PDA

View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next [Class] The Immortal! (PEACH)



RabanoDOOM
2017-02-10, 12:44 AM
Another homebrew class! How about that? Since The Gambler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?512859-Class-The-Gambler!-(PEACH)) went over fairly well, (at least better than I'd expected) I figured I might try my hand at making another class, and after about a week of work and fine tuning, I'm ready to present it. Like the gambler, I am well aware that this class could be absolutely broken in many, MANY areas, I just don't know where, and it would be incredibly awesome of you if you could help me find that out with your critiques! So, without further ado...The Immortal.

The Immortal


Level
Proficiency Bonus
Features


1st
+2
Immortality, Fortitude, Dead March


2nd
+2
Juggernaut


3rd
+2
Immortality Feature


4th
+2
Ability Score Improvement


5th
+3
Extra Attack


6th
+3
Ability Score Improvement


7th
+3
Immortality Feature


8th
+3
Ability Score Improvement


9th
+4
Eye For An Eye


10th
+4
Immortality Feature


11th
+4
Semi-Mortal


12th
+4
Ability Score Improvement


13th
+5
Meat Shield


14th
+5
Lodge, Bloodletter


15th
+5
Immortality Feature


16th
+5
Ability Score Improvement


17th
+6
Pincushion, Pseudomortal


18th
+6
Immortality Feature


19th
+6
Ability Score Improvement


20th
+6
True Immortality



CLASS FEATURES
As an Immortal, you gain the following class features.

HIT POINTS
Hit Dice: d12
Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + constitution modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d12 (or 7) + constitution modifier

PROFICIENCIES
Armor: No Armors, Shields
Weapons: Simple, Martial Melee Weapons
Tools: One Artisan's Tool or One Vehicle type.

Saving Throws: Strength, Constitution
Skills: Select 2 from Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, History, Insight, Intimidation, and Perception

EQUIPMENT
You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:


(a) a greatsword (b) a longsword and shield or (c) any martial melee weapon
(a) a dungeoneer's pack or (b) an explorer's pack.
Any simple weapon.

Immortality
You've spent the better half of your life studying into how to get an infinite number of those better halves. At Level 1, you choose a form of immortality to dedicate yourself to studying. You may choose the Ageless, Undying, or Legendary Immortality Archetypes. These archetypes provide you features at Level 1, Level 3, Level 7, Level 10, Level 15, and Level 18.

Fortitude
At level 1, when you are unarmored, you regenerate a number of HP on your turn every round equal to 1/2 your Immortal level + your Constitution Modifier. (Rounded up) This regeneration does not apply when you are at 0 HP. You may not apply any Unarmored Defense features at the same time as this, and must choose one or the other to keep permanently.

Dead March
At level 1, when the you are at 0 HP, you remain conscious while making your death saves. If you get 3 failures, you are knocked unconscious, and the death save counters reset and start again. If you gets 3 successes, you regain a quarter of your HP. (Rounded up)

Juggernaut
At level 2, when at full HP, you gain resistance against all damage. This resistance is lost when you are below full HP, and regained if you are brought to full HP again. This resistance does not stack with other resistances.

Ability Score Improvement
At level 4, and again at 6th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two Ability Scores of your choice by 1. You canít increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.

Extra Attack
At level 5, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the attack action on your turn.

Eye For An Eye
At level 9, when you take the attack action on your turn, you may sacrifice one of your attacks to enter a retaliatory stance, grant every attack made against you Advantage until your next turn. In return, until your next turn, as a reaction. when and if an attack hits you, you may choose to immediately make an attack action. In addition, Extra Attack also applies to this attack action.

Semi-Mortal
At level 11, you gain Advantage on Death Saves.

Meat Shield
At level 13, when a spell or attack is made against an ally or non-hostile, you may use your reaction to move up to your movement speed to get within 5 feet of that ally or non-hostile and take the spell or attack for them. The spell or attack's target changes to you, and the original target is protected from any effects of the attack or spell. If you are hit with an attack when using this feature, you can use your Eye for an Eye ability for free.

Lodge
At level 14, If a melee weapon attack is successfully made against you, you may use your reaction to attempt to disarm the weapon using a contested athletics check. You don't need your hands free to make this disarm attempt, and may leave the weapon lodged in your body with no consequence. Removal of the weapon also deals no damage, and if a foe wants to reacquire a weapon, they will still have to make an opposed athletics check. Additionally, ranged weapon attacks automatically lodge in the immortal, and multiple weapons can be lodged in the immortal at once. Sleeping with a weapon lodged in you will cause a stack of Exhaustion when you awaken. (Though Exhaustion levels gained specifically through this will never surpass Exhaustion Level 3)

Bloodletter
At level 14, if you reach 0 HP via melee attack, the attacker takes the damage dealt by the attack to themselves as well. In addition, any melee attack's damage against you while you're at 0 HP is dealt to the attacker as well.

Pincushion
At level 17, you get a damage reduction bonus of +1 (Max +5) against Piercing, Bludgeoning, and Slashing damage for every weapon or 5 pieces of ammunition lodged in your body.

Pseudomortal
At level 17, you are immune to instant-death effects.

True Immortality
At level 20, you are now incapable of death by any means. When subjected to an effect that would destroy your body, your head will always remain intact, relatively healthy, and magically still capable of regaining consciousness and even speaking. Your body can fully regenerate in 1d4 days, if not prevented from doing so. For example, containing your head in a small space, burying it, or exposing it to constant damage will prevent regeneration.


Ancient Knowledge
At level 1, you may add half your proficiency bonus to all Intelligence based saves and ability checks. Additionally, you cannot die of age, your appearance and physical traits do not change by aging, and if you chose this archetype at character creation, you may add up to 10,000 additional years to your starting age.

I Was There!
At level 3, you gain proficiency in Arcana, Nature, Religion, and History, and gain expertise in two of those skills. Additionally, you may choose one of those two skills you've now gained expertise in. You gain advantage in all skill checks involving that one chosen skill.

Old Foes
At level 7, as a standard action, you may make either an Arcana, Nature, Religion, or History check against a single enemy, depending on what type of creature they are. (The DC for this check is 10 + 1/2 their Challenge Rating) If you succeed, you add your Intelligence modifier to damage dealt against all enemies of that specific type. (For example, if you used this against an orcish Eye of Gruumsh, you wouldn't get this bonus against all of orc kind, just all orcish Eyes of Gruumsh.) If you fail, you may not use Old Foes against enemies of that specific type again.

Worldly Wisdom
At level 10, you can now speak and write in all Standard languages. Additionally, if you know some of those languages already, excluding Common, you may learn 1 Exotic Language. (Knowing multiple of those languages does not grant multiple exotic languages)

Eternal
At level 15, upon entering a dungeon, city, or new area, you may roll a d20 to remember if you've been in that dungeon, city, or new area before. On a roll of 15 or higher, you may remember the basic map layout of the dungeon. On a natural 20, you may also remember the placement of a number of the dungeon's secrets, dangers, forgotten lore, hidden passages, traps, etc. (How much of this is remembered is left to the DM's discretion)

Archaic Arcanum
At level 18, You may add your Intelligence modifier to your AC. Additionally, you ignore all class, race, and level requirements on the use of Magic Items.

Hollow
At level 1, you may be treated as Undead whenever being treated as such is beneficial to you, and are immune to any effects that specifically target your soul.

Pseudolich
At level 3, you gain resistance to Necrotic damage and immunity to Poison, as well as immunity to the Charmed and Poisoned conditions. Additionally, you cannot die of old age.

Zombieman
At level 7, you gain resistance to self-inflicted damage, and if a limb or part of your body is detached, (excluding your head) you may use a standard action to reattach it. Additionally, when a limb or part of your body is detached, it retains functionality and you may continue controlling that limb or part of your body as a bonus action while it's detached for a number of hours equal to your constitution modifier. (Min. 1) This limb has HP equal to 1/4 of your own, and carries all the same immunities, resistances, vulnerabilities, damage reduction, and health regeneration that you do. Damage against this limb is not taken to your hit points. If a limb is killed, or is not reattached to your body within 6 hours of detachment, you may regenerate it during a long rest.

Example: Darius the Human Immortal wants to secretly eavesdrop on a conversation between two bandits. Rather than risk sneaking up to them and being seen, he detaches his own hand and one of his ears, and has the hand crawl toward the two bandits with the ear in tow. This allows Darius to eavesdrop more stealthily on their conversation.

Caput Mortuum
At level 10, you can no longer suffer from Exhaustion, and gain immunity to the Frightened and Paralyzed conditions. Additionally, you now have advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects, and you no longer need to eat, sleep, drink, or breathe.

Soul Eat
At level 15, once per short rest, you may attempt to consume the soul of a dead, sleeping, incapacitated, petrified, paralyzed, or otherwise completely helpless creature. This attempt automatically fails if the creature has no soul to begin with, such as with constructs or mindless undead. The creature must make a charisma save with a DC of 8 + Your Proficiency Modifier + Your Constitution Modifier, automatically failing if they're already dead. Upon failure, you successfully consume their soul, instantly and permanently killing that creature.

Voodoo
At level 18, when you inflict damage against yourself, you may choose to ignore any resistances you have to this self-inflicted damage, and may also grant yourself vulnerability to this self-inflicted damage. Additionally, when you inflict damage against yourself, you may inflict half the damage you deal to yourself as psychic damage against either all enemies within 10 feet or one enemy within 30 feet. This damage does not require an attack roll and cannot be saved against.
Story
At level 1, you begin documenting all of your greatest feats, actions and accomplishments into a journal, and do everything in your power to let those actions be known. Your Story may have a number of Accomplishments written in it equal to your Charisma Modifier, each Accomplishment granting a single bonus. You may replace Accomplishments with new ones as they come up. You and the DM may work together to decide what single bonus effect each Accomplishment grants you. (At your DM's discretion, certain massive accomplishments, or accomplishments with very powerful bonus effects, can take up more than one accomplishment space.)

Example: Briggs the Half-Elf Immortal succeeds in raiding a large encampment of goblin bandits named The Butchers, and decapitates their leader. He writes of his journey and lets it be known far and wide that he's done this tremendous task, writing his accomplishment down as "Slayer of Butchers" in his journal. Stories and rumors are told far and wide about Briggs, Slayer of Butchers. He and the DM work together to come up with a bonus effect, and decide the effect of this accomplishment should be advantage on Intimidate rolls against goblinkind and bandits.

Icon
At level 3, you may gain proficiency in two charisma based skills of your choice, as well as proficiency in charisma saves. Additionally, you can cast enthrall a number of times equal to your charisma modifier per long rest.

Glorious Charge
At level 7, once per short rest, as a standard action, you may allow all allies within 60 feet to move a number of feet equal to 5 x Your Charisma Modifier. (Minimum 10 feet) Allies consume their reaction to use this movement option. If an ally moves at least 10 feet in a straight line towards an enemy, they can make one melee attack as part of their reaction. Additionally, you also may make one melee attack if you move at least 10 feet in a straight line towards an enemy on your turn.

Figurehead
At level 10, the power of your reputation grants you uncanny social power. You gain advantage on all charisma based skill checks against Friendly and Indifferent NPCs who know your stories.

Artifact
At level 15, your items begin to develop a slightly magical aura through your legendary actions. Choose two items you own with interesting stories behind them, and work with your DM to decide a single bonus effect that these items have. Choosing a new item to Artifact requires the destruction of one of your current Artifacted items, 200 gold, and three weeks spent spreading legends about the new item. Items that are already magic cannot be Artifacted, and the DM has the power to change the item's bonus effect if the original effect proves to be too powerful.

Example: Morgretta the Dwarven Immortal has two noteworthy items: A Shield that she used to protect a king from a 3 day rain of arrows, and a Battleaxe that she's soaked in the blood of a hundred giants. Upon reaching level 15, she decides to Artifact these two items. She talks with her DM to decide on what sort of bonus effects these items have, and they reach an agreement. The Shield, now the Shield of Morgretta, gives disadvantage against all ammunition-based attacks made against her from her front. The Battleaxe, now the Axe of Morgretta, deals double damage against Giants.

Gilgamesh
At level 18, books, poems, plays, and musicals are written far and wide about your grand feats of legend, and history shall forever know your name. Accomplishments now provide 2 bonus effects instead of 1.

RabanoDOOM
2017-02-12, 01:51 PM
Bizzity bump.

Potato_Priest
2017-02-12, 10:46 PM
My first thought is that the PHB classes generally use second person pronouns, rather than third person. It's not a must-fix issue, but I am curious as to why you departed from that standard.

Why does the regeneration round? It's 2 whole numbers added together.

There is no Move action in 5th edition.

Any feature of significant power, like Eye for an Eye should require the expenditure of a reaction. Otherwise you run into a scenario where a monk hits your immortal 4 times and they make 8 reaction attacks. Ridiculous. I'd ban this class just for that.

I like meat shield, but you should take out the attacks. That ought to function with Eye for an Eye in any case.

Sleeping in Heavy armor has no effect in 5th edition, unless your DM house-rules something.

Take out the resistance to ranged attacks on Pincusion. It's overkill and doesn't make any sense (I'd think that an arrow would be easily able to penetrate a thicket of lodged weapons)

Both the subclasses are way too good, as I am sure others will demonstrate. I wouldn't allow this class in one of my games, though it is less broken than the Punk by a fair ways.

RabanoDOOM
2017-02-13, 01:54 AM
My first thought is that the PHB classes generally use second person pronouns, rather than third person. It's not a must-fix issue, but I am curious as to why you departed from that standard.

It's a literary reflex, my apologies. I've now edited all of the "she's" and "the immortal's" out of the post, I think


Why does the regeneration round? It's 2 whole numbers added together.

The original text had the immortal's regeneration at 1/2 their level + con modifier. This was changed last minute, in light of a lack of armor options in a more strength-centric class with no unarmored defense. (A d12 can only get you so far.) I guess my word choice didn't change along with it. Fixed it. Side note, I may actually change the regeneration back to how it was originally written, if some key features prove too overpowered when combined with that high of an amount of regeneration.


There is no Move action in 5th edition.

My 3.5 is showing, sorry. Fixed. (I think.)


Any feature of significant power, like Eye for an Eye should require the expenditure of a reaction. Otherwise you run into a scenario where a monk hits your immortal 4 times and they make 8 reaction attacks. Ridiculous. I'd ban this class just for that.

I'd written it that way so as to give it some sort of compatibility with the Helheimian's Friendly Fire. The immortal's friends could hit him and in return he could get some extra damage. I hadn't considered the double-attack scaling, actually, thanks for bringing that up. I made Eye for an Eye a reaction now.

Though with a standard action being spent preparing it, it doesn't really make sense anymore to do it, all you'd be doing now is just giving attacks advantage against you in return for a single counterattack, when you could've just made an attack. I think it needs a bit more incentive besides the Meat Shield compatibility you describe later, (thanks for that by the way) maybe use it as a bonus action or have reduced damage. (Actually this class already has too much reduced-damage, never mind) Again, i'll wait to see how other things balance out.


I like meat shield, but you should take out the attacks. That ought to function with Eye for an Eye in any case.

Didn't think about Eye for an Eye when writing, thanks! :smallsmile: Fixed.


Sleeping in Heavy armor has no effect in 5th edition, unless your DM house-rules something.

Once again, my 3.5 is showing. I've now changed it to Exhaustion levels. Entertaining as the thought may be, I can't imagine sleeping with a thicket of blades bursting from your chest would be all that comfortable.


Take out the resistance to ranged attacks on Pincusion. It's overkill and doesn't make any sense (I'd think that an arrow would be easily able to penetrate a thicket of lodged weapons)

Fixed.


Both the subclasses are way too good, as I am sure others will demonstrate. I wouldn't allow this class in one of my games, though it is less broken than the Punk by a fair ways.

...Yeah, the punk's probably way beyond salvageable at this point. I imagine if someone were to balance a multi-turned squishy rush-down class, it'd probably be somebody much more capable than I. :smalleek:

I made a few minor edits to the subclasses, though. I shortened the Valhallan's cleanse range to 15 feet and shortened the rounds on the infliction to just 1d2 rounds, and I made the Helheimian's resistances exclusively against weapon attacks. I would like to balance the subclasses while still keeping their design philosophies and unique attributes intact, however.

The Valhallan's made as sort of an anti-magic, anti-status-effect subclass, with high saves and a punishing mechanic against attempted status conditions, so that the best way to take it down would be direct, concentrated damage. The Helheimian is made purely as a big, brute war sponge, soaking up weapon attacks like nobody's business but susceptible to magic and status effects, basically an opposite to The Valhallan. That's why they're called the Valhallan and the Helheimian. The Valhallan is best killed honorably, in battle, while The Helheimian is best killed dishonorably, with magic, poisons, trickery, stuff like that. How much of that design I can salvage while still keeping balance is gonna be the big question here.

With that said, thank you very much for your critique, it was super helpful! :smallbiggrin:

Potato_Priest
2017-02-13, 02:04 AM
I'd written it that way so as to give it some sort of compatibility with the Helheimian's Friendly Fire. The immortal's friends could hit him and in return he could get some extra damage. I hadn't considered the double-attack scaling, actually, thanks for bringing that up. I made Eye for an Eye a reaction now.

Though with a standard action being spent preparing it, it doesn't really make sense anymore to do it, all you'd be doing now is just giving attacks advantage against you in return for a single counterattack, when you could've just made an attack. I think it needs a bit more incentive besides the Meat Shield compatibility you describe later, (thanks for that by the way) maybe use it as a bonus action or have reduced damage. (Actually this class already has too much reduced-damage, never mind) Again, i'll wait to see how other things balance out.


Perhaps, rather than sacrificing your whole action, you could sacrifice one attack(since you have two at this point due to extra attack) That'd provide plenty of incentive (1 extra attack in the long run), but there would still be a risk of losing out because the enemy chose not to hit you. You could phrase the activation of the ability like this:

When you take the attack action on your turn, you may sacrifice one of your attacks to enter a retaliatory stance...

The way things have been changed, meat shield doesn't work in conjunction with eye for an eye. Perhaps it should be phrased like this:

At level 13, when a spell or attack is made against an ally or non-hostile, you may use your reaction to move up to your movement speed to get within 5 feet of that ally or non-hostile and take the spell or attack for them. The spell or attack's target changes to you, and the original target is protected from any effects of the attack or spell. If you are hit with an attack when using this feature and you used your Eye for an Eye ability on your previous turn, you can use the reaction granted by that feature for free.

RabanoDOOM
2017-02-13, 02:14 AM
Perhaps, rather than sacrificing your whole action, you could sacrifice one attack(since you have two at this point due to extra attack) That'd provide plenty of incentive (1 extra attack in the long run), but there would still be a risk of losing out because the enemy chose not to hit you. You could phrase the activation of the ability like this:

When you take the attack action on your turn, you may sacrifice one of your attacks to enter a retaliatory stance...

The way things have been changed, meat shield doesn't work in conjunction with eye for an eye. Perhaps it should be phrased like this:

At level 13, when a spell or attack is made against an ally or non-hostile, you may use your reaction to move up to your movement speed to get within 5 feet of that ally or non-hostile and take the spell or attack for them. The spell or attack's target changes to you, and the original target is protected from any effects of the attack or spell. If you are hit with an attack when using this feature and you used your Eye for an Eye ability on your previous turn, you can use the reaction granted by that feature for free.

That's...hey, that's actually really clever. Thank you! :smallbiggrin: Edited that in.

Belac93
2017-02-13, 02:17 AM
The class itself is actually decent. It seems a little too crazy at first, but doesn't really have any offensive abilities.

The problem is multiclassing. Imagine a spellcaster who won't want to start as one of these. For a wizard, being 1 spell level behind is a small price to pay for Constitution save proficiency, an extra 13 hit points over what they would usually have (and this number increases by 2 every level), regenerating up to 6 hit points per round, staying alive while making death saves, getting an extra chance if you would normally die, resistance to the first hit on any combat, and immunity to a condition +2 resistances. Add in an extra level if you're going really deep to gain your choice of spell resistance or physical damage resistance.

And what do you lose? You're casting spell for 8d6 damage instead of 10d6.

Hell, this class is the perfect choice for any Strength Bladelock. No armour doesn't make much of a difference when you can cast mage armour at-will.

So, I want to like this class, I really do. But the early levels really need toning down. A lot. Like, remove the tough feat definitely.

RabanoDOOM
2017-02-13, 03:12 AM
The class itself is actually decent. It seems a little too crazy at first, but doesn't really have any offensive abilities.

The problem is multiclassing. Imagine a spellcaster who won't want to start as one of these. For a wizard, being 1 spell level behind is a small price to pay for Constitution save proficiency, an extra 13 hit points over what they would usually have (and this number increases by 2 every level), regenerating up to 6 hit points per round, staying alive while making death saves, getting an extra chance if you would normally die, resistance to the first hit on any combat, and immunity to a condition +2 resistances. Add in an extra level if you're going really deep to gain your choice of spell resistance or physical damage resistance.

And what do you lose? You're casting spell for 8d6 damage instead of 10d6.

Hell, this class is the perfect choice for any Strength Bladelock. No armour doesn't make much of a difference when you can cast mage armour at-will.

So, I want to like this class, I really do. But the early levels really need toning down. A lot. Like, remove the tough feat definitely.

How about...removing the tough feat, sure. Then maybe weakening the effect of the regeneration, maybe to 1/2 level + 1/2 con mod, or 1/2 level + con mod? At least, until about 5th level, where it doubles up to the standard level + con mod. (It could move to an even later level if need be)

Multiclassing to the immortal should require 13 Strength and 13 Constitution, which could hold back wizards from meeting it early-game, since they'd be simultaneously also juggling dexterity for AC and wisdom for general utility. I'm actually in favor of making the constitution requirement a 15 or even a 17, instead of a 13, given the immortal's flavor, but any required attribute above a 13 has yet to make it into the official books, so that'd be a bit much.

I should note, having Juggernaut on would kinda just provide the same effect that having False life or Shield prepared would have, negating some of the damage of the first attack you take. Hell, the abjurer's ward also does the same thing. So, spending a level specifically to get Juggernaut when you could get a spell slot for Shield wouldn't make sense. False life will likely absorb more damage than Juggernaut will for that first hit, unless you're being jumped by a mid-level rogue or something, and since the wizard doesn't have much if any access to natural healing, there wouldn't be that much advantage over a normal immortal of the same character level. As for shield, it does have nice synergy with the regeneration, but shield has nice synergy with a LOT of stuff, and early game you'd be holding up your now-lower-leveled spell slots with mage armor, since the immortal doesn't grant armor proficiency, and one or more shields, to make effective use of fortitude and juggernaut.

Which means, now you're a very very hard to kill wizard with weirdly high strength, stunted spell growth, slots being taken up by mage armor, shield, false life, etc., health regeneration that won't scale with your level, martial melee weapon proficiencies you won't do that much with, an immunity that can be gotten through other means, and two resistances, of which only one will really be very useful. (Con save's got Poison dealt with fairly nicely and I don't know how much Radiant you're really running into as a good-aligned wizard, or Necrotic with evil) Sure, later on you'll be a major time force to be reckoned with, but you're a wizard, that was always going to happen. You're just swapping power and utility for more tankiness, which is nice as a wizard, but there's only so much a wizard can achieve just from being bulky.

Looking at the rest of it...actually, yeah, there is actually a ton of bladelock synergy here. I guess flavor-wise that kinda makes sense, a martial version of a class that makes demon pacts for power alongside a martial class trying to live forever. But I do agree, that synergy might be a bit too powerful, especially early on. I'll have to take a closer look at how everything there could work.

tl;dr I get what you're putting down, and I'm strongly considering working on all of it, but I'll have to learn a bit more about how everything synergizes in that regard before I can begin reworking major things around multiclassing.

Thanks for the critique, it was really helpful! :smallsmile:

Potato_Priest
2017-02-13, 10:25 AM
If I were to let a player use this in one of my games, I'd straight up ban multiclassing. The way the class is set up now, regeneration is kind of an essential feature, so it should be awarded early but it's good enough that everyone else would dip for it. The same goes for armor and rage. Keep in mind that multiclassing is an optional rule, and the DM can allow it or not on a case-by-case basis.

Potato_Priest
2017-02-13, 10:31 AM
In terms of subclasses:

I think a complete rework would be good. Some of the subclass features are ridiculous, others are useless, like friendly fire. I think that the subclasses should be based around the ways that the immortal seeks immortality. Here are some examples:

1. Seeking immortality in the fountain of youth/insert powerful artifact here. These immortals should have knowledge and exploration based abilities and a way to apply their intelligence modifier in combat.

2. Seeking to become a free-willed undead. This one is pretty self explanatory, but the features they get should be able to build a vampire just as easily as a death knight.

3. Seeking immortality through legend. Sort of like every skald ever, except that this guy actually gets an increase in lifespan when more people know about them. These immortals should have social interaction based abilities and a way to use their charisma modifier in combat.

RabanoDOOM
2017-02-18, 11:12 PM
Update: Changed the archetypes to the Ageless, Undying, and Legendary Immortality Archetypes. Tell me what you think of them! :smallbiggrin:

Potato_Priest
2017-02-19, 02:48 AM
Update: Changed the archetypes to the Ageless, Undying, and Legendary Immortality Archetypes. Tell me what you think of them! :smallbiggrin:

I like them. I think you did a good job giving them both flavorful and useful features.

Some of my favorites:
I LOVE painwave. I think that is should be specified to deal psychic damage, and I'd take out the enemies' saving throw. This is a level 18 ability, it's allowed to be awesome.

Zombieman is super cool in that it doesn't provide direct combat benefits, but instead provides some utility. You should specify what happens if a separated body part is killed.

Undead immortals should explicitly be protected from aging at some point in their level progression.

I like old Foes. It's simple, requires a sacrifice (an action, potentially for no benefit) and applies the intelligence modifier in combat. My one suggestion might be that the DC shouldn't have a cap. I think DCs over 20 for solars and tarrasques and whatnot are fair game. Keep in mind that this type of immortal has expertise and possibly advantage on the check.

Common is a default language, so everyone who gets worldly wisdom will learn an exotic one. Not sure if this was intended or not.


Seems like glorious charge is particularly lame. Here's what I'd do to change it:
Allies move a number of feet equal to 5x your Charisma modifier, with a minimum of 10 feet.
Allies consume their reaction to use this movement option.
If a creature moves at least 10 feet in a straight line towards an enemy, they can make one melee attack as part of their reaction.
You also may make one melee attack if you move at least 10 feet in a straight line towards an enemy on your turn.
Limit it to 1/short rest

This way, the immortal can lead a charge where their allies actually surge forward and enter battle.


You seem to be getting much better at this homebrewing stuff. Every thing I've seen you put out has been better than the last.

Scaileanna
2017-02-19, 06:41 AM
well love the new archetypes very flavorful (though i think the undead one should be able to remove their head too or be more lich like, phylactery-esque thing specifically, that's just my personal love of necromantic things though) i think if i can get a new game going with my friends i'll make a npc ageless immortal they find just so i can have him say "TEN THOUSAND YEEEEAAAARRRSSSSS.....will give you such a creek in the neck"

Amnoriath
2017-02-19, 06:55 PM
1. Right off the bat Fortitude sets this up to make short rests irrelevant. No class feature gives straight up regeneration because it makes hit die irrelevant and you automatically the toughest one in the group. In order to give you an idea of how overpowered this is at most Survivor can give 10 hp per round up to half their hit points at 18th level. Yours in its least effective at that point is 17 always. The qualifier of Unarmored Defense is incredibly easy to dodge. Either A you turn it off for battle still making what I said true, B be a Mountain Dwarf+feat, or multi-class for armor proficiencies(Cleric subclasses give heavy armor proficiency).
2. I understand this suppose to be a Immortal but a level 1 feature that says the player never has to make another character period unless the DM specifically makes extraordinary rules or circumstances to kill your character is ridiculous. Immortality need not mean you will always be just as strong as a character no matter what.
3. Juggernaut and Bloodletter are redundant, but the features themselves are alright balance wise.
4. Meat Shield+Eye for an Eye= Multiple Attack actions outside your turn as you can use Eye for an Eye on those Attack actions outside your turn. It is about as bad as the Tunnel Fighter+Relentless Avenger trick except it also throws in advantage too.
5. Lodge+Pincushion+Caput Mortuum= 5 DR against anything
6. Archaic Arcanum breaks the 3 attuned item cap completely. If Lodge is used since the limit is only when the DM says it is ridiculous since you don't even have to spend an hour on each one gaining its benefits. Stab, it works. Stab, it works...etc Just get rid of it, period.
7. Finally while sub-classes do a good job in setting a story for respective characters the class itself is just a mechanical nightmare when exploited. You need to work in some kind of flavor in the base class itself whether it be an iconic mechanic or a genuinely useful ribbons that don't require exploiting the fact you don't die.

RabanoDOOM
2017-02-19, 09:37 PM
1. Right off the bat Fortitude sets this up to make short rests irrelevant. No class feature gives straight up regeneration because it makes hit die irrelevant and you automatically the toughest one in the group. In order to give you an idea of how overpowered this is at most Survivor can give 10 hp per round up to half their hit points at 18th level. Yours in its least effective at that point is 17 always. The qualifier of Unarmored Defense is incredibly easy to dodge. Either A you turn it off for battle still making what I said true, B be a Mountain Dwarf+feat, or multi-class for armor proficiencies(Cleric subclasses give heavy armor proficiency).

Personally, I can't quite see what the point would be in going to all that trouble for armor proficiency. If you're doing that, you're not getting regeneration in combat, not to mention having a high AC can actually hurt an immortal's efficacy since a fair portion of their abilities actually benefit from being hit. If you wanted to wear armor and heal up a lot between encounters, you can do that with Durable, a good medicine score, conservative spell use, and/or the right kit. Otherwise you're constantly donning and doffing your armor just to get your regeneration ability between encounters, and good luck doffing it in combat if you're low on HP. But, if it's a problem, I can make the immortal's other class abilities also require it to be unarmored.

It is definitely a very powerful ability with a good deal of controversy surrounding it, which is why I've decided to make the regeneration 1/2 the immortal's level + Constitution now, so that the optimized immortal's max is 15 instead of 25. (Though some monsters have HP regeneration to that extent...eh, whatever) But I just don't see healing to full health between encounters as that massive or gamebreaking of an ability. Very useful, very convenient, and good for preventing clerical migraines, but not really earthshattering. If I'm wrong here, I could make the regeneration combat exclusive, but then Zombieman becomes basically useless. :smalleek:


2. I understand this suppose to be a Immortal but a level 1 feature that says the player never has to make another character period unless the DM specifically makes extraordinary rules or circumstances to kill your character is ridiculous. Immortality need not mean you will always be just as strong as a character no matter what.

If you're talking about Dead March, Dead March is kind of just...basically an upgraded version of Relentless Endurance, or maybe 3.5's Diehard. You stay walking when you'd otherwise be dead, and then being knocked out from THAT state makes you begin dying. (Being hit still gives you automatic failure rolls when you're dying during Dead March, by the way) As for the combination of the two, taking more than, say...15 damage before your turn, that's not really all that outside of the level 1 ballpark, especially when you consider the immortal is a low AC, low mobility melee tank class. Risk is still there, about as much as one can expect playing, say, a high AC fighter or high damage barbarian. But instead of being difficult to hit, or knocking out the enemy before they even have the chance to hit you, you're letting most attackers successfully hit you and not doing all that much damage in return, but minimizing the hits you're taking.


4. Meat Shield+Eye for an Eye= Multiple Attack actions outside your turn as you can use Eye for an Eye on those Attack actions outside your turn. It is about as bad as the Tunnel Fighter+Relentless Avenger trick except it also throws in advantage too.

The synergy's kind of intentional. Keep in mind a few things. You can only do this once between your turns, since it eats up a reaction. It specifies you have to be able to get within 5 feet of that ally with your movement, which means that if they're farther away than you can go, you can't do it whatsoever. Additionally, you have to choose between movement or an attack action, meaning if something ranged or spellcasting is hitting your ally from 40 or 50 feet away, you won't be able to immediately close in for melee combat. Not to mention, if it's a spell with a really nasty effect, unless you're an Undying, you're probably taking that effect.

It's definitely a good, strong ability, but it's also an ability that's reasonable for a damage sponge to have.


Lodge+Pincushion+Caput Mortuum= 5 DR against anything

To be fair, Human + Fighter = 3 DR against most physical damage at level 1, and you get to have extra strength and a really high AC to boot. With that being said though...having the arrows sticking out of your body protect you from flames or the cold is a bit ridiculous. I'll change Pincushion's DR to Piercing, Bludgeoning, and Slashing damage.


6. Archaic Arcanum breaks the 3 attuned item cap completely. If Lodge is used since the limit is only when the DM says it is ridiculous since you don't even have to spend an hour on each one gaining its benefits. Stab, it works. Stab, it works...etc Just get rid of it, period.

As originally written, it was basically the thief's Use Magic Device with the extra bonus of Int to AC. Looking at it now, that's...probably a better idea.


7. Finally while sub-classes do a good job in setting a story for respective characters the class itself is just a mechanical nightmare when exploited. You need to work in some kind of flavor in the base class itself whether it be an iconic mechanic or a genuinely useful ribbons that don't require exploiting the fact you don't die.

Well, not dying is kind of the Immortal's thing. The entire reason a character travels down this road is to attain not dying. The capstone of this class is not dying because the end goal of any Immortal is not dying. So, the base class itself has it's abilities centered around not dying, and exploiting that not dying. Beyond that, the subclasses were so varied that I had trouble coming up with non-combat features or a specific mechanic that could be flavorfully shared between all of them. (The best one I could come up with was Fortitude) That's part of why each subclass has so many abilities.

Actually, if you want genuinely useful non-combat abilities, the subclasses should have you covered. The Ageless is mostly non-combat abilities, the Legendary has some non-combat abilities with the potential to have more custom ones added on, and the Undying, the most combat-centric of the 3, still has a utility feature in Zombieman.


Thank you so much for critiquing by the way, you helped me to see some holes in here I haven't noticed earlier! Fortitude's been slightly nerfed, Archaic Arcanum's been nerfed, and Pincushion's been nerfed, so this should be working out a little better. :smallbiggrin:

Amnoriath
2017-02-19, 11:45 PM
Personally, I can't quite see what the point would be in going to all that trouble for armor proficiency. If you're doing that, you're not getting regeneration in combat, not to mention having a high AC can actually hurt an immortal's efficacy since a fair portion of their abilities actually benefit from being hit. If you wanted to wear armor and heal up a lot between encounters, you can do that with Durable, a good medicine score, conservative spell use, and/or the right kit. Otherwise you're constantly donning and doffing your armor just to get your regeneration ability between encounters, and good luck doffing it in combat if you're low on HP. But, if it's a problem, I can make the immortal's other class abilities also require it to be unarmored.

It is definitely a very powerful ability with a good deal of controversy surrounding it, which is why I've decided to make the regeneration 1/2 the immortal's level + Constitution now, so that the optimized immortal's max is 15 instead of 25. (Though some monsters have HP regeneration to that extent...eh, whatever) But I just don't see healing to full health between encounters as that massive or gamebreaking of an ability. Very useful, very convenient, and good for preventing clerical migraines, but not really earthshattering. If I'm wrong here, I could make the regeneration combat exclusive, but then Zombieman becomes basically useless. :smalleek:



If you're talking about Dead March, Dead March is kind of just...basically an upgraded version of Relentless Endurance, or maybe 3.5's Diehard. You stay walking when you'd otherwise be dead, and then being knocked out from THAT state makes you begin dying. (Being hit still gives you automatic failure rolls when you're dying during Dead March, by the way) As for the combination of the two, taking more than, say...15 damage before your turn, that's not really all that outside of the level 1 ballpark, especially when you consider the immortal is a low AC, low mobility melee tank class. Risk is still there, about as much as one can expect playing, say, a high AC fighter or high damage barbarian. But instead of being difficult to hit, or knocking out the enemy before they even have the chance to hit you, you're letting most attackers successfully hit you and not doing all that much damage in return, but minimizing the hits you're taking.



The synergy's kind of intentional. Keep in mind a few things. You can only do this once between your turns, since it eats up a reaction. It specifies you have to be able to get within 5 feet of that ally with your movement, which means that if they're farther away than you can go, you can't do it whatsoever. Additionally, you have to choose between movement or an attack action, meaning if something ranged or spellcasting is hitting your ally from 40 or 50 feet away, you won't be able to immediately close in for melee combat. Not to mention, if it's a spell with a really nasty effect, unless you're an Undying, you're probably taking that effect.

It's definitely a good, strong ability, but it's also an ability that's reasonable for a damage sponge to have.



To be fair, Human + Fighter = 3 DR against most physical damage at level 1, and you get to have extra strength and a really high AC to boot. With that being said though...having the arrows sticking out of your body protect you from flames or the cold is a bit ridiculous. I'll change Pincushion's DR to Piercing, Bludgeoning, and Slashing damage.



As originally written, it was basically the thief's Use Magic Device with the extra bonus of Int to AC. Looking at it now, that's...probably a better idea.



Well, not dying is kind of the Immortal's thing. The entire reason a character travels down this road is to attain not dying. The capstone of this class is not dying because the end goal of any Immortal is not dying. So, the base class itself has it's abilities centered around not dying, and exploiting that not dying. Beyond that, the subclasses were so varied that I had trouble coming up with non-combat features or a specific mechanic that could be flavorfully shared between all of them. (The best one I could come up with was Fortitude) That's part of why each subclass has so many abilities.

Actually, if you want genuinely useful non-combat abilities, the subclasses should have you covered. The Ageless is mostly non-combat abilities, the Legendary has some non-combat abilities with the potential to have more custom ones added on, and the Undying, the most combat-centric of the 3, still has a utility feature in Zombieman.


Thank you so much for critiquing by the way, you helped me to see some holes in here I haven't noticed earlier! Fortitude's been slightly nerfed, Archaic Arcanum's been nerfed, and Pincushion's been nerfed, so this should be working out a little better. :smallbiggrin:

1. Hit die is calculated for a character so that they would have another self or more of reserve for the day. What yours does is ensure they have full health at the start of almost of every encounter. Seeing your recommended encounters per day are 6-8 based on that former according to developers that means your character has a reserve of 6-8 selves with d12 hit die.
2. No it is not, "If you get 3 failures, you are knocked unconscious instead of dying, and the death save counters reset and start again," by saying "instead of dying" it means is that they are stabilized because dying in 5e means they aren't dead yet and are rolling death saves. As far as I am concerned this thing says you are rolling to get out of being unconscious as long as enemies aren't stabbing you all the time. Probably not your intention.
3. No, Meat Shield specifically states you can use Eye for an Eye for free defeating your "on your turn" clause because you are doing it outside your turn. As such attack once and activate, attack once and activate,...etc.
4. Non-magical physical damage actually, but it is better now.
5. The issue I see with this class as a concept is similar to what the Fighter has to deal with. The Fighter has a couple of unique class features but all are separate and act more like supplements to the Fighter getting more of what a lot of other classes already have. As such while you could identify a Fighter it doesn't feel unique or special. While you have an interesting concept you have a smattering of abilities to make it almost unkillable and exploit it to ridiculous proportions. Conversely both the Barbarian and Paladin has some similar workings or strategies. I am not necessarily suggesting to change the capstone what I am saying is you need to make an iconic mechanic which grows and diversifies which drives home what the Immortal is about. As of now the sub-classes are doing more than just giving it source per se it is entire state of being an Immortal through out the whole campaign.
6. Honestly I hate the Undying, it is so riddled with immunities and straight up advantages on saves as well as minionmancy(more so about the unbridled limb detachment and regeneration of them). I can't see this thing being killed or taken out at all. It also has a bizarre capstone that feels rather out of place for being an undead all this time. Ageless is much better now, but your Legendary is the weakest of all of them getting 3 good ribbons, 2 magic item riders, a save and a weak charge.