questions on: rogue assassin and adventuring day

[visitor]

Hi: two questions, just wondering how others usually run it.

First:
For a Rogue Assassin, who has surprised his enemy: are ALL his attacks during his turn critical hits (those that land)? The PHB reads like yes; so a dual wielding rogue could critical with his main, and also critical with the offhand bonus action attack? And so extrapolating, you could have a multiclassed assassin action surging for ridiculous amounts of damage?


Second:
Is the "adventuring day" more figurative or literal? If I have planned a short scenario for low level characters that spans one "adventuring day" in terms of encounters/short rests/xp, but its an outdoor setting and requires a day or so of travel, would that overnight period constitute a "long rest"? Is it intended to? The PHB reads like it is intended to be, as taking watch for 2 hours is still restful enough. Or do you consider camping on an adventure too stressful to be truly restful?

Thanks

[Solunaris]

For your first question, we need only look at the wording of the Assassinate ability. It is fairly clear that if the rogue strikes anything surprised it is an automatic critical hit, no matter how many strikes the rogue gets. If he manages to his 3 things in a single round, that is three critical hits.

Secondly, according to the player's handbook the players can take a long rest as long as they budget 8 hours of downtime. This downtime need not be in a safe environment provided it isn't interrupted by 1 hour of strenuous activity or more than 2 hours of keeping watch per player. If the "adventuring day" you have planned with span more than one in-game day and nothing keeps the players from getting an 8 hour rest in at night then they should get the benefits of a long rest. Of course, if they get attacked or are otherwise forced to break camp before the 8 hours are over and kept from resting for over an hour they'll lose out on the long rest benefits unless they restart the rest entirely.

[ad_hoc]

The assassin looks better on paper than in actual play.

They need to both surprise their opponents and win initiative to auto critical (because if they don't win initiative their opponent will no longer be surprised when it comes time to attack).

The amount of times this will happen will likely be low.

Also, the auto critical is a 'win more' ability. If you are surprising your opponents you are in pretty good shape already.

The advantage on winning initiative is the main and stronger part of the ability. Still, I think assassins are one of the weaker Rogue subclasses in actual play.

[hymer]

Solunaris has got it right, but I'll make one addition: You can't benefit from more than one long rest in a 24-hour period.

[Fishyninja]

Secondly, according to the player's handbook the players can take a long rest as long as they budget 8 hours of downtime. This downtime need not be in a safe environment provided it isn't interrupted by 1 hour of strenuous activity or more than 2 hours of keeping watch per player.


Solunaris has got it right, but I'll make one addition: You can't benefit from more than one long rest in a 24-hour period.

Yes DM's (well mine) like throwing animal attacks at us in the middle of the nigth suring long rests. So if your Assassin is doing some contracts at night then depending on the timing they may not have the 8 hours available for a long rest.....or they go to bed early the next day!

[Sir cryosin]

Yes DM's (well mine) like throwing animal attacks at us in the middle of the nigth suring long rests. So if your Assassin is doing some contracts at night then depending on the timing they may not have the 8 hours available for a long rest.....or they go to bed early the next day!

That's why someone in the party need to have the spell leomund's tiny Hut.

[Fishyninja]

That's why someone in the party need to have the spell leomund's tiny Hut.

Surely having an elf in a trance would also bypass this?

[visitor]

Thanks everyone. Just getting back to D&D after many decades. I thought as much, but its nice to have confirmation and hear how others read some rules.

Rogue player just made level 3, and I was a little suprised how quickly the damage stacked up. However, in terms of not happening too often; "surprise" and "sneaking/hiding" (in game terms) seem pretty vague and murky. The assassin may not get advantage by going before his enemy is in combat, but even if combat starts and if the rogue is hidden (has been successful with stealth roll--and rogues will have a pretty massive stealth bonus), wouldn't you consider his target surprised when attacked/hit by a stealth'ed character? So, fairly simple to achieve a surprise round in almost every anticipated combat, I would think.

I guess at this point, my players are not facing too many enemies. Later, having one stealth killed won't be as significant (maybe).

I see now why the halfling rogue constantly arguing to "stealth/hide" behind his friend in combat is so .... irritating.

[Toadkiller]

Nope. If the enemy knows anyone in the party is there then they cannot be surprised.

[ProphetSword]

Nope. If the enemy knows anyone in the party is there then they cannot be surprised.

Toadkiller is right on the money. Surprise only happens when the monsters are unaware combat is about to happen. If they can see any of the hostile combatants, it doesn't matter if they can see the hidden ones or not; because they cannot be surprised.

Also, I think people tend to think assassins are broken because they might be awarding sneak attacks more than once per turn. Sneak attack can only trigger once per turn.

In my experience, the assassin is good at taking out one creature easily when they have surprise on their side... maybe two if they roll well. But as someone else mentioned, if the monsters are surprised, they will likely be dead before they can react anyway.

[visitor]

Ah, that's a good point. So an action surging rogue/fighter with surprise and haste would critical with sneak attack only once, and 'plain' critical with all the rest of his hits.


I'm in agreement with assassinate occurring only one per combat, but I'm not so sure about surprise ONLY happening before combat starts. If enemies are completely unaware of an assassin, and are in combat (either with the assassin's friends or a 3rd party completely), I don't see the problem with allowing an assassinate attack with the rogue's first attack....after which the combatants are aware of his presence (even if he stealths again).

Now, I see where everyone is coming from with the "Combat Step-by-Step" box and text stating the surprise round occurs at the start of combat. But that doesn't necessarily mean just being in combat makes you immune to being surprised.

The PHB is pretty clear it's DM judgement if anyone is surprised. Again, I wouldn't make anyone miss a turn after combat started, but allowing the first (surprise) attack of a completely new assassin combatant to be an "assassinate" attack (auto crit) doesn't seem that big a deal.

[JellyPooga]

It's also worth noting that critical hits aren't typically all that impressive. Especially if you're doing the Rogue thing and using a Finesse weapon. Yes, the Sneak Attack hit does massive damage, but your off-hand damage on that auto-crit goes up by...3.5 on average. All of. Woo.

Playing a Half-Orc and/or multiclassing 9 levels of Barbarian or a couple of levels of Ranger or Warlock for Hunters Mark/Hex can improve this some, but the auto-crit thing doesn't really work all that amazingly with multiple attacks, except where they allow you to land that Sneak Attack.

[mephnick]

But that doesn't necessarily mean just being in combat makes you immune to being surprised.

I'm almost certain it does. You can be unaware of a hidden attacker (thus giving them advantage) but that doesn't tag you with the surprised condition.

[visitor]

Well I understand what you're saying and why.

Thanks for the replies!

[visitor]

Sorry! I just remembered I had thought of a different scenario for surprise:


Assassin rogue is hidden, and enemies are completely unaware of him. Two bands of npcs are fighting each other. Rogue observes for while, then decides to act; initiative has not been formally determined, as the DM is just describing the action of the npcs fighting each other.

So would you say the "surprise" condition is still unapplicable as the npcs are in combat? Or perhaps the PHB is describing 'combat' as it pertains to the rogue and his party/players?


I would think the DM would say: the npcs are surprised by the appearance of a new combatant, lets roll initiative now, npcs are [surprised condition] --vs-- Okay, npc group A's initiative was 13, and npc group B's was 8; now you roll your (rogue) initiative to see where you fit. They are surprised, but not [surprised condition].

Thoughts?

[Malifice]

Thanks everyone. Just getting back to D&D after many decades. I thought as much, but its nice to have confirmation and hear how others read some rules.

Rogue player just made level 3, and I was a little suprised how quickly the damage stacked up. However, in terms of not happening too often; "surprise" and "sneaking/hiding" (in game terms) seem pretty vague and murky. The assassin may not get advantage by going before his enemy is in combat, but even if combat starts and if the rogue is hidden (has been successful with stealth roll--and rogues will have a pretty massive stealth bonus), wouldn't you consider his target surprised when attacked/hit by a stealth'ed character? So, fairly simple to achieve a surprise round in almost every anticipated combat, I would think.

I guess at this point, my players are not facing too many enemies. Later, having one stealth killed won't be as significant (maybe).

I see now why the halfling rogue constantly arguing to "stealth/hide" behind his friend in combat is so .... irritating.

Read the rules on surprise. You're doing it wrong.

[visitor]

Read the rules on surprise. You're doing it wrong.

Thanks! Not helpful.

[Solunaris]

Sorry! I just remembered I had thought of a different scenario for surprise:


Assassin rogue is hidden, and enemies are completely unaware of him. Two bands of npcs are fighting each other. Rogue observes for while, then decides to act; initiative has not been formally determined, as the DM is just describing the action of the npcs fighting each other.

So would you say the "surprise" condition is still unapplicable as the npcs are in combat? Or perhaps the PHB is describing 'combat' as it pertains to the rogue and his party/players?


I would think the DM would say: the npcs are surprised by the appearance of a new combatant, lets roll initiative now, npcs are [surprised condition] --vs-- Okay, npc group A's initiative was 13, and npc group B's was 8; now you roll your (rogue) initiative to see where you fit. They are surprised, but not [surprised condition].

Thoughts?

You are confusing old surprise rules with the new surprise rules. Let us take a quick look at how the PHB describes the surprised condition. It says that a character or monster is only surprised if it isn't aware of any threats at the start of an encounter. A good way to think of surprise in 5e is to imagine whether or not a character (or monster) is currently expecting to get stabbed. Let me specifically walk you through 2 scenarios, starting with yours.

In your scenario, the npc combatants are already fighting each other and in combat. Even if you don't have one specifically ironed out, within the mechanics of the system they already have an initiative order. The encounter has started for them, even if the players are currently not involved and no initiative has been rolled. If a player jumps in from a hiding spot (and wasn't noticed by his mark) they will have advantage on whatever they attack but the target will not be surprised. It is already in combat, aware of other threats, and therefore guarding it's vital areas as one does in combat.

So let's imagine a different scenario where the party is sneaking up as a group on a bunch of Hobgoblins. The Hobgoblins are all huddled around a camp-fire with 2 posted as sentries while they rest for the night. Now, the party each makes a stealth roll opposed by the sentry's passive perception scores. If even one of the party members get spotted by the sentries then even if the assassin remains unnoticed he can't get his auto-critical attacks off because the sentries are not surprised. The Hobgoblins around the fire, however, might not have noticed a single party member on account of trusting the watch to the sentries, so of the assassin can get to them before the first round of combat passes then he can get off his auto-criticals on them.

Earlier some one posted that the assassin only gets his auto-criticals if the enemy manages to be surprised and the assassin wins initiative over them; implying that the surprised condition is alleviated once your turn has passed. Since the book doesn't specifically call out when the condition ends, I'd say that it is up to DM digression as to when it does. If I were the DM, I'd probably allow the assassin to gain the auto-critical hits if he manages to surprise an enemy even if he loses initiative to them. It won't hurt your encounters much since he'll lose his advantage against them for moving before them and it'll make him feel more powerful since he won't get denied using his class ability if he puts in the effort to set it up but loses the dice roll.

[visitor]

You are confusing old surprise rules with the new surprise rules. Let us take a quick look at how the PHB describes the surprised condition. It says that a character or monster is only surprised if it isn't aware of any threats at the start of an encounter. A good way to think of surprise in 5e is to imagine whether or not a character (or monster) is currently expecting to get stabbed. Let me specifically walk you through 2 scenarios, starting with yours.

In your scenario, the npc combatants are already fighting each other and in combat. Even if you don't have one specifically ironed out, within the mechanics of the system they already have an initiative order. The encounter has started for them, even if the players are currently not involved and no initiative has been rolled. If a player jumps in from a hiding spot (and wasn't noticed by his mark) they will have advantage on whatever they attack but the target will not be surprised. It is already in combat, aware of other threats, and therefore guarding it's vital areas as one does in combat.

So let's imagine a different scenario where the party is sneaking up as a group on a bunch of Hobgoblins. The Hobgoblins are all huddled around a camp-fire with 2 posted as sentries while they rest for the night. Now, the party each makes a stealth roll opposed by the sentry's passive perception scores. If even one of the party members get spotted by the sentries then even if the assassin remains unnoticed he can't get his auto-critical attacks off because the sentries are not surprised. The Hobgoblins around the fire, however, might not have noticed a single party member on account of trusting the watch to the sentries, so of the assassin can get to them before the first round of combat passes then he can get off his auto-criticals on them.

Earlier some one posted that the assassin only gets his auto-criticals if the enemy manages to be surprised and the assassin wins initiative over them; implying that the surprised condition is alleviated once your turn has passed. Since the book doesn't specifically call out when the condition ends, I'd say that it is up to DM digression as to when it does. If I were the DM, I'd probably allow the assassin to gain the auto-critical hits if he manages to surprise an enemy even if he loses initiative to them. It won't hurt your encounters much since he'll lose his advantage against them for moving before them and it'll make him feel more powerful since he won't get denied using his class ability if he puts in the effort to set it up but loses the dice roll.

Thank you! That is actually very very close to what I was thinking. What was kind of bugging me, is it seems people are reading: [party in combat = no surprise anymore (very clear)] as equal to [any combat (not involving pcs) = no surprise], which I don't think necessarily follows, even as written. Like I've said, I definitely see where everyone is coming from, and it is clearer, thanks.

As a side note, isn't passive perception 10 + ability modifier? I can't see even low level rogues having much difficulty with that. A first level can have +8 (+4 dex, +2 x 2 expertise proficiency) stealth

[Solunaris]

Thank you! That is actually very very close to what I was thinking. What was kind of bugging me, is it seems people are reading: [party in combat = no surprise anymore (very clear)] as equal to [any combat (not involving pcs) = no surprise], which I don't think necessarily follows, even as written. Like I've said, I definitely see where everyone is coming from, and it is clearer, thanks.

As a side note, isn't passive perception 10 + ability modifier? I can't see even low level rogues having much difficulty with that. A first level can have +8 (+4 dex, +2 x 2 expertise proficiency) stealth

Yes, Passive Perception is 10+Wisdom with proficiency if they have it. Generally rogues don't have trouble with this, which is kinda the point of the class. The real trouble comes when the rogue is traveling with his Fighter buddy in Full plate with an 8 in Dexterity and no proficiency in Stealth.

[guachi]

The only thing being surprised does is disallow movement or actions on your first turn and no reactions until your first turn is over.

Once your first turn is over, none of the conditions of being surprised are in effect. Therefore, you are no longer surprised at the end of your first turn.

You can change the rule if you like; but you are changing the rule.

[Solunaris]

The only thing being surprised does is disallow movement or actions on your first turn and no reactions until your first turn is over.

Once your first turn is over, none of the conditions of being surprised are in effect. Therefore, you are no longer surprised at the end of your first turn.

You can change the rule if you like; but you are changing the rule.

The book ill defines the "Surprised" condition in that it isn't a condition. It is an arbitrary thing the DM determines at the start of an encounter with no explanation of it's duration, end, or even an appendix entry. With a direct reading of the rules, even though it's negative effects end after your first turn one could (badly) argue that since the book doesn't say the condition ever ends and is exclusive to combat that a character or monster that has been surprised remains so for the duration of the encounter.

Honestly, I feel like it's a half finished condition that the designers forgot they didn't finish and then based a class ability on it.

[Malifice]

Thanks! Not helpful.

A creature that fails to notice a threat at the start of combat is surprised on round one (he cant take actions on his first turn, and cant take reactions until that turn ends).

If aware of a threat (including already being in combat with another creature) he is not surprised.

[visitor]

A creature that fails to notice a threat at the start of combat is surprised on round one (he cant take actions on his first turn, and cant take reactions until that turn ends).

If aware of a threat (including already being in combat with another creature) he is not surprised.


I don't really want (or need) to extend this thread; but...

"(including already being in combat with another creature)"....this is exactly the line of thinking that I feel doesn't necessarily follow your first line or the text in the PHB. (and incidentally, is your own text, added onto the PHB quote)

I think the intent at least is that once the player's party starts combat, there is no surprise. But just the act of being in combat (with someone else) doesn't necessarily impart immunity to surprise, as in the case of the PCs laying in wait/ambushing some two warring factions. If the PCs have not entered combat, I think the DM can justify allowing surprise to occur.

[Solunaris]

I don't really want (or need) to extend this thread; but...

"(including already being in combat with another creature)"....this is exactly the line of thinking that I feel doesn't necessarily follow your first line or the text in the PHB. (and incidentally, is your own text, added onto the PHB quote)

I think the intent at least is that once the player's party starts combat, there is no surprise. But just the act of being in combat (with someone else) doesn't necessarily impart immunity to surprise, as in the case of the PCs laying in wait/ambushing some two warring factions. If the PCs have not entered combat, I think the DM can justify allowing surprise to occur.

This line of thinking is opposite what they intended in my mind. Since it doesn't specify "Player Combat" but just combat in general, anything that is actively fighting wouldn't suffer from the "Surprised" condition. Since it even specifies that if they notice even one threat at the start of combat they aren't surprised I'd say your interpretation directly contradicts the stated rules.

Like with my example above, if a creature notices even one threat they aren't surprised even if they don't notice all the threats. Just because none of the threats are player characters doesn't change that they are aware of threats. Being already in combat keeps them from being surprised.

[visitor]

This line of thinking is opposite what they intended in my mind. Since it doesn't specify "Player Combat" but just combat in general, anything that is actively fighting wouldn't suffer from the "Surprised" condition. Since it even specifies that if they notice even one threat at the start of combat they aren't surprised I'd say your interpretation directly contradicts the stated rules.

Like with my example above, if a creature notices even one threat they aren't surprised even if they don't notice all the threats. Just because none of the threats are player characters doesn't change that they are aware of threats. Being already in combat keeps them from being surprised.

I think because the PHB is of course player-centric, and in most cases written from the players point of view, the 'start of combat' they are addressing is when the player characters begin combat. Which would be like 97% of the time. I don't think they're really addressing the remaining 3% or making an iron law of combat = immunity to surprise. Though practically, it's pretty much the same thing.

Actually, I thought you were closer to this view, as your examples earlier allowed DM wiggle room.


I do appreciate everyone's helpful input. It has helped clarify some things in my mind. In my game, the rogue, hidden and separate from the main party for a while, attacked after the others had initiated combat. Though 'surprising' the enemies, I see this would give advantage vs surprise/auto-crit. Plus, its not as overpowering as I thought, as sneak attack would apply only once/for one attack in the turn.