Druids - Moon or Land

[Armyman2287]

Hey everyone,

So recently I've been debating on choosing either Circle of the Moon or Circle of the Land. Transforming into beasts seems extremely useful, but at the same time so does expanding the number of spells I have prepared.

Any opinions on which is better?

Thanks,
Conner

[Foxhound438]

I've in the past been very harsh on moon druids since for most of a game you have to give up on casting spells while in beast form. I still stand by the notion that that's probably not the best thing for a caster to be doing, but alas, it's not the end of the world.

Land druid also gets some short rest spell recovery as well, so unless your group never uses short rests you can get a bit more mileage out of your character. That's probably the biggest selling point to me.

[xyianth]

Both are viable, but which one is better will depend on a number of factors:

How often do you fight between short rests? Wild shapes refresh after a short rest, so if you fight more than twice between short rests you won't always have wild shape for combat use.
How do you learn wild shape forms? Some DMs require you to encounter a creature before you can wild shape into one.
Are you playing with feats allowed? Resilient(Constitution) and War Caster are 5e's required druid feats, but they matter far more for the moon druid than the land druid.
Are you playing with multiclassing allowed? A single level dip into monk is priceless for fixing wild shape's AC.
Are you expected to be the party scout? You only have a limited number of wild shapes, so if you need non-combat forms for scouting it is better to not rely on wild shape in combat.

In general, land druids are full casters with an extra set of useful spells derived from their terrain of choice. Moon druids are full casters with a limited but scaling form of the polymorph spell as their extra spells. I'd personally say that single-classed characters without feats are better off going land druid. If you can use feats and multiclassing though, moon druid can be very powerful throughout the game.

[Sigreid]

They're both solid. The only real question is do you want to be a nature oriented spell caster with a little shape shifting on the side or do you want to be a creature of the wild that is mostly about claw and fang, with spellcasting abilities. I don't consider one better than the other.

[JumboWheat01]

I'm always more fond of Land Druids, though that's because I prefer making caster-focused druids, whether in other D&D games or things like World of Warcraft. So my opinion is a bit skewed in that department.

Both are perfectly fine, though, so it really is a matter of choice.

[BW022]

Either are fine.

Moon druids are more powerful in combat at lower-levels. A 34hp brown bear at 2nd-level is extremely powerful. Having to fight your way through that twice per rest is extremely powerful. After about 5th or 6th-level, that tactic becomes dramatically less powerful when facing monsters which can take you out in one round. You increasingly have to rely on buff, spell slots to heal yourself, or simply saying in your normal form and using spells. After about 6th, few animal forms can really keep up with creatures you will be dealing with.

Land druids have more spells and more spell slots. Wildshape for them tends to be non-combat uses -- spying, faster movement, hiding/stealth, etc. Useful, but typically not in combat. With low AC and limits low-level offensive spells... I find land druids harder to keep alive at low-levels. However, around 6th or so, they start outshining moon druids and by 10th or so its fairly noticeable.

However, either really depends upon your style.

[Ogre Mage]

In terms of power, the zenith for the moon druid is level 2 and they remain extremely powerful -- perhaps the most powerful character class -- for levels 2-4. The ability to be a tank, scout or full spellcaster (while not wildshaped) offers strong versatility. But they cannot cast while in wildshape until 18th level -- a crucial difference from 3.5e.

Once you hit Tier 2 (levels 5-10), the land druid starts to catch up and surpass at times. The land druid has a smoother power progression while the moon druid has a gigantic leap at level 2 and a pretty significant one at level 10 followed by long periods of leveling off. The land druid is more specialized as a caster and given that it is less likely to be in melee and in animal form which cannot speak, probably the better summoner. Some of the land type bonus spells are better than others. Both underdark and grassland are strong choices, while forest looks poor.

The impression that the mood druid is much stronger is IMO based on its dominance at level 2-4, the tier at which a lot of D&D is played. But in the long run I think the spell power of the land druid is a better bet. If you are uncertain what other people will be playing, the moon druid is more versatile.

[hymer]

Smart stuff has been said, and I agree particularly with Ogre Mage. That's spot on.

One factor I'd mention, which I haven't seen in this thread, is party composition. Are you the only (full) caster in the party? That points to land druid, so you can better cover the stuff that's left uncovered; emergency healing, magic detection and elimination, etc. Are you on the other hand in a party of bards, clerics and wizards? Moon druid becomes more attractive, as the party loses a smaller percentage of their spellcasting cover when you're unable to cast.

[Dr. Cliché]

Obviously this is subjective, but I just find Moon Druids more fun than Land ones.

I think it's because they don't really seem to trade that much (compared with Land Druids) in order to gain much more flexibility and combat ability with their Wild Shape.

Sure, Land Druids get extra spells, but I feel this is far from necessary. Whilst a few of the off-list ones are nice, the rest are typically ones I'd either avoid or take anyway. And I've never found myself particularly desperate for extra druid spells in general. Many seem of dubious usefulness to begin with, and I can change them daily anyway.

Natural Recovery is good, but I prefer the longevity of improved Wild Shape (which recovers 2 uses each short rest, compared to the 1/day use of Natural Recovery).

My point is, Moon Druids are still full casters. But, unlike Land Druids, they also have both vastly more flexibility with their Wild Shape and vastly more combat ability.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Moon Druids are necessarily better than Land Druids - I just find them much more interesting. I prefer the extra flexibility and focus on transformation to improving their spellcasting ability.

[Captain Panda]

If you are looking for fun, play the one that sounds more appealing to you and your character. From a raw power perspective, there's no contest. Moon druid just wins, every time. At 2 it borders on broken, and even when you get higher and things level off a bit, you're still a full caster with a reasonable strong defensive option to fall back on. It gives you a very powerful resource to use twice per short rest, and you're still a full caster who can summon in swarms of nasty things to eat your enemies. All around, druids rock.

[Dalebert]

I have one of each. They both have their benefits. I feel like in terms of raw power, the moon druid will will out, especially so in tier 1 and then again in tier 4. Being able to cast while wild-shaped and then OMG-this-is-insane having unlimited wildshapes at lvl 20 means the level cap is exponentially better for moon druids. Seems like a horrible design decision.

In actual play though, there are some serious disappointments. Most of your career will not be tier 1 or 4 but rather 2 and 3. I find that I tend to be conservative with my wildshapes as a moon druid, wanting to save them for combats. My land druid has lots of great spells with wildshaping feeling like icing, this thing that recharges on a short rest that I can use for all kinds of utility like scouting in the dark, getting into small spaces or to place I couldn't otherwise easily reach. In tier 2, a land druid can summon any of the things a moon druid turns into AND also stick around to cast spells. Of course a moon druid could summon something AND wildshape but not cast any more spells and they'd not be able to command their animals while an animal themselves if they wanted them to do anything more tactically complicated than just attack enemies. Someone on this forum has a funny sig, something like "A druid can be a bear, riding a bear, summoning bears" and there's some truth to that.

So if you're an obsessive min-maxxer who makes every build choice on the basis of what will make you the most effective in every way, you may need to go moon. If you make any choices based on flavor or fun, you will sometimes find land druid to be a better choice.

[SharkForce]

i disagree that moon druids are the obvious powerful choice. they're powerful only at certain levels. the rest of the time, they get a slightly higher-damage cantrip (which requires them to be in melee range, but at least gives them extra HP to soak damage with), for the most part. not exactly the stuff dreams are made of. certainly, they sound a lot more awesome, and if you ever do make it to level 20, they get completely ridiculous, but everything from 5-19 i think the moon druid is weaker. it might *look* stronger to some, and it certainly isn't so far behind as to be unplayable, but the moment you hit level 5 most warriors will be outpacing your melee forms by a significant amount, and your ability to use actual spells will add far more value than your ability to hit things for mediocre amounts of damage.

there are possible exceptions, but for the most part it is better to be a druid that has the option of turning into an animal than it is to be an animal (or elemental) with some extra proficiencies.

[Giant2005]

Moon Druids are far superior at levels 1-4 and at level 20. Land Druids are marginally superior during every other level.
If you expect you will be spending a little more time at levels 1-4 (or 20), then the Moon Druid is stronger. If you expect you will be spending a lot more time between levels 5-19, then the Land Druid is stronger.

[SharkForce]

Moon Druids are far superior at levels 1-4 and at level 20. Land Druids are marginally superior during every other level.
If you expect you will be spending a little more time at levels 1-4 (or 20), then the Moon Druid is stronger. If you expect you will be spending a lot more time between levels 5-19, then the Land Druid is stronger.

hmmm.... i think the type of land druid actually can make a pretty big impact. with some of the terrain options, you might be only marginally superior at certain levels. an additional number of spells (potentially up to 8) is potentially a relatively minor bonus if you were already going to prepare most or all of what you needed anyways, but with the right spells, it can be a big deal.

or, more specifically... underdark land druids are pretty strong in that department. web, stinking cloud, and greater invisibility are quite an impressive bonus at their respective spell levels.

then you factor in getting half your druid level in spell slot levels recovered... that can be a lot of entangle, faerie fire, heat metal, hold person, lesser restoration, pass without trace, call lightning, conjure animals, etc, and because of how 5e works those spells don't become useless once you get to higher levels (i mean, obviously being able to shapechange twice or something like that would be more impressive, but having free reign to spam your lower level spells isn't exactly awful either).

at level 10, immunity to poison is a fairly big deal in many situations. not just for ignoring substantial amounts of damage (especially powerful if you're fighting, say, a green dragon) a number of status effects stop working on targets that are immune to poison (and there will likely be a time or two where immunity to disease means something i suppose). immunity to charm and fear effects from elementals and fey, well, it's not useless, but i wouldn't argue it's typically an awesome ability (would be much better if it was fey and fiends or fey and aberrations, but oh well, it's something i guess... the main prize is really the poison immunity).

i'll grant the level 14 ability is usually going to be pretty forgettable. literally. as in, if it ever comes up, you probably won't remember that the ability even exists.

but seriously, even at level 16 or something, 8 extra spell levels of spells can be stretched a *really* long way with judicious use. that's a whole lot of entangle spam :P

[Giant2005]

hmmm.... i think the type of land druid actually can make a pretty big impact. with some of the terrain options, you might be only marginally superior at certain levels. an additional number of spells (potentially up to 8) is potentially a relatively minor bonus if you were already going to prepare most or all of what you needed anyways, but with the right spells, it can be a big deal.

or, more specifically... underdark land druids are pretty strong in that department. web, stinking cloud, and greater invisibility are quite an impressive bonus at their respective spell levels.

then you factor in getting half your druid level in spell slot levels recovered... that can be a lot of entangle, faerie fire, heat metal, hold person, lesser restoration, pass without trace, call lightning, conjure animals, etc, and because of how 5e works those spells don't become useless once you get to higher levels (i mean, obviously being able to shapechange twice or something like that would be more impressive, but having free reign to spam your lower level spells isn't exactly awful either).

at level 10, immunity to poison is a fairly big deal in many situations. not just for ignoring substantial amounts of damage (especially powerful if you're fighting, say, a green dragon) a number of status effects stop working on targets that are immune to poison (and there will likely be a time or two where immunity to disease means something i suppose). immunity to charm and fear effects from elementals and fey, well, it's not useless, but i wouldn't argue it's typically an awesome ability (would be much better if it was fey and fiends or fey and aberrations, but oh well, it's something i guess... the main prize is really the poison immunity).

i'll grant the level 14 ability is usually going to be pretty forgettable. literally. as in, if it ever comes up, you probably won't remember that the ability even exists.

but seriously, even at level 16 or something, 8 extra spell levels of spells can be stretched a *really* long way with judicious use. that's a whole lot of entangle spam :P

Yeah, it is mostly the spell recovery thing that gives them an advantage during those levels - although some of the land druids get some really useful spells too.
Still, I'm not even really all that sure that is what I was even talking about. Land Druids bring some positives to the table - whether you consider them to be great positives or minor positives doesn't really matter. They exist and that is enough to give them a lead over Moon Druids (except during those levels when Moon Druids are exceptionally powerful).
The thing about Wildshape is that outside of those levels where Moon Druids dominate, it is basically little more than a utility ability. That is true for Moon Druids and Land Druids both, but with Moon Druids it becomes more of a trap option.
Outside of those levels where Wildshape is legitimately awesome, both Moon and Land Druids are better off casting spells. A Moon Druid that uses his Wildshape in combat doesn't really bring anything to the table - his damage is sub-par, he can't provide any real support. Wildshaping in combat during those levels is basically using a control ability against yourself - it pretty much takes you right out of the fight and lowers the odds of your team securing a victory.
During those levels (5-19), Moon Druid just doesn't really bring anything to the table (unless it multiclasses heavily and makes a build which is basically useless outside of Wildshape). During those levels Wildshaping in combat is a bad idea and the utility aspects are secured by the base Druid class that Land Druids have access to anyway.

[Theodoxus]

My experience DMing druids - Moon tends to suck - exactly because of the reasons stated. A newer player will see things like "OMG, Moon Druid, level 2 - BROKEN!!!" and so go that route, turn into a bear, thinking they'll tank all the things (I guess they play WoW) and then promptly get wtfpwn'd and they're not a bear anymore. Worse, when they go to attack and keep missing...

Moon druids, especially, are not a beginners class. There's a lot of micromanagement involved in shapeshifting. There's a need to understand what you're fighting, what form is best against those foes, what your party members are contributing, how that all balances out. Heck, my best friend just started playing a druid for the first time - and he's been playing D&D since the 80s, and 5E since it came out. When we hit 2nd level, he asked my advice on Land or Moon - I laid out the pros and cons, including the few times I've ran other druids and their choices and outcomes. He picked Land with no qualms whatsoever.

So, yeah, YMMV, but I caution against just reading forum posts about how amazing or broken something is (anything, really) and have expectations of pulling off the same, especially if you lack system mastery.

[MrStabby]

I used to think the moon druid was awesome and had no time for the land druid. Then I played a land druid and it did change my mind somewhat.

The main points are covered: levels 5 to 19 the land druid is better
At the other levels the moon druid is obscenely overpowered

Some of the changes are not just level dependant though but also DM dependant. My first DM in 5th was very liberal regarding taking rests, whenever the party ran low on spell slots we took a rest so the ability to recover spells was weakened whereas the ability to turn into something with a lot of HP as a bonus action, so you could still use all your most powerful spells and ignore the weaker ones, was very useful.

In campaigns where you have to watch your resource usage a little more land druid gets a big boost.

I do think that there is a lot more on offer from the Circle spells than some people realise though. Forest I think is weak, likewise mountain but the others have a lot to offer.

Arctic gives you sleet storm, slow which are great spells - very importantly they are also spells that allow you do do new things - not just use other spells to do the same type of thing you could do. Spike growth and hold person are also good spells that free up preparation slots for other spells.

Coast gives you two new spells straight off, mirror image and misty step. Mirror image is a nice survivability boost at every level. At low levels it is good but as you get to higher levels where enemies get more movement options like teleportation and fly speeds and where casters are easier to attack it just becomes even better. Misty step is also a great spell, less so when you get it but in the later game it shines when a level 2 spell slot isn't a huge cost but getting out of a fire filled forcecage is a big deal. Waterbreathing is a nice spell to have to hand but you can have it anyway.

Desert gets blur and silence. Blur is a good spell but less good on a caster that has good uses for concentration - unless you are using a druid dip for a martial class. Silence is golden. It lets you shut down a lot of caster encounters, at least in a confined space.

Grassland has been covered somewhat so I wont repeat.

Swamp - you get darkness, even without warlock this is pretty good. Stinking cloud - a superb control spell.

Underdark - pretty similar to swamp as a list. You get web (a great spell, but less useful to a druid who has other spells that do similar) instead of darkness and you get greater invisibility instead of freedom of movement - a good spell but better cast on others than the druid.


Roughly speaking I expect to get an equivalent of 2 extra spells prepared and two new spells from the circle feature. If you use these well it is a huge boost.