PDA

View Full Version : DM Help My players have rescued a bunch of drow kids



MonkeySage
2017-02-03, 10:23 AM
Young drow children have just been rescued from a lich's lab. The lich had been performing experiments on the kids that'd make Mengele blush. My players, mostly good, with a chaotic good plane of shadow outsider that looks like an elf, and a neutral evil wood elf ranger, came in, killed the lich, and are now ready to take the kids home... to the Underdark.

Any tips for running this mission? I've never run an adventure in the underdark before, and further more I'm not entirely sure how drow commoners might react to having their kids returned to them by surface dwellers.

Keltest
2017-02-03, 10:32 AM
Frankly, that's probably a bad idea for both the players and the kids. Drow, as a rule, have very little respect for familial ties for their own sake. Unless these kids are destined to be super-drow that will lead them to conquer all their rivals or something, theres a good chance they will just be dumped on the streets somewhere by whoever they turn the kids over to. They certainly aren't going to waste time tracking down the families of commoners, and their families certainly aren't going to spend any time crying over children too stupid to avoid getting kidnapped. Life is hard enough for them as it is without having to take care of such a burden.

Also, the Underdark kind of sucks as a place to be in. Everything wants to kill you.

Max_Killjoy
2017-02-03, 10:37 AM
The PCs and the kids are probably better off finding a home for the kids on the surface.

Red Fel
2017-02-03, 10:40 AM
Young drow children have just been rescued from a lich's lab. The lich had been performing experiments on the kids that'd make Mengele blush. My players, mostly good, with a chaotic good plane of shadow outsider that looks like an elf, and a neutral evil wood elf ranger, came in, killed the lich, and are now ready to take the kids home... to the Underdark.

Any tips for running this mission? I've never run an adventure in the underdark before, and further more I'm not entirely sure how drow commoners might react to having their kids returned to them by surface dwellers.

Not with gratitude. Drow don't generally feel positive things towards others, particularly surface dwellers. In fact, some might just straight-up kill the kids for being "weak" or "stupid" enough to have been abducted, or for having become "contaminated" by the Lich's experiments. Drow are legitimately horrible, as a rule. (With some exceptions.) You might instead consider delivering the kids to Drow who worship Eilistraee, the Chaotic Good Drow goddess of "Hey, let's not be horrible murderous stereotypes, you guys."

There are two advantages to that. One, your PCs won't have to compromise their morals by delivering these tortured, traumatized kids into the hands of horrible people who will torture and traumatize them further. Two, a number of Eilistraee worshipers live on the surface, because in the Underdark they tend to get hunted down and slaughtered for daring to not be complete jerks.

Which leads us to Underdark adventures. The short version is that the Underdark isn't just a cave, and it isn't just a dungeon. It's a vast underground ecosystem where everything, down to the fungus and rocks, is actively trying to murder and eat you, at best. Sometimes they have even worse plans for you. Roving Drow bands will capture and enslave you; Mindflayers will capture you and use your skulls as incubators, or just straight-up eat your brains; horrifying aberrations will flay the skin from your bones because that's how they say hello in my nightmares. Everything outside of some settlements is pitch black; if you use a torch, it can be seen by every predator for miles, and you will die. If you lose your way, you may never find a path back to the surface, and you will die. If you encounter anything that speaks, it wants to do horrible things to you, and you will die. If you find a quiet corner where nothing is following you or trying to kill you, that means that there's something there that terrifies even the other horrifying monsters, and you will die.

That's what an Underdark adventure is. It's an endless, dark world of unremitting terror, not from fear or the unknown, but from the fact that everything there, without exception, carries at the forefront of its mind the desire to kill you. Probably slowly.

Leewei
2017-02-03, 01:25 PM
Not with gratitude. Drow don't generally feel positive things towards others, particularly surface dwellers. In fact, some might just straight-up kill the kids for being "weak" or "stupid" enough to have been abducted, or for having become "contaminated" by the Lich's experiments. Drow are legitimately horrible, as a rule. (With some exceptions.) You might instead consider delivering the kids to Drow who worship Eilistraee, the Chaotic Good Drow goddess of "Hey, let's not be horrible murderous stereotypes, you guys."

There are two advantages to that. One, your PCs won't have to compromise their morals by delivering these tortured, traumatized kids into the hands of horrible people who will torture and traumatize them further. Two, a number of Eilistraee worshipers live on the surface, because in the Underdark they tend to get hunted down and slaughtered for daring to not be complete jerks.

...

I second the Eilistraee idea. The encampment may be kept well-hidden, which in turn means the PCs could need to quest to find it. Don't just make the kids a burden on the PCs. Make them impressionable - one may start to emulate the biggest badass in the party, for instance. Look to movies such as The Professional and Despicable Me for great examples and ideas.

Also, have this act attract the attention of powerful Good beings. When children are at risk, some people may do extraordinary things.

wardeng
2017-02-03, 01:36 PM
If I was a player in that party, I would apprentice one of them as my squire. If they are not horrible ********s at this particular junction, then they have all kinds of uses as long-lived young people who owe me a favor. I would take them first to someone I trust for a few days and use my fabulous adventuring wealth from the lich's lair to leverage myself into some kind of land or estate. Hire a tutor to teach them how to keep the land, turn a profit on excess vegetables and wheat, and foster their creativity and their interests. Down the road, I would love them as a father would, teach them all that I know and inevitably train them as forces for good.

When you think about it, 1000 years of goodness is a lot of change in the world compared to my lowly human lifespan and I'm doing a lot of good in the world by taking these kids under my wing. And when you consider there are more than 1 of them, that really looks good on the resume. :smallwink:

Darth Tom
2017-02-03, 02:31 PM
Depending on your players, their characters and the general tone of the game, some of the thoughts above could themselves lead to an adventure. The PCs decide to do the right thing and return the kids home, battle their way through the Underdark, and get a warm fuzzy feeling from trying to help. Only to discover that the kids will be killed, used as bait, sacrificed... whatever, the point being that the heroes can show how committed to Good they are by rescuing the kids from their own people and take responsibility for their well-being since no one else will. Perhaps even finding caring homes for Drow kids could be a challenge which the PCs would have to overcome either through favours or convincing the people to give them a chance. Interesting roleplaying opportunities.

Malimar
2017-02-03, 02:46 PM
I've got a drow paladin PC whose backstory involves being taken in by warriors of Bahamut and raised by the temple. She would suggest bringing them to your favorite Good church to be raised in service of Good.

Whatever they do, the PCs shouldn't return them to the Underdark, for all the reasons outlined upthread, plus the whole deal where even if they do survive to adulthood raised by evil Drow, they'll just turn out to be evil Drow, ultimately making the world a worse place.

THAT SAID, you're the DM, not a player, so the most you should do is make it clear to the players why the Underdark isn't really a good place to return the Drow children to, and then let the players do whatever their little hearts decide on.

Max_Killjoy
2017-02-03, 02:49 PM
BTW, how many children are we actually talking about? I just realized it's never mentioned in the OP.

ErebusVonMori
2017-02-03, 03:01 PM
Sorry but I am the only one who now really wants to be in an Underdark game run by Red Fel?

SethoMarkus
2017-02-03, 03:11 PM
Sorry but I am the only one who now really wants to be in an Underdark game run by Red Fel?

To be fair, any game run by Red Fel is likely to be amazing. And deadly, ruthless, unforgiving, corrupt... Ah, to imagine such magnificence!

MonkeySage
2017-02-03, 03:52 PM
Four kids; one of whom served as meat suit to a shadow demon, and tried to eg the players on in that form (thus forcing the players to commit an evil act), but that didn't go well for the demon, lol.

oudeis
2017-02-03, 06:19 PM
I would also make it clear that these children are in constant and serious risk of going full darkside. The (stereo)typical Drow upbringing they had before they were kidnapped was only reinforced by the terror and torment of their captivity. 'The weak are meat and the strong shall eat' is less a philosophy than a proven natural law for them. Even the strength and force the party demonstrated taking down the Lich just proves that Power is the only real virtue. They will appear grateful to the party at first but privately will sneer at them for their fecklessness. Initially polite, they will rapidly start to test the limits of the party's forebearance. Deference will give way to condescension, gratitude to contempt, and respect to outright challenge. Small items will start to disappear or mysteriously get broken. The party will have to walk the knife's edge between maintaining discipline and acting in accordance with their beliefs. If they respond too forcefully the children will revert to outward displays of compliance but will in fact have adopted the Drow belief system wholeheartedly; if the party is too lenient the children may attempt to steal anything of value and escape while the party is asleep or even try to kill them in their bedrolls.

On the other hand, if by good roleplaying and good rolls the party are able to keep the children in train and delivery them to benevolent kinfolk, they will earn the favor of the Powers of Good (as Leewei pointed out) and any non-evil Drow in the region (Good news travels fast). Unfortunately, once the parents of these chlidren learn not only were their progeny rescued by inferior beings who follow worthless beliefs, but that that the very heirs to their House(s) are to be raised by contemptible traitors, the party will have earned themselves permanent, powerful, and insanely determined enemies (Bad news travels far).

Segev
2017-02-03, 08:06 PM
I don't know. They're kids, so the lessons learned so far may well have them engage in a CE cruelty towards those weaker than themselves, but lesson #1 in drow society for kids is "don't make mommy mad." With the horrific torments they've been through, they're more likely going to be TERRIFIED of angering the PCs (who are now "mommy" as well as powerful forces who crushed the most powerful horror they'd ever faced) than anything else. They may well play power games amongst each other. I would expect a great deal of tattling and attempts to frame each other in order to turn "mommy" against the others, when bullying outright doesn't work. But if a PC tells them to stand to, they'll quiver in place and do it...or break down in tears, begging for forgiveness and mercy that they don't expect. If there's boundary-testing, it will only be after mercy is shown...and they won't be doing it with "hah, they're weak" in mind. They'll be doing it as kids do, with a side order of terror at being caught and inability to help themselves.

I'd pay special attention to the former meat-puppet. What did the demon do in that poor kid's head? How did it affect him? There are a number of directions that could go. He could be the most bullied of the four, weak and broken from the experience, or he could be trying desperately to forget it and holding his own. Or he could be the worst of them, having had that evil thing warping his every perception and telling him that it's fun to be evil and capricious, and rewarding him when he approved of the demon's actions.

While all drow kids are broken in some way that eventually leads to the monsters the adults become, these are especially so, after even worse torments with less aim to "toughen" them than the usual excuses are given in drow society.

Blackhawk748
2017-02-03, 08:34 PM
These kids need hugs and cookies, stat!

MonkeySage
2017-02-04, 01:20 AM
So the players decided against taking em to the underdark, and are instead taking the kids to a nearby desert elf khanate, where they hope to find a Seer from the shadow outsider's past. :)

Keltest
2017-02-04, 08:33 AM
So the players decided against taking em to the underdark, and are instead taking the kids to a nearby desert elf khanate, where they hope to find a Seer from the shadow outsider's past. :)

Ah deserts. Is there anything you cant conveniently locate within the fringes of one?

dadada
2017-02-04, 10:55 AM
Of course,the desert elves have disappeared/been brutally murdered, forcing the PC's to keep the kids and train them. They then investigate,find out that it was the Drow matron of the kids! Then, in a climatic confrontation, they fight the house mother and the kids (who now have class levels) choose which side they're on.

Efrate
2017-02-05, 04:24 AM
A huge veto for going back home. If they were important enough to merit notice, they deserved to be kidnapped, and they will be tortured and executed by their mothers for weakness and bringing shame upon their houses with their weak and feeble nature. They will be culled, and they know this. The other option is the kids trying to rat out the PCs to said nobles in hopes of a bit of mercy and living a day or two longer. That is drow reality. If they make a name for themselves as heroes or whatever, those selfsame relatives will track them down and kill them and everyone they know or live with on the surface for disgracing their family name, even if no one else remembers them.

If they are commoners, they are so much rothe fodder.

I'd say you be doing them a favor to cut their throats in their sleep. Its kinder than what they will get, likely nicer than what they deserve because they've likely done worse already, and then dumping the bodies someone secluded. Like in one of the underdark areas that eats all the things. So pretty much anywhere. Then make sure no one knows the PCs ever helped them. Gotta cover your back. All problem solved and its a nice neat solution. Provided you know where to stand when you slit the throats. Can be messy, but any "good" adventurer should know how to avoid the spray.

edit: Color. Ranger should have made it look like an accident though, easy enough.

hamishspence
2017-02-05, 04:41 AM
This is a Good party with one Evil character, not an Evil party.

Plus, the average player is not going to like to be told "Best idea is to kill these young children" - child-killing tends to be something uncomfortable to commit in a roleplaying game.

ErebusVonMori
2017-02-05, 06:52 AM
In that case, if good drow can't be found, then the PCs should get the kids to hand them in to salvage their reputations and just escape.

Lord Raziere
2017-02-05, 07:54 AM
That's what an Underdark adventure is. It's an endless, dark world of unremitting terror, not from fear or the unknown, but from the fact that everything there, without exception, carries at the forefront of its mind the desire to kill you. Probably slowly.

"I've prepared a map of the Underdark for you, marking all the safe spots and all the danger zones."
"There is nothing but danger zones on here and I can't tell where we are going."
"Exactly."

You go into the Underdark, your going into a place you might never find your way out of if you don't have a plan for it. Taking a bunch of drow kids into that? Not even the drow are that crazy, mostly because drow kids are too valuable as slaves to drow adults to eventually raise into something decently useful someday. And yeah, even if you succeed they're probably going to be seen as commodities your selling. But even then, they will just screw you over by poisoning your meal as you discuss business then take the kids when your dead to sell to others for their own benefit, because why waste the money? Its not as if any Drow cares what happens to a foreigner who dies of That Wrong Tea Sip. Among the Drow, law only applies if you get caught.

Take the kids somewhere surface-like, don't let them near sharp objects and scold them whenever they mention something weird and cruel that some drow house person probably drilled into them. To bring a Drow back home through the Underdark is to drag them through continent-spanning murder-tunnels to get to an elven murder-city of slavery, murder politics in service to a murder spider queen of lies, so that they can grow up to heartless murder elves to betray their murder parents so that they can be powerful to worry about getting murdered by their murder children. That they create through their murder teachings.

Basically? Drow Classic are an entire race of sith lords who only sustain their society by trying to keep their pointless betrayal-murders, lies and paranoia hidden under a thin veneer of secrecy, subtlety and law, and in a pinch, those all slide for an outright war between Houses. they're not a safe place from the rest of the Underdark, they're just a part of the jungle but with more civilization decorations to fool you into thinking that your not going to die.

Segev
2017-02-05, 03:14 PM
Clearly, the best solution is to add to their neglect until they die of not one, but at least 3 sets of guardians' negligence. Then they'll rise as Slaymates, and your party necromancer can command undead them into liking him and his metamagic will be cheap!

Koo Rehtorb
2017-02-05, 03:26 PM
My vote is just turning them into a traveling circus act. With their racial bonuses to dex and cha they'll make perfect acrobats and showmen. Dress them up in sparkly matching outfits.

VoxRationis
2017-02-05, 09:14 PM
Don't drow practice selective breeding? Given the long generation time for drow, a child represents a lot of time investment. Even if they (much like drow) have no feelings for the children, they might reasonably blame the children's caretakers rather than the children for being kidnapped. If you spent 1000+ years carefully leading up to a product through careful management and experimentation and then a security guard gets himself killed and the product stolen, would you really fault the product?

That said, the environment they'd be welcomed back into is still dangerous and toxic.

Keltest
2017-02-06, 06:07 PM
Don't drow practice selective breeding? Given the long generation time for drow, a child represents a lot of time investment. Even if they (much like drow) have no feelings for the children, they might reasonably blame the children's caretakers rather than the children for being kidnapped. If you spent 1000+ years carefully leading up to a product through careful management and experimentation and then a security guard gets himself killed and the product stolen, would you really fault the product?

That said, the environment they'd be welcomed back into is still dangerous and toxic.

Not necessarily. Drow don't want to breed an obvious successor, because that successor will pretty inevitably overpower them and prematurely terminate their reign, not to mention the hostility from their siblings. Such a hypothetical uberdrow would probably be killed at birth by a rival, or their own family.

Cespenar
2017-02-07, 12:39 AM
Small tangent: to anyone who enjoyed Red Fel's description of the Underdark above, don't play the 5e Rage of Demons module.

Unless heavily edited, I guess.

Stealth Marmot
2017-02-07, 02:28 PM
\It's a vast underground ecosystem where everything, down to the fungus and rocks, is actively trying to murder and eat you, at best.
The Underdark is basically Underground Australia, only their bikini clad women want to torture and kill you, not surf.

Kyberwulf
2017-02-07, 02:56 PM
Even if they survive the Underdark, they will not survive any of the Drow communities. Unless they are willing to get down and dirty against a whole community. The Drow would most likely kill any of the elf looking members and enslave the rest. Unless they prove WAY to difficult to kill. The kids might be taken in depending on whose children they were. Otherwise they would be let lose where ever.

Rockphed
2017-02-07, 03:30 PM
The Underdark is basically Underground Australia, only their bikini clad women want to torture and kill you, not surf.

They surf on waves from destroyed brainpools.

MonkeySage
2017-02-07, 05:12 PM
Hehe, I wouldn't worry too much about my players. They are pretty much unstoppable demigods. I ditched the gloves a long time ago. I thought the battle with the lich would be a lot harder, but they dropped him in 3 rounds. The ranger averages nearly 100 damage in a good shot.

The first time I saw them truly struggle in a long time was when I had them tied up in a friendly battle with the barbarian's patron god. And they actually managed to land a couple hits on the deity, whose AC ridiculous.

Lord Raziere
2017-02-07, 10:10 PM
Hehe, I wouldn't worry too much about my players. They are pretty much unstoppable demigods. I ditched the gloves a long time ago. I thought the battle with the lich would be a lot harder, but they dropped him in 3 rounds. The ranger averages nearly 100 damage in a good shot.

The first time I saw them truly struggle in a long time was when I had them tied up in a friendly battle with the barbarian's patron god. And they actually managed to land a couple hits on the deity, whose AC ridiculous.

Its still not a good idea for the children.

Mostly because there is no point for unstoppable demigods to give them back when they could easily keep the drow children safe from any drow search parties they send to the surface. Even if the Drow are signing their death warrants by double-crossing you, its simply not worth going down there to make a deal to give them in the first place. If they're that strong, then they have better things to do than to go adventuring into the Underdark for no gain.

If they are truly demi-godlike, give the children to Elistraee herself and convince her to actually Do Something to reform Drow society in general so that they no longer worship an evil goddess of betrayal and stupidity like Lolth.

Efrate
2017-02-07, 10:20 PM
Or raid Correllon, cause its all part of his plot, and have him fix it.

Vizzerdrix
2017-02-08, 03:53 AM
Sorry but I am the only one who now really wants to be in an Underdark game run by Red Fel?

So long as I can use some shapesand, yeah. I bet it would be a hoot.

Stealth Marmot
2017-02-08, 08:45 AM
Sorry but I am the only one who now really wants to be in an Underdark game run by Red Fel?

To be perfectly honest, I am not sure he would care for it, he seems to have disdain for the Drow and the Underdark as a setting in general.

He describes the Underdark the way I've seen old school game reviewers describe Silver Surfer on the NES.

Red Fel
2017-02-08, 09:32 AM
To be perfectly honest, I am not sure he would care for it, he seems to have disdain for the Drow and the Underdark as a setting in general.

He describes the Underdark the way I've seen old school game reviewers describe Silver Surfer on the NES.

It's not so much disdain as bemusement. Well, certainly disdain for the Drow specifically, but not for the Underdark generally. I mean, I haven't stretched my DMing muscles in ages, but I like something with more intrigue and manipulation. Drow society apes that, but doesn't really hit the sweet spot; they're all pretty transparent in the long run. And the Underdark generally is great for fear-running-horror genre, but there's no elegance and nuance with brain-eating giant worms and ultraviolent fungi. Also, there's the fact that one of the key elements of horror is the pressure release - if you're simply fleeing or fighting your way from one peril to the next, without cease, it wears thin.

Don't get me wrong. If I decided to do an Underdark campaign, it would be with the understanding that (1) my players believed their PCs to be reasonably powerful, and (2) I wanted to see multiple adults cry. But as flattering as the praise in this thread has been, I somehow don't see that happening.

Now, some of the darker Outer Planes, on the other hand... Particularly the way Afroakuma describes them. I would love to be in a campaign with those.

Segev
2017-02-08, 10:36 AM
You know, the Underdark having an uncomfortable overlap with Pandemonium could be interesting. Both are cavernous, and it'd be pretty easy to slip from one into the other without noticing...


As for pressure release, there are at least two good ways to achieve that in the Underdark: safe camp sites, and "friendly" towns. Svirfneblin are paranoid and xenophobic, but not evil, so if you can earn their trust, you can be safe there. Camp, properly secured, can be a letting-up of terror, as well. It even has the benefits of being hard work, so you feel like your might and power have bought you something. (Add in that high level adventurers can do things like hole up in a magnificent mansion rather than slumming in the barren, fugi-infested caves, and it gets even safer. Of course, high-enough-level adventurers can teleport out of the Underdark when they want to. As long as the DM doesn't just say 'magic radiation' prevents it.)

For sufficiently strong adventurers, even stopping in a drow city is...feasible. It might take some politicking and some shows of force, but if each House in town is too worried that you'll side with the other against them (or just weaken them vs. their fellows by taking them on if they attack), you can enjoy a certain release of tension.

It's important to remember that the release of tension doesn't have to be total. It just has to be a noticeable slackening from the most recent maximum strain. Enough that, despite the background stress, they can take a moment to laugh and joke, to get a touch of emotional distance from the horrors they have faced and will later face.


But, I think the Underdark misses one of the most crucial elements of horror, to me: a means of empowerment that doesn't feel empowering. A tool for staying safe that works...but doesn't make you FEEL safe. Holding the vampire back with a cross (it works, but your every instinct is telling you that he could just walk right up to you), "hold your breath and the shadow-zombies can't see you" (it works, but you see THEM and they're RIGHT THERE and you need to breathe oh godlings I feel my chest straining against the need for air so I can run away), lines of salt can't be crossed by insert-evil-thing-here (but there's wind in these caves, and they're damp so it melts away, and oh no they're RIGHT THERE and how much salt did you bring is there a gap in your line!?).

Play up the Drow in a more faerie vibe and it could work. Elaborate on their rituals of hospitality. But remember they're Chaotic, so treat it as a game of Red Light/Green Light. Not only must you keep to the elaborate, arbitrary rituals to avoid official punishments, but you have to be watching for every hidden breaking of the taboos by your hosts. It's not cheating if you're not caught. Catch them, and they enact further ritualistic propitiations, and you have to respond to THOSE exactly right.

And the rituals? They're self-contradictory and mutually impossible; you HAVE to cheat one or more of them to pull of others; the key is to make sure you're always SEEN to be performing everything you have to. The cheating must happen without being observed. And there'd best be no evidence, either, because everybody is just looking for an excuse.

And of course, if no living witnesses saw it, it never happened...

Max_Killjoy
2017-02-08, 10:57 AM
For sufficiently strong adventurers, even stopping in a drow city is...feasible. It might take some politicking and some shows of force, but if each House in town is too worried that you'll side with the other against them (or just weaken them vs. their fellows by taking them on if they attack), you can enjoy a certain release of tension.


This makes me think of a Yojimbo / Fistful of Dollars / Last Man Standing plot with the PC(s) taking on the role of the triple-crossing stranger.

Lord Torath
2017-02-08, 02:50 PM
Ah deserts. Is there anything you cant conveniently locate within the fringes of one?The center of the desert! :smallbiggrin:


Of course, high-enough-level adventurers can teleport out of the Underdark when they want to. As long as the DM doesn't just say 'magic radiation' prevents it.) What if Gary says it? (D1-3) :smalltongue:

Stealth Marmot
2017-02-08, 02:59 PM
The center of the desert! :smallbiggrin:

What if Gary says it? (D1-3) :smalltongue:

Gary Gygax was a sadist when it came to making D&D modules and settings.

2D8HP
2017-02-08, 03:28 PM
The Underdark is basically Underground Australia, only their bikini clad women want to torture and kill you, not surf.



They surf on waves from destroyed brainpools.


My headcanon is now that all Drow speak with Australian accents.

:biggrin:


:mitd:

Segev
2017-02-08, 03:29 PM
What if Gary says it? (D1-3) :smalltongue:


Gary Gygax was a sadist when it came to making D&D modules and settings.

For all that we owe him for inventing the hobby, he took the lazy and heavy-handed way out of most "players are actually able to solve my puzzles" dungeon design problems: he forbade the solutions.

Forgivable for pioneers who are more busy developing the basics; less so for those of us working with mature systems and thus having the luxury of focusing on more elegant solutions.

Stealth Marmot
2017-02-08, 03:34 PM
My headcanon is now that all Drow speak with Australian accents.

:biggrin:


:mitd:

Someone with a thick Aussie accent, please record saying "Drizz't Do'Urden" and post it somewhere, I think we all need this.

Stealth Marmot
2017-02-08, 03:36 PM
For all that we owe him for inventing the hobby, he took the lazy and heavy-handed way out of most "players are actually able to solve my puzzles" dungeon design problems: he forbade the solutions.

Forgivable for pioneers who are more busy developing the basics; less so for those of us working with mature systems and thus having the luxury of focusing on more elegant solutions.

The Model T was a pioneer in car engineering, but you won't see someone driving one now. (Except maybe as a novelty)

Charliezard
2017-02-08, 04:15 PM
Make the drow children turn rouge and attack the players, that's sure to get rid of the problem! My DM did that once... I'll never forget the cat they made us kill.

Max_Killjoy
2017-02-08, 04:30 PM
Make the drow children turn rouge and attack the players, that's sure to get rid of the problem! My DM did that once... I'll never forget the cat they made us kill.

Why would the Drow kids turn red, and why would that lead to them attacking the PCs?

Segev
2017-02-08, 04:34 PM
Why would the Drow kids turn red, and why would that lead to them attacking the PCs?

I'm told that some people feel rouges are overpowdered. Maybe the PCs are allergic?

Lord Torath
2017-02-08, 05:48 PM
For all that we owe him for inventing the hobby, he took the lazy and heavy-handed way out of most "players are actually able to solve my puzzles" dungeon design problems: he forbade the solutions.

Forgivable for pioneers who are more busy developing the basics; less so for those of us working with mature systems and thus having the luxury of focusing on more elegant solutions.Isle of the Ape is particularly bad this way. All the denizens are venomous, immune to illusions, and impossible to see with infravision. I think he even outlawed summoning/conjuration to prevent you summoning cows or goats to draw out the monsters...

Keltest
2017-02-08, 05:56 PM
Isle of the Ape is particularly bad this way. All the denizens are venomous, immune to illusions, and impossible to see with infravision. I think he even outlawed summoning/conjuration to prevent you summoning cows or goats to draw out the monsters...

I thought that's what fighters were for?

Segev
2017-02-08, 05:58 PM
Tomb of Horrors is also guilty of this, though at least for Ethereal travel he resorted to hideously dangerous guards rather than "it just doesn't work, so nyah."


You know, it could be a fun exercise to try to, if not re-write ToH specifically, at least achieve a similarly deadly high-level dungeon...but without engaging in "your tools just don't work here" limitations. Design it to be that hard for people WITH those tools at their disposal.

Kelb_Panthera
2017-02-09, 07:48 AM
Quick question, how old is the oldest of the Drow kids?

'Cause if even one of 'em's close to the age of majority, put him in charge and dump 'em near a body of water big enough for fish in the forest.

As long as they've got a decent shot at survival, the PC's don't owe them a walk in the park or any kind of protection. Nature is a mean bitch but she's still neutral. The ranger can teach 'em some survival basics if he's feeling generous.

VoxRationis
2017-02-09, 08:27 AM
You would dump a group of minors, likely from an urban setting, in the middle of the woods, and consider it "generous" to teach them anything about surviving in the woods? That treatment would kill me almost definitely, and I'm well past the age of majority. It doesn't even matter that the urban environment is cutthroat—its relevant survival skills are not those of the woods.

Max_Killjoy
2017-02-09, 10:28 AM
Quick question, how old is the oldest of the Drow kids?

'Cause if even one of 'em's close to the age of majority, put him in charge and dump 'em near a body of water big enough for fish in the forest.

As long as they've got a decent shot at survival, the PC's don't owe them a walk in the park or any kind of protection. Nature is a mean bitch but she's still neutral. The ranger can teach 'em some survival basics if he's feeling generous.

If I were a GM and the players did this... I'd turn the one kid who survived into the baddest Determinator ever seen and have his/her driving goal be to make the PCs suffer as much as possible in revenge.

Segev
2017-02-09, 10:35 AM
If I were a GM and the players did this... I'd turn the one kid who survived into the baddest Determinator ever seen and have his/her driving goal be to make the PCs suffer as much as possible in revenge.

Of course, having become a determinator in the woods, his class should be ranger. And he should have some sort of tree-cat - maybe a panther - as his animal companion. As a ranger, dual-wielding is appropriate, and high-critical-range weapons are great for hunting down humanoids to make them suffer; let's give him scimitars.

Stealth Marmot
2017-02-09, 11:07 AM
Tomb of Horrors is also guilty of this, though at least for Ethereal travel he resorted to hideously dangerous guards rather than "it just doesn't work, so nyah."


I remember my first time reading the module and it says "If anyone goes ethereal a class IV demon appears in 1-6 rounds" or something similar and my reaction was "FIRST. SENTENCE." Because it was basically the first thing listed after the title page. No real introduction, no information on where to find the tomb or what to tell the players, just first things first, if your players try to do something smart, PUNISH THEM.

Max_Killjoy
2017-02-09, 11:16 AM
I remember my first time reading the module and it says "If anyone goes ethereal a class IV demon appears in 1-6 rounds" or something similar and my reaction was "FIRST. SENTENCE." Because it was basically the first thing listed after the title page. No real introduction, no information on where to find the tomb or what to tell the players, just first things first, if your players try to do something smart, PUNISH THEM.


Pretty much par for the course.


Players listen at doors before opening them? EAR PARASITES!

Players try to get the best armor they can? MONSTER THAT EATS METAL!

Etc.

Pugwampy
2017-02-09, 12:02 PM
You could keep em and let them carry all your loot . :smallbiggrin:

Crusher
2017-02-09, 12:27 PM
My headcanon is now that all Drow speak with Australian accents.

:biggrin:


:mitd:

ooh, done for me too.

Kelb_Panthera
2017-02-09, 06:10 PM
You would dump a group of minors, likely from an urban setting, in the middle of the woods, and consider it "generous" to teach them anything about surviving in the woods? That treatment would kill me almost definitely, and I'm well past the age of majority. It doesn't even matter that the urban environment is cutthroat—its relevant survival skills are not those of the woods.

You are not responsible for their survival. You've freed them from a situation where they were certainly doomed to a torturous death.

At least in a natural environment, they've got as fair a shot as any other creature. Note also, I said -if- one of them was old enough to leave in charge.

As for your survival in a wooded area with a fish-ridden body of water; I'd bet money you'd do better than you think.



If I were a GM and the players did this... I'd turn the one kid who survived into the baddest Determinator ever seen and have his/her driving goal be to make the PCs suffer as much as possible in revenge.

Bit of a leap to blame the PC's after rescuing them from certain doom just because the fair shot they got wasn't a great one. Hells, they could've passed one the keys to the lich's den (after proper looting, of course) and just walked away.

That's not to say it's unrealistic and "hey, plot hook!" I can work with that.



To both of you, leaving their survival in their hands is -not- the same as murdering them or dooming them to -certain- starvation. It's certainly not kind by any stretch but it's no more cruel than if their parents had been slain by beasts or disaster.

You could, I suppose, drop them off at the nearest settlement if you think the odds are too slim in the wild (though they're likely slimmer in any non-drow settlement) but unless you're prepared to settle down and raise them yourselves, you can't -guarantee- that they'll fair any better no matter where you leave them. I prefer the nature route because it seems to me to be their best bet, rough though it may be and knowing full well some of them won't beat the odds.

Cluedrew
2017-02-10, 09:23 AM
So we have established that the Underdark is actually "The Land Down Under"... is this a surprise?

Max_Killjoy
2017-02-10, 09:25 AM
So we have established that the Underdark is actually "The Land Down Under"... is this a surprise?

Insert Men at Work discography here. (http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jHXu86O01w)

Stealth Marmot
2017-02-10, 12:21 PM
If my only legacy that I gave all the Drow Australian accents, I'll die happy.

2D8HP
2017-02-10, 01:21 PM
So we have established that the Underdark is actually "The Land Down Under"... is this a surprise?


Dread Matron d'Shelia of House d'Bruce will not rest until her enemies are vanquished!

And how dare that Drizzt pal around with a panther instead of a 'roo or croc!

Sound the didgeridoo and ready the boomerang's, there's a "shrimp" to put on the barbie!


:mitd:

Segev
2017-02-10, 01:43 PM
"War digeridoos" sound exotic enough that they're FITTING for the Underdark.

Red Fel
2017-02-10, 01:47 PM
"War digeridoos" sound exotic enough that they're FITTING for the Underdark.

To be fair, take the sound of a didgeridoo and have it echo through the massive, pitch-black caverns of the Underdark, the sound distorting into a moaning wail thanks to the acoustics of the various tunnels, and that's a legitimately terrifying thing.

Segev
2017-02-10, 01:49 PM
To be fair, take the sound of a didgeridoo and have it echo through the massive, pitch-black caverns of the Underdark, the sound distorting into a moaning wail thanks to the acoustics of the various tunnels, and that's a legitimately terrifying thing.

I know! And it would carry forever, so as a communication system, it works...ish. Assuming the drow understand the signals well enough to hear it over the echo-distortions.

Boomerangs are more wide-open space weapons, though, so would not adapt to the underdark very well, sadly.

But yes. The didgeridoo in the underdark would be awesomely terrifying.

Red Fel
2017-02-10, 01:54 PM
I know! And it would carry forever, so as a communication system, it works...ish. Assuming the drow understand the signals well enough to hear it over the echo-distortions.

Boomerangs are more wide-open space weapons, though, so would not adapt to the underdark very well, sadly.

But yes. The didgeridoo in the underdark would be awesomely terrifying.

Actually, descriptions of the Underdark include massive, wide-open ecosystems, in addition to the claustrophobic tunnels. So there could be a subterranean outback; a strange race of underground women who dress in luminescent fungi; roving bands of raiders who attack and loot passers-by; a cavernous ceiling miles above that creaks and groans like the sounds of a storm; and worst of all, you've gone from the cramped tunnels to an area almost completely devoid of shelter.

Max_Killjoy
2017-02-10, 01:57 PM
Actually, descriptions of the Underdark include massive, wide-open ecosystems, in addition to the claustrophobic tunnels. So there could be a subterranean outback; a strange race of underground women who dress in luminescent fungi; roving bands of raiders who attack and loot passers-by; a cavernous ceiling miles above that creaks and groans like the sounds of a storm; and worst of all, you've gone from the cramped tunnels to an area almost completely devoid of shelter.

Underdark Mad Max?

2D8HP
2017-02-10, 02:45 PM
Underdark Mad Max?

Exactly!


....Make the Villians "Australians". Not real Australians of course (not that much fun) but "Australians" as suggested by Mad Max and Monty Python.

That will.make your friend smile (well maybe not, but it would make me smile). G'day!

Red Fel
2017-02-10, 02:58 PM
Underdark Mad Max?

... I never knew I needed this. Also, re-read what I wrote with the aforementioned Men at Work song in mind.

Max_Killjoy
2017-02-10, 03:09 PM
... I never knew I needed this. Also, re-read what I wrote with the aforementioned Men at Work song in mind.

Those Drow BDSM-looking outfits with all the leather and random plates and spiky bits... charging across the Underoutdarkback on some sort of shaggy ornery beasts of burden or chariots pulled by such covered in chunky ridiculous armor... it's really starting to come together.

Stealth Marmot
2017-02-12, 02:17 AM
I am starting to reconsider putting the Drow into my world now, along with the Underdark being the Mad Max style of no man's land with overly ceremonial warriors stirred up into a frenzy, covered in fetishes and suicidally committed to their cult leaders.

And of course there would be didgeridoos.

This is shaping up to be the best thing to happen to the Drow ever.

Segev
2017-02-12, 03:44 PM
no man's land with overly ceremonial warriors stirred up into a frenzy, covered in fetishes and suicidally committed to their cult leaders.Every word of this fits the drow, one way or another.


And of course there would be didgeridoos.

This is shaping up to be the best thing to happen to the Drow ever.So let it be written, so let it be done.

2D8HP
2017-02-12, 04:48 PM
Drow?

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/roadwarrior/images/a/a2/Imperial_guards.jpg/revision/latest/thumbnail-down/width/1157/height/764?cb=20160713090823

oudeis
2017-02-12, 05:23 PM
Didn't Immortan Joe have white hair?


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c5/29/5d/c5295ddc125f7b138e7b4250fd35cb73.gif


Maybe there is something to this Madness after all...



(did you see what I did there?)

GungHo
2017-02-13, 11:53 AM
Underdark Mad Max?

Sverfneblin riding on the back of an iron-helmeted orog.

2D8HP
2017-02-13, 01:26 PM
Sverfneblin riding on the back of an iron-helmeted orog.

Who runs Bartertown?