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Umbral Chicken
2007-07-21, 01:23 AM
From the SRD (fireball description)

You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.

AC for a pea-sized (fine) object: 13 (-5 dex, +8 size)

The description suggests that any material object will cause the bead to detonate. So is it possible for an archer to ready an action to fire on the bead and there-by cause the fireball to backfire on the caster?

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-21, 01:27 AM
I would add a hefty penalty, because the bead is moving so fast, but... wow, that's just awesome. Especially combined with feats/maneuvers that can give you an immediate attack.

EDIT: Oh, and a Dex check to see what square the explosion happened in.

santaclause3150
2007-07-21, 01:29 AM
Hmm...well is the AC for the fine object 13 when its staying still or moving? If you think about it, shooting a pea-sized object while its lying on the ground is one thing, shooting it while it is flying through the air is another.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-21, 01:36 AM
I once did something similar... contingency wall of stone in front of the caster upon him casting a fireball... So he cast a fireball, the stone wall showed up, the fireball hit the wall, and fried the caster... oops...

JackMage666
2007-07-21, 02:22 AM
Well, if you take into account the article I read that basically made the most powerful human beings in actual existance around 5th level or so, at max, then, "Yeah, it's totally possible." PCs are effectively superhumans.

Inyssius Tor
2007-07-21, 02:30 AM
Ah, the Alexandrian's Calibration (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html). A fine article; the person who wrote it posts here occasionally, and it's definitely on that list of repeated forum topics.

It isn't as high on the list as "the monk is overpowered," or "wizards don't seem that awesome to me," or "Tome of Battle is horrible/distilled from a combination of Thor's blood and liquid win", but it's definitely there.

TheAlmightyOne
2007-07-21, 03:27 AM
That is an awesome idea. I'd try it but everytime I try something cool like that the DM houserules it so everything goes his way.

Roog
2007-07-21, 03:53 AM
That is an awesome idea. I'd try it but everytime I try something cool like that the DM houserules it so everything goes his way.

Just make sure you have a list of those house rules.

lord_khaine
2007-07-21, 05:12 AM
i would say the fireball is moving to fast, its about the same as wanting to shot a arrow down with another arrow, if you would allow that you could also allow hitting the fireball i guess.

SITB
2007-07-21, 05:29 AM
It's Math Time!

Let's see....

The fireball hits the intended target in 6 or less seconds, and it's maximum range is 400 feet (which is about 120 meter). Ergo, the fire 'bead' has the speed of 20(m/s) which is quite fast and unlikely to be hit by an arrow.

Unless, it's epic or something; but if then why do you need to shot at the fireball at all?

tainsouvra
2007-07-21, 05:33 AM
Complications...

A fast-moving arrowhead might not be big enough to count as "a material body or solid barrier". The idea is that the fireball-seed hits something that stops it so it blasts where it hits, not that it's so volatile that the slightest disturbance sets it off. The spell might burn the arrow but continue on its path, since it's not big enough to stop it.

That AC of 13 is for a stationary object. This is an object that travels to its destination so fast it's basically instantaneous. Waaaaaay higher AC for a fast-moving target.

Because the fireball-seed travels so quickly and doesn't exist until it's already on its way, it's not just a matter of being a good shot, it's going to take some very fast reflexes to get a shot off in time at all...I'd roll it as a reflex save against the spell's DC to even be able to take the attack roll--otherwise, you just weren't quick enough on the release to catch it before it went off.

If you are actually in the explosive radius of the fireball, and you either miss your shot or aren't quick enough to take it, you were focusing on aiming your bow rather than getting out of the way. Auto-fail on the reflex save for half damage, since you weren't even trying to avoid it, would be fair.

Assuming you do hit, and the DM rules an arrow is big enough to count as "a material body or solid barrier", either have it burst at half its intended range or roll randomly for distance (DM should call that one), as the bead doesn't exist until it's already streaking toward its target and thus the time for the arrow to reach it is quite probably enough for the caster to no longer be in the blast radius.

It's a nice idea, and might be situationally useful, but I just don't see it as being practical. It's significantly more difficult than shooting another arrow midflight, assuming your DM rules that an arrow can set it off in the first place, and you generally aren't going to catch the caster himself in the blast while you're putting yourself at a significant disadvantage by not just getting out of the way ASAP.


The fireball hits the intended target in 6 or less seconds, and it's maximum range is 400 feet (which is about 120 meter). Ergo, the fire 'bead' has the speed of 20(m/s) which is quite fast and unlikely to be hit by an arrow. I'd just like to point out that that's a bare-minimum way of looking at the speed. It's probably a lot faster.

Casting Fireball is a standard action, which leaves your move action, and the bead doesn't start exist/move until your casting is complete. That means that the caster is able to move 30', cast the spell, and then have it streak toward the target...in under 6 seconds.

That sucker's moving.

mostlyharmful
2007-07-21, 05:38 AM
It's Math Time!

Let's see....

The fireball hits the intended target in 6 or less seconds, and it's maximum range is 400 feet (which is about 120 meter). Ergo, the fire 'bead' has the speed of 20(m/s) which is quite fast and unlikely to be hit by an arrow.

Unless, it's epic or something; but if then why do you need to shot at the fireball at all?

It takes up to 6 seconds to cast the spell, how much of that time is spent with the caster looking bad-ass with flamey death on the way to it's target is up to the DM, and since the time taken doesn't change with range I'd rule that it's pretty much instantatious ala bullet speed.

SITB
2007-07-21, 05:41 AM
I meant it as the bare minimum, but I take your points.

tainsouvra
2007-07-21, 05:41 AM
how much of that time is spent with the caster looking bad-ass with flamey death on the way to it's target is up to the DM Well, not really. If the spell is interrupted (say, by an AoO), no flamey-death goes anywhere. That means flamey-death doesn't start until the casting is complete :smallsmile:

Swooper
2007-07-21, 05:49 AM
It's Math Time!

Let's see....

The fireball hits the intended target in 6 or less seconds, and it's maximum range is 400 feet (which is about 120 meter). Ergo, the fire 'bead' has the speed of 20(m/s) which is quite fast and unlikely to be hit by an arrow.

Unless, it's epic or something; but if then why do you need to shot at the fireball at all?
Actually, maximum range is 1200 feet for a 20th level caster. It's 400ft+40ft/CL. So a 20th level caster would have a max range of 400+(20x40)=1200ft. Note that this is, in fact, not the absolute maximum: Archmage, for instance, can take the 'Spell Power' special ability which boosts CL by one each time it's taken. Epic casters continue to increase the range as they gain levels, there's no hard cap on it like with the damage. A 100th level (silly, I know) wizard with 5 levels of Archmage, all used for Spell Power has a maximum range of 400+(105x40)=4600 feet.:smallbiggrin:

mostlyharmful
2007-07-21, 05:57 AM
Or you could use Enlarge (either feat or rod) to double the range. Some of the books that mention Magefairs say they use the range of everyones fireballs as an indication of power and that those who use "enlarge" can sometimes pass themselves off as bigger than they are. I played a fun campaign in a wizard heavy world where a mostly rogue NPC was in charge with exactly this trick as his Archmage qualifications, he just diplomacered his way up the political foodchain until he was completely out of his depth and had to get his friends (us) to essentially kidnap him and run for it.

kjones
2007-07-21, 07:57 AM
You could get away with AC 13 by exploiting the lack of any rules concerning the difficulty of hitting a moving target. However, it would be extremely unrealistic.

Furthermore, since Fireball has a duration of "Instantaneous", that means to me that it travels in no time at all, meaning that its speed is undefined, because you can't divide by zero.

brian c
2007-07-21, 08:54 AM
You could get away with AC 13 by exploiting the lack of any rules concerning the difficulty of hitting a moving target. However, it would be extremely unrealistic.

Furthermore, since Fireball has a duration of "Instantaneous", that means to me that it travels in no time at all, meaning that its speed is undefined, because you can't divide by zero.

I don't think that's the right interpretation of Instantaneous. All that means is that you can't dispell a fireball when it's on the way to the target; the spell itself is instantaneous in creating the fire seed thingy, which then goes to the target at a finite (though very high) speed.

I would say that if an archer readied an action "to shoot an arrow once the caster casts fireball" then it would be about an AC 20 to hit. That requires the assumption that the caster will use fireball though. Any other circumstances I'd have trouble allowing that.

kjones
2007-07-21, 09:07 AM
The "infinite speed" bit was a joke, though I would still argue it to be true. After all, magic defies reality anyways; why not go all out?

I would set the AC much higher, around 30, because otherwise there are even more advantages to readying missile attacks on spellcasters... Seriously, AC 20 is something that a 1st level character with BAB +1 and 18 Dex could hit 25% of the time. (And this is without any attempts at optomization. Point Blank Shot? +1 within 30 ft. What if he's a halfling? +1 for size. You could get this bonus up higher.) If you rule that the fireball goes off in the caster's face, which is not unreasonable, you're talking about a 1st level character doing 5d6 to a wizard-type (with reflex save for half). That's a lot, and even though it requires a fair bit of cleverness and alacrity to pull it off, I'd say that's just too much. AC 30 means you won't be hitting it until about 5th level, which is the same time wizards get fireball, so it's somewhat more even.

Talya
2007-07-21, 09:17 AM
Actually, maximum range is 1200 feet for a 20th level caster. It's 400ft+40ft/CL. So a 20th level caster would have a max range of 400+(20x40)=1200ft. Note that this is, in fact, not the absolute maximum: Archmage, for instance, can take the 'Spell Power' special ability which boosts CL by one each time it's taken. Epic casters continue to increase the range as they gain levels, there's no hard cap on it like with the damage. A 100th level (silly, I know) wizard with 5 levels of Archmage, all used for Spell Power has a maximum range of 400+(105x40)=4600 feet.:smallbiggrin:

Furthermore, as you can take a move action, then cast your fireball, it's 1200 feet in 3 seconds.

That is, unless you quicken it. As such iyou could take two move actions and then fire it 1200 feet in an instant...

Come to think of it, it's the casting that takes 3 seconds, not the travel time. It ALWAYS travels it's range in an instant.

SITB
2007-07-21, 09:24 AM
So fireball travels in speed comparable light speed. Hmmm...

So, would it be possible that most of the energy/damage vented from the fireball spell is in fact the transformed kinetic energy that the spell originally have?

Indon
2007-07-21, 09:28 AM
I'd probably give it an AC equal to that of a Fine object with a Dex equal to caster level+10, max 10. (So, a max AC of 23 at CL 10)

(Edit: Or, alternately, an AC of 13+CL, which would probably be easier to track)

Objects that are moving should probably not be treated as if they have 0 Dex.

tainsouvra
2007-07-21, 01:42 PM
If you rule that the fireball goes off in the caster's face, which is not unreasonable, I would rule that it's quite unreasonable. It's only possible for it to go off in the caster's face if the arrow travels to the caster dramatically faster than the firebead travels to its target, which I consider quite unreasonable due to the firebead's basically-instantaneous travel.

If an arrow moved to its target 10x faster than a firebead moved, Fireball wouldn't take such staggeringly-good reflexes and abilities to consistently outmaneuver. If an arrow doesn't move that much faster than a firebead, the firebead is going to be too far from the caster for it to "go off in his face".

JackMage666
2007-07-21, 01:47 PM
We could just make it a feat, not accessable until 9th level or above, which allows you to use an immediate action to shoot one arrow out of the sky. You can do with with Deflect Arrows, essentially.
Then, another at 12th or 15th that allows you to shoot down other objects, such as a fireball.

Fixed with Homebrewing!

horseboy
2007-07-21, 02:05 PM
Where is the archer in relation to the target? If the archer is in fact the target, he wouldn't have to worry about hitting the fast moving target, since relativistically for his shot the speed doesn't matter. Would it blow up in said mage's face? Well that would depend on how far apart they were.
So yeah, in D&D, with an archer as a target of a fireball spell, he could shoot it down, having it detonate at the middle of the two flights.

Randel
2007-07-21, 02:24 PM
Hmmm... would it be possible to target the fireball seed with Magic Missile? They both have the same casting time. Magic missile strikes unerringly, though it does say it can't damage inanimate objects.

I suppose you could treat it as a counter spell attempt that uses magic missile. If it succeeds the fireball goes off closer to the caster.

brian c
2007-07-21, 02:27 PM
I would rule that it's quite unreasonable. It's only possible for it to go off in the caster's face if the arrow travels to the caster dramatically faster than the firebead travels to its target, which I consider quite unreasonable due to the firebead's basically-instantaneous travel.

If an arrow moved to its target 10x faster than a firebead moved, Fireball wouldn't take such staggeringly-good reflexes and abilities to consistently outmaneuver. If an arrow doesn't move that much faster than a firebead, the firebead is going to be too far from the caster for it to "go off in his face".

Actually, I was thinking the fireball in the caster's face would be even more unreasonable, because at that point the arrow would probably be in his face too

JackMage666
2007-07-21, 02:28 PM
Magic Missile has a Medium range, so while it works, it's still getting closer to you than the caster.

Neek
2007-07-21, 04:03 PM
Check the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMissile.htm) on it. You can only target creatures with Magic Missile. So it wouldn't work against the Fireball bead.

Now, RAW does not account for movement in terms of AC. Look at flying creatures, even if its gliding or cannot hover, its AC does not change based on its movement for the round. It keeps things simple. But the speed at which it travels makes it nearly impossible to hit because you won't get a chance to hit it... unless the following occurs:

You go on the same initiative as the caster does and your Dex scores are the same. This means that, technically, your actions are simultaneously. Or, you ready an action to go "when that guy starts casting." So the caster starts casting Fireball. Make a Spellcraft check (cannot be made untrained). If you succeed, make your attack against it, if you fail, you can try to interrupt the caster at least. Say the speed gives it total concealment: even if you hit the AC there's a 50% chance you didn't on a percentile die.

That's how I'd rule it as a DM.

JackMage666
2007-07-21, 04:29 PM
Would certainly explain why a 5th level caster can't just decimate an entire town though... Ten archers standing by to shoot out the fireball beads.

JellyPooga
2007-07-21, 04:30 PM
A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit...

So if you're wearing gloves, does it "impact" on the inside of them?:smalltongue:

tainsouvra
2007-07-21, 06:36 PM
Would certainly explain why a 5th level caster can't just decimate an entire town though... Ten archers standing by to shoot out the fireball beads. Actually, it's a mix of "they've seen casters before" and "there's always a bigger fish" that stops that from happening, not first-level warriors with bows :smallsmile:

palindrome
2007-07-21, 07:40 PM
Actually, ten first level archers would probably be able to shoot down the caster himself. Fifth level caster won't have a high AC in all likelihood, and the ten archers would have a good enough chance at downing the caster and then not having to worry about any more fireballs.

Godhand
2007-07-21, 08:12 PM
Actually, ten first level archers would probably be able to shoot down the caster himself. Fifth level caster won't have a high AC in all likelihood, and the ten archers would have a good enough chance at downing the caster and then not having to worry about any more fireballs.

IF the wizard is casting at maximum distance, thats 600 feet at level 5. While I understand the wizard has a low AC and HP total, a massive range penalty applies to the archers, not the wizard. But this is of course all speculation.

The idea of shooting down the fireball is fascinating, but I believe, as others have stated, that only very high level characters could accomplish such a feat. Of course, a Resist Fire, Mass spell shuts down most fire spells at level 11+, but that's the craziness of high level wizardry.

Xan
2007-07-21, 08:26 PM
I think it would be vastly more effective to just ready an action to attack the spellcaster starts to cast a spell. I don't think you'd need spellcraft to beable to tell that the caster is doing something magical. Thus anyone could take that readied action. Hitting the spellcaster who probably has a low AC shouldn't be too hard and then you can force a concentration check for the damage. I would think that by doing this you would have a much higher chance to avoid being fireballed.

Neek
2007-07-21, 10:32 PM
I was saying, in reference to hitting the bead that he is shooting from his fingertip, not him directly. You could interrupt him and force a concentration check, but that's not what the OP was inquiring.

Gralamin
2007-07-21, 11:05 PM
Problem #1: The Archer knows nothing of magic. It would be a spellcraft check to even know he's casting fireball, though it wouldn't be unreasonable to allow a spot check to notice the bead once its been cast.

Problem #2: The Speed. This thing is moving at an extreme rate of speed, and is therefore very difficult to hit.

Problem #3: Intersect Location. If your arrow were to hit it, it would probably be very close to you. Since your arrow is much slower then the orb, it would be necessary to aim closer to you.

Problem #4: Is an Arrow enough? Would an arrow count as a Material body/solid barrier?

Neek
2007-07-21, 11:18 PM
@Gralamin. This is why I gave it total concealment, because I don't think the size scale/speed justify just how hard it is to hit. Let's use a good example for this:

If a first level warrior took 1 rank in Spellcraft, and was being assaulted by a 5th level wizard; the archer won initiative, and readies himself for a spell to be cast.

The Wizard casts Fireball, a 3rd level spell. Rolling a Spellcraft check against a 3rd level spell being cast is DC 18 (DC 15 base, +3 spell level). The common array on a 1st level Warrior has an Intelligence of 10 (+0), so the spellcraft check would be D20 + 1 (1 rank, +0 Intelligence). The warrior has a 17-20 to recognize the spell being cast (20% chance).

If the warrior attacks the bead, he's going against AC 13 (Dex -5, +8 size). He has a BAB of +1, and his common bow confers no strength bonus. This means he requires a roll of 12 or better on a d20 to hit the bead, or a 45% chance to hit.

If he scores a hit, there's a 50% chance he didn't.

Which means there's a good gap for failure at any point. It's no easy feat.

Pronounceable
2007-07-21, 11:42 PM
I like this. It proves a point.

RAW has nothing on speed improving AC, right? So theoretically, by RAW, the only thing that stands between the archer and shooting down the bead is initiative count. It's the wizard's turn, so archer can't act. But there's readied actions.

Also by RAW, projectiles have no speed, they're instantanous. So one could argue that it's only a matter of readying an action and shooting an AC 13 target with ANY kind of ranged weapon. Including improvized thrown weapons.

Any PC seriously argueing that deserves a meteor falling on his head however.


And what point does it prove you say? Every answer to the problem in this thread has DM ruling in it. It proves that "playing by RAW" is an exercise in futility, as shown below:

(DnD)-(Rule 0)=WTF

tainsouvra
2007-07-22, 12:12 AM
So theoretically, by RAW, the only thing that stands between the archer and shooting down the bead is initiative count. Well, and that the rules as written don't specify fast-moving tiny objects as being able to cause an early detonation. They specify a material body (as opposed to an ethereal/gaseous/incorporeal body, which it passes through) or a solid barrier (such as a wall or door, cover). Arrows aren't really in the RAW, as they are neither a material body nor a solid barrier, so the fireball-stopper shot is a clever proposal for the DM to consider carefully and rule0, not a RAW given.

The fireball-bead could just as easily incinerate the arrow as it passes, deflect the arrow aside with its greater energy, pass through it without stopping since the bead isn't 100% solid, etc as a flavor explanation of why that doesn't work within the rules...but such an explanation is rule0, as no RAW explanation is given other than "didn't fit early detonation criteria".

Gralamin
2007-07-22, 12:28 AM
Neek and I did some calculations on the IRC. Assuming you can get about 100 archers built below, one should hit the bead, using neeks method. (Spellcraft check, Attack roll, and Concealment)

Fireball Spellcraft DC 18
To hit DC 18 (Assuming it gets the Wizard's Dex to AC, which we are calling 0 currently. Your results may vary.)
This is assuming a range of 50 to 1000 feet

Human Warrior 1
1 rank in Spellcraft
Feat: Skill focus(Spellcraft)
Feat: Magical Aptitude
Masterwork Tool of Spellcraft (Draconic/Draconic Sign language dictionary) 50 gp.
Longbow (75 gp)
Spell craft check is: 1+3+2+2+0 (int) = +8, requiring a 10 or higher (55% chance to succeed)
+1 to hit from BAB + 0 from Dex - 10 from 6 range increments (1st doesn't have a penalty) = -9 to hit, requiring a natural 20. (5%)
50% miss chance from concealment.
0.55*0.05*0.5 = 0.01375 (1.4%)

100/1.4 = 72 Archers needed

Since Aid Another Can only help on Skill checks in this regard, that nets a 2.5% chance, assuming you have 6 aiding you. That means you need 40 squads of 7 people, or 280 archers. defiantly not as efficient.

tainsouvra
2007-07-22, 11:50 AM
0.55*0.05*0.5 = 0.01375 (1.4%)

100/1.4 = 72 Archers needed That's assuming an average result, not seeing how many are needed to have a certain probability of success, just for the record.

With a 0.986 chance of failure, 72 archers would have a 36% chance of all failing. :smallcool:

Hectonkhyres
2007-07-22, 08:10 PM
Hmm. If this was an off-the-top-of-my-head ruling...

As a DM, I would say that the pea-sized fireball would hover at the tip of the mage-bastard's finger for perhaps a full second in the last moments of casting. That would make hitting it considerably easier. I would also judge that if anything happens to the finger itself, the fireball would have a 20% chance of detonating at once and a 60% chance of veering off in some random direction to cause unintended chaos and bloodshed.

Of course that would just be because I am a bastard who likes to keep things interesting. Homebrew as all hell though.