Haste Scaling

[Spectre9000]

I was thinking of a way to better accentuate the feeling of a true arcane warrior. Haste just immediately stands out as the go to Arcane Warrior spell. However, magic melee is usually going to favor simply using Booming Blade and concentration on say Animate Objects. I was hoping to make a character feel more like a melee character than simply, a caster that happens to be in melee (as BB does no where near the damage of spells and other melee abilities martial classes get, except as a reaction).

So, my proposed addition to Haste:


At Higher Levels. If you cast this spell using
a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the duration is
concentration, up to 10 minutes. If you use a spell
slot of 5th level, the duration is up to 1 hour. If you
use a spell slot of 6th level or higher, the duration
is up to 8 hours, the range is Self, and when you
take the Attack Action granted by this spell, you can
make two weapon attacks. If you use a spell slot of
8th level, the duration is 24 hours. If you use a 9th
level spell slot, the spell lasts until it is dispelled,
and doesn't require concentration, and additionally
the Action granted by this spell can be used to cast
a cantrip. Using a spell slot of 5th level or higher,
your concentration on this spell can't be broken as a
result of taking damage, and each subsequent time
a creature is affected by this spell, without finishing
a short or long rest, it gains one point of exhaustion.

[Grey Watcher]

...

If you use a 9th level spell slot, the spell lasts until it is dispelled, and doesn't require concentration,

...

Given that monsters with Dispel Magic built in a pretty rare overall, this is definitely overkill. Heck, even 24 hours is excessive, but at least it's holding on to your concentration slot that entire time.


...

Using a spell slot of 5th level or higher,
your concentration on this spell can't be broken as a
result of taking damage, and each subsequent time
a creature is affected by this spell, without finishing
a short or long rest, it gains one point of exhaustion.

...

Not being able to lose a spell, especially one as powerful as haste, to damage is way too powerful for a 9th Level character. Maybe (mind you, maybe) this should be the bonus you get from blowing your 9th Level slot on Haste. But otherwise it's just way too much. The Adding Exhaustion to it helps a bit, but, especially with the increasing durations making multiple castings per day unnecessary, there's very little reason not to be Hasted constantly.

Being able to use Extra Attack or Cantrips with your Haste extra action is a good idea, and definitely the sort of thing I'd expect from using Haste at a higher level, but pulling off all the downsides, especially as quickly as you have written here is way off the scale.

[Spectre9000]

The 4th level 10 minutes, is for third casters for using their highest slot. Generally, I feel there's not a lot between 1 and 10, but there can arise situations where it would be good.

So, 5th level is the max level for a half-caster. I figure it was a good spot to give them something for using their highest level slot (looking at vengeance paladin), and I chose to make Haste so it can't lose concentration from taking damage. This doesn't allow them to cast it, then short rest and still have it, so they can't as easily avoid the exhaustion from multiple hastes.

From 6th level onward, its point is to allow melee casters a decent chance of keeping up in damage. If it fails, they can't cast it again if they wanted as they don't get a second 6th level slot till level 19 (IF they haven't MCed).

At 9th level, full casters have so many reality altering options that I would hardly think a quasi-perma Haste would break the game. It's certainly not going to be as effective as, well, every other option. It's still not worth using a 9th level spell slot on a daily basis for. Not when you can use Wish, Time Stop, or Meteor Swarm. An extra attack, +2 AC, and double movement just don't measure up. Each of the aforementioned spells are encounter enders. Furthermore, lets not even talk about that 7th level spell, Simulacrum even if it isn't cheesed, and made 9th level as some DM's homebrew it.

I disagree that making it so you don't lose concentration on it from damage makes it OP. Outside of flavor, people generally aren't going to choose this as their concentration spell. There are spells that add a lot more damage without any drawbacks except a spell slot. The point was to make this spell a serious pick against others that contend with it for concentration (which it still doesn't match up to alternatives in terms of damage and utility). To keep this up for any length of time, you'd need Warcaster and Bladesinger/Paladin on top of a high con with proficiency, and it could still fail on you, wasting a high level slot you can't easily replace (or can't replace at all in the case of half casters or and forcing you to take exhaustion if you do Haste again. If it was truly OP then Conjuration Wizards would be severely OP as they can summon a whole other being without fear of being near the fight, much less losing concentration on the few hits they do receive. If Haste failed every few rounds, then it would be worthless and wasted. No one in their right mind would choose to waste their high level slots on this. You eventually start having Concentration checks you can't hope to succeed on eventually as well. You want to tell someone they just lost 2 AC, their movement, an action they could use to disengage, and they're stunned for a round after taking a hit like that, at the expense of a 5th+ level spell slot? No one that fully understood those ramifications would use it.

[Morphic tide]

Personally, I think Haste scaling should be increasing it's effect, not it's duration. Although the point about 6th level spells being once per day until level 19 makes the balance of extreme duration, even Persist-style all-day duration, as part of it's upcast there a much more palatable thing.

Admittedly, I see the appeal of having Haste scale up in duration, but extreme long term buffs tend to act wonky.

[Spectre9000]

Personally, I think Haste scaling should be increasing it's effect, not it's duration. Although the point about 6th level spells being once per day until level 19 makes the balance of extreme duration, even Persist-style all-day duration, as part of it's upcast there a much more palatable thing.

Admittedly, I see the appeal of having Haste scale up in duration, but extreme long term buffs tend to act wonky.

Well, the thing about scaling without increasing duration is that it'll only be useful for 1 minute per long rest. If you're a melee caster dependent on it, not having it makes you feel a lot less like a melee caster as it's really the only spell that gives a caster that feel.

Also, I thought about giving a third attack, but since 9th level spells are gotten at 17th level, I didn't want to step on Fighters who get their fourth attack at 20. So I don't really know how else to scale it. I don't want to increase the AC due to bounded accuracy, so I'm not really sure what else to add.

[LeonBH]

If the concern is making the melee casters be able to use Haste in more than one fight, I think the increase in duration isn't the best way to go about it, though it is possibly the least complex. That's because your back to back encounters might not always happen literally one after the other -- in a dungeon crawl, there's still exploration; in other settings, a short rest, puzzles, or traveling might stretch more than 10 minutes in game. If your melee caster was saving the spell for the final boss battle, they may end up not casting it at all until that fight because casting it early, they won't know for sure if they'll make it to the BBEG before the duration expires.

Another way you could do it is, if cast at 4th level or higher, they get back "change" -- regain an expended 1st level slot. I think this is neat because third-casters and half-casters still have multiple 3rd level slots to cast regular haste with, and if that's their bread and butter, they will be saving this spell for that anyway. But, since they don't have that many slots in the first place, giving back change is a great way to entice them to use it here. It's also neat because it doesn't give that much benefit to the full casters who are in melee.

I also think that you should allow the extra action granted by Haste to cast a cantrip much earlier than 9th level -- perhaps even 5th level, or 6th level if you think giving the half-casters an extra cantrip on top of their attacks is too powerful.

[Spectre9000]

If the concern is making the melee casters be able to use Haste in more than one fight, I think the increase in duration isn't the best way to go about it, though it is possibly the least complex. That's because your back to back encounters might not always happen literally one after the other -- in a dungeon crawl, there's still exploration; in other settings, a short rest, puzzles, or traveling might stretch more than 10 minutes in game. If your melee caster was saving the spell for the final boss battle, they may end up not casting it at all until that fight because casting it early, they won't know for sure if they'll make it to the BBEG before the duration expires.
I agree with your points about duration. It's the reason later levels (6+) get a much higher duration time. Levels 5- get an increase in duration, which can help in those more drawn out fights, but they can still fall back to other spell slots (3rd) to use it more often throughout the day.



Another way you could do it is, if cast at 4th level or higher, they get back "change" -- regain an expended 1st level slot. I think this is neat because third-casters and half-casters still have multiple 3rd level slots to cast regular haste with, and if that's their bread and butter, they will be saving this spell for that anyway. But, since they don't have that many slots in the first place, giving back change is a great way to entice them to use it here. It's also neat because it doesn't give that much benefit to the full casters who are in melee.

This is an interesting idea, and one that might could work, but I only have Expert Divination to work off of as I don't see anything else that does this in 5e. I wouldn't know what would be considered "balanced" using that mechanic within a spell itself.


I also think that you should allow the extra action granted by Haste to cast a cantrip much earlier than 9th level -- perhaps even 5th level, or 6th level if you think giving the half-casters an extra cantrip on top of their attacks is too powerful.
I'm being very reserved with the cantrip simply because I'm very concerned about making it overpowered. My main concern with this is the Sorlock. Being able to cast 3 Eldritch Blasts in a single turn is very powerful. Allowing them to do it every combat round is, I feel, a little OP. It unfortunately gimps everyone else because of this, but that's the way it is. They really should have made Eldritch Blast a class feature than a spell... it would have solved so many balance issues.

[LeonBH]

As for balancing the mechanic where you get back "change" for casting at a higher level spell slot, you could peg it as just a 1st level spell for now. Just note that returning a level 1 spell slot for casting at 4th level or higher (so return a 1st level slot even if a 9th level slot was used to cast) is much weaker than Expert Divination, so this shouldn't be a very swingy mechanic. :)

If you're worried about the Sorlock's triple EB, then yes, you may want to raise the minimum spell slot level before you allow the cantrip to be cast. Alternatively, you could also draw inspiration from the Dual Wielding mechanic. If Haste is cast at 4th/5th level or higher, the extra action gained from Haste can be used to cast a cantrip, if they have not taken the Cast a Spell action this turn.