Class and Level Geekery [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Poeir

2005-08-03, 07:02 PM

First part's copied and pasted from "She's a... Paladin?"
Vaarsuvius' spellbook includes:
Cast (or at least definitely prepared) spells: Bull's Strength (Transmutation), Chain Lightning (Evocation), Crushing Despair (Enchantment), Dispel Magic (Abjuration), Explosive Runes (Abjuration), Evard's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion (probably Conjuration (Creation)), Feather Fall (Transmutation), Fireball (Evocation), Hold Person (Enchantment), Hold Portal (Abjuration), discount Invisibility Sphere (Illusion), Lightning Bolt (Evocation), Magic Missile (Evocation), Owl's Wisdom (Transmutation), Scorching Ray (Evocation), Sleep (Enchantment) Suggestion (Enchantment); also one of Analyze Dweomer or Identify (both Divination)
Spells mentioned in V's attempt to trade with Zz'dtri: Vampiric Touch (Necromancy), Time Stop (Transmutation), Meteor Swarm (Evocation), Wish (Universal)

So, if V is a specialist, the banned schools are Conjuration and Necromancy, since Evard's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion's school must be speculated upon and Vampiric Touch was listed with a number of other spells that V almost certainly does not possess.

Concentration is no higher than +14, since V failed several times while pinned by a tanglefoot bag.
Can cast distintegrate twice per day, indicating level 11 with 22 (modified) Int or level 12 or higher, so has at most 6 skill points/level for most levels. Some are in Concentration and some are in Spellcraft.
Is a pointy-eared, purple-haired, ambiguously gendered elf.
Is Not Evil.
Intelligence at start of comic (or, more accurately, engagement with the non-SRD monster) is 18.
Does not have Still Spell feat.
Low Charisma.

Can't think of much else at the moment.

Sothicus

2005-08-03, 07:09 PM

First post and what do I head for.. the geekiest of them all :)

Anyway... I found this in the f.a.q. on the website:

"Q: What are the character’s D&D stats? Will you ever create character sheets for us to see?

A: There are no hard-and-fast stats for the characters. I find that if I were to ever commit exact stats to paper, I would feel limited in what I could have these characters do in the future. For example, I might want to make a strip spoofing a particular feat, only to find that I didn’t give it to any of my characters. As a result, there will never be official game statistics for Roy, Elan, and the rest. As a rule of thumb, I tend to think of them as being around 7th-9th level or so; powerful enough to have a bunch of different storytelling options, weak enough that I can justify them running away from anything I throw at them."

So we know that Rich had the intention of making the characters mid-level. I think he underestimates their level a little but as he said, he doesn't want to limit himself.

However, I find doing this sort of thing fun.. so here's my take (note that I will update as I go back and review strips for content):

First, each character has levelled twice and each time at the same time, with the exception of Belkar whom had to add a bit of role-playing in order to catch up. Though this was before his level in Barbarian, we can guess that Belkar is suffering from exp loss of some sort. Anyway, because each character has levelled at the same time, it is reasonable to assume that they are roughly the same level, if not the exact same.

Here's what I've gleaned so far:

Roy - Fighter Level ?

Feats:
Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization - By his own admittance to having the feat

Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave - Bonus Wallpaper... cleaving through multiple zombies

Skills:
Climb - When climbing with the evil twin Grog
Handle Animal - Drives the wagons of gold
Ride - Admitted during beginning of side quest
Diplomacy - By regular talking with NPC's, etc

Ability scores:
Str - 16 This is a guess
Dex - 13 A guess, was reasonably nimble moving throught he goblin hordes
Con - 18 A guess, Has mentioned a couple of times that he has high hit points
Int - 15 A guess, Definately smart, but not as smart as V... was the burger to V's turkey with the mind flayer
Wis - 13 A guess, Reasonably wise but has issues, particularly when dealing with Elan
Cha - 15 A guess, Due to his ability to talke to NPC's as group spokesperson

Durkon - Cleric Level 11?

Feats:
Unknown, nothing used to suggest what kind he may possess.

Skills:
Knowledge (Religion) - Can talk about his God, though he doesn't know much about other Gods (like Loki, for example) not many ranks obviously

Ability scores:
Str - 16 This is a guess
Dex - 10 A guess, he's in plate armor, he doesn't need it
Con - 18 A guess, he's a dwarf
Int - 13 A guess, Bright enough, but more wise than smarts
Wis - 15 A guess, wise, able to observe divine intervention (or misinterput)
Cha - 13 A guess, He's a dwarf, generally not charismatic, though needed in order to turn undead

Haley - Rogue Level ?

Feats:
Point Black Shot, Precise Shot, Many Shot, Rapid Shot (Succubus fight)

Improved Initiative - A guess based on the chimera fight

Skills:
Spot
Listen
Search
Open Lock
Disable Device
(I think these are self evident)

Ability scores:
Str - 11 Nothing to show she is particularly strong
Dex - 18 A guess, based on the marvelous reflex saving throws
Con - 11 A guess
Int - 13 A guess, she's smart when it comes to economics
Wis - 11 A guess, she tends to look the other way at certain things which may cause her grief in the future
Cha - 15 A guess, she's wowed the males several times

Vaarsuvius - Wizard Level 11?

Feats:
Nothing which has jumped out at me yet

Skills:
Knowledge (Arcane)
Spellcraft

Ability scores:
Str - 10 Nothing to show he is particularly strong
Dex - 13 A guess, based on the fact that he is an elf
Con - 11 A guess
Int - 18 Admitted
Wis - 13 A guess, based on things he has said
Cha - 13 A guess, he's a bit aloof and doesn't play well with others but still an elf

Elan - Bard Level ?

Feats:
Nothing which has jumped out at me yet

Skills:
Ride - Admitted
Perform - Stringed instruments
Perform - Singing

Ability scores:
Str - 10 Nothing to show he is particularly strong
Dex - 15 A guess
Con - 11 A guess
Int - 8 I'm being generous here
Wis - 8 No seriously, generous
Cha - 18 Admitted by Haley

Belkar - Ranger Level ? / Barbarian Level 1

Feats:
Two-weapon fighting (from ranger)

Skills:
Ride (at least 1 rank from his Dautschound experience)
Jump (seen jumping at foes quite often)

Ability scores:
Str - 10 Nothing to show he is particularly strong
Dex - 15 A guess
Con - 11 A guess
Int - 12 He's smarter than the average halfling
Wis - 10 He's chaotic tendancies push him easily
Cha - 8 He barely gets along with anyone, let along NPC's

Again, I will update as I find evidence and clues... This is from the top of my head

Adghar

2005-08-03, 10:46 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1105422121

Bjorm

2005-08-04, 02:18 AM

I would assume Belkar also had a few rogue levels since he likes to "stab" opponents :)

Kish

2005-08-04, 02:38 AM

What does being a rogue have to do with stabbing opponents? The fact that Belkar's personality is pointed toward obsession with combat prowess is an argument against him having any levels of a class with less than fighter BAB. I suspect if any of the characters (except Belkar now) were multiclassed, they'd have mentioned it, as Belkar did when he took that barbarian level, and as Elan did when he nearly took levels of cleric and wizard.

"Another ranger level, then?" "I was thinking of multiclassing"--certainly seems to me to indicate Belkar is a single-classed ranger when he says that, and if he was part rogue, Elan's question would have probably been, "A level of ranger or of rogue this time?" with Belkar's response being, "I was thinking of adding a third class, actually."

Devils_Advocate

2005-08-04, 03:32 AM

Note that when the group first goes up a level (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=12), Haley gains more sneak attack damage and V gets a new spell level. So they each go up to an odd level, probably 11. (If they are not at the same level, there is at least a 2 level difference between the two.) Belkar clearly states that he and Vaarsuvius are the same level (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=126), so it seems most likely that those three characters are all at level 12 now. I'm inclined to think that the whole party is the same level. The only real counter-evidence I see is Elan's bard song only giving a +1 bonus to damage instead of +2; and given that that happens in a strip about how players don't always figure such things correctly (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=34), I wouldn't go reading too much into that.

Since "The place for over-analysis..." is 19 pages long now, maybe we could continue that vein of discussion here, with some summaries of the findings from that thread? (I recommend looking at post #140 on page 10 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1105422121 ;start=135) for a particularly condensed analysis of a lot of the evidence.) And of course by "we", I mean "you".

::Goes back to lurking::

Runolfr

2005-08-05, 09:03 AM

Vaarsuvius can cast Distintegrate twice in succession. Since we don't know of any specific magic item that Vaarsuvius has that would allow this (the Ring of Wizardry seems to affect L3 spells like Suggestion), and we have no indication that Vaarsuvius is a specialist, I think it's reasonable to conclude that Vaarsuvius is a Level 12 Wizard.

This would put the rest of the Order at Level 11-12.

Runolfr

2005-08-05, 09:11 AM

I would assume Belkar also had a few rogue levels since he likes to "stab" opponents :)

The phrase "Sneak Attack!" has never been used in conjunction with any of Belkar's actions, as it has been used with Haley's.

Bogardan_Mage

2005-08-05, 06:27 PM

Int - 15 A guess, Definately smart, but not as smart as V... was the burger to V's turkey with the mind flayer
Read the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=31) again. V was the burger, Roy was the turkey. "Why are you eating him? I am a wizard! A delectable 18 Intelligence right before you!"

Penguin

2005-08-05, 10:40 PM

So...V is Junkfood for mindflayers...what can we make of that? :D

Azamillan

2005-08-06, 03:34 AM

The Mind Flayers don't just look for Intelligence. They probably like some Wisdom, Charisma, and interesting life experiences as well. Maybe he saw V as having too much "excess" or "useless" knowledge, while Roy's brain had just the right kind of pragmatic viewpoint the Mind Flayer looking for.

vrox

2005-08-06, 09:44 AM

Haley: Better Hide skill total than Belkar before entering the Dungeon of Dorukan (from the book).

Roy is established Lawful Good, Belkar is something evil (confirmed by the author as well as obvious from his actions), Elan is something good.

(This thread has quite a bit of overlap with The Place for Over-Analysis, doesn't it?)
As to Roy's "Lawful Goodness" Who would want to be Lawful Good?! Lame! Bwah ha ha ha ha! (no offense)

Runolfr

2005-08-08, 03:34 PM

So...V is Junkfood for mindflayers...what can we make of that? :D

Probably that if you totalled Roy's Int, Wis, and Cha scores, you'd get a substantially higher number than the same total for Vaarsuvius.

Runolfr

2005-08-08, 03:37 PM

Kish

2005-08-08, 04:22 PM

As to Roy's "Lawful Goodness" Who would want to be Lawful Good?! Lame! Bwah ha ha ha ha! (no offense)
The parenthetical comment clashes rather severely with the rest of the post and creates quite an incongruous result. :P

Sylvius

2005-08-08, 04:33 PM

Current Estimates:

Roy - Fighter 12 (Lawful Good)

Haley - Rogue 12 (Chaotic Good)

Belkar - Ranger 11 / Barbarian 1 (Chaotic Evil)

Vaarsuvius - Wizard 12 (Chaotic Good)
Int 18

Durkon - Cleric 12 (Lawful Good)

Elan - Bard 12 (Chaotic Good)
Cha 18

Haley and Vaarsuvius have to be neutral - we know they're "Not Evil", but they were willing to discuss attacking the Paladin. I think we're looking at a Chaotic Neutral Haley, with a True Neutral or even Lawful Neutral Vaarsuvius (note V's obsession with fairness in comic 126).

Durkon also seems too level-headed to be Lawful Good - I'd guess more Neutral Good with Durkon.

Kish

2005-08-08, 05:24 PM

Saxov

2005-08-08, 05:28 PM

Durkon also seems too level-headed to be Lawful Good - I'd guess more Neutral Good with Durkon.
Given that the default Dwarven alignment is LG, and Thor is CG, that means that to be a cleric of Thor he must be either NG, CG or CN - where the chaotic aspect is atypical for a dwarf - and the party is somewhat stereotypical, I would go with NG..

Lilly

2005-08-08, 06:11 PM

This strip (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=84) seems to say otherwise as to Durkon being NG. It points to a very lawful Durkon.

"I stay here because it's my duty, and being a dwarf is about doing your duty, even if it makes you miserable. Espically if it makes you miserable." That sounds lawful to me.

Also I'm pretty sure the OotS Thor is not the Diety and Demigods Thor.

JMFD

2005-08-08, 06:34 PM

Whoever did the skills posting; Elan has perform[Kaazoo] now ;)

Saxov

2005-08-09, 08:17 AM

Hzurr

2005-08-09, 11:25 AM

*sigh* I can't believe I'm doing this.

Roy - LG
Mika - LG
Durkan - LG/NG (under debate)
Elan - CG
Haley - CN (not set in stone, but the best guess)
V - LN (He's obviously neither good, nor evil, and he seems fairly lawful. TN is also a possibility)
Bakar - CE (definately not lawful. Evil is proven in the strips, and stated by the Giant)

So...yes, there you are. Oh, and I'd say lvl 11/12 is a good guess

Sundog

2005-08-09, 11:57 AM

Haley and Vaarsuvius have to be neutral - we know they're "Not Evil", but they were willing to discuss attacking the Paladin.

I completely disagree. Why shouldn't good people attack a Paladin, if that Paladin is doing something they disagree with?

I've been in that situation. A Paladin was ordered to bring my character to justice, for destroying a temple (yes, I had done it, but I had a good reason).

The Paladin was (of course) Lawful Good. I was Chaotic Good. He captured me, tied me up and started taking me back. My character, knowing he would probably be executed at the end of the trip, slipped out of Her bonds, and cut the Paladin's throat while he was sleeping. I was able to argue that my killing of the Paladin was completely justified, given he wouldn't have stopped coming after me, and he intended me harm.

A good character doesn't have to kowtow to a Paladin's wishes. Hell, I would bet that there are probably Paladins on both sides of most wars, in the D&D universes - with different interpretations of which side is the good one.

Kish

2005-08-09, 12:58 PM

And looking at http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=58 we might conclude that Belkar has a wisdom 10, since without owl's Wisdom he is not able to cast spells spells (There are no level 0 ranger spells, so a wis 11 is required to cast spells for a ranger) and with the +4 bonus he is able to cast CSW (a forth level spell for rangers, requiring Wis 14)
Except that looking at the way Belkar acts all the time, he certainly doesn't have a Wisdom anywhere near average.

I completely disagree. Why shouldn't good people attack a Paladin, if that Paladin is doing something they disagree with?

Because killing a good person is an evil act.

Poeir

2005-08-09, 01:33 PM

Oh, no, not this again (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1121287178 ;start=60#70).

Runolfr

2005-08-09, 03:28 PM

"And bein' a dwarf is about doin' your duty, even when it makes you miserable. ESPECIALLY when it makes you miserable!...Yer duty as a dwarf is to go home and be with your husband." I can't see that being a non-Lawful character speaking.

My thought exactly.

Haley and Vaarsuvius have to be neutral - we know they're "Not Evil", but they were willing to discuss attacking the Paladin. I think we're looking at a Chaotic Neutral Haley, with a True Neutral or even Lawful Neutral Vaarsuvius (note V's obsession with fairness in comic 126).

Haley and Vaarsuvius were willing to attack the Paladin, but that doesn't mean they were planning to kill the Paladin. It's not like they even kill all of their evil enemies (see Samantha and her dad (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=171)).

It's also worth remembering that Haley was able to activate the air sigil back in OotS #54 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=54), which I take to be a sign that she has a good alignment.

Vaarsuvius' alignment is more debatable, though.

Runolfr

2005-08-09, 03:31 PM

And looking at http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=58 we might conclude that Belkar has a wisdom 10, since without owl's Wisdom he is not able to cast spells spells (There are no level 0 ranger spells, so a wis 11 is required to cast spells for a ranger) and with the +4 bonus he is able to cast CSW (a forth level spell for rangers, requiring Wis 14)

Belkar was able to read a scroll, not cast the spell. He could pull that off with less than 14 Wisdom, although there would be a chance of miscasting.

Kish

2005-08-09, 03:45 PM

It's also worth remembering that Haley was able to activate the air sigil back in OotS #54 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=54), which I take to be a sign that she has a good alignment.

Wellll...I concur that she certainly had a good alignment then, and I've made this point a couple times myself. She might have changed at any time since then, though (perhaps when she wanted to sell a defeated enemy into slavery, and only changed her mind when she saw a big Lawful Good fighter scowling at her?).

Runolfr

2005-08-09, 03:52 PM

Wellll...I concur that she certainly had a good alignment then, and I've made this point a couple times myself. She might have changed at any time since then, though (perhaps when she wanted to sell a defeated enemy into slavery, and only changed her mind when she saw a big Lawful Good fighter scowling at her?).

I would regard that as an alignment test, not an alignment change.

Saxov

2005-08-10, 06:14 AM

Belkar was able to read a scroll, not cast the spell. He could pull that off with less than 14 Wisdom, although there would be a chance of miscasting.
Sorry, but Scrolls are Spell Completion Items, and thus he must be able to follow the three requirement listed on page 238 in the DMG (3.5)

Must be arcane/divine caster, and can only use divine scrolls if he is a divine caster, and only use arcane scrolls if he is arcane caster.
Must have the spell on his class list.
Must have the required attribute.

However if he doesn't have the correct level there will be a chance of failure.

Edit: fixet a typo - byt --> but

Runolfr

2005-08-10, 10:12 AM

Sorry, byt Scrolls are Spell Completion Items, and thus he must be able to follow the three requirement listed on page 238 in the DMG (3.5)

Must be arcane/divine caster, and can only use divine scrolls if he is a divine caster, and only use arcane scrolls if he is arcane caster.
Must have the spell on his class list.
Must have the required attribute.

I stand corrected. Belkar apparently has a Wisdom of 10 (unless the Giant bent a rule, which has been known to happen).

He also has 0 ranks in Survival, as of today's comic.

Corsair

2005-08-11, 03:12 PM

Come on, how can you honestly suggest Belkar is Chaotic Good with a low wisdom? Wisdom doesn't affect your alignment.

Seriously, he suggests with a straight face comitting murder on a helpless foe who's tied up, no less (Thog and Nale). He suggests selling Samantha into slavery. He suggests torching a village with a GRIN on his face.

Come on, he can't possibly be Good. Chaotic Neutral Lunatic maybe, probably just Chaotic Evil.

BurntOfferings

2005-08-11, 07:23 PM

Come on, how can you honestly suggest Belkar is Chaotic Good with a low wisdom? Wisdom doesn't affect your alignment.

:-/

Who claimed that Belkar was good? Ever post in this thread has him pegged as evil (usually chaotic evil).

Rethorn

2005-08-11, 11:37 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=130

V has a Ring of Wizardry, if that helps any.

Runolfr

2005-08-12, 10:15 AM

Updated Estimates:

Roy - Fighter 12 (Lawful Good)
Attributes: Str 13+
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword)
Items: Bag of Tricks, starmetal, cursed crown of Xykon, broken sword

Haley - Rogue 12 (Chaotic Good)
Attributes: Dex 17+
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Many Shot
Items: 8 Bags of Holding

Belkar - Ranger 11 / Barbarian 1 (Chaotic Evil)
Attributes: Wis 10-
Items: Ring of Jumping +20
Feats: Track, Two-Weapon Fighting

Vaarsuvius - Wizard 12 (Neutral Good ???)
Attributes: Int 18
Items: Ring of Wizardry (probably affects level 3 spells)

Durkon - Cleric 12 (Lawful Good)
Attributes: ??
Items: Amulet of Natural Armor

Elan - Bard 12 (Chaotic Good)
Attributes: Cha 18
Items: Boots of Elvenkind

Miko - Monk 2+ / Paladin 5+, total HD 12 (Lawful Good)
Attributes: Dex 15+
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting, unspecified L2 Monk bonus feat

Sc00by

2005-08-12, 09:53 PM

If V isn't LN I'd be very surprised...

Otherwise I agree with the above ;)

just_al

2005-08-15, 03:38 PM

Runolfr

2005-08-15, 03:42 PM

Further Updated Estimates:

Roy - Fighter 12 (Lawful Good)
Attributes: Str 13+
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword)
Items: Bag of Tricks, starmetal, cursed crown of Xykon, broken sword

Haley - Rogue 12 (Chaotic Good)
Attributes: Dex 17+
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Many Shot
Items: 8 Bags of Holding

Belkar - Ranger 11 / Barbarian 1 (Chaotic Evil)
Attributes: Wis 10-
Feats: Track, Two-Weapon Fighting
Items: Ring of Jumping +20

Vaarsuvius - Wizard 12 (Neutral Good )
Attributes: Int 18
Feats: Scribe Scroll
Items: Ring of Wizardry (probably affects level 3 spells)

Durkon - Cleric 12 (Lawful Good)
Attributes: Wis 16+
Items: Amulet of Natural Armor

Elan - Bard 12 (Chaotic Good)
Attributes: Cha 18
Items: Boots of Elvenkind

Miko - Monk 2+ / Paladin 5+, total HD 12 (Lawful Good)
Attributes: Dex 15+
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting, unspecified L2 Monk bonus feat

Ozymandius

2005-08-16, 01:39 AM

Elan has an intelligence of 8-9

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=2

He'd need to have exactly 8-9 int to offset his human skill bonus and give him 6 SP.

Also, Roy has 0 ranks in Bluff.

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=139

Belkar's comment about "pointless rules like don't kill Elan" cements him firmly in Chaotic, thus making a guaranteed CE instead of NE.

Sundog

2005-08-16, 05:26 AM

Oh, definitely Chaotic. Look at his initial reactions to the rules at the Barbarian's guild.

Runolfr

2005-08-16, 01:11 PM

Further Further Updated Estimates:

Roy - Fighter 12 (Lawful Good)
Attributes: Str 13+
Feats (6+7): Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword)
Items: Bag of Tricks, starmetal, cursed crown of Xykon, broken sword

Haley - Rogue 12 (Chaotic Good)
Attributes: Dex 17+
Feats (6): Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Many Shot
Items: 8 Bags of Holding

Belkar - Ranger 11 / Barbarian 1 (Chaotic Evil)
Attributes: Wis 10-
Feats (5+5): Track, Two-Weapon Fighting, Endurance, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Items: Ring of Jumping +20

Vaarsuvius - Wizard 12 (Neutral Good? Lawful Neutral?)
Attributes: Int 18+
Feats (5+3): Scribe Scroll, Improved Counterspell (?)
Items: Ring of Wizardry (probably affects level 3 spells)

Durkon - Cleric 12 (Lawful Good)
Attributes: Wis 16+
Feats (5):
Items: Amulet of Natural Armor

Elan - Bard 12 (Chaotic Good)
Attributes: Cha 18
Feats (6):
Items: Boots of Elvenkind

Miko - Monk 2+ / Paladin 5+, total HD 12+ (Lawful Good)
Attributes: Dex 17+, Wis 12+, Cha 12+
Feats (6+2): Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, unspecified L2 Monk bonus feat (Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows)

The Demented One

2005-08-17, 10:16 AM

Vaarsuvias probably has more Int than 18 by now-he just hit level 12, so that's at least a 19 if he boosted hist Int.

Runolfr

2005-08-17, 01:54 PM

Vaarsuvias probably has more Int than 18 by now-he just hit level 12, so that's at least a 19 if he boosted hist Int.

Of course, we have no idea if that's what he boosted. There's no specific benefit in going from Int 18 to 19 like their is going from 17 to 18. The only thing it would give him is access to 9th level spells, which he won't need for about six more levels.

We know that V had Int 18 in OotS #31; we have no evidence that it has gone up since.

The Demented One

2005-08-18, 12:16 AM

One more point of Int never hurts...sure V might have boosted Con or something, but he seems like one of those knowledge-before-everything-else types to me.

mcc

2005-08-18, 12:44 AM

You know, just to be difficult...

In strip 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=3) haley is complaining about some Boots of Speed that she owned or had the opportunity to own but could not use because they were fashion inappropriate. What chance is there that those are still in her inventory somewheres?

(I'd actually suggest the theory she's still wearing them, she just repainted them or something, but it seems like we might we have noticed some side effects of that by now if that were the case.)

AdmiralSetkin

2005-08-18, 11:55 AM

About the Boots of Speed, there's no indication they were ever in her posession. More that they were just available to her (to buy?) and she had to make a choice.

I'd wager a guess by the way she said "But they were lime green" that she decided to pass them up

I would; one can never underestimate the importance of good fashion ;)

ShneekeyTheLost

2005-08-18, 08:32 PM

Sc00by

2005-08-18, 10:13 PM

Halfling rage jumping attack (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=176) kinda implies that he does have a level of barbarian.

Uncle_Putte

2005-08-18, 11:54 PM

Runolfr

2005-08-19, 08:15 AM

This thread just seemed so geeky I couldn't refrain myself from jumping in. ;D

Strip 38 would give an indication towards Roy's strength being 17... as in, "'Ye've bin poison'd.' 'Well, I figured that, but-' '17 times-' 'Oh.'" - thus reducing his strength to 0. Although this doesn't necessarily mean anything, since his str might be two gazillion to the negative instead of just point-per-poison drain.

Many of the poison's deal 1d4 or 1d6 or more of Strength damage, so you'd have to know the poison to make a claim about Roy's strength. Attributes can't be reduced below 0, anyway, as far as I know.

Runolfr

2005-08-19, 08:17 AM

If I may point out... while Belkar did go to the barbarian guild hall, there is no indication whatsoever that he actually did ineed take a level of barbarian. I haven't seen him Rage yet, so he could still be an angry ranger.

See OotS #213 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=213), bottom row, first frame. Belkar definitely has at least one level of Barbarian.

Runolfr

2005-08-19, 08:22 AM

Speaking of OotS #213, I'm beginning to lean toward V being Lawful Good. His reasoning for going on seems to be based on serving the greater good for the larger community (although he may just be arguing to convince Roy).

Wrecan

2005-08-19, 08:35 AM

I don't read V's comments thhat way at all. V's reason for acting is that she cannot "answer ... key secrets about the nature of the universal order" without Miko and Miko won't leave until the peasants are helped.

V is completely Lawful Neutral, as far as I can tell. Her goals in life are 1) to understand the rational workings of the universe (even if that mens delving into magics that are dengerous) and 2) to get irrational people to act rationally (like, say, convincing brigands why brigandry is economically unfeasible, or telling potion shopkeeps that they are losing money with every sale)

Runolfr

2005-08-30, 10:44 AM

Based on OotS #166 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=166), I think it's safe to conclude that Vaarsuvius has the Improved Counterspell feat.

Runolfr

2005-09-01, 09:41 AM

I'm gathering from the Miko thread that she should have at least Dex 17 for improved two-weapon fighting (apparently needed to get 5 attacks per round at character level 12).

Beamup

2005-09-01, 01:04 PM

Based on OotS #166 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=166), I think it's safe to conclude that Vaarsuvius has the Improved Counterspell feat.
Maybe yes, maybe no. It's possible s/he just had the right spells prepared. Those are three good spells often prepared by blaster mages, and V is definitely a blaster. It's quite possible s/he does, but it's far from "safe to conclude."

silvadel

2005-09-01, 02:19 PM

Miko doesnt necessarily have improved 2 weapon... She could be doing 4 swings with one weapon and 1 swing with the other weapon and have say 16 levels as opposed to 12.

There are some other interesting things from the sorceress battle before that...

Varsuuvius has enough hit points to go unconscious but not die from a maximized lightning bolt(60 damage)...

V(surprisingly) has between 51 and 59 hp...

Haley has at least 60 hp because she took the bolt.

BurntOfferings

2005-09-01, 03:47 PM

Miko doesnt necessarily have improved 2 weapon... She could be doing 4 swings with one weapon and 1 swing with the other weapon and have say 16 levels as opposed to 12.
She'd have to have 17 levels to get a BAB of 16 (monks have a 3/4 BAB progression). That would make her CR 17, and way out of the OoTS's league. Remember, if not for the storm, they'd have made short work of her (at least according to Durkon).

There are some other interesting things from the sorceress battle before that...

Varsuuvius has enough hit points to go unconscious but not die from a maximized lightning bolt(60 damage)...
Wow, that's a lot. A 12th level wizard with average hit points (except for a full first hit die) will have 32 hit points + (12 x Con modifier) + misc. So either V has been /really/ lucky when rolling his hit dice, he has a Con of 14 (impressive, considering his -2 racial Con modifier), or he has a Con of 12 and the Improved Toughness feat. He could have various magic items that raise his Con, of course.

Alternatively, he could have made his Reflex save and taken only 30 points of damage. A natural 20 always saves. ;)

Haley has at least 60 hp because she took the bolt.
Yep, it took five magic missiles on top of that to knock her out. Assuming average damage, that's an additional 17 or 18 points. 68 hp for a 12th level rogue is decent, but not mind-boggling. Like V, she'll either need a Con of 14, or a Con of 12 and Improved Toughness. She doesn't have that elven penalty to Con, so it's not as hard to believe.

drothgery

2005-09-01, 04:16 PM

She'd have to have 17 levels to get a BAB of 16 (monks have a 3/4 BAB progression). That would make her CR 17, and way out of the OoTS's league. Remember, if not for the storm, they'd have made short work of her (at least according to Durkon).

Can you flurry with a Monk weapon and make a secondary attack with another weapon? If so, she might have a feat that makes one of her swords a monk weapon. Improved TWF is the way to bet, though.

silvadel

2005-09-01, 04:17 PM

We we are certain ms evasion missed her save... Would be really odd for V to make it in that case -- plus the fact that while JW takes some license often enough... 21 to 29 hps plus a really lucky save would be kind of awkward.

I kind of figured V to have somewhere around 40hp so both ranges were off my expectations.

As for a level 16 being way out of a level 12s party league -- that is nuts... In a straight up battle between 6 level 12 people and a level 16 my bet would be on the 12s every day of the week...

---

BurntOfferings

2005-09-01, 04:55 PM

We we are certain ms evasion missed her save... Would be really odd for V to make it in that case -- plus the fact that while JW takes some license often enough... 21 to 29 hps plus a really lucky save would be kind of awkward.
Bah, these two events are as independent as they are random. We know Haley failed her save because she took damage (and wailed that the save DC was too high). We don't know anything about V other than he was knocked on his butt.

As for a level 16 being way out of a level 12s party league -- that is nuts... In a straight up battle between 6 level 12 people and a level 16 my bet would be on the 12s every day of the week...
Hey I'm just going by the DMG's guide to encounters and encounter levels. A 17th level Miko would be +5 over the OotS's average level. (They've usually got six members instead of four, which generally means that can handle encounters with a higher EL, but Elan did nothing but run while Durkon surrendered, cutting the group down to 4. Also, the storm was probably worth +1 to the EL). Table 3-2 on page 49 on the DMG classifies this encounter as "overpowering."

From page 50 of the DMG:

Overpowering: The PCs should run. If they don't, they will almost certainly lose.
Hmmm... Now that I think about it, this is about right. Elan, Durkon, and Belkar were out of the fight, V's effectiveness was greatly reduced, and Haley was forced into melee, where she was knocked senseless. That left Roy, who was taking a beating, and would probably be dead if Miko simply did a plain ol' full attack instead of trying to smite evil. They were clearly on the way to a TPK. So I guess you'd lose that bet. ;)

silvadel

2005-09-01, 04:58 PM

On further reflection, it doesnt surprise me as much for V to have 51 hit points... The reason is, where are V's stats?

V had 18 int at level 10... Figuring on +3 from level that means a 15 starting int...

V's dump stat is charisma -- we already saw V tell haley about the low charisma when dealing with Elan... (say 6-8 charisma)

If V had over 12 wisdom the mind flayer would have gone for V... And I think 10 wisdom is more likely.

We havent seen any major feats of strength or dexterity out of V...

This leaves a LOT of points left.... It would not surprise me if V had a 12 con (or maybe even a 14) after the elf penalty...[people tend to put an ODD numbered stat in the primary ability so it maxxes out at an even number].

---

Oh and as you said -- that wasnt a straight up battle ;)

Elethiomel

2005-09-02, 06:57 AM

Can you flurry with a Monk weapon and make a secondary attack with another weapon? If so, she might have a feat that makes one of her swords a monk weapon. Improved TWF is the way to bet, though.

Irrelevant. The art shows that Miko is wearing armour. This is probably something like a mithril breastplate (which is considered light armour so she can keep her Evasion). Monks in armour cannot flurry.

Improved TWF is almost certainly what she has.

Elethiomel

2005-09-02, 07:01 AM

[...] That left Roy, who was taking a beating, and would probably be dead if Miko simply did a plain ol' full attack instead of trying to smite evil.[...]

The Smite Evil attack isn't a separate type of attack, it replaces a normal melee attack. A paladin can full attack, and smite evil on any (or all, if she has enough Smites/day) of those attacks.

(This is especially useful for those monsters where only the second or third attack has any significant chance to miss, thereby nigh-guaranteeing one extra hit and also the extra smite damage.)

BurntOfferings

2005-09-02, 01:51 PM

The Smite Evil attack isn't a separate type of attack, it replaces a normal melee attack. A paladin can full attack, and smite evil on any (or all, if she has enough Smites/day) of those attacks.
Well, it's not so much that she chose to smite evil as she chose to smite evil dramatically. Notice the wakizashi is gone and she's wielding her katana two-handed? No self-respecting samuri would simply drop a weapon in the mud, right? So she must've used a move action to put it away (Quickdraw only works for drawing weapons, not sheathing them). That left her with only a standard action, and thus a single attack. Roy was saved Miko's sense of the dramatic. Elan would understand.

Elethiomel

2005-09-03, 08:04 PM

Well, it's not so much that she chose to smite evil as she chose to smite evil dramatically. Notice the wakizashi is gone and she's wielding her katana two-handed? No self-respecting samuri would simply drop a weapon in the mud, right? So she must've used a move action to put it away (Quickdraw only works for drawing weapons, not sheathing them). That left her with only a standard action, and thus a single attack. Roy was saved Miko's sense of the dramatic. Elan would understand.

Indeed, good point!

jack-skelington-

2005-09-06, 05:10 PM

see it from mikos perspective,to fight 6 12th level characters is an encoucter for at least 16 level characters.

MarcusVitel

2005-09-10, 03:22 AM

I´d guess Belkar is chaotic neutral with like 6-8 WIS which makes him go killing without thinking about the consequences. Maybe he isnt evil, he just cant see he can do more than solving problems with his daggers.

What made me think about this was the strip where V. casts Ows Wisdom on him. He didnt sound "evil" with wisdom increase anymore.

Artemis_Entreri

2005-09-10, 08:48 AM

oh hes evil. his gained wisdom simply allowed him a measure of forthought and self control so it wasnt as apparent.

Priceless_Ming

2005-09-10, 11:43 AM

Sorry, I didn't catch your name.

DUDE! You executed a paladin in his sleep. I'm not gonna tell you how to play your alignment, but that was an undeniably evil act.

It's hard cheese that he's gonna keep chasing you, that sucks for you, but man...

(Holds his head)

I can't believe your DM didn't smack the crap outta your alignment. Jeez.

I think the Thor's free-wheeling lightning dealing probably safely asserts his chaotic nature. To be fair, if OotS uses the EBCS rules, he can be any alignment and worship a CG deity.

Wow, you killed a paladin in his sleep. Wow.

Rethorn

2005-09-11, 10:38 PM

I think that Int (as well as Charisma) might be Durkon's dump stat, and he might have decent str because like Roy said, he'd be a decent warrior if he had a better head for numbers.

Lasombra

2005-09-12, 12:19 PM

Elethiomel

2005-09-12, 01:05 PM

I think V could simple be using Dispell Magic Spells as counters, as they can be used even if you cant identify the spell your opponants casting...

I dont think V would have an int higher than 18 yet, as v is nowhere near int 18, possibly has a higher con now to assist with concentration checks as v had a few issues with the bandit ambush.

It is established (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=31) that V has at least 18 intelligence. (at the time of the strip, V had 18. What's happened since can only increase intelligence, unless it's int drain, and that can be fixed through the handy expedient of Durkon).

Beamup

2005-09-12, 04:59 PM

Well, as of #320, we know for a fact that V, at least, is level 12 exactly. (That being the level for which a Fireball costs 360 gp.) It's no longer speculation.

silvadel

2005-09-12, 06:33 PM

I would also figure that at level 12 V upped int by one and probably now has an int of 19 as opposed to the 18 shown in the comic a couple of levels ago...

Runolfr

2005-09-13, 02:15 PM

It occurs to me that we haven't even attempted to geek-out over Xykon and Redcloak, yet.

We know Redcloak has at least 9 levels of Cleric and a Wisdom of 15+, since he was able to cast Slay Living.

Xykon claims to be a Sorcerer rather than a Wizard. What's the highest-level spell we've seen him use? Symbol of Pain is level 5; have we seen anything higher?

Leveller

2005-09-14, 06:49 PM

Miko has no ranks in spellcraft.

Lasombra

2005-09-15, 06:08 AM

the minimum you need to become a lich is level 12 wizard, so its likely that he simply wasnt using his higher level slots, maybe saving them up for a big spanking.

Kish

2005-09-15, 06:16 AM

the minimum you need to become a lich is level 12 wizard
*cough cough* He's a sorcerer.

Elethiomel

2005-09-15, 07:26 AM

the minimum you need to become a lich is level 12 wizard, so its likely that he simply wasnt using his higher level slots, maybe saving them up for a big spanking.

Wrong. "The character must be able to cast spells and have a caster level of 11th or higher". Oh, and have the Craft Wondrous Item feat.

Alfryd

2005-10-14, 11:00 AM

*Bump*

After some casual perusal of the previous thread(s), I've decided I might as well toss in my own evaluation of stats/alignment. I realise they will be utterly incompatible with all the verified observations of what the characters are capable of. I'm basing these more on personality observations than rule interpretation, just to provoke some argument. I have neither the attention span or mental consistency to precisely catalogue how the players need to be statted to satisfy game mechanics. So if you find yourself in broad agreement with most of my analysis, I will be quite frankly horrified. That's not the point.
Onward.

Roy:
Str: 17
Con: 16
Dex: 12
Int: 15
Wis: 8
Cha: 7
Lawful Good

I know Roy is party leader, but he isn't actually particularly good at negotiation, and tends to be inarticulate and tongue-tied when faced with a difficult social situation. After all, he's basically a Nerd on Steroids. I think he leads more by virtue of ability to coordinate and understand tactics, a trait the others recognise. So, low charisma, high int, (but not *very* high. I've never seen him do anything stunningly bright.) He also tends to be a little too trusting and naive on occasion, so I marked down his wisdom slightly. He doesn't seem to wear vastly heavy armour, so dexterity might have some use to him.

Durkon:
Str: 15
Con: 14
Dex: 12
Int: 11
Wis: 14
Cha: 8
Lawful Good

You might argue about the alignment, but his devotion to duty does seem awfully lawful, and he's generally good-natured. I know that as a cleric he really should have better wisdom, I just can't bring myself to award anything higher to somebody FRIGHTENED OF TREES. He tends to pursuade people by force of reason rather than personality, so I knocked down cha and upped int slightly. Dexterity? I dunno, it felt strangely right.

Elan:
Str: 12
Con: 13
Dex: 12
Int: 6
Wis: 11
Cha: 16
Chaotic Good

Let's face it, Elan is a weed. In combat terms, an utter waste of space. He's a nancing pretty-boy who has only survived by virtue of his charm, good looks, and invulnerable optimism. Higher wis than int seems unintuitive, but he actually says surprisingly observant things every now and then. And when confronted on his acts of sheer idiocy, it's not that he 'couldn't see' it was a mistake, it just never occured to him things would turn out that, in retrospect, blindingly obvious way. A bard of very little brain.

Haley:
Str: 12
Con: 11
Dex: 16
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 13
Chaotic Good

Haley just seems a well-rounded character, in every sense of the word. She has no outstanding defects of ability, but no outstanding competences apart from her roguely duties. Her apparent greed, as we know, is founded in nobler, or at least more desperate, motives.

Vaarsuvius:
Str: 7
Con: 13
Dex: 12
Int: 17
Wis: 8
Cha: 9
Lawful Neutral

Although marginally loyal to the party, V's prime directive is otherwise the pursuit of knowledge, and while far from actively malicious, neither does s/he go out of h/is/er way to protect others from unnecessary danger. An evident self-discipline and focus, however, betoken lawful mentality. Although fairly caustic and self-important (wis and cha,) s/he has occasionally demonstrated vital and impressive quick-thinking. I also upped con and dex slightly, as being useful for any feeble, lightly-armoured wizard.

Belkar:
Str: 12
Con: 14
Dex: 15
Int: 7
Wis: 7
Cha: 10
Chaotic Evil

Alignment was always obvious enough, as were his mental capacities. It's just never made much sense to me to give halflings strength and con realistically matching that of larger contemporaries. Bulk matters, especially with weapon restrictions. Apart from that, he seems almost rogueish in his obsession with pointy objects and probably employs a cut & run fighting style with great effect. Ultimately, only sheer efficiency at killing things keeps him in the party, but he's not ascerbic in conversation.

Miko:
Str: 14
Con: 12
Dex: 16
Int: 14
Wis: 11
Cha: 16
Lawful Good

Lightly armoured, highly mobile, high dex, highly lethal, high str, relies on avoiding damage and immune to disease, so average con. She executes elaborate tactics flawlessly, nor is she subject to lawful stupid syndrome. She seems to be horribly inexperienced when it comes to party politics, and never casts conventional divine spells, but she has good saves and presumably decent Lay on Hands. So, contrary to appearances, I think lacking in wisdom, she conceals a formidable charisma. The alternative would be to declare her incompetent, which seems unfair.

Kyle

2005-10-14, 11:54 AM

With Roy with such low mental abilities, why would the mindflayer go for him instead of V?

Wrecan

2005-10-14, 12:27 PM

Roy: Str: 17 Con: 16 Dex: 12 Int: 15 Wis: 8 Cha: 7

You've given Roy the second lowest sum total of mental stats. Why would the mind flayer have attacked him over, say Haley?

He would have above average in each of the stats. I don't see why you think he has low charisma.

Durkon: Str: 15 Con: 14 Dex: 12 Int: 11 Wis: 14 Cha: 8

I'd put his wisdom higher. His fear of trees stems from ignorance (low Int), not lack of wisdom. He exhibits very high wisdom in that he seems to be the only level-headed guy in the bunch.

Elan: Str: 12 Con: 13 Dex: 2 Int: 6 Wis: 11 Cha: 16

Elan has an 18 Charisma, which has been stated several times. And he has never been clumsy, except the one time he rolled a 4. And that was the dice, not the Dex. He wouldn't weild a rapier unless his Dex exceeded his Strength. he would have learned at least that much in bard camp. Plus he deftly fights Nale to a draw.

Haley: Str: 12 Con: 11 Dex: 16 Int: 14 Wis: 14 Cha: 13

Man, you have an optimistic view of Haley! 12 Strength?! She doesn't even have a melee weapon. Strength is clearly her dump stat. Wisdom 14?! Intelligence 14?! How?

Vaarsuvius: Str: 7 Con: 13 Dex: 12 Int: 17 Wis: 8 Cha: 9

V states clearly she has an 18 Int, and it may have increased since then. And she has stated that Charisma was her dump stat. Her wisdom has to be higher than her Charisma.

Orzel

2005-10-14, 01:06 PM

My guesses on the tiers for each Ability (As if the party is somewhat balanced)

Ability:
High Modifer 18+
Med Positive Modifier 14-17
Positive Modifier 12-13
Zero Modifier 10-11
Negative Modifier 9-

Str:
Roy
Durkon & Miko
Belkar
Haley & Elan
V

Roy is the tank. Durkon, Miko, and Belkar are support attackers. The rest don't rely on it

Dex:
Haley
Belkar, Elan & Miko
V
Roy
Durkon

Haley is obvious(archer). Belkar, Miko, and Elan seem to have good movement and control. V is running on racial mods. Roy and Durkon rely on armor.

Con:
No one
Roy & Belkar & Durkon
Haley & Elan
Miko
V

Roy, Belkar, and Durkon use it. Miko probably dumped Con. And the rest are fragile.

Int:
V
Roy & Haley
Belkar
Durkon
Elan and Miko.

V, Roy, Haley, and Belkar are the only ones that show intelligence. Durkon runs on Wisdom.

Wis:
Durkon
Miko
Haley
Roy & Elan & V
Belkar

Durkon and Miko rely on it. The rest do not care. Double for Belkar.

Cha:
Elan
Miko
Haley
V & Roy
Belkar & Durkon

Baslcally

Roy is a typical "smart melee fighter" High Str and Con. Med Int.

Haley is a "rounded archer rogue". She hopes to rid rid of foes from far.

Belkar is the "I fight but I'm no fighter" warrior. All good physical abilities are dumped the leftover to the mental.

V is the "Cast or die" wizard. V's only option is arcane mage since he or she evened out all hi or hers other abilities to mediocre at best.

Elan a typical support bard. Get Dex and Cha to 16+ and sing.

Durkon is fighter cleric. He's is similar in build to Roy but swapped Int for Wis and drained Str to boost it.

Miko is the "Dodge or die" warrior. She relies on AC and saves to live.

Kish

2005-10-14, 03:36 PM

The Giant said Roy has a very good Int, a very good Wis, and a decent Charisma. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1105422121 ;start=200#200).

Durkon has to have a Wisdom of at least 16 to cast Heal, and a positive Charisma modifier to Turn Undead.

Alfryd

2005-10-14, 03:44 PM

You've given Roy the second lowest sum total of mental stats. Why would the mind flayer have attacked him over, say Haley?
No idea. He just doesn't behave as brightly as V.

I don't see why you think he has low charisma.
Because whenever someone confronts him with a tough social problem (typically trusting Elan,) he bumbles, wedges both feet in his mouth and then proceeds to complain about it.

I'd put his wisdom higher. His fear of trees stems from ignorance (low Int)...
Bzzt. Try again. Wisdom is a function of general knowledge and experience, intelligence of the ability to deduce things logically. His deduction of Miko's non-malevolence was certainly an example of overall smarts, but it didn't seem conclusive to me.

Elan has an 18 Charisma, which has been stated several times... V states clearly she has an 18 Int, and it may have increased since then... and she has stated that Charisma was her dump stat.
That would be important if I paid attention.

Plus he deftly fights Nale to a draw.
I see your point. But he does seem to end up injured too often for someone with a decent AC dex bonus.

Man, you have an optimistic view of Haley! 12 Strength?! She doesn't even have a melee weapon. Strength is clearly her dump stat. Wisdom 14?! Intelligence 14?! How?
I may be off the mark here, but intelligence is generally a useful stat for rogues, and realistically a certain amount of strength is needed for archery. She's quite level headed and reasonably devious. You recall those pebbles in the division of loot? Some characters are just born with unfairly favourable stats. You might want to knock a point or two off wisdom for the sake of cha. Up to you.

[V's] wisdom has to be higher than her Charisma.
On reflection, that's probably true. 12/8, perhaps?

Prince_Azar

2005-10-14, 03:49 PM

Put Durkan's Wisdom back up, as noted earlier, he's using more powerful spells.

Wrecan

2005-10-14, 05:20 PM

[Roy] just doesn't behave as brightly as V.

V has an 18 Int. Roy should have about a 16. His father thought he would make a good wizard. Everybody in the group, even Belkar, respects Roy's intelligence.

whenever someone confronts [Roy] with a tough social problem (typically trusting Elan,) he bumbles, wedges both feet in his mouth and then proceeds to complain about it.

Other than him getting tongue-tied around Miko (which is caused by good role-playing... er, love), I have no idea what you're talking about. When did Roy get in trouble in a social situation?

Moreover, the entire group obeys his commands, despite the fact that half his party is chaotically aligned! (Belkar, Elan and Haley)

Wisdom is a function of general knowledge and experience, intelligence of the ability to deduce things logically.

No. From the SRD: "Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition."

It has nothing to do with his knowledge, experience of deductive reasoning powers. It has to do with intuition, willpower and perception. He is a dwarf and was taught to fear trees. It's his one weakness. It doesn't give him a low Wisdom and certainly not a low Intelligence. It's a personality quirk and one that doesn't translate to ability scores.

[Elan] does seem to end up injured too often for someone with a decent AC dex bonus.

He's gotten hurt three times. Once he was ganged up on by ninja. Once he was betrayed by his twin brother. Once he separated his shoulder hauling a dragon's hoard.

He managed to tumble unscathed through an army of goblins. He used Weapon Finesse to fight his brother to a standstill. He can stand on one hand while playing paddleball, balancing a squirrel, a lantern and stick witha roller skate. I think he's pretty agile.

realistically a certain amount of strength is needed for archery.

The only strength needed for archery in D&D (and thus in the OOTSiverse) is the strength to lift the bow. As for intelligence, I've never seen her use it, and she doesn't even have any ranks in the Ride Skill.

But I'll concede the Intelligence for Haley. She is certainly devious.

Devils_Advocate

2005-10-14, 06:02 PM

Alfryd, a few criticisms:

It's just never made much sense to me to give halflings strength and con realistically matching that of larger contemporaries. Bulk matters, especially with weapon restrictions.
You have to remember that the same Strength stats don't mean the same thing for creatures of different sizes. Smaller creatures carry smaller loads and wield smaller weapons than their larger counterparts. The differences may not be directly proportional to volume, but nor should they. That said, please feel free to ignore the following paragraph...

[Physics geekery]It is often stated that the tiny ant can carry many times its own size. What you may not realize is that this not because ants have spectacular strength for such tiny creatures, as one might assume to be the case, but because of how a creature's strength and mass relate to its size. The mass of an object of a given density is directly proportional to the space it takes up: its volume, or distance cubed. But a creature's strength is proportional to the area of the cross section of its muscles, or distance squared. Thus the ratio of strength to volume is proportional to the inverse of distance (height, weight, or depth), and so smaller creatures are stronger in proportion to their size than larger creatures, though less strong absolutely. Further, when one considers that the ratio of mass to strength also increases with size, smaller creatures clearly have even still more advantage; they are less weighed down by the mass of their own bodies. Beyond a certain size, even an animal made of pure muscle would be too large to move its own body! Now, given this, blah blah blah yadda yadda yadda...[/Physics geekery]

I agree that it's pretty screwy that a gnome can take more punishment than an elf. I would at least intuitively expect that if you hit each one with a sword the same number of times and just as hard, the much smaller one would be the worse for it.

Bzzt. Try again. Wisdom is a function of general knowledge and experience, intelligence of the ability to deduce things logically.
"Bzzt" yourself. If Wisdom measures knowledge, then why is your Int modifier used for Knowledge skills instead of your Wis modifier, hmm? Animals often have good Wisdom. Do they have a deep, intellectual understanding of the world, or a primal awareness of their surroundings and well-developed instincts that are very useful for survival, but in no way inconsistent with a fear of the unknown, or with not knowing much?

No, as far as I'm concerned:
Int = book smarts (learning, memory, abstraction, logic)
Cha = street smarts (people skills, intuition)
Wis = common sense (attentiveness, willpower, rationality)

I'm especially convinced that Charisma is really quick thinking and intuition, the ability to just pull things out of your butt and somehow amazingly (at least to other people) have them work out, even though you may not fully understand how you just did what you did yourself. It's what allows you to use things even if you don't consciously understand how they work; that applies to activating magic devices blindly, and it certainly applies to getting people to do what you want. :P

Others have noted that the stats you gave are inconsistent with things we already know about the characters. I myself, however, will refrain from repeating a criticism you made yourself before you even began estimating stats, as that would rather be missing (one of) your point(s). ;)

Alfryd

2005-10-15, 08:41 AM

...Roy should have about a 16 [int]
If this makes you happy, by all means.

Other than him getting tongue-tied around Miko (which is caused by good role-playing... er, love)...
Not the point. He's much more articulate toward Miko than toward the rest of the group when they call him on his... favouritism? He fails to adequately anticipate their reactions as people. Vaarsuvius. Elan. Belkar Belkar Belkar. You know there's trouble brewing.

...When did Roy get in trouble in a social situation?
Lemme see. Assumes that the half-orc barbarian is the linear guild leader. Has no explanation for returning late to rescue Elan. Assumes 'honey' is the correct way to address female paladins. These had no great consequences, as he was among people at least pretending to be friends, but they show a dire lack of ability in anticipating people's reactions and character. Low. cha.

Moreover, the entire group obeys his commands, despite the fact that half his party is chaotically aligned! (Belkar, Elan and Haley)
It is just conceivable, they rationally recognise he has the best ability to get them out of a tough scrape alive, if they listen to him. Charisma is not required for leadership once the group actually know eachother. And if you don't have the right stuff, no degree of charisma will substitute.

No. From the SRD: "Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition."
Good 'practical knowledge' (which is the meaningful definition of wisdom,) will certainly help you keep your head in a stressful situation, it includes everyday knowledge as a subset, it improves your ability to notice anomalous situations and allows you to make useful deductions offhand. Hence, willpower, common sense, perception and intuition.

It has nothing to do with his knowledge, experience of...
Wisdom is generally thought of as something that comes with age, so experience is certainly a factor. See below for more detail.

...deductive reasoning powers.
I said intelligence is deductive (well, technically also creative,) reasoning ability, not wisdom.

...He is a dwarf and was taught to fear trees. It's his one weakness. It doesn't give him a low Wisdom and certainly not a low Intelligence. It's a personality quirk and one that doesn't translate to ability scores.
Actually, the real explanation is that this a running gag and probably has no relevance to game mechanics. I wouldn't call an 11 low intelligence.

He managed to tumble unscathed through an army of goblins.
The word here is 'tumble.'

He used Weapon Finesse to fight his brother to a standstill.
Weren't we over this?

...He can stand on one hand while playing paddleball, balancing a squirrel, a lantern and stick witha roller skate. I think he's pretty agile...
No comment.

The only strength needed for archery in D&D (and thus in the OOTSiverse) is the strength to lift the bow.
The inadequacies of the D&D system are for another topic.

As for intelligence, I've never seen her use it, and she doesn't even have any ranks in the Ride Skill.
But I'll concede the Intelligence for Haley. She is certainly devious.
Now I am confused.

I agree that it's pretty screwy that a gnome can take more punishment than an elf. I would at least intuitively expect that if you hit each one with a sword the same number of times and just as hard, the much smaller one would be the worse for it.
Quite true. Of course, in reality, one solid stroke with a sword will usually kill you, regardless of bulk, end of story, so hit points would be almost irrelevant. Hmm. Never mind.

"Bzzt" yourself. If Wisdom measures knowledge, then why is your Int modifier used for Knowledge skills instead of your Wis modifier, hmm?
Because you're applying existing knowledge to a (theoretically) novel situation. I.e, making a deduction.
Wisdom, knowledge, and intelligence are linked, but none identical. To sum things up, Knowledge allows intelligence to distil wisdom. The distinction between wisdom and knowledge is that wisdom is useful, knowledge is merely accurate. Knowledge may be trivial, and wisdom may not even be strictly true, insofar as it consists of useful generalisations that cover a broader range of situations than the data from which it was derived. Well, that may somewhat technical, but you get the general notion.

Animals often have good Wisdom.
They have instincts, if that's what you mean. Which basically boils down to a hard-coded form of 'useful knowledge.' But that depends on whether you consider something innate and inborn to be knowledge at all. The D&D system is probably imperfect on this point. Bear in mind that 'fear of the unknown' can be a very useful piece of general knowledge.

I'm especially convinced that Charisma is really quick thinking and intuition, the ability to just pull things out of your butt and somehow amazingly (at least to other people) have them work out, even though you may not fully understand how you just did what you did yourself.
It's what allows you to use things even if you don't consciously understand how they work; that applies to activating magic devices blindly, and it certainly applies to getting people to do what you want.
Not really. Many great artists, scientists and writers have had astonishing powers of intuition and/or quick-thinking and were also hopelessly socially inept. The former relate to subconscious intelligence/wisdom. Charisma revolves around the ability to predict human behaviour, partially on the basis of experience, empathy, picking up cues like body language and voice tone and, of course, how buff you are. It's aided by intelligence and wisdom, but it's a field so demanding it fairly deserves a category unto itself. It's just been applied to proficiencies where it really has no rightful business.

Others have noted that the stats you gave are inconsistent with things we already know about the characters.
I myself, however, will refrain from repeating a criticism you made yourself before you even began estimating stats, as that would rather be missing (one of) your point(s).
Curiously, that sounded something like criticism. ;)

Renloth

2005-10-15, 10:26 AM

Charisma revolves around the ability to predict human behaviour, partially on the basis of experience, empathy, picking up cues like body language and voice tone and, of course, how buff you are.

I'm just curious, but how then is your Charisma the base ability for Use Magic Device?

As it stands, I'm more prone to accepting the answer of the poster before you.

In the end however, I think it is a merging of the two ideas. It represents both social grace and reading people, but also the quick manipulation of sitauations with words.

Pesi

2005-10-15, 11:40 AM

*pops his head around the door*

My 2 cents: I think Miko is lvl 16, the reason being #170 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=170) -> #189 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=189)

Wrecan

2005-10-16, 04:44 PM

[Roy's] much more articulate toward Miko than toward the rest of the group when they call him on his... favouritism? He fails to adequately anticipate their reactions as people. Vaarsuvius. Elan. Belkar Belkar Belkar. You know there's trouble brewing.
Lemme see. Assumes that the half-orc barbarian is the linear guild leader. Has no explanation for returning late to rescue Elan. Assumes 'honey' is the correct way to address female paladins. These had no great consequences, as he was among people at least pretending to be friends, but they show a dire lack of ability in anticipating people's reactions and character. Low. cha.
It is just conceivable, they rationally recognise he has the best ability to get them out of a tough scrape alive, if they listen to him. Charisma is not required for leadership once the group actually know eachother. And if you don't have the right stuff, no degree of charisma will substitute.

Which begs the question of how they learned to trust his judgment when they didn't know one another. Charisma. Charisma is the force of personality. Charisma is what allows you to continue in leadership even when you say dumb things. That's why Charisma is a stat for use magic item and the priimary stat for sorcerers. It's the force of personality.

Good 'practical knowledge' (which is the meaningful definition of wisdom,) will certainly help you keep your head in a stressful situation, it includes everyday knowledge as a subset

No, it doesn't. Knowledge (Local History) is Intelligence-based. Knowledge (Nature) is Intelligence-based. You are quite simply wrong that Wisdom is the stat that encompasses knowledge.

it improves your ability to notice anomalous situations

But it doesn't govern what it is you think is anomolous. If you see an angel in Hades, it requires Knowledge (the planes), an Intelligence-based skill, to realize something is amiss. Otherwise, you won't realize the angel is an angel. Only then should you roll your Spot (Wis) check.

Wisdom is generally thought of as something that comes with age, so experience is certainly a factor.

Wrong. Wisdom becomes more useful with experience. You make the mistake of confusing game terms with dictionary definitions.

The inadequacies of the D&D system are for another topic.

If you are unwilling to even accept the OOTSiverse as defined (ie, using nonsensical D&D rules), I'm not sure why you felt the need to contribute to this thread. The whole point of the thread is to determine how the characters fit into D&D stats with all their internal contradictions and irrationality.

Quite simply, in D&D and OOTS, archery requires no strength. Rules trump common sense.

Kish

2005-10-16, 07:11 PM

Alfryd

2005-10-19, 03:55 AM

I'm just curious, but how then is your Charisma the base ability for Use Magic Device?

As it stands, I'm more prone to accepting the answer of the poster before you.
It shouldn't be. But if I had to guess, I'd say it was done for balance reasons so as not to overstress intelligence.

...the quick manipulation of sitauations with words.
Ah, that actually makes a certain amount of sense. *Language*, yes. But don't wizards and clerics say the magic words?

Which begs the question of how they learned to trust his judgment when they didn't know one another.
I don't have On the Origin of PCs, so perhaps someone could fill in the blanks here, but it is possible he just made the most intelligent suggestions to the group, which, in the event turned out to be what they should have done in situation X. You don't need to be glib or suave in order to have good ideas.

Charisma is what allows you to continue in leadership even when you say dumb things.
By that logic, Elan would lead the group.

That's why Charisma is a stat for use magic item and the priimary stat for sorcerers. It's the force of personality.
You're saying surly, beer-swilling dwarven berserkers lack 'force of personality?' I would politely beg to differ.

You are quite simply wrong that Wisdom is the stat that encompasses knowledge.
For the third and final time, I never said that wisdom encompasses knowledge. I said it is a subset of knowledge, or, if you prefer, a property of certain kinds of knowledge. Specifically, a piece of knowledge exhibits wisdom if it covers a wider variety of situations than normal knowledge. For example.

Knowledge: You have been hit by monsters on many occasions when your cleric had already exhausted his spell repertoire, almost resulting in your death.
Knowledge: On one occasion, your cleric has been wounded into negative HP and barely stabilised in time.
Wisdom: It's a good idea to carry healing salves/potions and try to have a secondary healer.

That's a fairly basic example, but the point is that this is knowledge, not *directly* obvious from observations, but that will serve you in a wide variety of situations. In other words, wisdom.

But it doesn't govern what it is you think is anomolous. If you see an angel in Hades, it requires Knowledge (the planes), an Intelligence-based skill, to realize something is amiss. Otherwise, you won't realize the angel is an angel. Only then should you roll your Spot (Wis) check.
I don't see the relevance of this. The point is that wisdom can contribute on the basis of general knowledge, i.e, that creatures from one plane rarely belong in another. Though an angel in hades would be so glaringly obvious this may not be the best example.

Wrong. Wisdom becomes more useful with experience.
Does strength simply becomes more useful when you regularly bench-press?

...The whole point of the thread is to determine how the characters fit into D&D stats with all their internal contradictions and irrationality.
You cannot square anything with a contradiction.

Sc00by

2005-10-19, 08:00 AM

::)

Sorry but Alfryd posts some numbers with the following comment:

"I'm basing these more on personality observations than rule interpretation, just to provoke some argument. I have neither the attention span or mental consistency to precisely catalogue how the players need to be statted to satisfy game mechanics."

And then tries to rubbish anyone that disagrees with him... Even dismissing people saying : Well we know this stat is 18 because we've been told it!

We have a word for people like that where I come from. It's Troll... :(

Lasombra

2005-10-19, 08:09 AM

hehehe Yeah, true.

So, where were we?

Lets see then -

Further Further Updated Estimates:

Roy - Fighter 12 (Lawful Good)
Attributes:
Str 14+ (i cant really see him as having any less)
Dex 10 or less, i figure this is his dump stat, as every character has one.
Con 14-15 maybe lower, he gets most of his hitpoints from being a fighter. which is still a lot!
Int 14ish. this is possibly the second highest behind V.
Wis 14ish. he needs wisdom to ba able to make Wise decisions, he is a leader as well.
Cha again around the 14 mark. might be lower, but doubtful.

Feats (6+7): Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword) he might even have focus (greatclub) as well
Items: Bag of Tricks, starmetal, cursed crown of Xykon, broken sword

Haley - Rogue 12 (Chaotic Good)
Attributes:
Str 8-9 strength is her dump stat, which is the reason she keeps out of melee.
Dex 17+
Con 14 this is the minimum she needs to be able to cop a maximised lightning bolt. unless she was incredibly lucky.
Int 13+ A lot of Rouges have reasonable Int as this helps with Search checks and disable device etc.
Wis I dont really have any refrence... i suspect its got a positive mod though.
Cha Same here. She is able to bluff belkar though... but i dont imagine its too dificult. and she temporarily takes command of the party.

Feats (6): Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Many Shot
Items: 8 Bags of Holding
Skills: Knowledge (whatever fiends and daemons come under...) and Craft Alchemy. She has enough to know what overrides the damage reduction of Fiends and Daemons (re: Nadine) and just so happens to have the correct arrows on her.

Belkar - Ranger 11 / Barbarian 1 (Chaotic Evil)
Attributes:
Str 14+ hes a combat bunny. I wouldnt be suprised at all if it was higher. also, he does one heluva lot of damage with a pair of daggers.
Dex 16+ as a halfling, he needs it. and as he only wears light armour as well.
Con 14+ He does mention he has quite a few hitpoints when the party loses durkon.
Int 8 this is obviously one of his dump stats.
Wis 10 Minimum he needed to be able to use the Scrolls to save Elan
Cha 10+ No-one has ever accused belkar of being un-charismatic, he might even need it to be able to generally lie to people

Feats (5+5): Track, Two-Weapon Fighting, Endurance, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus Daggers?
Items: Ring of Jumping +20
Skills - No Survival, or Spot

Vaarsuvius - Wizard 12 (Neutral Good? Lawful Neutral?)
Attributes:
Str 10 possibly less.
Dex 13+ maybe higher, she is an elf after all.
Con 14+ she also seems to have higher hitpoints than normal, and has a reasonable concentration modifier.
Int 19+ she has WISH in her spellbook. that means she needs to learn it in order to scribe it. even if she doesnt have the requisite level to cast it yet.
Wis 13+ for no reason other than: I cant think where else she would put her points?!?
Cha 8-9 she has a low charisma, thats also established.
Feats (5+3): Scribe Scroll, Improved Counterspell (or makes heavy use of Dispells, which we know she memorises anyway)
Items: Ring of Wizardry (probably affects level 3 spells)

Durkon - Cleric 12 (Lawful Good)
Attributes:
Str 14+ he could make a good warrior, so he would need some.
Dex 10 hes wearing extensive armour, i cant imagine a dwarf having a high dex either.
Con 16+ Dwarf...
Int 13+ he is able to reason his way through a situation, but not that well, also he has low skill points. (not enough ranks in Knowledge: Religion)
Wis 16+ a no-brainer really, as a caster though i would suspect its 17-18 however.
Cha 8 or lower. he is able to turn undead though, so i wouldnt be supprised he's bolstered it with feats.
Feats (5): Extra turning? Improved Turning? Weapon Focus (Warhammer)?
Items: Amulet of Natural Armor

Elan - Bard 12 (Chaotic Good)
Attributes:
Str 13+ ish. hes never at the forefront, but he can fight.
Dex 15+ he can tumble like a lune, that needs at least a reasonable dex.
Con 13+ i dont really have a basis, but he does get knifed up and not die.
Int 8-9 as previously mentioned, this is the number he needs to gain 6 skill points, given he's human.
Wis 10ish he doesnt display any common sense, but i cant find a reason for it to be horrendously negative either, as he does have a few good ideas (mostly flawed by his lack of Int)
Cha 18 yep.
Feats (6): Nimble? Weapon Finesse?
Skills: Tumble, Ride ?
Items: Boots of Elvenkind

One question though - what other spells does he have? as a level 12 bard, he has access to a wide variety, including a lot of Cure spells and enchantments.

Ok, go ahead and pull it appart people! ;D

NullAshton

2005-10-19, 08:47 AM

Belkar has HORRIBLE wisdom. For belkar to use that scroll, V had to cast a wisdom-increasing spell on him. SO it would be more like, 6 or something.

Pesi

2005-10-19, 09:30 AM

I'm curious about something. How high-level do you (directed to everyone who reads this) think various characters who aren't, or haven't been from the start, members of the strip are? Miko? Sam? Sam's father? Xykon? Redcloak?

Ahh, yes; Redcloak. He's at least 9th due to the "Slay Living", and if we assume that a spell's verbal component is the spells name then he'd be 11th+ due to the +1 of "Silent Spell". (One could make an argument for "Quicken Spell" since he cast it in the middle of someone else's free action but that would make him Epic which I doubt is the case.)

One idea is that Xykon with his +2 lich-y charisma has "Leadership" and Redcloak is his cohort, which would explain the ease with which he aquires followers.

OK, I'll stop typing now.

Alfryd

2005-10-19, 10:02 AM

And then tries to rubbish anyone that disagrees with him... Even dismissing people saying : Well we know this stat is 18 because we've been told it!
I never rubbished anyone for saying 'we know X because we saw Y in the strip,' that wasn't what I was concerned with. I 'rubbished' people for saying I don't know the meaning of the words 'wisdom' or 'charisma.' I have been more than willing to concede various points to people who replied to my post(s).
Provoking argument is not neccesarily trolling if you hope to make constructive points.

...just to provoke some argument...
We have a word for people like that where I come from. It's Troll...
And the purpose of your comments would be?

Saxov

2005-10-19, 11:00 AM

Belkar has HORRIBLE wisdom. For belkar to use that scroll, V had to cast a wisdom-increasing spell on him. SO it would be more like, 6 or something.
Yes, V gave him +4 wisdom, and to use the scroll he needs a wisdom 14+.. so (14+)-4 = 10+ :)

NullAshton

2005-10-19, 11:03 AM

Meh. That's too high for Belkar, me thinks.

Orzel

2005-10-19, 11:37 AM

Well every character in the OOTS and their associates seems to have a main stat and dump stat.

Roy
Main: Str
Dump: Dex

Haley
Main: Dex
Dump: Str

Elan
Main: Cha
Dump: Int

Durkon
Main: Wis
Dump: Cha

V
Main: Int
Dump: Cha

The harder ones. These two hard mutiple dumps and mains for they are multiclass and use unique builds. They most likely have no abilities at 18+ but have 2 or 3 in the 14-17 range.

Miko
Main: Wis and Str (Miko has levels in 2 "warrior" classes that rely on Wis)
Dump: Int (Miko seems to know only of battle and law. She knows little about anything else)

Belkar
Main: Dex and Con (Dispite being in light armor and using only a d8 HD Belker never seems to get seriously injured. His AC and HP are probably near or equal to Roy)
Dump: Wis and Cha (Belkar does not seem dumb just antisocial. Very much so.)

C'mon. Everyone can't have bad Cha oor Int.

Wrecan

2005-10-19, 12:16 PM

And the purpose of your comments would be?

To convince me that further discussion with you is a waste of my time. And it worked. You may have the last word.

Lilly

2005-10-19, 02:20 PM

THe Fiary Modmother: Flaming: (v) to tell other posters that they are stupid, other insulting, and trolling behavior.

That's not allowed around here, so stop it now.

Korppis

2005-10-19, 03:00 PM

Meh. That's too high for Belkar, me thinks.

I have to agree with our kobold here; Belkar should have wisdom equal with lemming... 10 seems bith much to me.

I am not very familiar with 3,5ed; Is it possible to cast 'Owl's Wisdom' 2 times on a same character and mave the bonus stack or something?

Btw.
Haley got at least 8 ranks on "Use rope" skill, she mentioned that while tying up Linear guild's members.

Kish

2005-10-19, 03:03 PM

I have to agree with our kobold here; Belkar should have wisdom equal with lemming... 10 seems bith much to me.

Very much so, yes.

I am not very familiar with 3,5ed; Is it possible to cast 'Owl's Wisdom' 2 times on a same character and mave the bonus stack or something?

Not by the letter of the rules, but we know the Giant bends the rules when it makes it funny, we know Belkar's personality change from an Owl's Wisdom that let him use the scroll was very funny, and we know Belkar certainly doesn't have a Wisdom anywhere near average.

BurntOfferings

2005-10-19, 03:17 PM

Nice wrap-up. Just a few nit-picks and additions:

Roy - Fighter 12 (Lawful Good)
...
Feats (6+7): Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword) he might even have focus (greatclub) as wellI can't imagine Roy would burn a feat to improve his prowess with a temporary weapon. Even if he wanted to diversify his weapon selection to include a bludgeoning weapon, he'd surely pick something better than a greatclub. Improved Weapon Focus (greatsword) seems more likely. He may have put off taking Improved Weapon Specialization (greatsword), since he doesn't actually have a greatsword to apply it to at the moment. :-)

Skills: Ride (1 rank). He also seems to be pretty good at swimming; he swam through the tunnel (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=187) to the black dragon's horde without any trouble, despite wearing armor.

Haley - Rogue 12 (Chaotic Good)
Attributes:
Str 8-9 strength is her dump stat, which is the reason she keeps out of melee.Nah, this is at least a 10. Strength penalties apply to damage from bows (other than crossbows).

Int 13+ A lot of Rogues have reasonable Int as this helps with Search checks and disable device etc.Plus, a higher Int means more skill points, a rogues have LOTS of skills to choose from! ;D

Feats (6): Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Many ShotI can't imagine that Haley would invest in these feats and not take Precise Shot. Weapon Focus (shortbow) is also a possibility, but it's never been mentioned.

Items: 8 Bags of HoldingAnd a giant bag of feminine products (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=29). And two gemstones (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=123) (that her mother gave her). ;)

Skills: Knowledge (whatever fiends and daemons come under...) and Craft Alchemy.That would be Knowledge (the planes). She probably has the standard rogue skills (definitely has Search). She has no ranks in Ride. Like Roy, she apparently has no trouble swimming.

Belkar - Ranger 11 / Barbarian 1 (Chaotic Evil)
...
Feats (5+5): Track, Two-Weapon Fighting, Endurance, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon FightingWow, those are all from being a ranger. We really don't know much about Belkar's feats, do we?

Weapon Focus Daggers?Seems likely. I'd also throw in Skill Focus (Jump) as a possibility, since he's always bouncing all over the place (even before getting the ring).

Items: Ring of Jumping +20He called dibs on the amulet (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=11), but we don't know if he got it or not.

Skills - No Survival, or SpotBut definitely Hide and Move Silently. Probably Ride as well (unlike Durkon, Haley, and V, he has no trouble with his new mount (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=140)). Jumping is almost a given. Climbing also seems likely, just because Climbing, like Jumping, is useful for getting close enough to victims to harvest their kidneys.

Favored enemies: Belkar would have three. Various humanoid races seem to be the most likely choices (Humanoid (reptilian) (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=44) and Humanoid (halfling) (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=125) come to mind), but Belkar is so psychotic that it's hard to say with any certainty.

Vaarsuvius - Wizard 12 (Neutral Good? Lawful Neutral?)
Attributes:
Int 19+ she has WISH in her spellbook. that means she needs to learn it in order to scribe it. even if she doesnt have the requisite level to cast it yet.It's been mentioned before that V probably doesn't really have time stop, meteor swarm, or wish (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=49). He's no longer looking in his spellbook when listing those spells and is clearly frustrated with Zz'Dtri. It seems likely that he's only naming powerful spells to see if Zz'Dtri is willing to trade at all. Also, he hadn't yet gained a level since the mind flayer incident (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=31), so his Int at the time that he mentioned wish was still 18. It might be higher now, but we can't be sure, so 18+.

Feats (5+3): Scribe Scroll, Improved Counterspell (or makes heavy use of Dispells, which we know she memorises anyway)We don't have a good idea about V's feats, either. For his wizard bonus feats, he probably has item creation feats, since we've never seen him use a metamagic feat even once (Spell Mastery is also a possibility). Spell Focus (evocations) and Greater Spell Focus (evocations) also seem likely. As for Improved Counterspell, two of the three spells V counterspells (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=166) are ones which he prepares as a matter of course. Also, he says "Counterspell!" not "Improved Counterspell!" as we would expect if he were using a feat.

Skills: Concentration and Spellcraft (a necessity for wizards). Probably Knowledge (arcana). Quite possibly a number of other Knowledge skills as well. But not Ride. I can't decide if he has Search (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=30) or not.

Durkon - Cleric 12 (Lawful Good)
...
Feats (5): Extra turning? Improved Turning?Possible. He does hate them undead so (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=16).

Weapon Focus (Warhammer)?Maybe, maybe not, but he almost definitely has Martial Weapon Proficiency (warhammer). Since it's a martial weapon, Durkon wouldn't automatically be proficient with it. He'd either have to use a feat or select War as one of his domains. We don't know what domains Durkon selected, or even what domains the OotS-iverse Thor gives access to, so it's impossible to say.

Elan - Bard 12 (Chaotic Good)
Attributes:
Str 13+ ish. hes never at the forefront, but he can fight.I assumed that his fighting abilities came from Weapon Finesse, but I can't find the comic that shows he has it. Maybe I'm confused. :-[
Cha 18 yep.Make that 18+. He's gotten a stat increase since the streaking incident. He may have put it here.

Feats (6): Nimble? Weapon Finesse?Versatile Performer? Skill Focus (Perform)?

Skills: Tumble, Ride ?Yep, he's got Ride. And Perform (lute) of course. And Move Silently and Hide (he's one of the sneaky party members).

One question though - what other spells does he have? as a level 12 bard, he has access to a wide variety, including a lot of Cure spells and enchantments.Silent Image and Disguise Self are the only ones that I remember him using.

Hey, did the Giant go back and change panel 5 of #217 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=217)? I'm sure that Elan used to say "Change Self" instead of "Disguise Self." I think that there was even a thread about it.

EDIT: Fixed some bad grammar and clarified a point.

Kish

2005-10-19, 03:25 PM

Also, he hasn't gained a level since the mind flayer incident (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=31),
Yes s/he has (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=124).

BurntOfferings

2005-10-19, 03:35 PM

Yes s/he has (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=124).

Irrelevant to the question at hand. I should've said "hadn't" instead of "hasn't", however. I'll fix that now. :)

Renloth

2005-10-19, 05:00 PM

Hey, did the Giant go back and change panel 3 of #217? I'm sure that Elan used to say "Change Self" instead of "Disguise Self." I think that there was even a thread about it.

I think he did, as the imfamous "Three Armed Ogre" image was corrected as well, in the same comic.

Korppis

2005-10-20, 03:46 AM

I belive that Belkar should have Weapon Finesse as one of his feats.
We know that he is a) halfling and b) seems to be more agile than strong. He uses two dagger (or halfling-sized shortswords), which qualify as finesse weapons. And also, his fighting style with all those leaps and stabs on enemys vulnerable parts looks lots like finesse fighting to me.

Wrecan

2005-10-20, 10:04 AM

I don't think weapon finesse can be used with two-weapon fighting.

BurntOfferings

2005-10-20, 10:23 AM

I don't think weapon finesse can be used with two-weapon fighting.
Nothing says that it can't be. The only restrictions are

1. It only applies to certain weapons, and

2. If you carry a shield, the shield's armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

Since a weapon in your offhand is not a shield and has no armor check penalty, then there's no problem. :)

Having said that, I'm not sure that Belkar has the feat. He may have put so many points in Strength (for kidney-harvesting purposes) that his Strength bonus is higher than his Dexterity bonus, despite racial modifiers. Perhaps future comics will provide more hints about Belkar's feat selection.

Wrecan

2005-10-20, 01:30 PM

You are right.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#weaponFinesse

At any rate, I agree with you on Strength. Belkar's doesn't appear to be all that dextrous. He definitely seems like someone who would pump up the Strength stat. I mean, lead sheets are heavy!

Devils_Advocate

2005-10-20, 06:16 PM

Belkar does seem concerned with maximizing his Jump. That would require a high Strength, especially since he's Small. (He doesn't really need to worry about that much now that he has his Ring of Jumping, but the fact that he was so enthusiastic about that item suggests that he worked to pump up his Jump modifier before he got it.)

I have to agree with our kobold here; Belkar should have wisdom equal with lemming... 10 seems bith much to me.
Well, I don't seem to have particularly good wisdom in real life. Granted, my sense of empathy isn't stunted like Belkar's; my low Wis mostly takes the form of sloth, and probably fear of change. But the same stats represent different things in different people. And I'm not especially aware of my surroundings. Anyway, I once took one of those online "What are your D&D stats?" quizes.

It said my Wis is a 10.

I was a bit surprised at first, but it got me to thinking. How wise is the average person, really? Do human beings in general seem to be particularly perceptive or to have a lot of self-control?

... I rate the possibility that Belkar has just slightly below average Wisdom as "disturbingly plausible".

Just a random note before I forget about it: I think Durdon's domains are likely Air and War.

Air because Thor's Lightning is probably Chain Lighting. Alternate explanation, however: He has some non-core domain that grants a lightning spell.

War because, now that clerics can use bladed weapons, why would he spend a Martial Weapon Proficiency on the warhammer when he could spend it on the dwarven waraxe? With the War domain, he gets free Martial Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus with his deity’s favored weapon, which is clearly the warhammer. Alternate explanation: Learning to use a warhammer was part of Durkon's training as a cleric of Thor, even though he doesn't have the War domain. Maybe they even gave him a magical one.

Discuss.

Alfryd made several good points that I hope to address. It would take quite some time to give them all the attention they deserve, however, and so I plan to do so in a future post. That doesn't mean I won't keep putting it off, of course, but I do mean to...

Jothki

2005-10-21, 01:08 AM

Air because Thor's Lightning is probably Chain Lighting. Alternate explanation, however: He has some non-core domain that grants a lightning spell.

War because, now that clerics can use bladed weapons, why would he spend a Martial Weapon Proficiency on the warhammer when he could spend it on the dwarven waraxe? With the War domain, he gets free Martial Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus with his deity’s favored weapon, which is clearly the warhammer. Alternate explanation: Learning to use a warhammer was part of Durkon's training as a cleric of Thor, even though he doesn't have the War domain. Maybe they even gave him a magical one.

Discuss.

Durkon also has a spell called Thor's Might that greatly increases his size for a few seconds, which he used against Xykon's minions.

My guess is that he has some sort of specialized Thor domain.

Saxov

2005-10-21, 03:38 AM

Durkon also has a spell called Thor's Might that greatly increases his size for a few seconds, which he used against Xykon's minions.

My guess is that he has some sort of specialized Thor domain.
MY gues is that "Thor's Might" is the name used in the Church of Thor for the Righteous Might spell (Cl 5, PHB), since isn't the might of the righteous the might of your god ?
And the spells seems to have the same effect.

thespyder

2005-10-21, 04:37 AM

Kish

2005-10-21, 04:46 AM

Deities and Demigods does not apply to the Order of the Stick's Thor. I can dig up quotes by the Giant to prove it, if you insist; he chose Thor to be an easily recognizable god human readers with no knowledge of D&D would still be able to immediately associate with lightning and valor.

Lasombra

2005-10-21, 06:29 AM

I have to agree with our kobold here; Belkar should have wisdom equal with lemming... 10 seems bith much to me.

I am not very familiar with 3,5ed; Is it possible to cast 'Owl's Wisdom' 2 times on a same character and mave the bonus stack or something?

Btw.
Haley got at least 8 ranks on "Use rope" skill, she mentioned that while tying up Linear guild's members.

It isnt possible to stack ows wisdom, as it is an enhancement bonus. the same applies to spells that reduce stats like Ray of enfeemblement as well.

Ok, 8 ranks in use rope. she has a lot of skill points spare still.

El Jaspero, the Pirate King

2005-10-21, 10:29 AM

as far as his domains read the book "deities and demi-gods" it has thor's domains which include weather and i believe strength or something of that sort to grant him "chain lightning" and "enlarge person"

To clarify Kish's answer: Deities and Demi-Gods isn't OGL, so quoting its material is off-limits for OotS. Think of this Thor as a "house-ruled" version.

Devils_Advocate

2005-10-21, 12:32 PM

As was mentioned, we don't know OOTS Thor's domains, but yeah, for all I know the Weather domain fits Thor better than than Air. Or it could be another, possibly invented domain - Thunder or Storm or something like that. Upon reflection: if Durkon had the Air domain's granted power, wouldn't he have been sent to deal with the air monsters or earth monsters instead of to the Fire Sigil? Unless they thought it was more important to have as much clerical protection from fire as possible. Hmm.

In any case, I see that Hilgya clearly has the Fire domain.

I still think Durkon's other domain is War, or at least something else that grants at least proficiency with one's deity's chosen weapon, for the reason I gave above. Thor seems like a battle god, I think. I mean, he's fighting an enemy two of the three times we see him.

I, too, assumed that Thor's Might = Righteous Might.

Moving on: As I mentioned in the sealed predictions thread (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1109876475 ;start=555#557), the ninja-y assassin would seem to have 8 levels of Shadowdancer, since he seems to think that two 30-foot shadow jumps would be easy to pull off, until the dwarf points out the flaw in that plan. Since one must be 7th level to meet the prerequisites for that prestige class, he is at least level 15. In which case, Roy is actually lucky that Elan got poisoned, since his odds of surviving a fight with a prepared, armed level 15+ opponent while lacking in equipment are rather slim. And the dwarf is probably close to that level, too, to be working with someone of that caliber. Either that or he was brought along due to valuable expert knowledge that probably makes him just as lethal anyway. (C'mon, guns and explosives trump everything!)

As Peace_Keeper argued (on the page linked above), Monk is likely the Shadowdancer's base class, since (a) it allows him to meet the PrC requirements without cross-class skill points, (b) he uses shuriken, and (c) he'd be more likely to hit with Elan with those first two shuriken if he used Flurry of Blows. He might have a few levels of Assassin too. The dwarf could have a whole bunch of levels in Assassin.

Wrecan

2005-10-21, 05:35 PM

Roy must have a decent Charisma. He made an unskilled Disguise check using a mop head as a wig. Then he made an unskilled Bluff check to get past two assassins.

Devils_Advocate

2005-10-21, 09:33 PM

How do you know he doesn't have a rank or two in Disguise?

More random notes:

Roy does not wear heavy armor, or at least it's not heavy for the purpose of armor limitations. When the team runs away from something, Roy carries Durkon, which only make sense if he runs faster. Which means that he can be wearing medium armor at most. Also note that no mention has been made of his armor clanking like Durkon's. It could be a mithral version of a heavier armor, though. Even then, it's not full plate, which is sized specifically for the wearer, unless the Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity magically changes the wearer's armor (possible. Heck, now that I think about it, likely, since some morphs might result in the wearer becoming too large for his/her armor, and how would that work if it stayed the same? So never mind).

Also, Roy's Strength must be high enough to allow him to carry a dwarf in full plate with a sheild, plus his greatsword, plus his own armor, as a medium load. If he and Durkon each carry a bag of holding, that's at least another 30 lbs right there. That would normally mean a Str of at least 18, probably 19 or more, but Rich's dwarves look like they might be slightly smaller than standard. But that could just be the way they're drawn; I'm not sure. Maybe Roy has some sort of magical item that increases his strength. Speaking of which...

We only know Vaarsuvius's and Elan's base Int and Cha respectively; they came up in situations where bonuses to those stats weren't relevant (V's delicious brain, Elan's under-the-hood Charisma). So for all we know, they have a headband of intellect and a cloak of charisma. On the other hand, we've seen no evidence that they do, or that anyone in the party has an ability-raising item. Which is probably intentional.

Bil123

2005-10-24, 05:32 PM

I don't get how Roy cold have a higher intelligence than V and still get messed up here. http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=226

El Jaspero, the Pirate King

2005-10-24, 05:44 PM

I'd see the above quote as a more an example of low Wis than low Int, given that Wis governs perception, common sense and intutition.

BurntOfferings

2005-10-24, 09:29 PM

I don't get how Roy cold have a higher intelligence than V and still get messed up here. http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=226
It is doubtful that Roy has a higher Int than V. I assume that you're referring to the mindflayer incident? That only indicates that Roy had a better balance of mental stats (Int, Wis, Cha). I think that the Giant commented on this once.

V has a high Int, but his Cha is definitely low. His Wis is probably okay, but not particularly impressive. Roy probably has fair Int, Wis, and Cha, but none of them are near 18. Perhaps all about 14-15? That would be a pretty darn impressive character. He definitely rolled those stats instead of using a point-buying system. ;)

Kish

2005-10-24, 10:23 PM

It is doubtful that Roy has a higher Int than V. I assume that you're referring to the mindflayer incident? That only indicates that Roy had a better balance of mental stats (Int, Wis, Cha). I think that the Giant commented on this once.

Yes. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1105422121 ;start=200#200)

Lasombra

2005-10-25, 04:48 AM

that implies that roy is close to being V's equal. so possibly Int 16, Wis 16 and Charisma 14.

...

i'm not sure why anyone would want to become a fighter with those stats...

???

Korppis

2005-10-25, 06:32 AM

that implies that roy is close to being V's equal. so possibly Int 16, Wis 16 and Charisma 14.

...

i'm not sure why anyone would want to become a fighter with those stats...

???

Well, Roy's father wanted him to become Wizard...

I found it quite funnu that in Mind Flayer's eyes V was hamburger (lots on energy, but not very healthy) and Roy was broiler (or turkey) which is generally seen as more healthy choise ;D

Wrecan

2005-10-25, 08:49 AM

i'm not sure why anyone would want to become a fighter with those stats...

To piss off your father. That's apparently been a motivation for at least two of the OOTS members.

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=78

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=93

Kish

2005-10-25, 01:29 PM

Because the Greenhilt family has a rich heritage as warriors.

Nixie

2005-10-25, 03:26 PM

Yep. and the fact that he wanted to be a fighter, and is probably not regretting it either. <--- I guess he's still going through the teenage rebellion ... ;)

Bil123

2005-10-25, 04:25 PM

Shadowdancer Ninja Guy: Probably at least level 7 rouge and at least level 4 shadowdancer, possibly a level or two in assasin.

Kish

2005-10-26, 12:06 AM

Redcloak: He's not a charecter but he is a reacurring villan. he might have7 levels in magic because of his control undead spell and some levels in Cleric of the evil domain http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=95

...Erm?

Levels in magic? Levels in cleric of the evil domain?

Lasombra

2005-10-26, 05:43 AM

yep, there is actually an "Evil" Domain. havnt seen him cast control Undead even once however... i though we'd established he was a level 12 goblin Cleric?

Kish

2005-10-26, 12:13 PM

Yes, I know there's an Evil domain, but one doesn't take levels in cleric of a domain, and Redcloak appears to have all his levels in cleric. He doesn't have "some levels in cleric of the evil domain"--he's a cleric, who has two domains, one of which may or may not be Evil.

Bil123

2005-10-28, 05:59 PM

Ok I didn't see that sorry about that.

Tiran

2005-10-29, 09:07 PM

Elan has low Wis.

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=80

Probably Int and Wis are low, but thats definte proof he has low Wisdom.

Lasombra

2005-11-03, 05:39 AM

yep, hes probably got about 8 in each.

well, we can probably apply Improved Sunder to Roys feats seeing he latest strip.

Winged One

2005-11-03, 02:56 PM

I think that the shadowdancer is a monk. Hide, Move Silently, and Perform(dance) are all class skills for a monk, and Combat Reflexes is a possible bonus feat for them. And, of course, it explains the suriken proficiency.

EDIT: and, of course, I just realized that somebody beat me to it. Oh well.

Devils_Advocate

2005-11-04, 12:42 AM

In addition to Roy pointing out that Elan lacks the Wisdom to be cleric, Rich has mentioned him having an Intelligence penalty. (I don't want to bother looking for the thread, so just take my word on this one, OK?)

yep, hes probably got about 8 in each.
I concur. I think that his idiocy comes not from either score being terribly low, but from the combination of the two. Low Int and low Wis is a disastrous combination. Elan both comes up with horrible ideas (better hiding through nudity, taking a level in a class (cleric, and then wizard) that he can barely make use of due to his ability scores, going through all the trouble of creating his own deity instead of just sucking up to an existing one) and then refuses to listen when someone clearly smarter than him (Roy) explains the flaws in his plans.

And while low Int, low Wis is bad enough on its own, it can be even worse when combined with high Charisma! All things considered, it's fortunate that Elan decided to take up a life of adventuring and not, say, run for public office... :o

Lasombra

2005-11-04, 08:22 AM

i wonder if governor is a prestige class? ;D

BurntOfferings

2005-11-04, 12:05 PM

well, we can probably apply Improved Sunder to Roys feats seeing he latest strip.
It does fit with his known feat progression (Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave), but I'll reserve judgement until I see him sunder a melee weapon.

Wrecan

2005-11-04, 01:57 PM

i wonder if governor is a prestige class? ;D

Sort of.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/aristocrat.htm

Wrecan

2005-11-14, 01:26 PM

And now it is established that V has a Strength no greater than 9

Wrecan

2005-11-14, 01:45 PM

Lasombra hasn't updated this in a while, so I'll try. Apologies, Lasombra!

Roy Greenhilt
Lawful Good, Human Female Fighter >9
Attributes (27 pt buy min):
Str >13 (Power attack)
Dex ~10 (no evidence, probably his dump stat)
Con >14 ("I have a lot of hit points")
Int >14 ("very good" according to giant)
Wis >14 ("very good" according to giant)
Cha >12 ("decent" according to giant)
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword)...
Skills: No Ride or Bluff.
Items: Bag of Tricks, starmetal, cursed crown of Xykon, broken sword, Elan's cloak, greatclub, mop wig, rock, girdle of masculinity/femininity, Durkon's heirloom shield, Durkon's heirloom warhammer, heavy armor

Belkar Bitterleaf
Chaotic Evil, Halfling Male Ranger >11/ Barbarian 1
Attributes (18 pt buy min):
Str >14 (for his daggers to be effective, despite halfling)
Dex >16 (to boost light armor, halfling)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis 10 (min to use scrolls to save Elan, max before he can cast spells w/out aid)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats: Endurance, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting...
Skills: Jump... No Listen, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot or Survival.
Items: Ring of Jumping +20, lead sheet, riding dog, rock, 2 small daggers, cloak

Durkon Thundershield
Lawful Good, Dwarven Male Cleric >11
Attributes (24 pt buy min):
Str >12 ("would make a good warrior")
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con >16 (dwarf)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis >16 (to cast Heal)
Cha <8 (mentions having low Cha)
Feats: Extra Turning...
Skills: No Ride, little Knowledge (Religion) if any
Items: Amulet of Natural Armor, rock, full plate armor, holy symbol

Elan
Chaotic Good, Human Male Bard ~9
Attributes (26 pt buy min):
Str <8 (no evidence, but sprained shoulder lifting hoard)
Dex >14 (weapon finesse, tumble)
Con >14 (survives poisons and stabbings)
Int <8 (no evidence, but acts like an idiot)
Wis <8 (Roy says he has insufficient Wisdom to be priest, even to a puppet)
Cha >18 (confirmed by Haley, may have increased)
Feats: Weapon Finesse...
Skills: Perform (Lute) >6, Perform (Kazoo), Ride, Tumble...
Items: Boots of Elvenkind, magic rapier, rock, sash, lute, Banjo, chain shirt, coffee maker, kazoo
Spells: Animate Rope, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Summon Plot Exposition

Haley Starshine
Chaotic Good, Human Female Rogue >10
Attributes (24 pt buy min):
Str ~10 (no evidence, probably dump stat)
Dex >17 (Haley never seems to miss a Dex check)
Con >14 (survives max'd lightning bolt + 5 magic missiles)
Int >13+ (decent Search/Disable, smarter than Elan)
Wis <10 (prone to nervous breakdown)
Cha >13 (clearly attractive and persuasive, otherwise, no clue)
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot... Not Manyshot (according to Giant)
Skills: Disable Device, Hide, Knowledge (Arcane), Search, Sense Motive, Tumble, Use Rope >8... No Ride
Items: 8 Bags of Holding, 1 bag of dragon hoard, 2 round gems, shortbow, quivers of green fletched arrows (inc'g silver and cold iron), many carts

Vaarsuvius
Non-evil, Elven Ambiguously Gendered Wizard >12
Attributes (28 pt buy min):
Str <9 (mentions Str penalty)
Dex >12 (elf)
Con >14 (never short on hp, decent concentration mod)
Int >18 (admits to illithid, may have increased)
Wis >10 ("moderate wisdom" according to giant)
Cha <9 (has Cha penalties)
Feats: Scribe Scroll, Improved Counterspell (or makes heavy use of Dispells)... Not Silent Spell or Still Spell
Skills: Concentrate <14, Craft (Alchemy), Knowledge (Arcane), Spellcraft... No Ride or Search
Items: Ring of Wizardry (probably affects level 3 spells), raven familiar, golden circlet, robes, rock, lost claim ticket, spellbook, ink, paper, 27 Heroism potions, scrolls, two small gemstones
Spells: Bull's Strength, Chain Lightning, Cone of Cold, Crushing Despair, Disintegrate, Dispel Magic, Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, Expeditious Retreat, Explosive Runes, Feather Fall, Fireball, Haste, Hold Person, Hold Portal, Identify, Invisibility, discount Invisibility Sphere, Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile, Owl's Wisdom, Protection From Arrows, Scorching Ray, Sleep, Suggestion, Vampiric Touch

Zargon

2005-11-14, 02:16 PM

Look pretty good, but I have a few suugestions/comment (most already mentioned)

From the giant (the holder of the stats sheets):
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1105422121 ;start=200#200
"Correct. V has a higher Int, but has a moderate Wisdom and a poor Charisma (shouting about your arcane power all day is not the way to make friends). Roy has a very good Int, a very good Wis, and a decent Charisma. Thus, he's the most filling meal. "

For Roy, very good Int and very good Wis, does not sound like 14. It sounds like 16 (or maybe 15)
Decent charisma, sounds like 14.

For V, moderate wisdom sounds like 12 (or maybe 13).
And poor charisma sounds like 7 or 8.
His int was 18 (mind flayer). It might have been bumped up to 19 since then due to leveling up.

And unless V has changed alignment recently, he is still Good (barely) (as per Giant). Maybe NG as mentioned?

Renloth

2005-11-14, 03:16 PM

Vaarsuvius - Wizard 12 (Neutral Good? Lawful Neutral?)
Int >19 (has WISH in spellbook)

As has been posted before, as per comic 49 where this is mentioned, He has stopped looking at his spell book. This makes it likely that he does not have them, but was simply asking to acertain if Zz'dtri would acually be willing to trade for his Fly spell.
Just trying to point out that that is a poor basis for his Int stat.

Wrecan

2005-11-14, 03:52 PM

Good point. however, V has gone up in level since claiming an 18 intelligence ot the flayer. I'll adjust the chart based on both posts.

Wrecan

2005-11-14, 04:16 PM

So what I noticed is that, unless Roy has 10 in Strength and 8 in Dexterity, he is way overpowered compared to the rest of the party. Everyone else is about a 30 point buy for their attributes.

And here's how they rank in illithid-vision (In+Wi+Ch):
Roy: ~40 (even spread) (turkey with trimmings)
Varsuuvius: ~36 (50% Int) (cheeseburger)
Elan: ~36 (50% Cha) (diet coke)
Haley: ~34 (45% Cha, 35% Int, 20% Wis) (sundae)
Durkon: ~34 (50% Wis) (oatmeal)
Belkar: ~26 (evenly bad) (taco)

Exitor

2005-11-14, 04:22 PM

A few points:
Roy
STR: 13+ Must have 13 for power attack, Probably 17+ due to being poisoned 17 times.
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 13
14 is very good and 13 is decent at least IMHO

Belkar has an unknown amulet.

Elan
Int ~10 The Giant has mentioned that Elan was just commenting on the number of skill points bards get when he said 6 skill points, he wasn't necessarily saying how many skill points he got.

Wrecan

2005-11-14, 05:45 PM

I'll accept 12 as decent and 14 as very good

I don't see how being poisoned 17 times translates to 17 Strength points. Poison does more than 1 Attribute point damage. The poison was probably overkill, whatever Roy's Strength.

Good point on Elan's Int

Belkar does not have the amulet. He called "dibs" but it's clear that's not how treasure is divvied up. Chances are, that amulet became Durkon's amulet of natural armor.

Kish

2005-11-14, 10:56 PM

Good point on Elan's Int

Except that I'm pretty sure it's well below average.

Belkar does not have the amulet. He called "dibs" but it's clear that's not how treasure is divvied up. Chances are, that amulet became Durkon's amulet of natural armor.
That would mean it wasn't worn by anyone at all most of the way through the Dungeon of Dorukan, all the way from strip #11 to strip #130. That would be extremely stupid and wasteful.

thespyder

2005-11-14, 11:28 PM

Elan
Int ~10 The Giant has mentioned that Elan was just commenting on the number of skill points bards get when he said 6 skill points, he wasn't necessarily saying how many skill points he got.

when bards switch over to 3.5 they gained 2 more skill pts per lvl. this means that at the beginning of the comic they were 3rd lvl. in 3.0 bards got 4+int skill pts per lvl and in 3.5 they got 6+int per lvl.
unless rich is functioning with the belief that negative modifiers alter the number of hit points, skill points, and attack bonus you get then his INT could be significantly lower.
In the PHB it says that an ogre has an intelligence of 6-7, elan outsmarted an ogre. this would put his intelligence at around 8.

as for belkar I don't think he has a 10 wisdom, he could only use the scroll when he had owl's wisdom cast upon him which adds +4 to wisdom. i'd give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he has about 7-8 wisdom. no higher.
two issues with belkar are wild empathy and animal companion. he should have both. which means windstriker should have been much nicer to belkar and belkar should have an animal companion now. i'd say it's his riding dog but he bought that dog instead of befriending it.

Kish

2005-11-15, 12:53 AM

when bards switch over to 3.5 they gained 2 more skill pts per lvl. this means that at the beginning of the comic they were 3rd lvl.
Actually, the Giant said a while ago that this only means that--as we discover later when Elan thinks 6+6=10--Elan has no head for even the simplest of addition.

Wrecan

2005-11-15, 11:27 AM

That would mean it wasn't worn by anyone at all most of the way through the Dungeon of Dorukan, all the way from strip #11 to strip #130. That would be extremely stupid and wasteful.

Not necessarily. Belkar could have worn it until it was time to divvy up treasure. Then it goes back in the treasure pool and Durkon grabbed it up, leaving the Ring of Jumping for Belkar.

Saxov

2005-11-15, 11:52 AM

as for belkar I don't think he has a 10 wisdom, he could only use the scroll when he had owl's wisdom cast upon him which adds +4 to wisdom. i'd give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he has about 7-8 wisdom. no higher.
Perhaps it is my english skills, but are you not contradicting yourself here.. ?
we know for a fact that:

Belkar needs a wisdom 14 to use a scroll with a level 4 spell on it (See the DMG).
Owl's wisdom grants a flat +4 bonus
Belkar can normaly not cast spells, and a ranger requires a wisdom 11 to cast a spell.

So his wisdom must be below 11, yet when adding 4 to it, it has to be 14 or higher.

Douglas

2005-11-15, 12:44 PM

I'm pretty sure Belkar's wisdom only had to be high enough to cast the version of the spell that was on the scroll, not the version that is on his spell list. The scrolls were almost certainly scribed by a cleric, for which CSW is only level 3. So, Belkar's wisdom could be as low as 9 and still be enough to use that scroll with Owl's Wisdom.

Devils_Advocate

2005-11-15, 02:25 PM

Well, I haven't seen a ruling on this from any official source, but as far as I understand it, the only attributes of a given spell on a scroll are (a) which spell it is, (b) which type of magic it is (arcane or divine), and (c) the spell's caster level; i.e. it doesn't matter which class the creator was. Thus a sorceror using a scroll scribed by a wizard needs sufficient Charisma, not Intelligence, and a ranger using a scroll scribed by a cleric needs the same Wisdom score he would need to cast the spell himself, not just what the cleric would need to cast it. That's my interpetation, anyway.

unless rich is functioning with the belief that negative modifiers alter the number of hit points, skill points, and attack bonus you get
Um, they do. I'm almost 100% sure on that. In fact, I believe than the rules state that you get a minumum of 1 hit point and 1 skill point per level, something they wouldn't need to say if negative modifiers don't apply. Negative modifiers generally apply to pretty much everything that positive modifiers apply to. Otherwise there wouldn't be much of a difference between a 3 and a 10.

Elan
Int ~10 The Giant has mentioned that Elan was just commenting on the number of skill points bards get when he said 6 skill points, he wasn't necessarily saying how many skill points he got.
Yes, but the Giant also said "He isn't taking his Intelligence penatly into account because, as noted, he's bad at math", or something to that effect. So Elan's Int is no more than 9. (Why would you think it would be any higher?) Again, I think that his Int and Wis are both 8-9, and it's the combination of the two that makes him so foolish. They're probably not too much lower, since he can still speak properly and doesn't seem... well, doesn't seem terribly crazy... I think...

Douglas

2005-11-15, 03:06 PM

Um, they do. I'm almost 100% sure on that. In fact, I believe than the rules state that you get a minumum of 1 hit point and 1 skill point per level, something they wouldn't need to say if negative modifiers don't apply. Negative modifiers generally apply to pretty much everything that positive modifiers apply to. Otherwise there wouldn't be much of a difference between a 3 and a 10.
It all depends on whether the rule in question says "bonus", "penalty", or "modifier". For example, a flat-footed character loses his dexterity bonus to AC - this means that being flat-footed does not improve the AC of someone with a dex penalty. An armor check penalty can never become positive (even if a special material reduces it by more than the original value) because then it would be a bonus. All classes get some number plus intelligence modifier skill points per level, so both bonuses and penalties apply.

Wrecan

2005-11-15, 03:52 PM

Well, I haven't seen a ruling on this from any official source, but as far as I understand it, the only attributes of a given spell on a scroll are (a) which spell it is, (b) which type of magic it is (arcane or divine), and (c) the spell's caster level; i.e. it doesn't matter which class the creator was. Thus a sorceror using a scroll scribed by a wizard needs sufficient Charisma, not Intelligence, and a ranger using a scroll scribed by a cleric needs the same Wisdom score he would need to cast the spell himself, not just what the cleric would need to cast it. That's my interpetation, anyway.

It is also Skip William's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041116a) opinion, and he's the resident rules guru over at Wizards. In the article to which I link, he makes it clear that in order to read a scroll, the spell must beon the reader's spell list, and the reader must have sufficient attirbutes to be able to cast the spell from the reader's own spell list. The level of the reader is only important to determine whether the reader can cast it automatically, or needs a Wisdom check.

Here's the relevant passage, particularly the last sentence:

You can't activate a spell completion item if the spell stored in the item isn't on your class spell list or if your ability scores would not allow you to cast the stored spell. For example, a single-classed bard cannot cast a fireball spell from a scroll, because fireball isnt on the bard spell list (see the entry on spell trigger items for a discussion of class spell lists). Likewise, a wizard with an Intelligence score of 12 could not cast a fireball spell from a scroll because a wizard needs an Intelligence score of at least 13 to cast a 3rd-level spell.

Belkar casts Cure Serious Wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureSeriousWounds.htm) with a scroll. That is a 4th level divine spell for a ranger and thus requires a 14 Wisdom. Owl's Wisdom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/owlsWisdom.htm) adds +4 to a Wisdom score. Thus, for Owl's Wisdom to allow Belkar to cast Cure Serious Wounds, he could not have had less than 10 Wisdom. Since we also know Belkar cannot cast any spells without a magical Wisdom boost, and rangers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm#tableTheRanger) don't get zero-level spells, he cannot have higher than a 10 Wisdom. Belkar therefore has a 10 Wisdom.

Old_el_Paso

2005-11-15, 08:59 PM

Vaarsuvius - Wizard Level 11?

Feats:
Nothing which has jumped out at me yet

Skills:
Knowledge (Arcane)
Spellcraft

Ability scores:
Str - 10 Nothing to show he is particularly strong
Dex - 13 A guess, based on the fact that he is an elf
Con - 11 A guess
Int - 18 Admitted
Wis - 13 A guess, based on things he has said
Cha - 13 A guess, he's a bit aloof and doesn't play well with others but still an elf

V's Strength is 9 or lower he/she has a strength penalty.

Kish

2005-11-15, 09:10 PM

And, "still an elf"? Elves don't have a Charisma bonus.

(Still mystified by the idea that Belkar's Wisdom is anywhere near average, btw.)

Wrecan
Belkar
Con >14 (mentions he has quite a few hp when party loses durkon)

No, he doesn't. The phrase you're probably thinking of is, "Those few hit points from resting are not gonna cut it."

Durkon
Cha <8 (mentions having low Cha)

He can turn undead. If you're going to list Belkar's Wisdom as 10 based on rules the Giant has explictly said he doesn't much care about and despite Vaarsuvius using the phrase "normally reserved for lemmings" to describe Belkar's Wisdom, you have to give Durkon at least 12 here.

Patashu

2005-11-16, 12:09 AM

From what I can tell, Belkar's wisdom is almost certainly below 10 and the comic bent the rules by allowing him to cast the scroll's spell after only Owl's Wisdom. It seems more plausable then the alternative.

Devils_Advocate

2005-11-16, 01:08 AM

He can turn undead. If you're going to list Belkar's Wisdom as 10 based on rules the Giant has explictly said he doesn't much care about and despite Vaarsuvius using the phrase "normally reserved for lemmings" to describe Belkar's Wisdom, you have to give Durkon at least 12 here.
There's no minimum Cha score needed to turn undead, so far as I know. That we see Durkon attempt to turn undead three times in comic #16 suggests that it's at least 10, but he could have the Extra Turning feat. On the other hand, a "low Charisma modifier" could still be positive; the phrase is pretty vague.

Durkon doesn't strike me as being especially charasmatic, though. More than anyone else on the team, he doesn't really seem to talk much and kind of blends into the background. It's not surprising that the others would be inclined to view him primarily as a walking medicine chest.

thespyder

2005-11-17, 06:10 AM

copied over from another thread since it belongs here.
the discussion was about belkar's intelligence and intimidate ability.
intimidate is not a cross-class skill for belkar, he has one lvl in barbarian. and he probably threw every single point he had into it.
secondly, i don't think belkar has an intelligence of 8. he's got to be atleast 10, i'd say more likely 12 since he seems to not be completely retarded. he probably has 103 skill points and his skill selections would probably be climb, jump, hide, knowledge dungeoneering, move silently, survival, intimidate. those would be at one point below max and he'd probably have a few points in spot, listen, search, & ride.
so 14 ranks in survival, wisdom modifier -2, and +3 favored enemy modifier for tracking (probably humans, followed most likely by goblinoids.) giving him a total of +15 to track as opposed to miko's +1 to track (how the heck did she manage to track down the oots with only a +1 to her tracking check? especially considering that the DC was atleast 23 for the mountain. plus it would have been almost impossible to track them at the mountain since they entered and exited at diffrent locations)

Kish

2005-11-17, 06:36 AM

Wrecan

2005-11-17, 10:05 AM

The phrase you're probably thinking of is, "Those few hit points from resting are not gonna cut it."

Possibly. I suppose we have little info on the subject of Belkar's Con

He can turn undead. If you're going to list Belkar's Wisdom as 10 based on rules the Giant has explictly said he doesn't much care about and despite Vaarsuvius using the phrase "normally reserved for lemmings" to describe Belkar's Wisdom, you have to give Durkon at least 12 here.

Why? All we know is he can turn undead at least three times a day, which means he either has Charisma 10+ or he has less than a Charisma 9- and the Extra Turning feat.

He tells Elan his Charisma is not very high. It seems to me that he has a below average Charisma, although I could be wrong.

And we never actually see Durkon successfully turn undead; only try. He might actually be suffering some Cha penalties to his turn rolls.

Wrecan

2005-11-17, 10:06 AM

I'm starting a new thread with my compiled stats in the first post. That will make it easier for me to make adjustments and allow people to quickly refer to them.

Wrecan

2005-11-17, 04:12 PM

okay. Scratch that. The second thread's been closed. I'll continue to update my last consolidated post on the issue, which is located on page 11.

Spus_Widgetwatcher

2005-11-17, 07:00 PM

Origins of PC Spoiler:

Haley mentions having the lock pick skill.

Although it's speculation, it's very possible Roy has some ranks in Diplomacy, albeit cross-class.

Wrecan

2005-11-18, 06:34 PM

Well we now know that Haley has a higher Intelligence than Elan (as if that wasn't obvious) because she gets more Bonus Languages than he.

Ladoran

2005-11-23, 08:47 AM

Belkar must be just above 9 or just above 12 since he got a feat last level, #249: "I took Craft Disturbing Mental Image as my feat last level". At the moment my english skills have gone somewhere to hide so I can't figure out if this means he IS 9 or 12 or if he is 10 or 13.

Oh and i haven't read the all the posts here, so I don't know what the current ideas of his level is.

Wrecan

2005-11-23, 09:42 AM

Wasn't his last level his first level of barbarian? Barbarians don't get bonus feats, so he must be referring to his last level of ranger. That means he's a 12th level ranger.

Assuming, of course, that he's not lying for purposes of a punch line.

I also note that Durkon now has the Girdle (as well as his heirlooms). Roy has discarded the mop wig and is likely returning Elan his cloak.

The current tally follows:

Roy Greenhilt
Lawful Good, Human Male Fighter >9
Attributes (27 pt buy min):
Str >13 (Power attack)
Dex ~10 (no evidence, probably his dump stat)
Con >14 ("I have a lot of hit points")
Int >14 ("very good" according to giant)
Wis >14 ("very good" according to giant)
Cha >12 ("decent" according to giant)
Feats: Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword)...
Skills: Ride 1... No Bluff.
Items: Bag of Tricks, starmetal, cursed crown of Xykon, broken sword, greatclub, rock, boots, heavy armor

Belkar Bitterleaf
Chaotic Evil, Halfling Male Ranger 11/ Barbarian 1
Attributes (18 pt buy min):
Str >14 (for his daggers to be effective, despite halfling)
Dex >16 (to boost light armor, halfling)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis 10 (min to use scrolls to save Elan, max before he can cast spells w/out aid)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats: Craft Disturbing Mental Image, Endurance, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting...
Skills: Jump... No Listen, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot or Survival.
Items: Ring of Jumping +20, lead sheet, riding dog, rock, 2 small daggers, cloak...

Durkon Thundershield
Lawful Good, Dwarven Male Cleric >11
Attributes (24 pt buy min):
Str >12 ("would make a good warrior")
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con >16 (dwarf)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis >16 (to cast Heal)
Cha <8 (mentions having low Cha)
Feats: Extra Turning...
Skills: Knowledge (Religion) >1 (but not much greater)... No Ride
Items: Amulet of Natural Armor, rock, full plate armor, holy symbol, girdle of masculinity/femininity, heirloom shield, heirloom warhammer...

Elan
Chaotic Good, Human Male Bard ~9
Attributes (26 pt buy min):
Str <8 (no evidence, but sprained shoulder lifting hoard)
Dex >14 (weapon finesse, tumble)
Con >14 (survives poisons and stabbings)
Int <8 (no evidence, but acts like an idiot)
Wis <8 (Roy says he has insufficient Wisdom to be priest, even to a puppet)
Cha >18 (confirmed by Haley, may have increased)
Feats: Weapon Finesse...
Skills: Perform (Lute) >6, Perform (Kazoo), Ride >2, Tumble...
Items: Boots of Elvenkind, cloak, magic rapier, rock, sash, lute, Banjo, chain shirt, coffee maker, kazoo
Spells: Animate Rope, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Summon Plot Exposition

Haley Starshine
Chaotic Good, Human Female Rogue >10
Attributes (24 pt buy min):
Str ~10 (no evidence, probably dump stat)
Dex >17 (Haley never seems to miss a Dex check)
Con >14 (survives max'd lightning bolt + 5 magic missiles)
Int >13+ (decent Search/Disable, smarter than Elan)
Wis <10 (prone to nervous breakdown)
Cha >13 (clearly attractive and persuasive, otherwise, no clue)
Feats: Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot...
Skills: Disable Device, Hide, Knowledge (Arcane), Search, Sense Motive, Tumble, Use Rope >8... No Ride
Items: 8 Bags of Holding, 1 bag of dragon hoard, 2 round gems, shortbow, quivers of green fletched arrows (inc'g silver and cold iron)...

Miko Miyazaki
Lawful good, Human Female Monk >2/Paladin >11
Attributes (20 pt buy min)
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex >17 (Improved Two Weapon Fighting)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis >12 (has a Wisdom modifier)
Cha >12 (Roy thinks she's "hot")
Feats: Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Stunning Fist, Quick Draw, Track, Two Weapon Fighting...
Skills: Ride, Sense Motive, Survival 1...
Items: Longsword, swortsword, light armor, blue cape, Windstrider...

Vaarsuvius
Non-evil, Elven Ambiguously Gendered Wizard 12
Attributes (28 pt buy min):
Str <9 (mentions Str penalty)
Dex >12 (elf)
Con >14 (never short on hp, decent concentration mod)
Int >18 (admits to illithid, may have increased)
Wis >10 ("moderate wisdom" according to giant)
Cha <9 (has Cha penalties)
Feats: Improved Counterspell (or makes heavy use of Dispells), Scribe Scroll... Not Silent Spell or Still Spell
Skills: Concentrate <14, Craft (Alchemy), Knowledge (Arcane), Spellcraft... No Ride or Search
Items: Ring of Wizardry (probably affects level 3 spells), raven familiar, golden circlet, robes, rock, lost claim ticket, spellbook, ink, paper, 27 Heroism potions, scrolls, two small gemstones...
Spells: Bull's Strength, Chain Lightning, Cone of Cold, Crushing Despair, Disintegrate, Dispel Magic, Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, Expeditious Retreat, Explosive Runes, Feather Fall, Fireball, Haste, Hold Person, Hold Portal, Identify, Invisibility, discount Invisibility Sphere, Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile, Owl's Wisdom, Protection From Arrows, Scorching Ray, Sleep, Suggestion, Vampiric Touch...

Runolfr

2005-11-23, 10:59 AM

Wasn't his last level his first level of barbarian? Barbarians don't get bonus feats, so he must be referring to his last level of ranger. That means he's a 12th level ranger.

No, he would get a feat upon reaching character level 12, so he could easily be a L11 Ranger / L1 Barbarian and still have gained a feat last level.

Runolfr

2005-11-23, 11:54 AM

Roy Greenhilt
Lawful Good, Human Male Fighter >9
Attributes (27 pt buy min):
Str >13 (Power attack)
Dex ~10 (no evidence, probably his dump stat)
Con >14 ("I have a lot of hit points")
Int >14 ("very good" according to giant)
Wis >14 ("very good" according to giant)
Cha >12 ("decent" according to giant)
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword)...
Skills: No Ride or Bluff.
Items: Bag of Tricks, starmetal, cursed crown of Xykon, broken sword, greatclub, rock, boots, heavy armor

I believe Roy said he actually has one rank of Ride.

Wrecan

2005-11-23, 11:58 AM

Right on both counts!

thespyder

2005-11-23, 04:39 PM

Ilanin

2005-11-23, 05:02 PM

When Durkon reveals to us his ignorance of who Loki is, he said "if I had a few more ranks in Knowledge: Religion", implying he has at least one.

Wrecan

2005-11-23, 05:52 PM

haley must have many shot because when she went through the succubus dilemna she shot both arrows at once.

and for belkar, he wouldn't neccessarily have needed to take his last lvl in ranger, he could just be 12th lvl (bonus feats at 1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th,etc)

1) Giant has said in another thread that Haley does not have Manyshot and was using Rapid Shot.

2) Belkar has at least 1 level in Barbarian and at least 11 levels in ranger. This makes him 12, 15, 18+ levels total. SInce everyone else is about level 12, I doubt Belkar is that far past them

Spus_Widgetwatcher

2005-11-23, 07:07 PM

Think Elan has better strength than V- he sprained his wrist because V dropped it, not him.

thespyder

2005-11-23, 07:39 PM

ok, that may be so, but if you look here http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=62
you'll see that haley fired two arrows at the exact same time, which is manyshot, not rapid fire. heck, she even says "I'm so glad i took manyshot."

Kish

2005-11-23, 07:53 PM

Yes. What the Giant said (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1105422121 ;start=200#200) was that she wasn't using Manyshot in strip #168, not that she doesn't have the feat.

thespyder

2005-11-23, 08:58 PM

i'd like to note that in that posting from the giant, he refer's to V exclusively as "he". think he might be giving away the answer to the eternal question there?

Kish

2005-11-23, 09:51 PM

No, he's always done that, and has responded to questioning about it by saying that English uses "he" to indicate "gender unknown" as well as male.

Wrecan

2005-11-23, 10:04 PM

You're right. I misread the Giant. Manyshot is going back on her Feat list.

Wrecan

2005-11-28, 09:52 AM

Elan now clearly has his cape back and I realized that Miko has the Track Feat

Slibs

2005-11-28, 01:47 PM

Has anyone ever worked up Xykon? I figure he must have a couple levels of Bard, given his sense of the Dramatic in keeping the Shadow Lackey hidden "I know the score, they could do a cut-away to us at any moment" and the practicing of victory speeches before the Order arrives.

Dark_Stalion

2005-11-28, 02:22 PM

Belkar couldn't read the scrolls. V had to cast Owls wisdom for him to do it. (I also remember he stopped being syco when V cast the spell).

Wrecan

2005-11-28, 02:54 PM

Yes, that's why his Wis is 10. A Ranger with a Wisdom of 10 or less cannot use scrolls. With Owl's Wisdom, his Wis is 14, which is the minimum needed to cast a Cure Serious Wounds scroll.

If Belkar's Wisdom was 9 or less, Owl's Wisdom would be insufficient to let him cast the scroll. If Belkar's Wisdom was 11 or more, Owl's Wisdom was unnecesssary to let him read the scroll. Thus, Belkar's Wisdom is exactly 10.

And since we're on a new page, here's the updated stat list:

Roy Greenhilt
Lawful Good, Human Male Fighter >9
Attributes (27 pt buy min):
Str >13 (Power attack)
Dex ~10 (no evidence, probably his dump stat)
Con >14 ("I have a lot of hit points")
Int >14 ("very good" according to giant)
Wis >14 ("very good" according to giant)
Cha >12 ("decent" according to giant)
Feats: Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword)...
Skills: Ride 1... No Bluff.
Items: Bag of Tricks, starmetal, cursed crown of Xykon, broken sword, greatclub, rock, boots, heavy armor

Belkar Bitterleaf
Chaotic Evil, Halfling Male Ranger 11/ Barbarian 1
Attributes (18 pt buy min):
Str >14 (for his daggers to be effective, despite halfling)
Dex >16 (to boost light armor, halfling)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis 10 (min to use scrolls to save Elan, max before he can cast spells w/out aid)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats: Craft Disturbing Mental Image, Endurance, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting...
Skills: Climb, Hide, Jump, Move Silently... No Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot or Survival.
Items: Ring of Jumping +20, lead sheet, riding dog, rock, 2 small daggers, cloak...

Durkon Thundershield
Lawful Good, Dwarven Male Cleric >11
Attributes (24 pt buy min):
Str >12 ("would make a good warrior")
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con >16 (dwarf)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis >16 (to cast Heal)
Cha <8 (mentions having low Cha)
Feats: Extra Turning...
Skills: Knowledge (Religion) >1 (but not much greater)... No Ride
Items: Amulet of Natural Armor, rock, full plate armor, holy symbol, girdle of masculinity/femininity, heirloom shield, heirloom warhammer...

Elan
Chaotic Good, Human Male Bard ~9
Attributes (26 pt buy min):
Str <8 (no evidence, but sprained shoulder lifting hoard)
Dex >14 (weapon finesse, tumble)
Con >14 (survives poisons and stabbings)
Int <8 (no evidence, but acts like an idiot)
Wis <8 (Roy says he has insufficient Wisdom to be priest, even to a puppet)
Cha >18 (confirmed by Haley, may have increased)
Feats: Weapon Finesse...
Skills: Perform (Lute) >6, Perform (Kazoo), Ride >2, Tumble...
Items: Boots of Elvenkind, cloak, magic rapier, rock, sash, lute, Banjo, chain shirt, coffee maker, kazoo
Spells: Animate Rope, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Summon Plot Exposition

Haley Starshine
Chaotic Good, Human Female Rogue >10
Attributes (24 pt buy min):
Str ~10 (no evidence, probably dump stat)
Dex >17 (Haley never seems to miss a Dex check)
Con >14 (survives max'd lightning bolt + 5 magic missiles)
Int >13+ (decent Search/Disable, smarter than Elan)
Wis <10 (prone to nervous breakdown)
Cha >13 (clearly attractive and persuasive, otherwise, no clue)
Feats: Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot...
Skills: Disable Device, Hide, Knowledge (Arcane), Search, Sense Motive, Tumble, Use Rope >8... No Ride
Items: 8 Bags of Holding, 1 bag of dragon hoard, 2 round gems, shortbow, quivers of green fletched arrows (inc'g silver and cold iron)...

Miko Miyazaki
Lawful good, Human Female Monk >2/Paladin >11
Attributes (20 pt buy min)
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex >17 (Improved Two Weapon Fighting)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis >12 (has a Wisdom modifier)
Cha >12 (Roy thinks she's "hot")
Feats: Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Stunning Fist, Quick Draw, Track, Two Weapon Fighting...
Skills: Ride, Sense Motive, Survival 1...
Items: Longsword, swortsword, light armor, blue cape, Windstrider...

Vaarsuvius
Non-evil, Elven Ambiguously Gendered Wizard 12
Attributes (28 pt buy min):
Str <9 (mentions Str penalty)
Dex >12 (elf)
Con >14 (never short on hp, decent concentration mod)
Int >18 (admits to illithid, may have increased)
Wis >10 ("moderate wisdom" according to giant)
Cha <9 (has Cha penalties)
Feats: Improved Counterspell (or makes heavy use of Dispells), Scribe Scroll... Not Silent Spell or Still Spell
Skills: Concentrate <14, Craft (Alchemy), Knowledge (Arcane), Spellcraft... No Ride or Search
Items: Ring of Wizardry (probably affects level 3 spells), raven familiar, golden circlet, robes, rock, lost claim ticket, spellbook, ink, paper, 27 Heroism potions, scrolls, two small gemstones...
Spells: Bull's Strength, Chain Lightning, Cone of Cold, Crushing Despair, Disintegrate, Dispel Magic, Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, Expeditious Retreat, Explosive Runes, Feather Fall, Fireball, Haste, Hold Person, Hold Portal, Identify, Invisibility, discount Invisibility Sphere, Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile, Owl's Wisdom, Protection From Arrows, Scorching Ray, Sleep, Suggestion, Vampiric Touch...

BurntOfferings

2005-11-28, 04:17 PM

Belkar Bitterleaf
Skills: Jump... No Listen, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot or Survival.
Why do you assume that Belkar has no ranks in Ride? He rides a wiener dog (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=140), and never complained about not knowing how (unlike Haley and V (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=141)). He even rode it into battle (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=144)! While we have no incontrovertible proof that he has ranks in Ride, I see nothing to suggest that he doesn't have them.

I'd also say that he definitely has ranks in Climb, Hide, and Move Silently. He climbed down the side of the hotel (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=230), Roy considers him to be one of the "sneaky people," (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=17) and snuck past the goblin guards (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=107) to stab the spellcaster. I don't think that his racial and size bonuses alone are enough to account for these displays.

Wrecan

2005-11-28, 07:03 PM

Right you are on Belkar's Ride. No evidence either way. (And he didn't ride his dog into battle as much as a battle happened while he was riding. They were surprised, after all.)

I'll grant you Climb. Given that Belkar puts his cloak up when sneaking up on the spellcaster, he was definitely trying to Hide and Move Silently. Conside the list updated!

BurntOfferings

2005-11-28, 08:55 PM

Right you are on Belkar's Ride. No evidence either way. (And he didn't ride his dog into battle as much as a battle happened while he was riding. They were surprised, after all.)
Please note that on the right side of panel 1 in comic #144, Belkar's dog is actually hanging from the arm of one of the ogres. If that's not riding into battle (or at least being carried unwillingly into battle) then I don't know what is. :D

I'll grant you Climb. Given that Belkar puts his cloak up when sneaking up on the spellcaster, he was definitely trying to Hide and Move Silently. Conside the list updated!
But there's still no Climb! ;-)

Wrecan

2005-11-29, 09:41 AM

But there's still no Climb! ;-)

Doh!! :-[ Fixed. :)

Dragonmuncher

2005-11-29, 02:32 PM

Belkar has an amulet, back in number 11

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=11

Of course, I'm pretty sure it's never mentioned again... but there you have it.

Wrecan

2005-11-29, 04:59 PM

He had "dibs" on the amulet, but it doesn't appear that OOTS divvies treasure up on a dibs basis, otherwise, Haley wouldn't have had to deceive Roy into thinking that her sacks of gold were "feminine products".

Chances are, the amulet was the amulet of natural armor that Durkon took when it was time to split treasure. Belkar chose instead to take the ring of jumping +20.

Erathia

2005-11-29, 06:48 PM

Elan has to have points in Diplomacy. In Dungeon Crawling Fools he uses it to interrogate Xykon's goblins and warps their personality to middle-management subserviance, so he's probably got as many points in that as he does Perform

Wrecan

2005-11-29, 06:54 PM

Devils_Advocate

2005-11-29, 09:20 PM

But wouldn't being very diplomatic be bad roleplaying for a character with a low Diplopacy modifier? Doesn't "good roleplaying" include accurately portraying what's on your character sheet?

Of course, we know that his Dip mod is at least +4 anyway, just due to his high Charisma.

Slibs

2005-11-29, 09:21 PM

Elan goes out of his way not to roleplay the Diplomacy, even saying that sounds like a lot of work when the goblins tell him he has to roleplay it.

"I'm making a Diplomacy check right....now!"
"Arrgh!" "Opinions....inexplicably changing!"

Kish

2005-11-29, 11:02 PM

He said he had a ton of points in Charisma-based skills. That sounds like maxed Diplomacy to me.

evileeyore

2005-11-30, 12:17 AM

Or he's a good roleplayer. He also convinces a goblin to reveal where Haley was taken by manipulating him through crying. That could be Diplomacy or good role-playing. Unless Elan actually mentions having ranks in Diplomacy, I'm hesitant to put it on the sheet.
That was actually Intimidate. He scaried the gobluin teen in ways only a teen could be frighten. He threatened to he'd embarass him, not very Diplomatic there at all, but very Intimidating.

Runolfr

2005-11-30, 09:39 AM

He said he had a ton of points in Charisma-based skills. That sounds like maxed Diplomacy to me.

While I expect that Elan has points in Diplomacy, I doubt if he has "a ton" of points in anything, given his low Intelligence score.

Wrecan

2005-11-30, 09:50 AM

All right. You convinced me. Diplomacy goes on his skill set. I also now note that Miko has chains in her possession, though I'm beginning to think making her a regular part of the OOTS roster was a mistake.

Roy Greenhilt
Lawful Good, Human Male Fighter >9
Attributes (27 pt buy min):
Str >13 (Power attack)
Dex ~10 (no evidence, probably his dump stat)
Con >14 ("I have a lot of hit points")
Int >14 ("very good" according to giant)
Wis >14 ("very good" according to giant)
Cha >12 ("decent" according to giant)
Feats: Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword)...
Skills: Ride 1... No Bluff.
Items: cursed crown of Xykon, boots, heavy armor and in Miko's possession -- Bag of Tricks, starmetal, broken sword, greatclub, rock

Belkar Bitterleaf
Chaotic Evil, Halfling Male Ranger 11/ Barbarian 1
Attributes (18 pt buy min):
Str >14 (for his daggers to be effective, despite halfling)
Dex >16 (to boost light armor, halfling)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis 10 (min to use scrolls to save Elan, max before he can cast spells w/out aid)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats: Craft Disturbing Mental Image, Endurance, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting...
Skills: Climb, Hide, Jump, Move Silently... No Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot or Survival.
Items: Ring of Jumping +20, riding dog, cloak, and in Miko's possession -- rock, lead sheet, 2 small daggers...

Durkon Thundershield
Lawful Good, Dwarven Male Cleric >11
Attributes (24 pt buy min):
Str >12 ("would make a good warrior")
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con >16 (dwarf)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis >16 (to cast Heal)
Cha <8 (mentions having low Cha)
Feats: Extra Turning...
Skills: Knowledge (Religion) >1 (but not much greater)... No Ride
Items: Amulet of Natural Armor, rock, full plate armor, holy symbol, girdle of masculinity/femininity, heirloom shield, heirloom warhammer...

Elan
Chaotic Good, Human Male Bard ~9
Attributes (26 pt buy min):
Str <8 (no evidence, but sprained shoulder lifting hoard)
Dex >14 (weapon finesse, tumble)
Con >14 (survives poisons and stabbings)
Int <8 (no evidence, but acts like an idiot)
Wis <8 (Roy says he has insufficient Wisdom to be priest, even to a puppet)
Cha >18 (confirmed by Haley, may have increased)
Feats: Weapon Finesse...
Skills: Diplomacy, Perform (Lute) >6, Perform (Kazoo), Ride >2, Tumble...
Items: Boots of Elvenkind, cloak, sash, chain shirt, and in Miko's possession -- magic rapier, rock, lute, Banjo, coffee maker, kazoo, lantern, squirrel, horse, paddleball, jam, rollerskate
Spells: Animate Rope, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Summon Plot Exposition

Haley Starshine
Chaotic Good, Human Female Rogue >10
Attributes (24 pt buy min):
Str ~10 (no evidence, probably dump stat)
Dex >17 (Haley never seems to miss a Dex check)
Con >14 (survives max'd lightning bolt + 5 magic missiles)
Int >13+ (decent Search/Disable, smarter than Elan)
Wis <10 (prone to nervous breakdown)
Cha >13 (clearly attractive and persuasive, otherwise, no clue)
Feats: Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot...
Skills: Disable Device, Hide, Knowledge (Arcane), Search, Sense Motive, Tumble, Use Rope >8... No Ride
Items: blindfold, and in Miko's possession -- 8 Bags of Holding, 1 bag of dragon hoard, 2 round gems, shortbow w/broken bowstring, quivers of green fletched arrows (inc'g silver and cold iron)...

Miko Miyazaki
Lawful good, Human Female Monk >2/Paladin >11
Attributes (20 pt buy min)
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex >17 (Improved Two Weapon Fighting)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis >12 (has a Wisdom modifier)
Cha >12 (she can lay on hands)
Feats: Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Stunning Fist, Quick Draw, Track, Two Weapon Fighting...
Skills: Ride, Sense Motive, Survival 1...
Items: Longsword, swortsword, light armor, blue cape, Windstrider, chains and manacles...

Vaarsuvius
Non-evil, Elven Ambiguously Gendered Wizard 12
Attributes (18 pt buy min):
Str <9 (mentions Str penalty)
Dex ~10 ("no real attack bonus" on rays, according to Giant)
Con <11 ("doesn't have a decent Con" according to Giant)
Int >18 (admits to illithid, may have increased)
Wis >10 ("moderate wisdom" according to giant)
Cha <9 (has Cha penalties)
Feats: Improved Counterspell (or makes heavy use of Dispells), Scribe Scroll... Not Silent Spell or Still Spell
Skills: Concentrate <14, Craft (Alchemy), Knowledge (Arcane), Spellcraft... No Ride or Search
Items: Ring of Wizardry (probably affects level 3 spells), raven familiar, golden circlet, robes, and in Miko's possession -- rock, lost claim ticket, spellbook, ink, paper, 27 Heroism potions, scrolls, two small gemstones...
Spells: Bull's Strength, Chain Lightning, Cone of Cold, Crushing Despair, Disintegrate, Dispel Magic, Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, Expeditious Retreat, Explosive Runes, Feather Fall, Fireball, Haste, Hold Person, Hold Portal, Identify, Invisibility, discount Invisibility Sphere, Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile, Owl's Wisdom, Protection From Arrows, Scorching Ray, Sleep, Suggestion, Vampiric Touch...

Lasombra

2005-11-30, 10:06 AM

miko isnt using a longsword / shortsword. The weapons she is using are curved, i get the feelingt he combo is Scimitar/Small Scimitar given theres nothing in the rules to stop her.

Edit: Point buys might be a little off - they have additional atribute points from their level (at least 2, probably three.)

and the origional OOTS members are all the same level, given they go up levels all at the same time. - so if belkar is level 12 (as we know he is) then the others must also be.

exception is miko. we dont know to much about her, other than she is a monk/paladin and has at least two levels in monk, and five in paladin. and other random little bits.

Wrecan

2005-11-30, 10:09 AM

I'm pretty sure the Giant described her weapons once as longsword and shortsword. Otherwise, I'd agree with you.

Lasombra

2005-11-30, 10:13 AM

well, they could be i guess... they are long, and deal slashing damage...

hand on, arnt there certain monk weapons that look similar?

Leveller

2005-11-30, 10:55 AM

Im pretty sure he said BASTARD sword and short sword

Suldarr

2005-11-30, 11:04 AM

miko isnt using a longsword / shortsword. The weapons she is using are curved, i get the feelingt he combo is Scimitar/Small Scimitar given theres nothing in the rules to stop her.

exception is miko. we dont know to much about her, other than she is a monk/paladin and has at least two levels in monk, and five in paladin. and other random little bits.
Katana - masterwork Bastard swords, Wakizashi - masterwork short sword.
I think she can have some levels in samurai (from Complete Warrior) as well.

Flak_Razorwill

2005-11-30, 11:06 AM

I'm pretty sure the Giant described her weapons once as longsword and shortsword. Otherwise, I'd agree with you.

So katanas are treated exactly like longswords? Ok.

Didn't Elan also have a jar of jam and a rollerskate? Or did he chuck that after his "adventure?"

Wrecan

2005-11-30, 12:55 PM

jam, rollerskate, paddleball and a squirrel

Flak_Razorwill

2005-11-30, 02:00 PM

There we go. But I have a theory on that squirrel: maybe it was from Roy's bag's magical animals. We haven't seen it for a while, so it could be back in the bag.

evileeyore

2005-11-30, 02:02 PM

Hey Wrecan, please go back and reread the scene where Elan 'convinces' the Goblin to give up Haley's whereabouts.

I'm sure you'll agree that was Intimidate as Diplomacy is not a good choice for scaring someone.

Wrecan

2005-11-30, 03:07 PM

The Diplomacy comes from the arguments arising out of the Origin of the PCs strips, not the crying, which could easily have been an untrained Intimidate roll. Elan doesn't seem like the type to want to intimidate people.

Elan has a +4 bonus solely from his Charisma (and may also get synergy bonuses for the Persuasive Feat and/or Bluff 5+). The goblin was likely 1st Hit Dice (he's just a teen-aged goblin) with standard goblin Wisdom (-1) (if that -- he changes alignment fairly easily, implying little to no willpower), meaning he would succeed simply by rolling three less than his opponent rolls on a d20.

So I'll need more evidence before thinking Elan bothered ot place any of his precious skill points in Intimidate.

evileeyore

2005-11-30, 03:25 PM

I suppose I can see the merits of your arguement. But I'm keeoing my eye on you. :P

Kish

2005-11-30, 08:14 PM

So I'll need more evidence before thinking Elan bothered ot place any of his precious skill points in Intimidate.
"A ton of skill points in Charisma-based skills" sounds likely to include Intimidate, too.

Wrecan

2005-12-01, 10:11 AM

Intimidate doesn't seem like Elan's style. I imagine he put a lot of points in Bluff, Disguise, Diplomacy and Perform. Between that and his penchant for taking cross-class skills, and kazoo lessons, I don't know he'd put some points in Intimidate. He'd be more likely to stock up on Use Magic Item.

Runolfr

2005-12-01, 02:28 PM

Katana - masterwork Bastard swords, Wakizashi - masterwork short sword.
I think she can have some levels in samurai (from Complete Warrior) as well.

Miko has quite specifically denied having any levels in any "Samurai" class or prestige class. She's a monk/paladin.

LE4dGOLEM

2005-12-01, 04:29 PM

However, Miko's trustworthiness (Especially to (supposed) criminals (for her poi t of view)) is questionable, no?

Wrecan

2005-12-01, 05:28 PM

And how does that bear on her stats? (to keep the thread on topic)

Roy Greenhilt
Lawful Good, Human Male Fighter >9
Attributes (27 pt buy min):
Str >13 (Power attack)
Dex ~10 (no evidence, probably his dump stat)
Con >14 ("I have a lot of hit points")
Int >14 ("very good" according to giant)
Wis >14 ("very good" according to giant)
Cha >12 ("decent" according to giant)
Feats (>10): Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword)...
Skills (>60): Ride 1... No Bluff.
Abilities: -
Items: cursed crown of Xykon, boots, heavy armor and in Miko's possession -- Bag of Tricks, starmetal, broken sword, greatclub, rock

Belkar Bitterleaf
Chaotic Evil, Halfling Male Ranger 11/ Barbarian 1
Attributes (18 pt buy min):
Str >14 (for his daggers to be effective, despite halfling)
Dex >16 (to boost light armor, halfling)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis 10 (min to use scrolls to save Elan, max before he can cast spells w/out aid)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats (10): Craft Disturbing Mental Image, Endurance, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting...
Skills (89): Climb, Hide (+4), Jump, Listen 0 (+2), Move Silently, Speak language (halfling)... No Search, Sense Motive, Spot or Survival.
Abilities: +1 saves, +1 thrown weapons, +2 v fear, Animal companion, Evasion, Fast movement, Favored class - rogue, Favored enemy x3, Rage, Small size, Swift tracker, Wild empathy, Woodland stride
Items: Ring of Jumping +20, riding dog, cloak, and in Miko's possession -- rock, lead sheet, 2 small daggers...

Durkon Thundershield
Lawful Good, Dwarven Male Cleric >11
Attributes (24 pt buy min):
Str >12 ("would make a good warrior")
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con >16 (dwarf)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis >16 (to cast Heal)
Cha <8 (mentions having low Cha)
Feats (>4): Extra Turning...
Skills (>29): Knowledge (Religion) >1 (but not much greater), Speak language (dwarven)... No Ride
Abilities: +1 v orcs and goblinoids, +2 v spells and poison, +4 dodge AC v giants, +2 to Appraise and Craft stone and metal, Darkvision, dwarf movement, favored class - fighter, stability, stonecunning, turn undead, weapon familiarity (dwarven waraxe, urgrosh)
Items: Amulet of Natural Armor, rock, full plate armor, holy symbol, girdle of masculinity/femininity, heirloom shield, heirloom warhammer...

Elan
Chaotic Good, Human Male Bard ~9
Attributes (26 pt buy min):
Str <8 (no evidence, but sprained shoulder lifting hoard)
Dex >14 (weapon finesse, tumble)
Con >14 (survives poisons and stabbings)
Int <8 (no evidence, but acts like an idiot)
Wis <8 (Roy says he has insufficient Wisdom to be priest, even to a puppet)
Cha >18 (confirmed by Haley, may have increased)
Feats (~5): Weapon Finesse...
Skills (~56): Diplomacy, Perform (Lute) >6, Perform (Kazoo), Ride >2, Tumble...
Abilities: bardic music, bardic knowledge, countersong, fascinate, inspire competence, inspire courage +2, inspire greatness, suggestion
Items: Boots of Elvenkind, cloak, sash, chain shirt, and in Miko's possession -- magic rapier, rock, lute, Banjo, coffee maker, kazoo, lantern, squirrel, horse, paddleball, jam, rollerskate
Spells (per day - 3 4 4 2; known - 6 4 4 3): Animate Rope, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Summon Plot Exposition

Haley Starshine
Chaotic Good, Human Female Rogue >10
Attributes (24 pt buy min):
Str ~10 (no evidence, probably dump stat)
Dex >17 (Haley never seems to miss a Dex check)
Con >14 (survives max'd lightning bolt + 5 magic missiles)
Int >13 (decent Search/Disable, smarter than Elan)
Wis <10 (prone to nervous breakdown)
Cha >13 (clearly attractive and persuasive, otherwise, no clue)
Feats (>5): Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot...
Skills (>113): Disable Device, Hide, Knowledge (Arcane), Search, Sense Motive, Tumble, Use Rope >8... No Ride
Abilities: Evasion, Improved uncanny dodge, Sneak attack +5d6, Special ability, Trapfinding, Trap sense +3, Uncanny dodge
Items: blindfold, and in Miko's possession -- 8 Bags of Holding, 1 bag of dragon hoard, 2 round gems, shortbow w/broken bowstring, quivers of green fletched arrows (inc'g silver and cold iron)...

Miko Miyazaki
Lawful good, Human Female Monk >2/Paladin >10
Attributes (27 pt buy min)
Str >13 (wield bastard sword one-handed)
Dex >17 (Improved Two Weapon Fighting)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis >12 (has a Wisdom modifier)
Cha >12 (she can lay on hands)
Feats (>9): Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Fighting, Stunning Fist, Quick Draw, Track, Two Weapon Fighting... and either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrow
Skills (>55): Ride, Sense Motive, Survival 1...
Abilities: Aura of courage, Aura of good, Detect evil, Divine grace, Divine health, Evasion, Flurry of blows, Lay on hands, Remove disease 2/day, Smite evil 3/day, Special mount, Turn undead, Unarmed strike
Items: Masterworked bastard sword, masterworked swortsword, light armor, blue cape, Windstrider, chains and manacles...

Vaarsuvius
Non-evil, Elven Ambiguously Gendered Wizard 12
Attributes (18 pt buy min):
Str <9 (mentions Str penalty)
Dex ~10 ("no real attack bonus" on rays, according to Giant)
Con <11 ("doesn't have a decent Con" according to Giant)
Int >18 (admits to illithid, may have increased)
Wis >10 ("moderate wisdom" according to giant)
Cha <9 (has Cha penalties)
Feats (9): Improved Counterspell (or makes heavy use of Dispells), Martial Weapon Proficiency (composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, longsword, rapier, shortbow and shortsword), Scribe Scroll... Not Silent Spell or Still Spell
Skills (91): Concentrate <14, Craft (Alchemy), Knowledge (Arcane), Listen (+2), Ride 0, Spot (+2), Search 0 (+2), Speak language (Elven), Spellcraft...
Abilities: +2 v enchantment, Favored class - wizard, Immune to sleep, Low-light vision, Summon familiar
Items: Ring of Wizardry (probably affects level 3 spells), raven familiar, golden circlet, robes, and in Miko's possession -- rock, lost claim ticket, spellbook, ink, paper, 27 Heroism potions, scrolls, two small gemstones...
Spells (per day -- 4 5 5 5 4 3 2): Bull's Strength, Chain Lightning, Cone of Cold, Crushing Despair, Disintegrate, Dispel Magic, Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, Expeditious Retreat, Explosive Runes, Feather Fall, Fireball, Haste, Hold Person, Hold Portal, Identify, Invisibility, discount Invisibility Sphere, Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile, Owl's Wisdom, Protection From Arrows, Scorching Ray, Sleep, Suggestion, Vampiric Touch...

BurntOfferings

2005-12-01, 05:58 PM

Miko Miyazaki
Lawful good, Human Female Monk >2/Paladin >11
Attributes (20 pt buy min)
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex >17 (Improved Two Weapon Fighting)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis >12 (has a Wisdom modifier)
Cha >12 (she can lay on hands)
Feats: Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Stunning Fist, Quick Draw, Track, Two Weapon Fighting...
Skills: Ride, Sense Motive, Survival 1...
Items: Longsword, swortsword, light armor, blue cape, Windstrider, chains and manacles...
The Giant has referred to Miko's primary weapon as a katana, which is equivalent to a masterwork bastard sword (not a long sword). A wakizashi is equivalent to a masterwork shortsword. The distinction is important, since
1. She almost certainly has Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword).
2. The "masterwork" bit means she gets a +1 enhancement bonus on her attacks, even if her weapons are nonmagical. But I suspect that they're highly magical (the katana, at least), so this is sort of moot.

Also, how do you know she has 11 levels of paladin? 10 would be sufficient to give her a BAB of +11 and five attacks per round.

Wrecan

2005-12-01, 07:33 PM

You're right on both counts. I had forgotten to add her Monk BAB and I had thought Giant had said her katana was a longsword, but I can't find that reference anywhere. I think that means we now know all of her Feats (or did I miscount?)

kilos

2005-12-01, 08:40 PM

Miko Miyazaki
Lawful good, Human Female Monk >2/Paladin >10
Attributes (24 pt buy min)
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex >17 (Improved Two Weapon Fighting)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis >12 (has a Wisdom modifier)
Cha >12 (she can lay on hands)
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Stunning Fist, Quick Draw, Track, Two Weapon Fighting
Skills: Ride, Sense Motive, Survival 1...
Items: Masterworked bastard sword, masterworked swortsword, light armor, blue cape, Windstrider, chains and manacles...

this may be a bit of a streach but shouldn't you list the items she took from the OotS?

Electric_Monkey

2005-12-01, 09:30 PM

Does Belkar's wisdom have to be as high as 10? I'd say that the total personality change points towards a non-standard Owl's Wisdom that adds more than 4 points (In effect the DM saying "This shouldn't work, but since it's your only chance, I'm going to say it does.")

BurntOfferings

2005-12-01, 10:36 PM

You're right on both counts. I had forgotten to add her Monk BAB and I had thought Giant had said her katana was a longsword, but I can't find that reference anywhere.
Someone made that claim, but it wasn't the Giant.

I think that means we now know all of her Feats (or did I miscount?)
She should have at least nine feats, total. She has at least five regular feats (1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th level), Improved Unarmed Strike plus two more monk bonus feats (1st and 2nd level), and one human bonus feat (1st level). So at the very least we're missing

1. Improved Unarmed Strike.
2. Another monk bonus feat, either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows. Either one would be a pretty good choice for her.
3. One more feat. Since all of her listed feats fit (albeit awkwardly) in her first 9 levels, it could be any feat she qualified for upon attaining 12th level.

She'll have more if she's 15th level or higher, or has a couple of levels of fighter that she hasn't told anyone about.

Her build is... strange. The only feats in our list that she could take at 1st level are Two-Weapon Fighting and Track. Track's just weird anyway, so 1st level is just as good a place as any, but TWF? A strange choice for a monk, but not necessarily for a powergaming monk who planned to multiclass as a paladin. Of course, there is one more feat unaccounted for. It could well be something reasonable that she could've taken at first level, like Dodge, Lightning Reflexes, or even Ability Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#abilityFocus).

Alas, my theory that she'd become a Blackguard is mechanically improbable. She has at most one of the three prerequisite feats. :P (Unless she really does have a couple of unrevealed levels of fighter....)

I've thought of another thing. In order to wield her katana one-handed, Miko needs a Strength score of at least 13, in addition to Exotic Weapon Proficiency (katana).

EDIT: I've thought of a third thing. How do we know she has a Wisdom bonus? (I'm assuming you meant "bonus" instead of "modifier" since even Elan has a Wisdom modifier.) According to the Giant's play-by-play of the unillustrated battle, she cast cure light wounds, so she has a Wisdom of at least 11, but nothing in her build requires a higher Wisdom. In fact, being a monk with a Wisdom of 11 is a pretty darn good reason to switch classes and put on some armor, in my opinion. :) However, if this is true, then she must be a 14th level paladin to cast two cure light wounds, meaning she's at least 16th level, meaning she has yet another feat. :P (Just for the record, I think she's probably got a Wis of 12+ and 11-12 levels in paladin, but the other possibility is not really that unlikely, especially when you consider that she's whooped up on the OotS twice now. The point is that a Wis of 12+ isn't certain.)

Nightmarenny

2005-12-01, 11:53 PM

Someone made that claim, but it wasn't the Giant.

She should have at least eight feats, total. She has at least five regular feats (1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th and 12th level), Improved Unarmed Strike plus two more monk bonus feats (1st and 2nd level), and one human bonus feat (1st level). So she has another monk bonus feat, either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows. Either one would be a pretty good choice for her. One other feat is also unaccounted for (more if she's 15th level or higher, or has a couple of levels of fighter that she hasn't told anyone about). And Improved Unarmed Strike isn't listed.

Her build is... strange. The only feats in our list that she could take at 1st level are Two-Weapon Fighting and Track. Track's just weird anyway, so 1st level is just as good a place as any, but TWF? A strange choice for a monk, but not necessarily for a powergaming monk who planned to multiclass as a paladin. Of course, there is one more feat unaccounted for. It could well be something she could take at first level, like Dodge, Lightning Reflexes, or even Ability Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#abilityFocus).

Alas, my theory that she'd become a Blackguard is mechanically improbable. She has at most one of the three prerequisite feats. :P (Unless she really does have a couple of unrevealed levels of fighter....)

I've thought of another thing. In order to wield her katana one-handed, Miko needs a Strength score of at least 13, in addition to Exotic Weapon Proficiency (katana).

EDIT: I've thought of a third thing. How do we know she has a Wisdom bonus? (I'm assuming you meant "bonus" instead of "modifier" since even Elan has a Wisdom modifier.) According to the Giant's play-by-play of the unillustrated battle, she cast cure light wounds, so she has a Wisdom of at least 11, but nothing in her build requires a higher Wisdom. In fact, being a monk with a Wisdom of 11 is a pretty darn good reason to switch classes and put on some armor, in my opinion. :) However, if this is true, then she must be a 14th level paladin, meaning she's at least 16th level, meaning she has yet another feat. :P

I can't racall does TWF count for unarmed?

BurntOfferings

2005-12-02, 12:09 AM

I can't racall does TWF count for unarmed?
If you're asking if you can use an unarmed strike as your offhand attack, then yes (it's considered a light weapon, too). But a monk's flurry of blows ability provides basically the same effect as TWF at 1st level, and it's not clear to me that you can combine the two. Maybe that's answered in the FAQ. Anyway, even if you can combine the two, a 1st level monk (BAB +0) making three attacks (all at -4) simply isn't going to hit anything that actually needs hitting. It might be more useful later on, when the monk's BAB is higher and his penalty for flurrying is zero, but the point is there are much more useful feats for a 1st level monk that TWF.

Electric_Monkey

2005-12-02, 12:40 AM

If you're asking if you can use an unarmed strike as your offhand attack, then yes (it's considered a light weapon, too). But a monk's flurry of blows ability provides basically the same effect as TWF at 1st level, and it's not clear to me that you can combine the two. Maybe that's answered in the FAQ. Anyway, even if you can combine the two, a 1st level monk (BAB +0) making three attacks (all at -4) simply isn't going to hit anything that actually needs hitting. It might be more useful later on, when the monk's BAB is higher and his penalty for flurrying is zero, but the point is there are much more useful feats for a 1st level monk that TWF.

Is it not possible that Miko could have been trained in the monastery with no intention of sending her out at first level? If that's the case, then usefulness at first level isn't an immediate concern.

Wrecan

2005-12-02, 09:55 AM

This is how I see her Feat progression.

First, she's an orphan. So she grabs a rank of cross-class survival before she even has a class and takes Track as her HUman Feat. She's trying to survive in the wilderness and find her parents.
Human: Track

Then the monks take her in and train her. Here, I think she takes standard monkish Feats.
1st level (Monk 1): ??
Monk: Improved Unarmed Strike
Monk 1st: Stunning Fist
Monk 2nd: Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows

Then Shojo gets her an immediately begins training her to be a kick-ass two-weapon fighter.
3rd level (Pal 1): Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)
6th level (Pal 4): Two Weapon Fighting
9th level (Pal 7): Quick Draw
12th level (Pal 10): Improved Two Weapon Fighting

So we're just missing her 1st level Monk Feat.

In order to wield her katana one-handed, Miko needs a Strength score of at least 13, in addition to Exotic Weapon Proficiency (katana).

Excellent point.

How do we know she has a Wisdom bonus?

She indicates to Belkar that she does when they're vying for position of party tracker. We know Belkar has a Wisdom modifier of +0. If he in any way thought she had average Wisdom, he wouldn't have backed down so easily. So she has at least a +1.

Asmodeus

2005-12-02, 02:27 PM

Here's a question...

We know that the human assassin is a shadow dancer.

What class is the dwarven assassin?

BurntOfferings

2005-12-02, 05:56 PM

I've got it! Miko's unknown 1st-level feat has got to be the one that modifies her Stunning Fist attacks so that the target has to make a Will save instead of the usual Fortitude save. ;D

Would you say she has ranks in Gather Information? She seemed to be using it frequently here (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=174), and apparently regretted not using it here (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=189). Granted, she interpreted the data incorrectly, but I'm not sure that interpretation is a function of the Gather Information skill.

She could've been using it untrained, of course.

LE4dGOLEM

2005-12-03, 10:55 AM

Here's a question...

We know that the human assassin is a shadow dancer.

What class is the dwarven assassin?

Alchemist, I think.

Also, what does Miko's cape *do*? It must be magical right? Have you ever met someone who wore a cape (IC) without it being magical?

Asmodeus

2005-12-03, 04:23 PM

I've never heard of Alchemist. What book is that from?

Reptile

2005-12-03, 06:20 PM

Vaarsuvius
Non-evil, ...

"Everyone in the party is of Good alignment except Belkar" (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1073635653 ;start=300#307)--The Giant

Wrecan

2005-12-04, 01:23 AM

Nice find!

Roy Greenhilt
Lawful Good, Human Male Fighter >9
Attributes (27 pt buy min):
Str >13 (Power attack)
Dex ~10 (no evidence, probably his dump stat)
Con >14 ("I have a lot of hit points")
Int >14 ("very good" according to giant)
Wis >14 ("very good" according to giant)
Cha >12 ("decent" according to giant)
Feats (>10): Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword)...
Skills (>60): Ride 1... No Bluff.
Abilities: -
Items: cursed crown of Xykon, boots, heavy armor and in Miko's possession -- Bag of Tricks, starmetal, broken sword, greatclub, rock

Belkar Bitterleaf
Chaotic Evil, Halfling Male Ranger 11/ Barbarian 1
Attributes (18 pt buy min):
Str >14 (for his daggers to be effective, despite halfling)
Dex >16 (to boost light armor, halfling)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis 10 (min to use scrolls to save Elan, max before he can cast spells w/out aid)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats (10): Craft Disturbing Mental Image, Endurance, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting...
Skills (89): Climb, Hide (+4), Jump, Listen 0 (+2), Move Silently, Speak language (halfling)... No Search, Sense Motive, Spot or Survival.
Abilities: +1 saves, +1 thrown weapons, +2 v fear, Animal companion, Evasion, Fast movement, Favored class - rogue, Favored enemy x3, Rage, Small size, Swift tracker, Wild empathy, Woodland stride
Items: Ring of Jumping +20, riding dog, cloak, and in Miko's possession -- rock, lead sheet, 2 small daggers...

Durkon Thundershield
Lawful Good, Dwarven Male Cleric >11
Attributes (24 pt buy min):
Str >12 ("would make a good warrior")
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con >16 (dwarf)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis >16 (to cast Heal)
Cha <8 (mentions having low Cha)
Feats (>4): Extra Turning...
Skills (>29): Knowledge (Religion) >1 (but not much greater), Speak language (dwarven)... No Ride
Abilities: +1 v orcs and goblinoids, +2 v spells and poison, +4 dodge AC v giants, +2 to Appraise and Craft stone and metal, Darkvision, dwarf movement, favored class - fighter, stability, stonecunning, turn undead, weapon familiarity (dwarven waraxe, urgrosh)
Items: Amulet of Natural Armor, rock, full plate armor, holy symbol, girdle of masculinity/femininity, heirloom shield, heirloom warhammer...

Elan
Chaotic Good, Human Male Bard ~9
Attributes (26 pt buy min):
Str <8 (no evidence, but sprained shoulder lifting hoard)
Dex >14 (weapon finesse, tumble)
Con >14 (survives poisons and stabbings)
Int <8 (no evidence, but acts like an idiot)
Wis <8 (Roy says he has insufficient Wisdom to be priest, even to a puppet)
Cha >18 (confirmed by Haley, may have increased)
Feats (~5): Weapon Finesse...
Skills (~56): Diplomacy, Perform (Lute) >6, Perform (Kazoo), Ride >2, Tumble...
Abilities: bardic music, bardic knowledge, countersong, fascinate, inspire competence, inspire courage +2, inspire greatness, suggestion
Items: Boots of Elvenkind, cloak, sash, chain shirt, and in Miko's possession -- magic rapier, rock, lute, Banjo, coffee maker, kazoo, lantern, squirrel, horse, paddleball, jam, rollerskate
Spells (per day - 3 4 4 2; known - 6 4 4 3): Animate Rope, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Summon Plot Exposition

Haley Starshine
Chaotic Good, Human Female Rogue >10
Attributes (24 pt buy min):
Str ~10 (no evidence, probably dump stat)
Dex >17 (Haley never seems to miss a Dex check)
Con >14 (survives max'd lightning bolt + 5 magic missiles)
Int >13 (decent Search/Disable, smarter than Elan)
Wis <10 (prone to nervous breakdown)
Cha >13 (clearly attractive and persuasive, otherwise, no clue)
Feats (>5): Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot...
Skills (>113): Disable Device, Hide, Knowledge (Arcane), Search, Sense Motive, Tumble, Use Rope >8... No Ride
Abilities: Evasion, Improved uncanny dodge, Sneak attack +5d6, Special ability, Trapfinding, Trap sense +3, Uncanny dodge
Items: blindfold, and in Miko's possession -- 8 Bags of Holding, 1 bag of dragon hoard, 2 round gems, shortbow w/broken bowstring, quivers of green fletched arrows (inc'g silver and cold iron)...

Miko Miyazaki
Lawful good, Human Female Monk >2/Paladin >10
Attributes (27 pt buy min)
Str >13 (wield bastard sword one-handed)
Dex >17 (Improved Two Weapon Fighting)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis >12 (has a Wisdom modifier)
Cha >12 (she can lay on hands)
Feats (>9): Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword), Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Fighting, Stunning Fist, Quick Draw, Track, Two Weapon Fighting... and either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrow
Skills (>55): Ride, Sense Motive, Survival 1...
Abilities: Aura of courage, Aura of good, Detect evil, Divine grace, Divine health, Evasion, Flurry of blows, Lay on hands, Remove disease 2/day, Smite evil 3/day, Special mount, Turn undead, Unarmed strike
Items: Masterworked bastard sword, masterworked swortsword, light armor, blue cape, Windstrider, chains and manacles...

Vaarsuvius
Good, Elven Ambiguously Gendered Wizard 12
Attributes (18 pt buy min):
Str <9 (mentions Str penalty)
Dex ~10 ("no real attack bonus" on rays, according to Giant)
Con <11 ("doesn't have a decent Con" according to Giant)
Int >18 (admits to illithid, may have increased)
Wis >10 ("moderate wisdom" according to giant)
Cha <9 (has Cha penalties)
Feats (9): Improved Counterspell (or makes heavy use of Dispells), Martial Weapon Proficiency (composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, longsword, rapier, shortbow and shortsword), Scribe Scroll... Not Silent Spell or Still Spell
Skills (91): Concentrate <14, Craft (Alchemy), Knowledge (Arcane), Listen (+2), Ride 0, Spot (+2), Search 0 (+2), Speak language (Elven), Spellcraft...
Abilities: +2 v enchantment, Favored class - wizard, Immune to sleep, Low-light vision, Summon familiar
Items: Ring of Wizardry (probably affects level 3 spells), raven familiar, golden circlet, robes, and in Miko's possession -- rock, lost claim ticket, spellbook, ink, paper, 27 Heroism potions, scrolls, two small gemstones...
Spells (per day -- 4 5 5 5 4 3 2): Bull's Strength, Chain Lightning, Cone of Cold, Crushing Despair, Disintegrate, Dispel Magic, Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, Expeditious Retreat, Explosive Runes, Feather Fall, Fireball, Haste, Hold Person, Hold Portal, Identify, Invisibility, discount Invisibility Sphere, Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile, Owl's Wisdom, Protection From Arrows, Scorching Ray, Sleep, Suggestion, Vampiric Touch...