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GalacticAxekick
2017-02-10, 11:22 AM
The Fighter isn't broken, strictly speaking. Powerful class with the single highest approval rating in 5e.

That said, the Fighter doesn't work for me. With too few options in and out of combat, I find it's restricted to turn after turn of "attack," improved only by the roleplayer's creativity and the DM's allowances (which both apply to all classes). The Battle Master offers a variety of new tools, but I despise the limited resource of the superiority die system. And the Eldritch Knight cheats a solution by taking a level in Wizard under the table.

With this homebrew, I hope to grant the Fighter a greater variety of out-of-combat utilities and a greater number of options in combat, mostly based on the equipment you choose to use. Though this is a work in progress (with only one subclass and an incomplete set of class features), you'll notice the biggest change are the new Eldritch Invocation inspired Martial Manoeuvres. Through these, Fighters who choose to use slashing, bludgeoning or piercing weapons, one-handed or two-handed weapons, light or heavy armour, and so forth gain new abilities entirely, rather than different sources of the same damage and the same AC. Hopefully, this will let fighters play roles other than front-line DPS: area control, defense of allies, leadership and skirmishing, for instance.

I've got it up on Homebrewery for convenience. (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/BJ5IloNre)

Let me know what I can add, remove, or remodel!

EDIT: I've written a second subclass (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/B168DbyYx) and given it a page of its own, simply so I could mention it later in this threat and link directly to it. It's considerably rougher than the Warlord, so criticisms and ideas would be appreciated!

Twelvetrees
2017-02-10, 12:00 PM
My questions about the base design:

Why did you add Investigation and Medicine to the skill list?

Why was Extra Attack moved down to 17th level and a second use of Action Surge removed?


On the Warlord:

The Warlord's Order: Sic opens up spellcasters to being able to cast more than one spell in a round. The Fighter has to use up an action, but this option allows for some very potent alpha strikes.

Warlord's Order: Deploy with the Disengage action does nothing unless the target can move on your turn as a reaction, which is extremely specific. My advice would be to remove the Disengage action as an option here.

Warlord's Rhetoric: I'm confused by this wording. Can you explain this ability? What I read right now seems to be that when two skills could apply, you make one skill check and apply any proficiency you have in those two skills.

Warlord's Disorder: Pacify and Terrify are extremely potent right now. Charm at will makes any social encounter much easier, as well as taking an enemy out of a fight. Terrify is straight-up better than Demoralize (Disadvantage on ability checks and attack rolls until it saves versus disadvantage on its next ability check or saving throw)

GalacticAxekick
2017-02-10, 12:30 PM
Why did you add Investigation and Medicine to the skill list? Because soldiers regularly practice investigation and medicine. A town guard, a tactician, a field medic and so forth should have access to these proficiencies.


Why was Extra Attack moved down to 17th level and a second use of Action Surge removed? Spellcaster cantrips are improved at 5th, 11th and 17th level. I thought it'd be reasonable to match that pace.

The extra Action Surge is removed because, between the early 4th attack and a few Martial Manoeuvres that grant additional reactions or cleaving attacks, the Fighter did not need any more damage output.


The Warlord's Order: Sic opens up spellcasters to being able to cast more than one spell in a round. The Fighter has to use up an action, but this option allows for some very potent alpha strikes. Absolutely, as intended. You're essentially trading your Fighter for a second spellcaster, with some bonuses (better armour!) and restrictions.


Warlord's Order: Deploy with the Disengage action does nothing unless the target can move on your turn as a reaction, which is extremely specific. My advice would be to remove the Disengage action as an option here. An oversight on my part. Thank you!


Warlord's Rhetoric: I'm confused by this wording. Can you explain this ability? What I read right now seems to be that when two skills could apply, you make one skill check and apply any proficiency you have in those two skills. That is essentially correct, except that one skill is always a Charisma skill, and you always use your Charisma modifier. You're just adding another relevant proficiency to your Charisma skill checks.

1d20 + Cha + Intimidation + Athletics to threaten someone with your might.
1d20 + Cha + Persuasion + Religion to convert a cultist from their faith
1d20 + Cha + Deception + History to invent a war story
1d20 + Cha + Performance + Acrobatics to tumble and delight an audience.

and so forth.


Warlord's Disorder: Pacify and Terrify are extremely potent right now. Charm at will makes any social encounter much easier, as well as taking an enemy out of a fight. Terrify is straight-up better than Demoralize (Disadvantage on ability checks and attack rolls until it saves versus disadvantage on its next ability check or saving throw). I'm actually struggling to balance the Disorder feature. Obviously it's meant to mirror Order (with a reverse rally, a Charm effect to prevent attacks and a Frighten effect to prevent movement). But I'm struggling to strike a balance in terms of the strength of the three and the feature's place in the Warlord's economy. Either Pacify and Terrify should either be weaker and a mere action, just like Order, or Demoralize should be much stronger and Disorder should have limited uses per rest. I also have yet to specify how long a creature remains Charmed/Frightened, which would depend on how the feature is developed.

Any suggestions?

Twelvetrees
2017-02-10, 01:07 PM
That is essentially correct, except that one skill is always a Charisma skill, and you always use your Charisma modifier. You're just adding another relevant proficiency to your Charisma skill checks.

1d20 + Cha + Intimidation + Athletics to threaten someone with your might.
1d20 + Cha + Persuasion + Religion to convert a cultist from their faith
1d20 + Cha + Deception + History to invent a war story
1d20 + Cha + Performance + Acrobatics to tumble and delight an audience.

and so forth.


Makes sense now, thanks.



I'm actually struggling to balance the Disorder feature. Obviously it's meant to mirror Order (with a reverse rally, a Charm effect to prevent attacks and a Frighten effect to prevent movement). But I'm struggling to strike a balance in terms of the strength of the three and the feature's place in the Warlord's economy. Either Pacify and Terrify should either be weaker and a mere action, just like Order, or Demoralize should be much stronger and Disorder should have limited uses per rest. I also have yet to specify how long a creature remains Charmed/Frightened, which would depend on how the feature is developed.

Any suggestions?

These abilities seem to parallel the Barbarian (Berserker) feature at 10th level well. I might draw from that to limit Pacify and Terrify to a similar effect, such as charmed or frightened of you and once they remove it, can't be affected by it for 24 hours. Demoralize should likely be bumped in power, but making an enemy have Disadvantage on saves is already strong. Maybe you could have it affect multiple targets?



More notes:

How do you envision the Warlord's Promotion being used in a game? The way I see it, option c would see the most use, while options a and b would see little to none.

Two-Weapon Fighting: Interesting design choice. It might boost damage at higher numbers of attacks, but until you have Extra Attack, it's likely not worth it. Also, because it is still tied to a bonus action, it incentivises taking Cavalry over infantry. Is this intentional?


Manoeuvres:

Brawler and Catapult almost beg for multiclassing with monk.

GalacticAxekick
2017-02-10, 03:01 PM
These abilities seem to parallel the Barbarian (Berserker) feature at 10th level well. I might draw from that to limit Pacify and Terrify to a similar effect, such as charmed or frightened of you and once they remove it, can't be affected by it for 24 hours. Demoralize should likely be bumped in power, but making an enemy have Disadvantage on saves is already strong. Maybe you could have it affect multiple targets?Pacify and Terrify paralleling Intimidating Presence is perfect. I could kiss you.

Demoralize affecting multiple targets is plausible. Maybe every foe within range, with the same 24 hour limitation?


How do you envision the Warlord's Promotion being used in a game? The way I see it, option c would see the most use, while options a and b would see little to none. I agree. I just wanted to apply as few restrictions as possible, in case a player found an edge case specific to their campaign.

That said, I'd love to make the various options more viable. What if it granted weapon/armour manoeuvres in addition to weapon/armour proficiencies? Or alternatively, it could be worked into the Rally, Sic and Deploy orders. "A creature you rally may use your proficiency in an ability check or saving throw." "A creature you sic may use any weapon manoeuvres you possess". "A creature you deploy may benefit from any armour manoeuvres you possess". Something like that.


Two-Weapon Fighting: Interesting design choice. It might boost damage at higher numbers of attacks, but until you have Extra Attack, it's likely not worth it. Also, because it is still tied to a bonus action, it incentivises taking Cavalry over infantry. Is this intentional? I actually ran the numbers on this, and you're approximately right. Extra Attacks have no bearing on its efficiency, since the increase the power of alternatives like einhanders and zweihanders just as much. But proficiency bonus has an immense effect.

At proficiency +2, because of the attack roll penalty, two-weapon fighting is outdamaged by einhander fighting starting at AC 12, and by zweihander fighting starting at AC 8 (yikes). It's the best choice for damaging large numbers of low AC foes, and it's second best for damaging one meaty low AC foe, but otherwise it's not practical (just like in reality)

As proficiency increases, however, the -5 penalty to hit becomes less and less of a problem. The tipping point where TWF becomes weaker than alternatives is driven up. By +6 proficiency, it outdamages einhanders until AC 19, and outdamages zweihanders until AC 17. TWF becomes the best way to deal damage unless an enemy has robust defenses, and remains the best way to damage a large number of mooks.

What's more, the Scissor manoeuvre exists purely to flip the TWF math. At +2 proficiency, Scissor outdamages einhanders starting at AC 10, and zweihanders starting at AC 16. At +6 proficiency, those numbers become 11 and 18. Scissor grants two-weapon fighters the most reliable way to damage high AC foes as well.

There's some more complex math that involves weighing damage dealt per round vs damage taken per round (which is important for judging the viability of one-handed weapons + a shield and one-handed weapons + the einhander manoeuvre), and I won't get into specifics. But broadly speaking at prof +2, TWF is superior only vs hordes, and Scissor is superior against AC 15 or more. Meanwhile, at prof +6, TWF is superior against AC 17 or less, and Scissor is superior against AC 18 or more

That said, both the standard TWF and Scissor bonus actions are, well, bonus actions. They outdamage einhanders and zweihanders, sure, but those alternatives can make up for their lacking damage with bonus actions of their own that grant strategic advantage (such as Feint, Scrutiny and Warding).


Brawler and Catapult almost beg for multiclassing with monk.You're not wrong!

Deleted
2017-02-10, 05:03 PM
First off, I don't like the Extra Attack 2, Extra Attack 3, and Action Surge class features. It messes with soooo much in the game when you try to add things in such as feats or new class features.

Though I will be the first person to say "don't pay attention to multiclassing, let the DM worry about that".

But I like the fact that you moved Extra Attack 3 to 17th level. If you are going to have the feature it certainly shouldn't be a capstone :smallannoyed: (you hear that WotC???).


With that said, I really like this!

Skills, I never understood why the fighter is supposed to be the "jack of all martials types" (soldier, town guard, gladiator, etc...) but had a narrow skill list. Skills don't break anything, they just give more chances for a character to get involved in some way and feel like they will have a meaningful impact.

Infantry and Calvary are fun little features that make the Fighter interesting without really stepping on the toes of others. Reminds me of the Paladin and Pathfinder class... Forget the name but the alternate is a Samurai (played a samurai once, with a camel mount). ASI and HD are crucial for animal companions and really don't break anything. It would take a lot for a mount to outshine a lot of 5e classes.

Warlord: Looks thematic and would only be problematic if the party specifically optimized for it to be troublesome (sic with an uber nova character).


===

Abduction: Why does it only last until the start of your next turn? I know balance wise, why, but is there an in game reason? I feel like if you have someone restrained it is easy to keep them restained than it is to actually restrain them.

Also you should add silenced to the list! Got to keep the target silent.

If maneuvers are an at-will feature then it would be fine to have it last till the end of your next turn... I guess... But it still feels weird that I would automatically lose someone out of a headlock without them even trying to struggle.

Brawler: Is the bonus shove/grapple a free action or bonus action?

Also, catapult should just be a base damage instead of a scaling damage. 1d8 + Str or something should work.

Scrutiny: Why would I ever use twf when I have this? Can you use maneuvers a certain number of times or are the at-will. I just got off work so I might be missing something :)

Terrorize: Probably should be Charisma (Intimidate) versus Wisdom (Insight). Not sure if you would want to just have them use their "passive" insight (10 + insight).

Cleave: This could just be a base rule, the DMG has "Cleaving Through Creatures" (pg 272) under actions in combat.

Twelvetrees
2017-02-10, 05:03 PM
Demoralize affecting multiple targets is plausible. Maybe every foe within range, with the same 24 hour limitation?


Looking through the Player's Handbook, the only abilities that share any similarity are the Sorcerer's Metamagic Heightened Spell, which specifies one target, the Eldritch Knight's Eldritch Strike, and the Arcane Trickster's Magical Ambush. Because each foe would get a save and Demoralize uses your action, I think this will come out about equal to Magical Ambush. Your suggestion seems reasonable.

You might want to do something about the wording concerning when the effect ends. Demoralize contradicts the general text in Disorder. And if Demoralize can target multiple targets, you should move that text from the general text for Disorder to each of the options.



I agree. I just wanted to apply as few restrictions as possible, in case a player found an edge case specific to their campaign.

That said, I'd love to make the various options more viable. What if it granted weapon/armour manoeuvres in addition to weapon/armour proficiencies? Or alternatively, it could be worked into the Rally, Sic and Deploy orders. "A creature you rally may use your proficiency in an ability check or saving throw." "A creature you sic may use any weapon manoeuvres you possess". "A creature you deploy may benefit from any armour manoeuvres you possess". Something like that.


I think you'll want to keep this ability relatively simple if you are trying to stay in line with 5e's design philosophy. It seems like you want to give some of the fighter's attributes to the target of Promotion and that should be possible, but character capabilities fluctuating in game makes things harder to keep track of. I don't have a good suggestion for this right now.

I'm a little confused about the name, too. Promotion makes me think of giving someone more responsibility, not instructing someone.



Two-Weapon Fighting information


Good to know.


More thoughts on Manoeuvres:

Dueling: Is this supposed to allow for multiple opportunity attacks on one target?

Feint: What does this do? My reading of it makes it seem as though you can turn invisible at will if your Deception beats their Perception.

Main-Gauche: Can you still attack with this weapon?

Scissor: When you say "make no bonus attack" how does this interact with Extra Attack and Two-Weapon Fighting? Your revised version gives you bonus attacks.

Scrutiny: Why would anyone Two-Weapon fight if this is an option? You can get the same number of attacks with this as you would get with Two-Weapon Fighting, but with better weapon damage dice and no penalty to attack rolls. The Ready action is not hard to trigger.

Seeker: What does Search mean? (3.5 skill?) Is this just supposed to be "You can make a Wisdom (Perception) check"?

Shield Mastery: Dodge at will? That's...strong. Really strong. Monks don't even come close to that. You seem to have taken stuff from feats for other abilities and I might do that here as well. Shove as a bonus action, maybe?

Terrorize: That's a very short duration. How does targeting work for this?

Warding: I assume you are aware of what this does when combined with Sentinel and Polearm Master?

Zweihander: What does this do? As far as I know, 5e has no weapon sizes. It'll affect lifting and carrying, which is bizarre, but I don't think that's what you were going for.

Agile Defense: That bonus could be as high as +7 (or higher!). If you are wearing Half Plate and have a Dexterity modifier of +2, your AC is 17, without anything else adding to it, like Einhander, for example. You might want to make this bonus the base AC the armor provides (and even then, if the armor is enchanted, you could still have a very high bonus).

Hardened Defense: :smalleek: This is a level 20 feature, but better. At level 3. What do you this this manoeuvre to do?

Cleave: Why would anyone want Warding when this is an option?

Skewer: See Cleave (and why is the wording different?) What does "obscured by the first" mean?




Also, what out of combat options does this rebuild of the fighter give? Rhetoric gives a few bonuses to skills, Know Your Enemy is nothing new, Disorder: Pacify might allow for Charming, and Promotion gives a little proficiency, somewhat like the cleric's Knowledge Domain.

What I see for out of combat capabilities are: Proficiency bonuses and Charm. Was that the goal?

I like fighter options and this has potential, but I personally want more out of combat abilities. I've seen a lot of fighter rebuilds that do nothing but redefine what it can do in combat.

GalacticAxekick
2017-02-10, 09:55 PM
Yo, thanks for all the positive feedback first of all! And regarding your questions/criticisms:


Abduction: Why does it only last until the start of your next turn? I know balance wise, why, but is there an in game reason? I feel like if you have someone restrained it is easy to keep them restained than it is to actually restrain them.You can think of it less as a perfect headlock or pin, more as a tightened, closer hold. It's holding someone back for 6 seconds (one round), and not totally disabling them.


Also you should add silenced to the list! Got to keep the target silent. Will do! Wonderful idea!


Brawler: Is the bonus shove/grapple a free action or bonus action? I'd written it as a free action, though in retrospect bonus would be more balanced. Noted!


Also, catapult should just be a base damage instead of a scaling damage. 1d8 + Str or something should work. That's definitely simpler, and it means you can shove someone a long way and still deal collision damage. I'll definitely consider it! Though I like the idea of spending movement for damage and building a character for devastating shoves.


Scrutiny: Why would I ever use twf when I have this? Can you use maneuvers a certain number of times or are the at-will. I just got off work so I might be missing something :) A TWF attack is guaranteed to occur. A readied attack will only occur if the trigger comes true. Readying multiple attacks, each with its own trigger, I don't think it's terrible likely you'll score them all. More then anything, this manoeuvre exists so ranged fighters can prepare rounds for the ranged equivalent of an AoO. Each attack can be readied against a different targets movement, for instance.


Terrorize: Probably should be Charisma (Intimidate) versus Wisdom (Insight). Not sure if you would want to just have them use their "passive" insight (10 + insight). Passive insight sounds reasonable



Cleave: This could just be a base rule, the DMG has "Cleaving Through Creatures" (pg 272) under actions in combat. It could, but I don't want it to be. I'd rather treat it as a martial skill than a layman's.

Also, note the opportunity attack clause.

Deleted
2017-02-10, 10:20 PM
A TWF attack is guaranteed to occur. A readied attack will only occur if the trigger comes true. Readying multiple attacks, each with its own trigger, I don't think it's terrible likely you'll score them all. More then anything, this manoeuvre exists so ranged fighters can prepare rounds for the ranged equivalent of an AoO. Each attack can be readied against a different targets movement, for instance.


Scrutiny
As a bonus action you may ready a weapon attack. If you have the Extra Attack feature, you may ready a number equal to the number of attacks you possess.


The issue here is that say you have two attacks, you can then set the trigger "that creature (being slightly specific) attempts to resist my grapple, I'll attack them". So you go and grapple the target and get your weapon attacks off because it is a contest.

Which means I don't need to pick up a feature that lets me use my bonus action to do X.

Other issues come up with spell situations. A melee expert has this and is surrounded and says "Bonus Action Ready: When I'm attacked I'll attack back." (some DMs are lax with readied actions) and then uses an action to cast a spell. Then uses action surge to attack 2+ more times again.

The character who has a racial spell, multiclass spell, spell via feat, or if you make an EK still gets their action to cast a spell and then hold off on attacking... If the target(s) don't attack the character then... That's a win for the character. This ability, as is, is pretty strong.

I don't care about multiclass balance, but this is kinda huge. Being able to Cast Spells and still get a full attack off (or negate being attacked) is really big.

Also, technically you could use your Action to Attack and then Bonus Action to ready more attacks...

I'm a big fan of reaction fighters :smallbiggrin: so I get it...But...

I'm not sure there is a way to balance this as written. You would need to say that you give up your attacks or something... This is a very strong feature, sure the reaction may not occur, but you can set it up to be advantageous that the reaction doesn't occur (not getting hit).

GalacticAxekick
2017-02-10, 10:53 PM
You might want to do something about the wording concerning when the effect ends. Demoralize contradicts the general text in Disorder. And if Demoralize can target multiple targets, you should move that text from the general text for Disorder to each of the options. I think the feature was between edits as you wrote this. In its current state, I see no contradiction.


I think you'll want to keep this ability relatively simple if you are trying to stay in line with 5e's design philosophy. It seems like you want to give some of the fighter's attributes to the target of Promotion and that should be possible, but character capabilities fluctuating in game makes things harder to keep track of. I don't have a good suggestion for this right now. Noted. I'll think of ways to simplify the feature while maintaining flavour and effectiveness.


I'm a little confused about the name, too. Promotion makes me think of giving someone more responsibility, not instructing someone. in chess, "promotion" is when a pawn learns to move as if it were a rook, bishop, knight or queen. It's inheriting the abilities of allies: precisely what the feature offers.


Dueling: Is this supposed to allow for multiple opportunity attacks on one target? Oh! The feature is artefact. I had parry (add proficiency to AC) and riposte (retaliate against a foe that misses you) reactions as manoeouvres, among other reaction-manoeuvres. Dueling would synergize. But those reactions are being considered as subclass features.


Feint: What does this do? My reading of it makes it seem as though you can turn invisible at will if your Deception beats their Perception. precisely that, until the end of your turn. More than anything, it's an unreliable way to Disengage that offers advantage on your attack rolls.


Main-Gauche: Can you still attack with this weapon? well, yes and no. You can't two-weapon-fight, because you spent your bonus action. But you could attack with the weapon alone. Why do you ask?


Scissor: When you say "make no bonus attack" how does this interact with Extra Attack and Two-Weapon Fighting? Your revised version gives you bonus attacks. With TWF, each Attack action attack is coupled with a bonus action attack, and both of these take a -5 penalty.

When you choose to scissor, you decide not to couple one Attack action attack with a bonus action attack, and instead give it a +5 bonus.

You can decide this individually for each attack.


Scrutiny: Why would anyone Two-Weapon fight if this is an option? You can get the same number of attacks with this as you would get with Two-Weapon Fighting, but with better weapon damage dice and no penalty to attack rolls. The Ready action is not hard to trigger. but it should be hard to trigger several times. Perhaps I was unclear, but each attacks triggered separately. In melee at least, I can see this being less reliable than TWF. It exists mostly to let ranged fighters lock on to several targets and fire on reaction.


Seeker: What does Search mean? (3.5 skill?) Is this just supposed to be "You can make a Wisdom (Perception) check"? or Intelligence (Investigation), but yes.


Shield Mastery: Dodge at will? That's...strong. Really strong. Monks don't even come close to that. You seem to have taken stuff from feats for other abilities and I might do that here as well. Shove as a bonus action, maybe? I find the shove bonus action terribly underwhelming, and I'd rather the manoeuvre offer defensive tools. What might replace the dodge option?


Terrorize: That's a very short duration. How does targeting work for this? like a stealth check, it effects every foe that can see you. Fear disadvantages ability checks, meaning for the duration of your turn you can shove, grapple, and disarm with ease. Initially this was going to be a zweihander manoeuvre stimulating the shock of a charge, but i decided later to leave it open to all builds.


Warding: I assume you are aware of what this does when combined with Sentinel and Polearm Master? Feats being optional, Sentinel is not a concern. Polearm master lives on through the "Skewer" manouevre, however, and the synergy is intended.


Zweihander: What does this do? As far as I know, 5e has no weapon sizes. It'll affect lifting and carrying, which is bizarre, but I don't think that's what you were going for. Larger space occupied more than anything. Area control.


Agile Defense: That bonus could be as high as +7 (or higher!). If you are wearing Half Plate and have a Dexterity modifier of +2, your AC is 17, without anything else adding to it, like Einhander, for example. You might want to make this bonus the base AC the armor provides (and even then, if the armor is enchanted, you could still have a very high bonus). I intended for this to offer exactly such bonuses, essentially offering Fighters a back door into Dex save proficiency. The +9 of half plate/studded leather, a shield and Dex approaches but doesn't surpass the +11 of proficiency and Dex.


Hardened Defense: :smalleek: This is a level 20 feature, but better. At level 3. What do you this this manoeuvre to do? is it a level 20 feature? What would you recommend instead?


Cleave: Why would anyone want Warding when this is an option? Warding offers extra reactions. Cleave offers a new way to use one.


Skewer: See Cleave (and why is the wording different?) What does "obscured by the first" mean?The wording is different because the effect is different. Cleave affects adjacent, equidistant enemies. Skewer affects an enemy and another behind it (relative to you)


Also, what out of combat options does this rebuild of the fighter give? Rhetoric gives a few bonuses to skills, Know Your Enemy is nothing new, Disorder: Pacify might allow for Charming, and Promotion gives a little proficiency, somewhat like the cleric's Knowledge Domain.

What I see for out of combat capabilities are: Proficiency bonuses and Charm. Was that the goal? Essentially, yes, and potentially more from manoeuvres.


I like fighter options and this has potential, but I personally want more out of combat abilities. I've seen a lot of fighter rebuilds that do nothing but redefine what it can do in combat. Thats fair! What would you recommend?

GalacticAxekick
2017-02-10, 10:54 PM
Scrutiny
As a bonus action you may ready a weapon attack. If you have the Extra Attack feature, you may ready a number equal to the number of attacks you possess.


The issue here is that say you have two attacks, you can then set the trigger "that creature (being slightly specific) attempts to resist my grapple, I'll attack them". So you go and grapple the target and get your weapon attacks off because it is a contest.

Which means I don't need to pick up a feature that lets me use my bonus action to do X.

Other issues come up with spell situations. A melee expert has this and is surrounded and says "Bonus Action Ready: When I'm attacked I'll attack back." (some DMs are lax with readied actions) and then uses an action to cast a spell. Then uses action surge to attack 2+ more times again.

The character who has a racial spell, multiclass spell, spell via feat, or if you make an EK still gets their action to cast a spell and then hold off on attacking... If the target(s) don't attack the character then... That's a win for the character. This ability, as is, is pretty strong.

I don't care about multiclass balance, but this is kinda huge. Being able to Cast Spells and still get a full attack off (or negate being attacked) is really big.

Also, technically you could use your Action to Attack and then Bonus Action to ready more attacks...

I'm a big fan of reaction fighters :smallbiggrin: so I get it...But...

I'm not sure there is a way to balance this as written. You would need to say that you give up your attacks or something... This is a very strong feature, sure the reaction may not occur, but you can set it up to be advantageous that the reaction doesn't occur (not getting hit).
Noted! I'll rewrite the feature to be more limited and/or more costly

GalacticAxekick
2017-02-11, 05:40 PM
I've made some edits in response to feedback! Thanks so much! But on another note I'm not sure what the second (and third?) subclass(es?) should be!

The Warlord works just as well as two-weapon fighter, archer, fencer or pikeman, for instance, because none of its features presuppose a bonus action, melee range, Strength or Dexterity. The Warlord works fine regardless of armour weight too. The subclass welcomes all builds.

The same should be true for any more subclasses I write, which probably means (like the Warlord) they'll be tied to mental stats rather than physical stats. At the moment, I'm trying to imagine an Int-based Fighter and a Wis-Based Fighter, with little luck. But I'm open to ideas!

Twelvetrees
2017-02-12, 12:06 AM
As an aside, I think your editing process on the Martial Manoeuvres (Weapon & Shield) page caused some issues. I can no longer see half of them.



I think the feature was between edits as you wrote this. In its current state, I see no contradiction.


Ah. That would make sense.



well, yes and no. You can't two-weapon-fight, because you spent your bonus action. But you could attack with the weapon alone. Why do you ask?

Curiosity on my part. It appears it can be used with both Einhander (which I assume is intended) and Brawler (maybe? Unarmed strikes are weird).



but it should be hard to trigger several times. Perhaps I was unclear, but each attacks triggered separately. In melee at least, I can see this being less reliable than TWF. It exists mostly to let ranged fighters lock on to several targets and fire on reaction.

I can't see Scrutiny right now, but even if each attack is triggered separately, there is no rule against having them all triggered by the same event (yes, it's cheesy, but there is nothing against it).



I find the shove bonus action terribly underwhelming, and I'd rather the manoeuvre offer defensive tools. What might replace the dodge option?

Perhaps it could provide a weaker version of the dodge option, such as only imposing Disadvantage on the next attack roll against you?



I intended for this to offer exactly such bonuses, essentially offering Fighters a back door into Dex save proficiency. The +9 of half plate/studded leather, a shield and Dex approaches but doesn't surpass the +11 of proficiency and Dex.

I can see where this is coming from now. My thoughts concerning homebrew are usually that feats and multiclassing are allowed, both of which would allow proficiency in Dexterity saves and make this a little too powerful.



is it a level 20 feature? What would you recommend instead?

Upon looking again, it is a 17th level feature of War Clerics, but only against nonmagical damage. If you aren't using feats, I would suggest something like the benefit Heavy Armor Master gives.



Warding offers extra reactions. Cleave offers a new way to use one.

The wording had me confused. Cleave's use of "whenever" made me think it gave more than one opportunity attack.



The wording is different because the effect is different. Cleave affects adjacent, equidistant enemies. Skewer affects an enemy and another behind it (relative to you)

Let me clarify. Why aren't these parts identical? Ignore the difference in slashing and piercing, of course.

"In addition, you can make an opportunity attack with a slashing weapon whenever a hostile creature that you can see moves within your reach."

and

"In addition, you can make an opportunity attack with a piercing weapon whenever a hostile creature that you can see attempts to enter your reach."

The first implies that they are allowed to move, while the second seems to imply that you could stop them.



Thats fair! What would you recommend?

General categories for out of combat capabilities: Modification to skill use, improvements/changes to movement, information gathering, and altering the environment or oneself.

You have some of the first already, but the last three are something fighters have little to no ability to do. Know Your Enemy being the only exception. You could add movement capabilities, because the fighter is the only class that doesn't have movement modifications. And Remarkable Athlete or using Action Surge for movement don't count. I'm unsure how to go about implementing information gathering and altering the environment or oneself without pushing the bounds of mundane ability.

How different do you see fighters from regular soldiers? In your opinion, are they capable of superhuman feats?

GalacticAxekick
2017-02-12, 03:36 AM
As an aside, I think your editing process on the Martial Manoeuvres (Weapon & Shield) page caused some issues. I can no longer see half of them.
Odd. I've looked at both the source page and share page and see no issue. Are the manoeuvres still hidden?


Curiosity on my part. It appears it can be used with both Einhander (which I assume is intended) and Brawler (maybe? Unarmed strikes are weird). That'd be correct! The math behind Einhander presupposes you're optimizing with a 1d8 weapon. Taking a 1d6 (light) weapon and an additional +2 to AC gives you're pretty impressive AC, but that's costing you damage.

Main-Gauche and Scissor exist primarily to make TWF more versatile (it's a good tactic against low AC foes by default, and these manoeuvres make it useful defensively and against high AC respectively), but I love anything that can be used outside it's face purpose, so the Einhander workaround is cute to me.


I can't see Scrutiny right now, but even if each attack is triggered separately, there is no rule against having them all triggered by the same event (yes, it's cheesy, but there is nothing against it).Noted! I've rewritten Scrutiny so it's more limited to its intended purpose: area control, especially for ranged weapons. "On your turn you may select a creature, object or space you can see as your watch. You may used a ranged or thrown weapon to make opportunity attacks on your watch's behalf."


Perhaps it could provide a weaker version of the dodge option, such as only imposing Disadvantage on the next attack roll against you?That's definitely more balanced, though it'll become underwhelming at higher levels as Extra/multiattacks become standard issue.


I can see where this is coming from now. My thoughts concerning homebrew are usually that feats and multiclassing are allowed, both of which would allow proficiency in Dexterity saves and make this a little too powerful. That makes sense! I'll rewrite the manoeuvre so that it replaces all bonuses to your Dex save: proficiency and ability. This still grants Fighters that coveted +9 save bonus, and it offers that bonus to any class that multiclasses Fighter, but for classes with Dex save proficiency, there's no stacking.


Upon looking again, it is a 17th level feature of War Clerics, but only against nonmagical damage. If you aren't using feats, I would suggest something like the benefit Heavy Armor Master gives. That's reasonable! Edited accordingly.


The wording had me confused. Cleave's use of "whenever" made me think it gave more than one opportunity attack. I'll work on less ambiguous phrasing. Thanks!


Let me clarify. Why aren't these parts identical? Ignore the difference in slashing and piercing, of course.

"In addition, you can make an opportunity attack with a slashing weapon whenever a hostile creature that you can see moves within your reach."

and

"In addition, you can make an opportunity attack with a piercing weapon whenever a hostile creature that you can see attempts to enter your reach."

The first implies that they are allowed to move, while the second seems to imply that you could stop them Oh! No real reason. I'll rephrase that as "a hostile creature that you can see enters your reach".


General categories for out of combat capabilities: Modification to skill use, improvements/changes to movement, information gathering, and altering the environment or oneself.

You have some of the first already, but the last three are something fighters have little to no ability to do. Know Your Enemy being the only exception. You could add movement capabilities, because the fighter is the only class that doesn't have movement modifications. And Remarkable Athlete or using Action Surge for movement don't count. I'm unsure how to go about implementing information gathering and altering the environment or oneself without pushing the bounds of mundane ability.Wonderful breakdown! I'll try to jot down some ideas for each category:

New mobility: I don't think climb or swim speeds would be appropriate as a class or subclass feature, since not all fighters, nor all Warlords, can be expected to climb or swim terribly fast. But these speeds should definitely be available (for sailors, siege experts, any particularly skilled athlete). Right now the Athleticism manoeuvre offers them:

"You gain a swimming speed equal to your base speed. You gain a climbing speed equal to your base speed. You may make a DC 10 Dexterity saving throw to halve the damage you take from a fall. You may only benefit from this if you are wearing medium, light or no armour."

Other mobility options to consider would be immunity to difficult terrain, crawling speed, and jumping with reduced/no running start. Again, these are far from universal among fighters and would probably be manoeuvres. But they could be very interesting manoeuvres, especially if coupled with minor combat uses. "You may ignore difficult terrain, such as uneven land or occupied spaces, and you may move through the spaces of hostile creatures". Or "Your jump height and distance are doubled. Attacks against you have disadvantage while you are airborne." I'd love to hear your own ideas.

Information gathering: It's difficult to come up with techniques for information gathering that a Fighter and only a Fighter would possess. Sizing up the martial abilities of others was a fantastic idea on WotC's part, but what is there beyond that?

Maybe heightened cognizance of some kind? Say, the Fighter can use their reaction to scrutinize their surroundings incredibly thoroughly. They can anticipate where someone intends to flee though they've only just begun moving, and they can intercept immediately. They can examine a trap's mechanism within a split-second of tripping it, and they can throw a wrench in it accordingly. They can spot an arrow in flight and raise their guard against it.

Extreme, but I can't think of much. Ideas are welcome!

Altering the environment/oneself:Being martial, there isn't a lot a Fighter can do to manipulate the environment outside of physically moving things about. Similarly, there isn't a lot a Fighter can do to transform themselves besides changing stances or maybe some change of mental state (see: Rage).

Change in mental state came up a bit with information gathering, but there are other approaches to that. Stepping on the Barbarian's toes a bit, we could have a state of heightened performance that more or less consumes the Fighter's focus. That could be improved speed, jump distance, Strength/Dexterity checks, etc coupled with a penalty such, interdiction of intelligence checks/spellcasting, inability to comprehend or produce speech, fatigue. Or that could be heightened passive investigation/perception/insight, immunity to surprise, some bonuses to reactions, etc coupled with penalties to speed, loss of actions, fatigue.

Deleted
2017-02-12, 09:19 PM
I've made some edits in response to feedback! Thanks so much! But on another note I'm not sure what the second (and third?) subclass(es?) should be!

The Warlord works just as well as two-weapon fighter, archer, fencer or pikeman, for instance, because none of its features presuppose a bonus action, melee range, Strength or Dexterity. The Warlord works fine regardless of armour weight too. The subclass welcomes all builds.

The same should be true for any more subclasses I write, which probably means (like the Warlord) they'll be tied to mental stats rather than physical stats. At the moment, I'm trying to imagine an Int-based Fighter and a Wis-Based Fighter, with little luck. But I'm open to ideas!

Subclass ideas...

Crusader (Cha): Spell-less paladin, gives enemies a reason to attack him, while being able to resist damage.

Gladiator (Int, Wis, or Cha): Specializes in using one handed weapon and dual wielding a net.

Samurai (Wis or Cha): Focuses on quick draw abilities and fear.

Bomber (Int): Expert with thrown weapons, can make use of a "grenade kit" which has X number of uses to make bombs.



===

Scrutiny
On your turn you may select a creature, object or space you can see as your watch. You may used a ranged or thrown weapon to make opportunity attacks on your watch's behalf.

Because spaces and objects don't get OA in the first place, you wouldn't get an OA on behalf of an object or space... So how about this.

Scrutiny
On your turn you may select a creature, object, or point in space that you can see. You may used a ranged or thrown weapon to make opportunity attacks if a creature moves 5' away from the creature, object, or point in space without using the disengage action.

GalacticAxekick
2017-02-12, 09:34 PM
Subclass ideas... Before I even give these a look, thanks for the input! I really appreciate it.


Crusader (Cha): Spell-less paladin, gives enemies a reason to attack him, while being able to resist damage.Conceivable! I don't want to restrict build too much—the Warlord works with any set of equipment, and the other subclasses should too—so I don't know if I'll make it as tanky as the Paladin, but a Cha-based subclass that uses conviction to buff enhance their performance sounds doable!

We could probably squeeze some social/exploration features out of the enhanced willpower and determination, which is important, since manoeuvres offer a lot of combat ability and it's up to subclass to round everything else out.


Gladiator (Int, Wis, or Cha): Specializes in using one handed weapon and dual wielding a net. Again, I want to avoid prescribing a build with the subclass, so I dunno about the net or one-handed weapon specialties. But the gladiator's emphasis on performance sounds promising: uniting the party by example rather than the Warlord's instruction.

Again, I see nice social opportunities in this, and maybe some degree of exploration.


Samurai (Wis or Cha): Focuses on quick draw abilities and fear. Tricky. Fear feels like something most Fighters would have access too, and even the Warlord here has the power to cause it. Quick draw is much more unique, and could play into some interesting reactions or initiative rolls, but it'll take a stretch of imagination to build social/exploration features off it. Maybe something based on heightened perceptions? Definitely Wis.


Bomber (Int): Expert with thrown weapons, can make use of a "grenade kit" which has X number of uses to make bombs. Trickier! A grenade kit would change the Fighter quite a bit, not that that's a bad thing, but just that I'll have to do some brainstorming to see how that'd play out. Not much in the way of social abilities here, too, though an emphasis on tinkering and sabotage does lend to exploration abilities!


Scrutiny
On your turn you may select a creature, object or space you can see as your watch. You may used a ranged or thrown weapon to make opportunity attacks on your watch's behalf.

Because spaces and objects don't get OA in the first place, you wouldn't get an OA on behalf of an object or space... So how about this.

Scrutiny
On your turn you may select a creature, object, or point in space that you can see. You may used a ranged or thrown weapon to make opportunity attacks if a creature moves 5' away from the creature, object, or point in space without using the disengage action. You're right to point out spaces and objects don't get OA and that my phrasing wasn't reasonable; thanks! But I specifically wanted to avoid saying "if a creature moves 5 feet away from your watch," or anything to that effect. The Cleave and Skewer manoeuvres allow opportunity attacks if a creature moves within/into range, and I want those to apply to Scrutiny as well. I phrased it the way I did so you would treat your watch's "reach" as your own, whatever that entails.

How about this: On your turn you may select a creature, object, or point in space that you can see as your watch. You treat spaces within 5 feet of your watch as your reach, for the purpose of triggering opportunity attacks, and you may used a ranged or thrown weapon to make opportunity attacks.

Twelvetrees
2017-02-12, 11:17 PM
Odd. I've looked at both the source page and share page and see no issue. Are the manoeuvres still hidden?

I still can't see them unless I go to the source code. I'm not too familiar with how Homebrewery works, but I've done some experimenting. If I take the source code for that page and put it in Homebrewery, I still see the maneouvres shifted over. It appears if you have enough text in the first column that it starts a new one automatically, because I can delete the last word from Scissor and everything shifts back over.

Does that help?


\page
<div class='wide'>
## Martial Manoeuvres (Weapon & Shield)</div>

#### Abduction
As a bonus action you may Blind, Deafen, Restrain or silence a creature you have successfully grappled until the start of your next turn or until they escape your grapple.

#### Brawler
Your unarmed strike is a light finesse weapon. When you engage in two-weapon-fighting with your unarmed strike, you may shove or grapple rather than attack, and at no penalty.

#### Catapult
When you successfully shove a creature, you may subtract a number of feet from your speed and add half of them to the distance you push your target.

A shoved creature that collides with an obstacle takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage for every 10 feet it could not move. Any effect that would reduce falling damage can reduce this damage as well.

###

#### Dueling
*Prerequisite: the Extra Attack feature*

As a bonus action you may mark one creature you can see. Before the start of your next turn, you may make a number of reactions equal to the number of attacks you possess, however you may not react to any creature except your mark.

#### Einhander
When you wield a melee weapon in one hand and nothing on the other, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and to damage rolls.

#### Feint
As a bonus action you may feint, misdirecting creatures on the opposing side until the end of your turn. To determine whether such a creature can see you, the DM compares your Charisma (Deception) check with that creature’s passive Wisdom (Perception) score.

###

#### Main-Gauche
As a Bonus Action, you may lift a light melee weapon into a parrying stance. Until the start of your next turn, the weapon counts also as a shield, and as such grants +2 AC.

As usual, you may benefit from only one shield at a time.

#### One-Two
When you wield light melee weapons in both hands and a creature provokes your opportunity attack, you may use two-weapon fighting and strike twice.

If you gain other reactions that rely on your melee weapon, such as the Parry and Riposte reactions, you may use them in succession.
#### Scissor
When you wield light melee weapons in both hands, you may use one to align the strikes of the other. When you take the two-weapon fighting bonus action, you may instead gain a +5 bonus to your weapon attack roll, but make no bonus attack.

If you have the Extra Attack feature, you may alternate between this effect and the effect of normal two-weapon fighting.

```
```

#### Scrutiny
On your turn you may select a creature, object or space you can see as your watch. You may used a ranged or
thrown weapon to make opportunity attacks on your watch's behalf.

#### Seeker
You may Search as a bonus action. If the result is higher than your passive Perception, you may treat it as your passive Perception until the start of your next turn.

#### Sharpshooter
When using a ranged or thrown weapon, attacking at long range doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged weapon attack rolls, and your ranged weapon attacks ignore half cover and three-quarters cover.

###

#### Shelter
When you are not incapacitated, your shield protects you from certain effects.

When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take reduced damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail.

In addition, when you are not incapacitated, you are a source of total cover to targets of your size or smaller.

#### Shield Mastery
When you are equiped with a shield, you may Dodge or Disengage as a bonus action.

###

#### Terrorize
As a bonus action you may threaten and dishearten your enemies until the end of your turn. To determine whether such a creature is frightened, the DM compares your Charisma (Intimidation) check with that creature’s passive Wisdom (Perception) score.

#### Warding
*Prerequisite: the Extra Attack feature*

As a bonus action you may brace yourself. Until the start of your next turn, you may make a number of reactions equal to the number of attacks you possess, however you may only react once per turn.

#### Zweihander
When you wield a single melee weapon in both hands, you may treat yourself as being one size category larger.




That'd be correct! The math behind Einhander presupposes you're optimizing with a 1d8 weapon. Taking a 1d6 (light) weapon and an additional +2 to AC gives you're pretty impressive AC, but that's costing you damage.

Main-Gauche and Scissor exist primarily to make TWF more versatile (it's a good tactic against low AC foes by default, and these manoeuvres make it useful defensively and against high AC respectively), but I love anything that can be used outside it's face purpose, so the Einhander workaround is cute to me.

Good to know. And let me rephrase my question with how Main-Gauche and Brawler work. Put together, can you use your bare hand as a shield?



...Athleticism...

I had forgotten about Athleticism, but as a manoeuvre, only some characters will have it. Still, it does change movement. Some ideas for how else the Fighter could change movement: Enable their party to travel overland for a longer period of time before having to make Constitution checks against Exhaustion, move at full speed with a Grappled creature, and the ways you mentioned.

I will try to post other ideas for information gathering and altering the environment/oneself later.

GalacticAxekick
2017-02-12, 11:58 PM
I still can't see them unless I go to the source code. I'm not too familiar with how Homebrewery works, but I've done some experimenting. If I take the source code for that page and put it in Homebrewery, I still see the maneouvres shifted over. It appears if you have enough text in the first column that it starts a new one automatically, because I can delete the last word from Scissor and everything shifts back over.

Does that help?It does! I get that problem if I set the page to 110% or 90% zoom in Chrome, rather than 100%. I can fix the problem by going from 90% to 100%.


Good to know. And let me rephrase my question with how Main-Gauche and Brawler work. Put together, can you use your bare hand as a shield? That synergy was not, in fact, intended! I can see why the Martial Arts feature is phrased so carefully (never calling your unarmed strike a finesse or light weapon, but giving it them same properties). That said, I'm not sure this is game-breaking: just odd. Especially when shield-based manoeuvres get involved. Watch as I withstand a red dragon's breath using only my bare hands!

I may go back an edit Main-Gauche so that rather than counting as a true shield, the light weapon provides a +1 bonus to AC.


I had forgotten about Athleticism, but as a manoeuvre, only some characters will have it. Still, it does change movement. Some ideas for how else the Fighter could change movement: Enable their party to travel overland for a longer period of time before having to make Constitution checks against Exhaustion, move at full speed with a Grappled creature, and the ways you mentioned.

I will try to post other ideas for information gathering and altering the environment/oneself later.Solid ideas! Thanks!

GalacticAxekick
2017-02-14, 11:32 PM
I've created http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/B168DbyYx a second subclass, simply named "the Warrior" for now to contrast it against the Warlord. It is, of course, a rough product in dire need of criticism and fresh idea. My greatest concerns are the 3rd and 7th level abilities, in terms of clarity and usefulness, but the 10th is also underwhelming IMO.

The 15th level ability conflicts with the Backswing, Cleave and Skewer manoeuvres as they're written (for now), but they can of course be rewritten to focus on their opportunity attack effects.