Building Illnoran Dragons & Dragonborn

[Durzan]

I am looking to adapt the Dragons from my setting of Illnora to D&D 3.5, and do so in a way that they can be used a PC race. With that being said, Level Adjustment is something that I quite blatantly ignore, but if you want to try assigning a LA, go for it. Here are the Main Points that I seek:

Illnoran Dragons:

Illnoran Dragons typically take place of True Dragons in the settings where they exist. Generally speaking, they are considered weaker than their MM counterparts. Illnoran Dragons are designed to be able to be PC's, although they still are going to be incredibly powerful compared to most players.
I do NOT want to use the Draconomicon's rules for Dragon PC's. They are extremely clunky, annoying, and basically neuter a dragon PC... which is a poor predicament for any dragon, of any kind... considering their low reproduction rates.
Type: Dragon
Hit Dice: Illnoran Dragons should start off play with 3 Dragon Racial HD (Treat these HD as though they were True Dragon HD). After that, Illnoran Dragons advance by Class Level, except the HD they always receive is a D12, regardless of the class's HD. An Illnoran Dragon can only advance in age categories when they've lived the appropriate number of years.
Size & Age Categories: Size and Age Catagories are different from Vanilla D&D Dragons. Wyrmling (0-5 Years, Tiny Size), Juvenile (6-15 Years, Small Size), Young Adult (16-20 Years Medium Size, 20-59 Large Size), Adult (60-300 Years Huge Size, 301-500 Years Gargantuan Size), Elder (Middle Age, 501-700 Years Collosal Size), Wyrm (701-900 Years, Old Age), Great Wyrm (901+ Years, Venerable age. Maximum Lifespan: +100+3d%).
Racial Modifiers: Illnoran Dragons gain racial modifiers to their Physical ability scores proportional to their size (Loosely derived from table 4-2 in the MM). They do not recieve any adjustments to Mental Ability scores, except when due to old age.
Natural Attacks: Illnoran Dragons gain all of the same natural attacks that a True Dragon does when appropriate (IE Bite, Claw, Wing, Tail Slap, Crush, Grappling, etc).
Breath Weapons (Su): An Illnoran Dragon gains a Primary line breath weapon of their choice once they reach the age of Young Adult (Chosen from Fire, Lightning, Acid, Cold, or Sonic). An Illnoran Dragon with a Wisdom Score of 15 or Higher gains a secondary cone Breath Weapon (Chosen from Slow Gas, Sleep Gas, Paralysis Gas, Weakening Gas, Poisonous Gas). The Illnoran Dragon's breath weapon functions exactly like a True Dragon's breath weapon.
Energy Immunities: Illnoran Dragons gain Energy Immunity to the energy type of their Primary breath weapon, and a vulnerability to the opposite energy type (or failing that there is an opposite energy type, usually Cold or Fire)
Damage Reduction (Su): An Illnoran Dragon of size Large or greater gains DR 5/Magic for every size categorylarger than Medium, up to a maximum DR of 20/magic.
Frightful Presence (Ex): An Illnoran Dragon of size Huge or larger gains the Frightful Presence ability, exactly like the True Dragon's ability.
Humanoid Form (Ex): This ability functions as Alternate Form, except where noted. Anytime with a successful Concentration Check (DC 15), An Illnoran Dragon may assume any Humanoid form (of Medium size or Smaller), or revert to their natural form, as a Full-Round Action. This form appears to be of the equivalent age to the Dragon's actual age (IE, if the dragon was a child, then his Humanoid form would also be a child). In either case, the Dragon's alternative form always bears some kind of resemblance to his Dragon Form (for example, a Dragon's eye color may remain the same no matter what form he assumes... and/or his hair color would probably match the colors of his scales). If surrounded by an anti-magic field, or under a spell/effect that would prevent the Dragon from transforming, then the Dragon remains in whatever his current form is.
Shape Breath: Illnoran Dragons gain the Shape Breath feat for free once they reach Young Adult age or higher.
Restriction: If an Illnoran Dragon has the ability to cast spells (From taking levels in a spell-casting class, as Illnoran Dragons do not have any natural spell-casting capabilities), they must assume a Humanoid Form to do so.
Other Special Abilities: Illnoran Dragons should get the Blindsense and Keen Senses abilities, even as the True Dragon.
Mentality: Curiosity and a thirst for knowledge are two traits that all dragons possess to one degree or another, and with some it might even rival a True Dragon's lust for treasure. Older dragons have long since learned how to control this impulse, but younger dragons are more likely to let their curiosity or thirst for knowledge to get the better of them. Just like people, such instincts and desires vary in strength and intensity, from dragon to dragon. Dragons often take a liking to forming small collections, usually in the form of shiny objects (Shiny objects appeal to their prey drive as well as their mating instincts) or items that store information: such as books. When given a chance, a dragon will pilfer or buy such objects that catch their eye and fit their individual taste. Often, these objects come to have meaning to the dragon, becoming tied to a past memory, an aspect of their personality, or perhaps something that the dragon likes. (For instance, a dragon befriended a Human knight who was kind to her when she visited Humanoid Lands. When the knight died, the dragon took his sword and stored it in her lair, taking care to polish and sharpen it regularly.) This practice, of course is the origin for the tales that dragons hoard vast amounts of treasure in their lairs.
Templates:I need at least 2 templates that can only apply to Illnoran Dragons. One that represents an exceptionally buff/tanky dragon, at least one that represents a more agile and aerodynamic type (would probably give a buff to dex as well as flight speed & manuverability), and perhaps one that represents an exceptionally wise or intelligent Illnoran Dragon with possibly a photographic memory or scrying ability.


Alright, begin your analysis, my fellow Home-brewing brethren! And I will take what you have to say into consideration!

I will post the ideas for Illnoran Dragonborn

[aimlessPolymath]

You may wish to modify existing homebrew to match your ideas of what a dragon should be. One good way is using some form of racial class, which the player is forced to take a specified number of levels of, based on their age category- this may be much easier than building some form of dragon advancement rules of your own. I've dragged some options out of my bookmarks:

Wyrmlord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?224235-3-5-The-Wyrmlord-a-dragon-(shaman)-by-any-other-name)
Notes: This starts as a human and turns into a dragon over time. It's probably pretty well balanced, since the guy who made it is pretty experienced with homebrew. It doesn't involve spellcasting (possibly with good reason), but a Sorcerer/Wyrmlord multiclass should sort that out. If you want to get rid of the auras as written (since it's dragon shaman-inspired), you could probably rewrite them as debuffs (playing off Frightful Presence). If combined with a simple race (say, a natural weapon or two and quadrupedal traits, plus dragon immunities), and some sort of rules treating a Sorcerer/Wyrmlord multiclass as dragon levels, you could do something good.

Monster Classes (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=270.0)
They probably have a more spellcaster-focused dragon option here. That said, a lot of stuff they did seems overpowered to me on first glance (i.e. it looks balanced against high optimization spellcasters). They also assume that CR=ECL, which is... not really what happens.

Trissociate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?234951-Trissociate-3-5-Base-Class-(PEACH))
Notes: This is the most build-your-own-class I have ever seen in my life. Example Dragon racial class (as written) would be Half-Dragon primary/ Sorcerer secondary/some martial secondary (or something- could be a place to put your template). While it doesn't pull off size category changes, you could insert them anyway if you liked.

That said, I have some questions.


Illnoran Dragons are designed to be able to be PC's, although they still are going to be incredibly powerful compared to most players.
In what sense should they be incredibly powerful? As PC's, I would expect them to be in line with other PCs of equivalent level. Do you mean that a high-level (i.e. old) dragon is incredibly powerful? That sounds OK, but the phrasing here implies that a dragon PC would be incredibly powerful compared to other PCs (of similar level).


Hit Dice: Illnoran Dragons should start off play with 3 Dragon Racial HD (Treat these HD as though they were True Dragon HD). After that, Illnoran Dragons advance by Class Level, except the HD they always receive is a D12, regardless of the class's HD. An Illnoran Dragon can only advance in age categories when they've lived the appropriate number of years.
Size & Age Categories: Size and Age Catagories are different from Vanilla D&D Dragons. Wyrmling (0-5 Years, Tiny Size), Juvenile (6-15 Years, Small Size), Young Adult (16-20 Years Medium Size, 20-59 Large Size), Adult (60-300 Years Huge Size, 301-500 Years Gargantuan Size), Elder (Middle Age, 501-700 Years Collosal Size), Wyrm (701-900 Years, Old Age), Great Wyrm (901+ Years, Venerable age. Maximum Lifespan: +100+3d%).
Two points: First, making every Hit Die they gain a d12 is actually out of line with how monsters normally advance by class levels (they gain the class's normal die), and seems pretty strange.
Second, how do these interact? Do you just have 3 dragon HD throughout your life? You mentioned that you want to drop Draconomicon levelling, but for what it's worth, it does include tables of level by age, and give rough estimations for power by level (if inflated).


Mentality: Curiosity and a thirst for knowledge are two traits that all dragons possess to one degree or another, and with some it might even rival a True Dragon's lust for treasure. Older dragons have long since learned how to control this impulse, but younger dragons are more likely to let their curiosity or thirst for knowledge to get the better of them. Just like people, such instincts and desires vary in strength and intensity, from dragon to dragon. Dragons often take a liking to forming small collections, usually in the form of shiny objects (Shiny objects appeal to their prey drive as well as their mating instincts) or items that store information: such as books. When given a chance, a dragon will pilfer or buy such objects that catch their eye and fit their individual taste. Often, these objects come to have meaning to the dragon, becoming tied to a past memory, an aspect of their personality, or perhaps something that the dragon likes. (For instance, a dragon befriended a Human knight who was kind to her when she visited Humanoid Lands. When the knight died, the dragon took his sword and stored it in her lair, taking care to polish and sharpen it regularly.) This practice, of course is the origin for the tales that dragons hoard vast amounts of treasure in their lairs.
Is this rules which should be included in the race, or fluff?

Re: templates: You could easily represent that with varying ability score allocation and Rogue or Monk levels vs. Fighter or Barbarian levels (or some form of Wizard-type levels) instead of a template.

[Durzan]

You may wish to modify existing homebrew to match your ideas of what a dragon should be. One good way is using some form of racial class, which the player is forced to take a specified number of levels of, based on their age category- this may be much easier than building some form of dragon advancement rules of your own. I've dragged some options out of my bookmarks:

I'll have to take a look at these. Although racial classes tend to rub me the wrong way, I might find something useful in them.


In what sense should they be incredibly powerful? As PC's, I would expect them to be in line with other PCs of equivalent level. Do you mean that a high-level (i.e. old) dragon is incredibly powerful? That sounds OK, but the phrasing here implies that a dragon PC would be incredibly powerful compared to other PCs (of similar level).

A dragon, even one thats been nerfed as much as the Illnoran Dragons have is definitely going to give normal race PC's a run for their money. If you look at Table 4-2 in the MM, you'll see how size effects an Illnoran Dragon. Add on top of that, their Humanoid Form ability, their natural attacks, bonuses from the 3 racial HD they get, class level abilities & other Racial abilities, Breath Weapons, the ability to fly, etc. You can start to see what I mean.


Two points: First, making every Hit Die they gain a d12 is actually out of line with how monsters normally advance by class levels (they gain the class's normal die), and seems pretty strange.

One way of looking at it was the idea was to treat Illnoran dragons sort of as Gestalt Characters when it comes to their racial HD and class levels. However, I was too chicken to fully implement it, so... well... kinda self explanatory. (May or may not be a good idea in general)

Another way of looking at it is the following: Dragons are supposed to be physically tough, and I figured that the toughness could be represented by the D12 HD of health to all classes vs adding additional Racial HD with all the benefits and drawbacks associated with it (IE substantially increasing ECL). Don't want too high an ECL, though as stated above, I do acknowledge it.


Second, how do these interact? Do you just have 3 dragon HD throughout your life? You mentioned that you want to drop Draconomicon levelling, but for what it's worth, it does include tables of level by age, and give rough estimations for power by level (if inflated).

Yes; the Dragons would only have 3 racial HD for their entire lives... Dragons in Illnora literally have to fight and struggle to survive, so naturally most are adventurers to some degree or another. The tables are a bit handy, I must admit.



Is this rules which should be included in the race, or fluff?

Yes. Just like how True Dragons have their own mentalities, so do Illnoran Dragons.


Re: templates: You could easily represent that with varying ability score allocation and Rogue or Monk levels vs. Fighter or Barbarian levels (or some form of Wizard-type levels) instead of a template.

True, but since their Racial Modifiers depend directly on the Dragon's size, it might prove to be a problem. At Tiny, an Illnoran Dragon would start out with the following racial stat adjustments: -8 Str, +4 Dex, -2 Con (due to being tiny), but as they would increase in size, their modifiers would start to shift to small (-4 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con), to Medium (+0 Str, +0 Dex, +0 Con), to large (+8 Str. -2 Dex, +4 Con), etc. And that is without adding in additional racial modifiers, ability score increase due to leveling up, etc.

The size penalties alone to Dexterity would quickly butcher any Agile Dragon build once they hit a size larger than Large... hence why I was considering a possible template. One that would reduce the strength bonus a bit to offset some of the penalty to Dexterity, and also grant greater maneuverability and speed while flying.

[aimlessPolymath]

In no particular order:


Yes. Just like how True Dragons have their own mentalities, so do Illnoran Dragons.
Sorry, yes to what? I'm basically asking if, somewhere in the racial rules, the dragon should have "Greed: A dragon possesses greed overwhelming (or whatever fluff). Whenever the dragon is presented with an opportunity to acquire significantly more of something (either material wealth with known value, or abstract wealth such as knowledge), the dragon must make a DC XX Will save to turn the opportunity down." followed by some quick rules regarding what qualifies, and modifiers based on apparent danger (for example).


One way of looking at it was the idea was to treat Illnoran dragons sort of as Gestalt Characters when it comes to their racial HD and class levels. However, I was too chicken to fully implement it, so... well... kinda self explanatory. (May or may not be a good idea in general)

Another way of looking at it is the following: Dragons are supposed to be physically tough, and I figured that the toughness could be represented by the D12 HD of health to all classes vs adding additional Racial HD with all the benefits and drawbacks associated with it (IE substantially increasing ECL). Don't want too high an ECL, though as stated above, I do acknowledge it.

I don't really think it's the best idea outside some form of racial progression. For one thing, it doesn't affect all classes evenly- a dragon barbarian has the same hit die as a dragon sorcerer. A simple (and generally equivalent) alternative is a +Con bonus, or the Improved Toughness feat (+1/level) some number of times, which is much fairer to the barbarian, or just relying on the normal Con bonus from size changes.


Yes; the Dragons would only have 3 racial HD for their entire lives.
This rather conflicts with what you said earlier, about the "gestalt" with normal class levels. Also, it makes it somewhat hard to balance the ECL of the creature, given that their stats change over time. Is an Illnoran Dragon 3 (no other levels) really CR 3 (or so) at Elder age (colossal, pretty much all natural weapons (I don't have the table), DR 20/Magic, etc? Are they really ECL 3, given that they can solo an entire encounter with a full attack?


A dragon, even one thats been nerfed as much as the Illnoran Dragons have is definitely going to give normal race PC's a run for their money. If you look at Table 4-2 in the MM, you'll see how size effects an Illnoran Dragon. Add on top of that, their Humanoid Form ability, their natural attacks, bonuses from the 3 racial HD they get, class level abilities & other Racial abilities, Breath Weapons, the ability to fly, etc. You can start to see what I mean.

I'd just like to confirm then that as a monster, these dragons would be built via taking the race, and then giving it class levels to advance it to whatever level you want them to be. If so, you don't really need a racial class to represent advancement of innate racial abilities.

Re: agility and size categories: You have a point there. However, I'm not sure that the Dex penalties are actually all that severe. It stops at a -2 penalty in the chart I found. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm)

[Durzan]

In no particular order:


Sorry, yes to what? I'm basically asking if, somewhere in the racial rules, the dragon should have "Greed: A dragon possesses greed overwhelming (or whatever fluff). Whenever the dragon is presented with an opportunity to acquire significantly more of something (either material wealth with known value, or abstract wealth such as knowledge), the dragon must make a DC XX Will save to turn the opportunity down." followed by some quick rules regarding what qualifies, and modifiers based on apparent danger (for example).

Huh... I didn't even realize that such a restriction even existed. In that case, then no, the mentality is really just fluff... describing how Dragons generally act and think... and therefore influencing how they should play.


I don't really think it's the best idea outside some form of racial progression. For one thing, it doesn't affect all classes evenly- a dragon barbarian has the same hit die as a dragon sorcerer. A simple (and generally equivalent) alternative is a +Con bonus, or the Improved Toughness feat (+1/level) some number of times, which is much fairer to the barbarian, or just relying on the normal Con bonus from size changes.

Fair Enough. I could give them Toughness and Improved Toughness as racial bonus feats instead,since regular old Toughness is a prerequisite.


This rather conflicts with what you said earlier, about the "gestalt" with normal class levels.

TBH I only really wanted the actual HD to be what was carried over. I was using the "Gestalt" thing as more of a comparison to actual rules that exist and as an explanation for where the weird rule came from... I wasn't actually planning to go "full Gestalt" with it, as that would be OP IMO, and would add the same amount of headache that I am trying to avoid by ditching the wierd level progression for dragons in the first place. (Though I have given it some consideration just as a thought experiment...)


Also, it makes it somewhat hard to balance the ECL of the creature, given that their stats change over time. Is an Illnoran Dragon 3 (no other levels) really CR 3 (or so) at Elder age (colossal, pretty much all natural weapons (I don't have the table), DR 20/Magic, etc? Are they really ECL 3, given that they can solo an entire encounter with a full attack?

No, definitely not. Although, to be fair, the Elder 3HD Dragon would be a bit of a glass cannon (All things considered). He'd have only the saves of 3rd level character, and would only have 2d12+3*Con Bonus+12 worth of HP, His Dexterity would be very low, and he would take a -1 penalty to all physical ability scores due to being a Middle Aged dragon. So While martial characters wouldn't be able to do anything up until higher levels, a caster of equal or slightly higher level would have the potential to wreak havoc on the dragon, depending on the spells used.

How the hell that elder dragon you speak of theoretically managed to survive long enough to reach the age of Elder without class levels is beyond me. Its logically impossible to have a 3HD dragon live long enough to become an Elder, as Illnoran Dragons basically have to grow up adventuring in order to survive long enough to even have the possibility to reach the Adult age category or higher. Basically, a Dragon has to take risks if they are to have a hope of surviving survive. Risks equals encounters, which equals XP, which equals a level up.

Why? This is because they tend to live in a plane of existence (called Draconia) that is an extremely harsh & dangerous environment, and is in a constant state of famine due to its isolated nature. This means that the various Dragon Clans are often fighting over good territory. Heck, the very act of survival would probably be an encounter on its own.A Dragon that doesn't have class levels is most certainly a dead dragon.



I'd just like to confirm then that as a monster, these dragons would be built via taking the race, and then giving it class levels to advance it to whatever level you want them to be. If so, you don't really need a racial class to represent advancement of innate racial abilities.

Exactly. A race that advances by class levels but has a number of starting racial HD is not uncommon in the MM. This is exactly how these dragons should advance.


Re: agility and size categories: You have a point there. However, I'm not sure that the Dex penalties are actually all that severe. It stops at a -2 penalty in the chart I found. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm)

Actually, the changes in the chart are cumulative. Going from Medium size to Colossal gives a net +24 Strength, -6 Dex, and a +16 to Constitution. A -6 to Dex is kinda a problem in the long run, especially when your AC is already low enough as it is. And if a creature shrinks, then you reverse the process. The bonuses to Strength and Constitution become penalties, and the penalties to Dex become plusses.

[aimlessPolymath]

Huh... I didn't even realize that such a restriction even existed. In that case, then no, the mentality is really just fluff... describing how Dragons generally act and think... and therefore influencing how they should play.
I just made it up- I wasn't sure if you wanted it to be part of racial rules or not.


No, definitely not. Although, to be fair, the Elder 3HD Dragon would be a bit of a glass cannon (All things considered). He'd have only the saves of 3rd level character, and would only have 2d12+3*Con Bonus+12 worth of HP, His Dexterity would be very low, and he would take a -1 penalty to all physical ability scores due to being a Middle Aged dragon. So While martial characters wouldn't be able to do anything up until higher levels, a caster of equal or slightly higher level would have the potential to wreak havoc on the dragon, depending on the spells used.

How the hell that elder dragon you speak of theoretically managed to survive long enough to reach the age of Elder without class levels is beyond me. Its logically impossible to have a 3HD dragon live long enough to become an Elder, as Illnoran Dragons basically have to grow up adventuring in order to survive long enough to even have the possibility to reach the Adult age category or higher. Basically, a Dragon has to take risks if they are to have a hope of surviving survive. Risks equals encounters, which equals XP, which equals a level up.

Why? This is because they tend to live in a plane of existence (called Draconia) that is an extremely harsh & dangerous environment, and is in a constant state of famine due to its isolated nature. This means that the various Dragon Clans are often fighting over good territory. Heck, the very act of survival would probably be an encounter on its own.A Dragon that doesn't have class levels is most certainly a dead dragon.

Eh... Dragons have all good saves and are immune to sleep, paralysis (i.e. ghoul touch), and charm person from their type, invisibility and blindness/deafness from blindsense, and grease via flight, which covers most of the ways to disable it quickly which I can think of before 3rd level spells- and note that he has +20 to Con from race (see below), so likely has many hit points (Around 50+) vs. most blasting options. Color Spray or Hypnotism are options, but are a bit niche options- one has a range limit, the other doesn't actually disable the target.

Re: survival: I don't know about the environment in which this grows, so I can't comment there- but I would point out that if you're making this argument, you'll want to put together some sort of level-by-age table to represent the experience a dragon of a given age has attained, or age-by-level table to show your players when you tell them that no, they can't be an Adult dragon, since they're starting out at ECL 3.

An argument could also be made that because of their racial abilities (especially at Large, when they pick up DR), they have a natural advantage over most challenges, and so get less XP (this is basically the argument behind LA). While this doesn't apply so strongly at low age categories, later on, they are clearly more powerful than an equivalent creature of similar level (at least for martial characters). Casters have it worse, since they lose caster levels (as well as most dragon benefits due to having to shapechange away), but a martially-focused dragon is scary.
(Of course, a self-buff spellcaster build...)

This argument would imply that while the character starts at 3 HD, to go from Medium to Large (or wherever you pick), they need to take a "level" in dragon HD to stay balanced. (Spellcasters might gain +1 level of spellcasting along with the HD). This process gives you some fine-tuning options if you want to rebalance the race. As a martial character, I would take a racial level if it gave me 2 points of armor, 4 points of Strength, 2 points of Con, and the benefits of a dragon chassis, some blindsense (maybe), damage reduction, &etc. Since a player often goes up more than one level in a single game year, the specific timing doesn't matter that much on a larger timescale.


Actually, the changes in the chart are cumulative. Going from Medium size to Colossal gives a net +24 Strength, -6 Dex, and a +16 to Constitution. A -6 to Dex is kinda a problem in the long run, especially when your AC is already low enough as it is. And if a creature shrinks, then you reverse the process. The bonuses to Strength and Constitution become penalties, and the penalties to Dex become plusses.
Medium to Large: -2
Large to Huge: -2
Huge to Gargantuan to Colossal: -0
(The first column is the old size, not the new one)
Net is -4, which, while big, isn't insurmountable.
Similarly, you actually have a +32 bonus to Strength, and +20 to Con.
And AC isn't much of a problem, since you pick up 2+3+4+5=14 natural armor along the way. Your size AC modifier is -8, which covers your Dex penalty and then some (barring touch spells).

[Durzan]

I just made it up- I wasn't sure if you wanted it to be part of racial rules or not.

Makes sense.


Eh... Dragons have all good saves and are immune to sleep, paralysis (i.e. ghoul touch), and charm person from their type, invisibility and blindness/deafness from blindsense, and grease via flight, which covers most of the ways to disable it quickly which I can think of before 3rd level spells- and note that he has +20 to Con from race (see below), so likely has many hit points (Around 50+) vs. most blasting options. Color Spray or Hypnotism are options, but are a bit niche options- one has a range limit, the other doesn't actually disable the target.

Note to self: Try to remember the implications of certain abilities and traits.


Re: survival: I don't know about the environment in which this grows, so I can't comment there- but I would point out that if you're making this argument, you'll want to put together some sort of level-by-age table to represent the experience a dragon of a given age has attained, or age-by-level table to show your players when you tell them that no, they can't be an Adult dragon, since they're starting out at ECL 3.

I'll add that to my bucket list.


An argument could also be made that because of their racial abilities (especially at Large, when they pick up DR), they have a natural advantage over most challenges, and so get less XP (this is basically the argument behind LA). While this doesn't apply so strongly at low age categories, later on, they are clearly more powerful than an equivalent creature of similar level (at least for martial characters). Casters have it worse, since they lose caster levels (as well as most dragon benefits due to having to shapechange away), but a martially-focused dragon is scary.
(Of course, a self-buff spellcaster build...)

Yeah, I can agree with that.


This argument would imply that while the character starts at 3 HD, to go from Medium to Large (or wherever you pick), they need to take a "level" in dragon HD to stay balanced. (Spellcasters might gain +1 level of spellcasting along with the HD). This process gives you some fine-tuning options if you want to rebalance the race. As a martial character, I would take a racial level if it gave me 2 points of armor, 4 points of Strength, 2 points of Con, and the benefits of a dragon chassis, some blindsense (maybe), damage reduction, &etc. Since a player often goes up more than one level in a single game year, the specific timing doesn't matter that much on a larger timescale.

That definitely explains the reasoning behind the Draconomicon leveling setup. I might end up just requiring dragons to take racial HD every so often, but in a more simplified way. Maybe 1 additional racial HD for every size increase might be appropriate?

Medium to Large: -2
Large to Huge: -2
Huge to Gargantuan to Colossal: -0
(The first column is the old size, not the new one)
Net is -4, which, while big, isn't insurmountable.
Similarly, you actually have a +32 bonus to Strength, and +20 to Con.
And AC isn't much of a problem, since you pick up 2+3+4+5=14 natural armor along the way. Your size AC modifier is -8, which covers your Dex penalty and then some (barring touch spells).[/QUOTE]

I'll concede that I did my calculations for Strength Bonus and Dex Penalty wrong... as when I did the math again in my head they came out the same as what you said... but the Con Bonus is still at a +16. Medium to Large: +4, Large to Huge: +4, Huge to Gargantuan: +4, Gargantuan to Colossal: +4... thats +16.

[Amechra]

The size growth is a bit... overwhelming, and demands a game where there's going to be space for your massive draconic butt. Would it be too awful for them to progress their Size a little more slowly? If the race capped at Huge normally, and then you could take a PrC that made you even more LARGEHUGE?

=---=

As an alternate idea, what if you did something similar to my Ogre (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444881-quot-My-race-is-a-proud-and-ancient-one-quot-3-5-Race-PEACH) race?

Basically, just start them off as a normal PC race, and then tweak upwards through racial feats/alternate class features/etc. Give them a bonus Dragon HD each time they gain an age category, maybe?

[Durzan]

The size growth is a bit... overwhelming, and demands a game where there's going to be space for your massive draconic butt. Would it be too awful for them to progress their Size a little more slowly? If the race capped at Huge normally, and then you could take a PrC that made you even more LARGEHUGE?

=---=

As an alternate idea, what if you did something similar to my Ogre (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444881-quot-My-race-is-a-proud-and-ancient-one-quot-3-5-Race-PEACH) race?

Basically, just start them off as a normal PC race, and then tweak upwards through racial feats/alternate class features/etc. Give them a bonus Dragon HD each time they gain an age category, maybe?

Actually, the bonus Dragon HD with each age category was something I was kinda leaning towards.