Base class for a dervish?

[Twilight Jack]

Got a player in a game I'm about to begin who's decided he wants to play a Dervish. Thing is, he's working himself into knots trying to figure out which of three different base classes would best serve him in creating said Dervish. He's stuck between Fighter, Ranger, and Swashbuckler. I've gone over the pros and cons of each, but he's wanting me to tell him which one is best and I refuse to do that since I'm the DM, and I don't want to create his character for him.

So I'm opening it up to the boards. How would you do it, and why? Compare, contrast, show your work, and defend your decisions. Then I'll just guide my player here and let him figure it out for himself.

[giblina]

Tell him to assign each a number and roll some dice and save yourself from further effort :)

[Twilight Jack]

Tell him to assign each a number and roll some dice and save yourself from further effort :)

A potentially useful last resort, but I'd like to avoid that sort of thing if possible. Fact is, each of the three possibilities results in a very different type of Dervish, and he's unsure which he really wants.

[Talya]

Ranger is great if you mix it with Scout and allow that feat that lets ranger and scout stack for certain class features.

Swashbuckler/Fighter is only decent if used together, as well.

Unmentioned: Warblade is awesome as well.

[lotofsnow]

Has he read The Dervish Handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=629013&highlight=dervish)?

If not, he should, it might give him some ideas and perhaps the ability to make his own decision.

Me? I'd go Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 2/ Dervish 10/ Whatever 5

Simple, Easy, Fun.

[Twilight Jack]

Ranger is great if you mix it with Scout and allow that feat that lets ranger and scout stack for certain class features.

Swashbuckler/Fighter is only decent if used together, as well.

Unmentioned: Warblade is awesome as well.

Warblade is the class from Tome of Battle, right? We don't have that, so it's out.

Also, the total character level for this game is 10. So base your build ideas on that level, if you please.

[Talya]

Warblade is the class from Tome of Battle, right? We don't have that, so it's out.

Also, the total character level for this game is 10. So base your build ideas on that level, if you please.

Fastest, simplest way into Dervish for campaigns that won't break 10 is human, 3 swashbuckler, 2 fighter (Probably S-F-S-F-S, be sure to take swashbuckler as your first class though for the extra 8 skill points and the class skill of tumble to stick 4 of them in.) Pump int and dex. Take expeditious dodge (human), TWF (level 1), combat expertise (fighter 1), mobility (level 3), weapon focus: scimitar (fighter 2). Then move into dervish at 6 and don't look back.

[lotofsnow]

Human Swash 3/ Fighter 2/ Dervish 5

1 Swas - Weapon Focus: Scimitar, Dodge, Weapon Finesse
2 Swas -
3 Swas - Mobility
4 Fight - Two Weapon Fighting
5 Fight - Combat Expertise
6 Derv - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7 Derv -
8 Derv -
9 Derv - Improved Critical
10 Derv -

[Talya]

Human Swash 3/ Fighter 2/ Dervish 5

1 Swas - Weapon Focus: Scimitar, Dodge
2 Swas - Weapon Finesse
3 Swas - Mobility
4 Fight - Two Weapon Fighting
5 Fight - Combat Expertise
6 Derv - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7 Derv -
8 Derv -
9 Derv - Improved Critical
10 Derv -

Problem with that:

Swashbuckler gets weapon finesse automatically at level 1. Nevertheless, you don't have a feat to spend at 2, so that's probably an oversight. The rest of it is pretty much the same as my own.

[lotofsnow]

Problem with that:

Swashbuckler gets weapon finesse automatically at level 1. Nevertheless, you don't have a feat to spend at 2, so that's probably an oversight. The rest of it is pretty much the same as my own.

Oops, I actually thought swashbucklers got it at level 2, which is why it was in italics. That'll teach me to double check my books. I'll change it.

[Soepvork]

My personal favorites for a Dervish build is the following:

1: Barbarian 1: Two Weapon Fighting
2: Fighter 1: Dodge
3: Fighter 2: Mobility, Combat Expertise
4: Duskblade 1: (for some spell goodies)
5: Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finesse
6: Dervish 1: Improved TWF
9: Improved Crit (Scimitar)

Granted, it is probably a bit weaker than Swash 3 / Fgt 2, but I like the Barbarian Fast movement (to make your character really speedy combined with Dervish) and some flexibility through the Duskblade spells (most notably, True Strike). Due to the way saves and multiclassing works, you will end up with a huge Fort save (always good), and swap 1 point on your base Ref with to 1 point of base Will (which is more useful than Ref anyway in most cases). The thing you will probably miss most tho' is the insightful strike (or whatever the Swashbuckler ability that let's you add your INT-mod to damage) was, making this character more dependant on raw Strength.

[Zherog]

I don't have it handy, but my wife is currently building towards it through a combination of swashbuckler (1 level), rogue, and ranger (2 levels). I believe her build has her taking 3 levels of rogue, but it might be 4.

[Twilight Jack]

I think the Swash3/Ftr2/Dervish5 build will best fit what he's trying to accomplish here. Which is more or less what I tried to suggest to him last night without saying as much.

Now, though, I'm loving the discussion. Anyone else have some good Dervish builds?

[Zherog]

I know my wife opted for the rogue route because being able to make sneak attacks on a full attack while still getting your full movement was appealing to her. Of course, you take the "hit" of having a medium BAB class, which delays entry slightly.

I'll grab her planned build later tonight and post it up.

[Twilight Jack]

I know my wife opted for the rogue route because being able to make sneak attacks on a full attack while still getting your full movement was appealing to her. Of course, you take the "hit" of having a medium BAB class, which delays entry slightly.

I'll grab her planned build later tonight and post it up.

The sneak attack damage is a nice touch, but I would think that skirmish damage would be of greater utility to the dervish. Since movement is the defining factor of the class' full attack routine, I'd imagine that adding extra damage from skirmish will happen a lot more often than sneak attack.

[Person_Man]

I suggest the unorthodox entry of Factotum 8. You'll have to delay entry into the Dervish, but you gain all Skills in class, Int to all Str and Dex checks (Jump, Climb, Tumble, Balance, etc), all sorts of other Int related abilities, and the insanely useful Cunning Surge, which gives you a free extra Standard action once per combat. UMD is a class Skill, and activating a magic item is a standard action, followed by your dance of death. With the right items (usually Summoning or some other battlefield control spell) you can basically take on anyone by yourself.

Also, its worth mentioning that the Dervish is a mediocre prestige class with horrible entry requirements. Your player is probably much better off being something else, especially if you start at low levels.

[Twilight Jack]

I suggest the unorthodox entry of Factotum 8. You'll have to delay entry into the Dervish, but you gain all Skills in class, Int to all Str and Dex checks (Jump, Climb, Tumble, Balance, etc), all sorts of other Int related abilities, and the insanely useful Cunning Surge, which gives you a free extra Standard action once per combat. UMD is a class Skill, and activating a magic item is a standard action, followed by your dance of death. With the right items (usually Summoning or some other battlefield control spell) you can basically take on anyone by yourself.

Also, its worth mentioning that the Dervish is a mediocre prestige class with horrible entry requirements. Your player is probably much better off being something else, especially if you start at low levels.

Yes, but I'm not really running a game that requires absolute optimization for every player. He has a concept based upon flavor, and I support that. I just wanted to help him consider a few different ways in which to go about it.

And Factotum is the totally broken, "I do everything," class from Dungeonscape, right?

[Person_Man]

And Factotum is the totally broken, "I do everything," class from Dungeonscape, right?

Rich designed the Factotum. In my opinion, it's very well balanced, essentially a fixed Bard. It has:

All Class Skills, and various bonuses to Skills
Find Traps
Limited once per encounter special abilities, similar to ToB maneuvers.
Slow caster (tops out at 7th level) off a decent arcane+divine list
The 19th level capstone ability (does anyone take 19 levels of any one class anymore?) allows you to mimic any (Ex) class ability of any base class of up to 15th level for a minute three times per day.

If you think ToB material is broken, then you'll dislike the Factotum. If other members of your party play full casters, psionics users, and/or ToB classes, then its balanced class. If you're playing in a party with a Ninja, Healer, and Samurai, then yes, its overpowered.

[Stephen_E]

For something different....

Human
Druid 1, Combat Expertise, Dodge,
Druid 2
Swashbuckler 1, Weapon Finesse, Mobility, All skill points on Tumble.
Druid 3,
Druid 4,
Fighter 1, Weapon Focus - Scimitar, TWF,
Dervish .....

Cast the 2nd lev Druid Flameblade spell (this gives you a scimitar of flame {crits 18-20, slashing weapon} that requires a touch attack to hit, does energy damage, which can be empowered ecetre, no Str bonus to damage.
If possible get a Metamagic Rod - Twin Spell (Comp Arcane)
Feats to look at, Practised Caster, Improved TWF, If he later gets a 5th lev of Druid he could go for Empower Spell, Energy Substitution and Energy Admixture.

This can also works if the DM house rules Flame Blade as a 1st lev Ranger Spell (Ist lev Ranger spells are a mix of 1st and 2nd lev Druid spells). It doesn't feel quite so kludged, although it becomes awfully tempting just to remain a Ranger all the way to 20th lev

Stephen