armor (you can think of that as one less spell needing to be known and an extra 1st level slot.)
And before people bring up multiclassing, the conversion rate is terrible. You, ideally, never want to use it. Not having the increase in sorcery points either garrotes your metamagic or spells used.
Also, minor point though it is, cantrips are powerful, if used cleverly. Having more is great. I take magic initiate on almost every character and I'm yet to regret it.

Coffee_Dragon

2016-12-31, 11:49 AM

Using Wall of Force to create an inverted dome so we could slide down the side of a mountain... Good times.

But it must be annoying when you cast Wall of Force to actually block someone off and they just knock it over or shove it aside.

Tanarii

2016-12-31, 11:53 AM

As for ritual casting, the only ones that do much are detect magic, find familiar, or phantom steed. Not a huge list, and two of those die in one hit from anything.since we're clearly talking about Wizard rituals that sorcerers can't choose but also wouldn't be able to ritual cast anyway, here's the list of awesomely useful rituals Wizards can cast from their spellbooks if they know them:
Alarm
Comprehend Languages*
Detect Magic*
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Water Breathing*
Contact Other Plane
Rare' Telepathic Bond

*Sorc can choose these as spells known, but not ritual cast them

I left out ones that are far more niche but still insanely useful when they matter, like Illusionary Script & Magic Mouth, or campaign-rule dependent Tenser's Floating Disk & Identify.

Also, I hadn't previously realized that Sorcs can choose Water Walk as a spell known, but wizards can't learn it at all.

Naanomi

2016-12-31, 11:54 AM

Telling that 80%+ of the cited advantages of a sorcerer are explicitly dragon sorcerer abilities...

Tanarii

2016-12-31, 12:12 PM

Telling that 80%+ of the cited advantages of a sorcerer are explicitly dragon sorcerer abilities...
Tides of Chaos is pretty amazing if it's just left as a player choice if they want to use it. ie automatic trigger of Wild Surge on casting a Sorc spell of level 1 plus if Tides was used prior.

But that's prett DM dependent.

maxwell_wolfen

2016-12-31, 12:16 PM

Sorry, but most tables don't even make it to 10. How do they function at levels that actually matter (3-9)?

your joking right?

who told you that most tables dont make it to 10? maybe to you. In our campaign we begin at 5 and we are now at 13 level. i just entered as a 13th level character. That most tables dont make it to 10 is not a fact. I would have agreed if you'd said about 20level..

Hawkstar

2016-12-31, 12:21 PM

who told you that most tables dont make it to 10? Extensive research by WotC.

jaappleton

2016-12-31, 12:24 PM

Extensive research by WotC.

Yes, the surveys they conducted. I recall that as well. Very little campaigns make it to 20, most end around 10 or 11, some make it to 14-17.

Most actual play takes place from 3-9.

Rhedyn

2016-12-31, 12:27 PM

Telling that 80%+ of the cited advantages of a sorcerer are explicitly dragon sorcerer abilities...
That's because dragon is the good one, while wild is silly and anything else is non-core.

Tanarii

2016-12-31, 12:28 PM

your joking right?

who told you that most tables dont make it to 10? maybe to you. In our campaign we begin at 5 and we are now at 13 level. i just entered as a 13th level character. That most tables dont make it to 10 is not a fact. I would have agreed if you'd said about 20level..

Extensive research by WotC.
There is a difference between 'most'/'the majority of' and 'the largest amount of play happens in levels 5-10 range'.

Has WoTC/Mearls ever been specific beyond the latter?

I agree with the general sentiment that WotC has been pretty clear that their research indicates the latter is true, which is why the XP tables are structured the way they are. Catapult you to 5, about 50% more adventuring days XP/level from 5-10, then move briskly to 17, then IIRC slow down a tad again.

Zalabim

2017-01-01, 04:06 AM

There is a difference between 'most'/'the majority of' and 'the largest amount of play happens in levels 5-10 range'.

Has WoTC/Mearls ever been specific beyond the latter?

I agree with the general sentiment that WotC has been pretty clear that their research indicates the latter is true, which is why the XP tables are structured the way they are. Catapult you to 5, about 50% more adventuring days XP/level from 5-10, then move briskly to 17, then IIRC slow down a tad again.

Wasn't that research about prior editions/playtest play anyway? I know it's not a poll they've made claims about since the 5E XP tables were released, since that's the reason for the odd hills and valleys in the level advancement table we currently have.

Tanarii

2017-01-01, 07:00 AM

Wasn't that research about prior editions/playtest play anyway? I know it's not a poll they've made claims about since the 5E XP tables were released, since that's the reason for the odd hills and valleys in the level advancement table we currently have.
Fair point. I don't think I've seen anything specific to post-5e release. Maybe someone else?

Socratov

2017-01-01, 07:56 AM

That's because dragon is the good one, while wild is silly and anything else is non-core.

That's not entirely true: it's just that a dragon sorc is more dependable, especially in combat situations. Especially with the free mage armour and the stat to spelldamage it seems as if it's stronger, but please don't underestimate the real power of spells.

Wild magic sorcerers have Tides of Chaos and Bend luck: both extremely powerful gamechanging abilities: the first grants advantage when you need it, the other enforces disadvantage on an enemy. Please note that heighten costs 3 points whereas bend luck requires 2 sorcery points. So if you want to toss out spells that stick and wreck encounters wild magic is the superior choice. At later levels dragon gets wings (very strong!), but the wild magic sorc gets spell bombardment: which allows the sorc (especially with empower) to rampage on like mad!

The dragon sorc will on average be stronger, but once the wild magic sorc gets going, well, that's when he shines.

wild sorc has a higher potential, but will reach it fewer times, in addition to a (dis)advantage manipulation, while the dragon sorc is a lot more dependable.

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-01, 08:10 AM

Naanomi

2017-01-01, 11:05 AM

Wild magic sorcerers have Tides of Chaos and Bend luck: both extremely powerful gamechanging abilities: the first grants advantage when you need it, the other enforces disadvantage on an enemy. Please note that heighten costs 3 points whereas bend luck requires 2 sorcery points. So if you want to toss out spells that stick and wreck encounters wild magic is the superior choice. At later levels dragon gets wings (very strong!), but the wild magic sorc gets spell bombardment: which allows the sorc (especially with empower) to rampage on like mad!
Tides of Chaos is generally advantage on one save per long rest (help action from a familiar gives a wizard advantage on ony skill or attack roll they want in 90% of situations)

Bombardment is a disaster... adding 1d12 damage at most to a spell (and generally adding much less, depending on what attack magic you tend to use); and only once per turn (when one of the boons of the sorcerer is casting multiple spells a round)... not even usuable once per round to play off of warcaster. Essentially never as good Elemental Affinity, at higher level to rub it in.

Bend Luck is great, actually better than disadvantage... the numerical reduction is rare in this system and actually stacks with the disadvantage of heighten (comprable or sometimes superior in forcing a failed save to portent). If Wild Sorcerer had any advantage it is here, and my own tries to focus on saves when possible with my own

Rhedyn

2017-01-01, 11:53 AM

Power-wise, wild sorcerer is fine, but it is also silly and hands a lot of your class features to the DM's discretion.

Pre-pathfinder sorcerers were predominantly dragon blooded, it makes sense that dragon would be the more sane approach to a class that is clearly very niche.

Citan

2017-01-01, 03:04 PM

In my opinion,
people that tell that "Sorcerer is weak" and similar things just never tried playing one... Or even theorycrafting one.

Because people tend to forget all too much the swinginess of D&d 5e which implies that more than a few spells you were so proud of will actually do little good in your encounter, either because enemy made the save, or you rolled bad on damage, or you messed so much with the battlefield that both friends and foes are annoyed, or because you just happened to face another caster with Counterspell.

Sorcerer absolutely CRUSHES any and every other caster in terms of resource and action economy when you actually play for those reasons.

The true drawback though is that it needs indeed much more anticipation in building and leveling if you want to be efficient in any occasion (in particular, keeping a tight relationship between choice of Metamagic and choice of spells).
Even the small number of spell known can be easily coped with as soon as multiclassing is allowed, but I'm not bothered by it personnally (same as Warlock basically).

My only real gripe is the learning of Metamagics. I always houserule that you learn one more Metamagic each step. But I would really like for it to become an official fix... Or something like being able to change your Metamagic known by following a lengthy ritual.
Because while I think Sorcerer is always fine as is, I agree that more choice of Metamagic makes fun grow exponentially.

Naanomi

2017-01-01, 03:18 PM

My only real gripe is the learning of Metamagics. I always houserule that you learn one more Metamagic each step. But I would really like for it to become an official fix... Or something like being able to change your Metamagic known by following a lengthy ritual.
Because while I think Sorcerer is always fine as is, I agree that more choice of Metamagic makes fun grow exponentially.
While it wouldn't fix everything, ending up with all the Metamagic by level 20 would be a great adjustment to the Sorcerer in terms of versatility. I have several metamagic abilities that really only effect 1-2 of my spells (empower, heighten); whereas some that would have more general uses don't have the 'oomph' I wanted so I avoided them (distant, extend)

((and I have played a Sorcerer, currently level 12))

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-01, 03:34 PM

Sorcerer absolutely CRUSHES any and every other caster in terms of resource and action economy when you actually play for those reasons.

Action economy, sure (for as long as your spell points last, anyway).

But by what possible measure do sorcerers have the best resource economy? Their entire shtick is using two daily resources at once.

Hawkstar

2017-01-01, 03:49 PM

Sorcerers totally need a "Weave-Surfer" subclass.

Potato_Priest

2017-01-01, 03:53 PM

Action economy, sure (for as long as your spell points last, anyway).

But by what possible measure do sorcerers have the best resource economy? Their entire shtick is using two daily resources at once.

This is probably a suboptimal build, but when I played a level 9 sorcerer, I just butchered my low level slots for higher ones all the time. You effectively have more spell slots of your highest level than a wizard, and that's a significant advantage.

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-01, 05:13 PM

This is probably a suboptimal build, but when I played a level 9 sorcerer, I just butchered my low level slots for higher ones all the time. You effectively have more spell slots of your highest level than a wizard, and that's a significant advantage.

But isn't that just a quantity vs quality thing? The sorcerer is giving up a lot of low level slots for a few higher level ones.

Gignere

2017-01-01, 05:15 PM

But isn't that just a quantity vs quality thing? The sorcerer is giving up a lot of low level slots for a few higher level ones.

Just being able to cast Animate objects a few more times a day, would be gamebreaking at level 9.

Citan

2017-01-01, 05:24 PM

That's because dragon is the good one, while wild is silly and anything else is non-core.
Wut?

That's not entirely true: it's just that a dragon sorc is more dependable, especially in combat situations. Especially with the free mage armour and the stat to spelldamage it seems as if it's stronger, but please don't underestimate the real power of spells.

Wild magic sorcerers have Tides of Chaos and Bend luck: both extremely powerful gamechanging abilities: the first grants advantage when you need it, the other enforces disadvantage on an enemy. Please note that heighten costs 3 points whereas bend luck requires 2 sorcery points. So if you want to toss out spells that stick and wreck encounters wild magic is the superior choice. At later levels dragon gets wings (very strong!), but the wild magic sorc gets spell bombardment: which allows the sorc (especially with empower) to rampage on like mad!

The dragon sorc will on average be stronger, but once the wild magic sorc gets going, well, that's when he shines.

wild sorc has a higher potential, but will reach it fewer times, in addition to a (dis)advantage manipulation, while the dragon sorc is a lot more dependable.
THAT. :)

Tides of Chaos is generally advantage on one save per long rest (help action from a familiar gives a wizard advantage on ony skill or attack roll they want in 90% of situations)

Bombardment is a disaster... adding 1d12 damage at most to a spell (and generally adding much less, depending on what attack magic you tend to use); and only once per turn (when one of the boons of the sorcerer is casting multiple spells a round)... not even usuable once per round to play off of warcaster. Essentially never as good Elemental Affinity, at higher level to rub it in.

Bend Luck is great, actually better than disadvantage... the numerical reduction is rare in this system and actually stacks with the disadvantage of heighten (comprable or sometimes superior in forcing a failed save to portent). If Wild Sorcerer had any advantage it is here, and my own tries to focus on saves when possible with my own
Yeah, sure, if your DM does not want to let you play your strengths, in spite of you letting him know beforehand you will play a Wild Magic, it will be dull... Same as a DM that would railroad an underground campaign with a Ranger born in wild forests...
The problem lies within the human relationship or lack of communication, not in the class feature.
A topic somewhere on this forum already took face first the question of "is Wild Magic actually dangerous", and concluded on the fact that the probability of something really bad happening was fairly low. Usually, the worst is "useless", up to "awesome" when you are lucky.

And Bombardment... Sure, if you are actually *strange* enough to use it mainly on single-target spells, it will be lackluster (although not technically worse than Cleric's +1d8 on melee attack, and nobody cries over it), but when it's another d6 or d8 on your Fireball, Cone of Cold or Chain Lightning that affects 3+ targets, it means something like 4 more damage on average per target, so a boost that can amount to one or several dozen.
You are certainly free to discount that as "disastrous"... But then I wonder what kind of class feature damage boost applying on a spell could actually make you happy...:smallbiggrin:

Action economy, sure (for as long as your spell points last, anyway).

But by what possible measure do sorcerers have the best resource economy? Their entire shtick is using two daily resources at once.
Not necessarily. As illustrated above by others, it really depends on your choices (archetype, metamagics, spells). Wild Magic Sorcerer that like to use debuffs spells can really spare some resources if the DM plays his part, or be the nastiest of all casters if he combines feature with Heightened.

And between a Sorcerer that, for example, blows 3 Sorcerer points (like a 3rd level slot) and one Hold Monster (Heightened), and a Wizard that would have to actually blow two 5th level slots on Hold Monster because the first roll was above the DC in both cases, the economy is clear as crystal: lesser magical resources, and one turn less. Which can mean the world.

Naanomi

2017-01-01, 05:50 PM

Yeah, sure, if your DM does not want to let you play your strengths, in spite of you letting him know beforehand you will play a Wild Magic, it will be dull.
Even if a GM lets you use it more often (mine does, but I cannot assume it to be the case), the help action still covers most of this ability except for the advantage on saves... which is great, when it comes up (I often find myself using it on concentration) but not as versatile as it may first appear

And Bombardment... Sure, if you are actually *strange* enough to use it mainly on single-target spells, it will be lackluster (although not technically worse than Cleric's +1d8 on melee attack, and nobody cries over it), but when it's another d6 or d8 on your Fireball, Cone of Cold or Chain Lightning that affects 3+ targets, it means something like 4 more damage on average per target, so a boost that can amount to one or several dozen.
You are certainly free to discount that as "disastrous"... But then I wonder what kind of class feature damage boost applying on a spell could actually make you happy...
My sorcerer doesn't have any real AoE spells so it doesn't apply much but... it isn't assured like the Cleric's +1d8 (technically worse; and an ability no one is cheering about either), but more importantly it pales in comparison both in reliability and applicability next to the boost that the dragon sorcerer was sporting 12 levels earlier

Maybe when I get the ability at level 18 I will be more impressed, but mathematically it doesn't look like it will have been worth waiting for

SharkForce

2017-01-01, 06:27 PM

Just being able to cast Animate objects a few more times a day, would be gamebreaking at level 9.

eh, not that great when it comes at the cost of not being able to cast anything else. level 1 spells kinda drop off for the most part, but even starting at level 2 something as simple as web or suggestion can change an encounter dramatically. when you get to level 3 and you're talking about stinking cloud and hypnotic pattern, you're giving up quite a lot for that animate objects spell. and you have to do it well in advance, because converting spells to SP and SP to spells is a bonus action for each step; changing 6 low level spell slots into a single higher level spell slot takes 7 bonus actions (and therefore 7 rounds). not exactly something you can just do on the spot.

(and again, that means you're leaving yourself with no lower level slots; no web, no enlarge, no enhance ability, no suggestion, no shield, etc).

Gignere

2017-01-01, 06:37 PM

eh, not that great when it comes at the cost of not being able to cast anything else. level 1 spells kinda drop off for the most part, but even starting at level 2 something as simple as web or suggestion can change an encounter dramatically. when you get to level 3 and you're talking about stinking cloud and hypnotic pattern, you're giving up quite a lot for that animate objects spell. and you have to do it well in advance, because converting spells to SP and SP to spells is a bonus action for each step; changing 6 low level spell slots into a single higher level spell slot takes 7 bonus actions (and therefore 7 rounds). not exactly something you can just do on the spot.

(and again, that means you're leaving yourself with no lower level slots; no web, no enlarge, no enhance ability, no suggestion, no shield, etc).

Chances are you do it between combats 6 rounds is only 36 seconds the time it takes to traverse a dungeon room carefully. Anyway if a wizard blows both his level 5 slots and needs a third one before he gets a short rest he is SoL, whereas the sorcerer can still get back a 5th level slot. Generally speaking the 5th level spells are more powerful than lower level spells and this is just one thin a sorcerer can do not that this is the strategy to always use. However at level 9 animate objects is probably one of the best spells to cast in a combat heavy game.

Also if a lower level spell happens to be more effective nothing stops you from using higher level spell slots to cast them.

ApplePen

2017-01-01, 06:48 PM

I honestly find the best use of the +1d8 from Cleric to be with Spiritual Weapon. You get 1d8 force+1d8 Radiant+WIS as a bonus action every round. That's pretty nice for bonus action damage all combat off a 2nd lv slot.

Bombardment would technically be identical if used on Spiritual Weapon, but has the opportunity to work with AoE damage. So bombardment is strictly superior to the cleric's D8.

Once the cleric gets 3d8, though, it gets more comparable.

Naanomi

2017-01-01, 06:52 PM

Bombardment would technically be identical if used on Spiritual Weapon, but has the opportunity to work with AoE damage. So bombardment is strictly superior to the cleric's D8.
Bombardment has a chance of not happening at all, and can only activate once per Turn... I have a hard time seeing that as strictly superior

ApplePen

2017-01-01, 07:22 PM

Bombardment has a chance of not happening at all, and can only activate once per Turn... I have a hard time seeing that as strictly superior

Well so does the cleric D8, if you don't hit AC.

TheUser

2017-01-01, 07:45 PM

That's not entirely true: it's just that a dragon sorc is more dependable, especially in combat situations. Especially with the free mage armour and the stat to spelldamage it seems as if it's stronger, but please don't underestimate the real power of spells.

Wild magic sorcerers have Tides of Chaos and Bend luck: both extremely powerful gamechanging abilities: the first grants advantage when you need it, the other enforces disadvantage on an enemy. Please note that heighten costs 3 points whereas bend luck requires 2 sorcery points. So if you want to toss out spells that stick and wreck encounters wild magic is the superior choice. At later levels dragon gets wings (very strong!), but the wild magic sorc gets spell bombardment: which allows the sorc (especially with empower) to rampage on like mad!

The dragon sorc will on average be stronger, but once the wild magic sorc gets going, well, that's when he shines.

wild sorc has a higher potential, but will reach it fewer times, in addition to a (dis)advantage manipulation, while the dragon sorc is a lot more dependable.

Playing dragon is pretty much defacto superior unless you want the shenanigans of wild mage surges.

While I don't disagree that having bend luck is probably one of the most versatile and great use of spell points it gobbles up your reaction and is so useful and versatile that you'll likely be burning through spell slots just to keep up with all the spell points you'll be using.

The Dragon Sorcerer is safer. That 1 hp/level can be anywhere from 10-20% more hp and makes you feel less like a pinnata. If you ever get attacked with the 13AC you'd have as a wild mage and the 1 less hp/level every time any mob or PC puts there attention on you it's a problem. Not dying is the name of the game and wild mages, while hilarious and fun, can also hurt themselves with wild surges.

Getting free mage armor not only frees up the slot(s) it frees up the spell known which is a much bigger deal at higher levels. But once you get flight, the point is not that you no longer need fly/feather fall it's that you don't have to use up your precious concentration in order to fly.

If you ever get the opportunity to play a level 14+ character I urge you to try Dragon Sorcerer just so you can see how strong it is. Sure other mages can fly, and faster too, but it costs them their concentration! You see a mage flying and BAM dispel magic and counterspell the featherfall.

Addaran

2017-01-01, 07:49 PM

SharkForce

2017-01-01, 07:51 PM

Chances are you do it between combats 6 rounds is only 36 seconds the time it takes to traverse a dungeon room carefully. Anyway if a wizard blows both his level 5 slots and needs a third one before he gets a short rest he is SoL, whereas the sorcerer can still get back a 5th level slot. Generally speaking the 5th level spells are more powerful than lower level spells and this is just one thin a sorcerer can do not that this is the strategy to always use. However at level 9 animate objects is probably one of the best spells to cast in a combat heavy game.

Also if a lower level spell happens to be more effective nothing stops you from using higher level spell slots to cast them.

sure.

but that sorcerer you're describing has to make the decision long before it comes time to use the slot, which means that the sorcerer is at *least* as likely to get into a situation where a lower level slot would be extremely useful and is not available, and instead a higher level slot (which costs multiple lower level spell slots) must be used instead.

there are situations where it's good, but you don't have a surefire method of knowing if those situations are at hand until well after you've had to make the decision on whether it's a good idea or not.

animate objects does provide pretty good damage over time. but you don't always need damage, and even when you do, you don't necessarily need damage over time. when you're trying to argue superior use of resources, it doesn't make sense to ignore that the superior use is only superior some of the time, carries a large cost in other resources, and you don't know if it's a good use let alone superior until long after the decision has been made.

Naanomi

2017-01-01, 08:10 PM

Well so does the cleric D8, if you don't hit AC.
Ok... Bombardment has a non-trivial chance to not happen even if you hit (which of course, most of your spells need to hit in some capacity)

I don't want to sound like I don't like Wild Sorcerer, I play one for a reason... I played a Wild Mage in 2e for similar reasons... but it definitely feels like you *give up* power to choose the flavorful option, not even breaking even. In the broader context of the thread, nearly every great advantage cited to defend 'sorcerer's bad rap' is a Dragon Sorcerer ability, which from a larger design perspective probably isn't good; especially not when the obvious comparisons across similar classes already looks bleak on the surface

SharkForce

2017-01-01, 09:21 PM

Ok... Bombardment has a non-trivial chance to not happen even if you hit (which of course, most of your spells need to hit in some capacity)

I don't want to sound like I don't like Wild Sorcerer, I play one for a reason... I played a Wild Mage in 2e for similar reasons... but it definitely feels like you *give up* power to choose the flavorful option, not even breaking even. In the broader context of the thread, nearly every great advantage cited to defend 'sorcerer's bad rap' is a Dragon Sorcerer ability, which from a larger design perspective probably isn't good; especially not when the obvious comparisons across similar classes already looks bleak on the surface

dunno that i'd agree wild sorcerer is worse off (apart from that stinker of a level 18 ability that has no thematic connection and is kinda crappy for the sort of sorcerer you need to build to take advantage of wild sorcerer). just different. if you want to blow things up, be a dragon sorcerer. you won't need most of what wild sorcerer offers, and it gives you some useful passive buffs in terms of blowing things up slightly better, and being a little harder to kill.

wild sorcerer gives access to potentially very frequent use of tides of chaos (depending on DM, it's either an amazing ability or a decent one). bend luck is an exceptionally potent ability when used with crowd control effects rather than nukes. it can also be a pretty nice support ability, of course. with a wild sorcerer, you're not as good at blowing things up, but you *are* better at locking things down.

of course, it would be helpful if you could actually afford to pack a bigger selection of ways to lock enemies down instead of being stuck with a very small list of spells known. but that's not a problem with wild sorcerer in particular, it's a problem with sorcerer in general.

Naanomi

2017-01-01, 10:03 PM

(apart from that stinker of a level 18 ability that has no thematic connection and is kinda crappy for the sort of sorcerer you need to build to take advantage of wild sorcerer)
If I had to guess, I would think the ability started out in development as much more explosive... perhaps all dice having the potential for a single extra roll, or one die being 'infinitely exploding' like old 2e firearms were... but it got watered down somewhere in the process into its current state. If the ability were really potentially (if rarely) massive, it would fit the wild-magic unpredictability better

ApplePen

2017-01-01, 10:10 PM

Wild surges should be more controllable as you level, with bigger results.

Pex

2017-01-01, 10:17 PM

With regard to dragon sorcerers, their bonuses are powerful but (IMO) also quite dull. Not least because most of them are entirely passive. The only interesting one isn't gained until Lv14.

e.g. armour is useful, but it doesn't give you any more options. Elemental damage bonuses are useful but, again, passive. What's more, especially with the sorcerer's limited spell slots, they tend to tie you to blasting with a single element.

Your opinion, accepted.

My opinion: Something being passive is not inherently a bad thing. As for when my elemental damage spells are not optimal to use at a particular time, I just do something else and don't resent it.

Zalabim

2017-01-02, 04:48 AM

Tides of Chaos is generally advantage on one save per long rest (help action from a familiar gives a wizard advantage on ony skill or attack roll they want in 90% of situations)
It works on rolls you can't get help with too, like perception to avoid an ambush, or initiative to get the first action. If you're only getting to use it once per day though, just don't play a wild mage. Half of the reason to be a wild mage is to get wild surges.

Bend Luck is great, actually better than disadvantage... the numerical reduction is rare in this system and actually stacks with the disadvantage of heighten (comprable or sometimes superior in forcing a failed save to portent). If Wild Sorcerer had any advantage it is here, and my own tries to focus on saves when possible with my own
Bend luck is the other half.

Power-wise, wild sorcerer is fine, but it is also silly and hands a lot of your class features to the DM's discretion.

Pre-pathfinder sorcerers were predominantly dragon blooded, it makes sense that dragon would be the more sane approach to a class that is clearly very niche.
"I cast spells because one of my (distant) ancestors was a dragon/magical" is perhaps the worst conceived fluff for sorcerers. It's too passive and it doesn't answer any questions about the character.

Bombardment is a disaster... adding 1d12 damage at most to a spell (and generally adding much less, depending on what attack magic you tend to use); and only once per turn (when one of the boons of the sorcerer is casting multiple spells a round)... not even usuable once per round to play off of warcaster. Essentially never as good Elemental Affinity, at higher level to rub it in.
Moving this part down here.

My sorcerer doesn't have any real AoE spells so it doesn't apply much but... it isn't assured like the Cleric's +1d8 (technically worse; and an ability no one is cheering about either), but more importantly it pales in comparison both in reliability and applicability next to the boost that the dragon sorcerer was sporting 12 levels earlier

Maybe when I get the ability at level 18 I will be more impressed, but mathematically it doesn't look like it will have been worth waiting for
Mathematically, it gives:

73.7% chance to add 4.5 damage to chain lightning,
65.6% chance to add 4.5 damage to cone of cold,
76.7% chance to add 3.5 damage to fireball,
34.4% chance to add 5.5 damage to insect plague,
and 25% chance to add 2.5 damage per missile to magic missile if you're using the single damage roll interpretation.

The chances are better if you also use Empower. I know that no dragon sorcerer got a damage boost to all these spells. I doubt many sorcerers of any stripe choose to learn all these spells though. It loses reliability and gains the ability to work on any kind of damaging spell.

My sorcerer doesn't have any real AoE spells so it doesn't apply much
Repeated for emphasis because I think this is the state of most wild mage spell lists, though you really should have at least one real AoE spell after level 5, since it's sort of a spellcaster niche.

I honestly find the best use of the +1d8 from Cleric to be with Spiritual Weapon. You get 1d8 force+1d8 Radiant+WIS as a bonus action every round. That's pretty nice for bonus action damage all combat off a 2nd lv slot.
The cleric's divine strike only works on weapon attacks, so it doesn't work with Spiritual Weapon. I know it's in the name, but it makes spell attacks.

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-02, 05:06 AM

My opinion: Something being passive is not inherently a bad thing.

I didn't say it was bad - just rather dull (compared with, say, the shadow sorcerer summoning The Hound of the Baskervilles :smallwink:).

As for when my elemental damage spells are not optimal to use at a particular time, I just do something else and don't resent it.

So, you'd have no issues exploring a volcano lair (full of creatures immune to fire) with fire spells as your only offence?

Spellbreaker26

2017-01-02, 07:00 AM

So, you'd have no issues exploring a volcano lair (full of creatures immune to fire) with fire spells as your only offence?

Firstly, surely a dragon sorcerer would still take at least a few spells not of their element, and could do at least something?

Plus, you can gain resistance to fire using elemental affinity, so you've got an advantage in the volcano as well.

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-02, 07:11 AM

Firstly, surely a dragon sorcerer would still take at least a few spells not of their element, and could do at least something?

Given that sorcerers know barely more than one spell per level, even taking a few non-fire spells would be a massive investment. That sorcerer basically has 2 choices:
- Take those spells instead of fire spells (in which case, I can't imagine he's getting much value from the dragon power).
- Or take those spells as well as fire spells (in which case he'll have virtually no utility spells).

Addaran

2017-01-02, 08:03 AM

"I cast spells because one of my (distant) ancestors was a dragon/magical" is perhaps the worst conceived fluff for sorcerers. It's too passive and it doesn't answer any questions about the character.

That's basically the fluff for Harry Potter, jedi and lots of characters in stories. Just being born with an affinity/potential for magic.
It's great that it doesn't answer any questions about the character, cause you're free to choose whatever you want. Just the class that you pick shouldn't be your background.

Given that sorcerers know barely more than one spell per level, even taking a few non-fire spells would be a massive investment. That sorcerer basically has 2 choices:
- Take those spells instead of fire spells (in which case, I can't imagine he's getting much value from the dragon power).
- Or take those spells as well as fire spells (in which case he'll have virtually no utility spells).

Chromatic Orb! You still get your dragon bonus, it's just one spell and can cover 6 damage types!
Sorcerer also have the biggest number of cantrips, so you can use one to have a different damage type (chill touch is rarely resisted, especially by things that are resistant to fire and there's a nice rider).

Sure it's not like having a single target spell, an aoe and a DoT spell for the damage type, but at least having one spell of another type (or one that have multiples) means you're not totally worthless. And it's a good idea to have when some creatures can render useless 30% of your spell list.

Naanomi

2017-01-02, 08:35 AM

It works on rolls you can't get help with too, like perception to avoid an ambush, or initiative to get the first action
Initiative is a good use, ambush is often passive perception and probably not usable

Mathematically, it gives:

73.7% chance to add 4.5 damage to chain lightning,
65.6% chance to add 4.5 damage to cone of cold,
76.7% chance to add 3.5 damage to fireball,
34.4% chance to add 5.5 damage to insect plague,
and 25% chance to add 2.5 damage per missile to magic missile if you're using the single damage roll interpretation.
And dragon sorcerer had been adding that much or more 100% of the time to whichever of those spells they took (limited options, no sorcerer is taking all those spells) for 12 levels. 12 levels of a better boost is a lot of time, for most campaigns it is all the time

I think this is the state of most wild mage spell lists, though you really should have at least one real AoE spell after level 5, since it's sort of a spellcaster niche.
I prefaced my odd spell list a while ago but my sorcerer doesn't want her Magic, she doesn't have any spells with material components... cuts down my choices in this domain a lot

Spellbreaker26

2017-01-02, 08:52 AM

I prefaced my odd spell list a while ago but my sorcerer doesn't want her Magic, she doesn't have any spells with material components... cuts down my choices in this domain a lot

Ice Knife is an AoE with a material component of a drop of water. Would that count as one she couldn't have? Water's fairly easy to get.

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-02, 09:03 AM

Chromatic Orb! You still get your dragon bonus, it's just one spell and can cover 6 damage types!

Fair point.

Sorcerer also have the biggest number of cantrips, so you can use one to have a different damage type (chill touch is rarely resisted, especially by things that are resistant to fire and there's a nice rider).

'Biggest number of cantrips' seems rather misleading. They get one extra one over other casters. Not exactly Christmas come early. :smallwink:

That's basically the fluff for Harry Potter, jedi and lots of characters in stories. Just being born with an affinity/potential for magic.

That doesn't make it good fluff though. :smalltongue:

HP's magic system in particular feels like about 4 different systems inexpertly mashed together. So, we have 'wizarding' being a genetic trait passed down from parents to children . . . and yet it doesn't actually do anything unless said wizard also obtains a wand (of which there are many types that won't all respond to a given wizard's . . . um . . . wizarding genes) and waves it in the correct way whilst reciting some Faux Latin.

So, at some point in history, there had to be the first wizard (or the first one to recognise himself as such). This individual would first have to be born with the correct genes. Then they would have to decide to construct a special wand for themselves, which is both magically functional and also the correct type for their wizarding genes. And then they would have to wave it about whilst reciting exactly the right Faux Latin to successfully cast a spell.

And people make fun of He-Man . . .

Just to be clear, I'm not saying it can't be done well, just that it often isn't.

Citan

2017-01-02, 09:17 AM

Even if a GM lets you use it more often (mine does, but I cannot assume it to be the case), the help action still covers most of this ability except for the advantage on saves... which is great, when it comes up (I often find myself using it on concentration) but not as versatile as it may first appear

My sorcerer doesn't have any real AoE spells so it doesn't apply much but... it isn't assured like the Cleric's +1d8 (technically worse; and an ability no one is cheering about either), but more importantly it pales in comparison both in reliability and applicability next to the boost that the dragon sorcerer was sporting 12 levels earlier

Maybe when I get the ability at level 18 I will be more impressed, but mathematically it doesn't look like it will have been worth waiting for
Well, I understand you don't find the first ability so impressive if you usually have someone Help you. It's certainly more useful when "alone". But it's also just for the sake of having something usually fun and imprevisible happening thanks to the surges.
Obviously if you don't enjoy that random aspect and focus solely on the feature benefit, it is less interesting (although it should be noted that it works on saving throws. And you cannot Help someone with a saving throw unless I've been wrong all this time XD).

As for Bombardment, it is indeed not as reliable as Cleric. And certainly swingy if used with Chain Lightning. But on a Fireball or Cone of Cold (8 die minimum) the chance of having at least one rolling the highest number is pretty decent. And a Sorcerer which makes AOE his schtick will certainly learn Empowered, which further increases the odds (up to 5 die reroll for a single metamagic point).

So, basically, either you just don't count on it, and it comes as a nice surprise when it happens (which is totally coherent with the whole "randomness" fluff ;)), or you plan on using it regularly and you tailor around it. ;)

While it wouldn't fix everything, ending up with all the Metamagic by level 20 would be a great adjustment to the Sorcerer in terms of versatility. I have several metamagic abilities that really only effect 1-2 of my spells (empower, heighten); whereas some that would have more general uses don't have the 'oomph' I wanted so I avoided them (distant, extend)

((and I have played a Sorcerer, currently level 12))
It would certainly make the capstone much more worthwhile... But how many players actually reach level 20?
And it could feel strange fluff-wise to jump from 4 metamagic to 8 suddenly.
Adding one other Metamagic learned at "PHB steps" or adding steps in-between has the big advantage of giving more tools to play earlier, so it profit more people. ;)

I honestly find the best use of the +1d8 from Cleric to be with Spiritual Weapon. You get 1d8 force+1d8 Radiant+WIS as a bonus action every round. That's pretty nice for bonus action damage all combat off a 2nd lv slot.

Bombardment would technically be identical if used on Spiritual Weapon, but has the opportunity to work with AoE damage. So bombardment is strictly superior to the cleric's D8.

Once the cleric gets 3d8, though, it gets more comparable.
You are wishing that right? Or speaking about a houserule?
Spiritual weapon is a melee spell attack. 1d8 bonus applies on weapon attacks.
Or I missed something...

Zalabim

2017-01-02, 09:21 AM

That's basically the fluff for Harry Potter, jedi and lots of characters in stories. Just being born with an affinity/potential for magic.

They have the potential, whereas others don't. They have an affinity that makes it easier to learn. They usually still have to learn it. They still have teachers. They weren't born knowing how to cast fireball, but the "born with magic" fluff of sorcerers implies that they were. I can imagine a sorcerer training their magic to increase their power like a warrior training to increase their strength*, but I haven't got even an inkling as to where the knowledge of specific spells comes from. Dragons. Pshaw.

*Great, now I'm imagining a mad wizard that captures and dissects sorcerers to harvest the special magic muscles that non-sorcerers don't have.

Initiative is a good use, ambush is often passive perception and probably not usable
It feels like it should be usable on passive checks, but I don't know how you'd tell your DM that you want to use it on a check you don't know you're making.

And dragon sorcerer had been adding that much or more 100% of the time to whichever of those spells they took (limited options, no sorcerer is taking all those spells) for 12 levels. 12 levels of a better boost is a lot of time, for most campaigns it is all the time
And evokers get that boost since level 10, but there isn't really another feature that I'd rather move to get bombardment earlier. The Wild Mage's equivalence for bonus damage is the useful surges you can roll.

I prefaced my odd spell list a while ago but my sorcerer doesn't want her Magic, she doesn't have any spells with material components... cuts down my choices in this domain a lot
That leaves Burning Hands, Thunderwave, a big gap to Cloudkill, then high level spells like Fire Storm, Incendiary Cloud, and Prismatic Spray. You could justify Sunbeam if you're a super sleuth, as that just takes a magnifying glass. (Naturally.)

Citan

2017-01-02, 09:42 AM

Playing dragon is pretty much defacto superior unless you want the shenanigans of wild mage surges.

While I don't disagree that having bend luck is probably one of the most versatile and great use of spell points it gobbles up your reaction and is so useful and versatile that you'll likely be burning through spell slots just to keep up with all the spell points you'll be using.

The Dragon Sorcerer is safer. That 1 hp/level can be anywhere from 10-20% more hp and makes you feel less like a pinnata. If you ever get attacked with the 13AC you'd have as a wild mage and the 1 less hp/level every time any mob or PC puts there attention on you it's a problem. Not dying is the name of the game and wild mages, while hilarious and fun, can also hurt themselves with wild surges.

Getting free mage armor not only frees up the slot(s) it frees up the spell known which is a much bigger deal at higher levels. But once you get flight, the point is not that you no longer need fly/feather fall it's that you don't have to use up your precious concentration in order to fly.

If you ever get the opportunity to play a level 14+ character I urge you to try Dragon Sorcerer just so you can see how strong it is. Sure other mages can fly, and faster too, but it costs them their concentration! You see a mage flying and BAM dispel magic and counterspell the featherfall.
I disagree on the third paragraph, because in my opinion it's the opposite. The permanent Mage Armor has diminishing return over levels.
At first, it is great because of what you explained: one of the few precious slots is spared, along with a little HP that still may mean the difference between being dropped or not.
But later... Wild Magic Sorcerer has plenty ways to get similar AC, unless, of course, both multiclassing and feats are forbidden. In this case, you are indeed stuck with either having one slot/spell reserved for your armor, or negotiating a downtime activity with the DM that would allow you to get some proficiency or specially crafted clothing (=houserule).
Also, Favoured Soul get medium armor and shield proficiency, and Storm Sorcerer gets some free move/disengage to help keeping safe distance. ;)

Ok... Bombardment has a non-trivial chance to not happen even if you hit (which of course, most of your spells need to hit in some capacity)

I don't want to sound like I don't like Wild Sorcerer, I play one for a reason... I played a Wild Mage in 2e for similar reasons... but it definitely feels like you *give up* power to choose the flavorful option, not even breaking even. In the broader context of the thread, nearly every great advantage cited to defend 'sorcerer's bad rap' is a Dragon Sorcerer ability, which from a larger design perspective probably isn't good; especially not when the obvious comparisons across similar classes already looks bleak on the surface
Err... Not? ;)
I thought the case for Wild Magic Sorcerer was pretty clear: although it may be expensive in Sorcery Points, it is by far the most efficient spellcaster because he can pair Bend Luck with Heightened, Empowered with Bombardment, and get at least 1/long rest Indomitable, except more versatile.

Favoured Soul, when allowed, gives a number of spell known close enough to a Bard, defense and martial attack.
Storm Sorcerer provides a helpful move when casting a spell, together with a friendly AUTO-DAMAGE to people close to you. And a powerful AUTO-DAMAGE reaction against a melee attacker (better damage than a martial unless Sneak Attack or GWM). Obviously, it is powerful because you are not supposed to look for danger anyways, since low hit die and AC. But when multiclassing is allowed, just a small dip in Fighter, Paladin, Cleric or even Barbarian could make it extremely powerful.
(Not speaking of Shadow Sorcerer because it is stupidly OP, very little chance to become official as is).

It feels like it should be usable on passive checks, but I don't know how you'd tell your DM that you want to use it on a check you don't know you're making.

Well, it may feel awkward, but if you know the kind of check you really want to "help", you could just say it...
Like, you feel you are walking into a place with traps, tell your DM that "I want my Tide of Chaos affect the next passive tentative to detect a trap".
Although, I'm not sure I agree with you on the desired intent: the wording makes Tide of Chaos feel very much as an effect born from a conscious decision, while passive checks are usually just "things that come into your sight/mind naturally".

ApplePen

2017-01-02, 09:47 AM

Shadow really should be a Gnome Variant Wizard thing, anyway

Addaran

2017-01-02, 12:32 PM

'Biggest number of cantrips' seems rather misleading. They get one extra one over other casters. Not exactly Christmas come early. :smallwink:

That doesn't make it good fluff though. :smalltongue:

HP's magic system in particular feels like about 4 different systems inexpertly mashed together. So, we have 'wizarding' being a genetic trait passed down from parents to children . . . and yet it doesn't actually do anything unless said wizard also obtains a wand (of which there are many types that won't all respond to a given wizard's . . . um . . . wizarding genes) and waves it in the correct way whilst reciting some Faux Latin.

So, at some point in history, there had to be the first wizard (or the first one to recognise himself as such). This individual would first have to be born with the correct genes. Then they would have to decide to construct a special wand for themselves, which is both magically functional and also the correct type for their wizarding genes. And then they would have to wave it about whilst reciting exactly the right Faux Latin to successfully cast a spell.

Bard, druid and warlock have only 2, wizards and clerics 3. Since i made a warlock and a druid recently, sorcerer did look like twice as much for me. ;)

Yeah, HP's magic system kinda lack constistency. Harry can do stuff untrained without a wand and without faux Latin when he's young, but one little mistake with intonation means Ron who's always been a wizard fail his spell.

Teleportation over long distance is the one magic that's "easy" to do without needing wands or faux Latin. Compared to all the other simple spells.

For the movies, they keep spamming basic attack spell like if they were in a western, without any faux Latin.

They have the potential, whereas others don't. They have an affinity that makes it easier to learn. They usually still have to learn it. They still have teachers. They weren't born knowing how to cast fireball, but the "born with magic" fluff of sorcerers implies that they were. I can imagine a sorcerer training their magic to increase their power like a warrior training to increase their strength*, but I haven't got even an inkling as to where the knowledge of specific spells comes from. Dragons. Pshaw.

I don't think sorcerers are born knowing how to cast fireball, it's something that they have to learn through pratice.

Every human can hit an immobile ball with a stick. Shooting it in a hole in one hit, 500 ft away, that takes pratice and learning. IMO it would be similar with sorcerer.

The sorcerer can do "flames" but it's just as likely to burn him, shoot from the wrong place, explode, flare way too wipe, etc. It's only through pratice that he can actually decide the flames will be a firebolt and where it will go, or a burning hands or to split it in scorching rays.

It feels like it should be usable on passive checks, but I don't know how you'd tell your DM that you want to use it on a check you don't know you're making.

Advantage works with passive checks, so it should be possible. I'd just tell the DM that if something ever try to ambush me and i still have Tide un-used, i want him to use it. Pretty easy for him to not 12+5* passive perception instead of 12.

You could say the same thing for passive perception/investigate for traps. Would only work for the first one.

Naanomi

2017-01-02, 12:45 PM

DM: 'roll for initiative'
Sorcerer: 'I use Tides for advantage!'
DM: "Oh sorry, you don't have it up... you used it on the passive check and still failed when someone snuck by you. I didn't tell you because then you would have known"

I don't see it working out that great for passives myself, but different tables would run different ways I suppose

JakOfAllTirades

2017-01-02, 01:04 PM

Chromatic Orb! You still get your dragon bonus, it's just one spell and can cover 6 damage types!
Sorcerer also have the biggest number of cantrips, so you can use one to have a different damage type (chill touch is rarely resisted, especially by things that are resistant to fire and there's a nice rider).

Sure it's not like having a single target spell, an aoe and a DoT spell for the damage type, but at least having one spell of another type (or one that have multiples) means you're not totally worthless. And it's a good idea to have when some creatures can render useless 30% of your spell list.

I'd also highly recommend the Elemental Adept feat. When you can ignore Resistance, focusing on a single damage type is a lot less risky. You'll still get shut down when facing a creature with Immunity, so plan accordingly. But how common is Immunity compared to Resistance? For Fire, Cold, Acid or Electrical, you should be okay. Just don't focus on Poison damage. Elemental Adept won't help, and Immunity to Poison does seem rather common.

Addaran

2017-01-02, 01:16 PM

I'd also highly recommend the Elemental Adept feat. When you can ignore Resistance, focusing on a single damage type is a lot less risky. You'll still get shut down when facing a creature with Immunity, so plan accordingly. But how common is Immunity compared to Resistance? For Fire, Cold, Acid or Electrical, you should be okay. Just don't focus on Poison damage. Elemental Adept won't help, and Immunity to Poison does seem rather common.

Fire immunity is also relatively common. IIRC all devils have it and most of fire "elementals". So still risky to have only fire.

Specter

2017-01-02, 01:21 PM

Slightly alluded to later, but Wall of Force isn't on the Sorcerer spell list.

Oh well. Bummer. Wall of Stone then?

Any quickened spell has its value doubled. First of all, because a cantrip increases your damage output vastly and can still give a desired effect like killing reactions or slowing the enemy down. Second, because you can still do stuff to protect yourself like Dodge or Dash without wasting your entire turn, like every other caster does. D&D is all about action economy.

JakOfAllTirades

2017-01-02, 04:08 PM

Fire immunity is also relatively common. IIRC all devils have it and most of fire "elementals". So still risky to have only fire.

Good point. Although the frequency of encountering those creature types might depend on the campaign. Poison immunity OTOH is so common I'd hesitate to consider it campaign-dependent.

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-02, 05:40 PM

Bard, druid and warlock have only 2, wizards and clerics 3. Since i made a warlock and a druid recently, sorcerer did look like twice as much for me. ;)

Ah, okay.

Yeah, HP's magic system kinda lack constistency. Harry can do stuff untrained without a wand and without faux Latin when he's young, but one little mistake with intonation means Ron who's always been a wizard fail his spell.

Teleportation over long distance is the one magic that's "easy" to do without needing wands or faux Latin. Compared to all the other simple spells.

Given how useful and powerful teleportation is, you'd think it would be used more often. :smalltongue:

For the movies, they keep spamming basic attack spell like if they were in a western, without any faux Latin.

xD

IIRC there's a particular scene where Harry casts a spell with the wand and Faux Latin (one of the generic 'attack' spells), and then proceeds to cast the same spell about 3 more times . . . yet apparently none of the subsequent casts require the Latin. :smallconfused:

Back on topic, what do you think are the best cantrips for sorcerers?

Naanomi

2017-01-02, 05:46 PM

Back on topic, what do you think are the best cantrips for sorcerers?
I like an attack (Firebolt or something tied to your Dragon Element); a save or melee spell if you can't get away from a foe (Shocking grasp is my preferred); Magehand... the rest to taste (more versatile attack cantrips... mending or prestidigitation if you like them...)

Pex

2017-01-02, 05:59 PM

I didn't say it was bad - just rather dull (compared with, say, the shadow sorcerer summoning The Hound of the Baskervilles :smallwink:).

So, you'd have no issues exploring a volcano lair (full of creatures immune to fire) with fire spells as your only offence?

It is prudent for any sorcerer player to have more offense spells than just their favored element. A character who doesn't is a player error problem not a class problem. For one particular adventure exploring a volcano lair, I just do something else and not resent it. If the entire campaign is about the volcano lair and other fire-based areas, then the DM should say so in the first place and tell players fire-based sorcerers just won't work but cold-based ones will be quite effective for damage attacks.

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-02, 06:24 PM

It is prudent for any sorcerer player to have more offense spells than just their favored element.

So, I ask again, what are you giving up in exchange? Are you making a pure blaster with virtually no utility spells? Or are you sacrificing fire spells and getting very little mileage out of your dragon bonus?

A character who doesn't is a player error problem not a class problem.

Yep, it's entirely the player's fault that the sorcerer is allowed barely any spells and then further boxed in by a feature that only rewards them if they stick with a single element.

For one particular adventure exploring a volcano lair, I just do something else and not resent it.

Each to their own. I suspect the above scenario would result in me eating my character sheet. :smallwink:

If the entire campaign is about the volcano lair and other fire-based areas, then the DM should say so in the first place and tell players fire-based sorcerers just won't work but cold-based ones will be quite effective for damage attacks.

Whereupon the player finds out that fire is the only element that gets a good representation. Look in the PHB and tell me which 2nd and 3rd level Cold spells you think this player should pick.

Addaran

2017-01-02, 07:13 PM

Back on topic, what do you think are the best cantrips for sorcerers?

1X A damage cantrip of your element.

2X Some utility between light/dancinglight (if lacking darkvision), mage hand, mending, minor illusion and prestigitation.
Mold earth and Shape Water are cool too if they fit your element.

For the 4th and 5th pick, either more utility or an alternative attack to be a bit more versatile. It can be from various angle:
Attack roll vs saves
Melee, range or aoe
Damage type

The ratio of utility vs damage spells will depend on your slotted spell knowns.

Citan

2017-01-02, 08:26 PM

So, you'd have no issues exploring a volcano lair (full of creatures immune to fire) with fire spells as your only offence?

It is prudent for any sorcerer player to have more offense spells than just their favored element. A character who doesn't is a player error problem not a class problem. For one particular adventure exploring a volcano lair, I just do something else and not resent it. If the entire campaign is about the volcano lair and other fire-based areas, then the DM should say so in the first place and tell players fire-based sorcerers just won't work but cold-based ones will be quite effective for damage attacks.
+100.
Any player having taken solely fire spells as his only offense just because "I'm a Draconic Sorcerer \o/" is either someone truly dedicated to fluff, even at the price of basic efficiency planning (just hoping he talked about this with his team beforehand), or is just a simple idiot. ;)

Given that sorcerers know barely more than one spell per level, even taking a few non-fire spells would be a massive investment. That sorcerer basically has 2 choices:
- Take those spells instead of fire spells (in which case, I can't imagine he's getting much value from the dragon power).
- Or take those spells as well as fire spells (in which case he'll have virtually no utility spells).

So, I ask again, what are you giving up in exchange? Are you making a pure blaster with virtually no utility spells? Or are you sacrificing fire spells and getting very little mileage out of your dragon bonus?
You are totally making a mountain from a mold.
First, the Sorcerer can swap a spell known for another, so you can recycle easily (for example Burning Hands (1st) with Fireball (3rd): you lose a bit in versatility, but you usually stay at range so it won't matter in the long run).
Second, the Sorcerer has plenty of spells that have versatile uses: Chromatic Orb is a pretty decent attack that targets 6 types, Enhance Ability targets all 6 stats, Levitate, Enlarge/Reduce and Suggestion can be used in different ways etc.
Third, the Sorcerer spell list offers enough versatility to get any kind of buff/debuff/control you want: single-target, AOE, environment.
Fourth, the Sorcerer spell list offers enough variety to target any attributes.
So someone just aiming at mechanical efficiency should just always keep one debuff spell per attribute. That's 6 down on 15, 9 left. Let's say you also want to be versatile on damage, so you take Chromatic Bolt, Fireball and Cone of Cold. 6 spells left. Let's include Shield to be on the safe side. 5 left.
Congrats, you are now a totally versatile Sorcerer that can totally play solo.
Oh, wait, someone tells me something about a strange word... "Party"...
You know, the group of people which one usually travels, with which he forms a pool of complementary strengths and weaknesses, which means a good character (meta: a good player) will actually specialize himself depending on what the party needs... Meaning that you have actually no obligation to cover all cases of buff, debuff or AOE and you may very well keep the "mandatory list" very short, like 5-6 spells because of party request or just overall usefulness, and reward yourself with fun by toying with any other for the remaining spell known.
And having 15 spell known to blow on 21 slots at most is very decent enough.

Yep, it's entirely the player's fault that the sorcerer is allowed barely any spells and then further boxed in by a feature that only rewards them if they stick with a single element.
Cleric: +1d8 damage on a melee attack, which is usually not what they do.
Warlock Undying: +CHA on fire and radiant, which applies on basically 2 cantrips and at most 6-7 spells (AFB). On 15 known.
Booooh, it's so bad...
Wait... Actually, nobody complains.
Your critic is just sterile... Very very few class features overall are useful every turn throughout the day. Casters are little once out of slots, Battlemaster is back to a plain "hit things" once manoeuvers are all rolled, and so on...
The Sorcerer's feature is in essence situational because casting a damage-dealing spell is a situational thing. Same as Ranger's Natural Exporer feature: nobody is building a character revolving 100% around it. It's just a nice ability to keep in mind for when it can be useful.

The "spell known limitation" is actually one of the greatest fallacies of this forum when you talk about optimization...
Just look around...
Eldricht Knight/Arcane Trickster threads: "take Shield, Mirror Image, Haste": 3 spells that will easily dry up their respective level slots, so 3 spells for 10 slots on the 11 available... Why even bother learning the other 10 then?
Cleric: "take Healing Words, Bless, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians": 4 spells using up half the slots available. Or probably more since higher level spells from Cleric, while great, have usually a lower chance of being used (except maybe Banishment or Flame Strike) since most target "recovery" situations.
Bard: "take Healing Words, Dissonant Whispers, Heat Metal, Bestow Curse, Greater Invisibility": 4 spells always useful, that will probably use up their respective spell slots, for more than half your whole casting.

Even Wizards don't escape this in some way, although the large ritual panel alleviates this quite a bit: they will still tend to focus on spells related to their school obviously. Of course they are hovering far above other casters in terms of actual, daily versatility. But they are the only one in this case.

Those excepted, the fact stays indubitably for all other casters. And it is in fact absolutely not a problem. Because one "optimizer" will tend to generally use the same selected spells as illustrated above, so he will rarely feel in fact restricted. And one non optimizer won't care about efficiency so he will pick spells that seem fun to use, and will change them as he level... So he won't feel restricted either. ;)

Whereupon the player finds out that fire is the only element that gets a good representation. Look in the PHB and tell me which 2nd and 3rd level Cold spells you think this player should pick.
Nice try (or not all things considered). The Evil Companion is an official book, so why would one not use it if he wants an ice-themed Sorcerer?
Ice Knife scales pretty decently, otherwise Snowball offers a "damage on successful save". Otherwise Chromatic Orb.
Wall of Water is not technically "ice" but fits within theme and offer nice benefits.
Sleet Storm as 4th level provides damage and terrain control. Otherwise you get Watery Sphere which is nice too.
Then Cone of Cold.
So you have at least 1 spell for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th level. For those that think "it is not enough", confer my previous point about spell known fallacy.
Only (unexplainable imo) miss is 6th level Wall of Ice. Really don't understand why that isn't on Sorcerer list...

Back on topic, what do you think are the best cantrips for sorcerers?
1 melee attack cantrip
Unless you have a good melee option from any source, Shocking Grasp feels like the "always included" one: no disadvantage on the attack roll and provides free disengage. If you have a high attack stat, weapon cantrips can be better.

1 ranged attack cantrip
I prefer ones with riders such as Ray of Frost, but even plain Firebolt is a good choice considering the higher range. Favor one that uses your target damage type or in the contrary something that complement your spells.

1 cantrip targeting a save for those high AC targets (preferably Dexterity or mental stat).

2 general utility (Mage Hand, Message, Minor Illusion)

Whatever you want for the last.

Arnie82

2017-01-02, 09:29 PM

I started reading this thread with a mind set that sorcerers and lacking a bit. The more I read it, the more balanced I see them. I still feel they are missing a few things, but they are very fun to play.

I think it just comes down to needing more meta magic options known and more sorcery points. Like the ability to gain half your level's worth of sorcery points back during a short rest once a day. Another option would be to gain an extra sorcery point at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20.

I always felt short on points. I had to choose between and extra spell slot or 2, or using metamagic.

As far as how each origin is balanced between each other.

Dragon sorcerer is very fun to play. You only need 2 maybe 3 spells that match you element to use it effectively. Any more then that and it's a waste. Kinda like a PAM fighter carrying a pike, glave, and halberd.

Favored Soul has a nice boost with the extra spells. I went War Favored. Spiritual weapon for a "3rd" attack is a nice boost for a melee sorcerer , while crusaders mantle and spirit guardian are crazy casting with quicken.

Wild is very DM dependant. If your DM has your roll on the chart a lot it's fun , if not...

I have no experience with the storm so I'm not going to really comment on it.

This thread has me wanting to build my sorcery built around booming blade, lightening lure, and cloud of daggers.

Addaran

2017-01-02, 10:13 PM

Nice try (or not all things considered). The Evil Companion is an official book, so why would one not use it if he wants an ice-themed Sorcerer?
Ice Knife scales pretty decently, otherwise Snowball offers a "damage on successful save". Otherwise Chromatic Orb.
Wall of Water is not technically "ice" but fits within theme and offer nice benefits.
Sleet Storm as 4th level provides damage and terrain control. Otherwise you get Watery Sphere which is nice too.
Then Cone of Cold.
So you have at least 1 spell for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th level. For those that think "it is not enough", confer my previous point about spell known fallacy.
Only (unexplainable imo) miss is 6th level Wall of Ice. Really don't understand why that isn't on Sorcerer list...

Sleet Storm is lvl 3 and doesn't have any damage to it. You're thinking Ice Storm. =P

Rhedyn

2017-01-02, 10:43 PM

Dragon sorcerer's should have their bloodline damage cantrip and an off damage cantrip. They shouldn't waste any actual spells known on off damage. IMHO having more than one damage spell is gratuitous.

There are much better combat spells than damage. Heighten Banishment in a higher slot to split the ecnounter, twin polymorph two allies, Animate objects, Telekinesis, ect.

Just because twin firebolt is amazing round by round damage, does not mean you should focus on blasting.

Pex

2017-01-02, 11:00 PM

What I've done with my 9th level Sorcerer for non-Fire.

Knowing from Session 0 that I would be relying on my Cantrips a lot for needful conserving of spells, I knew I needed something else besides Fire Bolt for when fire wouldn't work. However, I was greedy simplistic in not wanting to lose damage. I could have taken Ray of Frost or Chill Touch, but instead I went with Magic Initiate Eldritch Blast and Hex just for the raw damage. The disadvantage Hex applies has proven quite helpful in its own right, especially against Strength since many monsters we've been facing like to grapple. Twinning it has been superb.

Shocking Grasp (to be able to move without AoO), Shield, and Misty Step are my defensive spells.

I did have Expeditious Retreat but traded it for Teleportation Circle since I've been using Misty Step a lot more often.

Campaign circumstances made Suggestion suboptimal. I hardly ever got to use it because the main bad guys have Advantage against it. I switched it to Enhance Ability and find myself casting it practically every adventure, mostly Dex on a party member for Stealth and Cha for communications. Twinning it is also superb. Subtle Enhance Ability Eagle's Splendor on myself while obviously more involved is a more helpful thing to do than Friends or Charm Person.

I took Dispel Magic, but the campaign has shown me it's not so needed. I also chalk it up to 3E bias as to why chose it in the first palce where subjectively it's more useful than in 5E. I'll likely switch it to Counterspell next level, though it's tough to compete with Shield for my reaction. Even so, I may even change that to Major Image at level 11 because I so want to cast permanent illusions. Although, since the DM nerfed Animate Objects to my chagrin I took Telekinesis instead. Level 10 I may take Major Image then and forget about another 5th level spell and just be happy with Telekinesis and Teleportation Circle.

Banishment was an easy choice. Saved the party plenty of times. Twinning it also superb.

We have faced fire resistant creatures. Annoying when it happens, I do something else and not resent it. It is also true that not every combat encounter has fire resistant creatures. I get plenty of fun with Fire Bolt, Burning Hands, Fireball, and Wall of Fire. Wall of Fire has been an excellent control spell. The DM doesn't metagame bad guys thinking Wall of Fire is only 5d8 damage and go through anyway. They don't want to get hurt and respond accordingly.

My Sorcerer is not suffering at all in being effective. Sometimes I'm MVP of the combat. Sometimes I'm not. That's how it should be.

SharkForce

2017-01-02, 11:42 PM

*sigh*

sorcerers don't just get 15 spells. they get 15 spells by the time they're level 20 (well, by the time they're level 17 anyways). having to blow 9 of those just to cover the basics means that for a very large part of their adventuring career, they get basically no customization (and it gets even worse if in addition to covering one of each save, 2 damage types, and a single defensive spell, they want to actually provide, say, more than one defensive spell, and be able to perform more than one effect for certain saves because, for example, immunity to charm or fear is relatively common. or if they want to have more than one option because one option is strong but single target while another option is weak but multitarget, or because they don't have a lot of high level spell slots but they still want access to a powerful spell because it is powerful).

which means that it is entirely possible that just to cover the basics they might need over the course of their adventuring career, they're quite possibly blowing every single spell on that job and not getting any real variety at all until extremely late levels, or possibly even never.

and please, don't insult us by telling us that sorcerer is fine because favoured soul is fine. favoured soul is a playtest document that goes directly against the advice they gave for creating sorcerer archetypes and will almost certainly be nerfed brutally *if* it ever even gets formally published at some point (just like the storm sorcerer lost all of the bonus spells known it had in the unearthed arcana where it was originally previewed).

and no, warlocks don't have equal spells known. warlocks get 15 spells known from levels 1-5, PLUS 4 more from mystic arcana, PLUS whatever they pick up from their SEVEN invocations, several of which can provide infinite use of certain spells if they choose them. that is not equal.

now, sorcerers are not unplayable by any means. almost nothing is unplayable in 5e, really... i could probably grab almost any three random classes and make a multiclass build that will at least be playable. but all these "they're fine" arguments seem to keep displaying the same flawed arguments, acting like sorcerers are all level 20, acting like unofficial archetypes are the actual state of the sorcerer, and acting like they are no more limited than warlocks (although i do feel like warlocks could use some minor tweaks to make them a bit more appealing for more than a dip as well).

pair this up with archetypes that all too often fall flat at portraying their fluff and a distinct lack of class features outside of metamagic (not that metamagic isn't good, it's just that it's the only real class feature they get), and you get the current state of sorcerer.

CaptainSarathai

2017-01-03, 12:35 AM

And you are a fullcasters on top of that. Sorcerers are really competing with warlocks at who can be the better party face/solid damage/control speller.
No - the two join forces and take over the world.
The Sorcerer is by no means bad straight-classed, but most people's problems here seem to be fixed by dabbling a bit in Warlock.

Sorcerers are really powerful, the problem is that they are 1) seen as blasters and 2) seen as simple.

A sorcerer as a blaster is a waste and actually not playing to it's strengths. Sure if you go for a draconic sorcerer you can do blasting well when needed but it should only be part of a repertoire of spells. To be fair the WotC seem to have guided people into thinking that way. Metamgic like careful spell makes a sorcerer an enviable disruptor/controller - good con saves help keep concentration on this type of save better than any other caster.

When people see the sorcerer as a simpler version of the wizard they often guide it to new players when in fact it needs much more system mastery to get the most out of it. This doesn't mean it can't be fun for newer players in a lower optimisation game though.

The lack of spells is a distinct call feature and requires great planning. I have seen some new players just play a draconic sorcerer and keep adding the most damaging spell in their element they can to their spell list each time they get a new one and no swapping any out. I have seen players be determined to have a spell available for every level of spell slot they have. Metamagic is at the heart of the sorcerer and to be effective you should use it. A lot. Sacrificing spell slots to gain more sorcery points is what fuels your power. If this means you drop all 2nd level spells and expect to convert all those slots into sorcery points - that is fine. Do you need scorching ray as a spell when you can use that slot for the metamagic to twin/quicken a firebolt for more damage? Find the spells that scale well when cast from a higher slot, the versatility they offer can free up spells know choices for more specialist spells.

Players, especially new players, also seem to sometimes use metamagic in only one way. For example quicken spell seems to mainly be used (by my observation) to cast a spell and to also cast a cantrip in the same round. A bit more system mastery may mean that it occurs to you to use the dash action to get into a better position for your lightning bolt/cone of cold/whatever area spell instead - sometimes a much better use of metamagic.

The sorcerer spells known is adequate - it prompts hard decisions but is amply compensated for through the massively powerful metamagic. The sorcerer may be badly designed in that it is tough to play to squeeze the maximum power out, but it is not a weak class - not by a long way. You can still pick spells targeting different saves with a variety of effects and different damage types (don't fall into the trap of playing a draconic sorcerer then thinking you need to stick to that element type for damage). It isn't the class it is the players.

I don't understand what's so great about Quicken. I can spend 2 points out of my precious resource to, what, cast an extra cantrip? Whoopty-freakin'-doo.

Been playing a wild mage sorcerer for about six months, have had the opportunity to try several spell loadouts (thanks to GM intervention), and no matter the loadout, so far best options in the field have been "cast chromatic orb again" and "get outclassed in every avenue of my niche by the bard."

I would say that despite their limited spell list they are the most complex caster to play, as such they will probably be underutilised or appear bad to a majority of players because playing them effectively entails a lot of min-maxing.

This. Absolutely.
I would rather throw a new player a Bard or a Wizard, than a Sorcerer. Just because Sorcs dont pick their spells every day, and know fewer spells, does NOT make them easy - it makes them harder. Sorcerers have to think in terms of their entire career, and be aware that their spell list will have to either change over time, and/or needs to have solid, scale-able spells.

The Wizard is really quite straight-forward. Stand back, shielded by the party, and start incanting the giant world-shattering spell. Wizards seem to have that traditional "pyramid" power scale, where they have lots of low-level, low-power stuff, and then as you climb the levels it all hits harder but happens less. Sorcerers have a more robust middle, because of Metamagic. They can burn the low end for Spell Points, or burn the High End.
Facing a horde of Orcs? The Sorc doesn't need some humongous powerful spell, so he breaks down a top-slot to fuel his Metamagic and then lays in by modifying his lower level spells. Facing the BBEG? He starts burning those puny L1-3 slots to modify up-casted spells and other big stuff.

For everyone complaining that Dragon ties you to a single Element: Elemtnal Adept was literally made for DracSorcs. Wanna get +Cha to Fire? Wanna also ignore resistances and reroll some damage? Awesome! Just a Feat away.

I feel one thing that hasn't been pointed out much, is that out of the full caster classes, Sorcerer might be the best Pure Class Gish.

Reasons:
-In class innate armor
-access to melee cantrips
-access to melee spell enhancers like haste/shield
-Metamagic allows for further melee tricks

I wouldn't necessarily say Gish, because as a Sorc you're not too hot with weapons. Otherwise though, I do agree - Sorcs are among the best of the Full Casters at "getting in the cut-and-thrust."
The way I look at Sorcs vs Wizards, is that the Wizard is artillery, and the Sorcerer is close-air-support.
To get the most out of the Wizard, you need to defend him behind the line, and then set him up. Seeing helpful combat returns on the Wizard isn't always immediate, because you might need to cover him while he repositions, or you may need to just clear the area, because that barrage is indiscriminate.
The Sorcerer won't level everything in sight quite like the Wizard, but he's got reasonable defenses and even HP to be nearby. If he's out of position, he can Dash and then Quicken the spell. If you need someone to drop a massive AoE on the group, you call the Sorcerer, because he can MM:Careful and miss your party members while laying waste to the surrounding mob.

Combat tactics usually revolve around the Wizard. A Sorcerer - even with his smaller list of spells known - always seems better at working around what the party needs from moment to moment.

SharkForce

2017-01-03, 01:08 AM

sorcerers, by default, have the exact same HP and armour options as a wizard. they are not tougher in and of themselves in any way.

and careful spell is awful at not hitting party members with nukes. it's an amazing spell for crowd control. but if you want someone who can drop a fireball on the party and not leave so much as a singed hair, you want a wizard (evocation, specifically).

in fact, if you want a spellcaster who sits on the front lines, and you're going to bring archetype abilities into the mix, bladesinger blows dragon sorcerer away by a mile when it comes to defensive options. adds int to con saves and AC, has access to mage armour and shield putting the wizard on par with the sorcerer, and while the wizard could potentially have fewer HP, the wizard actually gets access to better spells for helping out with HP too. like vampiric touch. you want bonus action damage? flaming sphere gives you that starting at level 3, so the same time as the sorcerer, except you don't need to burn SP or a very limited metamagic option on it.

although why exactly you'd want a single classed sorcerer *or* wizard to be on the front line is beyond me.

Pex

2017-01-03, 01:12 AM

SharkForce

2017-01-03, 02:28 AM

A Sorcerer not being able to do everything is not a knock against it. A class doesn't have to be able to do everything. Sorcerer does not need to have a spell against every saving throw. He does not need to have a spell for any possible circumstance. If he's in a suboptimal situation for one encounter, shucks darn that's why there's a party. If he's in a suboptimal situation for most or every encounter the player made/is making an error somewhere and should work with the DM to fix it or the DM is a donkey cavity. The good thing about 5E is that it is you practically have to do it on purpose to be suboptimal for most or every encounter given the DM is not a donkey cavity.

and yet other casters *do* have that advantage. and also get more than one class feature. and get equally interesting subclasses, if not more interesting. in particular, the nearest equivalent gets all of that.

now, if sorcerers had an equal pile of advantages, fine, no problem. even if i wouldn't *like* the sorcerer if it was, for example, turned into a dedicated blaster that had a major advantage in that area over wizard, well, it's hard to say whether it would be *exactly* balanced, but it's at least balanced in that each has a role; if you want to be a controller, you pick wizard, and if you want to be a striker, you pick sorcerer. i would think that sucked in the sense that i like the idea of playing a sorcerer better, and i don't *want* to be a striker, but that's just preference.

but that isn't the case. we don't have sorcerers with vastly superior blasting ability, nor indeed do they really have massive superiority in any area. this is not to say that sorcerers have nothing... metamagic is great. it is a wonderful feature for almost any other class to steal. in fact, it's almost better for every other class than it is for sorcerer. i love some of the options that metamagic gives... subtle spell does wonderful things for mental control spells in social situations, careful spell makes zones just that little bit better because they tend to be safer for your allies... but the thing is, a careful web is a pretty cool thing to be able to do, but it isn't really definitively superior to a hypnotic pattern used at the right time (ie before your party gets mixed in), and most of those social spells aren't much better than just having a decent bonus to a social skill, plus maybe a friend, and may even come with major drawbacks after the fact. quicken is pretty cool from a non-spellcasting perspective (which is not exactly ideal for a primary spellcaster... remember how i said metamagic is almost a better feature for everyone else to have?), twin lets you take the few worthwhile buffs in the game and make them awesome, and so on, but it mostly boils down to how awesome those abilities would be on any other class but a sorcerer.

Citan

2017-01-03, 03:27 AM

Sleet Storm is lvl 3 and doesn't have any damage to it. You're thinking Ice Storm. =P
Oooops right, my bad. XD

and yet other casters *do* have that advantage. and also get more than one class feature. and get equally interesting subclasses, if not more interesting. in particular, the nearest equivalent gets all of that.

It's always funny how some try to give their argument more weight by deforming facts...
When you say "other caster", you actually say only "Wizard". It is the only one trumping others in terms of spellcasting.
Bard? You get a few Magic Secrets, which you can use for blasting, apart from that, you have nearly 0 direct damage spells.
Clerics? Apart from Life and Tempest, there is absolutely no class feature enhancing the spells (apart cantrips).
Warlock? They get a few free spells, but no feature actually enhancing your spellcasting.
Druid? Absolutely no spellcasting enhancement.

Sorcerer is the only one that can have control over damage, efficiency and time of his spells, all "at the same time". And he is the only one that can prevent any Counterspell. That makes it trumping every other caster except Wizards in their respective schools for a given spell but even so, only in some situations do Wizard win.
For example, Diviner can be the best on debuffs, but only 3 times per long rest. It is otherwise lesser than a (Wild Magic) Sorcerer with Heightened.
Evoker is the best when AOE "on partys" are concerned, but is otherwise lesser than a (Draconic) Sorcerer with Empowered metamagic (1/long rest maximum damage VS anytime CHA die reroll).
Enchanter can be better than Sorcerer as soon as twinning is a right choice for the current situation, but cannot affect chances of success. Still getting "free twin" is indeed nice.
Necromant and Bladesinger are the only schools bringing a clear cut edge over Sorcerer in their respective categories (undead minions and melee).
Every other school brings features that are very good, but not related to spellcasting (even if some recharge with spellcasting).

That it costs resources (Sorcery Points) for a Sorcerer to be that good is perfectly normal. Otherwise, it would just be too powerful. Confer the previous "other casters" comparison list.

And he is the only one barring Wizard and maybe Druid having such a diverse selection of spells as is. Bard makes it up with Magic Secrets but is still shoe-horned into a buffer.
But most of Sorcerer spells have at least two different ways to be used, so each spell has a chance to be useful in a variety of situations.

Zalabim

2017-01-03, 04:53 AM

Citan

2017-01-03, 05:26 AM

The fact is that Wizard has a better spell list and is capable of performing feats in their specialization that a sorcerer can't match. An evoker is a better blaster than a dragon sorc, and an abjurer has better defenses, but the dragon sorc is a better blaster than an abjurer and has better defenses than an evoker. The result is that optimizing a sorcerer for what they're best at means making a generalist with as broad a base of abilities as possible rather than picking a theme and exploring it. If you want a spellcaster who does one job really well, there's probably a wizard for that. A dragon sorc is not the best blaster. A wild mage is not the best debuffer. A storm sorcerer is not the best skirmisher. They are blasters, and debuffers, and skirmishers altogether. They need to be.

The wild mage really exemplifies metamagic's benefit of picking any spell and making it better. If evoker gets you +1 or +2 to all evocation spells, metamagic gives you +1 to whatever spell you spend it on. The flexibility and ability to nova is counter-balanced by the sorcerer's limited resources.

The spell list woes are natural when the most apt way to build a sorcerer is to expand their spell options as much as possible. Maybe the limits and restrictions are too harsh, but I'm pretty sure the class still works.
Sorry but I don't even agree with the statement that Wizard does always better than Sorcerer in their own specialization.
As I illustrated, a Diviner ensures his spell hits 3 times a day at most if he rolled favourably. On the upside, it's a sure thing. Sorcerer can do it at least 6 times a day. Sure, unless you are a Wild Magic Sorcerer stacking Bend Luck with Heightened, it is less reliable when compared to good Portent rolls, since it is "only" disadvantage, so an enemy could still be lucky both times. But it usually halves the chances of an enemy making the save. When stacked with Bend Luck for your biggest fight of the say, you are close to a sure-hit against many creatures.
(Confer to this table (http://andrewgelman.com/2014/07/12/dnd-5e-advantage-disadvantage-probability/) if you want to make some simulations yourself ;)).

An Evoker Wizard adds his INT to all Evocation spells, but can only maximize damage 1/long rest (twice, maybe thrice if he has someone along to heal/revive him just after). A Sorcerer can spend just 1 SP to reroll several die, greatly improving the general amount of damage.

Enchanter can freely twin his spells, but can still waste the spell on both counts depending on enemy roll.

Abjurer gets a 1/long rest THP that amounts to 25 HP maximum, which can sometimes be replenished for 2 or 4 THP usually. Until you get 18th level, it is strictly on par with Draconic's Extra HP. After that, it can be assimilated as a "1/turn 2 THP" if you take Shield as your free spell, which makes it slightly better in the long run when you count the accumulated prevention of damage. But it won't change anything as far as surviving a particular encounter is concerned, with enemies dealing several dozen points of damage per hit.

I fully agree however that Necromant, Bladesinger and Conjurer have no counterpart in Sorcerer. Transmuter is a particular one. ;)

What people don't like is that Sorcerer's effects is less "firm" than their Wizard equivalent, but on the other hand, you get many more chances to use them and they still provide a significant benefit. So your general efficiency over the course of the day is better, so it compensates fairly the fact you have less slots (because of no recovery).

Others take against Sorcerer that it would be less versatile than other casters because of lesser spell known. Beyond the fact that this is an exaggerated assumption except for direct comparison with Wizard, in what way is this a problem?
A Barbarian can basically only hit things, compared to a Battlemaster or an Arcane Trickster. Do people avoid Barbarian "because it's not versatile"? No. They play it for its strengths and have fun with it.

Sorcerer (and Warlocks) are exactly the same: they are not supposed to be as versatile as Wizards (because Wizard potentially crushes any other caster anyways in terms of spell versatility, since there is no limit to potential number of spell "known"), they are supposed to be efficient in the role they give themselves. And they succeed very well at that. For any given spell shared between several casters, they are better than any other at debuffing, they are better than most in dealing AOE damage, they are better than all others at buffing...
It does not prevent them to also be flexible by taking an array of spells (or invocations) that is outside of their initial scope.
But they will still usually cast the spells of their "focus", because the party is expecting them to do that, and will build strategies upon. Exactly the same way a Cleric may have 25 spells prepared but will still blow most of his spellcasting on Bless, Healing Words, Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians, because it is what is expected of him from his teammates. Exactly the same way a party may like a Bard casting Heat Metal or Hold Person any chance he gets, or a Druid to keep his 2nd level slot for Pass Without Trace, or a Fiend Warlock to be the Fireball blaster even if he knows Fear, Fly or Hold Monster, because he is the only one with such a spell...

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-03, 06:47 AM

+100.
Any player having taken solely fire spells as his only offense just because "I'm a Draconic Sorcerer \o/" is either someone truly dedicated to fluff, even at the price of basic efficiency planning (just hoping he talked about this with his team beforehand), or is just a simple idiot. ;)

I'm glad we've managed to circle back to this strawman for the third time now.

Do you have a solution to it, or are we just going to watch burning straw for the next few hours?

The issue is the sorcerer's limited very limited number of spells known and the opportunity cost of taking spells outside of his element. Sure, you can just take a mixture of elemental spells - but then why even play a dragon sorcerer?

You are totally making a mountain from a mold. I think you mean 'molehill'.
First, the Sorcerer can swap a spell known for another, so you can recycle easily (for example Burning Hands (1st) with Fireball (3rd): you lose a bit in versatility, but you usually stay at range so it won't matter in the long run). And that helps you how? Unlike the warlock, sorcerers still have their low-level spell slots. So if you start trading up like this you're just going to end up with a load of high level spells and virtually no slots to cast them.
Second, the Sorcerer has plenty of spells that have versatile uses: Chromatic Orb is a pretty decent attack that targets 6 types, Enhance Ability targets all 6 stats, Levitate, Enlarge/Reduce and Suggestion can be used in different ways etc. Okay. So our hypothetical sorcerer has now used his entire complement of spells known and has just a single elemental spell that is barely better than Firebolt. Boy, I bet he's really glad that he picked a dragon sorcerer. Also, he's got 4 lv2 spells and 1 lv1 spell, but who's counting?

Or are we just talking about Schrödinger's Sorcerer? You know, the hypothetical sorcerer whose spell list will never be fleshed out but who will always have chosen exactly the right spell for any possible eventuality.
Third, the Sorcerer spell list offers enough versatility to get any kind of buff/debuff/control you want: single-target, AOE, environment. First off, whilst there are a lot of different AoEs, a dragon sorcerer without fire will quickly find that most of them are in the wrong element for him. Second, it doesn't matter how many there are overall - what matters is how many he can actually know.
Fourth, the Sorcerer spell list offers enough variety to target any attributes. I'm sure this will come as great comfort to he fire sorcerer as he looks on at the fire-immune monsters.
So someone just aiming at mechanical efficiency should just always keep one debuff spell per attribute. That's 6 down on 15, 9 left. Wait, what? What the hell are you smoking? That 15 your're quoting is for a 20th level sorcerer - and a supposedly elemental-based one at that. Yet already he's used more than 1/3 of the spells he'll get over his entire life on debuffs. Let's say you also want to be versatile on damage, so you take Chromatic Bolt, Fireball and Cone of Cold. 6 spells left. Let's include Shield to be on the safe side. 5 left.
Congrats, you are now a totally versatile Sorcerer that can totally play solo. And all you had to do was start at lv20. Also, let's look at something: cantrips notwithstanding, our fire sorcerer currently has *one* fire spell and one 'wildcard' spell. Why the hell is he even using a dragon sorcerer?
Oh, wait, someone tells me something about a strange word... "Party"... Oh, look - a man-shaped pile of straw.
You know, the group of people which one usually travels, with which he forms a pool of complementary strengths and weaknesses, which means a good character (meta: a good player) will actually specialize himself depending on what the party needs... Sure. If they player thinks that the party is some sort of Communist hive-mind. Because God forbid a character take spells based on their personality, background or such. No, just take whatever the party needs and be sure to quash any independent thought. Meaning that you have actually no obligation to cover all cases of buff, debuff or AOE and you may very well keep the "mandatory list" very short, like 5-6 spells because of party request or just overall usefulness, and reward yourself with fun by toying with any other for the remaining spell known. Yes, thank you Dear Leader, I shall be sure to make good use of the spell slots that The State has graciously allowed me to spend on "fun".
And having 15 spell known to blow on 21 slots at most is very decent enough. Oh, I see we're back to a lv20 sorcerer. Want to try this nonsense with, say, a lv5 sorcerer and his wopping 5 known spells? He's already at -1 spells known after your '6 debuffs' rule, and he hasn't got a single elemental spell yet.

Also, even the rest of the party is equipped to handle an enemy, having to sit back and twiddle your own thumbs is rarely fun.

Cleric: +1d8 damage on a melee attack, which is usually not what they do. Not sure what planet you're living on, but last time I checked Clerics made good melee fighters.
Warlock Undying: +CHA on fire and radiant, which applies on basically 2 cantrips and at most 6-7 spells (AFB). On 15 known. And said warlock is typically taken for 2 levels, whereupon the player multiclasses into sorcerer to basically get the dragon bonus for two elements.
Booooh, it's so bad...
Wait... Actually, nobody complains. "Some different class features aren't bad, therefore this sorcerer class feature isn't bad. Because logic. "
Your critic is just sterile... Very very few class features overall are useful every turn throughout the day. Casters are little once out of slots, Battlemaster is back to a plain "hit things" once manoeuvers are all rolled, and so on...
The Sorcerer's feature is in essence situational because casting a damage-dealing spell is a situational thing. Same as Ranger's Natural Exporer feature: nobody is building a character revolving 100% around it. It's just a nice ability to keep in mind for when it can be useful. And your rebuttal is nonexistant. This isn't about a class feature being useful at all times, it is about the spell selection being built around that class feature. Because, in case yo haven't noticed, that class feature is supposed to be the main reason to play a dragon sorcerer in the first place. If you ignore it, then why even bother?

The "spell known limitation" is actually one of the greatest fallacies of this forum when you talk about optimization... I'm not sure you understand what a fallacy is.
Just look around...
Eldricht Knight/Arcane Trickster threads: "take Shield, Mirror Image, Haste": 3 spells that will easily dry up their respective level slots, so 3 spells for 10 slots on the 11 available... Why even bother learning the other 10 then? Um . . . what? if you honestly believe that, then why were you ranting earlier about versatile spell lists?
Cleric: "take Healing Words, Bless, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians": 4 spells using up half the slots available. Or probably more since higher level spells from Cleric, while great, have usually a lower chance of being used (except maybe Banishment or Flame Strike) since most target "recovery" situations. See above.
Bard: "take Healing Words, Dissonant Whispers, Heat Metal, Bestow Curse, Greater Invisibility": 4 spells always useful, that will probably use up their respective spell slots, for more than half your whole casting. Because why have any versatility when you can just have one spell per level, right? Also, I can say from experience that, no, those spells are not always useful.

Even Wizards don't escape this in some way, although the large ritual panel alleviates this quite a bit: they will still tend to focus on spells related to their school obviously. And yet you sneer at dragon sorcerers wanting to focus on their element. Of course they are hovering far above other casters in terms of actual, daily versatility. But they are the only one in this case.

Those excepted, the fact stays indubitably for all other casters. And it is in fact absolutely not a problem. Because one "optimizer" will tend to generally use the same selected spells as illustrated above, so he will rarely feel in fact restricted. And one non optimizer won't care about efficiency so he will pick spells that seem fun to use, and will change them as he level... So he won't feel restricted either. ;) First off, are you honestly saying that there is only one "optimal" spell at each level? Second, I'm not seeing how the ability to change spells as you level somehow makes the number of spells known any less pitiful. :smallconfused:

Nice try (or not all things considered). The Evil Companion is an official book, so why would one not use it if he wants an ice-themed Sorcerer? Nice try. You're already having to go outside of core to find basic elemental spells for a core class based around elemental spells.
Ice Knife scales pretty decently, otherwise Snowball offers a "damage on successful save". Otherwise Chromatic Orb. I can't seem to find either of those in the PHB. Would you care to give a page reference? Or did you need to go outside of the PHB just to find some cold spells? Also also, I asked specifically for lv2 and lv3 spells. You ignored the core-only part and *still* botched the answer by giving 2 lv1 spells.
Wall of Water is not technically "ice" but fits within theme and offer nice benefits. It also gains no benefit from the dragon ability - which is what we're looking for.
Sleet Storm as 4th level provides damage and terrain control. Otherwise you get Watery Sphere which is nice too.
Then Cone of Cold. I think you mean Ice Storm.
So you have at least 1 spell for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th level. For those that think "it is not enough", confer my previous point about spell known fallacy. No, we have 1 lv1 spell and 1 lv4 spell. Hell, even if we accept non-core, you're still missing a lv3 spell. Want to try a bit harder?
Only (unexplainable imo) miss is 6th level Wall of Ice. Really don't understand why that isn't on Sorcerer list... Clearly they thought that the sorcerer was already so overwhelmed with options for cold spells that he'd have no need of this one.

(My responses in red.)

Something I want to clarify is that I don't think dragon sorcerers are necessarily bad - just that they tend towards being one-dimensional.

My issue is that people seem to want them to take so many spells outside their element that I have to wonder why they're even playing a dragon sorcerer in the first place. I mean, if you're going to have all of 3 fire spells at lv20, is it really worth having a bonus on fire damage? It just seems that if you're not going to focus on one element, you'd be better off using one of the other sorcerer archetypes.

And, if you are set on using a dragon sorcerer, wouldn't you want more elemental spells for the sake of flavour? I mean, if a dragon sorcerer is using a near-identical list to a shadow sorcerer or storm sorcerer, or if a red dragon sorcerer has no more fire spells than a white dragon sorcerer, then I can't imagine they'll feel very . . . dragon-y. :smalltongue:

Zalabim

2017-01-03, 06:51 AM

Sorry but I don't even agree with the statement that Wizard does always better than Sorcerer in their own specialization.
As I illustrated, a Diviner ensures his spell hits 3 times a day at most if he rolled favourably.
I know everyone loves the Diviner's portent, but their specialty is divination spells and there's no way the sorcerer can match the diviner's ability to use divination spells. If you just want to guarantee your spell works, you can't beat using a spell that allows no save at all like Wall of Force.

An Evoker Wizard adds his INT to all Evocation spells, but can only maximize damage 1/long rest (twice, maybe thrice if he has someone along to heal/revive him just after). A Sorcerer can spend just 1 SP to reroll several die, greatly improving the general amount of damage.
Sculpt spells allows blasting in situations where it's inappropriate for the sorcerer and empowered evocations applies to multiple element types giving the wizard a damage boost in situations where the dragon sorc's bonus wouldn't apply at all. It takes 2.5 empowered cone of colds to match the benefit of one maximized, or 3.5 if you're using upcasted fireballs because your element is fire, even ignoring the benefit of doing more damage in one turn. It helps if that you can still use empower on spells higher than 5th level.

A level 20 wizard with an amulet of health (or otherwise 18 Con) could manage 4 (on 5th level slots) in a day, with spending full HD healing, but they'd completely exhaust all of their HP. (10+8*19+6.5*20)=292 (1 free, 65+97.5+130)=292.5. If they got a full heal, doing a 5th one would probably KO them from full, or kill them outright if they barely kept consciousness on their own. 162 Max HP vs 25d12 (162.5). An evoker could live dangerously and go for just not instant death HP to stretch more uses of maximize.

Enchanter can freely twin his spells, but can still waste the spell on both counts depending on enemy roll.
The enchanter can also modify and erase memories.

Abjurer gets a 1/long rest THP that amounts to 25 HP maximum
The arcane ward is double level + Int, up to 45 HP, so it's clearly superior to +1 level HP before accounting for extra benefits gained casting abjuration spells.

I fully agree however that Necromant, Bladesinger and Conjurer have no counterpart in Sorcerer. Transmuter is a particular one. ;)
All wizards have unique abilities in their specialty that a sorcerer cannot match. A lot of wizard specialties require a higher level to get those abilities than a sorcerer with metamagic though.

[Edit]:
(My responses in red.)

I wish you wouldn't do that, because it makes your post a real pain to quote. [Part 2]: So here I am trying anyway.

Okay. So our hypothetical sorcerer has now used his entire complement of spells known and has just a single elemental spell that is barely better than Firebolt. Boy, I bet he's really glad that he picked a dragon sorcerer. Also, he's got 4 lv2 spells and 1 lv1 spell, but who's counting?

Our hypothetical sorcerer is apparently level 4, so they don't even care about the element of their spells yet.

And all you had to do was start at lv20. Also, let's look at something: cantrips notwithstanding, our fire sorcerer currently has *one* fire spell and one 'wildcard' spell. Why the hell is he even using a dragon sorcerer?

Assuming you need all those spells, and I'm not sure you do, you can get 10 spells by level 9. If you've ever played a sorcerer in 3.x, you'll understand when I say it's not the number of spells on your list, but the number of times that you cast them. You don't really need fire ball, fire bolt, fire wall, fire elemental, and meteor to be a fire sorcerer. But there's actually still room to get them later if you want. There's just more to dragons than breathing fire.

Not sure what planet you're living on, but last time I checked Clerics made good melee fighters.

This little green planet called Earth, if you'd care to join us sometime. Outside of, no, including divine strike, clerics are as good of melee fighters as a high elf. No class, just level, because of natural weapon proficiency and wizard cantrip. Cleric's **** also works outside of melee, with ranged weapons, and clerics fit well in melee because of their armor, not from attacking with weapons.

And your rebuttal is nonexistant. This isn't about a class feature being useful at all times, it is about the spell selection being built around that class feature. Because, in case yo haven't noticed, that class feature is supposed to be the main reason to play a dragon sorcerer in the first place. If you ignore it, then why even bother?

The first thing you build a sorcerer's spell selection around is metamagic. You get that at level 3, not level 6. You don't ignore the elemental boost. It informs what spells you want to cast. Just like a wizard's specialization, there's some spells you're encouraged to use, maybe one or two spells you pick up specifically to use a class feature with, and the rest of your class is the same as any other generalist.

Officer Joy

2017-01-03, 06:58 AM

I really want to contribute to this thread. But as I get to have spell point instead of slots not a lot of how I experience my sorcerer are goin to be relevant to a general discussion.

At lvl 6 I get to Nova crazy hard with a quick fireBall and a twin firebolt.

So I know I'm having fun. Even with a warlock and a wizard in the party.

Citan

2017-01-03, 07:17 AM

Because, in case yo haven't noticed, that class feature is supposed to be the main reason to play a dragon sorcerer in the first place. If you ignore it, then why even bother?
I just stopped here.
You obviously have ill intent, because you...
- Totally put aside all the demonstration that ALL casters usually use the same handful low level spells over a day, because it's what their friends count on...
- Tried to undermine my opinion by basically downsizing it to "it only works at lvl 20" which is wrong, I just took this assumption because it was in my opinion the easiest way to compare.
- Tried to deform my argument that Sorcerer has far enough choice, because he is not supposed to be able to do anything and everything in the first place. Especially since he is so good at making those spell known efficient.
- And try to make a very personal opinion of you pass as the absolute truth: NO, +CHA bonus to damage is absolutely not the main reason to play Sorcerer. First level bonus is also a great boon in general survivability, and having free fly at higher level is extremely good too.

I'm sorry, but I like constructive argument. You bring none. I won't bother answering next time (unless you take example on people like Zalabim who actually read, understand and bounce back off arguments). ;)

I know everyone loves the Diviner's portent, but their specialty is divination spells and there's no way the sorcerer can match the diviner's ability to use divination spells. If you just want to guarantee your spell works, you can't beat using a spell that allows no save at all like Wall of Force.

Sculpt spells allows blasting in situations where it's inappropriate for the sorcerer and empowered evocations applies to multiple element types giving the wizard a damage boost in situations where the dragon sorc's bonus wouldn't apply at all. It takes 2.5 empowered cone of colds to match the benefit of one maximized, or 3.5 if you're using upcasted fireballs because your element is fire, even ignoring the benefit of doing more damage in one turn. It helps if that you can still use empower on spells higher than 5th level.

A level 20 wizard with an amulet of health (or otherwise 18 Con) could manage 4 (on 5th level slots) in a day, with spending full HD healing, but they'd completely exhaust all of their HP. (10+8*19+6.5*20)=292 (1 free, 65+97.5+130)=292.5. If they got a full heal, doing a 5th one would probably KO them from full, or kill them outright if they barely kept consciousness on their own. 162 Max HP vs 25d12 (162.5). An evoker could live dangerously and go for just not instant death HP to stretch more uses of maximize.

The enchanter can also modify and erase memories.

The arcane ward is double level + Int, up to 45 HP, so it's clearly superior to +1 level HP before accounting for extra benefits gained casting abjuration spells.

All wizards have unique abilities in their specialty that a sorcerer cannot match. A lot of wizard specialties require a higher level to get those abilities than a sorcerer with metamagic though.

1. Arcane Ward: my bad, you are right. So this is indeed plain better than Draconic's +1HP per level. ;)
2. I was not referring to Divination spells, just the ability to influence rolls. Obviously a Sorcerer has very little divination spells IIRC, so no doubt there is no competition here (and Knowledge Cleric trumps Wizard here imo, because of class feature). ;)
3. Sculpt Spells is better than Careful for those AOE that deal damage on successful save, so it's a good point for Wizard. But whether it is an actual drawback or not heavily depends on party, considering the various ways one can avoid any damage or severely reduce it (Evasion, Shield Master, class feature damage resistance, Absorb Elements, etc). And Careful works on any spell, which is a great point for the Sorcerer.
4. Empowered works for any damage also, and on any spell (including ones such as Disintegrate). And it costs only 1 SP. And it works on any cast level. So in practice if you have an encounter-heavy day, you will easily surpass Wizard. Of course, if you have only one big fight in the day, Wizard is clearly the best since it is auto-maximum damage (and you could even afford to chain two or three if you are sure you can take a long rest after the fight).

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-03, 07:19 AM

I just stopped here.
You obviously have ill intent, because you

I just stopped here, because you decided to assume ill intent on my part.

Arnie82

2017-01-03, 08:31 AM

I just stopped here, because you decided to assume ill intent on my part.

I read the whole part in red. It was I'll intent. I wish I would of assumed it was I'll intent as well and ignored it.

On to your "burning straw." Do you understand what a back up option is? Maybe when you play a PAM fighter you don't bring a ranged option, but I'm willin to bet most do. As a dargon sorcerer you will have a main spell or 2 for damage of your element . 1 area and 1 single target. You also will have a cantrip. Anymore then that and it's almost a waste to bring. Does your PAM fighter in bring a pike and a glave?

You play dragon (fire) because you plan on using firebolt, scorching ray, and fireball. So at level 6, 2 of your 7 know spells are fire. You can have a cantrip be none fire and pick up another non fire spell later if you even need to. You could also have chromatic orb to cover everything.

Since you don't like level 20, how about 6.

Level 1: shield, and orb
Level 2: ray, hold person
Level 3: fireball, haste
That still leaves me with 1 spell. I still have a job to do. Kill groups with fireball, buff the melee character, and at least 1 debuff.

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-03, 08:58 AM

I read the whole part in red. It was I'll intent.

Yep, because snark is only allowed when it suits your own point of view. Otherwise it's "ill intent".

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder979/500x/67466979.jpg

On to your "burning straw." Do you understand what a back up option is?

Do you understand what a strawman is?

For the 4th time, I accept backup options are useful. What I said was that, if you choose to include them in any significant quantity (as opposed to just taking Chromatic Orb and leaving it at that) then you're either eating into your primary elemental spells or your utility spells. Which do you sacrifice?

As a dargon sorcerer you will have a main spell or 2 for damage of your element . 1 area and 1 single target.

Is that really it? You're playing a fire sorcerer and you want all of 2 fire spells. See, this comes back to my point (which everyone seems to ignore in favour of relentless strawmanning). If you're only taking a couple of relevent elemental spells, are you really getting enough out of the dragon feature to make it worthwhile?

Maybe when you play a PAM fighter you don't bring a ranged option, but I'm willin to bet most do.
...
Does your PAM fighter in bring a pike and a glave?

Why the fighter comparisons? Fighter weapons aren't remotely equivalent to spell slots. Fighters don't have to trade anything to bring a bow with them.

At least the many strawmen now have a false equivalence fallacy to keep them company.

JumboWheat01

2017-01-03, 09:00 AM

Let's not directly attack others and their "intent." All this kind of bickering is just going to get this thread closed. We're here to state OUR opinion on if the Sorcerer's bad rep is deserved, not tear at another's opinion.

Zalabim

2017-01-03, 09:09 AM

Is that really it? You're playing a fire sorcerer and you want all of 2 fire spells. See, this comes back to my point (which everyone seems to ignore in favour of relentless strawmanning). If you're only taking a couple of relevent elemental spells, are you really getting enough out of the dragon feature to make it worthwhile?

It's not the size of your spell list that counts, but how you use it. Or rather, it wouldn't matter if you only had one fire spell in your spells known if that's the only spell you ever cast. Knowing spells that don't deal fire damage has no effect on how much value you're getting out of Elemental Affinity. The only factor that matters is how many times you cast spells that deal fire damage. How many different spells do you really need to be able to say "I breathe fire". Dragons only get a single ability for it.

Arnie82

2017-01-03, 09:14 AM

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-03, 09:21 AM

Arnie82

2017-01-03, 09:34 AM

Yep, because snark is only allowed when it suits your own point of view. Otherwise it's "ill intent".

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder979/500x/67466979.jpg

Do you understand what a strawman is?

For the 4th time, I accept backup options are useful. What I said was that, if you choose to include them in any significant quantity (as opposed to just taking Chromatic Orb and leaving it at that) then you're either eating into your primary elemental spells or your utility spells. Which do you sacrifice?

Is that really it? You're playing a fire sorcerer and you want all of 2 fire spells. See, this comes back to my point (which everyone seems to ignore in favour of relentless strawmanning). If you're only taking a couple of relevent elemental spells, are you really getting enough out of the dragon feature to make it worthwhile?

Why the fighter comparisons? Fighter weapons aren't remotely equivalent to spell slots. Fighters don't have to trade anything to bring a bow with them.

At least the many strawmen now have a false equivalence fallacy to keep them company.

Every post you do, just supports Citan's point about I'll intent. I know what a strawman is, but I'm not sure you do. Your entire red post is one. Nice work.

How can you not understand that you don't need every spell to be fire to make use of it. If a life cleric is only preparing 2 healing spells is it a waste? NO! *EDITED, BY ME, FOR HARSHNESS * By your standard a life cleric should always have healing word, cure wounds, aid, mass healing word, revivify, prayer of healing at level 6.

Thanks

Why the fighter comparisons? You keep acting like bring an option that doesn't support your class abilities is bad. I guess a sorcerer should bring haste because it's not fire. It's such a load of crap. You complain on one part that they aren't versatile, then when someone shows you how to do it you complain that they have options that aren't perfect for the dragon.

Spellbreaker26

2017-01-03, 09:36 AM

Arnie82

2017-01-03, 09:44 AM

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-03, 09:47 AM

Every post you do, just supports Citan's point about I'll intent.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

I know what a strawman is, but I'm not sure you do. Your entire red post is one. Nice work.

You clearly have no clue what a strawman is. But at least your failed attempt at appearing intellectual has provided us with some amusement.

How can you not understand that you don't need every spell to be fire to make use of it.

Speaking of fire, I see you're burning yet another strawman. Let me know how that goes.

Get your head out of you butt and read.

Perhaps you'd care to follow your own advice before posting again? That way you might spare us another round of literary diarrhoea.

Why the fighter comparisons? You keep acting like bring an option that doesn't support your class abilities is bad.

No, I questioned the wisdom of taking options that don't support your class ability *in place* of options that do.

I guess a sorcerer should bring haste because it's not fire.

I assume that was supposed to read 'shouldn't'. But I guess having your head up your arse does make it difficult to type.

Either way, I congratulate you on managing to strawman for about the 30th time. At this point, I think it's fair to say that any ill intent is entirely deserved.

Let's say that you've got Haste and Fireball, but you also want to have a spell with a different element (for backup purposes). So, you want to take lightning bolt. What do you sacrifice - the haste or the fireball?

You complain on one part that they aren't versatile, then when someone shows you how to do it you complain that they have options that aren't perfect for the dragon.

Your above example only goes to illustrate the point I was making (both about sorcerers and about how many sodding strawman arguments you use).

EDIT: One last point - twice now you've accused me of ill intent, yet all I'd done up to this point was attack your (and Citan's) arguments. I was snarky at times, sure, but my snark was aimed at your arguments - not at you personally.

In contrast, you have both attacked me personally - not least by accusing me of malice for having a contrary opinion on a D&D forum. So if you're wondering why this stopped being a civil discussion, you'll find the answer in a mirror.

Arnie82

2017-01-03, 10:07 AM

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

You clearly have no clue what a strawman is. But at least your failed attempt at appearing intellectual has provided us with some amusement.

Speaking of fire, I see you're burning yet another strawman. Let me know how that goes.

Perhaps you'd care to follow your own advice before posting again? That way you might spare us another round of literary diarrhoea.

No, I questioned the wisdom of taking options that don't support your class ability *in place* of options that do.

I assume that was supposed to read 'shouldn't'. But I guess having your head up your arse does make it difficult to type.

Either way, I congratulate you on managing to strawman for about the 30th time. At this point, I think it's fair to say that any ill intent is entirely deserved.

Let's say that you've got Haste and Fireball, but you also want to have a spell with a different element (for backup purposes). So, you want to take lightning bolt. What do you sacrifice - the haste or the fireball?

Your above example only goes to illustrate the point I was making (both about sorcerers and about how many sodding strawman arguments you use).

OK so we have proved your cluless. Another na me for a strawman is a stick man. Nice work. By saying nice strawman you are actually doing it. Your bring nothing to the debate except deflecting to something else.

Funny how a few post before you stated that you thought you need a fire spell at each level. Nice work on double talking ... here in case you need a reminder ...
I was thinking that you'd want a fire spell for most/all spell levels, but it seems that's not as vital as I thought.

Your not taking options that don't support your class. Your talking options that give you versatility instead of being redundant. Taking burning hands with ray, and fireball at level 6 would be redundant.

In your example I refer to what I gave you of a level 6 character. Lightening bolt covers nothing that fire ball and Orb already cover. But for sake of argument you would drop orb because it fills the alternative damage spot. With 2 castings of level 3 spells it's a waste but you can easily do it and not gimp fireball or haste.

Nice to know I can "stawman" 30 times in 2 post! At the time you posted your reply I have 3 post in this thread. 1 that hand nothing to do with our debat, and 2 that did. Nice hyperbole.

Bugado25

2017-01-03, 10:12 AM

That's a really good point, actually. Thank you for explaining that.

I was thinking that you'd want a fire spell for most/all spell levels, but it seems that's not as vital as I thought.

One thing though - what about having different types of fire spell? e.g.:
- Single target (Fire Bolt)
- Multiple targets (Scorching Ray)
- Cone (Burning Hands)
- Burst (Fireball)
- Wall (Wall of Fire)
- Duration AoE (Incendiary Cloud)

Is there any merit to this?

By the time you get access to Incendiary Cloud (15th level) Burning Hands and Scorching Ray are almost useless.

1st and 2nd level spell slots won't deal any significant damage. By that level, these spell slots are better left for utility or recharging sorcerer points.

Just firebolt will deal 3d10(16,5) damage, while A 2nd level Scorching ray will deal only 6d6(21) damage. Not a significant difference. You can't twin Scorching Ray so for 2 targets, you better off using a Twinned Firebolt for half the cost of a Scorching Ray and doing more damage on each Target. Using Scorching Ray on 3 targets is not worth it as it won't deal any real damage.
Scorching Ray may have some value as a single target spell if up casted.

Fire ball is enought for your needs of AoE from 3rd-8th spell slots. No other spell will deal that much damage, but they may have other benefits (Fire Storm will deal less damage in a much bigger area. Incendiary Cloud and Wall of Flame will deal more damage with at least two rounds.

Let's see all Fire Spells on Sorcerer's Spell list and Value Then

1st Level
Chromatic Orb (Useless after 11th Level, as it will deal less damage than Firebolt. May be useful if you want it as a alternate type spell)
Burning Hands (I don't think of this as a good spell even at level 1, so I am not the best person to judge)

2nd Level
Aganazzar Scorcher (Same as Burning Hands)
Scorching Ray (Can Have Some value if up casted, as I said above. Its 1 spell I may keep After 11th level)

3rd Level
Fireball (2nd Fire Spell i would keep)
Melf' Minute Meteor ( Outclassed by Fireball)
Flame Arrows (Not even sure if this qualifies as a Fire Spell)

4th Level
Wall of Fire (Not bad, but not really necessary. 3rd Fire Spell)

5th Level
Immolation (IMO you better of upcasting Scorching Ray for 12d6 damage)

6th Level
Investiture of Flame (Bad Spell)

7th Level
Delayed Blast Fireball (Can be usefull. 4th pick)
Fire Storm ( Less damage than a fireball in a bigger area. Not very useful in my opinion but let's take it. 5th pick)

8th Level
Incendiary Cloud (Good Spell. 6th Pick)

9th Level
Meteor Shower (7th pick)

So, even taking every half decent fire spell on Sorcerer's Spell List, you take less than half of your spell choices. A more conservative player would only pick 3-5 fire spells, leaving 10-12 spells know for other things. You're not swiming on choices but it can be managed.

You don't really need other damage type spells. Take a couple of buff or control spells and another damage type cantrip and act as a buffer or controller for that combat.

jaappleton

2017-01-03, 10:13 AM

Yes, but you also need at any one point:

-The cantrip for your element
-A good single target spell for your element
-A good AoE for your element

Other elemental spells are just icing, not totally necessary. But, does each element have all of these at higher levels? The first is easy to get, but you also need both a level appropriate single target spell and a level appropriate AoE spell. (so either a good spell of your highest/second highest spell slot or one that scales well up to at least that point)

I really think a Fire Dragon Sorc can stop at 3 Fire spells for a majority of their career.

Firebolt (Cantrip)
Scorching Ray (Single Target)
Fireball (AoE)

Do you really want Immolate or Fire Storm taking up a slot? Those three should get you through most of your career.

My issue is that you have those by level 5. Which is good.

What's an Ice Dragon Sorc supposed to do?
Frostbite, maybe Ice Knife? Then you wait until 7th level for Ice Storm. Meaning you have your level 3 and 2 spell slots for... what? Upcasting Chromatic Orb? Really? Yes you can use them for buffs and debuffs but wouldn't you rather hurl an AoE at the skeleton horde?

Lightning Dragons wouldn't be so bad if Lightning & Thunder got looped in together like for Storm Sorcs. As it is, you get Shocking Grasp or Lightning Lure. Sorry, but on a d6, I won't want to be close enough to enemies to consider those.

Naanomi

2017-01-03, 10:16 AM

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-03, 10:45 AM

OK so we have proved your cluless.

It would probably help your case if you hadn't misspell both 'you're' and 'clueless'.

Funny how a few post before you stated that you thought you need a fire spell at each level. Nice work on double talking ... here in case you need a reminder ...
I was thinking that you'd want a fire spell for most/all spell levels, but it seems that's not as vital as I thought.

You seem to have ignored that I said "most/all", but whatever.

More importantly though, you somehow took that to mean that you couldn't take anything except fire spells - which wasn't what I said at all. Hence, I was entirely correct to refer to that line of thought as a strawman on your part.

Regardless, you do realise that I was conceding that point anyway, right? :smalltongue:

Your not taking options that don't support your class.

I believe I specified the dragon class ability (Elemental Affinity).

Your talking options that give you versatility instead of being redundant. Taking burning hands with ray, and fireball at level 6 would be redundant.

I thought I already conceded this point, but I guess I can concede it again if it makes you happy.

Actually, I don't even remember disagreeing with it in the first place. :smallconfused:

In your example I refer to what I gave you of a level 6 character. Lightening bolt covers nothing that fire ball and Orb already cover. But for sake of argument you would drop orb because it fills the alternative damage spot. With 2 castings of level 3 spells it's a waste but you can easily do it and not gimp fireball or haste.

Not the answer I was expecting, but fair enough.

Nice to know I can "stawman" 30 times in 2 post! At the time you posted your reply I have 3 post in this thread. 1 that hand nothing to do with our debat, and 2 that did. Nice hyperbole.

Thank you. I thought I'd cunningly hide my hyperbole where no one would ever look for it - the internet. :smallwink:

Arnie82

2017-01-03, 10:45 AM

Of course our theoretical wizard at the same 6th level we've been talking about has 9-10 prepared spells from a list of 16+(and ritual casting)

For the sake of completeness, what metamagic options does this 6th level dragon sorcerer have?

((And notes the conversation has again completely veered from wild sorcerer into being dragon sorcerer VS the world))

I think it veering from wild has a bit to do with how DM dependant the sub class is. If you have a DM that has you roll on the wild chart a lot it's a great class. If you don't roll much it's really sad.

As for my group, our DM has these rolls come up a lot. It's great fun in RP aspect of the game to wonder around with a feather beard.

Arnie82

2017-01-03, 10:49 AM

It would probably help your case if you hadn't misspell both 'you're' and 'clueless'.

You seem to have ignored that I said "most/all", but whatever.

More importantly though, you somehow took that to mean that you couldn't take anything except fire spells - which wasn't what I said at all. Hence, I was entirely correct to refer to that line of thought as a strawman on your part.

Regardless, you do realise that I was conceding that point anyway, right? :smalltongue:

I believe I specified the dragon class ability (Elemental Affinity).

I thought I already conceded this point, but I guess I can concede it again if it makes you happy.

Actually, I don't even remember disagreeing with it in the first place. :smallconfused:

Not the answer I was expecting, but fair enough.

Thank you. I thought I'd cunningly hide my hyperbole where no one would ever look for it - the internet. :smallwink:

So we agree that my stawman is hidden in your hyperbole on the Internet ... or your hyperbole is hidden in my strawman on the Internet ... :-)

Thank for pointing a proof reading critical fail.

Bugado25

2017-01-03, 10:57 AM

For the sake of completeness, what metamagic options does this 6th level dragon sorcerer have?

IMO, anything that is not distant or extended can be put to good use.

Careful: Make sure your ally pass that same for some area debuff. For damage spells, not that good.

Empowered: Make your fireballs hurt even more.

Heightened: I find this very costly, but very good to make that Hold person hit

Quickened: Lots of uses.

Subtle: A little more niche but can be very useful, especially out of combat.

Twinned: Good for twinning buff and low level sigle target spells. My personal favorite.

You would do fine using any of then, just make sure to take those that are useful for your spell choices.

I think the most default configuration for a Dragon Sorcerer Blaster would be Quicken + Twinned or Empowered.

((And notes the conversation has again completely veered from wild sorcerer into being dragon sorcerer VS the world))
It's hard to judge something so random. And it highly depends on how often your DM let you get your Tides of Chaos Again.

Arnie82

2017-01-03, 11:10 AM

For the sake of completeness, what metamagic options does this 6th level dragon sorcerer have?

Sorry I forgot to comment on this part. This is party dependant, but I found twin haste to be great. Granted, I had a great weapon fighter, rogue, and a paladin in my group.

I honestly could twin haste on the rogue and paladin and watch the encounter from the sidelineate vs big monsters.

I think quicken is the best all around combat
Metamagic. The action economy that it provides is great.

Subtle is a great out of combat use of metamagic.

If you want to just drop fireballs all day go for empowered.

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-03, 11:13 AM

So we agree that my stawman is hidden in your hyperbole on the Internet ... or your hyperbole is hidden in my strawman on the Internet ... :-)

I thought we just agreed that 30 was an unfairly large estimate for your strawmen.

I think you've still got enough for an adventuring party. :smallbiggrin:

I really think a Fire Dragon Sorc can stop at 3 Fire spells for a majority of their career.

Firebolt (Cantrip)
Scorching Ray (Single Target)
Fireball (AoE)

Do you think Scorching Ray is worth sacrificing a known spell for? I know it's stronger than Firebolt, but given that the latter is a Cantrip I'm wondering if you'd be better off taking your chances. I mean, it seems like you could get a similar effect by just Twinning Firebolt (which you can do 3 times per 2nd level spell slot).

On the other hand, Scorching Ray does give some really good burst damage.

Any thoughts?

Do you really want Immolate or Fire Storm taking up a slot? Those three should get you through most of your career.

What about Wall of Fire?

My issue is that you have those by level 5. Which is good.

What's an Ice Dragon Sorc supposed to do?
Frostbite, maybe Ice Knife? Then you wait until 7th level for Ice Storm. Meaning you have your level 3 and 2 spell slots for... what? Upcasting Chromatic Orb? Really? Yes you can use them for buffs and debuffs but wouldn't you rather hurl an AoE at the skeleton horde?

Lightning Dragons wouldn't be so bad if Lightning & Thunder got looped in together like for Storm Sorcs. As it is, you get Shocking Grasp or Lightning Lure. Sorry, but on a d6, I won't want to be close enough to enemies to consider those.

Yeah, I think non-fire sorcerers will have a harder time finding good elemental spells (especially early on).

Also, I'm a little disappointed that there's no Shadow Dragon option (which would benefit Necrotic damage).

Zalabim

2017-01-03, 11:39 AM

One thing though - what about having different types of fire spell? e.g.:
- Single target (Fire Bolt)
- Multiple targets (Scorching Ray)
While you technically can spread out Scorching Ray, in practice, there's little value in doing so. It may be replaceable by Fire Bolt later on, metamagic willing. It depends on how much you value the single-target-specific nova ability. Chain Lightning is what I'd consider a multiple-target damage ability.

On the other hand, Scorching Ray does give some really good burst damage.

Any thoughts?
Injecting this here. At level 11, a scorching ray from your 6th level slot shoots 7 rays for 14d6+5 (54) total damage. Fire Bolt is now dealing 3d10+5 (21.5) damage, so for half the sorcery points from your 6th level slot you could quicken and twin it for 3 shots among 2 targets, or 64.5 damage. Or you could quicken that Scorching Ray and Twin Fire Bolt and deal 97 damage among those two targets at much greater expense. Do you want to deal 75.5+21.5 (97) once and then 21.5 two more times, total 140, or 43+21.5 (64.5) three times, total 193.5? 50% more damage this turn, or 38% more damage during a 3 round encounter? It really depends on the situation. If you can Fireball the two targets instead, that's 65+65 (130), but also really warrants comparison of save for half vs attack rolls and using Empower.

Personally, I'd drop Scorching Ray at some point if you aren't adding Elemental Affinity's damage bonus to every ray individually.

- Cone (Burning Hands)
- Burst (Fireball)
Since you can cast a burst directly next to you it fills the cone role but is just very wide. Burning Hands is too short of a cone to keep around anyway, for my tastes.

- Wall (Wall of Fire)
- Duration AoE (Incendiary Cloud)

Wall of Fire and Incendiary Cloud are also both concentration-requiring, fire damage-dealing, area-denial spells. Wall of Fire is longer, but Incendiary Cloud covers more area. IC is too high of a level to be a mainstay spell anyway.

Is there any merit to this?

Fire Storm is shape-able, but also higher level and lower damage. It's too bad you haven't been able to shape your area spells to spare your allies since level 2, but that's a different kettle of fish.

All you really need is a cantrip for the element, an area attack for the element, and then a single target and concentration spell for the element are mostly gravy, but should be worthwhile. Trying to do even more damage to a single target may be overkill or a disabling or supporting spell may be more effective uses for your concentration.

The Dragon Sorc is the only subpath which gets its spell boost to cantrips, so even if you cast a non-element main spell, you might still use the feature by quickening to use an elemental cantrip with it. Storm Sorcerers are the really restricted ones. Wild Sorcerers don't have to care at all. Just remember which end should face the enemy.

-------------
A wild surge is ~80% of the time not a bad thing, so getting more uses of Tides of Chaos is a positive event overall. That's what the Wild Mage thrives on. If you place the unstable mage near to things you want to die, the positive/negative ratio for surges improves, and that's all the advice really possible.

jaappleton

2017-01-03, 11:57 AM

A very fair point regarding Wall of Fire. Even so, that's four spells. And it's not like you're picking one of them every time you level up. You could argue that Scorching Ray could go away, though it's multiple rays is better than a 'save or nothing' or 'one attack roll, hit or miss' kind of spell. So there's absolutely merits to keeping Scorching Ray your whole career. Especially if you multiclass or go Magic Initiate for Hex to really pile on the hits with it.

Addaran

2017-01-03, 12:25 PM

So most people seems to aggree that picking 6-9 fire spells offer very little beside a little bit of versatility compared to taking 2-3 fire spells.

However, it's fun to have lots of different fire spells for all occasion. Scorching Ray to kill a few kobolds while avoiding your friends, burning hand for a small aoe, fireball for bigger, incendiary cloud(?) for huge. Fireball for denial, even pyrotechnics to remove fire.

So i don't get why they didn't give the sorcerer one bonus spell from 1 to 5 spell lvl. You're already supposed to be picking 2-3 spells out of 15 for fire, so those 5 more spell kown will amound to only 2-3 more spells, while allowing the player to have his full toolbox of fire spells. And it fits really the metamagic concept of "modifying" magic. You can do flames, in 5-8 different ways!

After all the discusions and thinking, seems (fire) dragonic sorcerer isn't that bad. It just could be more fun without even making it that much more powerfull.
EE kinda saved ice too, making it closer to fire in term of options.

For the other elements though, there's really not enough choice. Be it with the cantrips or the leveled spell.

Rhedyn

2017-01-03, 12:50 PM

I only ever pick one (fireball). Firebolt twinned or quickened takes care of non aoe. 54 DPR from the cantrip and it only cost an effective 1st level slot or 2nd level slot.

That leaves 14 spells for non damage.

famousringo

2017-01-03, 12:55 PM

Yes, you can get by with three or so blast spells (single target, small AoE, big AoE), but appreciate that this represents an efficiency tax on sorcerer spellcasting.

That is, a caster who knows more blast spells will be able to get better results by tailoring the blast to hit more targets, target weaker saves/elements, or use an appropriate level spell rather than upscaling if compared against a caster with fewer blast spells.

Same goes for buffing, debuffing and general utility.

In any given situation, some spells will be useless, some will be useful, and a precious few will be optimal. I know other casters don't get to have every spell in the book prepared either, but knowing more spells means being more likely to have an optimal spell and less likely to only know useless spells for that situation. As a result, not only will your spellcasting be more likely to have an impact, but that impact will tend to be greater and/or use fewer resources.

Pex

2017-01-03, 01:11 PM

(My responses in red.)

Something I want to clarify is that I don't think dragon sorcerers are necessarily bad - just that they tend towards being one-dimensional.

My issue is that people seem to want them to take so many spells outside their element that I have to wonder why they're even playing a dragon sorcerer in the first place. I mean, if you're going to have all of 3 fire spells at lv20, is it really worth having a bonus on fire damage? It just seems that if you're not going to focus on one element, you'd be better off using one of the other sorcerer archetypes.

And, if you are set on using a dragon sorcerer, wouldn't you want more elemental spells for the sake of flavour? I mean, if a dragon sorcerer is using a near-identical list to a shadow sorcerer or storm sorcerer, or if a red dragon sorcerer has no more fire spells than a white dragon sorcerer, then I can't imagine they'll feel very . . . dragon-y. :smalltongue:

People just have different preferences.

I don't like Wild Mage Sorcerer at all because I don't like the randomness in the surges. I don't like the possibility of screwing myself or the party over with a harmful surge effect at the most inopportune time. I don't give a Hoover about any of the benefits. That randomness is a deal breaker for me, and I will never play a Wild Mage Sorcerer.

I like passive effects. I like the free Mage Armor and hit points of Dragon Sorcerer.

I don't need to do damage all the time. The +CH to damage is wonderful when it applies, but it's not a sin against nature for me that I'm not using a class feature in a particular combat. I just do something else at that moment and be happy. I'll have the fun in using the class feature another time, and the opportunities to use it show up often enough.

Personally I don't care about the dragon flavor text. Even in Pathfinder I don't care what the bloodline name is. I can come up with my own character background and personality. Roleplaying is on me. What I need from the game is fun mechanics. Dragon Sorcerer gives me that fun. Wild Mage Sorcerer does not.

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-03, 01:44 PM

So i don't get why they didn't give the sorcerer one bonus spell from 1 to 5 spell lvl. You're already supposed to be picking 2-3 spells out of 15 for fire, so those 5 more spell kown will amound to only 2-3 more spells, while allowing the player to have his full toolbox of fire spells. And it fits really the metamagic concept of "modifying" magic. You can do flames, in 5-8 different ways!

Yeah, I'm really surprised that the different sorcerer archetypes don't give themed bonus spells.

People just have different preferences.

I don't like Wild Mage Sorcerer at all because I don't like the randomness in the surges. I don't like the possibility of screwing myself or the party over with a harmful surge effect at the most inopportune time. I don't give a Hoover about any of the benefits. That randomness is a deal breaker for me, and I will never play a Wild Mage Sorcerer.

I know what you mean.

Although, what bugs me more about the Wild Sorcerer is that how often you get to use your class features is entirely up to the DM. :smallconfused:

I don't need to do damage all the time. The +CH to damage is wonderful when it applies, but it's not a sin against nature for me that I'm not using a class feature in a particular combat. I just do something else at that moment and be happy. I'll have the fun in using the class feature another time, and the opportunities to use it show up often enough.

Fair enough.

Personally I don't care about the dragon flavor text. Even in Pathfinder I don't care what the bloodline name is. I can come up with my own character background and personality. Roleplaying is on me. What I need from the game is fun mechanics. Dragon Sorcerer gives me that fun. Wild Mage Sorcerer does not.

If you don't mind me asking, what are your thoughts on the other sorcerer types?

ElLey

2017-01-03, 01:47 PM

Yep Sorcerer's are a good example of great idea, bad execution. This mainly comes down to the fact that they have too few metamagic known, and too few spells known, they also have too few sorcery points at low levels, but you could argue they make up for it at later levels.

I see a lot of people mentioning Sorcerers as being generalists. They're not generalists if they have too few spells known to take the hit and pick up a specialised spell like water walk or what have you (why those specialised spells are on their list with 15 spells known i don't know). But what hurts them more than that is the fact they get only two metamagic options for half their levelling, they should have been allowed to change them out on a long rest, or just get more metamagic's. They end up playing pretty damn focused in my opinion, not very generalist at all. It's sad really, that they lack the versatility so many say the have.

Sad state of affairs with the two phb subclasses, dragon sorcerer which doesn't have enough spells to role play any bloodline well, other than fire, or cold. I like the wild magic sorcerer, but that trashy dm fiat for surges is sad, taking away my player agency.

Just look at what the other full casters are getting d8 hit dice (wizard an exception), more spells known, magical secrets, armour proficiency, hit pool tank. Hell the fact that wizards can get more efficient use of spell slots with recovery is a slap in the face to the sorcerer.

Waazraath

2017-01-03, 04:43 PM

Sorry but I don't even agree with the statement that Wizard does always better than Sorcerer in their own specialization.
As I illustrated, a Diviner ensures his spell hits 3 times a day at most if he rolled favourably. On the upside, it's a sure thing. Sorcerer can do it at least 6 times a day. Sure, unless you are a Wild Magic Sorcerer stacking Bend Luck with Heightened, it is less reliable when compared to good Portent rolls, since it is "only" disadvantage, so an enemy could still be lucky both times. But it usually halves the chances of an enemy making the save. When stacked with Bend Luck for your biggest fight of the say, you are close to a sure-hit against many creatures.
(Confer to this table (http://andrewgelman.com/2014/07/12/dnd-5e-advantage-disadvantage-probability/) if you want to make some simulations yourself ;)).

An Evoker Wizard adds his INT to all Evocation spells, but can only maximize damage 1/long rest (twice, maybe thrice if he has someone along to heal/revive him just after). A Sorcerer can spend just 1 SP to reroll several die, greatly improving the general amount of damage.

Enchanter can freely twin his spells, but can still waste the spell on both counts depending on enemy roll.

Abjurer gets a 1/long rest THP that amounts to 25 HP maximum, which can sometimes be replenished for 2 or 4 THP usually. Until you get 18th level, it is strictly on par with Draconic's Extra HP. After that, it can be assimilated as a "1/turn 2 THP" if you take Shield as your free spell, which makes it slightly better in the long run when you count the accumulated prevention of damage. But it won't change anything as far as surviving a particular encounter is concerned, with enemies dealing several dozen points of damage per hit.

I fully agree however that Necromant, Bladesinger and Conjurer have no counterpart in Sorcerer. Transmuter is a particular one. ;)

Don't forget illusionist; especially with a discipline like illusion (but same goes for enchantment), it's very valuable to cast spells subtle; you can create a diversion, an 'omen', the cavalery, or what ever else you think might be handy, without it being obvious you're casting a spell. Especially in social encounters, but also sometimes in combat, that can totally spoil the effect. Having two images going with twin can be handy as well, and is something even an illusionist can't do.

SharkForce

2017-01-03, 04:53 PM

Zene

2017-01-03, 05:11 PM

Don't forget illusionist; especially with a discipline like illusion (but same goes for enchantment), it's very valuable to cast spells subtle; you can create a diversion, an 'omen', the cavalery, or what ever else you think might be handy, without it being obvious you're casting a spell. Especially in social encounters, but also sometimes in combat, that can totally spoil the effect.

Ooh, good call.

This might be a little off topic, but: An illusionist 17 / Sorc 3 with Subtle could wreak all kinds of havoc. The second metamagic choice would be a tough call though... only 3 sorc points in the pool max, so maybe instead of twin, extended? Distant?

(theorycrafting what I'd want to play if I ever do a 20th-level 1-shot)

once you get beyond a certain point, the illusionist is just hauling around a permanent major image and modifying it as needed anyways.

Takes your action every time you move it, and it's collecting disbelievers (people that have ever passed the investigation check never need to again). So it's a powerful option, but not always the way you want to go. IMO, the real power of a high-level illusionist is illusory reality (which only works once per spell I believe) and things like Seeming / Hallucinatory Terrain coupled with malleable illusions (which are both a larger area than Major Image would cover)

Pex

2017-01-03, 07:04 PM

Yeah, I'm really surprised that the different sorcerer archetypes don't give themed bonus spells.

I know what you mean.

Although, what bugs me more about the Wild Sorcerer is that how often you get to use your class features is entirely up to the DM. :smallconfused:

That I agree is the class's fault, a poor design. They should have just decided on an arbitrary percentage chance a surge should happen and have the player roll a die. It could even be as simple as "Whenever you attempt to cast a spell of 1st level or higher roll a d20. If you get anything except a Natural 1 the spell is cast normally. Otherwise, you get a surge."

If you don't mind me asking, what are your thoughts on the other sorcerer types?

I've only seen them briefly. They're not Core so I don't bother with them regularly. I would have rather Storm be more generic to constitute all the elemental damage types. You pick one element for the effects, but then at that point it's just Dragon with different class features. I don't mind the extra spells Favored Soul gets, but I would agree all Sorcerers should have had something like that. However, that's Pathfinder bias on my part where you get additional specific bloodline spells. I don't know Shadow at all.

Citan

2017-01-03, 07:09 PM

It's not the size of your spell list that counts, but how you use it. Or rather, it wouldn't matter if you only had one fire spell in your spells known if that's the only spell you ever cast. Knowing spells that don't deal fire damage has no effect on how much value you're getting out of Elemental Affinity. The only factor that matters is how many times you cast spells that deal fire damage. How many different spells do you really need to be able to say "I breathe fire". Dragons only get a single ability for it.

Thanks for this. It seems you are much better at explaining this point than I was. ;)

By the way...

EDIT: One last point - twice now you've accused me of ill intent, yet all I'd done up to this point was attack your (and Citan's) arguments. I was snarky at times, sure, but my snark was aimed at your arguments - not at you personally.

In contrast, you have both attacked me personally - not least by accusing me of malice for having a contrary opinion on a D&D forum. So if you're wondering why this stopped being a civil discussion, you'll find the answer in a mirror.
Lol, absolutely not. If you had stayed factual and polite in the "tone" of your writing, there would have been no problem. I did not "attack" your opinion, I criticized the fact you did not even try to have a constructive discussion, as was showed by your style of writing. That is a very different thing.
Snarking is antagonizing. Antagonizing is the best way to stop/prevent a constructive discussion. Whatever the true intent may have been, that is the simple truth. If you really want to discuss, don't snark in the first place unless you really know the one you are talking to.
You have been the one starting a fire, don't try to act like you're the fireman... XD
Although I don't care what you really think of this to be honest, there is no point pursuing this, it's uninteresting for everyone. Case closed for me at least. ;)

Back on topic...

That I agree is the class's fault, a poor design. They should have just decided on an arbitrary percentage chance a surge should happen and have the player roll a die. It could even be as simple as "Whenever you attempt to cast a spell of 1st level or higher roll a d20. If you get anything except a Natural 1 the spell is cast normally. Otherwise, you get a surge."

I would have rather an opposite view on this. I mean, if you made this a systematic roll or such based on pure luck, it could really veer off players.

Having this in hands of a DM may be annoying because you are indeed dependant on the DM, but on the positive side, it means any good DM can "activate" it whenever he feels it is worth it (because the situation calls for a bit of randomness, or you just did a crazy thing, or whatever), but more importantly he can tailor the frequency per campaign and per player. So he can minimize the impact for someone who dislike the Surge mechanic, or on the contrary make it happen as often as possible for a player who likes chaos.

To tell it in another way, if you are with a good DM, this can only lead to fun all around the table. And if you are with a bad DM (aka someone that doesn't care about his players having fun), then I'd daresay Wild Surge is really the least of your worries. ;)

With that said, whatever official was, a good DM would probably houserule as required for everyone to enjoy the game anyways... ^^

Rhedyn

2017-01-03, 09:07 PM

As a DM, I ban wild blood. I think it's awful and I wouldn't recharge tides at all or cause surges to trigger. Since that sucks, I wouldn't allow a player to play it.

LudicSavant

2017-01-03, 09:20 PM

Pex

2017-01-03, 11:41 PM

I would have rather an opposite view on this. I mean, if you made this a systematic roll or such based on pure luck, it could really veer off players.

Having this in hands of a DM may be annoying because you are indeed dependant on the DM, but on the positive side, it means any good DM can "activate" it whenever he feels it is worth it (because the situation calls for a bit of randomness, or you just did a crazy thing, or whatever), but more importantly he can tailor the frequency per campaign and per player. So he can minimize the impact for someone who dislike the Surge mechanic, or on the contrary make it happen as often as possible for a player who likes chaos.

To tell it in another way, if you are with a good DM, this can only lead to fun all around the table. And if you are with a bad DM (aka someone that doesn't care about his players having fun), then I'd daresay Wild Surge is really the least of your worries. ;)

With that said, whatever official was, a good DM would probably houserule as required for everyone to enjoy the game anyways... ^^

Given a player wants to play a Wild Mage he wants the randomness of chaos. That's the whole point, so there's no reason to minimize it for the player's sake. Too much of it naturally can ruin the aesthetics of the campaign so of course the chance of a surge has to be small. Also, "good DM". That's the rub. Who defines what makes a "good DM"? Given two DMs with different frequencies of surges who's to say which DM is better because of it? Should it mean that players must never play a Wild Mage until given proof a DM is "good"?

Citan

2017-01-04, 05:20 AM

As a DM, I ban wild blood. I think it's awful and I wouldn't recharge tides at all or cause surges to trigger. Since that sucks, I wouldn't allow a player to play it.
Could you please share the reasons why you think it sucks? I don't see...

Given a player wants to play a Wild Mage he wants the randomness of chaos. That's the whole point, so there's no reason to minimize it for the player's sake. Too much of it naturally can ruin the aesthetics of the campaign so of course the chance of a surge has to be small. Also, "good DM". That's the rub. Who defines what makes a "good DM"? Given two DMs with different frequencies of surges who's to say which DM is better because of it? Should it mean that players must never play a Wild Mage until given proof a DM is "good"?
Except it is not. There are players that may be interested in the abilities of the archetype even if it's only once per long rest because they are wary of their own luck, or they may like the seldom occasional Surge (like 2, 3 times most per long rest) but would totally dislike having it trigger every few casts.

Also, having the DM decide means a DM can avoid triggering a Surge if it would bring more risk of something bad happening than good because the Sorcerer is casting a spell in a dire situation.
On the opposite, he can use it to spring some rythm in a bland encounter, or even in RP situations.
Because he has all cards in hand, he has the best view on "when can a Wild Surge be fun"?
If it were sheer luck based on a roll percentile, then I think many less players would take the risk of actually playing one. Because you can't predict bad luck. And risking a (T)PK just because you happened to have bad luck on two rolls in a row (first to trigger surge, second on "self fireball" or "planted pot") when casting a spell that was gonna win the big fight of the day... THAT would be a dealbreaker, for me at least.
Especially since you don't get advantage on the rolls until level 14.

As for what is a good DM? In my opinion, it is simply someone that prioritizes fun over the table while staying as fair as possible both ways (no miraculous save if the players really rushed to their death, no deadly encounter "just because I wanted to", no enemy specially tailored to counter a specific tactic -unless of course the party relied solely on it for several encounters-, no miracle power on the BBEG that allows him to survive for no apparent reason when the party smartly cornered him, no DMPC doing all the great things, etc).

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-04, 05:30 AM

By the way...

Lol, absolutely not. If you had stayed factual and polite in the "tone" of your writing, there would have been no problem.

Your post was already snarky. If you don't want people to be snarky at you, don't be snarky at them.

I did not "attack" your opinion, I criticized the fact you did not even try to have a constructive discussion, as was showed by your style of writing. That is a very different thing.

I was fine with a constructive discussion. That was why I went through your individual points and stated why I disagreed with them, as opposed to just making a single snark at your whole post.

Also, once again, I guess you weren't interested in a constructive discussion either - as you got snarky long before I did.

Furthermore, you didn't merely criticise my opinion, you attacked my intent. If you honestly don't know the difference then that explains a great deal.

Snarking is antagonizing.

So why did you do it?

Antagonizing is the best way to stop/prevent a constructive discussion.

You really are a massive hypocrite. Again, if you don't want people to get snarky with you, don't snark at them first.

Whatever the true intent may have been, that is the simple truth. If you really want to discuss, don't snark in the first place unless you really know the one you are talking to.

lol

How about taking your own advice.

You have been the one starting a fire, don't try to act like you're the fireman... XD

For about the 4th time, you started the snark, I merely continued it.

Also, I'll note that the argument stopped a while ago, yet you felt inclined to come and pour some more petrol on it.

You don't give the impression of someone looking for a constructive discussion.

Although I don't care what you really think of this to be honest, there is no point pursuing this, it's uninteresting for everyone. Case closed for me at least. ;)

So, what we have here is someone who doesn't care about this . . . yet feels obliged to make an antagonistic post about it anyway.

Frankly, even leaving aside the fact that you were snarky first, your constant winging about someone else being snarky is pathetic.

Don't start a snark war that you cannot finish.

Waazraath

2017-01-04, 06:52 AM

Don't start a snark war that you cannot finish.

Dude, please cut it out. Nobody started a 'snark war'. This contributes nothing to an otherwise interesting thread, nor does posting silly Hitler-memes.

Arnie82

2017-01-04, 06:52 AM

jaappleton

2017-01-04, 06:59 AM

Do we really need to revisit the snark?

Back on topic
Has anyone had much experience with the storm sorcerer? Every time I plan on playing on I just end up back at dragon. My thought on them is to use really short range spells with them but even with bonus action fly I just feel like I'm asking to be pummeled.

I WANT to like the Storm sorc but for thematic purposes, I want a lightning / thunder cantrip. And the two available are touch / pulls a target next to you. Both things I don't want to be doing as a d6 HD class.

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-04, 07:04 AM

Dude, please cut it out. Nobody started a 'snark war'. This contributes nothing to an otherwise interesting thread, nor does posting silly Hitler-memes.

Nor does ignoring someone's arguments and attacking their motives instead. I notice that you didn't feel the need to call other posters out on that.

Nor does restarting an argument that had finished, yet you didn't call the person out on that either.

Sorry, but I'm not prepared to let someone's personal attacks against me and blatant hypocrisy go unchallenged.

Has anyone had much experience with the storm sorcerer? Every time I plan on playing on I just end up back at dragon. My thought on them is to use really short range spells with them but even with bonus action fly I just feel like I'm asking to be pummeled.

The issue for me is that I'd want to use them for Wind Soul . . . but they don't get that until lv18.

I think I'd rather go with Shadow Sorcerer and get some fun stuff early.

Citan

2017-01-04, 07:26 AM

So you were actually looking for a constructive discussion?
Then I sincerely apologize. This was certainly not the impression given though...

My opinion: Something being passive is not inherently a bad thing. As for when my elemental damage spells are not optimal to use at a particular time, I just do something else and don't resent it.

So, you'd have no issues exploring a volcano lair (full of creatures immune to fire) with fire spells as your only offence?

It is prudent for any sorcerer player to have more offense spells than just their favored element. A character who doesn't is a player error problem not a class problem. For one particular adventure exploring a volcano lair, I just do something else and not resent it. If the entire campaign is about the volcano lair and other fire-based areas, then the DM should say so in the first place and tell players fire-based sorcerers just won't work but cold-based ones will be quite effective for damage attacks.

So, I ask again, what are you giving up in exchange? Are you making a pure blaster with virtually no utility spells? Or are you sacrificing fire spells and getting very little mileage out of your dragon bonus?

Yep, it's entirely the player's fault that the sorcerer is allowed barely any spells and then further boxed in by a feature that only rewards them if they stick with a single element.

Whereupon the player finds out that fire is the only element that gets a good representation. Look in the PHB and tell me which 2nd and 3rd level Cold spells you think this player should pick.
You ignored his opinion and mocked it instead because it was contradicting yours ("2 spells can never be enough"), instead of just trying to understand the point or asking more details, or just take 2 mn to go look into the PHB and Elemental Evil yourself, or trying to explain why in your opinion having many spells of the same damage type was really necessary. You also ignored some other posters than pointed out how to make do well with only a few spells.
I really thought you at least took the time to look at it and think out of your own box (such as how to use Wall of Fire to create your own shape, or why Burning Hands is not such a good idea since it requires to be close) before asking detailed explanations such as the ones Arnie82 and Zalabim kindly provided.

That is why I answered in such a way. No more, no less. If you were just honestly ignorant and directly asking others instead of looking by yourself because you start at the game or just prefer direct external opinion or whatever reason, then I apologize, because my impression of you being condescendant for the sake of ego was out of place indeed. And I recognize I don't wield my gloves in those cases. ;)

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-04, 07:39 AM

You ignored his opinion and mocked it instead because it was contradicting yours

I didn't mock it, I merely questioned how the limitation of sorcerer spells known was the fault of the player as opposed to the class.

instead of just trying to understand the point or asking more details

Your bias is showing.

You are assuming that because I disagreed with him, the fault must be mine.

or just take 2 mn to go look into the PHB and Elemental Evil yourself.

Why EE? The Dragon Sorcerer is a core class. it is not unreasonable to expect that each element will have a good representation in core.

What's more, even when you included EE, you still couldn't find a 3rd level spell for sorcerers and two of the ones you suggested for 2nd level spells were actually 1st level ones.

You also ignored some other posters than pointed out how to make do well with only a few spells.

You yourself are ignoring that disagreeing with someone is not the same as ignoring them.

I really thought you at least took the time to look at it and think out of your own box before asking detailed explanations such as the ones Arnie82 and Zalabim kindly provided like you were a judge.

Is this even English?

Also, I've yet to see evidence of you thinking outside your own box. All you've done is:
- Use strawmen to establish your own conclusions.
- Smugly back up people who agree with you.
- Dismiss me for not automatically agreeing with you or people with the same opinions as you.
- Be snarky with me and then get annoyed when I was snarky back.
- Give up arguing and accuse me of "ill intent" for disagreeing with you.
- Wait until an argument finishes and then pour gasoline onto it to restart it, all the while claiming to be completely innocent of any involvement.
- Continue arguing points that have already been resolved.

Get off your sodding high horse.

That is why I answered in such a way. No more, no less. ;)

So you decided "Wow, this Pex chap is being far too reasonable and polite. Let me show him how it's done."

Arnie82

2017-01-04, 07:49 AM

I didn't mock it, I merely questioned how the limitation of sorcerer spells known was the fault of the player as opposed to the class.

Your bias is showing.

You are assuming that because I disagreed with him, the fault must be mine.

Why EE? The Dragon Sorcerer is a core class. it is not unreasonable to expect that each element will have a good representation in core.

What's more, even when you included EE, you still couldn't find a 3rd level spell for sorcerers and two of the ones you suggested for 2nd level spells were actually 1st level ones.

You yourself are ignoring that disagreeing with someone is not the same as ignoring them.

Is this even English?

Also, I've yet to see evidence of you thinking outside your own box. All you've done is:
- Use strawmen to establish your own conclusions.
- Smugly back up people who agree with you.
- Dismiss me for not automatically agreeing with you or people with the same opinions as you.
- Be snarky with me and then get annoyed when I was snarky back.
- Give up arguing and accuse me of "ill intent" for disagreeing with you.
- Wait until an argument finishes and then pour gasoline onto it to restart it, all the while claiming to be completely innocent of any involvement.
- Continue arguing points that have already been resolved.

Get off your sodding high horse.

So you decided "Wow, this Pex chap is being far too reasonable and polite. Let me show him how it's done."

Back to strawman?

Waazraath

2017-01-04, 08:49 AM

Why the Sorcerer gets a bad rap:

1) With only up to 15 spells known at level 20, they have considerably less spell options available at any given time than a Wizard, Bard, Cleric, Druid or even Paladin (For example, a level 9 paladin will have about 20 spells prepared, compared to a Sorcerer's effective 10. A level 20 paladin has 35+ spells prepared compared to a Sorcerer's effective 15. A wizard has more, since they effectively have every ritual in their spellbook at their beck and call). Learning only 5 spells over 11 levels (9-20) is... rough. Moreover, they cannot alter their spell lists from day to day.
2) Cannot cast spells as rituals, unlike the Bard, Cleric, Druid, Warlock, or especially Wizard (who doesn't even need to prepare them).
3) Less resource longevity than other caster classes, such as the Wizard or Druid. Metamagic firepower and spell recovery compete with each other. Rituals just aren't even a thing for you.
4) Generally lower out-of-combat or prepared-combat contribution than competitors such as Wizards or Druids (due to lack of rituals, preparation, Goodberry-like options, etc).
5) Smaller, weaker spell list compared to competitors. According to the designers, the reasoning for their spell list was based on flavor rather than mechanical concerns (flavor which many players would disagree with. For example, a Dragon Sorcerer drinking fire and spitting it back at you, for example, seems very thematic... but only Druids, Rangers, and Wizards can cast the spell that does that).
6) Metamagic options aren't as powerful as they first appear (for example, Quicken spell does not let you cast two spells in a round, just a spell and a cantrip).
7) Storm Sorcerer got nerfed from the UA version. Wild Magic can hurt you in terms of IP proofing. Dragon Sorcerer's viable color options are limited mostly to Fire. The rest are playtest material.

If this is why the sorcerer has a bad rap, it explains also why it is thouroughly undeserved. Let's go past these points.

1) Correct about wizard, druid and cleric. The paladin really isn't a good example imo. You ignore the 6 cantrips a sorcerer has, the pally has 0. You talk about 'spell options', but ignore that the 'spell options' of the paladin are much fewer, because its spell list consists of spells that are quite a like, and cover a few themes (smiting, healing, buffing). A paladin doen't have illusions, barely enchantment, barely area damage, etc. A sorcerer can have a lot of different kind of spells, even with fewer spells known. And can use spells in different ways, with metamagic. Valor bard only has 7 more spells, and 2 less cantrips. Warlock has 4 more spells, 2 less cantrips. The difference is very small, expecially since the last two can't alter their lists either.

2) Warlock isn't, though you can use a class option to become one (but that has an opportunity cost). Correct for the rest, and this is a shame. Though on the other hand, with the few spells known a sorcerer has anyway, probably very few utility rituals would be chosen anyway, so it doesn't bother me that much.

3) Sorcerer might not have the recovery of a druid or wizard, but they can sack spells for sorcery points, that can be used for (twinned or quickened) cantrips if rescources are getting low. A double firebolt with cha to damage is quite good.

4) Subtle can have great out of combat usage, that no class can replicate (with for example enchantments / illusions). 15 spells and 6 cantrips is further enough to cover also out of combat situations.

5) Incorrect. The spell list is aprox just as long as that of the bard, cleric and druid, much longer than the warlock's. Weaker: sorcerer has at each and every leverl very powerful spells; from sleep and shield at level 1, to fireball, haste, major image and hypnotic pattern at 3, to animate objects, dominate person and hold monster at 5, to wish at 9. I can number another for each of those levels, and for the other ones. Where is the 'weak'?

6) Metamagic is insanely powerful. Disadvantages on saving throws? Double a spell? And I don't know how they appear to you, but quicken is good enough as it is. It's not just a spell and a cantrip, it can also be any other action and a quickened spell. Just not 2 normal spells in the same turn, and that's just because it would otherwise be grosely overpowered. They learned from 3rd edition, fortunately.

7) Storm sorcerer: who care's that its nerved compared to UA? A lot of things are. It has strong offensive and defensive abilities, my only problem with it, is that some only work very short range (10ft). You don't want to be that close, often, as a sorcerer. Very nice though for a multiclass with tempest cleric.
Wild magic is weird, I don't like the chance to FB my own party at lvl 1, nor the DM dependency.
I haven't seen draconic sorcerers yet that aren't fire, but I think there are plenty of cold and lighting spells arount to make those possible as well. Maybe even acid; the ability to add to damage is lvl6, and at lvl 7 you can get vitrolic sphere. Works really well with the elemental adept feat (cause 1's that become 2's is strong for a spell that does 15d4). Too bad Melf's acid arrow isn't on the list though =/

To summarize: I think you make a few valid points (no rituals, no recovery, wildmage bad for IP proofing, etc.). But 3 of them include 'sorcerer's don't have rituals' (2, 3, 4). Others (the important ones imo) I really don't see (weak and short spell list, metamagic not powerful, out of combat utility). Though sorcerer of course has a few weak points, which you point out, every class has them. And they are more then compensated for those with his strenghts.

I notice that you didn't feel the need to call other posters out on that.

No. I didn't. I don't see any other poster behave in a way that might get this thread closed. Which would be a shame.

JumboWheat01

2017-01-04, 09:03 AM

Not so nice now, either take your now painful arguments to personal messaging or BLOODY SHUT UP.

Now, semi-on-topic, the Sorcerer UA is not far away now, what would we want in a Bloodline to help the Sorcerer? A Fey-line that boosts CC options to help break away from the idea of Sorcerer's being Strikers? Or maybe just an expanded spell list?

Naanomi

2017-01-04, 09:20 AM

I'd like to see a favored soul with design principles more like the published options... I'd like to see something more broadly 'elemental/inner planes' tied... but not sure how to implement without stepping on dragon's toes.

Fey wouldn't be bad as an illusionist/enchanter to best utilize subtle spell; something necromantic wouldn't be bad either. Actually, diviner analog might also be nice... the 'born with the gift of prophecy' thing is a pretty common idea

Something bestial/shapechangy might also be fun. In 3.5 I played an alienist sorcerer that was fun... a far realm tied subclass that can spend sorcery points to summon stuff? Also, as a Charisma class, the Sorcerer seems to be a good place to try a 'warlord mage' with inspiration based abilities... maybe this is where favored soul goes?

Maybe also a good place for a 'Magic savant' with a natural connection to the weave... detect magic always on, good at dispels and counters, maybe the classic 'can still cast in anti-magic areas'

Millstone85

2017-01-04, 10:49 AM

I guess what I would like to see is "Sorcerous Origin: Ancestral Pact". You are the descendant of a warlock and the eerie power they were imbued with is now resurging in you. It could work in a way similar to the favored soul UA, where this is actually several new subclasses of sorcerer, one for each subclass of warlock. And there could be a feature called "Sins of the Father".

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-04, 11:19 AM

Back to strawman?

I yield to your vast experience on the subject. :smallwink:

No. I didn't. I don't see any other poster behave in a way that might get this thread closed. Which would be a shame.

Then I suggest taking your blinders off.

And in terms of dropping this argument, I've already dropped it once. I'm happy to do so again, but if people post further attacks or insults, no, I'm not prepared to let that slide. Nor will I accept that every snipe and ad hominem aimed at me were perfectly acceptable, and it was only my words that crossed the line.

So, are we prepared to put this behind us and move on? Or shall we trade snide comments and insults a while longer?

On topic:

Fey wouldn't be bad as an illusionist/enchanter to best utilize subtle spell; something necromantic wouldn't be bad either. Actually, diviner analog might also be nice... the 'born with the gift of prophecy' thing is a pretty common idea

As a question, do you think sorcerers should specialise in that way? I always thought that specialising in a spell school was more a wizard thing. Then again, I thought the same about metamagic. :smalltongue:

Something bestial/shapechangy might also be fun. In 3.5 I played an alienist sorcerer that was fun... a far realm tied subclass that can spend sorcery points to summon stuff?

I'd really love to see something like that - especially with regard to shapechanging. The only issue is what a sorcerer would change into. Beasts seem a bit too natural (and would be treading on the druid's toes). Dragons are probably out, too (if only to stop the Dragon Sorcerer glaring at you :smallbiggrin:). Maybe elementals?

Arnie82

2017-01-04, 11:25 AM

I yield to your vast experience on the subject. :smallwink:

On topic:

As a question, do you think sorcerers should specialise in that way? I always thought that specialising in a spell school was more a wizard thing. Then again, I thought the same about metamagic. :smalltongue:

You mention it a lot so I thought you were the expert.

I do agree it would feel a bit off for sorcerers to specialize in that way. Then again I have always thought that it's weird that sorcerers are charisma casters.

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-04, 11:29 AM

I do agree it would feel a bit off for sorcerers to specialize in that way. Then I have always get its weird that sorcerers are charisma casters.

Out of interest, which stat would you have Sorcerers use instead?

Or do you think their casting should be based on something else entirely?

Arnie82

2017-01-04, 11:32 AM

Out of interest, which stat would you have Sorcerers use instead?

Or do you think their casting should be based on something else entirely?

I always got the impression it's pure power. Almost being physically able to cast it. Strength lines up with that, but it's still awkward. It should feel less like casting and more just doing. I think the warlock fits how I imagine it working well, but it uses charisma as well.

Edit to add:

The alternative spell points in the DMG would of been a great way to sperate how a wizard and sorcerer works. Maybe have a small spell list but know them all and just use points to cast. Again, I'm still not sure what to use other then charisma, I just know it doesn't "feel" right.

Naanomi

2017-01-04, 11:37 AM

As a question, do you think sorcerers should specialise in that way? I always thought that specialising in a spell school was more a wizard thing. Then again, I thought the same about Metamagic.
It shouldn't be a perfect mapping to wizard schools, but in a way they have to specialize in some way... specializing in mind control, not enchantment + illusion per se... specializing in time or space magic, not divination per se...

I'd really love to see something like that - especially with regard to shapechanging. The only issue is what a sorcerer would change into. Beasts seem a bit too natural (and would be treading on the druid's toes). Dragons are probably out, too (if only to stop the Dragon Sorcerer glaring at you :smallbiggrin:). Maybe elementals?
I was thinking more 'lycanthropic partial shapechange for benefits' more than Druidic wildshape

Dr. Cliché

2017-01-04, 11:41 AM

I always got the impression it's pure power. Almost being physically able to cast it. Strength lines up with that, but it's still awkward. It should feel like like casting and more just doing. I think the warlock fits how I imagine it working well, but it uses charisma as well.

Strength would be interesting, though I think you'd have to make some other changes to get it to work (as it would imply a more front-line caster).

I'm not sure about sorcerers getting 'bulkier' as they get more powerful, but that's more personal preference.

I've wondered before about Sorcerers using Constitution as their casting stat (since their magic tends to be based on bloodlines and such), though that would also mean they could ignore virtually every other stat. :smalltongue:

It shouldn't be a perfect mapping to wizard schools, but in a way they have to specialize in some way... specializing in mind control, not enchantment + illusion per se... specializing in time or space magic, not divination per se...

Ah, I see.

I was thinking more 'lycanthropic partial shapechange for benefits' more than Druidic wildshape

I would never object to a Magic Sorcerer Werewolf. Especially to his face. :smallbiggrin:

Arnie82

2017-01-04, 12:33 PM

Strength would be interesting, though I think you'd have to make some other changes to get it to work (as it would imply a more front-line caster).

I'm not sure about sorcerers getting 'bulkier' as they get more powerful, but that's more personal preference.

I've wondered before about Sorcerers using Constitution as their casting stat (since their magic tends to be based on bloodlines and such), though that would also mean they could ignore virtually every other stat. :smalltongue:

I agree that Con would be better then strength except for very much SAD. You could off set that by using other starts for small benifits.

Example Dragon: your elemental bonus damage is based on your strength, as well as your AC(instead of dex) for the scales. Now you can't out right dump strength. If you keep the scales as dex, you would have a class that has 2 secondary stats, making it a little more MAD.

Infact you could make each subclass a different secondary stat. Having at least 1 secondary stat be charisma to cover all the traditional cha sorcerers.

SharkForce

2017-01-04, 12:42 PM

If this is why the sorcerer has a bad rap, it explains also why it is thouroughly undeserved. Let's go past these points.

1) Correct about wizard, druid and cleric. The paladin really isn't a good example imo. You ignore the 6 cantrips a sorcerer has, the pally has 0. You talk about 'spell options', but ignore that the 'spell options' of the paladin are much fewer, because its spell list consists of spells that are quite a like, and cover a few themes (smiting, healing, buffing). A paladin doen't have illusions, barely enchantment, barely area damage, etc. A sorcerer can have a lot of different kind of spells, even with fewer spells known. And can use spells in different ways, with metamagic. Valor bard only has 7 more spells, and 2 less cantrips. Warlock has 4 more spells, 2 less cantrips. The difference is very small, expecially since the last two can't alter their lists either.

2) Warlock isn't, though you can use a class option to become one (but that has an opportunity cost). Correct for the rest, and this is a shame. Though on the other hand, with the few spells known a sorcerer has anyway, probably very few utility rituals would be chosen anyway, so it doesn't bother me that much.

3) Sorcerer might not have the recovery of a druid or wizard, but they can sack spells for sorcery points, that can be used for (twinned or quickened) cantrips if rescources are getting low. A double firebolt with cha to damage is quite good.

4) Subtle can have great out of combat usage, that no class can replicate (with for example enchantments / illusions). 15 spells and 6 cantrips is further enough to cover also out of combat situations.

5) Incorrect. The spell list is aprox just as long as that of the bard, cleric and druid, much longer than the warlock's. Weaker: sorcerer has at each and every leverl very powerful spells; from sleep and shield at level 1, to fireball, haste, major image and hypnotic pattern at 3, to animate objects, dominate person and hold monster at 5, to wish at 9. I can number another for each of those levels, and for the other ones. Where is the 'weak'?

6) Metamagic is insanely powerful. Disadvantages on saving throws? Double a spell? And I don't know how they appear to you, but quicken is good enough as it is. It's not just a spell and a cantrip, it can also be any other action and a quickened spell. Just not 2 normal spells in the same turn, and that's just because it would otherwise be grosely overpowered. They learned from 3rd edition, fortunately.

7) Storm sorcerer: who care's that its nerved compared to UA? A lot of things are. It has strong offensive and defensive abilities, my only problem with it, is that some only work very short range (10ft). You don't want to be that close, often, as a sorcerer. Very nice though for a multiclass with tempest cleric.
Wild magic is weird, I don't like the chance to FB my own party at lvl 1, nor the DM dependency.
I haven't seen draconic sorcerers yet that aren't fire, but I think there are plenty of cold and lighting spells arount to make those possible as well. Maybe even acid; the ability to add to damage is lvl6, and at lvl 7 you can get vitrolic sphere. Works really well with the elemental adept feat (cause 1's that become 2's is strong for a spell that does 15d4). Too bad Melf's acid arrow isn't on the list though =/

To summarize: I think you make a few valid points (no rituals, no recovery, wildmage bad for IP proofing, etc.). But 3 of them include 'sorcerer's don't have rituals' (2, 3, 4). Others (the important ones imo) I really don't see (weak and short spell list, metamagic not powerful, out of combat utility). Though sorcerer of course has a few weak points, which you point out, every class has them. And they are more then compensated for those with his strenghts.

No. I didn't. I don't see any other poster behave in a way that might get this thread closed. Which would be a shame.

1) paladins don't need cantrips because attacking things with a weapon is basically like having eldritch blast as a cantrip. it's very reliable, almost nothing is resistant or immune to it. the attack action is versatile enough to be equivalent to at least 2-3 cantrips (you've got grappling, shoving, and damage options, potentially more if the DM agrees to it). likewise, warlock eldritch blast is probably equivalent to having 2 cantrips for any other caster, because it is so reliable. you don't need a fire cantrip and a backup option for when fire doesn't work, you have eldritch blast. and then they get invocations, several of which are like cantrips on steroids. valor bard difference is huge, even if we count cantrips as being equal to spells (which we shouldn't) it's about a 25% increase. it's nearly a 50% increase if you don't count cantrips.

2) it is a cost for warlocks, but it isn't a major cost unless your character concept requires a different path for fluff reasons. and at least it is internal to the warlock, and doesn't rely on optional rules. also, it is the best ritual casting feature in the game, even better than wizard, which is pretty danged impressive.

3) cantrips are what you do when you don't want to do something big. if you need to do something big, you don't sacrifice spell slots to convert to SP so that you can then use cantrips (and also if you do, you can't use quicken, because you already blew your bonus action converting spell slots to SP), you use your spell slots. there's a reason the very best damage cantrip in the game supported by buffs is *still* not quite as good damage as a fighter with a bow using no daily resources at all.

4) 15 spells and 6 cantrips? well, if we're only talking about level 20 characters and ignoring everything else, i would like to present the wizard 17/sorcerer 3 multiclass build. it also can use subtle to dominate social encounters, and unlike your sorcerer, it actually *does* have the spell selection to cover in and out of combat situations reliably. remember above, that "default list" of spells a sorcerer should know? it was taking 9 spells plus some cantrips just to cover the most basic functionality in combat. no buffs, only one debuff per attribute (so no options on what status effects the debuffs will cover), and zero utility. by the time the sorcerer actually *has* room for spells to cover social situations well in addition to covering combat properly, the campaign is probably almost over. of course, you *can* just completely ditch being able to cover combat well, but that's just showing the problems sorcerers encounter again.

5) "weak" is "doesn't get wall of force or forcecage" and "doesn't get true polymorph" and "doesn't get any summoning spells at all" and "doesn't get a number of useful utility spells like fabricate, and wouldn't have the spells known to be able to take them if you could" and so on. as to the length of the spell list, bards get everything as a spell list for several of their spells, and druids and clerics get to add domain spells and can actually access their entire spell list on a daily basis. it may not be longer in theory, but it is much longer in practice, because the druid can actually afford to pick up anything needed when it is needed. in particular, they can especially afford to do that with higher level spells... a sorcerer needs to carefully limit their higher level spells known because otherwise they won't have anything to do with their lower level spell slots. a druid can just go right on ahead and pick up earthquake if expecting to lay siege to a castle tomorrow. a sorcerer can't afford to do that unless expecting to siege a castle on a regular basis. of course, much of the time the druid will actually be using a much smaller core of spells... but the difference is that the druid has access to that core plus a bunch of other options, while the sorcerer has only the core options, and maybe not even that if you're not pretty high level.

6) metamagic is powerful. so are the things everyone else gets when they don't play a sorcerer. but sorcerer pretty much *only* gets metamagic (and anyone else can steal the best part of metamagic with only a 3 level dip) while other classes get *many* cool and interesting and powerful things. i don't think anyone has argued that sorcerers get nothing. we just think they're paying too much for the things they get.

7) storm sorcerer lost the main argument for being a storm sorcerer unless you expect to spend a lot of time at level 18+. wild magic is potentially strong, but can get utterly wrecked by a DM who doesn't go out of their way to make it work with you. dragon basically has one compelling element. all of them tend to do relatively little to change your character. their archetypes are pretty low-impact. i mean, if i'm playing a light cleric and you're playing a war cleric, even though we're the same class it's pretty different. if you're a battlemaster and i'm a champion, we're both fighters, but both pretty different. if i'm a wild sorcerer and you're a draconic sorcerer... your direct damage spells (all 2 or 3 of them) might be different elements from mine. unless you chose fire, in which case odds are good we both picked up 1-2 fire spells (fireball most likely being one) and something else off-element "just in case", and otherwise we're probably pretty similar for the most part. and honestly, even if you didn't pick fair, it's decent odds that your off-element spell is a fire spell, meaning even less of a difference. the archetypes are all pretty lackluster in terms of changing how you play the character, and apart from those archetypes, sorcerers really only even *have* two class abilities: metamagic and spellcasting. and the spellcasting one is pretty weak for a full caster.